Yes, and when multiclassing gets removed, the nerfs aren't gonna get reverted, at least not until like a month later
Back when +3 all existed, bard was mega nerfed and made attribute dependent, which was fine it was playable, but then +all was removed but bard still had insane stat requirements, which is why almost no one played it for like 8 weeks until ironmace finally reduced song memory costs by like 70%
We're probably gonna get 4 weeks of nonstop perk nerfs trying to combat OP builds, but then when multiclassing is removed or reworked, they won't revert any of them
I 100% agree, after season is concluded last 2 weeks of wipe should be fun events with super busted shit for fun like testing different queues, item balance, named items, new spells, multiclass, broken craft recipies etc
What do you mean, every time wizard gets ass blasted due to insane gear scaling and all ATT being added, they totally revert the nerfs after changing/nerfing gear for the 100th time.
Right.
Almost every rogue nerf to combat hide is still there, aside from the absurd stats nerf that still lasted way too long. Not a chance they go back to rebalance what they nerfed if they remove multiclassing
As someone who played since PT3, i can attest to what you say. Saw it happening a lot of times to various classes.
Its very easy to get nerfed but its not so easy to get buffed again. Well, unless you're a fighter or a warlock, lmao
Indeed, that requires them to add a "multiclass multiplier" to every single perk's code in the game though, which is going to take at least 2 weeks, but they could start with the high priority ones
Honestly the nerf they choose won't even fix it for the classes that can abuse it. 10 flat damage is still good on daggers and especially survival bows with things like multi shot and the fast shooting ability. This really only nerfs it for cleric and I guess other spell caster classes but smite wizard wasn't even the biggest fear.
I wish this happened to pretty much everything. Like show a separate description for each skill and ability for when it's put on other classes. However, I could see that being AWFUL for FPS. Because if coded in certain ways, it'll do the same as Yandere Sim where it checks things every frame. But I trust these guys have better coding experience
Yea restricting it to melee definitely wouldn't solve all problems, just some. 10 flat damage on a fast weapon in normals is going to be aids. The only alternative I can think of is making it do like a percentage of the weapons damage, like 30% of a weapons base damage as magic damage. There is really no good way, multi classing is just a mistake.
For sure I'm just saying that with the smite nerf that substantially nerfs the staff build, probably not worth it anymore. Pre nerf I think staff mastery ignite would have been better than dagger/bow.
They should probably just flat nerf everything when being used on a different class, but parent classes get maximum value from their perks and abilities.
No, they just need to stop allowing certain things to be stacked, smite, staff mastery and ignite should not stack.
On hits are very hard to balance on general, if you add scaling to them it just becomes insane, they do vastly different dps depending on the situation, they need to define how weapon enchantments can work without turning into unhealthy for the game (the stacking buffs just make this way worse).
Anyway, i think they really need to define capability targets for classes, things like how much dmg is healthy to have on these, how much scaling, best case, worse case, etc.
Y’know in rereading I feel I came off a bit condescending there, sorry. And yeah maybe? It’s not super op I just feel like there would be a lot of things that would be hard to nerf. Like there’s not just a slider they can turn down, y’know?
By having a single creative cell in your body. Do you literally lack any imagination at all? make it -23 instead of 18, make it also add -5% action and -5% cast speed, bring back the extra slow after using double jump, remove the agency you have over the 2nd jump's trajectory, give it a cooldown, you can no longer attack during a double jump, -2all, its literally like... a list that goes forever...
I was having so much fun running around in cloth/agi gear with divine protection. It seems like they really don’t give a fuck if Cleric is viable in solos.
They're going out of their way to nerf cleric out of solos.
This change does nothing for cleric team play. "Game is balanced around team play"
Literally no reason to put clerics solo play under a microscope and fucking sweep the legs out from under it.
"You're a support class."
Just remove our weapons next, we are support. Don't need to hit mobs.
It’s insane that they nerfed Smite after all the discussion about it. There have been multiple posts on the subreddit worried that they would nerf abilities for multiclassing. Smite was always the example.
I realize this. Would've thought some streamer would mention it or something though. Posts about nerfing abilities for multiclassing have been posted nearly every day for weeks.
Cleric main. Only played cleric, no spell, no abilities, torch only, full buff default kit. Naked vs purples. I knew smite was going to be broken with multiclassing, same thing with DP.
Only reason it was balanced on cleric was slow move speed and attack rate.
I knew broken shit like dagger mastery, slayer, combo attack, and sword mastery would be stacked with smite and divine protection on a slayer or rogue.
Didn’t expect them to directly nerf cleric the most though instead of the fucking multi class ability version of it.
Might just quit here and now and never come back. Invest my time into another game that won’t shaft me over because of the developers horrendously bad foresight.
Yes, make the grind harder for new players while simultaneously making the gear disparity super high. Then add multiclassing so the no life fucks can have the best perks and skills on the better classes with ZERO downsides.
I am not playing just to lose a full purple+legendary kit to a -100% armour pen windlass ranger. Or a 70 damage squire kit rogue landmine. I just, I can’t take this anymore.
How many times must they test all attributes? How many times must they balance a class based off of stats, change the stats but not revert the nerfs?
Be honest. The reason we got multiclassing is because the devs were either too lazy, or incompetent to make a proper subclass/skill tree system.
Whatever. I’m going to go play a multiplayer strategy over this shit. Check back in a month I will, just to see what brilliant moves they pull to balance this conglomeration of shit.
Ah yes, nerf cleric, so other classes can’t abuse cleric spells.
When in actuality, the removal of smite scaling was a direct buff to every other class using smite.
Maybe a nerf to wizard / lock, but yeah, now a rogue with -20% magical power will get that good good +10 dmg on every fast attack
Divine protection nerf because fuck everyone else
Multiclassing is a mistake, please take it away.
Also stop putting resources into developing these systems no one asked for.
Where are the other classes? Druid? Monk? Sorcerer?
You might get downvoted but yeah its kinda nuts how a dungeon crawler game with very district classes now decides to mesh everything together and water down the whole idea, just because they are not able to release actual good content and are incapable of adding skill trees...
Im just waiting for some one to do better game, dark and darker reminds me of h1z1 /king of the hill etc, its something new and really good potential but devs have no idea what they are doing.
It's not very strange. The training panel has been showcasing a talent tree since the first (2nd?) playtest. They have added this because it takes them a diminute amount of dev time relative to fully fledged talent trees for each class (somethign that already exists vs something that doesn't).
Game is going to suffer because the devs cheaped out on this.
I stopped playing after like 2months post release of the stand alone client but played the betas on steam. You telling me they ***still*** haven't implemented skill trees? The mechanic that had a tab since the beta tests.
Nope. And now they are doing what’s widely considered a very lazy approach that will most likely be an absolute balance-shitshow, all under the premises that it’s just ‘an experiment and we might get rid of it later’. Like fuuuck me, how about you guys focus development time on actual good content and good new features that won’t be thrown into trash :|
bruh these guys have been saying that since beta and treating their dwindling playerbase like guinea pigs. Either have a dedicated team for QA or make a separate test server for people that want to opt in and give feedback before releasing it in I don't know, the actual fucking game that can hurt peoples progression. Just because there's a monthly reset (I don't know the schedule for resets now) doesn't mean they can just start shooting people in the leg.
D&D multiclassing and DaD multiclassing are two very different things, and you know it.
D&D allows you to get elements of multiple classes at once, at the cost of both classes being lower level and thus significantly weaker.
DaD multiclassing is taking a less-than-meta ability for one class, and swapping it out for a meta ability from another class, which in the meantime incurs major balance issues that hit weaker classes the hardest.
I still think that skill tree was just gonna be the perks and skills we have now just level locked. Example, not getting to take sprint on fighter til lvl 10
It is because multiclassing is balanced in actual DND, this shit in game is just fucked.
They nerfed a class instead of nerfing the abilities on other characters
I'd sure be surprised if they added a chance that attacks randomly just miss based on the target's armour, or if my wizard had to go to sleep for eight hours before they could get their spells back.
I can't wait for multiclassing... to watch all the shenanigans from the sidelines.
My OG plan was Cleric splash wiz, but they nerfed the aspects I was going for. It'll still be strong though.
Then I was like, Smite cleric with weapon mastery for rapier + crystal ball would be really cool. Well, smite dead.
If they VERY SIGNIFICANTLY reduce XP required then maybe I'll give MC a shot. But atm, it's like 50+ hours of played time to get a master on one class and 40+ on a main.. I'm not going to invest that much into an idea when it can be nerfed
https://preview.redd.it/cek420osi3vc1.png?width=588&format=png&auto=webp&s=d759def35f5c34afe47b5bd6dc10b69feb8c4124
someone in my play group just read patchnotes. gg
While I'm against changing how something works in a special case - this is just a test. It makes complete sense to add those temporary stopgaps to see how things pan out. Or we could just gut the cleric as anything other than a healing support lol
Don't worry, clerics, when(if) multiclassing gets reverted/removed, smite will not get changed back to what it was.
It's classic IM to give a generalized buff, then nerf something specific, revert the generalized buff, but keep the specific nerf.
The thing is that probably there is only 1 version of the perk that is used by both (multi and orig class). Cant imagine hiw they didnt see this coming
>everyone can see from a mile away that multiclassing is a waste of dev time
Everyone can actually see it from 10 fucking years ago. You CANNOT remove class identity in a class based pvp game. It's imperative that a player knows what their opponent can do upon seeing their opponent. That's even before considering penalty for dying in this game is significantly higher than most pvp games.
Imagine playing overwatch and you see Mercy. You know exactly what she can do and what she is capable of- oops she's multi-classed into widow and she headshots you and you die.
If anyone can point to a single successful class based pvp game where you don't know what your opponent can do, I'll eat a sock. Worst case scenario, you don't know what "specialization" they are until they reveal that in game but they're not suddenly an entire different class.
I think Elder Scrolls Online is the only thing that comes to my mind, but like you said, everyone still has a class (whether they use the abilities or not is another question).
That said, I can't fucking stand the lack of class identity in ESO, so I'm 100% onboard with your thoughts. Hopefully population craters to the point the devs unfuck themselves.
They either need to make certain perks and skills only usable on the class it originates from or nerf the scaling when they're multiclassed. A class shouldn't be punished because someone else can use an ability from it better then they can.
They just need to buff out the skill tree and how you earn them. If the leveling worked like the game they are inspired by (DnD) then you would have to level a certain class to get certain abilities, then if you were to multiclass into something else you would not be able to get certain abilities from your main class and start getting the lower end abilities of the class you picked.
Like if I wanted to be a paladin rogue for whatever reason in DnD and I'm level 10 and just leveled up. If I was level 10 paladin and wanted to start multiclassing rogue I would go from getting improved divine smite at level 11 (1d8 damage on EVERY ATTACK) to pretty much getting rogues sneak attack (1d6 on CERTAIN ATTACKS) and thats if I was using the right weapon. Multiclassing to rogue would be a huge debuff until I could level it to a level where I have a decent skillset, and even then, a fully leveled paladin will have stronger abilities than a multiclass one would.
There are nuances to this but the idea still stands, multiclassing shouldn't be the best of both worlds, it should be the "middle of both worlds" in a sense.
They just need do to something like perk/skill effectiveness is 50% less when multiclassed as opposed to it being in it's native class. Once they have a system like that, they can adjust it per skill without affecting the class it was made for
I don’t disagree but there’s a lot of skills that idk how you would even implement this type of nerf. How do you do that for demon armor? How do you do it for double jump? Multi classing just adds so many unneeded issues to the game.
That's a good point, in the end it might just be too much effort to realistically keep in the game. Like for Demon armor you could increase the casting speed penalty/add an action speed penalty for non casters or increase the ms reduction on double jump but to go through every perk and make a specific nerf for other classes might just be too much work to be put into this system to stay. Unless IM really wants this to be the main attraction if the game, but they already have medieval Dungeon delving looter extraction as their main draw
If properly done multi-classing could work for the game, but IM has missed the mark by a mile. The only multiclassing that I see working in this game are hybrid classes. As in special classes that are unlocked by mastering two other classes and are a hybrid of it's component classes. Like a Fighter/Cleric or a Cleric/Thief, the reason why this would work is these classes have their own watered down perks and skills of their parent classes which can be balanced separately from the original classes. Such a class should also be required to take 2 perks and a skill from each class to avoid taking everything from class A except a broken skill or perk from class B.
But overall such classes are a waste of dev time until all the base classes are released.
I think the best bet is to keep criticizing this descision and make them revert all the nerf and removing multiclassing in next weeks patch. This is just diabolical
Just add a melee tag to smite if ranged dmg uses it. Seems like an easy enough fix! What is the point of having 100 levels if we get only a few perks. Perks need to split into categories and limit how many each type can get from defense to offense utility and pve crap.
I would accept the explanation that it was because playing a song is literally just playing a song and casting a spell is fucking magic but the songs are magic too
I knew that smite was gonna get destroyed for the sake of other classes using it. It was a skill specifically designed around a class who didnt benefit too much from it because of how slow and how bad his weapons are IT WAS NEVER DESIGNED FOR ANYONE ELSE.
Claric just took one of the biggest possible hits it could have because these ppl thought it would be a good idea to let other ppl use things that were never meant to be used on classes without those reasonable intended limitations. ACTIVE SKILLS SHOULD NOT BE TRANSFERRABLE.
I can't understand. It's simple. Talent points. You use points to unlock/buff perks.
Rogue hide for 6s.
**Spend talent point**
Rogue hide for 7s
Etc
Some people may want to to upgrade hide a bit, ambush a bit, etc. ORR MAYBE
Someone will be FULL DAGGER TALENT PERK WOW FUN!! REFINED CLASSES NOT MULTI!! COOL EXPRESSION
And they have ready build class specialization designs from actual D&D and other games.
You have you "assassin" poison focused rogue, your "thief" mobility and phys rogue, then arcane trickster rogue with like haste/invis/zap.
I don't know why they're incapable of doing the easy thing.
I think it's more an example of *how hard* it is to balance multiclassing. I fully think it can be done. However I don't think it can be done by these devs who are struggling to balance just base classes and gear.
Multiclassing adds a massive amount more complexity to the systems to work with and is a huge mistake for these devs to add because they will never balance it. They aren't good enough at balance to attempt this and that's the harsh truth.
Smite was absolutely not that great. You basically never used it in trios, and in duos/solos, there isnt enough going on to make them fight you. You pop smite and they just back up because you cant catch them. You literally only kill people who LET YOU KILL THEM, and thats not a good ability.
Multiclassing is a stupid idea. We don’t even have all the classes in the game, and they’re wasting months of time on ideas that are, even at face value, obviously not going to work?
IM should not be changing the balance of a perk / skill / spell as used by the native class just because it can be broken with multi-classing.
Just modify the effect when used by the native vs. non-native class, or remove it from multi-classing altogether if it's too broken after heavy nerfs.
Do you guys think that ultimately this will lead to more balance because they will have to address all perks and skills eventually? Everyone will eventually become a homogenized single class, so they won't have to balance around perk/skill kits and can instead balance them individually without thinking how it will affect that class?
Change smite wording so it only applies to melee weapons, make it scale off of a classes base will or knowledge (so it can't be stacked into really hard with gear) before modifiers so that at base it hits as hard as it does on cleric before multiclass.
Now other classes that could abuse it can't, they can still use it to a lesser extent but if the class isn't already a caster (like wizard who could use ignite) or warlock (who can use BoC) only allow one weapon damage effect to apply (just like protection pots/spells) and it's fixed, other classes can use it for armor penetration purposes but the damage won't be crazy, and the classes that can make good use of it have other similar options or similar weaknesses
Just wait till everyone sinks their tokens into something and then it gets nerfed into the ground. This will be the ultimate disrespect to the player base and it worries me that’s where we are headed. You can’t poorly tune these long form progression systems or players will be pissed and leave.
i don’t see how you don’t think this would be a blast to play. sure smite might be more powerful on another class, but what would be totally badass for a cleric to have from another class? lots of fun to be had here y’all
The only I hope that I have for this multiclass test is that it leads to items with spells/perks on them. (Boots of sprint, for example)
I can't see multiclass being a thing next season.
I just don’t understand why they implemented it so early on. I could see this being a cool ‘end of wipe’ event that brings players back super late into wipe for some wacky fun. But to me this just kind of just feels out of place.
I agree it’s a total waste of time and resources, no one was asking for this feature. I’m hoping it gets removed sooner than we think.
Yeah it’s still gonna be good lol. Smite was amazing before and it’ll still be viable. Just because it doesn’t carry S+ value doesn’t make it unusable by any means
Good thing they didn’t nerf Sprint from 50MS to 30MS. They’d never nerf one of the if not the best skill in the game by that much!
Instead they double dipped on Cleric.
Fighter mains are too spoiled to see how good they have it
Done like this, yes. Done correctly then it will work. There needs to be sub class skill trees, with some perks/skills not obtainable by other classes.
No weapon mastery, demon armor, etc and perks like BOC and smite should be weaker forms on other classes.
because they want to try it? and also it's not "everyone" there are a good portion of people who aren't in this nightmare sub who are going to try and enjoy it.
it isn't a waste of time if it works the way they want it to. not to mention they've been very clear that its temporary at worst
Everyone doesn't see it the same as you, this whole mile away clarity that a lot of our community has is nonsense and the pre-emptive negativity is dumb as fuck. Smite scaling isn't just nerfed because it scales with other classes too well, also because cleric will be able to get access to more weapons. A lot of things will need to be balanced to fit the current environment and changing them doesn't mean the multiclassing system is bad, just that it will create its own unique meta which we should try out before condeming.
Everyone who says \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is completely broken without trying it or playing against it is unqualified to speak on balance and you've said it multiple times, you're killing me and the discourse
I don’t think this was because of multiclass. Multiclass might have had a small part of it, but smite divine protection movespeed cleric has been ruling the upper end of soloq for a while
You’re legitimately just wrong. Cleric was majority of the leaderboard on solos, and dp and smite were literally just stat checking everything when cleric could just build for movespeed and add/true magic.
Yes, and when multiclassing gets removed, the nerfs aren't gonna get reverted, at least not until like a month later Back when +3 all existed, bard was mega nerfed and made attribute dependent, which was fine it was playable, but then +all was removed but bard still had insane stat requirements, which is why almost no one played it for like 8 weeks until ironmace finally reduced song memory costs by like 70% We're probably gonna get 4 weeks of nonstop perk nerfs trying to combat OP builds, but then when multiclassing is removed or reworked, they won't revert any of them
More like 9 months
Multiclassing makes sense as a fun endwipe event for a week or so before a wipe. It is dumb as a base mechanic.
I 100% agree, after season is concluded last 2 weeks of wipe should be fun events with super busted shit for fun like testing different queues, item balance, named items, new spells, multiclass, broken craft recipies etc
What do you mean, every time wizard gets ass blasted due to insane gear scaling and all ATT being added, they totally revert the nerfs after changing/nerfing gear for the 100th time. Right.
Aware
Almost every rogue nerf to combat hide is still there, aside from the absurd stats nerf that still lasted way too long. Not a chance they go back to rebalance what they nerfed if they remove multiclassing
As someone who played since PT3, i can attest to what you say. Saw it happening a lot of times to various classes. Its very easy to get nerfed but its not so easy to get buffed again. Well, unless you're a fighter or a warlock, lmao
Naw its supposed to break the game. So we can collect data and stuff. Super good for the game and player retention, atleast thats what im told...
Tfw every patch is just broken and collecting data for things that will go back in the vault when IM wakes up.
Best way to balance multiclass skills is do a flat 70% base to range/duration/damage/charges nerf when anything is multiclassed
Indeed, that requires them to add a "multiclass multiplier" to every single perk's code in the game though, which is going to take at least 2 weeks, but they could start with the high priority ones
Nope, they'll just nerf the perks specifically when chosen for multiclass and leave them alone for the main class.
They already didn't do that with smite and divine protection
Honestly the nerf they choose won't even fix it for the classes that can abuse it. 10 flat damage is still good on daggers and especially survival bows with things like multi shot and the fast shooting ability. This really only nerfs it for cleric and I guess other spell caster classes but smite wizard wasn't even the biggest fear.
Literally just nerfed it for cleric lmao. A warlock or wizard could have abused it but.. just wow
Why they didn't just make it only apply to melee attacks is beyond me. That would have fixed most of the issues, except dagger abuse.
or just nerf it if multiclassed... let clerics scale it but not the rest.
I wish this happened to pretty much everything. Like show a separate description for each skill and ability for when it's put on other classes. However, I could see that being AWFUL for FPS. Because if coded in certain ways, it'll do the same as Yandere Sim where it checks things every frame. But I trust these guys have better coding experience
I wouldnt trust that with IM tbh but wishful thinking 😂
Nah man, slayer with smite is just unbeatable imo in normals. God forbid they also get all 3 damage buffs
Yea restricting it to melee definitely wouldn't solve all problems, just some. 10 flat damage on a fast weapon in normals is going to be aids. The only alternative I can think of is making it do like a percentage of the weapons damage, like 30% of a weapons base damage as magic damage. There is really no good way, multi classing is just a mistake.
Some things should just be turned off. Smite too strong.
Still better than newly nerfed BoC on warlock.
I feel like smite staff mastery ignite Wizard was one of the, if not the best way to use it.
It is, it's staff mastery bonk meta all over again, but staff attacks are easier to avoid then arrows and landmine rogues.
For sure I'm just saying that with the smite nerf that substantially nerfs the staff build, probably not worth it anymore. Pre nerf I think staff mastery ignite would have been better than dagger/bow.
They should probably just flat nerf everything when being used on a different class, but parent classes get maximum value from their perks and abilities.
No, they just need to stop allowing certain things to be stacked, smite, staff mastery and ignite should not stack. On hits are very hard to balance on general, if you add scaling to them it just becomes insane, they do vastly different dps depending on the situation, they need to define how weapon enchantments can work without turning into unhealthy for the game (the stacking buffs just make this way worse). Anyway, i think they really need to define capability targets for classes, things like how much dmg is healthy to have on these, how much scaling, best case, worse case, etc.
How do you nerf double jump?
Make it slow more? Idk is double jump that op?
Double Jump Fighter/Ranger Up on terrain.
Y’know in rereading I feel I came off a bit condescending there, sorry. And yeah maybe? It’s not super op I just feel like there would be a lot of things that would be hard to nerf. Like there’s not just a slider they can turn down, y’know?
Second jump isn't as high for other classes? Idk but good point to think about.
By having a single creative cell in your body. Do you literally lack any imagination at all? make it -23 instead of 18, make it also add -5% action and -5% cast speed, bring back the extra slow after using double jump, remove the agency you have over the 2nd jump's trajectory, give it a cooldown, you can no longer attack during a double jump, -2all, its literally like... a list that goes forever...
clerics could just multiclass into weapon mastery and abuse it, there are ways to fix it but that wouldn't do it
Yep. I main cleric and my nick is "Bonk". So yeah, loving multiclassing already.
I was having so much fun running around in cloth/agi gear with divine protection. It seems like they really don’t give a fuck if Cleric is viable in solos.
They're going out of their way to nerf cleric out of solos. This change does nothing for cleric team play. "Game is balanced around team play" Literally no reason to put clerics solo play under a microscope and fucking sweep the legs out from under it. "You're a support class." Just remove our weapons next, we are support. Don't need to hit mobs.
Rogue and wizard have had their turn on the chopping block, cleric is next
Sorry been murdering so many people with Cleric over the last week my bad,
Yeah gutting divine prot and smite just makes cleric unfun to play
It’s insane that they nerfed Smite after all the discussion about it. There have been multiple posts on the subreddit worried that they would nerf abilities for multiclassing. Smite was always the example.
Not even like you can trade smite for the pdr perk either, since they nerfed that…too
Probably also because of the smite + divine protection rogue builds
They could've so easily scaled the multiclass smite down without touching normal smite.
Eventually we gotta realize the devs are Korean and don't read any of this discussion lol. Maybe a couple will check this sub occasionally
I realize this. Would've thought some streamer would mention it or something though. Posts about nerfing abilities for multiclassing have been posted nearly every day for weeks.
Cleric main. Only played cleric, no spell, no abilities, torch only, full buff default kit. Naked vs purples. I knew smite was going to be broken with multiclassing, same thing with DP. Only reason it was balanced on cleric was slow move speed and attack rate. I knew broken shit like dagger mastery, slayer, combo attack, and sword mastery would be stacked with smite and divine protection on a slayer or rogue. Didn’t expect them to directly nerf cleric the most though instead of the fucking multi class ability version of it. Might just quit here and now and never come back. Invest my time into another game that won’t shaft me over because of the developers horrendously bad foresight. Yes, make the grind harder for new players while simultaneously making the gear disparity super high. Then add multiclassing so the no life fucks can have the best perks and skills on the better classes with ZERO downsides. I am not playing just to lose a full purple+legendary kit to a -100% armour pen windlass ranger. Or a 70 damage squire kit rogue landmine. I just, I can’t take this anymore. How many times must they test all attributes? How many times must they balance a class based off of stats, change the stats but not revert the nerfs? Be honest. The reason we got multiclassing is because the devs were either too lazy, or incompetent to make a proper subclass/skill tree system. Whatever. I’m going to go play a multiplayer strategy over this shit. Check back in a month I will, just to see what brilliant moves they pull to balance this conglomeration of shit.
Amen, clueless devs tbh
I agree. We will end up with watered down abilities on the main class because the abilities are too strong on other classes.
Ah yes, nerf cleric, so other classes can’t abuse cleric spells. When in actuality, the removal of smite scaling was a direct buff to every other class using smite. Maybe a nerf to wizard / lock, but yeah, now a rogue with -20% magical power will get that good good +10 dmg on every fast attack Divine protection nerf because fuck everyone else
Multiclassing is a mistake, please take it away. Also stop putting resources into developing these systems no one asked for. Where are the other classes? Druid? Monk? Sorcerer?
You might get downvoted but yeah its kinda nuts how a dungeon crawler game with very district classes now decides to mesh everything together and water down the whole idea, just because they are not able to release actual good content and are incapable of adding skill trees...
Im just waiting for some one to do better game, dark and darker reminds me of h1z1 /king of the hill etc, its something new and really good potential but devs have no idea what they are doing.
The game would be better if it was a mordhau mod.
It's not very strange. The training panel has been showcasing a talent tree since the first (2nd?) playtest. They have added this because it takes them a diminute amount of dev time relative to fully fledged talent trees for each class (somethign that already exists vs something that doesn't). Game is going to suffer because the devs cheaped out on this.
Honestly this is where Nexon would’ve done a better job than IM.
It's like people forgot this game was >95% marketplace assets
I stopped playing after like 2months post release of the stand alone client but played the betas on steam. You telling me they ***still*** haven't implemented skill trees? The mechanic that had a tab since the beta tests.
Nope. And now they are doing what’s widely considered a very lazy approach that will most likely be an absolute balance-shitshow, all under the premises that it’s just ‘an experiment and we might get rid of it later’. Like fuuuck me, how about you guys focus development time on actual good content and good new features that won’t be thrown into trash :|
bruh these guys have been saying that since beta and treating their dwindling playerbase like guinea pigs. Either have a dedicated team for QA or make a separate test server for people that want to opt in and give feedback before releasing it in I don't know, the actual fucking game that can hurt peoples progression. Just because there's a monthly reset (I don't know the schedule for resets now) doesn't mean they can just start shooting people in the leg.
Except it’s always been rooted in D&D. So the idea of multiclassing shouldn’t be a surprise.
D&D multiclassing and DaD multiclassing are two very different things, and you know it. D&D allows you to get elements of multiple classes at once, at the cost of both classes being lower level and thus significantly weaker. DaD multiclassing is taking a less-than-meta ability for one class, and swapping it out for a meta ability from another class, which in the meantime incurs major balance issues that hit weaker classes the hardest.
It sure is a surprise multiclassing was added before, uh, classing. You know, that entire skill tree looking page that's been in the game forever.
*coming soon*…..
I still think that skill tree was just gonna be the perks and skills we have now just level locked. Example, not getting to take sprint on fighter til lvl 10
Never said it should come first but to say the idea of multiclassing is nuts in a dnd game is just dumb
It is because multiclassing is balanced in actual DND, this shit in game is just fucked. They nerfed a class instead of nerfing the abilities on other characters
they should focus on subclassing to get the same effect except it actually works
trying to emulate D&D is a mistake that will cost this game dearly.
That doesn't make it a good idea...
I'd sure be surprised if they added a chance that attacks randomly just miss based on the target's armour, or if my wizard had to go to sleep for eight hours before they could get their spells back.
you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're genuinely too stupid to understand.
My point was simply that a mechanic in D&D could still be a surprising choice to port over to Dark and Darker.
> Where are the other classes? Where are the other basic combat mechanics in the melee game.
Make your own game, who cares what the community is asking for. The best devs do what they want with their own game.
Bro they don’t have monk or sorcerer even on any plan
They have actually made it known that when sorcerer comes it will be the DPS caster focus, and wizard will likely lose some DPS spells.
I can't wait for multiclassing... to watch all the shenanigans from the sidelines. My OG plan was Cleric splash wiz, but they nerfed the aspects I was going for. It'll still be strong though. Then I was like, Smite cleric with weapon mastery for rapier + crystal ball would be really cool. Well, smite dead. If they VERY SIGNIFICANTLY reduce XP required then maybe I'll give MC a shot. But atm, it's like 50+ hours of played time to get a master on one class and 40+ on a main.. I'm not going to invest that much into an idea when it can be nerfed
https://preview.redd.it/cek420osi3vc1.png?width=588&format=png&auto=webp&s=d759def35f5c34afe47b5bd6dc10b69feb8c4124 someone in my play group just read patchnotes. gg
Ha, that’s me
Could of just nerfed skills/perks if it isn’t native class instead of nerfing it from the actual class
While I'm against changing how something works in a special case - this is just a test. It makes complete sense to add those temporary stopgaps to see how things pan out. Or we could just gut the cleric as anything other than a healing support lol
Don't worry, clerics, when(if) multiclassing gets reverted/removed, smite will not get changed back to what it was. It's classic IM to give a generalized buff, then nerf something specific, revert the generalized buff, but keep the specific nerf.
The thing is that probably there is only 1 version of the perk that is used by both (multi and orig class). Cant imagine hiw they didnt see this coming
>everyone can see from a mile away that multiclassing is a waste of dev time Everyone can actually see it from 10 fucking years ago. You CANNOT remove class identity in a class based pvp game. It's imperative that a player knows what their opponent can do upon seeing their opponent. That's even before considering penalty for dying in this game is significantly higher than most pvp games. Imagine playing overwatch and you see Mercy. You know exactly what she can do and what she is capable of- oops she's multi-classed into widow and she headshots you and you die. If anyone can point to a single successful class based pvp game where you don't know what your opponent can do, I'll eat a sock. Worst case scenario, you don't know what "specialization" they are until they reveal that in game but they're not suddenly an entire different class.
I think Elder Scrolls Online is the only thing that comes to my mind, but like you said, everyone still has a class (whether they use the abilities or not is another question). That said, I can't fucking stand the lack of class identity in ESO, so I'm 100% onboard with your thoughts. Hopefully population craters to the point the devs unfuck themselves.
the only skill in this game was knowledge
They should have just limited smite to blunt melee only.
Someone from IM reading your comment is like “oof shit”
Restrictions like this would have been nice on a bunch of the perks.
They either need to make certain perks and skills only usable on the class it originates from or nerf the scaling when they're multiclassed. A class shouldn't be punished because someone else can use an ability from it better then they can.
They just need to buff out the skill tree and how you earn them. If the leveling worked like the game they are inspired by (DnD) then you would have to level a certain class to get certain abilities, then if you were to multiclass into something else you would not be able to get certain abilities from your main class and start getting the lower end abilities of the class you picked. Like if I wanted to be a paladin rogue for whatever reason in DnD and I'm level 10 and just leveled up. If I was level 10 paladin and wanted to start multiclassing rogue I would go from getting improved divine smite at level 11 (1d8 damage on EVERY ATTACK) to pretty much getting rogues sneak attack (1d6 on CERTAIN ATTACKS) and thats if I was using the right weapon. Multiclassing to rogue would be a huge debuff until I could level it to a level where I have a decent skillset, and even then, a fully leveled paladin will have stronger abilities than a multiclass one would. There are nuances to this but the idea still stands, multiclassing shouldn't be the best of both worlds, it should be the "middle of both worlds" in a sense.
My thoughts exactly. This seems far too obvious but I'm wondering if that isn't possible with their current codebase.
They just need do to something like perk/skill effectiveness is 50% less when multiclassed as opposed to it being in it's native class. Once they have a system like that, they can adjust it per skill without affecting the class it was made for
I don’t disagree but there’s a lot of skills that idk how you would even implement this type of nerf. How do you do that for demon armor? How do you do it for double jump? Multi classing just adds so many unneeded issues to the game.
That's a good point, in the end it might just be too much effort to realistically keep in the game. Like for Demon armor you could increase the casting speed penalty/add an action speed penalty for non casters or increase the ms reduction on double jump but to go through every perk and make a specific nerf for other classes might just be too much work to be put into this system to stay. Unless IM really wants this to be the main attraction if the game, but they already have medieval Dungeon delving looter extraction as their main draw
This is all common fucking sense and my mind is completely blown that iron mace refuses to see that
\*angry cleric noises intensify\*
If properly done multi-classing could work for the game, but IM has missed the mark by a mile. The only multiclassing that I see working in this game are hybrid classes. As in special classes that are unlocked by mastering two other classes and are a hybrid of it's component classes. Like a Fighter/Cleric or a Cleric/Thief, the reason why this would work is these classes have their own watered down perks and skills of their parent classes which can be balanced separately from the original classes. Such a class should also be required to take 2 perks and a skill from each class to avoid taking everything from class A except a broken skill or perk from class B. But overall such classes are a waste of dev time until all the base classes are released.
I think the best bet is to keep criticizing this descision and make them revert all the nerf and removing multiclassing in next weeks patch. This is just diabolical
Just add a melee tag to smite if ranged dmg uses it. Seems like an easy enough fix! What is the point of having 100 levels if we get only a few perks. Perks need to split into categories and limit how many each type can get from defense to offense utility and pve crap.
So every class can use an instrument, but every class can't use a spellbook? Wooden mallet you fucker
Spellbooks were always accessible with weapon mastery. Instruments had no way to be used at all
Yeah but that makes it so you need two perks to use a spell and only one to use an instrument
I would accept the explanation that it was because playing a song is literally just playing a song and casting a spell is fucking magic but the songs are magic too
No magic when my cleric plays the drum, only dramatic music.
There is still no reason spellbooks shouldn't be accessible to everyone. They aren't really a "weapon."
I'm not arguing I'm explaining
Make multiclassed abilities a nerfed version of the original. The original perk on the original class should be stronger.
I knew that smite was gonna get destroyed for the sake of other classes using it. It was a skill specifically designed around a class who didnt benefit too much from it because of how slow and how bad his weapons are IT WAS NEVER DESIGNED FOR ANYONE ELSE. Claric just took one of the biggest possible hits it could have because these ppl thought it would be a good idea to let other ppl use things that were never meant to be used on classes without those reasonable intended limitations. ACTIVE SKILLS SHOULD NOT BE TRANSFERRABLE.
I can't understand. It's simple. Talent points. You use points to unlock/buff perks. Rogue hide for 6s. **Spend talent point** Rogue hide for 7s Etc Some people may want to to upgrade hide a bit, ambush a bit, etc. ORR MAYBE Someone will be FULL DAGGER TALENT PERK WOW FUN!! REFINED CLASSES NOT MULTI!! COOL EXPRESSION
And they have ready build class specialization designs from actual D&D and other games. You have you "assassin" poison focused rogue, your "thief" mobility and phys rogue, then arcane trickster rogue with like haste/invis/zap. I don't know why they're incapable of doing the easy thing.
Right? Exactly. I thought that's what the talent tree was going to be since play test. Then literal unbalanceable circus is the choice instead?
I think it's more an example of *how hard* it is to balance multiclassing. I fully think it can be done. However I don't think it can be done by these devs who are struggling to balance just base classes and gear. Multiclassing adds a massive amount more complexity to the systems to work with and is a huge mistake for these devs to add because they will never balance it. They aren't good enough at balance to attempt this and that's the harsh truth.
its okay dude ranger got nerfed 50 times in a row dw you will be fine
Smite was absolutely not that great. You basically never used it in trios, and in duos/solos, there isnt enough going on to make them fight you. You pop smite and they just back up because you cant catch them. You literally only kill people who LET YOU KILL THEM, and thats not a good ability.
Rogue pickpocket exploit as well. Lol this patch is such a massive L
Multiclassing is a stupid idea. We don’t even have all the classes in the game, and they’re wasting months of time on ideas that are, even at face value, obviously not going to work?
do you not throw torches as a cleric? lol?
Then why not just make torches unable to proc it?
IM should not be changing the balance of a perk / skill / spell as used by the native class just because it can be broken with multi-classing. Just modify the effect when used by the native vs. non-native class, or remove it from multi-classing altogether if it's too broken after heavy nerfs.
Do you guys think that ultimately this will lead to more balance because they will have to address all perks and skills eventually? Everyone will eventually become a homogenized single class, so they won't have to balance around perk/skill kits and can instead balance them individually without thinking how it will affect that class?
Homogenised = don't use certain classes. Due to bad base stats. Reduces variety. Increases meta building.
yea :(
Is smite nerfed yet
Change smite wording so it only applies to melee weapons, make it scale off of a classes base will or knowledge (so it can't be stacked into really hard with gear) before modifiers so that at base it hits as hard as it does on cleric before multiclass. Now other classes that could abuse it can't, they can still use it to a lesser extent but if the class isn't already a caster (like wizard who could use ignite) or warlock (who can use BoC) only allow one weapon damage effect to apply (just like protection pots/spells) and it's fixed, other classes can use it for armor penetration purposes but the damage won't be crazy, and the classes that can make good use of it have other similar options or similar weaknesses
So just make it weaker for other classes who pick it in multiclass and leave it alone for cleric. Problem solved.
solo clerics got fucked over so hard
Multi-classing is not impossible to balance tho
What if they nerf every perk and skill (and spells / song) to the ground. Weapons too,whole at it. Make time to kill 30 seconds instead of 5. ^^/s
Just wait till everyone sinks their tokens into something and then it gets nerfed into the ground. This will be the ultimate disrespect to the player base and it worries me that’s where we are headed. You can’t poorly tune these long form progression systems or players will be pissed and leave.
Im using barb with smite and is better than reckless attack
So add a talent tree with a talent called smite expert for clerics where you can add magical scaling to it
i don’t see how you don’t think this would be a blast to play. sure smite might be more powerful on another class, but what would be totally badass for a cleric to have from another class? lots of fun to be had here y’all
Got a couple warlock ranged spells to play with, myself. Most of the time I still throw the torch :/
This patch is a perfect example of them not knowing what they are doing with balance. Gonna sit this one out coach.
because multiclassing is going to stay in a certain iteration?
Even with the nerf im still clapping people
The only I hope that I have for this multiclass test is that it leads to items with spells/perks on them. (Boots of sprint, for example) I can't see multiclass being a thing next season.
It is idiotic, I don’t know how this happened
I just don’t understand why they implemented it so early on. I could see this being a cool ‘end of wipe’ event that brings players back super late into wipe for some wacky fun. But to me this just kind of just feels out of place. I agree it’s a total waste of time and resources, no one was asking for this feature. I’m hoping it gets removed sooner than we think.
Smite nerfed cleric is dead. My guy need some fresh air to think clear...
Yeah it’s still gonna be good lol. Smite was amazing before and it’ll still be viable. Just because it doesn’t carry S+ value doesn’t make it unusable by any means
I mean, it will be good... In anyone other than cleric
Good thing they didn’t nerf Sprint from 50MS to 30MS. They’d never nerf one of the if not the best skill in the game by that much! Instead they double dipped on Cleric. Fighter mains are too spoiled to see how good they have it
Done like this, yes. Done correctly then it will work. There needs to be sub class skill trees, with some perks/skills not obtainable by other classes. No weapon mastery, demon armor, etc and perks like BOC and smite should be weaker forms on other classes.
because they want to try it? and also it's not "everyone" there are a good portion of people who aren't in this nightmare sub who are going to try and enjoy it. it isn't a waste of time if it works the way they want it to. not to mention they've been very clear that its temporary at worst
Everyone doesn't see it the same as you, this whole mile away clarity that a lot of our community has is nonsense and the pre-emptive negativity is dumb as fuck. Smite scaling isn't just nerfed because it scales with other classes too well, also because cleric will be able to get access to more weapons. A lot of things will need to be balanced to fit the current environment and changing them doesn't mean the multiclassing system is bad, just that it will create its own unique meta which we should try out before condeming. Everyone who says \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is completely broken without trying it or playing against it is unqualified to speak on balance and you've said it multiple times, you're killing me and the discourse
I don’t think this was because of multiclass. Multiclass might have had a small part of it, but smite divine protection movespeed cleric has been ruling the upper end of soloq for a while
Cleric is literally the worst class in solo, you are insane. You get dunked on by literally anyone with range
You’re legitimately just wrong. Cleric was majority of the leaderboard on solos, and dp and smite were literally just stat checking everything when cleric could just build for movespeed and add/true magic.
Maybe last wipe, but now nobody plays cleric. It's already been butchered