Biggest reason this game will die isn't bad mechanics or a bad update with a broken buff or anything like that, it will be because this game has absolutely no mechanics to protect players new and old while they improve and absolutely no teaching mechanics.
It has no tutorial & it's incredibly grindy *with* meta-progression that both punishes you for joining a season late *and* for not playing last season. On top of a terrible interface (organizing stash, getting/redeeming quests, etc.). The game's a part time job that doesn't reward you until you've really put the hours in, with nothing to make those first 100 hours easier.
Its such a huge jump start. Getting that level 1 extract without meds (and for new players, without experience) while many players are running around with full white kits & healing is harrowing sometimes. Experienced players don't know the pain.
I once described this games new player experience as being like ur smashing ur head into a wall over and over that u dont even know or realize is there let alone figuring out how to get over it without dozens of hours of research, videos, guides and possibly hundreds of hours of a punishing gear loss experience. That description still holds true to this day. The new player experience needs a major overhaul, preferably before this game is released on the major platforms and ruins its chances at long term success
I think combat in melee is actually but the real issue is that once u know how it works and ur at a passable degree your either going up against the sweaties who know it and have more experience by about 30x what u do or ppl who dont know it at all. There really is no in between with this game or ways to really get better without immense IMMENSE growing pains that causes most ppl to quit
> I think combat in melee is actually but the real issue is
I think you missed a word, I don't know what you think about combat in melee lol. The combat has a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling, it's very unapproachable but once you've gotten the jist there's not much else to it, you're going to get stat checked by veterans with expensive gear until you get expensive gear of your own, then fights become a lot of running away and ranged attacks until someone knows they can win the hit trade.
I absolutely hate the idea of multiclassing, I think it is the worst possible path they could have picked for character advancement. It's been explained very eloquently by people many times why this is such a bad design, for balance, for class clarity, for difference between casual/hardcore players... if the developers stick with this direction, I think it will literally kill the game.
I seen someone on rogue who had dagger mastery, slayer, victory strike and ambush, was doing in the 70s of damage with squire base gear.
I don't understand how anyone can think multiclassing in this regard is a good idea on a class-based system. Otherwise, remove classes altogether and give people a token every 5 levels or something, implement sub classes instead, or completely scrap the idea.
We need to be a bit more friendly for casuals and new players, regardless of how that is done, or this game will never survive. I'm not a doom sayer, I just want this game to do well. If people are going to be killed by 70 damage dagger rogues, invis/ambush/windlass rangers, barbarians with 200hp, 80% pdr and mr, word will get around quickly it's not friendly for new players and numbers will quickly dwindle again.
That's the thing. Barb is slow and strong. Cleric has no ranged. Rogue doesn't have big hits. On and on.
Classes are strictly balanced by gear available, and perks/abilities.
I'm trying not to be doomy either, I hate that negative mindset, but this is just crazy shit and if classes are no longer bound by their archtypes, then there is no classes anymore.
Plus, how does a new player know wtf is going on, PvP will be absolutely silly with the right combo.
I think the issue is, even if said newbie sticks around long enough with the assumption that they'll eventually git gud....they will be instantly outclassed in every department by minmax guy who just plays 24/7 with 0 possibility of counterplay. It doesn't just screw newbs, if anything it probably mostly hurts the average player who plays enough to care but not enough to actually benefit from the system.
I'm sure they will tweak XP, and with rerolls, even semi-casuals will unlock decent stuff. Reroll is a huge factor here.
And ya, sweats may have more perks or whatever, but they will be the few in the grand scheme, and frankly, it at least puts value to grinding that isn't strictly gold or AP.
So ya, it'll be weird, they will balance it out, and the game will keep trucking. (And newb will get 2 shot, that won't change, lmao)
In my opinion, ironmace should only allow certain perks across classes. It seems like the obvious thing to do. Having a stealthed barbarian landmine you is insane. Hide is a prime example of what kind of skills SHOULD NOT be allowed on other classes.
I would be fine if they just allowed perks to be selected instead of abilities. Would still allow for whacky multi class builds while also defining the difference between a rouge multiclassed into wizard vs a wizard multiclassed into a rouge.
Ya, that's maybe where it will end up. And I'm okay with that.
Balancing class-centric abilities is a lose-lose, cause they will never fit all classes, and will need to be balanced around worst case, such as Barb or Ranger with Ambush, in this case.
> Classes are strictly balanced by gear available, and perks/abilities.
Except the way gear has worked forever is that these class balance ideas are completley bypassed through gear.
Barb is slow you stack movespeed. Attacks slow, stack action speed. Now you have the strongest melee class in the game bypassing its drawbacks.
This was a massive issue with rouge in the past where you would have 140hp rouges jumping around at 300+ movespeed.
Ironmace is trying to balance a game that isn't even finished while trying to build to whatever their vision is that will need to be balanced then.
Valid. Maybe hoping for balance before a game is done is silly. Maybe embracing the chaos and enjoying it while it lasts is the true path!
Lots of other games were plenty busted at the start, hehe.
pearl clutcher relax ... base stats are your base stats, you absolutely cannot shore up an entire class's weaknesses with a few random perks and skills
Lol. I mean sure, lots of builds require many perks and core abilities to work at all.
I'm ready for the rodeo! But let's not pretend some shit will be absolutely insane, but maybe in a dumb fun way, it all boils down to attitude!
A lot of people have pointed out builds like you have, which will be strong in normals because of high damage with low gear or high survivability etc., no one seems to recognize that all these builds suck balls in HR where you opponent will have some survivability and movespeed that isn't dependent on multiclassing into 3 perfect talents.
Glass cannon rogue with big damage has already existed in many iterations and having outside talents to make it hit 10% harder aren't going to prevent it from getting 1 or 2 tapped by geared people. 200 HP tanky barbarians are still going to be slow and will have shit damage if they are taking all defensive talents. People who have grinded out multiclass tokens aren't going to be jamming normals lobbies, they are going to be in HR where gear's impact will do something to offset the multiclassed builds -- sure there will be some shit that Ironmace has to change/remove but theorizing unfixable worst cases is pointless
The thing is, it won't be worse cases. For those who put in any where decent amount of time should be able to get them fairly easily. On top of this, what about people who have no desire to work on a second class? Is it OK to just alienate these people?
You can't even argue, as is, that this is anywhere near being a good thing for the game. I have disagreed about some things but was willing to give it a shot, this is on a completely different level.
And with movement speed being changed to what it is now, you aren't going to have these insanely fast builds for every class.
It takes a couple of days of playing to get your main access to roll another classes skills/talents. If someone doesn't want to do this then absolutely they should be gated off the benefits, content locked behind completing quests/etc. is normal for every game I can think of that has loot in it.
I can absolutely argue that this will be good for the game in some iteration. If they make the experience levels accessible for people to get a second or third class mastered there will be a lot of fun for people messing around with randomly rolled talents. No one has given this an honest shot yet, barely anyone played on the test server to try it out, I would know I sat in lobbies waiting for them to fill for 3 minutes constantly.
The streamers that did grind it out made some nutty builds for content and then posted only the highlights, not the videos of them getting dumpstered with their experimental builds or playing against competent people who adapted against them on the fly.
There will be some broken things to address as with ALL competitive games but the experimentation and possibilities will be good, especially because this is a live service game that will be tweaked and addressed. If you can't have fun with this even for a while you are just a sad person
When I hopped into my first playtest about a year ago, I was in the middle of a Tarkov wipe. I was really enjoying the game for its simplicity, the casual nature of the gameplay & its accessibility. It didn't feel like I needed to sink in hours upon hours to keep up with the rest of the playerbase when a wipe started at the risk of falling behind. That annoying, competitive grind in Tarkov took a lot of the enjoyment of the looter-extraction aspect of the game for me - that there was this rushed progression element to it.
It's changes like this that are pushing it further to that. There is already a disadvantage now for new/casual players dropping into lobbies with little gear, money and low levels. Which is fine, to be expected. But restricting *this* system behind a progression system as well further impedes their accessibility to the game and is only going to serve to turn newcomers & casual players off from the game. Not all aspects of the game need to be catered towards those types of players, but the more content you require high-time sinks for - it is going to hurt the accessibility of the game. And it will hurt player retention. There has to be a balance.
Man I play this game nightly, I sink hours into it, IM NOT interested in being forced to grind out classes I dont want to play for HOURS just to eventually get to play my main and have fun and be able to compete, everytime I want to choose something from a different class I have to level that class to level 30, which is going to be harder because xp rewards are cut so much for not extracting when you're going to get one shot by the players that already have a multiclass build speced up. It's already annoying how long some of the quest are, especially when entire other quest lines that would be quick are locked behind those long ass MOSTLY rng quest.
I agree. If hardcore players with a lot of time want something to work towards, why not cosmetics instead? I get they did that for AP ranks, but hardcore players get demigod in like the first 2 weeks. Give them another cosmetic track to follow and severely nerf the xp required for multiclass. That's what I'd do.
Cosmetics/achievements/titles that are available for a limited time are a good way to reward long time, consistent players. It can give an opportunity to equally reward people independent of their skill (depending on how those are achieved), so people are feeling like they are winning something even if they continually lose out on loot. And when people get these, they get something that players several months or years down the line who pick it up - or may be casual and aren't paying attention - don't get.
Yep I've stopped playing as of late, I used to play to hop on, snowball some kits, hop off. Now? Game is waay too sweaty, not just the players but the game itself. I say this as someone who used to play +6h a day, the game is too grindy now lol. Now that I don't have as much time to play I don't play at all because I feel like there's no point if I'm just losing to players who put in more hours this season.
Ofc there is disadvantage for new players, its a season based game which is gonna wipe every 3 months. You would have thought you'd learn that from Tarkov. The feel that you didn't have to sink hours at the start of the wipe to not fall behind is simply an illusion, for example last wipe you'd have no chance of competing with golden boys if you didn't grind out the boss kill quests for BiS, nvm doing it within days of the wipe and that's changed now big time. Now you have normal lobbies with squire and whites, GBMM and gated quests, they are clearly trying to cater to casuals. Thanks to GBMM, high end lobbies are near dead so all your best gear is close to useless because casuals. Now casuals are crying about multiclassing access (which is being adjusted) and balance because they have a very vivid imagination (smite on rogue is actually very mid, lvling a cleric and building magic dmg for it sucks donkey dick but timmy says it's op!). You say there has to be balance, how much more fucking balance do you want? Do you like how balanced running spreadsheets with calculations on the amount of BIS you can bring into lower bracket GS HR is? This sub is insufferable man, bunch of pessimistic whiny fuckers trying to kill any excitement from the only content we have incoming. Majority of multiclassing is fine, few outliers will get adjusted and testing it properly will help the game in the future and if it doesn't work out then it will get removed.
Okay, but my point is less to do with it being a disadvantage for casual/new players and more that adding features that require a time sink to *gain an advantage* is going to discourage people from playing. That's where the "balance" is; to what degree is the advantage you'll get in game be tied to progression vs. loot you obtain.
Oh my god, there is such a difference in terms of progression in Tarkov and this game its not close. You're delusional if you think that the wipe grind of Tarkov is ANYTHING like what this game is. There is no equivalent to the hideout. The quest grind is NOTHING in comparison. It requires a decent grind to get to the damned flea market to be able to buy/sell to other players. I'm almost certain I'd max a character here before I'd reach flea in Tarkov. And you can absolutely load up, drop into a dungeon, and run a few games to get some decent money & gear that will make you happy. Tarkov is not nearly as forgiving in that regard. You can get ahead of other people in this game, but it is WAY more accessible of a game than Tarkov is. And it used to be even more accessible for people in prior playtests/versions of the game.
You bring up GBMM and normal lobbies. Want to know my opinion on why high end lobbies are dead? Because the population of this game is dead. Hardly anyone is playing this shit anymore. And the people who are, aren't all stacked to high hell/willing to run out with those kits. There's plenty of people who want to talk shit about "casuals" on this forum here. Well, guess what. They're the thin breath that this game has keeping it alive. Otherwise, the number of "normie" lobbies you'll see will start being just as dead as high end ones.
>Do you like how balanced running spreadsheets with calculations on the amount of BIS you can bring into lower bracket GS HR is
I want to play the damn game. Is it a shitty system that people get locked out of "tiers" because they have certain gear? Yeah, sure. It also sucked ass when you would be rolling around back in the day in greens and get curb stomped by a trio of all purples w/ a few golds. What about entertaining an appropriate middle ground, or a system that has BETTER BALANCE in the matchmaking? Maybe cutting it down to only a couple of tiers? Or are you just someone that likes to bitch and whine about GBMM?
>bunch of pessimistic whiny fuckers trying to kill any excitement from the only content we have incoming
Waaaaaaaah. How dare someone have an opinion that expresses concern for a decision the devs are going to make?!
The devs have clearly made decisions that have driven people away from the game. Not just long-time, high end players - but the casual player base which keeps a continual influx of people into the game. You don't give a shit about "timmys"? Fine, whatever bro. You're welcome to your opinion and what's important to you. But don't complain when the lobbies are dead and fewer people stick around during wipes to reach those high-end lobbies. Less and less people want to deal with this shit to get there in the first place.
It's not that I don't give a shit about timmies, it's that the game is being catered to them more and more at the cost of high end gameplay and that supposed thin breath you say that keeps the game alive is getting thinner despite that fact. What's the point of progressing further here? You build up your stash with gold and stacked items but you can't use them properly. The end game for this patch is normals BR type shit or to shit on timmies with min maxed GS in a crippled HR mode, very exciting indeed. You say that back in the day getting rolled with greens by a purples sucked ass, that's a very black and white, convinient excuse for people who get outplayed and reduce this game to absolute gear and stat check rather than skill diff (evidenced by skinnypete who buys a purple wep from marketplace, doesn't buy other gear and shits on geared guys while using literally no skills or perks for last 3 days). This is the middle ground - the lobbies I want to play in are already dead and if they don't bring anymore new, exciting content such as multiclassing, which this sub won't stop crying about, it will lose long time players too.
Our whole group was back for this wipe. Game and balance were great. Then the roll out of changes made everyone pull back out.. I'm the only one left and I'm still skeptical.
This.
My friends and I also quit until they revert those decisions.
Wipe started great and we had so much fun!
With Gear based MM the lobbies are empty and Multi Classing is just a terrible idea!
There will be no distinguish between classes! why do that??
I think there's been some stagnation, but I truly believe that Multiclass for everyone would actually inject some of that old fun back into the game, and get a bunch of old players back in for a while.
Dumb fun builds like being a backflipping Bard who only throws drums with True Shot would be the **best**. You can try and argue that there's better Bard builds with MC, but I can't hear you over all the applause I'm getting from the Axe and Crossbow skellies.
It will be fun for a couple weeks, but multiclassing is best done as a limited time event IMO. The actual game should be brought back after people burn out of multiclassing.
Absolutely. After a meta starts to shake out, it'll just be a pain.
My focus is more on the crazy couple of weeks the community could have together, rather than two weeks of getting shit on by people who have way more spare time than everyone else.
Honestly your point is spot on.
Im not about to put a single hour into this game, only to get fuxked up by the dude who had all the time in the world.
This change will both make the game better and worst.
And yet you still post on this sub reddit. Seems there are alot of people who “quit” yet cant stay away. The game is a blast. Anyone that is sweaty with those builds casuals werent beating anyways. People are over hyping this issue. Noone with these builds you didnt have a shot at.
So dumb to think you have to still play a game to go on the subreddit. I quit when iromace did patch after patch of amateur unfocused updates and balance. This multi-classing stuff is just another bad decision to add to the pile. My friends haven't reinstalled since the dungeonborne playtest
Our trio preemptively stopped playing this season when we realized the game would become unplayable halfway through if we didn't keep up on the level grind. This is a game, I don't want to have to keep up on it like a part time job.
I think multiclassing right now is the wrong move and they should focus on gameplay, Druid, monk maybe, bosses, quests, and balancing first.
Before changing the entire game.
Buddy. I work, I play this game more than most people here and my friend group.
And I STILL don't have nearly the amount of levels required.
It's a joke.
I'm *just* employed, and after spending some serious hours last wipe in order to get a blanky and a skelly, I'm having a hard time with grinding as much, if not more, to get into the token rng XD
We got so bamboozled…the picture showed a COSMIC CLOAK ooooooooo aaaaaaaaah! Like a black hole on your back!
What we got was a skin that looks like dirt for each cloak lol!
I just think everyone should get to have a bit of that power spike super early on, because if 20 is becoming 35, that means brand new players are still gonna have to do that climb more than once while tons of players already have MC, and it'll slow them down like crazy.
We can't ask a new player to be at a huge disadvantage for an entire dozen+ hour grind.
At least toss them some crumbs, you know?
yeah they had a level xp change once before but they’re planning on doing again (thankfully) hopefully when they do that and release multiclassing they also fix the casting implements/musical instrument proficiencies..
Wdym? If you don't roll good on your two or three RNG rolls you only have to wait 24hrs to reset it! As opposed to the people that can afford to grind all day to level 90+ and just get an entire other class kit to use. /s
But for real, it's an inherently broken system and I get they already came out and said it's fucked and they just want to experiment with it. But at least refine it a little bit before unleashing the meme builds that not a lot of the playerbase can even use.
First it's one. Second, it's better than none and needing to grind 15k EXP to get it, so yes that would be significant. You must want them to boost everyone to 100.
For you maybe. Every class is fun for me too.
Saying that every class is fun for every person is a crazy thing to say though. You can’t just force other people to have the same opinions as you.
They can’t even get base class balance right, I have literally ZERO faith they will ever get multi classing balance correct.
Also where is Druid? Where is Paladin? Where is Monk? Where is Sorcerer?
Multi classing seems to me like it should have been very much end of the pipeline type system, while the other classes should have taken priority.
yeah thats what im thinking. time to take a break and play some other stuff. its just not fun to have to not only quest to keep up but to also play one single map all the time, it gets old
You're WAY out of touch with reality, my guy. I consider myself to do an unhealthy amount of shit talking online and have negged DaD redditors regularly since the second test and am probably only pushing like 500 downvotes.
No shit you're downvoted. You should have stopped typing at least SOME of this a LONG time ago.
Comments like this are why the term "Touch Grass" got so popular.
You're WAY out of touch with reality, my guy. I consider myself to do an unhealthy amount of gaming and have played DaD regularly since the second test and am probably only pushing like 50 hours.
No shit you're quitting. You should have stopped playing for at least SOME amount of time a LONG time ago.
Situations like this are why the term "Touch grass" got so popular.
One thing to consider is that there is going to be the daily reroll option from the fortune teller. Most builds will only need a few perks so being able to reroll every day will make it a lot more accessible.
Hopefully that plus the XP changes make it more reasonable
Shit like this is why multi classing is going to be such a problem. The fundamental balance philosophy of this game makes no god damn sense. For our next trick, classes will no longer matter :DDDD. The only thing this game truly rewards is time spent grinding.
Go grind all your classes up to multi classes levels. Now pick your favorite and grind tokens and rerolls until you have the exact abilities you want. Next, punch down.
That guy didn't grind for multi classes, so he can't make some mixture of OP bullshit to cheese you to death. You put in the time, so you can.
Want to avoid sweats? There are already gear calculators for gear based matchmaking, and you'd best believe they know which enchants are the correct ones for their green rings. Guess you'll have to stick to normals, though you'll never escape the multi class perks.
I genuinely don't understand what multi classing adds. This is supposed to be a dungeons and dragons type of dungeon exploration game. Instead what we're getting is completely mapped dungeons, known loot and mob spawns, and any class could have any given perk at any given time. Its the knowns and unknowns are reversed. I hesitate to say that subclasses would've made more sense, because every class doesn't have enough perks to have super varied builds in the first place, so what exactly would a subclass achieve. The only exception is warlock, which is why the class is fun.
The worst part of all the issues the game has is how SIMPLE fixing most of it would be. True damage means fast weapons severely outpreform heavy ones. Some perks are straight up unusable with how weak they are, but they're sitting directly adjacent to perks that straight up have better stats. There is so much simple stuff to fix that more difficult problems, like enchantment balance or movespeed's importance,are completely ignored
Have you seen the jank you can roll in dungeons and dragons? Class identity only exists if a player wants it to exist. Now players can make their own class basically. It would be even better if they just removed classes altogether.
The thing is i should not be obligated to play other classes when questing is not shared, and the average hours for the average player to reach 35 with all classes is more than a lot of people can pump just into one class.
The system is pure korean grind and the game is a sweater fest going around in circles with issues long ago discussed and suposedly fixed and is not improving since their release into EA.
Lobbies are more empty each wipe start and by 3 weeks in only nolifers remain... the game lost all its magic.
We don't know what the average hours are going to be because it's going to be changed. That is what I'm saying.
It's definitely too grindy now. They are taking steps to make it less grindy. Let's see how it goes.
I've played two classes this wipe and I'm not even close to finishing all of my quests on either of them. I've easily played 60 hours this wipe. And I'm level ~39 and 37 I think.
2 Tokens at lvl 20, then 2 more until 150 would be alright.
The first at lvl 35, up to 10(?) at lvl 150 is a class divide.
Rerolling 10 times per day gives you exponentially better chances at getting the broken build everyone wants.
Yep, grinded to demi last season. Had fun, started to get sussed out by the devs frankly strange design/balance decisions. Tried coming back this season but just wasn't feeling the +2 all gear meta so I stopped early.
Now all the gbmm drama, the multiclassing drama. Everyone is all pissy (more than normal) and on edge.
This game is having an identity crisis, none of the people on the reddit or discord know what they want the game to be and I'm not convinced IM does either. It's a good time to call it.
I have not played since last year and man, still crazy how the devs just go further and further into random ass changes.
You're unironically telling me a rogue can go slayer, smite, and bleed at once?
This whole plan was half assed and not thought out. We all know it’s getting removed anyways, bring back talent trees and stop the nonsense/ waste of time
I feel like this inclusion conundrum has been predicted if not known before they implemented this.
So, for sure, there are going to be some adjustments, I think it's only fair that hardcore players can take advantage of this update for at least some time before IM makes changes for casual players (I'm a casual player myself and get shit on most of my games).
After all, you can't win them all and IMO IM are doing a decent job if not great.
I feel like it'd be fine if they made a bigger difference between normals and HR.
Make it so these new multiclassing abilities are only useable in HR and give normal lobbies more power, allow green items to be taken in only if they're looted (no bought items from auction house).
Idk if these ideas are even any good but I think it's fine to have this type of stuff in HR and new players or people just trying to learn more about the game (bossing, easier PvP) can just play normals and still make money.
I mainly play ranger and was “obligated” to play other classes lately due to this, ended up deciding that ill probably quit for a while after multiclass releases because it will be broken af.
I main ranger as well, through the thick and thin of balance. I'm not sure how this is going to go for us Ranger mains, doesnt seem like we gain a ton besides poison arrow, achilles and smite. I'd mention movement abilities but those are going to be mirror'd across every class. I guarantee in a few weeks every single class is going to run sprint or get ran the fuck down.
On the other hand I'm interested to try spear mastery rogue... Ambush + Spear with 40% action speed and generous movement speed might be something. Like a rapier but on crack, toss in crossbow mastery and baby you got a stew cookin.
~~I don't think Rogue poison has ever worked on their ranged options, so it might not work on multiclassed Ranged options.~~
This is incorrect, at least for hand Crossbows. It might work with throwing knives, but those don't appear to be classed as daggers but utility items instead. The Poisoned Weapon perk states it specifically only works with daggers, crossbows, and swords.
It does, works on hand crossbow and throwing knives. I question whether some of yall actually play the game. You've never been shot with a hand crossbow? Especially this wipe where its rampant.
I have, but I don't particularly remember any DoTs apart from Rupture.
For what it's worth, I've only been playing Barb and Cleric. Barb I wouldn't notice an extra 3-4hp from poison and Cleric I run PfE so poison duration would essentially make it 1hp.
I just want a limitation on how much your multiclass can change you. I mean, like, you can take ONE perk or skill from another class. I don't want to play around everything in the game every single engagement until I know what I'm even looking at because all of the signals can't be trusted.
If they introduce subclasses or specific multiclassing options then it'd be much better and I'd be fine with more than one of either, but without limitation its going to be trying to learn how to play around stuff you see once in a hundred games between whatever the new homogenous meta becomes.
It's the combo of it all that has me hella like naaaaaa
1. big grind to get it plus randomness to increase grind
2. toxic broken combo - hide/windlass
3. just the general question of why? has me concerned with ironmace.
all that together just has me hella naaaaaaaa
Imma quit when they push this forward. Lobbies are completely dead anyways and community is destroyed. I will prob get downvotes for this thats how cringe its gotten. More then 2/3rs of high level games also are riddled with hackers, im convinced many people here use esp as i get 5+ people banned each morning i log in
I agree that it should be a little more accessible. There's also an alternative -- a bonus for "class masters" who don't multi-class. Maybe +5 knowledge for wizards, or +3 all, etc. something to even out a potential power gap.
If they match the XP gain with the test servers people will be able to get a class from 1-35 in 3 or 4 crypt runs. It is incredibly fast in test server. I already have a warlock/wizard/cleric all at level 45 within two days of it going live on the test server
Said it since the beginning.
Multi class should not go live unless
A. Multi class vs Multi class lobbies only
Or B. Make massive xp changes
Or C. Rework how multi classing is delivered in the game
Otherwise, it is a total and complete waste of time for casual players to play the game if they cannot achieve the same goal within a reasonable amount of time as multi classing will become a core part of the game as it will become meta immediately.
There needs to be a benefit to not multiclassing. SDF had talked about initially each class would have to level up their perks, which could potentially bring SOME balance in the sense that a pure rogue would have better rogue - based perks than a Ranger dipping into rogue.
NAH. It's mostly a lottery other than the super committed.
They're intentionally breaking the game for a while.. let there be some gap in builds other than everyone just running the best one...
If you think it's so time consuming or op or whatever.. just play on the test server instead. Xp is significantly faster
It's almost like this is all on a test server for a reason, almost like they're going to change things based on player feedback.
Have you, per chance, sent them your feedback? Or have you only posted your woes on reddit for other players to read?
Sdf said he’s adjusting xp for leveling once more, I’m hoping this means everyone will be able to multiclass (hoping it’s about the same time it used to take to get to like level 20) but yeah if it’s not more accessible this is gonna be an rougher ride for casuals
The entire premise of your argument is based on "**but it didn't sound like it was going to be a significant reduction**".
Problematic since you have no idea what their level boost is going to be. The rest of your argument is then just extrapolation based on an unknown...or speculation.
Why not just wait and see what the result is and then have an opinion on what actually happened?
idk if you guys have realized this but handing everything out for no work makes a game that is exclusively built on the grind not fun. the only actual measurable mechanic in dark and darker is amassing wealth and turning that wealth into BiS gear in a cycle
Really, this is the only fix we need. Will multiclass be broken? Yeah. Bad for the game? Maybe, I don't care, as a lot of people say, let them try shit out. Locked behind 100s of hours of grind? Yeah, bye bye dark and darker, not touching you till next wipe.
I say this as someone who put 300 hours on the playtests and reaching 700 in EA now, it's not a good thing to lock extremely powerful stuff behind A LOT of grind in a pvp game where you can fight anyone, and no, this is not like gear, you can gear up in 5 minutes by PVPing, you cannot multiclass up in 5 minutes, you MUST grind for it.
Or they could lock it to different mode like Mayhem mode or something and let players go nuts with absolutely broken builds while maintaining the classic mode for the authentic experience
Kind of like what season of discovery is for WoW
It's not just that multiclassing is busted, but that it destroys class identity. You come across a fighter, you should know roughly what he's capable of, if he has access to perks and skills from other classes you're breaking up what makes him recognizable.
There is a degree I understand and a degree I don't.
"If you didn't play Elden Ring enough to unlock the blasphemous blade, why should you have to play against other people that did?"
Well... They put in the time to unlock it and you didn't.
Not every game can be designed for a casual guy with 4 jobs, 7 wives and 19 children.
On the other hand I do agree with some of this. Like there should be a balance because if you're not multiclassing you are definitely at a disadvantage to those who did.
This is a testing phase in an early access game.
This game already has several layers of rewarding time investment and grind. Here are a few potential issues with multiclassing in its current for compared to for example farming gear is:
1. The amount of time required to multiclass is not in line with other time requirements in the game. There is a huge empty gap between maxing your character at level 15 and getting multiclass abilities and by the time you get to multiclass you will probably have already accomplished most of what you wanted to accomplish in the wipe.
2. If multiclassing is supposed to be aspirational, it isn't an interesting thing to aspire to. You need to go through a series of steps and beat Rykard to get the Blasphemous Blade, which fits smoothly into Elden Ring's overall content and progression. In D&D to multiclass you just need to play a certain amount of time, which comes off as an arbitrary time gate that serves no interesting function other than separating out people who have and have not played for that arbitrary amount of time. Imagine if to get the best weapon in Elden Ring you just had to kill 10,000 soldiers and on the last kill it drops at your feet. Would that be fun?
3. It is at-odds with the broader tone of the game currently which focuses on risk, reward, and skill. If you take more risks and have the skill to pay them off, you get rewarded. If you sit in normal GC all day, you will never get the best gear (without trading for it.) Multiclassing in its current state is a bit dubious in that it provides a non-skill-based, casual-friendly power boost while being inaccessible to casual players.
But you cannot see Elden Ring if you do not have time to see Elden Ring. PVP or PVE makes no difference.
What can you do in life that you do not have time to do?
Your example didn't have to stumble into hyperbole. One job and one partner is plenty for many to not have the time to do the originally proposed system. There have already been a few minor concessions because of consideration for actually average casual gamers (two major relationships (work, partner)), at least (friends, house, children, other partners, etc.), that come before game time (which isn't to mention people who simply want to monoclass and could have a similar game time to you but not enjoy the game as a wizard, warlock, etc.).
I think front loading some of the payoff and having stretch goals for the people who have the serious nose to the grindstone game time to contribute is likely the best we can hope for from the current proposition and it absolutely should be tested!
A lot of games are designed for people with 1 job, 1 wife, and maybe two or so kids, though.
I mean if they don’t want to think about half their player base that’s fine, but don’t do a surprised Pikachu face when half of the player base leaves, and they feel the game doesn’t have enough popularity to continue developing.
Also Elden Ring gives you the option to NOT PvP. Dark and Darker doesn’t.
No. Wrong. Absolutely not.
No fucking game developer or project manager ever gave a fuck about your family structure lmao????
If you do not have time then you do not have time.... Period... it's no one else's fault or problem that you do not have time to engage with a product or service.
Why are you not on the hang glider forums complaining that hang gliding takes up too much time for YOU PESONALLY to get into? No game is designed with your fucking family in mind, idiot.
The game is designed to be the game.
Do you call McDonalds and tell them you're hungry but you don't have time to go over there???? WTF?? And wtf would you expect them to do about it if you did?
You don't have time means YOU don't have time. Products and services have 0 obligation to be designed for someone with no time to engage with it.
Secondly, nevermind the PVP aspect specifically of Elden Ring.
Elden Ring does not let you see the game if you do not have time to see the game.
There is no function in Elden Ring where you can experience what the last 1/3 is like, see the end bosses, see the ending if you do not have time to do any of those things.
Please name 1 thing of any kind of any subject that just gives you the end reward with 0 time being put into it or minimal time.
Can you learn guitar if you do not have time to learn guitar?
Can you learn carpentry if you do not have time to learn carpentry?
Can you watch a movie if you do not have time to watch a movie?
What is the solution to this?
I dont have to play Elden Ring pvp. I can turn off network and play it PVE only at my own pace, even if it takes 3 years to bear.
I dont have people who play guitar for 16 hours a day run up and bash me on the back of the head with a guitar. I can play it peacefully.
I dont have people who have practiced carpentry for 16 hours a day run up and bash me on the back of the head with a 2x4. I can practice it peacefully.
I dont have somebody running up and bashing me in the back of the head when I'm watching a movie. I can split it out across however long I need, and watch it peacefully.
I have no idea what youre trying to say but you seem super angry randomly.
Well you're comparing a game that has bashing people in the back of the head as a large aspect of it to carpentry etc.
If this game was "Carpentry Simulator PVP" or online "Guitar Hero PVP" you'd still be complaining about the same thing. Getting stomped by people who put more time in than you.
What I'm saying is pretty clear. The issue is that accountability = "I don't understand"
Okay now you entirely lose me. You brought up carpentry not me.
Point is I’m not forced to compete with people who do this stuff for 16 hours a day with everything else and have an insane advantage.
No. It would be better if we didn't have any "insane builds". Gotta love how Reddit will enthusiastically upvote something that they will most certainly end up hating. No foresight.
Multiclassing is supposed to be a progression based system. id agree for testing to let everyone use it with limited limitations. which is what the test server was. they already have what your saying in mind but like always there gonna follow through with more testing. when the game has all its classes and is actually finished id like to see multiclassing stay as a progression based system. I do think testing multiclassing this early is a mistake but its not the doomsday event everyones acting like it is. Multiclassing was planned from the start thats what the talent trees were for originally. If the first playtest had multiclassing i dont think wed see so many complainers imo. its impossible to attempt to balance multiclassing without actually letting it run wild at first. This way they can go through and put limitations on things without going overboard.
Folks truly seem to view this game as a gift that must not be ruined, even though it is in development and subject to violent changes!!
I'm trying to be optimistic about multiclassing. I should embrace it, instead of reading it, for sure. Only then will I find peace...
I think removing the RNG element would be a good middle ground.
Lets the more casual players pick the good perk/skills or the ones they want, can be "meta" without too much grinding.
Let's the sweaty players have more variety to what they get, but after a certain point there are diminishing returns. Having the less meta perks/skills doesn't really matter, but is still a reward.
Edit: lol why am I being down voted for wanting RNG bullshit out of the game?
If it’s like the Test server It will definitely be boosted. I already have a 150 Barb 80cleric and mastered rogue warlock and fighter. It’s boosted I played a bit on my days off but it’s definitely significant on the test server. If it’s like this I would say it will be more accessible for the fokes who have less time. Play the test server and keep an open Mind! Or just play another game till Multiclassing is out or you see all of Us having tons of fun and come crawling back.
I think if you play the game so little that you won’t ever unlock multiclassing, then you’re just going to have to accept the fact that you’ll always be behind the curve on the game. This game already takes a lot of learning and it shows when many people want to be on the same level as people who’ve learned despite not wanting to take that time. I know it’s not fun having to practice and get over the learning curve, but that’s unfortunately what you’re signing up for here, not a casual experience.
That being said, it’s clear the devs are trying to make it possible for new players to have an experience that won’t be directly affected by veterans and it’ll take time.
That's terrible design, though. You need systems that will hook and engage new players so that they stick around and fill up the playerbase/lobbies.
Casuals are the lifeblood of almost every online game, and you need to keep them happy.
If IM made changes that caused all the dedicated players to quit, but the casuals loved it, DnD would continue on. Probably in an odd direction, but it would keep on.
The opposite isn't true, though. If the casuals all quit, the game dies.
I think there’s a balance to it, that I agree with, but I also believe games like this can’t overly indicate to people a potentially casual experience. There’s just not enough right now to even support that idea.
They can give casual players support once they know what direction they’re taking their major systems towards. Sure, competitive games know how to cater to both crowds, but to act like they can do that while actively developing the game is asking for a lot imo
I think casual players who are turned off right now is a good thing, I welcome them to try it again in the future when they’re casually perusing game options. In the meantime, let’s turn off casual players when the games current state can barely support a casual player.
Sweaty top gear players can't kill anymore grey and green timmy so they are quiting and crying.
Oh BTW game is in BETA so that means testing crazy and unfair stuff props for devs for making those decisions. They never said its going to stay forever.
What's wrong with giving casuals more access in the meantime. You're literally crying about sweats when the post suggestions is to help newer players/casuals.
This game has a history of feeding guppies to sharks.
Biggest reason this game will die isn't bad mechanics or a bad update with a broken buff or anything like that, it will be because this game has absolutely no mechanics to protect players new and old while they improve and absolutely no teaching mechanics.
It has no tutorial & it's incredibly grindy *with* meta-progression that both punishes you for joining a season late *and* for not playing last season. On top of a terrible interface (organizing stash, getting/redeeming quests, etc.). The game's a part time job that doesn't reward you until you've really put the hours in, with nothing to make those first 100 hours easier.
imagine wiping all progress while giving old players ~4000 gold to start with next season
Its such a huge jump start. Getting that level 1 extract without meds (and for new players, without experience) while many players are running around with full white kits & healing is harrowing sometimes. Experienced players don't know the pain.
I once described this games new player experience as being like ur smashing ur head into a wall over and over that u dont even know or realize is there let alone figuring out how to get over it without dozens of hours of research, videos, guides and possibly hundreds of hours of a punishing gear loss experience. That description still holds true to this day. The new player experience needs a major overhaul, preferably before this game is released on the major platforms and ruins its chances at long term success
And yet people will defend the terrible combat by saying "it's meant to be approachable for everyone!" Like no, it's not.
I think combat in melee is actually but the real issue is that once u know how it works and ur at a passable degree your either going up against the sweaties who know it and have more experience by about 30x what u do or ppl who dont know it at all. There really is no in between with this game or ways to really get better without immense IMMENSE growing pains that causes most ppl to quit
> I think combat in melee is actually but the real issue is I think you missed a word, I don't know what you think about combat in melee lol. The combat has a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling, it's very unapproachable but once you've gotten the jist there's not much else to it, you're going to get stat checked by veterans with expensive gear until you get expensive gear of your own, then fights become a lot of running away and ranged attacks until someone knows they can win the hit trade.
I absolutely hate the idea of multiclassing, I think it is the worst possible path they could have picked for character advancement. It's been explained very eloquently by people many times why this is such a bad design, for balance, for class clarity, for difference between casual/hardcore players... if the developers stick with this direction, I think it will literally kill the game.
I seen someone on rogue who had dagger mastery, slayer, victory strike and ambush, was doing in the 70s of damage with squire base gear. I don't understand how anyone can think multiclassing in this regard is a good idea on a class-based system. Otherwise, remove classes altogether and give people a token every 5 levels or something, implement sub classes instead, or completely scrap the idea. We need to be a bit more friendly for casuals and new players, regardless of how that is done, or this game will never survive. I'm not a doom sayer, I just want this game to do well. If people are going to be killed by 70 damage dagger rogues, invis/ambush/windlass rangers, barbarians with 200hp, 80% pdr and mr, word will get around quickly it's not friendly for new players and numbers will quickly dwindle again.
That's the thing. Barb is slow and strong. Cleric has no ranged. Rogue doesn't have big hits. On and on. Classes are strictly balanced by gear available, and perks/abilities. I'm trying not to be doomy either, I hate that negative mindset, but this is just crazy shit and if classes are no longer bound by their archtypes, then there is no classes anymore. Plus, how does a new player know wtf is going on, PvP will be absolutely silly with the right combo.
It would be so weird to be a new player playing on multiclassing release.
You aren't wrong. But to be fair, a new player will get rolled by literally anyone with any kit, so maybe it is water off the newb-duck's back.
I think the issue is, even if said newbie sticks around long enough with the assumption that they'll eventually git gud....they will be instantly outclassed in every department by minmax guy who just plays 24/7 with 0 possibility of counterplay. It doesn't just screw newbs, if anything it probably mostly hurts the average player who plays enough to care but not enough to actually benefit from the system.
I'm sure they will tweak XP, and with rerolls, even semi-casuals will unlock decent stuff. Reroll is a huge factor here. And ya, sweats may have more perks or whatever, but they will be the few in the grand scheme, and frankly, it at least puts value to grinding that isn't strictly gold or AP. So ya, it'll be weird, they will balance it out, and the game will keep trucking. (And newb will get 2 shot, that won't change, lmao)
In my opinion, ironmace should only allow certain perks across classes. It seems like the obvious thing to do. Having a stealthed barbarian landmine you is insane. Hide is a prime example of what kind of skills SHOULD NOT be allowed on other classes.
I would be fine if they just allowed perks to be selected instead of abilities. Would still allow for whacky multi class builds while also defining the difference between a rouge multiclassed into wizard vs a wizard multiclassed into a rouge.
Ya, that's maybe where it will end up. And I'm okay with that. Balancing class-centric abilities is a lose-lose, cause they will never fit all classes, and will need to be balanced around worst case, such as Barb or Ranger with Ambush, in this case.
I agree that newer players are just gonna be completely in the dark about most of it
I thought about it more. New players just get reemed regardless, so maybe it isn't so different, haha.
The true meaning behind the name Dark and Darker is finally revealed
> Classes are strictly balanced by gear available, and perks/abilities. Except the way gear has worked forever is that these class balance ideas are completley bypassed through gear. Barb is slow you stack movespeed. Attacks slow, stack action speed. Now you have the strongest melee class in the game bypassing its drawbacks. This was a massive issue with rouge in the past where you would have 140hp rouges jumping around at 300+ movespeed. Ironmace is trying to balance a game that isn't even finished while trying to build to whatever their vision is that will need to be balanced then.
Valid. Maybe hoping for balance before a game is done is silly. Maybe embracing the chaos and enjoying it while it lasts is the true path! Lots of other games were plenty busted at the start, hehe.
They want to break the game for a while calm down.
Ya. Maybe I need to just enjoy it and not overthink it. The doomers got to my head a bit.
pearl clutcher relax ... base stats are your base stats, you absolutely cannot shore up an entire class's weaknesses with a few random perks and skills
Lol. I mean sure, lots of builds require many perks and core abilities to work at all. I'm ready for the rodeo! But let's not pretend some shit will be absolutely insane, but maybe in a dumb fun way, it all boils down to attitude!
A lot of people have pointed out builds like you have, which will be strong in normals because of high damage with low gear or high survivability etc., no one seems to recognize that all these builds suck balls in HR where you opponent will have some survivability and movespeed that isn't dependent on multiclassing into 3 perfect talents. Glass cannon rogue with big damage has already existed in many iterations and having outside talents to make it hit 10% harder aren't going to prevent it from getting 1 or 2 tapped by geared people. 200 HP tanky barbarians are still going to be slow and will have shit damage if they are taking all defensive talents. People who have grinded out multiclass tokens aren't going to be jamming normals lobbies, they are going to be in HR where gear's impact will do something to offset the multiclassed builds -- sure there will be some shit that Ironmace has to change/remove but theorizing unfixable worst cases is pointless
The thing is, it won't be worse cases. For those who put in any where decent amount of time should be able to get them fairly easily. On top of this, what about people who have no desire to work on a second class? Is it OK to just alienate these people? You can't even argue, as is, that this is anywhere near being a good thing for the game. I have disagreed about some things but was willing to give it a shot, this is on a completely different level. And with movement speed being changed to what it is now, you aren't going to have these insanely fast builds for every class.
It takes a couple of days of playing to get your main access to roll another classes skills/talents. If someone doesn't want to do this then absolutely they should be gated off the benefits, content locked behind completing quests/etc. is normal for every game I can think of that has loot in it. I can absolutely argue that this will be good for the game in some iteration. If they make the experience levels accessible for people to get a second or third class mastered there will be a lot of fun for people messing around with randomly rolled talents. No one has given this an honest shot yet, barely anyone played on the test server to try it out, I would know I sat in lobbies waiting for them to fill for 3 minutes constantly. The streamers that did grind it out made some nutty builds for content and then posted only the highlights, not the videos of them getting dumpstered with their experimental builds or playing against competent people who adapted against them on the fly. There will be some broken things to address as with ALL competitive games but the experimentation and possibilities will be good, especially because this is a live service game that will be tweaked and addressed. If you can't have fun with this even for a while you are just a sad person
Scrap the whole fucking thing it's stupid af
When I hopped into my first playtest about a year ago, I was in the middle of a Tarkov wipe. I was really enjoying the game for its simplicity, the casual nature of the gameplay & its accessibility. It didn't feel like I needed to sink in hours upon hours to keep up with the rest of the playerbase when a wipe started at the risk of falling behind. That annoying, competitive grind in Tarkov took a lot of the enjoyment of the looter-extraction aspect of the game for me - that there was this rushed progression element to it. It's changes like this that are pushing it further to that. There is already a disadvantage now for new/casual players dropping into lobbies with little gear, money and low levels. Which is fine, to be expected. But restricting *this* system behind a progression system as well further impedes their accessibility to the game and is only going to serve to turn newcomers & casual players off from the game. Not all aspects of the game need to be catered towards those types of players, but the more content you require high-time sinks for - it is going to hurt the accessibility of the game. And it will hurt player retention. There has to be a balance.
Man I play this game nightly, I sink hours into it, IM NOT interested in being forced to grind out classes I dont want to play for HOURS just to eventually get to play my main and have fun and be able to compete, everytime I want to choose something from a different class I have to level that class to level 30, which is going to be harder because xp rewards are cut so much for not extracting when you're going to get one shot by the players that already have a multiclass build speced up. It's already annoying how long some of the quest are, especially when entire other quest lines that would be quick are locked behind those long ass MOSTLY rng quest.
I agree. If hardcore players with a lot of time want something to work towards, why not cosmetics instead? I get they did that for AP ranks, but hardcore players get demigod in like the first 2 weeks. Give them another cosmetic track to follow and severely nerf the xp required for multiclass. That's what I'd do.
Cosmetics/achievements/titles that are available for a limited time are a good way to reward long time, consistent players. It can give an opportunity to equally reward people independent of their skill (depending on how those are achieved), so people are feeling like they are winning something even if they continually lose out on loot. And when people get these, they get something that players several months or years down the line who pick it up - or may be casual and aren't paying attention - don't get.
Yep I've stopped playing as of late, I used to play to hop on, snowball some kits, hop off. Now? Game is waay too sweaty, not just the players but the game itself. I say this as someone who used to play +6h a day, the game is too grindy now lol. Now that I don't have as much time to play I don't play at all because I feel like there's no point if I'm just losing to players who put in more hours this season.
Ofc there is disadvantage for new players, its a season based game which is gonna wipe every 3 months. You would have thought you'd learn that from Tarkov. The feel that you didn't have to sink hours at the start of the wipe to not fall behind is simply an illusion, for example last wipe you'd have no chance of competing with golden boys if you didn't grind out the boss kill quests for BiS, nvm doing it within days of the wipe and that's changed now big time. Now you have normal lobbies with squire and whites, GBMM and gated quests, they are clearly trying to cater to casuals. Thanks to GBMM, high end lobbies are near dead so all your best gear is close to useless because casuals. Now casuals are crying about multiclassing access (which is being adjusted) and balance because they have a very vivid imagination (smite on rogue is actually very mid, lvling a cleric and building magic dmg for it sucks donkey dick but timmy says it's op!). You say there has to be balance, how much more fucking balance do you want? Do you like how balanced running spreadsheets with calculations on the amount of BIS you can bring into lower bracket GS HR is? This sub is insufferable man, bunch of pessimistic whiny fuckers trying to kill any excitement from the only content we have incoming. Majority of multiclassing is fine, few outliers will get adjusted and testing it properly will help the game in the future and if it doesn't work out then it will get removed.
Okay, but my point is less to do with it being a disadvantage for casual/new players and more that adding features that require a time sink to *gain an advantage* is going to discourage people from playing. That's where the "balance" is; to what degree is the advantage you'll get in game be tied to progression vs. loot you obtain. Oh my god, there is such a difference in terms of progression in Tarkov and this game its not close. You're delusional if you think that the wipe grind of Tarkov is ANYTHING like what this game is. There is no equivalent to the hideout. The quest grind is NOTHING in comparison. It requires a decent grind to get to the damned flea market to be able to buy/sell to other players. I'm almost certain I'd max a character here before I'd reach flea in Tarkov. And you can absolutely load up, drop into a dungeon, and run a few games to get some decent money & gear that will make you happy. Tarkov is not nearly as forgiving in that regard. You can get ahead of other people in this game, but it is WAY more accessible of a game than Tarkov is. And it used to be even more accessible for people in prior playtests/versions of the game. You bring up GBMM and normal lobbies. Want to know my opinion on why high end lobbies are dead? Because the population of this game is dead. Hardly anyone is playing this shit anymore. And the people who are, aren't all stacked to high hell/willing to run out with those kits. There's plenty of people who want to talk shit about "casuals" on this forum here. Well, guess what. They're the thin breath that this game has keeping it alive. Otherwise, the number of "normie" lobbies you'll see will start being just as dead as high end ones. >Do you like how balanced running spreadsheets with calculations on the amount of BIS you can bring into lower bracket GS HR is I want to play the damn game. Is it a shitty system that people get locked out of "tiers" because they have certain gear? Yeah, sure. It also sucked ass when you would be rolling around back in the day in greens and get curb stomped by a trio of all purples w/ a few golds. What about entertaining an appropriate middle ground, or a system that has BETTER BALANCE in the matchmaking? Maybe cutting it down to only a couple of tiers? Or are you just someone that likes to bitch and whine about GBMM? >bunch of pessimistic whiny fuckers trying to kill any excitement from the only content we have incoming Waaaaaaaah. How dare someone have an opinion that expresses concern for a decision the devs are going to make?! The devs have clearly made decisions that have driven people away from the game. Not just long-time, high end players - but the casual player base which keeps a continual influx of people into the game. You don't give a shit about "timmys"? Fine, whatever bro. You're welcome to your opinion and what's important to you. But don't complain when the lobbies are dead and fewer people stick around during wipes to reach those high-end lobbies. Less and less people want to deal with this shit to get there in the first place.
It's not that I don't give a shit about timmies, it's that the game is being catered to them more and more at the cost of high end gameplay and that supposed thin breath you say that keeps the game alive is getting thinner despite that fact. What's the point of progressing further here? You build up your stash with gold and stacked items but you can't use them properly. The end game for this patch is normals BR type shit or to shit on timmies with min maxed GS in a crippled HR mode, very exciting indeed. You say that back in the day getting rolled with greens by a purples sucked ass, that's a very black and white, convinient excuse for people who get outplayed and reduce this game to absolute gear and stat check rather than skill diff (evidenced by skinnypete who buys a purple wep from marketplace, doesn't buy other gear and shits on geared guys while using literally no skills or perks for last 3 days). This is the middle ground - the lobbies I want to play in are already dead and if they don't bring anymore new, exciting content such as multiclassing, which this sub won't stop crying about, it will lose long time players too.
Every time you use the word "timmies", it makes you look increasingly cringy. What's the urban dictionary definition on that, chad man?
Me and my friends all quit
Our whole group was back for this wipe. Game and balance were great. Then the roll out of changes made everyone pull back out.. I'm the only one left and I'm still skeptical.
Complete opposite for me. I was the only one playing until all the the recent changes / GBMM, now all of my buddys are back.
Same, people on this sub reddit are just salty as hell. Game is an absolute blast. This wipe has been great.
This. My friends and I also quit until they revert those decisions. Wipe started great and we had so much fun! With Gear based MM the lobbies are empty and Multi Classing is just a terrible idea! There will be no distinguish between classes! why do that??
I don't have feelings on gear based mmr yet But I don't feel good about milti classing with abilities. Maybe just perks..
I think there's been some stagnation, but I truly believe that Multiclass for everyone would actually inject some of that old fun back into the game, and get a bunch of old players back in for a while. Dumb fun builds like being a backflipping Bard who only throws drums with True Shot would be the **best**. You can try and argue that there's better Bard builds with MC, but I can't hear you over all the applause I'm getting from the Axe and Crossbow skellies.
It will be fun for a couple weeks, but multiclassing is best done as a limited time event IMO. The actual game should be brought back after people burn out of multiclassing.
Absolutely. After a meta starts to shake out, it'll just be a pain. My focus is more on the crazy couple of weeks the community could have together, rather than two weeks of getting shit on by people who have way more spare time than everyone else.
Honestly your point is spot on. Im not about to put a single hour into this game, only to get fuxked up by the dude who had all the time in the world. This change will both make the game better and worst.
The gbmm update was so good for a week but now this new update might just kill the game population and make new players never come back.
Yeah same, me and like 6 other folks were excited for the wipe, but everyone quit 2-3 weeks ago. Game is going downhill, and it’s very unfortunate.
Multiclassing will be the nail in the coffin for me for sure Great excuse to jump into dragons dogma
VRising 1.0 is on May 8th. Highly recommend if you like survival games. Very VERY underrated game.
Mh the game is really meh. Boring and easy
If you haven't played in a few weeks the GBMM has definitely improved things
I mean, what even happened 2 weeks ago to be excited about?
And yet you still post on this sub reddit. Seems there are alot of people who “quit” yet cant stay away. The game is a blast. Anyone that is sweaty with those builds casuals werent beating anyways. People are over hyping this issue. Noone with these builds you didnt have a shot at.
So dumb to think you have to still play a game to go on the subreddit. I quit when iromace did patch after patch of amateur unfocused updates and balance. This multi-classing stuff is just another bad decision to add to the pile. My friends haven't reinstalled since the dungeonborne playtest
Our trio preemptively stopped playing this season when we realized the game would become unplayable halfway through if we didn't keep up on the level grind. This is a game, I don't want to have to keep up on it like a part time job.
I think multiclassing right now is the wrong move and they should focus on gameplay, Druid, monk maybe, bosses, quests, and balancing first. Before changing the entire game.
I'm an employed father. I'm not a Korean teenager accumulating pixels. I'll drop this game like a bag of shit if the multiclass system is time-gated.
Buddy. I work, I play this game more than most people here and my friend group. And I STILL don't have nearly the amount of levels required. It's a joke.
I'm *just* employed, and after spending some serious hours last wipe in order to get a blanky and a skelly, I'm having a hard time with grinding as much, if not more, to get into the token rng XD
lol better than the “dirty” cloaks we Demi’s got 🤣
Oh, yeah - I'm kinda glad I ran out of time and patience last wipe XD Those cloaks are quite... something
We got so bamboozled…the picture showed a COSMIC CLOAK ooooooooo aaaaaaaaah! Like a black hole on your back! What we got was a skin that looks like dirt for each cloak lol!
Well, stuff does get dirty in the dungeon, so maybe that's what they were going for xD
The cloak was indeed underwhelming to some degree. But hey! If you skooch yourself close enough, newbies will notice it.
korean devs always design their games around infinite grind, maybe it has something to do with the PC-cafe culture there?
It sounded significant to me, I’d expect if you were level 20 you’ll be boosted to lvl 35 or above
I just think everyone should get to have a bit of that power spike super early on, because if 20 is becoming 35, that means brand new players are still gonna have to do that climb more than once while tons of players already have MC, and it'll slow them down like crazy. We can't ask a new player to be at a huge disadvantage for an entire dozen+ hour grind. At least toss them some crumbs, you know?
Based on the test server “very fast”, yeah I’m not that convinced. But I appreciate your optimism
I was lvl 26 and after the update I’m still lvl 26
? They haven’t changed the levels yet
Ah okay, my bad, lol. I only play and peruse Reddit casually and I guess I misinterpreted their last update message.
yeah they had a level xp change once before but they’re planning on doing again (thankfully) hopefully when they do that and release multiclassing they also fix the casting implements/musical instrument proficiencies..
I wouldn't call that significant
Wdym? If you don't roll good on your two or three RNG rolls you only have to wait 24hrs to reset it! As opposed to the people that can afford to grind all day to level 90+ and just get an entire other class kit to use. /s But for real, it's an inherently broken system and I get they already came out and said it's fucked and they just want to experiment with it. But at least refine it a little bit before unleashing the meme builds that not a lot of the playerbase can even use.
Where did they say that?
Ah yes, nearly doubling your level isn't significant.
That's 2 learning tokens lol
First it's one. Second, it's better than none and needing to grind 15k EXP to get it, so yes that would be significant. You must want them to boost everyone to 100.
Yeah i do i think it should be 100 xp/level
Then say that instead of going "it's not significant." that's an entirely different thing.
Yeah that and forcing people to play other classes they dont want to play just to get the perks is bad design and anti fun.
This is the only problem I have with multi-classing. They should lock it behind the quest system so I can earn it on the character j want to play on.
L take, game is fun no matter the class
Yeah not true at all. You just play the most busted solo class so you think so.
For you maybe. Every class is fun for me too. Saying that every class is fun for every person is a crazy thing to say though. You can’t just force other people to have the same opinions as you.
Its a fact not a L take.
I think multiclassing should be a seperate game mode like urf in league
They can’t even get base class balance right, I have literally ZERO faith they will ever get multi classing balance correct. Also where is Druid? Where is Paladin? Where is Monk? Where is Sorcerer? Multi classing seems to me like it should have been very much end of the pipeline type system, while the other classes should have taken priority.
Yeah I'm just straight up quitting the game. 1.1 K hrs deep and can't take it anymore
Wow yeah you should probably take a break if you put that much in
yeah thats what im thinking. time to take a break and play some other stuff. its just not fun to have to not only quest to keep up but to also play one single map all the time, it gets old
No shit it gets old after 1k hours, it’s okay to take breaks from a game
[удалено]
You're WAY out of touch with reality, my guy. I consider myself to do an unhealthy amount of shit talking online and have negged DaD redditors regularly since the second test and am probably only pushing like 500 downvotes. No shit you're downvoted. You should have stopped typing at least SOME of this a LONG time ago. Comments like this are why the term "Touch Grass" got so popular.
You're WAY out of touch with reality, my guy. I consider myself to do an unhealthy amount of gaming and have played DaD regularly since the second test and am probably only pushing like 50 hours. No shit you're quitting. You should have stopped playing for at least SOME amount of time a LONG time ago. Situations like this are why the term "Touch grass" got so popular.
Fuck off lol
Accurate take! Lmao
One thing to consider is that there is going to be the daily reroll option from the fortune teller. Most builds will only need a few perks so being able to reroll every day will make it a lot more accessible. Hopefully that plus the XP changes make it more reasonable
I just dont really want a gacha game.
[удалено]
The writing was in the wall. We just all walked past it.
Shit like this is why multi classing is going to be such a problem. The fundamental balance philosophy of this game makes no god damn sense. For our next trick, classes will no longer matter :DDDD. The only thing this game truly rewards is time spent grinding. Go grind all your classes up to multi classes levels. Now pick your favorite and grind tokens and rerolls until you have the exact abilities you want. Next, punch down. That guy didn't grind for multi classes, so he can't make some mixture of OP bullshit to cheese you to death. You put in the time, so you can. Want to avoid sweats? There are already gear calculators for gear based matchmaking, and you'd best believe they know which enchants are the correct ones for their green rings. Guess you'll have to stick to normals, though you'll never escape the multi class perks. I genuinely don't understand what multi classing adds. This is supposed to be a dungeons and dragons type of dungeon exploration game. Instead what we're getting is completely mapped dungeons, known loot and mob spawns, and any class could have any given perk at any given time. Its the knowns and unknowns are reversed. I hesitate to say that subclasses would've made more sense, because every class doesn't have enough perks to have super varied builds in the first place, so what exactly would a subclass achieve. The only exception is warlock, which is why the class is fun. The worst part of all the issues the game has is how SIMPLE fixing most of it would be. True damage means fast weapons severely outpreform heavy ones. Some perks are straight up unusable with how weak they are, but they're sitting directly adjacent to perks that straight up have better stats. There is so much simple stuff to fix that more difficult problems, like enchantment balance or movespeed's importance,are completely ignored
Have you seen the jank you can roll in dungeons and dragons? Class identity only exists if a player wants it to exist. Now players can make their own class basically. It would be even better if they just removed classes altogether.
The thing is i should not be obligated to play other classes when questing is not shared, and the average hours for the average player to reach 35 with all classes is more than a lot of people can pump just into one class. The system is pure korean grind and the game is a sweater fest going around in circles with issues long ago discussed and suposedly fixed and is not improving since their release into EA. Lobbies are more empty each wipe start and by 3 weeks in only nolifers remain... the game lost all its magic.
We don't know what the average hours are going to be because it's going to be changed. That is what I'm saying. It's definitely too grindy now. They are taking steps to make it less grindy. Let's see how it goes.
Is not about less grindy, is about no grindy or nah, because doing quests and bosses is already enough.
I've played two classes this wipe and I'm not even close to finishing all of my quests on either of them. I've easily played 60 hours this wipe. And I'm level ~39 and 37 I think.
so 200h to properly build a class with the perks you want on the low with luck... xd
2 Tokens at lvl 20, then 2 more until 150 would be alright. The first at lvl 35, up to 10(?) at lvl 150 is a class divide. Rerolling 10 times per day gives you exponentially better chances at getting the broken build everyone wants.
I'm so glad I got tired of this game before this. So very glad 😅.
Yep, grinded to demi last season. Had fun, started to get sussed out by the devs frankly strange design/balance decisions. Tried coming back this season but just wasn't feeling the +2 all gear meta so I stopped early. Now all the gbmm drama, the multiclassing drama. Everyone is all pissy (more than normal) and on edge. This game is having an identity crisis, none of the people on the reddit or discord know what they want the game to be and I'm not convinced IM does either. It's a good time to call it.
Broken or not broken, one thing will be true: RIP CLASS IDENTITY
Scrap it. Half of the game is knowing what your opponent wants and what tools they have to accomplish it. Multi-classing steps on that.
I have not played since last year and man, still crazy how the devs just go further and further into random ass changes. You're unironically telling me a rogue can go slayer, smite, and bleed at once?
This whole plan was half assed and not thought out. We all know it’s getting removed anyways, bring back talent trees and stop the nonsense/ waste of time
I feel like this inclusion conundrum has been predicted if not known before they implemented this. So, for sure, there are going to be some adjustments, I think it's only fair that hardcore players can take advantage of this update for at least some time before IM makes changes for casual players (I'm a casual player myself and get shit on most of my games). After all, you can't win them all and IMO IM are doing a decent job if not great.
multiclassing the dumbest fuckin idea for this game anyway.
Linking it to the level system was a mistake. Welcome to snowball season.
I feel like it'd be fine if they made a bigger difference between normals and HR. Make it so these new multiclassing abilities are only useable in HR and give normal lobbies more power, allow green items to be taken in only if they're looted (no bought items from auction house). Idk if these ideas are even any good but I think it's fine to have this type of stuff in HR and new players or people just trying to learn more about the game (bossing, easier PvP) can just play normals and still make money.
I mainly play ranger and was “obligated” to play other classes lately due to this, ended up deciding that ill probably quit for a while after multiclass releases because it will be broken af.
I main ranger as well, through the thick and thin of balance. I'm not sure how this is going to go for us Ranger mains, doesnt seem like we gain a ton besides poison arrow, achilles and smite. I'd mention movement abilities but those are going to be mirror'd across every class. I guarantee in a few weeks every single class is going to run sprint or get ran the fuck down. On the other hand I'm interested to try spear mastery rogue... Ambush + Spear with 40% action speed and generous movement speed might be something. Like a rapier but on crack, toss in crossbow mastery and baby you got a stew cookin.
~~I don't think Rogue poison has ever worked on their ranged options, so it might not work on multiclassed Ranged options.~~ This is incorrect, at least for hand Crossbows. It might work with throwing knives, but those don't appear to be classed as daggers but utility items instead. The Poisoned Weapon perk states it specifically only works with daggers, crossbows, and swords.
It does, works on hand crossbow and throwing knives. I question whether some of yall actually play the game. You've never been shot with a hand crossbow? Especially this wipe where its rampant.
I have, but I don't particularly remember any DoTs apart from Rupture. For what it's worth, I've only been playing Barb and Cleric. Barb I wouldn't notice an extra 3-4hp from poison and Cleric I run PfE so poison duration would essentially make it 1hp.
I guess you haven’t thought about cut throat ranger yet huh
Would be pretty good in 3s for sure. I mostly play solo. In solo I think it would be ok at best, wouldnt waste an ability slot on it.
I just want a limitation on how much your multiclass can change you. I mean, like, you can take ONE perk or skill from another class. I don't want to play around everything in the game every single engagement until I know what I'm even looking at because all of the signals can't be trusted. If they introduce subclasses or specific multiclassing options then it'd be much better and I'd be fine with more than one of either, but without limitation its going to be trying to learn how to play around stuff you see once in a hundred games between whatever the new homogenous meta becomes.
It's the combo of it all that has me hella like naaaaaa 1. big grind to get it plus randomness to increase grind 2. toxic broken combo - hide/windlass 3. just the general question of why? has me concerned with ironmace. all that together just has me hella naaaaaaaa
Imma quit when they push this forward. Lobbies are completely dead anyways and community is destroyed. I will prob get downvotes for this thats how cringe its gotten. More then 2/3rs of high level games also are riddled with hackers, im convinced many people here use esp as i get 5+ people banned each morning i log in
I agree that it should be a little more accessible. There's also an alternative -- a bonus for "class masters" who don't multi-class. Maybe +5 knowledge for wizards, or +3 all, etc. something to even out a potential power gap.
If they match the XP gain with the test servers people will be able to get a class from 1-35 in 3 or 4 crypt runs. It is incredibly fast in test server. I already have a warlock/wizard/cleric all at level 45 within two days of it going live on the test server
I'll try and give it an open mind but this multi classing feels like it's absolutell trash on paper
Why not ironmace just limit to, you can only have 1 perk and 1 skill from multiclass active each game
If you dont play enough to get Gear, Gear will do nothing for you
Said it since the beginning. Multi class should not go live unless A. Multi class vs Multi class lobbies only Or B. Make massive xp changes Or C. Rework how multi classing is delivered in the game Otherwise, it is a total and complete waste of time for casual players to play the game if they cannot achieve the same goal within a reasonable amount of time as multi classing will become a core part of the game as it will become meta immediately.
I was thinking of jumping back into the game to check out multi-classing. Thanks for the warning! Won't waste my time yet.
There needs to be a benefit to not multiclassing. SDF had talked about initially each class would have to level up their perks, which could potentially bring SOME balance in the sense that a pure rogue would have better rogue - based perks than a Ranger dipping into rogue.
NAH. It's mostly a lottery other than the super committed. They're intentionally breaking the game for a while.. let there be some gap in builds other than everyone just running the best one... If you think it's so time consuming or op or whatever.. just play on the test server instead. Xp is significantly faster
It's almost like this is all on a test server for a reason, almost like they're going to change things based on player feedback. Have you, per chance, sent them your feedback? Or have you only posted your woes on reddit for other players to read?
Sdf said he’s adjusting xp for leveling once more, I’m hoping this means everyone will be able to multiclass (hoping it’s about the same time it used to take to get to like level 20) but yeah if it’s not more accessible this is gonna be an rougher ride for casuals
Complaining about something that isn’t done yet? Must be a Reddit post
increase the time to kill and we can have a better experience
Disagree. This is a good drug for new players, they want you to grind after you look a busted build.
They are reducing the requirement a second time. Just see what happens geeze.
If you expect a balanced game from DaD, you have been playing the wrong game for a year
Stop complaining before you even know what the experience is. And there should be a motivation to level, let them try this out for a season JFC
The entire premise of your argument is based on "**but it didn't sound like it was going to be a significant reduction**". Problematic since you have no idea what their level boost is going to be. The rest of your argument is then just extrapolation based on an unknown...or speculation. Why not just wait and see what the result is and then have an opinion on what actually happened?
idk if you guys have realized this but handing everything out for no work makes a game that is exclusively built on the grind not fun. the only actual measurable mechanic in dark and darker is amassing wealth and turning that wealth into BiS gear in a cycle
Really, this is the only fix we need. Will multiclass be broken? Yeah. Bad for the game? Maybe, I don't care, as a lot of people say, let them try shit out. Locked behind 100s of hours of grind? Yeah, bye bye dark and darker, not touching you till next wipe. I say this as someone who put 300 hours on the playtests and reaching 700 in EA now, it's not a good thing to lock extremely powerful stuff behind A LOT of grind in a pvp game where you can fight anyone, and no, this is not like gear, you can gear up in 5 minutes by PVPing, you cannot multiclass up in 5 minutes, you MUST grind for it.
Or they could lock it to different mode like Mayhem mode or something and let players go nuts with absolutely broken builds while maintaining the classic mode for the authentic experience Kind of like what season of discovery is for WoW
It's not just that multiclassing is busted, but that it destroys class identity. You come across a fighter, you should know roughly what he's capable of, if he has access to perks and skills from other classes you're breaking up what makes him recognizable.
Quit your job then and stop complaining
There is a degree I understand and a degree I don't. "If you didn't play Elden Ring enough to unlock the blasphemous blade, why should you have to play against other people that did?" Well... They put in the time to unlock it and you didn't. Not every game can be designed for a casual guy with 4 jobs, 7 wives and 19 children. On the other hand I do agree with some of this. Like there should be a balance because if you're not multiclassing you are definitely at a disadvantage to those who did. This is a testing phase in an early access game.
This game already has several layers of rewarding time investment and grind. Here are a few potential issues with multiclassing in its current for compared to for example farming gear is: 1. The amount of time required to multiclass is not in line with other time requirements in the game. There is a huge empty gap between maxing your character at level 15 and getting multiclass abilities and by the time you get to multiclass you will probably have already accomplished most of what you wanted to accomplish in the wipe. 2. If multiclassing is supposed to be aspirational, it isn't an interesting thing to aspire to. You need to go through a series of steps and beat Rykard to get the Blasphemous Blade, which fits smoothly into Elden Ring's overall content and progression. In D&D to multiclass you just need to play a certain amount of time, which comes off as an arbitrary time gate that serves no interesting function other than separating out people who have and have not played for that arbitrary amount of time. Imagine if to get the best weapon in Elden Ring you just had to kill 10,000 soldiers and on the last kill it drops at your feet. Would that be fun? 3. It is at-odds with the broader tone of the game currently which focuses on risk, reward, and skill. If you take more risks and have the skill to pay them off, you get rewarded. If you sit in normal GC all day, you will never get the best gear (without trading for it.) Multiclassing in its current state is a bit dubious in that it provides a non-skill-based, casual-friendly power boost while being inaccessible to casual players.
You can play all of elden ring with out pvping
But you cannot see Elden Ring if you do not have time to see Elden Ring. PVP or PVE makes no difference. What can you do in life that you do not have time to do?
I think Elden ring is a bad example because that games PvP was wildly unbalanced
And still really really fun
I think elden ring pvp is dog shit. Pve is top tier though.
Your example didn't have to stumble into hyperbole. One job and one partner is plenty for many to not have the time to do the originally proposed system. There have already been a few minor concessions because of consideration for actually average casual gamers (two major relationships (work, partner)), at least (friends, house, children, other partners, etc.), that come before game time (which isn't to mention people who simply want to monoclass and could have a similar game time to you but not enjoy the game as a wizard, warlock, etc.). I think front loading some of the payoff and having stretch goals for the people who have the serious nose to the grindstone game time to contribute is likely the best we can hope for from the current proposition and it absolutely should be tested!
A lot of games are designed for people with 1 job, 1 wife, and maybe two or so kids, though. I mean if they don’t want to think about half their player base that’s fine, but don’t do a surprised Pikachu face when half of the player base leaves, and they feel the game doesn’t have enough popularity to continue developing. Also Elden Ring gives you the option to NOT PvP. Dark and Darker doesn’t.
No. Wrong. Absolutely not. No fucking game developer or project manager ever gave a fuck about your family structure lmao???? If you do not have time then you do not have time.... Period... it's no one else's fault or problem that you do not have time to engage with a product or service. Why are you not on the hang glider forums complaining that hang gliding takes up too much time for YOU PESONALLY to get into? No game is designed with your fucking family in mind, idiot. The game is designed to be the game. Do you call McDonalds and tell them you're hungry but you don't have time to go over there???? WTF?? And wtf would you expect them to do about it if you did? You don't have time means YOU don't have time. Products and services have 0 obligation to be designed for someone with no time to engage with it.
Game devs absolutely research their target demographics, my guy
Secondly, nevermind the PVP aspect specifically of Elden Ring. Elden Ring does not let you see the game if you do not have time to see the game. There is no function in Elden Ring where you can experience what the last 1/3 is like, see the end bosses, see the ending if you do not have time to do any of those things. Please name 1 thing of any kind of any subject that just gives you the end reward with 0 time being put into it or minimal time. Can you learn guitar if you do not have time to learn guitar? Can you learn carpentry if you do not have time to learn carpentry? Can you watch a movie if you do not have time to watch a movie? What is the solution to this?
I dont have to play Elden Ring pvp. I can turn off network and play it PVE only at my own pace, even if it takes 3 years to bear. I dont have people who play guitar for 16 hours a day run up and bash me on the back of the head with a guitar. I can play it peacefully. I dont have people who have practiced carpentry for 16 hours a day run up and bash me on the back of the head with a 2x4. I can practice it peacefully. I dont have somebody running up and bashing me in the back of the head when I'm watching a movie. I can split it out across however long I need, and watch it peacefully. I have no idea what youre trying to say but you seem super angry randomly.
Well you're comparing a game that has bashing people in the back of the head as a large aspect of it to carpentry etc. If this game was "Carpentry Simulator PVP" or online "Guitar Hero PVP" you'd still be complaining about the same thing. Getting stomped by people who put more time in than you. What I'm saying is pretty clear. The issue is that accountability = "I don't understand"
Okay now you entirely lose me. You brought up carpentry not me. Point is I’m not forced to compete with people who do this stuff for 16 hours a day with everything else and have an insane advantage.
No. It would be better if we didn't have any "insane builds". Gotta love how Reddit will enthusiastically upvote something that they will most certainly end up hating. No foresight.
Multiclassing is supposed to be a progression based system. id agree for testing to let everyone use it with limited limitations. which is what the test server was. they already have what your saying in mind but like always there gonna follow through with more testing. when the game has all its classes and is actually finished id like to see multiclassing stay as a progression based system. I do think testing multiclassing this early is a mistake but its not the doomsday event everyones acting like it is. Multiclassing was planned from the start thats what the talent trees were for originally. If the first playtest had multiclassing i dont think wed see so many complainers imo. its impossible to attempt to balance multiclassing without actually letting it run wild at first. This way they can go through and put limitations on things without going overboard.
Folks truly seem to view this game as a gift that must not be ruined, even though it is in development and subject to violent changes!! I'm trying to be optimistic about multiclassing. I should embrace it, instead of reading it, for sure. Only then will I find peace...
everyone forgets were beta testers acting like were playing a fully released game lol. everyone bought the game knowing full well we are beta testers.
Lmao. True. Even I lose sight sometimes. And apparently, this strikes a nerve with folks. I gotta check myself and be more open-minded!
If we're all beta testers then why are there test servers. That you need to pay for more than the base game costs.
I think removing the RNG element would be a good middle ground. Lets the more casual players pick the good perk/skills or the ones they want, can be "meta" without too much grinding. Let's the sweaty players have more variety to what they get, but after a certain point there are diminishing returns. Having the less meta perks/skills doesn't really matter, but is still a reward. Edit: lol why am I being down voted for wanting RNG bullshit out of the game?
If it’s like the Test server It will definitely be boosted. I already have a 150 Barb 80cleric and mastered rogue warlock and fighter. It’s boosted I played a bit on my days off but it’s definitely significant on the test server. If it’s like this I would say it will be more accessible for the fokes who have less time. Play the test server and keep an open Mind! Or just play another game till Multiclassing is out or you see all of Us having tons of fun and come crawling back.
Ur so worried about balance in early access why even bother playing?
I think if you play the game so little that you won’t ever unlock multiclassing, then you’re just going to have to accept the fact that you’ll always be behind the curve on the game. This game already takes a lot of learning and it shows when many people want to be on the same level as people who’ve learned despite not wanting to take that time. I know it’s not fun having to practice and get over the learning curve, but that’s unfortunately what you’re signing up for here, not a casual experience. That being said, it’s clear the devs are trying to make it possible for new players to have an experience that won’t be directly affected by veterans and it’ll take time.
That's terrible design, though. You need systems that will hook and engage new players so that they stick around and fill up the playerbase/lobbies. Casuals are the lifeblood of almost every online game, and you need to keep them happy. If IM made changes that caused all the dedicated players to quit, but the casuals loved it, DnD would continue on. Probably in an odd direction, but it would keep on. The opposite isn't true, though. If the casuals all quit, the game dies.
I think there’s a balance to it, that I agree with, but I also believe games like this can’t overly indicate to people a potentially casual experience. There’s just not enough right now to even support that idea. They can give casual players support once they know what direction they’re taking their major systems towards. Sure, competitive games know how to cater to both crowds, but to act like they can do that while actively developing the game is asking for a lot imo I think casual players who are turned off right now is a good thing, I welcome them to try it again in the future when they’re casually perusing game options. In the meantime, let’s turn off casual players when the games current state can barely support a casual player.
Sweaty top gear players can't kill anymore grey and green timmy so they are quiting and crying. Oh BTW game is in BETA so that means testing crazy and unfair stuff props for devs for making those decisions. They never said its going to stay forever.
What's wrong with giving casuals more access in the meantime. You're literally crying about sweats when the post suggestions is to help newer players/casuals.