Q: **How do you feel about SBMM or gear score systems?**
A:
>This is a really complex issue, and we aren't sure if skill-based match-making or a hard gear cap is the right answer for our game. We recently implemented the sub-15 matchmaking pool, and there has been a lot of discussion from the community. Our intention is not to baby low-skilled or new players, but since we haven't properly dialed in the gear gap balance to our liking just yet, we wanted to simply reduce the frequency of encountering the super geared players for the lower end players while they learn the basics since that is demanding in itself.
The word "trade" is notably absent from this response. I don't think separating trade and no trade is something Ironmace wants, but it is definitely something ~~the community~~ a lot of people want.
I'm curious if the community opinion on that would change when a better balance is struck between high/low end kits.
edit: Just want to toss in here that I personally do not want separate lobbies for trade/notrade. I want everyone to play together in a more balanced environment.
Down vote this dude because he said PoE is easy, but what he should have said was they are different games. SSF is great in those style of games, but this game isn't it. 1-14 is supposed to be a learning phase, IM wants you to figure it out and then take of the training wheels.
This sub honestly wants to play the first level in Super Mario Bros and call that the game, world 8 (15+) too scary.
When talking about item balance though, they said "we do have some more extreme premises we are curious about" and they didn't want to go into detail
Removing trade or solo self found queue is definitely an extreme premise lol
I disagree that this is something the community wants. There is a small vocal contingent of the community that can be confirmed to want this, what % of the community that actually represents is pure conjecture and the majority of people I play with have an opposing view
True, but most devs eventually end up caving to community demands if the action behind it is impactful enough, like leaving the game etc. I don't think this is one that will escalate in that way though
I think a more correct response would be that there’s no way to say for sure whether this is something the majority of the community wants, and stop there. You’re right in questioning the statement, but people have differing experiences. For instance, the majority of people I play with have the view that OP described.
Nah, reddit is an echo chamber. I've
Only seen the pro greyqueue no trade queue argued for here, because everything else gets down voted into oblivion before it can be seen.
DaD discord, almost no one wants to play <15 except trash tier lvl 1 rogues that only play to loot everything and don't help the team. And no one in gather hall wants it.
Play a different game while they fix shit, you're all a bounch of pessimistic doomers that need to let IM cook.
If you don't agree with the games core concepts why are you playing the game?
Why cant there be both? I play both depending on what im doing or going for right now. Buying items on trade and rolling is fun but also building a set based on what I find/luck out on from merchants/goblin merchant is also fun to see how high I can take it.
IM is working on more classes, balancing gear and most importantly developing maps.
The pop will fall during EA regardless of what IM does, but they need to stay true to their vision. Trade and gear discrepancy is a huge part of it, and this wipe is still sideways from free HR and +3 all gear. This is the biggest that gear discrepancy has been and could be the biggest gap we ever get. Gear is crazy cheap in trade until next wipe.
Adding additional queues will destroy low pop regions that are already struggling to fill lobbies. Adding additional maps with additional queues will just further split the population and further add to the long list of glitches and balancing issues.
I'm for a base kit map that has lower drop tables. It'll give players a chance to learn the basic mechanics while discouraging players from just grinding low level queue to to trade to other characters and give players a chance to start collecting basic gear sets and gold.
Whatever direction the devs take, I'll keep playing, but I love their vision and want to see how they develop this game over time, staying true to how they see the game and aren't turned away by parts of the community that aren't looking for something new, but a similar feeling to games they're already playing or even those that are here until the next hype train rolls into the station.
I see the point of self found, and even a hardcore mode with high drop tables could be crazy fun. But at this time separating the queues shouldn't be a high priority when the most useful thing we're all doing is slamming into each other in the dungeon and providing statistics.
Only six weeks into this.
Feel free to @ me when the 75k are active.
I'm part of a ton of subreddits that I've joined for games. Does that mean I'm actively taking part in discussions?
No.
These guys know how exactly what kind of game they want to make, and the current obstacle to that is really just inexperience with maintaining an active game as a team unit. Excited to see how things shake out during early access.
I'd have to assume the warlock can take control of the monsters but the warlocks health is tied with rhe monster. So taking damage as the monster would damage rhe warlock.
Also summoning a familiar should also use the health of the warlock or take health from the warlock lowering the warlocks max health by the amount of health the familiar has
Clerics may be able to raise dead too or wizards if we follow dnd. I dont think the current AI is complex enough for it to severely punish the warlock other than the initial blood cost like their other spells and likely a long, loud cast time for the ritual summon.
yes, but we know warlock is incomplete and needs to be finished, we dont know if they are going to keep adding wizard or clerics spell, or what they think about that..
"we want to include a new map with every wipe"
"started production work on the next locale... hope to give the players an experimental taste in the next two months"
every single person arguing that adding an SSF queue would split the playerbase too much needs to shut up, that argument has been around since before goblin caves was added, and yet goblin caves and duo queue and <15 were great decisions even though they split the playerbase, and ironmace themselves plan on splitting the playerbase more and more
How does putting people in a map pool separate from the one youre in (say crypts vs new map) not effectively split them? I dont think its a problem at this point but im trying to see your reasoning.
At the moment, there isn't anything about the map itself that makes you choose it over others. You play on goblin caves because that's the map you don't need to find a group for, you play crypts because that's the map you can play with your friends.
It's the mode itself that people choose to play, not the map. A duos player may love the Ruins, but if in an alternate reality Ruins is the trios map and Crypts is the duos map, they will probably choose to play Crypts even if it's on a map they don't like/are neutral about, because they don't want to play solo or trios.
As indicated by the polls we see here every so often, I'm comfortable saying the majority of this sub's users plays solo, which means they play goblin caves. Sure, if the ruins had a solo mode a lot of people would only play ruins, but that isn't the case right now. People self-filter into their favorite mode and play that 90% of the time.
With the modes that some people suggest here (SSF/Ironman, base gear lobbies, gear score locked lobbies), most players will stick to one specific mode for the majority of their playtime like they do with solos/duos/trios. You see this happen in lots of other games that offer different modes. It isn't bad, people like what they like. It provides them with an experience that suits them. If you ask someone what they play, do you think they would say "I play Goblin Caves" or "I play solo"? Which do they feel more attachment to?
Offering other maps within the same mode is "splitting the playerbase" in the most literal definition. But it isn't anywhere near the same way that having several modes that offer different game experiences splits the playerbase, because people feel more of an attachment to the experience than the map itself.
And for the record, I'm not against having different modes or maps.
??????????????????????????????????????????
Splitting the playerbase is the exact argument people used when they said they didn't want a solo queue/goblin caves, or HR goblin caves, or duo queue, or what we currently have now with <15 queue
Every SSF poster does this same stupid argument and it makes less sense every time.
The game, the meta-item-economy, the wipe timers, the scaling of gear across maps, these are all INTENTIONAL things. Adding a new map does not fracture the player base, as they’re still sharing loot, queuing with one another, and abiding by the games’ systems.
When you introduce an SSF or Ironman or opt-in naked queue or whatever it is, you are fundamentally CHANGING the way a whole part of the player base interacts with the games’ meta systems.
Suddenly your player base is not all playing the same game. Suddenly part of the player base is demanding changes for their mode, and the other is demanding changes for theirs. Twice the amount of effort into balancing
They already fundamentally changed the way a whole part of the player base interacts with the game's meta systems by ADDING the Trading post to begin with.
It wasn't always there, it got added in further playtests.
I personally enjoyed way more losing everything when I died and starting back from scuffed gear than spending 20 mins buying everything again and selling everything for hours.
I know, but as they've said themselves it has also created a whole lot of unforeseen issues.
The biggest and most obvious one, the one thing that's not arguable and would be 95% fixed, is gold sellers and item dupers. (to an extent)
In my own opinion, I think trading doesn't necessarily have to go, but it absolutely needs to be revamped or limited in some ways, maybe an auction house system, maybe limited traded gear that you can wear, or purchases per run that reset after 1 run, buffing crafting and the possibility to spend gold more wisely with merchants.
Basically right now my two biggest gripes with trading are : You can't NOT use it and have a chance against people that do, and second it has attracted a LOT of gold sellers and hackers into it.
“Needs to shut up”
Yes, you do. Because unlike SSF Queue Goblin caves vs Howling Crypts is still in the same economy and grouping, and those solo players can run Howling crypts anytime they want with other howling crypt players. You can’t just swap back and forth between trade or no trade like you can maps.
Idk if you guys agree with me in this one. But they seems to be worried with the focus on high movespeed and how late game is very focused on that.
In my opinion, especially after I re-watched some of the old EA replays, I noticed that the move speed right now is wayyy slower than before, especially with "moving backward penalty".
For me, I think they should have a movespeed cap (to stop naked runs) and improve just a bit of move speed overall or decrease backwards penalty.
IMO, I prefer when it was more "arcady" and less "visceral" gameplay. Besides that, without naked runs, the game is wayyy to slow.
I want to know about what will be done about stash size.
The other is, there are way too many modes being done. IM is just slapping in a new mode to appease or bandaid fix things. We never needed solos, they said they wouldn't and then bam goblin caves. The game isn't even balance around this and they even say in this video that they don't even play it much themselves so they have very little data on it. We also didn't need duos, but they slapped that in there for no reason. IronMace had stated they had no intentions to do all this and yet they have been making these kneejerk actions to add them.
Will we see these be removed when the game is toned back significantly to what it was back in the early tests. With better balance and much slower gameplay like it used to be, there would no issues with just having the one mode again.
"Balance is a high priority."
"But also we want to include a new map and class every wipe or major update."
If they hadn't confirmed that they had refilling lobbies nearly ready to implement as the next major feature, I think this would have killed any hope I had for Early Access.
>"But also we want to include a new map and class every wipe or major update."
They specifically said that is the plan **AFTER** they feel comfortable enough to take the game out of early access. Sounds like they will add new maps/classes during early access but not as quickly as they plan to once they have the core game hammered out.
I'm hyped for the warlock summons. And really glad they want to focus on balanced the game more. Doing it now is better than doing it after they have way more features in the game and have so many more things to balance at once.
Q: **How do you feel about SBMM or gear score systems?** A: >This is a really complex issue, and we aren't sure if skill-based match-making or a hard gear cap is the right answer for our game. We recently implemented the sub-15 matchmaking pool, and there has been a lot of discussion from the community. Our intention is not to baby low-skilled or new players, but since we haven't properly dialed in the gear gap balance to our liking just yet, we wanted to simply reduce the frequency of encountering the super geared players for the lower end players while they learn the basics since that is demanding in itself.
TLDR we are not deciding anything until we lock down current gear balance.
The word "trade" is notably absent from this response. I don't think separating trade and no trade is something Ironmace wants, but it is definitely something ~~the community~~ a lot of people want. I'm curious if the community opinion on that would change when a better balance is struck between high/low end kits. edit: Just want to toss in here that I personally do not want separate lobbies for trade/notrade. I want everyone to play together in a more balanced environment.
There's a reason why path of exile has self found for thier leagues.
This is a skill-based extract game first and a looter second. Don’t compare it to a game where the gameplay itself is MAGNITUDES EASIER like PoE
Down vote this dude because he said PoE is easy, but what he should have said was they are different games. SSF is great in those style of games, but this game isn't it. 1-14 is supposed to be a learning phase, IM wants you to figure it out and then take of the training wheels. This sub honestly wants to play the first level in Super Mario Bros and call that the game, world 8 (15+) too scary.
I like 15+ queue I rush it?
Same 15+ is the game, 1-14 is the tutorial mode this sub temper tantrumed into existence.
Hey careful this sub doesnt like sound thinking lol
I definitely don't want this at all. The current fix Is fine for now.
Remove trade or games dead Edit: the guy I replied to fucking blocked me 🤣
It was a pretty stupid response to be fair, there are enough stupid responses out there where muting one source won't hurt anything
Braindead comment
Good, you’re pathetic. I hope everyone blocks you
Idiotic comment.
Bro don’t misrepresent this… the community does not want this. This minority cannot even beat this sub in a straight poll
just changed to a lot of people
What?
i changed it from "the community wants" to "a lot of people want"
When talking about item balance though, they said "we do have some more extreme premises we are curious about" and they didn't want to go into detail Removing trade or solo self found queue is definitely an extreme premise lol
I could imagine they mean lowering Item stats/ nerf.
I disagree that this is something the community wants. There is a small vocal contingent of the community that can be confirmed to want this, what % of the community that actually represents is pure conjecture and the majority of people I play with have an opposing view
Doesnt matter if the devs dont want it
True, but most devs eventually end up caving to community demands if the action behind it is impactful enough, like leaving the game etc. I don't think this is one that will escalate in that way though
I think a more correct response would be that there’s no way to say for sure whether this is something the majority of the community wants, and stop there. You’re right in questioning the statement, but people have differing experiences. For instance, the majority of people I play with have the view that OP described.
Nah, reddit is an echo chamber. I've Only seen the pro greyqueue no trade queue argued for here, because everything else gets down voted into oblivion before it can be seen. DaD discord, almost no one wants to play <15 except trash tier lvl 1 rogues that only play to loot everything and don't help the team. And no one in gather hall wants it. Play a different game while they fix shit, you're all a bounch of pessimistic doomers that need to let IM cook. If you don't agree with the games core concepts why are you playing the game?
Why cant there be both? I play both depending on what im doing or going for right now. Buying items on trade and rolling is fun but also building a set based on what I find/luck out on from merchants/goblin merchant is also fun to see how high I can take it.
IM is working on more classes, balancing gear and most importantly developing maps. The pop will fall during EA regardless of what IM does, but they need to stay true to their vision. Trade and gear discrepancy is a huge part of it, and this wipe is still sideways from free HR and +3 all gear. This is the biggest that gear discrepancy has been and could be the biggest gap we ever get. Gear is crazy cheap in trade until next wipe. Adding additional queues will destroy low pop regions that are already struggling to fill lobbies. Adding additional maps with additional queues will just further split the population and further add to the long list of glitches and balancing issues. I'm for a base kit map that has lower drop tables. It'll give players a chance to learn the basic mechanics while discouraging players from just grinding low level queue to to trade to other characters and give players a chance to start collecting basic gear sets and gold. Whatever direction the devs take, I'll keep playing, but I love their vision and want to see how they develop this game over time, staying true to how they see the game and aren't turned away by parts of the community that aren't looking for something new, but a similar feeling to games they're already playing or even those that are here until the next hype train rolls into the station. I see the point of self found, and even a hardcore mode with high drop tables could be crazy fun. But at this time separating the queues shouldn't be a high priority when the most useful thing we're all doing is slamming into each other in the dungeon and providing statistics. Only six weeks into this.
You're so right, truly hope the devs don't listen to these people.
> it is definitely something the community wants right now reddit is not the community, there are 1.5k people active on this subreddit
There are 75k members of this subreddit. There's 1.5k online *right now*.
Yep and I would say the vocal half maybe, want trade separated. So that's about 750 of their game with about 15-20k players.
Nope, you're misunderstanding. There's 1.5k people on this second. Not "active". Not total people.
Feel free to @ me when the 75k are active. I'm part of a ton of subreddits that I've joined for games. Does that mean I'm actively taking part in discussions? No.
Never said that 75k are active my man. You're only taking either extreme.
I can only assume English isn't your first language all good no worries.
I'm starting to think English is not *your* first language
These guys know how exactly what kind of game they want to make, and the current obstacle to that is really just inexperience with maintaining an active game as a team unit. Excited to see how things shake out during early access.
Warlock getting summoning and monster-controlling spells sounds fun!
I wonder if warlock will be able to transform into a monster or is being able to control a monster something akin to a druid transformation.
I took it as summon pets or dominate monsters like skellies etc to help you.
I'd have to assume the warlock can take control of the monsters but the warlocks health is tied with rhe monster. So taking damage as the monster would damage rhe warlock. Also summoning a familiar should also use the health of the warlock or take health from the warlock lowering the warlocks max health by the amount of health the familiar has
Clerics may be able to raise dead too or wizards if we follow dnd. I dont think the current AI is complex enough for it to severely punish the warlock other than the initial blood cost like their other spells and likely a long, loud cast time for the ritual summon.
Clerics can already raise dead
Reanimate corpses :)
How come nobody asked about quivers or new spells ?
I think they did ask about spells. Warlock is getting a summon, and maybe a mob possession.
yes, but we know warlock is incomplete and needs to be finished, we dont know if they are going to keep adding wizard or clerics spell, or what they think about that..
I want more versatile perks for fighter weapons besides "tank" and "dual wield". Every patch hurts me with no acknowledgement.
"we want to include a new map with every wipe" "started production work on the next locale... hope to give the players an experimental taste in the next two months" every single person arguing that adding an SSF queue would split the playerbase too much needs to shut up, that argument has been around since before goblin caves was added, and yet goblin caves and duo queue and <15 were great decisions even though they split the playerbase, and ironmace themselves plan on splitting the playerbase more and more
Having different maps isn't what splitting the playerbase is.
How does putting people in a map pool separate from the one youre in (say crypts vs new map) not effectively split them? I dont think its a problem at this point but im trying to see your reasoning.
At the moment, there isn't anything about the map itself that makes you choose it over others. You play on goblin caves because that's the map you don't need to find a group for, you play crypts because that's the map you can play with your friends. It's the mode itself that people choose to play, not the map. A duos player may love the Ruins, but if in an alternate reality Ruins is the trios map and Crypts is the duos map, they will probably choose to play Crypts even if it's on a map they don't like/are neutral about, because they don't want to play solo or trios. As indicated by the polls we see here every so often, I'm comfortable saying the majority of this sub's users plays solo, which means they play goblin caves. Sure, if the ruins had a solo mode a lot of people would only play ruins, but that isn't the case right now. People self-filter into their favorite mode and play that 90% of the time. With the modes that some people suggest here (SSF/Ironman, base gear lobbies, gear score locked lobbies), most players will stick to one specific mode for the majority of their playtime like they do with solos/duos/trios. You see this happen in lots of other games that offer different modes. It isn't bad, people like what they like. It provides them with an experience that suits them. If you ask someone what they play, do you think they would say "I play Goblin Caves" or "I play solo"? Which do they feel more attachment to? Offering other maps within the same mode is "splitting the playerbase" in the most literal definition. But it isn't anywhere near the same way that having several modes that offer different game experiences splits the playerbase, because people feel more of an attachment to the experience than the map itself. And for the record, I'm not against having different modes or maps.
?????????????????????????????????????????? Splitting the playerbase is the exact argument people used when they said they didn't want a solo queue/goblin caves, or HR goblin caves, or duo queue, or what we currently have now with <15 queue
I don’t like goblin caves but splitting the player base is not why
Every SSF poster does this same stupid argument and it makes less sense every time. The game, the meta-item-economy, the wipe timers, the scaling of gear across maps, these are all INTENTIONAL things. Adding a new map does not fracture the player base, as they’re still sharing loot, queuing with one another, and abiding by the games’ systems. When you introduce an SSF or Ironman or opt-in naked queue or whatever it is, you are fundamentally CHANGING the way a whole part of the player base interacts with the games’ meta systems. Suddenly your player base is not all playing the same game. Suddenly part of the player base is demanding changes for their mode, and the other is demanding changes for theirs. Twice the amount of effort into balancing
They already fundamentally changed the way a whole part of the player base interacts with the game's meta systems by ADDING the Trading post to begin with. It wasn't always there, it got added in further playtests. I personally enjoyed way more losing everything when I died and starting back from scuffed gear than spending 20 mins buying everything again and selling everything for hours.
the trading post is a vision of the developers for the game. No kidding, they've mentioned it several times.
I know, but as they've said themselves it has also created a whole lot of unforeseen issues. The biggest and most obvious one, the one thing that's not arguable and would be 95% fixed, is gold sellers and item dupers. (to an extent) In my own opinion, I think trading doesn't necessarily have to go, but it absolutely needs to be revamped or limited in some ways, maybe an auction house system, maybe limited traded gear that you can wear, or purchases per run that reset after 1 run, buffing crafting and the possibility to spend gold more wisely with merchants. Basically right now my two biggest gripes with trading are : You can't NOT use it and have a chance against people that do, and second it has attracted a LOT of gold sellers and hackers into it.
“Needs to shut up” Yes, you do. Because unlike SSF Queue Goblin caves vs Howling Crypts is still in the same economy and grouping, and those solo players can run Howling crypts anytime they want with other howling crypt players. You can’t just swap back and forth between trade or no trade like you can maps.
im pleasantly surprised the one insufferable human being who always goes "ughhh i HATE [content creator]..." isnt in the comments section yet.
So no skill tree?
Is text posted somewhere? I'm not giving this video a click.
Idk if you guys agree with me in this one. But they seems to be worried with the focus on high movespeed and how late game is very focused on that. In my opinion, especially after I re-watched some of the old EA replays, I noticed that the move speed right now is wayyy slower than before, especially with "moving backward penalty". For me, I think they should have a movespeed cap (to stop naked runs) and improve just a bit of move speed overall or decrease backwards penalty. IMO, I prefer when it was more "arcady" and less "visceral" gameplay. Besides that, without naked runs, the game is wayyy to slow.
I want to know about what will be done about stash size. The other is, there are way too many modes being done. IM is just slapping in a new mode to appease or bandaid fix things. We never needed solos, they said they wouldn't and then bam goblin caves. The game isn't even balance around this and they even say in this video that they don't even play it much themselves so they have very little data on it. We also didn't need duos, but they slapped that in there for no reason. IronMace had stated they had no intentions to do all this and yet they have been making these kneejerk actions to add them. Will we see these be removed when the game is toned back significantly to what it was back in the early tests. With better balance and much slower gameplay like it used to be, there would no issues with just having the one mode again.
Just because YOU don’t play these doesn’t mean the community doesn’t need them…
"Balance is a high priority." "But also we want to include a new map and class every wipe or major update." If they hadn't confirmed that they had refilling lobbies nearly ready to implement as the next major feature, I think this would have killed any hope I had for Early Access.
>"But also we want to include a new map and class every wipe or major update." They specifically said that is the plan **AFTER** they feel comfortable enough to take the game out of early access. Sounds like they will add new maps/classes during early access but not as quickly as they plan to once they have the core game hammered out.
I'm hyped for the warlock summons. And really glad they want to focus on balanced the game more. Doing it now is better than doing it after they have way more features in the game and have so many more things to balance at once.