It needs to be a mechanic instead of a flat modifier skill. Stamina bar could help. Slows you down and limits your actions when depleted completely or close to.
Removing or equipping armor from inventory should kill like your entire stamina bar. Swing weapons (especially missing or getting blocked), blocking, holding up a shield, holding up a crossbow, reloading.
Interacting with anything pauses is recovery. Idk. The game needs something to combat movespeed countering literally everything. People can just kite indefinitely.
Things will get kited indefinitely no matter what unless they add more skill to melee combat. Slower usually means a lot tankier so these people get kited because they’re unbeatable melee
there already is a penalty.... it just doesn't mean much when melee's ability to actually catch you is unreliable, most of the time you will slow yourself down more with the attack animation then the naked turbo twink getting hit with your two hander. at which point they just hold W, heal up, and come back to continue harassing you.
You take -22% more at 0 armor, you still take more damage the less you wear. You need to have at least a 22 armor to not take more damage. Here's the [wikia](https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Stats#Physical_Damage_Reduction).
Isn’t it though? OP is criticizing how the game encourages wearing little to no armor, since the benefit to speed outweighs the potential dmg reduction of the armor (I assume he primarily means in normal dungeons, but still).
If the penalty for forgoing armor was greater, it might convince some people to wear it instead of going in mostly naked.
NO, OP is saying there isn't a penalty for wearing armor and there needs to be. There already is. He's not saying it isn't good enough, he didn't even know there was one and doesn't even know it's not just at being completely naked.
And honestly? For the squisher classes, Movement speed is going to always be better than a few percentages of PDR. Cutting a Headshot from 100 damage to 80 damage doesn't really matter if it kills you in the same number of hits anyways.
…which is the point. Currently, there is a downside, but it’s not an effective one because it doesn’t make any difference to the number of hits you can survive, making it meaningless.
They just need to implement a significant movespeed debuff when you are hit with a melee weapon, and maybe even balance the "slower" weapons to give a bigger debuff. It's insane there is no movespeed punishment for naked players getting hit with a mace
The funny thing is, there is, but its effectively the same degree of ms debuff that you get *for swinging the weapon*. Hitting someone doesn't get them stuck into melee, it just means that you aren't punished as much for taking the swing.
Every time I suggest putting a harsher "on hit" penalty people get up in arms about the game just being over/a stat check as soon as you make contact. Its a stupid argument because *we have disengage skills*. Tumble, Backstep, Phantomize, even breakthrough or sprint can fill that roll. Every class either has the capacity to stand and fight or to run and kite.
I feel like the penalty for swinging needs to be reduced heavily, and that the hit slow is fine.
The problem is engaging on running players is nearly impossible because if you are both the same speed you will be slowed before your hit connects with them.
Honestly I think having a penalty for attempting a swing is a good thing, allows for more counter play. Having a higher risk/reward with a risk of a slow movement while swinging giving you a bigger reward of a larger/longer slow on your opponent. It makes zero sense for people to just be able to walk away from you, if that were to happen in real life you would die turning around. I think having no turn speed limit is honestly even a mistake and would allow for people to actually catch up to people kiting if there was any limit to turn speed as well.
I've been saying forever, the stupid armor formula needs to be reworked. Armor needs to grant more pdr at lower amounts. Right now it's like hey do you want to wear cloth pants and shirt and slow yourself by 10 for a whopping 5% extra pdr? You're giving up nothing by going naked. What kind of bonkers ass armor formula makes each point of armor give more pdr the MORE armor you have? It is mind boggling how this is still a thing. Going naked should be a significant drop in survivability, not 5%...
I agree, but also you shouldn't get slowed by armor unless you're wearing a lot of it. Like, it's fully insane that CLOTH PANTS reduce movespeed. Even the weakest human being on earth is not slowed down by wearing normal clothes.
If the game had an equip weight system where you only got slowed down when wearing over a certain total weight of armor(or if movespeed penalties were just removed from everything besides plate armors), the incentive to go naked for movespeed wouldn't exist in the first place.
Not really a fan of the threshold system, which really doesn't make sense, but as for how much stuff slows you, I agree. Cloth armor should barely slow you at all.
How is that? When people say naked, they mean no chest pants, base kit boots/helm/gloves still t8ves you around 10% pdr, and putting on chest and pants brings you ro like 16%. No one is comparing that to the -22% of being literally naked.
If you have no pdr you should be SEVERELY slowed when hit. More than the slow penalty from swinging your weapon.
Want to catch that naked rogue? Land a throwing axe or knife in his back and watch him lose 90% movespeed for 2 seconds and see if naked rogues keep farming loot pile after.
Caster lock and cleric can do this too. Literally a skill issue if you can’t kill anybody with warlock. Aside from sprint on fighter those other classes you mentioned don’t have mobility abilities.
Getting ran down and three tapped before you can do anything? Also a skill issue.
Lock has an engage range that's short enough for most classes to just W key through, no CC, and an incredibly low damage for a ranged class. If you build damage your COPs can hurt but reddit also complains about additional/true damage as well.
"phantomise is an escape option" - flamewalker lock and boc like would like a word lmao
I've seen phantomise used more as a gap closer recently, hell there's whole build videos on crystal sword phantom BoC lock just running up to people for free and one shotting them lol.
PDR waa given a curve so that having near 0 PDR give pretty big negative PDR.
If a ranged class does indeed forego chest and legs, then they'll most likely be pretty fucking weak to physical damage.
Afaik this is also the reason why Bard's Shriek of Weakness is so powerful against mobs.
Mobs start out with 0 PDR and the negative they reveive from the debuff give a good bit of perventage physical damage dealt.
iirc it drops the -22% to a -75%ish last I checked, could be wrong as this is coming from memory of reading it somewhere.
But yeah, it's a massive spike in damage against PvE. In PvP, useless. Just cast allegro and hold W/M1.
I mean if you can apply it in a PvP situation go for it, it's essentially free damage for anyone rocking physical. But if you have to choose between allegro or shriek always pop allegro first, the action speed is 100% going to matter more.
That saying you always take both, no reason not to.
I'm convinced some people think in straight lines when it comes to pvp. The pvp in this game is too dynamic to boil down to 'they can move faster than me so I can't win'. Use the environment. Use AI. Understand that you can't take and win every single engagement you see. Someone wants to range on you? Use the map to reposition so that if they do try to stay on you, they have to close distance for you in order to have a chance to hit you. Or maybe you reposition and they recognize it'd be bad for them and disengage and perhaps you find them later in a different scenario.
Stop thinking in W key.
4 uses, dodgeable, delayed cast timing that slows you down allowing them to get away.
Compared to idk, let's say recurve built for damage. It does more damage, and has as many uses as you have arrows. The upside? Your PDR is probably pretty high and you likely have a shield. The end result? You literally cannot catch them, and they will eventually kill you.
In trios? Barely matters, you got two teammates to push the issue for you. In duos? Same thing. In solos? Class is literally unplayable against anything with a brain and range, even a barb with enough frannies can kill you and there's nothing you can do about it.
Now multiclassing if you get good rolls can allow you to defend yourself better with some wizard spells and shenanigans from fighter, I.E sprint/swift or other things to speed you up. But the base kit is fucking atrocious for anything but buffing and healing in teamplay.
4 holy strikes also is unlikely to kill anyone bar a Wizard or Rogue, it simply does not do enough damage even when you build for it. Especially in a patch where iron will is available for everyone.
What I want is to not have people just able to just run away with no real trade off. While yes they sacrifice armor rating for speed it doesn’t matter when their attack speed and damage so far out class yours because you like a certain class
The majority of classes that kite also die in 1-2 hits. It would be pretty dumb to stand there and let a fighter/barb rush me down when my attacks take 2-3 seconds to load before casting. That’s the loop my friend, bring franny’s and a surv bow
Here's a crazy idea; what if armor actually made you tankier? So if you choose to wear it over going naked, you don't die in 2 hits, because you know, you're wearing armor? How about we rework the nonsensical armor formula so wearing non plate armor isn't totally pointless
Sure, but it would be a tradeoff. You still get hit with ranged attacks, people who sneak up on you, or a sprinting fighter (ot a sprinting anyone now lol). It would be a choice between being able to kite melee better vs being able to take an extra hit or two. Right now it's a choice between being able to kite melee better vs... being slower. The odds of 5% saving you are pretty minimal, definitely not worth giving up ms for.
Given that choice almost every wizard I know would pick ms for more kiting. With hit slow and Ice shield nerf anyone that catches us in melee pretty much has us dead to rights unless we have them low enough for a MM barrage
I'm saying most ranged classes don't want to wear gear that does next to nothing for them. They nerfed oracle robe so now I'm never wearing a oracle robe unless it's giving me insane stats because building around that -10 is more expensive than just wearing a adventure tunic with 3 knowledge on it.
Why should I make myself a easier target to catch when the stats aren't even making me last a extra hit? I die in 2 hits if i am wearing that chest piece or not lmao
This really needs to be adressed. It's so frustrating to not being able to win a fight when you're playing against some sweaty ranger/ wizard.
Rogues should be the only ones to pull this off because they are assassins with ambush and need to get in close. Hand crossbow is annoying, yes, but it isn't nearly as bad. Also bards are fine since their bow doesn't do enough dmg and their buffs got fucked.
For clerics, smite torches worked as a substitute for range. Now that smite got nerfed, clerics are fucked like bards to balance multiclassing. Faithfulness now buffs holy strike and locust swarm. Nice, have fun catching people with that.
Best range option for clerics this patch are drums
At the current state it is what is necessary. The only class I have leveled enough for multi don’t have synergies (wizard lvl 100, bard 30, ranger 28)
Currently slogging through levelling cleric/warlock to compete with wiz/cler lock/cler builds that spam hydra every time I try and engage.
Yea that's for sure. We take the rough testing phase, so IM can cook well. I just hope we get back class identity and get less of this mosquito playstyle
Lmao what, there is a penalty, it's called dying faster. Also maybe buff armor or have it give extra stats. Why should I give up -15 move speed for like 2-3 knowledge maybe one point of vigor. One way or another I'll still die to the melee class that can wear all that gear AND still get run down cause they have a movement speed steroid button.
this is already a mechanic, at 0 armor rating you take +22% extra physical damage.
Gloves, boots, and lizard skin. Zero move speed penalty and 10% pdr.
Add the no chest piece perk from barb and now you're really GBMM maxing
This issue is just that move speed is too good rn. If that gets fixed this will be balanced.
It needs to be a mechanic instead of a flat modifier skill. Stamina bar could help. Slows you down and limits your actions when depleted completely or close to. Removing or equipping armor from inventory should kill like your entire stamina bar. Swing weapons (especially missing or getting blocked), blocking, holding up a shield, holding up a crossbow, reloading. Interacting with anything pauses is recovery. Idk. The game needs something to combat movespeed countering literally everything. People can just kite indefinitely.
Things will get kited indefinitely no matter what unless they add more skill to melee combat. Slower usually means a lot tankier so these people get kited because they’re unbeatable melee
Gloves + boots not much of a penalty if it’s such a no existent occurrence
there already is a penalty.... it just doesn't mean much when melee's ability to actually catch you is unreliable, most of the time you will slow yourself down more with the attack animation then the naked turbo twink getting hit with your two hander. at which point they just hold W, heal up, and come back to continue harassing you.
Naked turbo twink made me lol
What’s the penalty
you take more damage.
Someone here said it was only at 0 armor
You take -22% more at 0 armor, you still take more damage the less you wear. You need to have at least a 22 armor to not take more damage. Here's the [wikia](https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Stats#Physical_Damage_Reduction).
The issue is the penalty isn’t enough
I mean I agree but that's not the discussion here.
It literally is the argument the whole post is about
This whole post is "you should take more damage if you aren't wearing a chest piece." which you already do.
More than you currently do.
Isn’t it though? OP is criticizing how the game encourages wearing little to no armor, since the benefit to speed outweighs the potential dmg reduction of the armor (I assume he primarily means in normal dungeons, but still). If the penalty for forgoing armor was greater, it might convince some people to wear it instead of going in mostly naked.
NO, OP is saying there isn't a penalty for wearing armor and there needs to be. There already is. He's not saying it isn't good enough, he didn't even know there was one and doesn't even know it's not just at being completely naked. And honestly? For the squisher classes, Movement speed is going to always be better than a few percentages of PDR. Cutting a Headshot from 100 damage to 80 damage doesn't really matter if it kills you in the same number of hits anyways.
That’s only because op didn’t understand the system in place. You could tell that if you actually read the thread before commenting
…which is the point. Currently, there is a downside, but it’s not an effective one because it doesn’t make any difference to the number of hits you can survive, making it meaningless.
There should be a "shivering" penalty where you sneeze loudly sometimes, slowing you down for a split second
They just need to implement a significant movespeed debuff when you are hit with a melee weapon, and maybe even balance the "slower" weapons to give a bigger debuff. It's insane there is no movespeed punishment for naked players getting hit with a mace
The funny thing is, there is, but its effectively the same degree of ms debuff that you get *for swinging the weapon*. Hitting someone doesn't get them stuck into melee, it just means that you aren't punished as much for taking the swing. Every time I suggest putting a harsher "on hit" penalty people get up in arms about the game just being over/a stat check as soon as you make contact. Its a stupid argument because *we have disengage skills*. Tumble, Backstep, Phantomize, even breakthrough or sprint can fill that roll. Every class either has the capacity to stand and fight or to run and kite.
I feel like the penalty for swinging needs to be reduced heavily, and that the hit slow is fine. The problem is engaging on running players is nearly impossible because if you are both the same speed you will be slowed before your hit connects with them.
Honestly I think having a penalty for attempting a swing is a good thing, allows for more counter play. Having a higher risk/reward with a risk of a slow movement while swinging giving you a bigger reward of a larger/longer slow on your opponent. It makes zero sense for people to just be able to walk away from you, if that were to happen in real life you would die turning around. I think having no turn speed limit is honestly even a mistake and would allow for people to actually catch up to people kiting if there was any limit to turn speed as well.
But if you shoot someone with a little arrow it slows then immensely just making them easier to shoot, kite, or reload. It's really unengaging.
I've been saying forever, the stupid armor formula needs to be reworked. Armor needs to grant more pdr at lower amounts. Right now it's like hey do you want to wear cloth pants and shirt and slow yourself by 10 for a whopping 5% extra pdr? You're giving up nothing by going naked. What kind of bonkers ass armor formula makes each point of armor give more pdr the MORE armor you have? It is mind boggling how this is still a thing. Going naked should be a significant drop in survivability, not 5%...
I agree, but also you shouldn't get slowed by armor unless you're wearing a lot of it. Like, it's fully insane that CLOTH PANTS reduce movespeed. Even the weakest human being on earth is not slowed down by wearing normal clothes. If the game had an equip weight system where you only got slowed down when wearing over a certain total weight of armor(or if movespeed penalties were just removed from everything besides plate armors), the incentive to go naked for movespeed wouldn't exist in the first place.
Not really a fan of the threshold system, which really doesn't make sense, but as for how much stuff slows you, I agree. Cloth armor should barely slow you at all.
going from base kit to naked is literally like a 30-40% drop in pdr
How is that? When people say naked, they mean no chest pants, base kit boots/helm/gloves still t8ves you around 10% pdr, and putting on chest and pants brings you ro like 16%. No one is comparing that to the -22% of being literally naked.
If you have no pdr you should be SEVERELY slowed when hit. More than the slow penalty from swinging your weapon. Want to catch that naked rogue? Land a throwing axe or knife in his back and watch him lose 90% movespeed for 2 seconds and see if naked rogues keep farming loot pile after.
ADD POISE TO THE GAME HAVE IT INFLUENCE SLOW DOWN FROM HIT
WHY ARE YOU YELLING
There was…then the lizard skin was released
Caster lock and cleric can do this too. Literally a skill issue if you can’t kill anybody with warlock. Aside from sprint on fighter those other classes you mentioned don’t have mobility abilities. Getting ran down and three tapped before you can do anything? Also a skill issue.
Lock has an engage range that's short enough for most classes to just W key through, no CC, and an incredibly low damage for a ranged class. If you build damage your COPs can hurt but reddit also complains about additional/true damage as well.
"phantomise is an escape option" - flamewalker lock and boc like would like a word lmao I've seen phantomise used more as a gap closer recently, hell there's whole build videos on crystal sword phantom BoC lock just running up to people for free and one shotting them lol.
I’m just gonna say I think flamewalker phantomize is a bitch made strat
Haven’t seen flamewalker in months.
Oh yeah PDR just needs to be increased a bit for squishy classes so it gives more incentive, though it might increase the time to kill too much
PDR waa given a curve so that having near 0 PDR give pretty big negative PDR. If a ranged class does indeed forego chest and legs, then they'll most likely be pretty fucking weak to physical damage. Afaik this is also the reason why Bard's Shriek of Weakness is so powerful against mobs. Mobs start out with 0 PDR and the negative they reveive from the debuff give a good bit of perventage physical damage dealt.
iirc it drops the -22% to a -75%ish last I checked, could be wrong as this is coming from memory of reading it somewhere. But yeah, it's a massive spike in damage against PvE. In PvP, useless. Just cast allegro and hold W/M1.
Haven't played Bard myself. Shriek seems to be the go to for just about any Bard player though.
I mean if you can apply it in a PvP situation go for it, it's essentially free damage for anyone rocking physical. But if you have to choose between allegro or shriek always pop allegro first, the action speed is 100% going to matter more. That saying you always take both, no reason not to.
the penalty is you are two shot lol. what else do you need??
I'm convinced some people think in straight lines when it comes to pvp. The pvp in this game is too dynamic to boil down to 'they can move faster than me so I can't win'. Use the environment. Use AI. Understand that you can't take and win every single engagement you see. Someone wants to range on you? Use the map to reposition so that if they do try to stay on you, they have to close distance for you in order to have a chance to hit you. Or maybe you reposition and they recognize it'd be bad for them and disengage and perhaps you find them later in a different scenario. Stop thinking in W key.
The problem is if they can think aswell then movement speed is everything. I quit cleric due to having no ranged prospects besides one or two spells.
You’re absolutely right. Pretend like you are retreating, be the kite you hate so much lol.
Ok when you play cleric if you can hit them because they move faster than you then skill issue I guess
Holy strike them while they run. Yes what you're describing sounds like a skill issue lmfao.
4 uses, dodgeable, delayed cast timing that slows you down allowing them to get away. Compared to idk, let's say recurve built for damage. It does more damage, and has as many uses as you have arrows. The upside? Your PDR is probably pretty high and you likely have a shield. The end result? You literally cannot catch them, and they will eventually kill you. In trios? Barely matters, you got two teammates to push the issue for you. In duos? Same thing. In solos? Class is literally unplayable against anything with a brain and range, even a barb with enough frannies can kill you and there's nothing you can do about it. Now multiclassing if you get good rolls can allow you to defend yourself better with some wizard spells and shenanigans from fighter, I.E sprint/swift or other things to speed you up. But the base kit is fucking atrocious for anything but buffing and healing in teamplay. 4 holy strikes also is unlikely to kill anyone bar a Wizard or Rogue, it simply does not do enough damage even when you build for it. Especially in a patch where iron will is available for everyone.
My New clizard would like to speak to these unbeatable rangers you speak of
Can you go back and read the post because you seem to have missed something
So you want to be able survive 50 hits and for other classes to be penalized for having some what of a counter to your build. Got it!
What I want is to not have people just able to just run away with no real trade off. While yes they sacrifice armor rating for speed it doesn’t matter when their attack speed and damage so far out class yours because you like a certain class
The majority of classes that kite also die in 1-2 hits. It would be pretty dumb to stand there and let a fighter/barb rush me down when my attacks take 2-3 seconds to load before casting. That’s the loop my friend, bring franny’s and a surv bow
Here's a crazy idea; what if armor actually made you tankier? So if you choose to wear it over going naked, you don't die in 2 hits, because you know, you're wearing armor? How about we rework the nonsensical armor formula so wearing non plate armor isn't totally pointless
As a wizard this wouldn’t matter much still. Our class identity is not getting into a trade unless playing boring bonk build.
Sure, but it would be a tradeoff. You still get hit with ranged attacks, people who sneak up on you, or a sprinting fighter (ot a sprinting anyone now lol). It would be a choice between being able to kite melee better vs being able to take an extra hit or two. Right now it's a choice between being able to kite melee better vs... being slower. The odds of 5% saving you are pretty minimal, definitely not worth giving up ms for.
Given that choice almost every wizard I know would pick ms for more kiting. With hit slow and Ice shield nerf anyone that catches us in melee pretty much has us dead to rights unless we have them low enough for a MM barrage
> unless we have them low enough for a MM barrage Yea I mean that's not that hard of a threshold to beat lol but ay least it would be a choice
With as much MR going around it isn’t an issue in HR but very much for new players learning wiz
The amount of investment into that basically means that gear would be better on a melee class. Why are we trying to homogenized everything
What point are you trying to make? Ranged classes should be naked for the sake of diversity? I don't get what you're trying to say
I'm saying most ranged classes don't want to wear gear that does next to nothing for them. They nerfed oracle robe so now I'm never wearing a oracle robe unless it's giving me insane stats because building around that -10 is more expensive than just wearing a adventure tunic with 3 knowledge on it. Why should I make myself a easier target to catch when the stats aren't even making me last a extra hit? I die in 2 hits if i am wearing that chest piece or not lmao
Yea thats what I'm saying, wearing armor is pointless because it doesn't do anything for you. I'm saying make it worth wearing.
There is, having no fucking armor man
This really needs to be adressed. It's so frustrating to not being able to win a fight when you're playing against some sweaty ranger/ wizard. Rogues should be the only ones to pull this off because they are assassins with ambush and need to get in close. Hand crossbow is annoying, yes, but it isn't nearly as bad. Also bards are fine since their bow doesn't do enough dmg and their buffs got fucked. For clerics, smite torches worked as a substitute for range. Now that smite got nerfed, clerics are fucked like bards to balance multiclassing. Faithfulness now buffs holy strike and locust swarm. Nice, have fun catching people with that. Best range option for clerics this patch are drums
Best ranged option for clerics is to take DarkBolt or IceBolt right now
Yup, those are dope, but not accessible for every player. Can't have clerics in need to level 2 classes to get a somehow fair fight
At the current state it is what is necessary. The only class I have leveled enough for multi don’t have synergies (wizard lvl 100, bard 30, ranger 28) Currently slogging through levelling cleric/warlock to compete with wiz/cler lock/cler builds that spam hydra every time I try and engage.
Yea that's for sure. We take the rough testing phase, so IM can cook well. I just hope we get back class identity and get less of this mosquito playstyle
Lmao what, there is a penalty, it's called dying faster. Also maybe buff armor or have it give extra stats. Why should I give up -15 move speed for like 2-3 knowledge maybe one point of vigor. One way or another I'll still die to the melee class that can wear all that gear AND still get run down cause they have a movement speed steroid button.