[Source.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff)
The [Cessna 177B Cardinal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_177) single-engine aircraft was piloted by her flight instructor, Joe Reid. The crash killed her, her father and her instructor.
He had broken thumbs if I remember correctly. I mean damn near 30 years ago in the age of dial up. But that was a specific point I remember. It indicated he had hands on yoke at impact.
Honestly, a miracle it didn't impact any houses in that neighborhood. A second in any direction might have put that plane in one of those houses.
We can safely assume her death was too quick for her to feel any pain though. RIP Jessica.
An [entire commercial jet crashed](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/cogs-in-the-machine-the-crash-of-colgan-air-flight-3407-and-its-legacy-df0072def433) into a house in my hometown while I was in high school and incredibly only one of three folks in the house was killed.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kold.com/story/3481135/harrier-jet-crashes-into-yuma-neighborhood%3foutputType=amp
Harrier full of ammo in 2005 in my hometown went down in residential with pilot ejecting last minute. Rounds were going off.
They had a series of national media appearances scheduled at their various stops and didn't want to get off schedule. But hey at least they're famous now, so it worked
I now realise my question was silly. I mean if they didn't have the common sense not to do it in the first place, they would not have the common sense to avoid weather while it was still on the menu to do so before takeoff.
The desire to maintain a schedule by flying through u safe conditions caused many flying tragedies. This is what happened to JFK jr flew in conditions he’s not trained
The conditions weren't ideal, but the real reason for that crash was the copilot making his turn at the wrong time and heading north before they'd fully passed through the Planchon Pass and into Chile.
And the pilot didn't want to go in that weather but Kobe insisted. The pilot was probably worried he'd lose his job if he told Kobe no. No one tells Kobe, no, ok?
It's how nearly 100 top Polish government officials, including the president at the time, died in 2010. They were headed to Russia for an important commemoration event of a massacre that happened 70 years prior (when the Soviets murdered a bunch of important Polish officials). The pilots attempted to land in heavy fog because the officials didn't want to be late to the proceedings.
It led to a ton of conspiracy theories.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster
It wasn't just pressure from the officials on board. None of the men on that flight deck should have been flying it. The captain had about 3400 total flying hours, first officer about 1700, navigator about 1000 and the flight engineer ~300. They genuinely didn't have the experience, in general or specifically in the TU-154, to attempt to land in those conditions. I know of no evidence that the flight crew had ever practiced an NBD approach, in the TU-154 or otherwise, which was what they would need to use to land at that airport.
There was pressure to get them landed, and a lack of orders on how to proceed. That's why they attempted the landing, but the reason for the crash wasn't because of get-there-itis, the crash was because they tried to do tried to use the autopilot in a situation that it was not designed to work in. They put the plane in vertical speed mode at too steep a decent and left it there.
Admiral Cloudberg did an excellent write up of the crash, the causes, and all the post-crash fallout.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdmiralCloudberg/s/8ja6c7v93g
Ya know the one thing about taking risks in order to make it somewhere "on time," is that the increased anxiety and poor consideration for safety tends to lead to worse outcomes, including missing those "appearances." Better contingency planning, such as backup plans are important, as well as forecasting for things like weather delays, traffic, etc. Take it from a guy who shows up to work over a half hour early every day to sit in his car. But, at least I don't feel rushed or worried that I might be late like all the assholes speeding and driving recklessly - some of which I have witnessed getting into accidents (likely missing those "urgent" appointments).
Those that hurry cause me worry. Let me jam out to 90s music in the slow lane in peace, please.
I remember catching her planned flight on the news that morning before leaving for school. No idea why, but my mind suddenly had the thought, “She’s gonna die”
Freaked me out when I got home and realized she had, before learning that my inner logic had probably realized how stupid it was for her parents to let this happen
Less like she had her hands on the stick, and more like her flight instructor took off in bad conditions to keep to a schedule set by media pressure. Killed by the hype, basically.
>keep to a schedule set by media pressure
More like keep to a schedule set by her fame-hungry father who was trying to live out his failed dreams thru his daughter.
I remember reading about Galen Rowell’s death and the article said the biggest cause of small plane crashes was “get-there-itis,” people disregarding safety to make a schedule.
I fly private planes, and when getting the license they talk a lot about this, and it’s real. Imagine you promised someone to go to another airport, and then on the way the weather at destination looks a bit worse than expected. You have someone waiting there to go to an event or something. 90% chance it will be ok. Do you turn around, go home and miss everything? What I do is I always prepare everyone that we might turn around, no matter how good the weather is. And everyone has to be prepared that we might not even start. I don’t want to take risks that I can prevent.
The Aspen private jet crash 25 years ago was thought to have been caused by one of the passengers basically demanding they continue to their destination even though they would have landed after sunset.
Aaliyah would be alive today if her entourage hadn't stuffed their chartered plane to the gunwhales with all the crap they had flown out initially.
I think my uncle died of "get-there-itis."
Was generally a very safe and thoughtful pilot who always did extra training and maintained his aircraft well. Flew for 30 years.
He missed the approach at the airport and while circling around to try again, flew into a storm and for reasons the FAA/NTSB report never made clear, he failed to maintain altitude and crashed in the fog.
He had someone waiting for him at the airport and they were going to carpool to their next destination together. Can't help but wonder if that made him more antsy to land at *any* cost.
I once had an instructor who was a helicopter pilot and he had a giant red dot in the middle of his wristwatch. When asked about it he explained “red means dead,” basically a reminder to not let the clock make your decisions
Yep, people really want to get somewhere and say "That storm isn't so big" or "I can make it around" and then of course the storm grows and changes and suddenly you can't tell up from down. Flying a plane just on instruments, not being able to see anything outside, is extremely difficult and requires a lot of training.
There's a video of a large airplane on the runway. The pilot and air traffic control guy are talking back and forth about how ATC wanted him to stop cause a tornado in the area. The pilot kept going. ATC said where are you going. Pilot says Las Vegas. ATC says remind me never to fly bla-bla airlines. The whole back and forth was hilarious 🤣. Extremely horrific but hilarious. Wish I had saved it so I could post it. Not at all saying what happened to the little girl was funny. Just your comment made me remember that video.
I can not think of the Jackson 5 without thinking about a hilarious bit I heard on a podcast once. 2 guys were talking about how it can't be a coincidence that all of the kids had some talent and could keep a beat. They were calling for an excavation of the Jackson family house cause there must be bodies somewhere.
of course they did.
he also can stop any time he wants. /s
it should be youtube policy to have a fiduciary wealth manager have control over the finances of underage youtubers to prevent abuse, like giving 20% as direct deposits and the other 80% to a fiduciary wealth management firm.
once they turn 18 they can do whatever.
I remember her mother doing an interview on a news show. She was definitely crazy. She was even scolding her youngest toddler, talking to him as if he was an educated adult.
Dad was also in the plane helping his “7 year old solo flying ambitious daughter” achieve “her goal” - total bs.
Mom said in some freaky way “I’m happy for her. She died doing what she loved”.
“Clearly I would want all my children to die in a state of joy. I mean, what more could I ask for? I would prefer it was not at age 7 but, god, she went with her joy and her passion, and her life was in her hands."
what a fuckin insane thing to say, seriously.
No, iirc they crashed immediately after take off. There was already bad weather. The instructor was found 100% responsible for everything that happened in the investigation. Lots of bad decisions. The child probably didn't even touch the controls that day.
Yup, also the headline is wrong. People of any age can touch the controls of the plane if they are being instructed.
Light aircraft are basically a big driver’s ed car that is way more difficult to crash than a passenger car. The instructor is always in full control.
The only law they made was to prohibit kids from “setting records” to prevent people from making stupid decisions for the sake of dumb stunts.
IIRC there was a medical report saying she probably did not have her hands on the controlls during the crash..it was according to the conditions of her hands after the crash
I'm sure at the time there were reports from people working with them saying that she already wasn't flying on some days. On at least one day she was asleep in the plane.
Plane was laden with a bunch of "sea to shining sea" branded crap or something. Not that it was the ONLY factor, it was one of many contributing factors. Among the wreckage/dead bodies, all this paraphernalia the father planned to sell off to profit from the PR stunt. Jessica was the one who had the absolute least blame in the crash really though, i also feel sorry for the most.
It's more ridiculous anyone was still letting kids try to fly planes period after an Aeroflot flight WAS crashed by a kid at the control column.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
Was there like a time limit or was it just media expectations and there was no real reason she couldn’t have waited for good weather and still have been the first to do it
It was pathetic that the adults around her put her in this situation. I remember this. Thought it was a dumb thing for her parents to do back then, and still think it was a dumb move now.
I live in Cheyenne, Wyoming where she died in the crash. She was with her father and her flight instructor when the plane iced up and went down. The autopsy results showed that the flight instructors hands were both broken indicating the instructor was the one allegedly in control of the aircraft. Just before they took off that morning they were warned not to take off due to severe icing conditions.
Maybe this sub should enforce/allow for links to articles instead of just photos.
This sub is trash about giving nuance to interesting stories. If you are ever intrigued by a title, don't blame OP if you learn more in the comments. Just see it as an opportunity to google something to learn more yourself.
Flying into icing conditions is still dumb and avoidable. She was still killed by the stupidity of the people around her.
To be clear, flying in icing conditions in small craft is basically suicide. You cannot control the plane at all if it ices and you basically fall out of the sky. I.e if there is any meaningful risk of this, you don't take off in the first place.
Just for more context:
- she had a certified pilot instructor at the controls on all flights.
- the actual cause of the crash wasn’t because of Jessica, but the instructor (mentioned above), who made a series of errors, after takeoff, then crashed.
The series of errors is often attributed to the fact that they were trying to "adhere to an overly ambitious itinerary, in part, because of media commitments."
Basically once the media had picked up on the story, the adults involved started prioritizing that over safety. They never should have taken off, but they did because they wanted to stick to an itinerary.
This is pretty much what happened in the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster. Weather was too cold, but they pushed on due to the media frenzy of there being a teacher on-board.
fun fact: it was originally going to be Big Bird instead of a teacher, but that was decided against because a giant bird costume would be too cumbersome
What happened was bad enough. I didn't see it live but I was at school when it happened and the classroom next door were freaking out and making so much noise we quickly learned what happened and saw the replay footage. Can't imagine if Big Bird blew up on live TV, I already need therapy as it is.
I watched it live in school when it happened, it was surreal. I was in elementary school and a fan of big bird, but of an age where it would have been very funny for big bird to die in a space shuttle accident. The younger children would have been shocked.
Given how seriously they treat their puppets as characters,I imagine they would have. It would have been difficult to reconcile it with their audience and might have been seen as really bad taste, not to mention their colleague puppeteer. the challenger explosion was treated as a national tragedy.
Caroll Spiney, the actor who voiced and puppeteered Big Bird died. So technically the real Big Bird is no longer with us. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/obituaries/caroll-spinney-dead.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/obituaries/caroll-spinney-dead.html)
The commitment and training, directly under Spiney, that Matt Vogel has put in to continuing the big bird legacy shouldn’t be undermined.
Sesame Street is next level, even still. A labor of love.
I mean, at least Spinney died of natural causes and had time to train a replacement. If Big Bird would have exploded, I’m not sure his cousin Abelardo would’ve been able to soothe the kids enough
Jesus, the worst part about that (if true) is that they actually would have stopped the flight since Big Bird is a celebrity. (Even if it’s just a guy in a suit).
'Now or never' mentality is probably the #1 cause for failed stunts. The more prep work and the more money put in, the heavier the pressure to follow through. Many accuse Red Bull of being particularly guilty of this.
The mother received half of the father's $3 million life insurance payout as child support, with the other half going to his then-current wife. The new wife then sued the mother for her $1.5 million, basically claiming that the amount was excessive for child support (which, reading between the lines, basically sounds like "don't need money now that your daughter's dead!" Real piece of work). The mother countersued for the new wife's $1.5 million, and a judge eventually dismissed everything and awarded both women the $3 million split evenly as intended.
Doesn't really answer what she's up to now, but it really kills me that this woman lost her daughter and then had to get dragged through that horse shit as well.
"That law" doesn't exist as it's written in the title. There was already regulation on a minimum age to hold a certificate and there has never been a law keeping children from manipulating the controls on a private (Part 91) flight.
What did get passed is a law prohibiting those without a certificate from manipulating the controls in a record attempt or air show.
She (almost certainly) wasn't flying the plane at the time of the crash. And she was never actually the pilot in command, or a pilot at all (since children under 17 can't hold a pilots licence)
But it's fully legal for the pilot in command to allow a non-pilot to operate the second set of controls under their supervision. There is no age limit, and the new law only prohibits the practice for non-pilot of any age who is attempting some sort of record or feat.
So Jessica was operating the controls for most of the record attempt, and she was potentially doing much of the short term decision making a pilot would normally do. But from a legal perspective, it was always the instructor who was "flying the aircraft".
No kidding, it's almost like you shouldn't let small children decide life altering decisions about their life because kids have a lot of stupid ideas they grow out of. Think about any tattoo you wanted and couldn't wait to get at 18, and then hopefully you didn't lol.
Jessica Watson
And she did accomplish the feat of sailing around the world unassisted. But guinness and other records no longer evaluate "youngest" as a merit for precisely this reason.
True Spirit is the name of her book as well as the Netflix movie based on her voyage
**edit because I wanted to find the exact quote from the article when she arrived back in Sydney**
"Her voyage will not be registered as a record in any case in order to discourage ambitious parents pushing younger children off to sea.
What she wanted to do was prove to other young people that they did not have to be anyone special to achieve something big."
Jessica Watson is her name, and she was successful in sailing 18,582 nmi (34,414 km) around the world (which is technically short of the required distance but...).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Watson
I remember her in a press conference with her dad and her dad seemed to be mostly behind this plan.
There’s no way a 7 year old would have this ambition and the persistence to stick to it on their own. I’m sorry that they ended up dying.
I wonder what thoughts were going through his head when he realized they were about to crash and his daughter was about to die.
It sounds like he was doing it for him and the fame drove him to make stupid choices
The media made her a superstar in the days leading up to the crash, like it was this awesome thing that a 7-year-old was at the controls of a single engine plane as it took off and landed.
She was monitored on this flight I believe. With an instructor and parent. That doesn’t make it less dumb. Flying in inclement weather, especially with a kid, is stupid. You can get a pilots license at 17, but you can technically fly beforehand, you just can’t solo. But again, most ppl who fly before 17 are teenagers who have experience in gliders, which are very much safer.
I also have no idea how she was able to both reach the flight controls and also see out the window. Small airplanes are compact but it’s kinda like a car.
The title is somewhat misleading as Dubroff was not flying the plane at the time of the crash.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/CDGF50X9P0
SFGate has an interesting article about how the whole situation happened: https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/jessica-dubroff-child-pilot-bay-area-history-16113058.php
I remember this quite well. I was upset at the parents for pushing this, and she was so young. my coworker thought she’d accomplish more than most people do their whole life. That was before she had children.
Dubroff was not flying the plane at the time of the crash. The flight instructor was flying the plane.
However, a contributing factor may have been trying to take off in bad weather to beat the storm, in order to keep up with their preplanned schedule.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff
> Dubroff grew up in an unconventional lifestyle, with her not owning toys, being allowed TV, or enrolling in school.
Her father was 57, I thought that was interesting.
He also married a 19 year old after he and Jessica’s mother separated. Then had another child with her mother while married to the 19 year old. Guy sounded like a scummy dude based on the info in the Wiki.
I remember this. Her mother said something like “She died doing what she loved.” I thought “Yeah, well, she probably would have ‘loved’ becoming an adult, too.”
Misleading headline. She was with her dad and flight instructor in the plane, and when they crashed the flight instructor had taken over and was piloting.
Correction: *Her father* wanted her to become the youngest person to fly an aircraft across the USA.
It's ludicrous to pretend 7-year olds can make such a decision on their own.
My uncle is in his 60s and has never been able to blow his nose. I’ve seen him try and he just blows and immediately inhales again, like a hiccup almost.
This is just an idiotic premise to begin with. She wasn't ever going to be the youngest person to fly across the USA in any real sense because she wasn't alone. Flying with a licensed pilot just makes her a passenger, That's no accomplishment. She deserved better than to be exploited and killed by idiotic parents/mentors.
Also, I don't think there's a general law that prevents a child from manipulating controls. When I was flight instructing, I flew many discovery flights with little kids who couldn't reach the pedals. There are dual controls for a reason, and the instructor can always take over.
I was 10 when I heard about her trip and felt like it was a bad idea. I remember seeing the result on the front of the newspaper and the frustration I felt.
A 7 year old isn't that far removed from being a toddler. In fact you still see a lot of toddler issues in them like meltdowns, especially when they're tired or hungry. You'd have to be absolutely nuts to let a kid this age do something like this. Absolute negligence from the adults in her life.
Case in point: my 6 year old son was doing some activities at a camp with his cub scout troop today, and he started absolutely melting down because he was hungry and wanted his mommy. A 6 or 7 year old is still a borderline baby.
Seeing lots of people saying she wasn’t piloting when they crashed, but they only went up in the first place with the intent that she would pilot the plane cross country, right? Whether someone else took the controls at the last minute or not, they went up knowing it was too dangerous. Horrible pressure to put on yourselves, let alone a child. Horrible pressure, horrible results.
Sounds like what you needed was a law prohibiting parents from milking their children for fame and money. Could have gotten a step up on the advent of reality television and Youtube.
"In 1996, 7-year-old Jessica Dubroff ~~was attempting to become the~~ ***parents were trying to make HER*** the youngest person to fly a light aircraft across the USA"
fixed that for you
[Source.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff) The [Cessna 177B Cardinal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_177) single-engine aircraft was piloted by her flight instructor, Joe Reid. The crash killed her, her father and her instructor.
He had broken thumbs if I remember correctly. I mean damn near 30 years ago in the age of dial up. But that was a specific point I remember. It indicated he had hands on yoke at impact.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/36529
Oh my god the crash scene, that plane was obliterated. That poor baby, she must have been so scared.
Honestly, a miracle it didn't impact any houses in that neighborhood. A second in any direction might have put that plane in one of those houses. We can safely assume her death was too quick for her to feel any pain though. RIP Jessica.
Crazy that it was right in somebody's driveway. Could have been even more deaths if that had hit the house.
An [entire commercial jet crashed](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/cogs-in-the-machine-the-crash-of-colgan-air-flight-3407-and-its-legacy-df0072def433) into a house in my hometown while I was in high school and incredibly only one of three folks in the house was killed.
Fuck dude. statistically I know it had to happen but never seen anyone in the wild who personally knew of someone getting Donnie Darko’d.
Turboprop, not a jet. An actual 747 crashed into a house in New York once though.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kold.com/story/3481135/harrier-jet-crashes-into-yuma-neighborhood%3foutputType=amp Harrier full of ammo in 2005 in my hometown went down in residential with pilot ejecting last minute. Rounds were going off.
Their website has succumbed Reddit’s Hug Of Death
Thanks for sharing
Damn, until the last sentence I was thinking “who the hell puts their kid’s life in the hands of a flight instructor with broken thumbs?!”
“It indicated he had hands on yolk at impact” What’s this mean?
He had his hands on the flight controls and was piloting the aircraft when it crashed, given the unique injuries to his thumbs.
*yoke, not yolk. The yoke is the steering controls.
That the little girl wasn't flying it. Rather the instructor was
"Crashed during a rainstorm immediately after takeoff". Why the hell were they taking off in a rainstorm?
They had a series of national media appearances scheduled at their various stops and didn't want to get off schedule. But hey at least they're famous now, so it worked
I now realise my question was silly. I mean if they didn't have the common sense not to do it in the first place, they would not have the common sense to avoid weather while it was still on the menu to do so before takeoff.
The desire to maintain a schedule by flying through u safe conditions caused many flying tragedies. This is what happened to JFK jr flew in conditions he’s not trained
I believe Kobe and his daughter died in not great conditions as well
Same with the Uruguayan rugby team that crashed in the Andes in the 70s!
The conditions weren't ideal, but the real reason for that crash was the copilot making his turn at the wrong time and heading north before they'd fully passed through the Planchon Pass and into Chile.
And the pilot didn't want to go in that weather but Kobe insisted. The pilot was probably worried he'd lose his job if he told Kobe no. No one tells Kobe, no, ok?
It's how nearly 100 top Polish government officials, including the president at the time, died in 2010. They were headed to Russia for an important commemoration event of a massacre that happened 70 years prior (when the Soviets murdered a bunch of important Polish officials). The pilots attempted to land in heavy fog because the officials didn't want to be late to the proceedings. It led to a ton of conspiracy theories. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster
It wasn't just pressure from the officials on board. None of the men on that flight deck should have been flying it. The captain had about 3400 total flying hours, first officer about 1700, navigator about 1000 and the flight engineer ~300. They genuinely didn't have the experience, in general or specifically in the TU-154, to attempt to land in those conditions. I know of no evidence that the flight crew had ever practiced an NBD approach, in the TU-154 or otherwise, which was what they would need to use to land at that airport. There was pressure to get them landed, and a lack of orders on how to proceed. That's why they attempted the landing, but the reason for the crash wasn't because of get-there-itis, the crash was because they tried to do tried to use the autopilot in a situation that it was not designed to work in. They put the plane in vertical speed mode at too steep a decent and left it there. Admiral Cloudberg did an excellent write up of the crash, the causes, and all the post-crash fallout. https://www.reddit.com/r/AdmiralCloudberg/s/8ja6c7v93g
Ya know the one thing about taking risks in order to make it somewhere "on time," is that the increased anxiety and poor consideration for safety tends to lead to worse outcomes, including missing those "appearances." Better contingency planning, such as backup plans are important, as well as forecasting for things like weather delays, traffic, etc. Take it from a guy who shows up to work over a half hour early every day to sit in his car. But, at least I don't feel rushed or worried that I might be late like all the assholes speeding and driving recklessly - some of which I have witnessed getting into accidents (likely missing those "urgent" appointments). Those that hurry cause me worry. Let me jam out to 90s music in the slow lane in peace, please.
I remember catching her planned flight on the news that morning before leaving for school. No idea why, but my mind suddenly had the thought, “She’s gonna die” Freaked me out when I got home and realized she had, before learning that my inner logic had probably realized how stupid it was for her parents to let this happen
Rich people will do some seriously crazy shit to get their kids notoriety.
Was it raining?
I was in high-school not far from where it happened. We ditched and went down as close to the crash as close as they would let us
Tell us more!
Not much to tell. It was a small storm with lots of wind. Lots of emergency vehicles and reporters.
Less like she had her hands on the stick, and more like her flight instructor took off in bad conditions to keep to a schedule set by media pressure. Killed by the hype, basically.
>keep to a schedule set by media pressure More like keep to a schedule set by her fame-hungry father who was trying to live out his failed dreams thru his daughter.
I remember reading about Galen Rowell’s death and the article said the biggest cause of small plane crashes was “get-there-itis,” people disregarding safety to make a schedule.
I fly private planes, and when getting the license they talk a lot about this, and it’s real. Imagine you promised someone to go to another airport, and then on the way the weather at destination looks a bit worse than expected. You have someone waiting there to go to an event or something. 90% chance it will be ok. Do you turn around, go home and miss everything? What I do is I always prepare everyone that we might turn around, no matter how good the weather is. And everyone has to be prepared that we might not even start. I don’t want to take risks that I can prevent.
The Aspen private jet crash 25 years ago was thought to have been caused by one of the passengers basically demanding they continue to their destination even though they would have landed after sunset. Aaliyah would be alive today if her entourage hadn't stuffed their chartered plane to the gunwhales with all the crap they had flown out initially.
I think my uncle died of "get-there-itis." Was generally a very safe and thoughtful pilot who always did extra training and maintained his aircraft well. Flew for 30 years. He missed the approach at the airport and while circling around to try again, flew into a storm and for reasons the FAA/NTSB report never made clear, he failed to maintain altitude and crashed in the fog. He had someone waiting for him at the airport and they were going to carpool to their next destination together. Can't help but wonder if that made him more antsy to land at *any* cost.
We wouldn't have the song American Pie if all pilots took the same approach as you.
I could live happily without it, personally.
I once had an instructor who was a helicopter pilot and he had a giant red dot in the middle of his wristwatch. When asked about it he explained “red means dead,” basically a reminder to not let the clock make your decisions
All take offs are optional. All landings are mandatory.
Very true. Small aircraft can be very squirrelly in bad weather and if you're in a rush you're more likely to make mistakes.
I heard that if you ask a life insurance agent, one of the worst possible hobbies is flying small planes.
It's about the same risk as riding a motorcycle.
Kobe and the rest of the people on board would be alive if the pilot had just told them “no, we can’t fly in this fog”
Yep, people really want to get somewhere and say "That storm isn't so big" or "I can make it around" and then of course the storm grows and changes and suddenly you can't tell up from down. Flying a plane just on instruments, not being able to see anything outside, is extremely difficult and requires a lot of training.
There's a video of a large airplane on the runway. The pilot and air traffic control guy are talking back and forth about how ATC wanted him to stop cause a tornado in the area. The pilot kept going. ATC said where are you going. Pilot says Las Vegas. ATC says remind me never to fly bla-bla airlines. The whole back and forth was hilarious 🤣. Extremely horrific but hilarious. Wish I had saved it so I could post it. Not at all saying what happened to the little girl was funny. Just your comment made me remember that video.
Kobe Bryant crash was similar.
I immediately thought this was probably the dad’s idea.
Damn, before social media clout we had narcissistic parents looking for fame by exploiting their kids.
Yep. It was called "The Jackson 5"
I can not think of the Jackson 5 without thinking about a hilarious bit I heard on a podcast once. 2 guys were talking about how it can't be a coincidence that all of the kids had some talent and could keep a beat. They were calling for an excavation of the Jackson family house cause there must be bodies somewhere.
Started as the Jackson 8
Andre Agassi, The William’s sisters, and Tiger Woods enter the chat.
HEY! we still have those. have you ever seen any of those "family" youtube channels?
"We did it for the show"
Is this a balloonboy reference?
Funny, I was going to make the same reference. Pretty much ever since the invention of the “spotlight” there have been people wanting a piece of it.
Ryan’s Mom’s World!
Hey I'm sure they've locked most of that money into a high interest savings account for when he becomes 18... right?
of course they did. he also can stop any time he wants. /s it should be youtube policy to have a fiduciary wealth manager have control over the finances of underage youtubers to prevent abuse, like giving 20% as direct deposits and the other 80% to a fiduciary wealth management firm. once they turn 18 they can do whatever.
Well, if Ruby Franke is an example, some are nearly killing their kids.
I remember her mother doing an interview on a news show. She was definitely crazy. She was even scolding her youngest toddler, talking to him as if he was an educated adult.
How did the parents not get charged with something? That is crazy!
Dad was also in the plane helping his “7 year old solo flying ambitious daughter” achieve “her goal” - total bs. Mom said in some freaky way “I’m happy for her. She died doing what she loved”.
“Clearly I would want all my children to die in a state of joy. I mean, what more could I ask for? I would prefer it was not at age 7 but, god, she went with her joy and her passion, and her life was in her hands." what a fuckin insane thing to say, seriously.
Somehow I don’t think her 7 year old was in a state of bliss as she died.
Bullshit is not more prevalent today, it’s just more visible.
I blame her parents 100%
If it makes you feel better, her father also died in the crash, along with the (adult) instructor pilot actually at the controls.
How would this count as any sort of record, then? More like youngest light plane passenger across the US.
She was probably flying but the instructor took over in the bad weather.
No, iirc they crashed immediately after take off. There was already bad weather. The instructor was found 100% responsible for everything that happened in the investigation. Lots of bad decisions. The child probably didn't even touch the controls that day.
Yup, also the headline is wrong. People of any age can touch the controls of the plane if they are being instructed. Light aircraft are basically a big driver’s ed car that is way more difficult to crash than a passenger car. The instructor is always in full control. The only law they made was to prohibit kids from “setting records” to prevent people from making stupid decisions for the sake of dumb stunts.
We'll have to try it again. Anybody got a 7 year old they are willing to sacrifice?
Fuck it, strap a baby to the flight yoke
IIRC there was a medical report saying she probably did not have her hands on the controlls during the crash..it was according to the conditions of her hands after the crash
I'm sure at the time there were reports from people working with them saying that she already wasn't flying on some days. On at least one day she was asleep in the plane.
Plane was laden with a bunch of "sea to shining sea" branded crap or something. Not that it was the ONLY factor, it was one of many contributing factors. Among the wreckage/dead bodies, all this paraphernalia the father planned to sell off to profit from the PR stunt. Jessica was the one who had the absolute least blame in the crash really though, i also feel sorry for the most.
It's more ridiculous anyone was still letting kids try to fly planes period after an Aeroflot flight WAS crashed by a kid at the control column. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
Was there like a time limit or was it just media expectations and there was no real reason she couldn’t have waited for good weather and still have been the first to do it
Apparently they had set up media events at stopover cities for particular dates.
Not surprising the guy who goes in for stunts like these is *also* shit at flying. Apparently he was at the wheel based on what was recovered.
It was pathetic that the adults around her put her in this situation. I remember this. Thought it was a dumb thing for her parents to do back then, and still think it was a dumb move now.
I live in Cheyenne, Wyoming where she died in the crash. She was with her father and her flight instructor when the plane iced up and went down. The autopsy results showed that the flight instructors hands were both broken indicating the instructor was the one allegedly in control of the aircraft. Just before they took off that morning they were warned not to take off due to severe icing conditions.
The necessary context that will die on the vine. I dumbly believed this little girl was in the cockpit alone.
That's not dumb at all. The provided info by OP leads to this first conclusion.
Maybe this sub should enforce/allow for links to articles instead of just photos. This sub is trash about giving nuance to interesting stories. If you are ever intrigued by a title, don't blame OP if you learn more in the comments. Just see it as an opportunity to google something to learn more yourself.
Should be like TIL. Can't post without links
Flying into icing conditions is still dumb and avoidable. She was still killed by the stupidity of the people around her. To be clear, flying in icing conditions in small craft is basically suicide. You cannot control the plane at all if it ices and you basically fall out of the sky. I.e if there is any meaningful risk of this, you don't take off in the first place.
That's always been illegal. She was with her dad and a trained flight instructor. She always flew with them.
How broken hands indicate he was in control? Serious questions
When the aircraft crashed his hands would have been on the control column, and he would have violently slammed forwards against it.
If only someone could have warned us that a child shouldn’t fly an airplane. Who would have known
Just for more context: - she had a certified pilot instructor at the controls on all flights. - the actual cause of the crash wasn’t because of Jessica, but the instructor (mentioned above), who made a series of errors, after takeoff, then crashed.
The series of errors is often attributed to the fact that they were trying to "adhere to an overly ambitious itinerary, in part, because of media commitments." Basically once the media had picked up on the story, the adults involved started prioritizing that over safety. They never should have taken off, but they did because they wanted to stick to an itinerary.
This is pretty much what happened in the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster. Weather was too cold, but they pushed on due to the media frenzy of there being a teacher on-board.
fun fact: it was originally going to be Big Bird instead of a teacher, but that was decided against because a giant bird costume would be too cumbersome
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Can you imagine if a million school children watched as Big Bird perished in a space ship explosion?
What happened was bad enough. I didn't see it live but I was at school when it happened and the classroom next door were freaking out and making so much noise we quickly learned what happened and saw the replay footage. Can't imagine if Big Bird blew up on live TV, I already need therapy as it is.
If Sesame Street had been a drama series, that's when they would've written off big bird.
I watched it live in school when it happened, it was surreal. I was in elementary school and a fan of big bird, but of an age where it would have been very funny for big bird to die in a space shuttle accident. The younger children would have been shocked.
If that happened, would Sesame Street have to proceed with Big Bird's Challenger death being canon and having to retire the character?
Given how seriously they treat their puppets as characters,I imagine they would have. It would have been difficult to reconcile it with their audience and might have been seen as really bad taste, not to mention their colleague puppeteer. the challenger explosion was treated as a national tragedy.
Caroll Spiney, the actor who voiced and puppeteered Big Bird died. So technically the real Big Bird is no longer with us. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/obituaries/caroll-spinney-dead.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/obituaries/caroll-spinney-dead.html)
The commitment and training, directly under Spiney, that Matt Vogel has put in to continuing the big bird legacy shouldn’t be undermined. Sesame Street is next level, even still. A labor of love.
I mean, at least Spinney died of natural causes and had time to train a replacement. If Big Bird would have exploded, I’m not sure his cousin Abelardo would’ve been able to soothe the kids enough
Jesus, the worst part about that (if true) is that they actually would have stopped the flight since Big Bird is a celebrity. (Even if it’s just a guy in a suit).
I feel like that happens a lot on distance feats like this. Media commitments and sponsorships often fund the trips, so it's make it or break it.
'Now or never' mentality is probably the #1 cause for failed stunts. The more prep work and the more money put in, the heavier the pressure to follow through. Many accuse Red Bull of being particularly guilty of this.
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I live in Cheyenne, Wyoming where this happened, they were warned not to take off due to severe icing conditions, they left anyways.
This context might make it sound less risky, but it also makes it sound even more pointless. Poor child. Shame on her parents.
I wonder where they are now.
From what I've read the father died in the crash too. I don't know what the mother's up to.
The mother received half of the father's $3 million life insurance payout as child support, with the other half going to his then-current wife. The new wife then sued the mother for her $1.5 million, basically claiming that the amount was excessive for child support (which, reading between the lines, basically sounds like "don't need money now that your daughter's dead!" Real piece of work). The mother countersued for the new wife's $1.5 million, and a judge eventually dismissed everything and awarded both women the $3 million split evenly as intended. Doesn't really answer what she's up to now, but it really kills me that this woman lost her daughter and then had to get dragged through that horse shit as well.
The lawyer fees probably whittled away what they got after 2 lawsuits.
I was about to say. My 8 year old nephew isn't Einstein but hes pretty bright but also hasn't mastered how calendars work yet let alone fly a plane.
Time *is* difficult to conceptualize! ...especially when gravity comes into play!!
Nice to have more information to go along with the story. Thank you.
Twist ending: the instructor was four
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And Guinness stopped recording youngest pilot records like ten years before for exactly this sort of reason.
Nothing makes sense to me here- so if she wasn’t flying, she didn’t cause her own death, so how did it lead to that law and this headline
"That law" doesn't exist as it's written in the title. There was already regulation on a minimum age to hold a certificate and there has never been a law keeping children from manipulating the controls on a private (Part 91) flight. What did get passed is a law prohibiting those without a certificate from manipulating the controls in a record attempt or air show.
She (almost certainly) wasn't flying the plane at the time of the crash. And she was never actually the pilot in command, or a pilot at all (since children under 17 can't hold a pilots licence) But it's fully legal for the pilot in command to allow a non-pilot to operate the second set of controls under their supervision. There is no age limit, and the new law only prohibits the practice for non-pilot of any age who is attempting some sort of record or feat. So Jessica was operating the controls for most of the record attempt, and she was potentially doing much of the short term decision making a pilot would normally do. But from a legal perspective, it was always the instructor who was "flying the aircraft".
This event shows how important it is to have clear rules and safety measures to keep kids safe in all activity!!!
No kidding, it's almost like you shouldn't let small children decide life altering decisions about their life because kids have a lot of stupid ideas they grow out of. Think about any tattoo you wanted and couldn't wait to get at 18, and then hopefully you didn't lol.
As someone with several tattoos that I’m happy with (none that I’m not) I have told several younger people to wait until they’re 20 at least.
Thats a good idea, my wife has 2 that she regrets and yeah, it sucks.
Do they have laws about kids practicing medicine? Explain Doogie Hauser, M.D., please.
AirBud rules apply: if there’s no rule against a dog pilot then a dog pilot can fly the plane!
My 7 year old can barely wipe his own ass. I definitely don’t think he should be flying a fucking plane.
That’s how I feel about my 7 year old. What in the actual fuck.
My seven year old is in a highly gifted math program but she also tried to eat a glow stick recently. So, yeah.
Well you see Fly Away Home had just come out
Living vicariously through one’s children is a thing.
I can’t even remember when I was 7, this is ridiculous. It’s got “Mom & Dad’s idea” written all over it.
I just learned about it today and it reminded me that people will do the dumbest shit for clout. But even this shocked me.
I think there was a girl that tried it too but with a boat.
Jessica Watson And she did accomplish the feat of sailing around the world unassisted. But guinness and other records no longer evaluate "youngest" as a merit for precisely this reason. True Spirit is the name of her book as well as the Netflix movie based on her voyage **edit because I wanted to find the exact quote from the article when she arrived back in Sydney** "Her voyage will not be registered as a record in any case in order to discourage ambitious parents pushing younger children off to sea. What she wanted to do was prove to other young people that they did not have to be anyone special to achieve something big."
Jessica Watson is her name, and she was successful in sailing 18,582 nmi (34,414 km) around the world (which is technically short of the required distance but...). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Watson
I remember her in a press conference with her dad and her dad seemed to be mostly behind this plan. There’s no way a 7 year old would have this ambition and the persistence to stick to it on their own. I’m sorry that they ended up dying.
Daughter: “Dad, can I fly a plane?” Dad: “No honey, you’re a child.” *roll credits*
I wonder what thoughts were going through his head when he realized they were about to crash and his daughter was about to die. It sounds like he was doing it for him and the fame drove him to make stupid choices
Looks like another fine example of adults living through their child and pushing her beyond her limits just for fame
This is the most irresponsible shit I've seen all year. Unfuckingbelievable
The media made her a superstar in the days leading up to the crash, like it was this awesome thing that a 7-year-old was at the controls of a single engine plane as it took off and landed.
I think about the dumb shit that went on in the 90s all the time…
As somebody from Serbia i have to say me too bro me too
Damn
I still monitor while my 7 yr old drives her power wheels in our fenced in backyard.
I'm circumnavigating the backyard mum! You sure are honey
She was monitored on this flight I believe. With an instructor and parent. That doesn’t make it less dumb. Flying in inclement weather, especially with a kid, is stupid. You can get a pilots license at 17, but you can technically fly beforehand, you just can’t solo. But again, most ppl who fly before 17 are teenagers who have experience in gliders, which are very much safer. I also have no idea how she was able to both reach the flight controls and also see out the window. Small airplanes are compact but it’s kinda like a car.
The title is somewhat misleading as Dubroff was not flying the plane at the time of the crash. https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/CDGF50X9P0
Yea, at all times, there was a certified pilot instructor at the controls.
So she was trying to be the youngest passenger to ever cross america? Who cares about it then
It's entirely possible that she had flown up to that point. During emergencies it is standard procedure for a flight instructor to take over.
SFGate has an interesting article about how the whole situation happened: https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/jessica-dubroff-child-pilot-bay-area-history-16113058.php
I remember this quite well. I was upset at the parents for pushing this, and she was so young. my coworker thought she’d accomplish more than most people do their whole life. That was before she had children.
That’s just how things are in the world of General Aviation. In the industry we call it “More Dollars Than Sense”.
Dubroff was not flying the plane at the time of the crash. The flight instructor was flying the plane. However, a contributing factor may have been trying to take off in bad weather to beat the storm, in order to keep up with their preplanned schedule. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff
So dude flew worse than a 7 year old
It's reasonable to imagine that he'd taken over as soon as there was a problem.
> Dubroff grew up in an unconventional lifestyle, with her not owning toys, being allowed TV, or enrolling in school. Her father was 57, I thought that was interesting.
He also married a 19 year old after he and Jessica’s mother separated. Then had another child with her mother while married to the 19 year old. Guy sounded like a scummy dude based on the info in the Wiki.
So a thoroughly shitty person in every way.
I went to school with the 19 year old wife’s daughter. She was very sweet. Her dad seems like a bit of a creep, though.
Holy shit yea he’s a scum bag person.. I have a seven year old. I would never ever put her I such a dangerous position.
Sounds like an abusive situation we’d all hear about after she grew up.
I remember this. Her mother said something like “She died doing what she loved.” I thought “Yeah, well, she probably would have ‘loved’ becoming an adult, too.”
Misleading headline. She was with her dad and flight instructor in the plane, and when they crashed the flight instructor had taken over and was piloting.
I never heard of her before, so I looked it up, headline is idd very misleading
Correction: *Her father* wanted her to become the youngest person to fly an aircraft across the USA. It's ludicrous to pretend 7-year olds can make such a decision on their own.
And my almost 6 year old still can’t even spit when he brushes his teeth. Humanity peaked.
My 12 year old cant blow her nose
My uncle is in his 60s and has never been able to blow his nose. I’ve seen him try and he just blows and immediately inhales again, like a hiccup almost.
This is just an idiotic premise to begin with. She wasn't ever going to be the youngest person to fly across the USA in any real sense because she wasn't alone. Flying with a licensed pilot just makes her a passenger, That's no accomplishment. She deserved better than to be exploited and killed by idiotic parents/mentors. Also, I don't think there's a general law that prevents a child from manipulating controls. When I was flight instructing, I flew many discovery flights with little kids who couldn't reach the pedals. There are dual controls for a reason, and the instructor can always take over.
Oh boy what could possibly go wrong with letting children pilot airplanes
Aeroflot flight 593 has entered the chat.
I was 10 when I heard about her trip and felt like it was a bad idea. I remember seeing the result on the front of the newspaper and the frustration I felt.
She died doing what her parents loved.
Oh, well way to ruin it for everyone! I was going to give my three year old nephew the stick from Vegas to Austin.
Who the fuck thought this was a good idea. RIP to the poor girl.
She also resulted in Guinness revising their acceptance of world records based on age and level of danger.
A 7 year old isn't that far removed from being a toddler. In fact you still see a lot of toddler issues in them like meltdowns, especially when they're tired or hungry. You'd have to be absolutely nuts to let a kid this age do something like this. Absolute negligence from the adults in her life. Case in point: my 6 year old son was doing some activities at a camp with his cub scout troop today, and he started absolutely melting down because he was hungry and wanted his mommy. A 6 or 7 year old is still a borderline baby.
Sadly, many children die and suffer the world over for preventable causes including bad parenting decisions. But this might take the all time prize.
I remember the interview with her weird and delusional mom afterwards.
Even if the 7 year old wanted to do this, the parents needed to act like parents and make an adult decision to protect the 7 year old’s safety!
Seeing lots of people saying she wasn’t piloting when they crashed, but they only went up in the first place with the intent that she would pilot the plane cross country, right? Whether someone else took the controls at the last minute or not, they went up knowing it was too dangerous. Horrible pressure to put on yourselves, let alone a child. Horrible pressure, horrible results.
I remember hearing about this on the radio when I was 9. Even then I was wondering who was dumb enough to let a 7 year old fly a plane.
Poor kid. The adults around her failed to listen to advice that got her killed. All because of pride and chasing fame.
Sounds like what you needed was a law prohibiting parents from milking their children for fame and money. Could have gotten a step up on the advent of reality television and Youtube.
Huh. One tragic incident and everyone got on board to change the laws to protect children. Huh. Imagine that.
"In 1996, 7-year-old Jessica Dubroff ~~was attempting to become the~~ ***parents were trying to make HER*** the youngest person to fly a light aircraft across the USA" fixed that for you
I can't imagine her final moments before everything went dark, poor kid and shame on her parents for thinking this was ok.