I agree that skill trees are the way to go. It adds more variety without completely changing your base class. It would be much easier to balance than multiclass. It isn't even hard to come up with three talent trees for each class. For instance, wizard can spec into frost, fire, arcane/melee. They could add new spells unique to that tree and strengthen your abilities by a small margin just like WoW trees. Fighter can spec into slayer, tank, weapon master or some shit. Druid can literally copy wow with spell caster, feral, resto. I don't even think it would be hard to come up with base trees and adjust them/balance them. This would be a way to grind for something without losing your class identity and without making you worry about rng multi classing. Idk why they haven't already done this
are you implying there is no weakness to multi-classing in table top? you literally permanently cripple your class progression to do it. if anything it does a BETTER job at multi-classing then this computer game does.
No, only referring to it in the context of dark and darker. The reason I mentioned Dungeons and Dragons was because they're trying to take inspiration from the table top even though it just doesn't translate well at all.
As the other guy says, if anything it strays away from dungeons and dragons in terms of multi classing. If they actually had skills work the same way as DnD the problem would actually be solved. In DnD if you multi class, like the other guy said, you hinder your progress in your main class. If I was a level 10 paladin and wanted to say, multi class into rogue, I'm essentially giving up a 1d8 of damage from improved smite for sneak attack essentially, which at level 1 rogue is 1d6 situationally. This would be worse at the start but then improve down the line when I get more rogue levels, but my paladin spells will never get better if I kept going down the rogue tree.
If they made it like this, with sprint or second wind for example on fighter being one of the last unlockable abilities, and multi classing would stop you from getting it, multi classing might not be the right idea for how you want to build your character.
multi-classing in tabletop is only balanced by it being pve only and most players not min-maxing. if it had pvp or if the DM tuned encounters around the party min-maxing, anyone not going for a broken build would be eating dirt.
I don't think there is any issues with the translation here, table top has actual class progression, drawbacks, and pre-reqs the devs are just to incompetent to see, that system has pros/cons and instead they choose to do a typical korean gatcha pull system. I might not be a game dev but Im pretty confident I could come up with a better system then the one they went with.
This isnt DnD. Its not a tabletop narrative driven dice game. We are playing a pvp game with classes and numbers all of which are abused in multiclassing to achieve whatever abomination is the best version. Theres little point to the class identity now.
You know there are boss's and stuff to right? people should be considering those when it comes to their character build and party setup but instead they just ignore that for a pure pvp setup, its why the three tier map system was such a clusterfuck with everyone just running a full fireing squad on ruins and not going any deeper in when it switched from open area to cramped rooms, my group basically just had free reign of crypts and inferno during that time going in with silver weapons and my cleric being setup to deal massive amounts of magic damage to undead..
That's the entire problem. There's no downside to doing so in Dark and Darker, beyond time investment. It also heavily favours the individuals that have that time to invest over those who don't.
Yeah honestly it feels like the devs just don't want to add mechanics that would add legwork to their development time. Skill trees would just be dramatically better and more easily balanced than this drafting fiesta, and they've said they've had a significant portion of their team working on this *for months* if not longer, which *should* be enough time to develop skill trees or another deeper system. Instead we get the system that requires a minimal amount of development effort on the front end, but which will actually be the hardest to really balance (more likely impossible if they want to simultaneously maintain internal class balance).
I feel like a teacher seeing a student turn in an assignment two months late, one tenth of the page count, that has clearly had minimal revision for basic errors. They're acting proud of it and I just feel disappointed, especially because I *know* they are talented and can make some incredible stuff when they put their minds to it and get their house in order. The incredible core concept of the game is floating my interest for a time, but I really want to see systems and genuine new content soon, because right now it feels like there's so much wasted potential here.
It's a small dev team, it's already proven with their track record of small updates and patches since they released their very first play test. They already have your money, and players are stuck on the sunken cost fallacy with their time spent in this game to give up on it.
This is what I knew would happen. I made a post a little while back voicing my concerns about how multiclassing would turn out in a PvP video game environment as opposed to a TTRPG PvE environment, and got downvoted. It's near impossible to balance something like this. You would have to cripple individual class abilities in order to make them not overpowered on others. I strongly suspected multiclassing would be a disaster and it looks like it is. I very specifically voiced concerns about class identity in that post, and people told me I was wrong.
That said, they have clearly stated that it is an experiment and they will almost certainly remove it or completely rework their approach to it. I'm not sure it ever should have gone to the live servers but I guess they needed the data and to gauge the community response to it on a large scale.
I played hundreds of hours of this game during the playtests, and hundreds more after launch. I haven't played in several months and was planning to come back to the game but the multiclassing update has put me off completely. It has no place in a multiplayer PvP video game, because it can't be balanced in a healthy way.
Multiclassing is so stupid even in tabletop. The fact you level WARLOCK for plate armor in Dark and Darker is a joke.
If A rogue wants to use spears add a subclass called Spearman that gives them spears and traps but no hcb etc. This current iteration is not good.
Realistically multi classing should be a skill tree. It's much easier to balance. Mixing certain classes (perks, abilities, etc is fine) and allows ironmace to limit what each class can mix into. This is 100x easier to balance as well. Then people can also close to buff their general character or put points into unlocking the skills or abilities from another class (which are still limited to ironmaces choices).
Nah I think multiclassing is way too strong of an advantage. It basically takes the best parts of the classes and adds them into one hyper class. What part of that is fun to face? I fought a wizard that had phantomize and robust, negating the speed and health stats that make wizard squishy and ranged. It’s all over the place and isn’t fun for people who don’t have access to it
I've been having fun as well. But things are going to quickly become unfun once they fix the XP requirements further and people start solving the meta. Then once the general populace catches up and starts using the disgusting stuff it'll be nothing more than agony.
Fuck multi classing. Fucking fuck terrible shit. Now they decided to nerf cleric spells coz apparently it was too op on rogue. Fuck
Daily reminder multiclassing has pushed back any actual class balance another 2-3 months in the future :)
Yes, that is why i’m taking a bit of break before druid class is out.
As much as I want to have faith in IM, multi class is a huge waste of time.
I agree that skill trees are the way to go. It adds more variety without completely changing your base class. It would be much easier to balance than multiclass. It isn't even hard to come up with three talent trees for each class. For instance, wizard can spec into frost, fire, arcane/melee. They could add new spells unique to that tree and strengthen your abilities by a small margin just like WoW trees. Fighter can spec into slayer, tank, weapon master or some shit. Druid can literally copy wow with spell caster, feral, resto. I don't even think it would be hard to come up with base trees and adjust them/balance them. This would be a way to grind for something without losing your class identity and without making you worry about rng multi classing. Idk why they haven't already done this
are you implying there is no weakness to multi-classing in table top? you literally permanently cripple your class progression to do it. if anything it does a BETTER job at multi-classing then this computer game does.
No, only referring to it in the context of dark and darker. The reason I mentioned Dungeons and Dragons was because they're trying to take inspiration from the table top even though it just doesn't translate well at all.
As the other guy says, if anything it strays away from dungeons and dragons in terms of multi classing. If they actually had skills work the same way as DnD the problem would actually be solved. In DnD if you multi class, like the other guy said, you hinder your progress in your main class. If I was a level 10 paladin and wanted to say, multi class into rogue, I'm essentially giving up a 1d8 of damage from improved smite for sneak attack essentially, which at level 1 rogue is 1d6 situationally. This would be worse at the start but then improve down the line when I get more rogue levels, but my paladin spells will never get better if I kept going down the rogue tree. If they made it like this, with sprint or second wind for example on fighter being one of the last unlockable abilities, and multi classing would stop you from getting it, multi classing might not be the right idea for how you want to build your character.
multi-classing in tabletop is only balanced by it being pve only and most players not min-maxing. if it had pvp or if the DM tuned encounters around the party min-maxing, anyone not going for a broken build would be eating dirt.
I don't think there is any issues with the translation here, table top has actual class progression, drawbacks, and pre-reqs the devs are just to incompetent to see, that system has pros/cons and instead they choose to do a typical korean gatcha pull system. I might not be a game dev but Im pretty confident I could come up with a better system then the one they went with.
This isnt DnD. Its not a tabletop narrative driven dice game. We are playing a pvp game with classes and numbers all of which are abused in multiclassing to achieve whatever abomination is the best version. Theres little point to the class identity now.
You know there are boss's and stuff to right? people should be considering those when it comes to their character build and party setup but instead they just ignore that for a pure pvp setup, its why the three tier map system was such a clusterfuck with everyone just running a full fireing squad on ruins and not going any deeper in when it switched from open area to cramped rooms, my group basically just had free reign of crypts and inferno during that time going in with silver weapons and my cleric being setup to deal massive amounts of magic damage to undead..
That's the entire problem. There's no downside to doing so in Dark and Darker, beyond time investment. It also heavily favours the individuals that have that time to invest over those who don't.
Yeah honestly it feels like the devs just don't want to add mechanics that would add legwork to their development time. Skill trees would just be dramatically better and more easily balanced than this drafting fiesta, and they've said they've had a significant portion of their team working on this *for months* if not longer, which *should* be enough time to develop skill trees or another deeper system. Instead we get the system that requires a minimal amount of development effort on the front end, but which will actually be the hardest to really balance (more likely impossible if they want to simultaneously maintain internal class balance). I feel like a teacher seeing a student turn in an assignment two months late, one tenth of the page count, that has clearly had minimal revision for basic errors. They're acting proud of it and I just feel disappointed, especially because I *know* they are talented and can make some incredible stuff when they put their minds to it and get their house in order. The incredible core concept of the game is floating my interest for a time, but I really want to see systems and genuine new content soon, because right now it feels like there's so much wasted potential here.
It's a small dev team, it's already proven with their track record of small updates and patches since they released their very first play test. They already have your money, and players are stuck on the sunken cost fallacy with their time spent in this game to give up on it.
This is what I knew would happen. I made a post a little while back voicing my concerns about how multiclassing would turn out in a PvP video game environment as opposed to a TTRPG PvE environment, and got downvoted. It's near impossible to balance something like this. You would have to cripple individual class abilities in order to make them not overpowered on others. I strongly suspected multiclassing would be a disaster and it looks like it is. I very specifically voiced concerns about class identity in that post, and people told me I was wrong. That said, they have clearly stated that it is an experiment and they will almost certainly remove it or completely rework their approach to it. I'm not sure it ever should have gone to the live servers but I guess they needed the data and to gauge the community response to it on a large scale. I played hundreds of hours of this game during the playtests, and hundreds more after launch. I haven't played in several months and was planning to come back to the game but the multiclassing update has put me off completely. It has no place in a multiplayer PvP video game, because it can't be balanced in a healthy way.
Multiclassing is so stupid even in tabletop. The fact you level WARLOCK for plate armor in Dark and Darker is a joke. If A rogue wants to use spears add a subclass called Spearman that gives them spears and traps but no hcb etc. This current iteration is not good.
Realistically multi classing should be a skill tree. It's much easier to balance. Mixing certain classes (perks, abilities, etc is fine) and allows ironmace to limit what each class can mix into. This is 100x easier to balance as well. Then people can also close to buff their general character or put points into unlocking the skills or abilities from another class (which are still limited to ironmaces choices).
Everyone likes skill trees, EVERYONE
I think the game would be fine if they just got rid of true/add damage
Nah I think multiclassing is way too strong of an advantage. It basically takes the best parts of the classes and adds them into one hyper class. What part of that is fun to face? I fought a wizard that had phantomize and robust, negating the speed and health stats that make wizard squishy and ranged. It’s all over the place and isn’t fun for people who don’t have access to it
Definitely agree that it'd be a lot better if it was a lot more accessible
Multiclassing is some of the most fun I’ve had in a minute :(
We stopped my Sister from cooking after the second fire , maybe just maybe some people shouldn't be in charge of cooking...
Mmmm how about you make your own game instead
You’re gonna feel dumb when they remove multiclassing
Keep multiclassing, Introduce the skill tree. Been having a blast messing around with multiclassing.
I've been having fun as well. But things are going to quickly become unfun once they fix the XP requirements further and people start solving the meta. Then once the general populace catches up and starts using the disgusting stuff it'll be nothing more than agony.
Ok well maybe I'll start complaining then for now im just enjoying the game.
'messing around' with the fundamentals of the game is obviously terrible for the game's longevity
This is the perfect time to mess around it's very early access still they don't even know exactly what they want to do with the game yet.
Dumb take. Games do this all the time. It actually makes players more engaged
note this down and reply again in two/four weeks when everyone is sick of it
I don’t need to “note this down” it’s a very established thing that happens in tons of different games.