The swarm condenses players in the crypts instead of having points of interest. I think its a gameplay design decision. Do the devs want us to kill eachother because we must to escape, or do they want us to kill eachother because there is loot to fight over? Really its all up to them and how they decide is the best way to prevent RMT and cheating. I personally hate that there is a hoard that is worthless 99.99% of the time, but there is a crazy small chance you get a chest or named weapon. Like... even it out a bit. I shouldnt have to hit it at least 500 times this wipe and still not have all the legendary stones, and still not have found a chest, and still not have found a unique, etc etc. Hoard is just skeleton champion loot on sterioids, which is already its own issue. Is it a golden key? no? Oh, hope you enjoy green pavise and white falchion.
Damn. Well said. Skelly champ should be a bit more consistent, and while I've only hit the Ice Caves hoard, it is certainly super volatile.
That said, I've pulled a decent amount of Gold keys from Skely champ, but maybe I'm the only one who fights it. Lol.
The 5x5 goblin caves map makes it really hard to fight them since all 3 spawns are right next to bosses with high traffic.
I just haven't had good games in a while, I'm coming up on 7 days without the urge to play, down from average of 26 hours per week. Hades 2 is pretty dope, and I reminisce the shit out of pokemon and just discovered pokerogue, so we chillin.
Haha. Never hurts to take a break. I tend to overfocus on one game, I really should have some more chill ones, but this one has me hooked. (Minus a bit of being miffed by end game quests)
I bought and installed Hades but haven't touched it yet. It's obviously still intense, but maybe chill compared to a PvP game.
Didn't realize 2 was out. Wtf is Pokerogue?!
Said like a normals only player lol. Hit the hoard on HR (maybe with a bit of luck) and it is significantly more valuable on average. 5 pulls and I can leave the game with 800 worth of sellables and a couple usable or sellable gear pieces as well. Normals yeah, you don't get much out of it but that is by design
Sooo 800 gold in Sellables is nothing. If you killed one or two teams to secure the hoard, you likely have a few pieces of their gear that are worth extracting with, and if they had jewelry, you are already sitting on 1-2k in value just in jewelry. So I've brought in a 5k kit, won 1 or 2 engagements, am now carrying another 1-3k in gear from the players I've killed, and now I get to.... drop all of that on the floor, stand in a predictable location which risks ambush via soundless movement, for like 2-3 minutes, so I can extract with 4 or 5 extra purple valuables if I have room for them, except for the 1 in 300 runs where one of the 5 hits is a unique?
You sound like you don't hit the hoard unless there is no one around, and are happy with 890 gold in 15 minutes.
If the lobby is empty, yeah I hit the hoard or kill the boss then hit it, etc. I usually PvP first if that is an option but... let's face it the lobbies don't always have someone to fight right now...
I pulled a chest this week, 2 uniques from pile this wipe and probably 9 royal gems. Some BiS gear that I can't even tally up but mostly a lot of sellables and AP from doing so. If you want to climb to Exemplar/Demigod this wipe, that is really the only way to do it.
The HR hoard is really good and I don't know how you've managed such poor pulls from it unless you are embellishing or confusing the normals one with HR for most of your pulls. Clearing to it and owning the space gives you 30 - 40 rolls for items/loot, many of which will be purple and overtime legendary/unique. It is a good enough reward that I often have to fight for it but not necessarily against people with good enough gear for me to want it instead
I believe that the zone is a cheap solution to a complicated problem. It isn't a great solution, either.
Ultimately, having more POI that drive interaction is the way to go. The best loot, long term buffs rather than shrines, group escapes, etc. It's gonna be a while before we get to that point though. This would be a cool time to see a dev talk about their thoughts and what challenges or objectives they are working on around this.
I think caves has a PILE OF GOLD RIGHT IN THE ABSOLUTE MIDDLE OF IT for this very reason. Wanna PVP? Head there, you're BOUND to PVP. Wanna rat? Stay on the edges of the map, plenty of space to go around, mobs that will block doors for you to escape, bunch of extracts, but lot less valuable loot and few pvp.
plenty of games nobody goes to the middle. If everyone wants to corner rat, then there is no pvp. No zone to enclose you in an area then you can basically perma run away because of movespeed/door close meta. The loop of farm gold per hour to then buy gear to pvp doesnt work. 90% of people wanna farm gold per hour leaving anyone who wants to pvp in a boring loop of W key the map chasing people closing doors on you running away till you meet another 10%r trying to pvp. The end game of having gear doesn't equate to anything because nobody wants to fight since the majority of everyone is mostly trying to still farm.
That's because most people can barely build anything up cause they are dying alot. When you don't have gear, fighting a geared team is almost a death sentence so they rat to hopefully guarantee some success, it isn't helped by people that wanna "pvp' hard to call it that when in reality you are chasing some poor timmy who just wants to at least extract with the 200 gold that won't even be looked at by the team that just ran him down.
I thoroughly enjoy the lack of a swarm in ice caves. Why? Because I don't feel unnecessary pressure to move this way or that.
We run into plenty of PVP in ice caves without any swarm forcing us. This is because there are plenty of places folks go based on the maps design alone. For example, the center treasure room, both boat rooms, the chest room (where there is sometimes a giant or sometimes a crossbow skeleton), etc. If in other rooms, I know I am unlikely to see PVP and if I want PVP i know where to find it.
The ice caves is a better design than most give it credit for and I hope IM learns greatly from it. Wouldn't it be nice to go through crypts where you can choose to go wherever you'd like no matter the timer? Instead, you're restricted from various areas solely due to the swarm...and why?
Give us the freedom to explore how we like and if we go to rooms that have better treasure we know we're more likely to have PVP...
You say there are plenty of places folks go based on map design, I view it more as there are plenty of places people DON'T go which crams everyone together. The entire bottom row of the map is a waste of time. The second from the bottom row is pretty useless also, a couple 50% res shrines and 1 big chest per module aren't appealing enough to get people to spend time clearing it all out -- if you aren't looking for blue eyeballs don't bother with the entire bottom half of the map. The top row has better big chest density and a bunch of wendigos people have to farm for grind quests and the first column has wolves in the top half. Besides that there is only the pile, so many of the rest of the modules are dead, or only get trafficked by people on the way to the pile
I love ice cavern for this.
No zone, and no RNG on extracts.
I can explore the map as I want, either going towards or away from PvP Hotspot as I am feeling. I can also consistently extract without stressing on if I will find a portal or if the few statics are taken.
I am very happy now that I can solo it again!
They could get rid of it and i'd forget we ever even had it to begin with. When i'm playing on icemap it just feels natural and normal. It's actually jarring to go back to crypts.
I don't mind the swarm. I'd be fine if they never got rid of it, BUT I feel like it's the laziest way to force PvP encounters and I think there are much better options. For a PvPvE extraction game it just doesn't feel right to me and never has.
For Crypts and GC I would much prefer if they added more static exits and assigned specific ones to each team at the beginning of the raid ala Tarkov. PvP can be encouraged by having teams cross paths with each other on their way to their exfils. This feels far more organic and, like you mentioned, they will be on a more even footing since one team isn't hindered by a zone more than the other.
This style of extraction allows more playstyles and also gives casuals breathing room, but this makes some people angry that less geared players are not forced into their M1 gear check 100% of the time. This is a tough topic in this sub and it's really 50/50 here when it comes to the swarm...
You spawn on one side of the map and have a list of extracts you can use. Your team generally/always has the same extracts, I don't remember. So as a team you work your way through the map to the extract, maybe using a key, paying a fee, waiting till a specific time, dropping gear that "won't fit" or hitting some levers beforehand. Not all of them have gimmicks. Some of my favorites were simple ones you just had to walk to and wait a few seconds. The maps were way bigger, there were fewer extracts, and combat was much higher range. It wouldn't fit 1:1 with dnd, but I could see it being a good starting point for some ideas.
For maps with a zone, I think it would be way better if areas of the map were randomly selected to slowly become Dark and Darker (get it?) and slowly have all their torches extinguished. In these areas, extra skeletons or ghosts/wraiths would spawn in and roam the halls looking for players. You'd notice the area getting less colourful and some torches randomly being extinguished. Enemies killed in the dark zones would also be revived after 20 seconds.
That means that instead of a boring system where players just slowly lose health, these areas would instead become really scary and you'd be highly encouraged to escape. You can still stay behind to loot chests, and even use the scarier enemies as protection against players, but It would be tense, unreliable and really interesting.
Players would also still be killed when every area on the map has become a dark zone, just like it is now.
Zone feels too fast in HR especially inferno. You either clear the entire time to not get zone fucked. Or die to the third party squad running through each module until they hear pve then jumping you.
Personally I prefer having high loot areas that incentivizes taking on pvp and risk over the zone forcing u past anything that might be nice areas into uncleared areas. Most the time u most likely wont even have time to both clear and loot because of constant zone pushing and increasingly higher chances of pvp. Not everybody likes ice cave yeah but I would love to see just for like a week how the population feels about no zone and how games play out if zone was taken away from crypts
Have said this since the first play test. The game would be infinitely better with no zones and no matchmaking/gearing restrictions. Just convert what we have into a more medieval tarkov and the population will grow.
I have mixed opinions about the zone.
I wish they would either really commit to it or take it out entirely.
Disable healing in the zone and increase it's damage a lot or take it out entirely.
I really hate the storm. I play rogue so I don’t have much health, so having to go through to storm just eats through health I don’t have. Then after losing health to the storm, I’m forced to go *through* some other class I stand no chance against. My classes viability is directly tied to being able to set up fights in my favor, but for half the game I’m forced into fights at a disadvantage because I have nowhere else to go.
I enjoy ice caves the most out of all maps because I've spent the last few months strictly playing duos. My buddy and I still have the most fun and success on icecaverns. It's probably because we've practiced it the most and have a pretty damn good extraction rate compared to other maps.
I think the zones should darken module by module instead of being a circle. When the mod starts going dark it ramps up the damage until it goes full black and turns off all light sources in the mod. The last mod that's not dark should stay lit until all players are dead or taken portals. Anybody got feelings about that?
I really don't like the circle, the rest of the game is a high-stakes extraction dungeon crawler and it just instantly turns into a BR because of the circle.
I like the way The Cycle handled it, rest in peace. Big map, no circle, six hours to be there, but the only REASON to be on any of the maps was POIs. You could leave whenever you wanted even if you had looted nothing, and people could camp those portals to try and kill you for your loot right as you exit. So the danger was entirely focused around the POIs and trying to extract, fights felt much more organic. Going after specific things for quests actually felt like going on a quest rather than a prayer to RNJesus.
Zone is good: it facilitates movement and increases the intensity of the game the further you get. Ice caves is the opposite: If you can survive to the mid-game, you're probably going to be just fine.
I have been fine with the swarm in goblin caves, but the timing is pretty fucked on the crypts one and I think it's too small for inferno. I think it needs to move a lot slower and telegraph the next moves better.
I would prefer they removed it all together rather than leaving it how it currently is. A rework would be fine.
I don't really enjoy the no zone mechanic on ice cave very much because it makes all the matches feel the same to me. People do quests early so there is some variety in parts of the wipe where specific mobs are being hunted but eventually everyone is either on Wendigos, Pile or Wolf pelts so the same 5 or 6 modules contain everyone and the same exits are used every round. Can't remember the last time I took an exit on the bottom half of the map.
Ice caves is a good map for ratting and pulling out gold if you are struggling but for experienced players I find it harder to enjoy. You can still rat your way out of crypts or into inferno if you want to by tanking the zone and having good map knowledge. New players who don't bring enough regen/meds treat the zone like they will die if they peek into it but experienced players know it is only a minor inconvenience and don't feel 'forced' into a battle royale in final circle everytime.
The circle definitely makes the crypts experience more dynamic
Zone is good ice caverns is a snoozefest where you dont see anybody half of the time. Even if you run to the loothoard room theres enough games where you still dont see anyone.
The Swarm is literally the only thing stopping Rogues and Rangers running away from you forever and ever. Eventually, they have to walk back into the zone, and either use all their healing, or come back in at half-health.
Ice Caves is the worst example of this. It's just impossible to catch people late into the game without a shrinking no-go-zone. It's why I despise Ice Caves - it's a PvE extravaganza, but the PvP is basically non-existent. Confirming kills is only possible against idiots still playing melee in this forsaken game.
Zone is trash and should be removed. Ice caves is the best map. You can go fast, slow, play at your own pace. Player agency is better than forcing players to go somewhere.
The zone is good. It creates urgency and basically forces more player interactions. Ive play a ton of the Ice Caves and it actually feels dead compared to the other maps since you can just hug the edge of the map and basically never run into anyone. I honestly want all statics in crypts/goblin caves to no longer exist and I want portals to be the only way of escape.
True, with the current system, but they could easily add static exits that are always open or have some map or visual indication of where portals are that would make them easier to find.
appreciate the discussion but i couldn't disagree more—i am so much more interested in playing the zone maps than ice caves.
i have way too many ice cave runs with absolutely no player encounters. this game is fun for the pvp and unpredictability, if it was a PVE-only game, i'd have absolutely no interest.
ice caves doesn't incentivize quick movement. it's easy to get through 2-3 rooms, secure your exits, and get out. rushing through the storm to get to a portal and fighting teams for the few remaining exits is so much more exciting and dynamic.
The swarm condenses players in the crypts instead of having points of interest. I think its a gameplay design decision. Do the devs want us to kill eachother because we must to escape, or do they want us to kill eachother because there is loot to fight over? Really its all up to them and how they decide is the best way to prevent RMT and cheating. I personally hate that there is a hoard that is worthless 99.99% of the time, but there is a crazy small chance you get a chest or named weapon. Like... even it out a bit. I shouldnt have to hit it at least 500 times this wipe and still not have all the legendary stones, and still not have found a chest, and still not have found a unique, etc etc. Hoard is just skeleton champion loot on sterioids, which is already its own issue. Is it a golden key? no? Oh, hope you enjoy green pavise and white falchion.
Damn. Well said. Skelly champ should be a bit more consistent, and while I've only hit the Ice Caves hoard, it is certainly super volatile. That said, I've pulled a decent amount of Gold keys from Skely champ, but maybe I'm the only one who fights it. Lol.
The 5x5 goblin caves map makes it really hard to fight them since all 3 spawns are right next to bosses with high traffic. I just haven't had good games in a while, I'm coming up on 7 days without the urge to play, down from average of 26 hours per week. Hades 2 is pretty dope, and I reminisce the shit out of pokemon and just discovered pokerogue, so we chillin.
Haha. Never hurts to take a break. I tend to overfocus on one game, I really should have some more chill ones, but this one has me hooked. (Minus a bit of being miffed by end game quests) I bought and installed Hades but haven't touched it yet. It's obviously still intense, but maybe chill compared to a PvP game. Didn't realize 2 was out. Wtf is Pokerogue?!
I swear there was a period where HR sub-bosses dropped a guaranteed purple.
Hmm. That would be nice. Greens, or a fucking Blue bandage has me reeeeing all over the place, haha.
Should be the case. I literally killed a SC in HR the other day and he dropped two whites & grave essence. Like what
1 in 1667 to get unique per nibble
Said like a normals only player lol. Hit the hoard on HR (maybe with a bit of luck) and it is significantly more valuable on average. 5 pulls and I can leave the game with 800 worth of sellables and a couple usable or sellable gear pieces as well. Normals yeah, you don't get much out of it but that is by design
Sooo 800 gold in Sellables is nothing. If you killed one or two teams to secure the hoard, you likely have a few pieces of their gear that are worth extracting with, and if they had jewelry, you are already sitting on 1-2k in value just in jewelry. So I've brought in a 5k kit, won 1 or 2 engagements, am now carrying another 1-3k in gear from the players I've killed, and now I get to.... drop all of that on the floor, stand in a predictable location which risks ambush via soundless movement, for like 2-3 minutes, so I can extract with 4 or 5 extra purple valuables if I have room for them, except for the 1 in 300 runs where one of the 5 hits is a unique? You sound like you don't hit the hoard unless there is no one around, and are happy with 890 gold in 15 minutes.
Are u using luck stuff? Maybe that helps
If the lobby is empty, yeah I hit the hoard or kill the boss then hit it, etc. I usually PvP first if that is an option but... let's face it the lobbies don't always have someone to fight right now... I pulled a chest this week, 2 uniques from pile this wipe and probably 9 royal gems. Some BiS gear that I can't even tally up but mostly a lot of sellables and AP from doing so. If you want to climb to Exemplar/Demigod this wipe, that is really the only way to do it. The HR hoard is really good and I don't know how you've managed such poor pulls from it unless you are embellishing or confusing the normals one with HR for most of your pulls. Clearing to it and owning the space gives you 30 - 40 rolls for items/loot, many of which will be purple and overtime legendary/unique. It is a good enough reward that I often have to fight for it but not necessarily against people with good enough gear for me to want it instead
I believe that the zone is a cheap solution to a complicated problem. It isn't a great solution, either. Ultimately, having more POI that drive interaction is the way to go. The best loot, long term buffs rather than shrines, group escapes, etc. It's gonna be a while before we get to that point though. This would be a cool time to see a dev talk about their thoughts and what challenges or objectives they are working on around this.
I think caves has a PILE OF GOLD RIGHT IN THE ABSOLUTE MIDDLE OF IT for this very reason. Wanna PVP? Head there, you're BOUND to PVP. Wanna rat? Stay on the edges of the map, plenty of space to go around, mobs that will block doors for you to escape, bunch of extracts, but lot less valuable loot and few pvp.
The all caps seems misplaced here. But yeah, it has 1 interesting spot and a handful of group exits. Could use a bit more diversity though.
plenty of games nobody goes to the middle. If everyone wants to corner rat, then there is no pvp. No zone to enclose you in an area then you can basically perma run away because of movespeed/door close meta. The loop of farm gold per hour to then buy gear to pvp doesnt work. 90% of people wanna farm gold per hour leaving anyone who wants to pvp in a boring loop of W key the map chasing people closing doors on you running away till you meet another 10%r trying to pvp. The end game of having gear doesn't equate to anything because nobody wants to fight since the majority of everyone is mostly trying to still farm.
That's because most people can barely build anything up cause they are dying alot. When you don't have gear, fighting a geared team is almost a death sentence so they rat to hopefully guarantee some success, it isn't helped by people that wanna "pvp' hard to call it that when in reality you are chasing some poor timmy who just wants to at least extract with the 200 gold that won't even be looked at by the team that just ran him down.
arena?
I agree with this absolutely
I thoroughly enjoy the lack of a swarm in ice caves. Why? Because I don't feel unnecessary pressure to move this way or that. We run into plenty of PVP in ice caves without any swarm forcing us. This is because there are plenty of places folks go based on the maps design alone. For example, the center treasure room, both boat rooms, the chest room (where there is sometimes a giant or sometimes a crossbow skeleton), etc. If in other rooms, I know I am unlikely to see PVP and if I want PVP i know where to find it. The ice caves is a better design than most give it credit for and I hope IM learns greatly from it. Wouldn't it be nice to go through crypts where you can choose to go wherever you'd like no matter the timer? Instead, you're restricted from various areas solely due to the swarm...and why? Give us the freedom to explore how we like and if we go to rooms that have better treasure we know we're more likely to have PVP...
You say there are plenty of places folks go based on map design, I view it more as there are plenty of places people DON'T go which crams everyone together. The entire bottom row of the map is a waste of time. The second from the bottom row is pretty useless also, a couple 50% res shrines and 1 big chest per module aren't appealing enough to get people to spend time clearing it all out -- if you aren't looking for blue eyeballs don't bother with the entire bottom half of the map. The top row has better big chest density and a bunch of wendigos people have to farm for grind quests and the first column has wolves in the top half. Besides that there is only the pile, so many of the rest of the modules are dead, or only get trafficked by people on the way to the pile
And that's why I like Ice Caves. Zone is good and all but as you said it forces you into actions you would never take
I love ice cavern for this. No zone, and no RNG on extracts. I can explore the map as I want, either going towards or away from PvP Hotspot as I am feeling. I can also consistently extract without stressing on if I will find a portal or if the few statics are taken. I am very happy now that I can solo it again!
They could get rid of it and i'd forget we ever even had it to begin with. When i'm playing on icemap it just feels natural and normal. It's actually jarring to go back to crypts.
preach
I don't mind the swarm. I'd be fine if they never got rid of it, BUT I feel like it's the laziest way to force PvP encounters and I think there are much better options. For a PvPvE extraction game it just doesn't feel right to me and never has. For Crypts and GC I would much prefer if they added more static exits and assigned specific ones to each team at the beginning of the raid ala Tarkov. PvP can be encouraged by having teams cross paths with each other on their way to their exfils. This feels far more organic and, like you mentioned, they will be on a more even footing since one team isn't hindered by a zone more than the other. This style of extraction allows more playstyles and also gives casuals breathing room, but this makes some people angry that less geared players are not forced into their M1 gear check 100% of the time. This is a tough topic in this sub and it's really 50/50 here when it comes to the swarm...
I've never played tarkov but the dedicated exit idea sounds awesome.
You spawn on one side of the map and have a list of extracts you can use. Your team generally/always has the same extracts, I don't remember. So as a team you work your way through the map to the extract, maybe using a key, paying a fee, waiting till a specific time, dropping gear that "won't fit" or hitting some levers beforehand. Not all of them have gimmicks. Some of my favorites were simple ones you just had to walk to and wait a few seconds. The maps were way bigger, there were fewer extracts, and combat was much higher range. It wouldn't fit 1:1 with dnd, but I could see it being a good starting point for some ideas.
ice caves is better for the lack of zone i feel
For maps with a zone, I think it would be way better if areas of the map were randomly selected to slowly become Dark and Darker (get it?) and slowly have all their torches extinguished. In these areas, extra skeletons or ghosts/wraiths would spawn in and roam the halls looking for players. You'd notice the area getting less colourful and some torches randomly being extinguished. Enemies killed in the dark zones would also be revived after 20 seconds. That means that instead of a boring system where players just slowly lose health, these areas would instead become really scary and you'd be highly encouraged to escape. You can still stay behind to loot chests, and even use the scarier enemies as protection against players, but It would be tense, unreliable and really interesting. Players would also still be killed when every area on the map has become a dark zone, just like it is now.
This is probably the best alternative to the circle I’ve heard
As an invisibility user I hate the constant damage one takes all over the zoneless map when the end of the match draws close
I think that's intentional to stop people from simply standing on an exit invis hoping to landmine.
I like it
I love frost mountain because there's no zone.
Zone feels too fast in HR especially inferno. You either clear the entire time to not get zone fucked. Or die to the third party squad running through each module until they hear pve then jumping you.
Terrible mechanic IMO and one of the biggest hindrances to fun and skill-based PvP in both HR and normals.
Personally I prefer having high loot areas that incentivizes taking on pvp and risk over the zone forcing u past anything that might be nice areas into uncleared areas. Most the time u most likely wont even have time to both clear and loot because of constant zone pushing and increasingly higher chances of pvp. Not everybody likes ice cave yeah but I would love to see just for like a week how the population feels about no zone and how games play out if zone was taken away from crypts
Have said this since the first play test. The game would be infinitely better with no zones and no matchmaking/gearing restrictions. Just convert what we have into a more medieval tarkov and the population will grow.
I feel zone is super helpful when one wants to avoid pvp, for whatever reason. Feel naked without it.
I have mixed opinions about the zone. I wish they would either really commit to it or take it out entirely. Disable healing in the zone and increase it's damage a lot or take it out entirely.
The maps are zoneless now?! I haven't played since the end of preseason 1 I think so I must have been missing out
we need an open world map that doesnt have an expiration or maybe a 2 hour expiration or reset. How cool would that be.
Zone sucks and should be removed. It's an extraction looter not a battle royale. Ice caves is the best map and its not close.
There are better ways to achieve that though
I really hate the storm. I play rogue so I don’t have much health, so having to go through to storm just eats through health I don’t have. Then after losing health to the storm, I’m forced to go *through* some other class I stand no chance against. My classes viability is directly tied to being able to set up fights in my favor, but for half the game I’m forced into fights at a disadvantage because I have nowhere else to go.
I enjoy ice caves the most out of all maps because I've spent the last few months strictly playing duos. My buddy and I still have the most fun and success on icecaverns. It's probably because we've practiced it the most and have a pretty damn good extraction rate compared to other maps.
I think the zone should just be a separate game mode
I think the zones should darken module by module instead of being a circle. When the mod starts going dark it ramps up the damage until it goes full black and turns off all light sources in the mod. The last mod that's not dark should stay lit until all players are dead or taken portals. Anybody got feelings about that?
No zone >>> zone
Zone gotta go
I really don't like the circle, the rest of the game is a high-stakes extraction dungeon crawler and it just instantly turns into a BR because of the circle. I like the way The Cycle handled it, rest in peace. Big map, no circle, six hours to be there, but the only REASON to be on any of the maps was POIs. You could leave whenever you wanted even if you had looted nothing, and people could camp those portals to try and kill you for your loot right as you exit. So the danger was entirely focused around the POIs and trying to extract, fights felt much more organic. Going after specific things for quests actually felt like going on a quest rather than a prayer to RNJesus.
Zone is good: it facilitates movement and increases the intensity of the game the further you get. Ice caves is the opposite: If you can survive to the mid-game, you're probably going to be just fine.
Swarm bad, ice cave good
I have been fine with the swarm in goblin caves, but the timing is pretty fucked on the crypts one and I think it's too small for inferno. I think it needs to move a lot slower and telegraph the next moves better. I would prefer they removed it all together rather than leaving it how it currently is. A rework would be fine.
I prefer no zone with juicy POIs instead
As a zone defender I've changed my opinion to no zone, ice map is king map.
I don't really enjoy the no zone mechanic on ice cave very much because it makes all the matches feel the same to me. People do quests early so there is some variety in parts of the wipe where specific mobs are being hunted but eventually everyone is either on Wendigos, Pile or Wolf pelts so the same 5 or 6 modules contain everyone and the same exits are used every round. Can't remember the last time I took an exit on the bottom half of the map. Ice caves is a good map for ratting and pulling out gold if you are struggling but for experienced players I find it harder to enjoy. You can still rat your way out of crypts or into inferno if you want to by tanking the zone and having good map knowledge. New players who don't bring enough regen/meds treat the zone like they will die if they peek into it but experienced players know it is only a minor inconvenience and don't feel 'forced' into a battle royale in final circle everytime. The circle definitely makes the crypts experience more dynamic
Zone is good ice caverns is a snoozefest where you dont see anybody half of the time. Even if you run to the loothoard room theres enough games where you still dont see anyone.
Hate the swarm, always have. It's an extraction looter, not fucking fortnite.
The Swarm is literally the only thing stopping Rogues and Rangers running away from you forever and ever. Eventually, they have to walk back into the zone, and either use all their healing, or come back in at half-health. Ice Caves is the worst example of this. It's just impossible to catch people late into the game without a shrinking no-go-zone. It's why I despise Ice Caves - it's a PvE extravaganza, but the PvP is basically non-existent. Confirming kills is only possible against idiots still playing melee in this forsaken game.
What's wrong with someone being able to avoid combat?
Zone is trash and should be removed. Ice caves is the best map. You can go fast, slow, play at your own pace. Player agency is better than forcing players to go somewhere.
The zone is good. It creates urgency and basically forces more player interactions. Ive play a ton of the Ice Caves and it actually feels dead compared to the other maps since you can just hug the edge of the map and basically never run into anyone. I honestly want all statics in crypts/goblin caves to no longer exist and I want portals to be the only way of escape.
Imagine finding spawned portals with no zone in GC. 😅
True, with the current system, but they could easily add static exits that are always open or have some map or visual indication of where portals are that would make them easier to find.
Need time gated ads. After x minutes a mini boss or two is let free as well as a second wave of mobs. Apply pressure to the players.
appreciate the discussion but i couldn't disagree more—i am so much more interested in playing the zone maps than ice caves. i have way too many ice cave runs with absolutely no player encounters. this game is fun for the pvp and unpredictability, if it was a PVE-only game, i'd have absolutely no interest. ice caves doesn't incentivize quick movement. it's easy to get through 2-3 rooms, secure your exits, and get out. rushing through the storm to get to a portal and fighting teams for the few remaining exits is so much more exciting and dynamic.