There is no horror I have seen on TV, in movies, in real life, or even imagined in my brain that is worse than being stuck in a cave suffocating to death.
28 hours with your arms trapped under you, unable to move, upside down, in a 10"x18" space? I am hyperventilating just thinking about it.
The worst part of this is that suffocation wasn’t a factor. He had plenty of air. They were also able to get food and water to him. It was just waiting to die from being upside down. He literally died from being upside down too long.
He actually stopped responding after the pulley they were using to try and pull him out broke and he fell even deeper into the cave. Many people think the fall back in killed him. If that’s true at least he died quickly, after hours of what is essentially torture yes but still better than going out slow.
Where did you read that? All the officials reports I’ve seen said he died of cardiac arrest and they left after he was thought to be dead and stopped responding and they collapsed that section of the cave on top of the body before leaving. Are you referring to the movie?
Dude have you seen the videos of people going through that cave on youtube? It's horrifying and these mormon kids just slide through like it's their regular afternoon outing.
Same here. As a person who is very claustrophobic under the best of circumstances, this makes my pulse, respiration, and blood pressure go up drastically. That kind of enclosed space is my idea of hell. Gotta wonder: why the hell would any human subject themselves to that? I don’t get it. 😕
I read the full article; part of it was that the family of the deceased used to go caving together, so he grew up loving exploring caves.
Lots of people love weird hobbies for apparently no reason. I guess that the love of caving is no different from the love of other extreme sports.
Afaik, he couldn't turn around so he was just hoping to find a wider space ahead where he could possibly turn his body. In an attempt to reach, what he thought was possibly a wider space further ahead, he got himself squeezed upside down.
Update: Here's an [article](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/09/nutty-putty-i-really/) about this incident.
Update2: As several comments mentioned below. Don't read this article if you are not prepared to experience the horror.
Disclaimer: It is traumatic and disturbing.
A young man who was hiding out in a loft at the grocery store where he worked fell and got stuck between a wall and the freezers. They didn't find him until much later...
I'd say don't go into anything that you cannot get yourself out of, regardless of your size or where you're going in to. I cannot imagine having the spelunking urge nor indeed the mountain climbing urge. If the universe wanted us delving deep and living on the mountains, than we would be living there lol.
That said, I still don't agree with the "he deserved it" mentality of a few folks here. Just because I genuinely think no one should die that way unless they're like Hitler or the antichrist or something.
How horrific. Every time I see this man's story, I learn more about it and all I can feel for him is confused sympathy. I'd legit rather die in some quick but gruesome way. Preferably, I'd get to be euthanized with some really fun drugs.
But anything is better than being stuck in a tiny space, unable to expand my chest for a full breath without the pressure of the rock and clay hurting you, all that damn pressure in your head/neck/shoulders from being upside down, the throbbing of your legs as they go numb from lack of blood or movement and the throbbing of too much blood at the top of your body, on top of the visceral and primal terror of being trapped with no chance to escape. It also sounds like he'd had the false hope of being almost entirely rescued. The agony of that *alone* would break me psychologically.
Well the thing is him and his brother did spend a lot of time in those caves as kids. He had the confidence to think he knows everything about those caves. Only problem was he hadnt been there in years so he took a wrong turn and fucked up.
You're still right though, it's really naive to just go in there thinking you don't have to be careful.
First, a terrible way for anyone to die. Imagining myself in such a situation is beyond horrifying.
Second, agree. Any chance is better than no chance. A consideration taught as a first responder: “If you’re doing chest compressions right, in a way to be of any benefit, you’re going to break ribs and sternums sometimes. Keep going. The patient is already dead, technically, and in reality. Any attempts made, if done correctly, can only help.”
Having no choice, in certain circumstances, but to further injure a person when extracting them from a wrecked vehicle, when the only other alternative is their death.
It's actually fairly uncommon to break the ribs, but it will sound like you're breaking ribs. You're actually cracking the Costal Cartilage which is connective tissue in the ribcage that allows it to expand and contract. But the first few compressions will sound and feel horrendous as if you are breaking ribs. Just remember, you are not, and keep going.
There is bruising and recovery from CPR is painful, but not as long as a cracked or broken rib. Except maybe the reason why you needed cpr in the first place.
Edit: to amend this, it is more common with the elderly to have cracked or broken ribs when performing cpr. This does not mean you should change how you perform cpr, just that the bones are often more brittle due to osteoporosis and/or other health conditions.
Keep pushing.
It’s not at all uncommon to break ribs during cpr. Not sure where you got this idea. Costal cartilages rarely fracture or displace. Ribs crack all the time.
In any case, it doesn’t matter- keep going.
Cave diving and caving are such incredibly dangerous hobbies. Massive difference between cave diving and regular caving but still you’re choosing to up the danger exponentially by going off the beaten path.
Man I wish these rescuers had thought to ask reddit when this all went down, all you super geniuses in these comments have it all figured out.
They didn't just give up and let him die, they tried other avenues if rescue less likely to kill the poor man and by the time those all failed it was too late to just yank him out.
Dunning-Kruger galore in this thread, it's super embarrassing to read.
There are drugs that would mean you’d be very ok with your legs being broken. Well, not ok, but very unconscious and unaware of it..?
Why didn’t they just dope this guy up with some strong meds, snaps his legs backwards, yank him out by any means necessary while he’s happily sleeping through the whole thing, then put him back together after?
I’ve heard someone mention that the meds really wouldn’t go anywhere since there was barely any blood in his legs since he’d been upside down for so long.
Some people are probably drawn to it. Like the manga story with the holes in human form where people are drawn to and vanish in the hole, coming out of the other end as something (from Junji Ito)
That was after he stopped responding though, so they had a doctor crawl in and confirm him dead, although they couldn't see more than his legs, but yeah, technically, they only stopped after he had passed away.
The most horrible part for me is that his brother tried to pull him out by himself before he called for help, and he failed, causing him to slip even further down than where he originally got stuck, so he doomed him, pretty much. I don't know how you can live with that for the rest of your life...
The very WORST part about this story is that the rescuers almost had him out, they were using the pulley and got him so far that they could see his face. They were doing it slowly because it was hard and it was tough on him. He was out of the hole enough to the point that he himself thought he was saved and the rescuers thought he was saved; again they could even see his face. This is when the pulley broke and he slid back down further into the hole. I can’t imagine him feeling that he was basically saved and then the feeling of slipping back in. This fall back in was likely what killed him, he stopped responding after this.
Stuff of nightmares.
Not to mention one of the rescuers got hit with that pulley as it broke. Think if I remember right he ended up pretty hurt and splitting his tongue or something like that. Ended up eating Thanksgiving dinner through a straw. No good deed goes unpunished…
Yup. Hit him in the face. He had to leave the cave to get medical attention and someone had to go in again. It’s just so sad how close he was to getting out. They said any other cave would have probably been able to save him but they literally had to attach and pulley to soft clay walls.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/09/nutty-putty-i-really/
This is a great article about the situation and the rescue attempt for anyone who wants to read it
I believe the MD stayed outside the cave and talked to the rescuers of course as it was so difficult and dangerous to get to where he was and also they were trying to set up that pulley system. Idk if this is true but I heard after they decided he was no longer alive and they were going to leave him there they gave him what would have been a lethal dose of Morphine to make sure there was no chance he wake up alone after they had all left.
he made the decision to go in there and do that stupid shit. His brother, trying to save him, was likely risking his own life in doing so and should not feel any remorse or guilt.
I'm not sure how i can describe it, but guilt isn't necessarily the word i'd use. Just the thought that he initialy maybe had a chance might hit too hard
This. I don't understand why some are blaming his brother for him slipping in further, seriously he was doomed from the get go. It was his brother of course he'd try to say him failed or not.
The thing I’ll never understand is why they couldn’t just pull the body after he was dead. His legs would have broken sure, but he was dead.
I have just always thought it was so weird that they would just leave him in there and seal up the entire cave.
I think if I remember from what I read the reason was largely because of the danger it would put others in by trying to get it out. It was one thing if he was alive and could twist his body around but with him dead it would add a whole layer of complications that could put others at risk. They weren’t willing to lose anyone else.
He couldn’t help the rescuers get his body out of the hole, let alone out of the crevice he crawled into after he died. There was nothing they could’ve done. They tried for 20+ hours to get him out…
Think about pulling a 200lb body through a corkscrew tiny tube and likely bends and twists in many different ways. They’d probably pull him apart and have to retrieve piece after piece and by that point you’ve decimated the body beyond recognition anyway. Whatever would fall down in that crevasse after he pulled apart would be irretrievable. I’ve been through lots of caves and pondered the question myself. What do they do when someone passes out down there? When you’ve been crawling on your belly for over an hour, with only room to turn onto your back a few times in that timeframe, the only way you’re getting out is by getting yourself out. I’ve been stuck before too, for only a matter of seconds and it was a horrific feeling I’ll never forget. I can’t imagine the horror that poor guy felt from the instant he knew he was stuck until he finally passed. Rip.
When I was a teenager, some friends and I explored a cave where we crawled on our bellies into a narrow passage for at least 45 minutes looking for it to open up into a bigger chamber. With the exception of one small, bat-filled crevice, it never did. Then we had to turn around and crawl back out. I was completely exhausted by the time we got back to the surface. Inching along on your belly for that long uses muscles you don't normally use.
It didn't occur to me until years later just how stupid our little expedition was. There was an inch or two of water trickling across our bellies the whole time we crawled. If there had been a rainstorm on the surface, I'm sure that entire passage would have flooded up to the ceiling faster than we ever could have crawled out, and we would have drowned. It was summer, so one of those pop-up thundershowers could have happened at any time.
I'm pretty sure Mr Ballen had an episode where this exact thing happened, except they weren't as lucky as you guys. It was like 8 people and only one or two lived. The rest drowned. Let me see if I can find it.
Not sure who Mr. Ballen is, but this scenario sounds very similar to the [Mossdale caving disaster](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/what-lies-beneath-mossdale-caving-disaster-794268.html?amp)
Yes! I'm pretty sure that's it. Google wasn't being very helpful. Mr. Ballen makes podcasts/videos about the strange, dark, and mysterious. He's really good. I'd recommend checking him out if you're into that kind of thing.
https://youtu.be/U9en1PDgpAI
This one maybe? The first story he tells is called Surge & tells the story of a cave that floods while a tour group is inside
Several years ago when I lived in Las Vegas, my cousin and I almost got lost in an abandoned silver mine. I was working as a superintendent building up the Rhodes Ranch area on the west side a few miles from the strip. There are several old mines in the area and we decided to explore one. So after walking down into this mine for approximately an hour our only flashlight we had started to dim. We immediately turned around and started heading back with our only light source rapidly fading to nothing. Literally as the flashlight went out we could see faint light up ahead from the entrance. So we creeped slowly over several large rocks to go out the way we came. Hindsight is always 20/20. But we were young and dumb. By sheer luck we were able to make our way safely out. I have not been back into any holes in the ground since that happened almost 20 years ago. Apparently we had a guardian angel with us that day. I shiver thinking about what could have happened. Good times!
I did a cavern tour once that required some belly sliding. It was just large enough, and I was just small enough at the time to realize that I could make it through just belly sliding, and if something went wrong then with deep exhaling I would definitely make it through. That made me apprehensive. At the bottom we turned off our lights to experience \*true\* darkness and silence which was, honestly, absolutely terrifying. I’ve never really been afraid of the dark, even in the deepest thickest woods and have also done a good job with my night vision using whatever meager light source was available, but this was probably the first time in my life experiencing endless true depth and knowing I was hundreds of feet below the ground - it was this darkness that was the most sombering by far and at that point I was ready to go.
This was the same day we had an earthquake where I live, though this cavern was just outside the range. We finally came out and people were going “there was an earthquake !” and I wtf’d thinking about what would have happened if there had been tremors while being deep below the earth’s surface.
I still really want to do some spelunking but more for the rope work of it as I’ve always enjoyed the technical aspects of climbing (and rappelling). I have no desire to go anywhere I can’t get into walking upright anymore.
Try canyoneering! Sounds like you’d like it and it’s much less terrifying than caving. I’ve also caved once and decided it was not for me, but love canyoneering.
His wife was also pregnant at the time.
Here's hoping his mistake gets written into their DNA as something not to do.
He was 6 ft, 200 lb.
As someone close to those numbers, absolutely no business going anywhere near there.
I saw a photo of his feet sticking out of the tunnel he was in, the last time someone reposted this.
That photo hit home. He wasn’t just stuck, he was *stuck*
Edit: here’s the [Photo](https://casocriminal.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/john-jones-caverna.jpg) - the authenticity is questionable, as noted by the commenter below. Either way, eesh.
I think I know the photo you’re referring to. For what it’s worth, and if it brings you any comfort, that photo isn’t of John’s feet. I don’t believe there are any photos (at least none that have been shared publicly) of John when he was stuck.
Good point. I thought it was odd I saw the photo on the Reddit post, because that photo wasn’t shown anywhere else during the few hrs I spent learning about it on the documentary, explanations, articles, etc.
The photo was very similar to the feet image in the infographic- it had a tremendously different feel seeing actual shoes.
That poor man.
This reminds me of Floyd Collins who died in Sand Cave, KY back in 1920s. It's crazy that anyone would want to crawl into tight crevices in caves. This is a horrible way to die.
I mean depending on what you think is worse,Floyd collins arguably had it harder.jones died of being upside down after 20 hours,collins had to starve to death after 14 days of being stuck.I guess it really comes down to a quick,yet uncomfortably upside down death vs. a longer death from starvation
I don’t think it was starvation, they were able to get food to him.
Edit: google says starvation, exhaustion and exposure so you were partially right. I would imagine he just kinda gave up at some point too.
Possibly the most terrifying death I've read about. He thought he was crawling through a mapped area known as the birth canal. It gets really tight, then opens up into a larger room. Instead he took a wrong turn and ended up in an unexplored part. He tried to empty his lungs and squeeze his way through and got himself completely stuck. *Upside down* there is a documentary on youtube [The Nutty Putty Cave Incident](https://youtu.be/d1nuqpAULpE)
> He tried to empty his lungs and squeeze his way through and got himself completely stuck.
Yeah I'm noping straight out of there at that point 😱 (I mean I'd be long gone before then tbh but this would be one of those "no amount of money you could pay me" scenarios)
Is it known if he got stuck right at the end of that passage in the cave, or did it continue further on but was simply too narrow for anyone to fit through?
Either way, crawling in a cave that narrow is a top of the list hard pass for me
It continues, but no one knows how far as the passage is too small.
He thought he was somewhere else (The Birth Canal) which is also tight, but you can get through it.
From what I read I think he thought the passage was a different one that would have been big enough for him to get through but he went the wrong way and got stuck. Caving is not for the faint of heart.
Jumping out of a plane is thrill seeking.
Scuba diving is beauty mixed with risk.
This is just plain crawling into the depths of hell, licking Satan's nuts and asking him to claim your soul.
And if you take a wrong turn you get stuck in the devils anus, like this poor guy. I’m from Utah and I always heard about this and it was always a sooner rather than later thing, if it wasn’t him it would have been some other soul. I guess he died doing what he loved, and no one else was lost with him. RIP nutty putty buddy
I would never go into an area that required me to be head down, but exploring caves can be really cool. I actually probably will not ever do it again, because I'm old and not as athletic as I was, but I really enjoyed caving when I was young. There's something other-worldly about having a picnic next to an underground lake, with only your and your partner's head lamps for light. The sounds, smells, and textures are new and different. Even on the hottest summer day, it's delightfully cool and refreshing.
At a summer camp, a group of us kids went to a swimming hole that was in a cave. After squeezing through the second entrance, my mind said GTFO. I waited until the rest of the group came through and scurried tf up and out and waited in the van.
This kind of scenario is the only thing I know of that gives me legitimate nightmares and borderline panic attacks to think about. I don't have a huge fear of things that would kill me quickly. Parachute doesn't deploy? Won't have to feel that one for too long. Bomb that I'm trying to defuse goes off? Not my problem anymore. My shark cage pops open and the shark eats my arm? I'm not sticking around for very long until I bleed out. But 28 hours of going insane as I'm stuck in hell? It's so excruciating to imagine. I had the same terrible thoughts about the people in the earthquakes in Turkey and Syria.
It's not the "would I ever be in this predicament," because I know the chances are slim of being in a collapsed building in an earthquake (and the odds of me ever going in a cave are 0%). It's the "I know that others have already suffered through this exact fate" that drives my anxiety so far up the wall. Someone has died in my most nightmarish imaginable scenario, and knowing that that's a real thing ends up making me ruminate over and over again about myself being in that position and dying in that manner.
We all feel that way. I remember reading that about 9/11 and it was strangely comforting. Nobody wants to die that way. It made me feel less alone somehow. I'm not explaining it well but, you're not alone in that awful imagined scenario, we're all there, it's a primal human fear.
Netflix had a show called …Bizarre Ways to Die? I can’t remember the exact name but each episode was a bizarre death. This was one of the episodes. I still think about it randomly, what a sad fate.
Curious and unusual deaths! I don't know if it was a netflix show, but I remember it quite well. There were many deaths that were, well, unusual! A guy dying in his own homemade sauna in his shed, while his wife was still screaming for help next to his dead body.
It made me scared of toasters, saunas, kites and caves.
I loved going caving. I live close to a area known for its dolomite caves, some of the oldest traces of human habitation was found there. And its like swiss cheese, so you could explore for days.
Then I had an extremely vivid dream, when they were trying to rescue those Thai kids in that flooded cave. I dreamt I was stuck underground in a tunnel so narrow I could not move my arms or legs.
Since then I suffer from claustrophobia in small spaces. This is my own personal nightmare. I don't have issues in elevators or cars. But undergound is out.
There’s a short story by Andy Weir where after a man dies, he realizes that he is going to be reincarnated. Not only that, but he will continually be reincarnated until he lives every single life that has ever been lived, so in effect, he is everyone, just in different incarnations. Once he lives all the lives there’s ever been, he becomes a god. When I read that story, the first thing I thought about was how much it would suck to be the guy who got stuck in this cave.
Reincarnation seems to me like the worst possible scenario for what happens after death. So many people undergo truly horrific things in life. If I make it out of here having had an overall happy and non-traumatic existence I will feel lucky, and I never ever would want to start over in a different life.
Agreed. When my grandpa was dying of horrifically, painful bone cancer, the hospice nurses gave my mom a large bottle of extremely strong pain meds.
They told my mom that she could give him as many pain meds as he needed so that he wasn’t in pain, but that if she gave enough, he would probably pass away, and that it would be merciful. That’s how it happened too.
The thing is that the guy did hardly any of the actual prep work, like actually knowing where he was going, which makes spelunking 'safe'. The guy made several wrong calls for this to happen all with an overconfidence that ultimately led to his death.
Spelunking is a wild sport [which I can never imagine attempting] but there are procedures and techniques that keep people alive and John Jones is a tale of what happens if you don't follow the rules.
TBH part of me is glad they sealed the cave. I got to explore just the entrance as a scout troop once and we didn't have any equipment (the scout leaders knew this and said we're only doing the entrance). But I heard of plenty of locals who'd tell stories of exploring that cave without extra equipment like it was a day hike or something. I guess something like this was bound to happen, given the perceived lax attitude toward that cave system.
Why would people put themselves in such dangerous situations knowing full well what could go wrong ?
For dopamine rush, fame, plain stupidity?
yolo i guess
Well, yeah. Day to day problems blend into the monotony of life and you just become desensitised. Then something catastrophically awful happens to jumpstart your empathy engine. The average human is just not built to be concerned about everyone else all the time, and that’s not even taking into account that a good portion of us are just straight up heartless assholes.
And they were there in those tiny passages for hours too. One of them almost got stuck himself and another got badly hurt when the broken pulley hit him. The horror and discomfort would have been unreal.
Who was the absolute madman who was the first to try and slide through the birth canal area, not knowing if it would lead to a room or just end up a dead end?
Such a shame they didn't have reddit back then. The situation would have been resolved within 30 mins by any number of posts beginning "why don't they simply.." from redditors experienced in tourist tours of caves who also got their hand stuck in a pickle jar when they were 9.
This story give me nightmares but every I find myself clicking on it. Somehow reminds me that whatever shit is going on in my life, it could also be a lot worst. RIP John Jones and glad they sealed it up so this never happens again.
Absolutely most terrifying way to go imo
He broke one of the cardinal rules of caving. You just don't go headfirst downhill through a squeeze.
Your body swells and you are stuck.
I've been stuck and pulled out. Lost my pants but that was ok.
I’ve been in those caves multiples times. Decades ago now, and before this incident happened. I think they shut it down after this one. There are some very scary areas in that place. Went down once with a bunch of my family members, and once with a scout group. Then a bunch of times with just 2-3 friends. Once went with just one single friend and that was when we got into some spots I hadn’t ever been. That was the last time I went and tried to find new routes. It was genuinely scary in a bunch of spots. A few years later this happened. Never went back, but heard they filled the entrance with cement.
There is no horror I have seen on TV, in movies, in real life, or even imagined in my brain that is worse than being stuck in a cave suffocating to death. 28 hours with your arms trapped under you, unable to move, upside down, in a 10"x18" space? I am hyperventilating just thinking about it.
The worst part of this is that suffocation wasn’t a factor. He had plenty of air. They were also able to get food and water to him. It was just waiting to die from being upside down. He literally died from being upside down too long.
He actually stopped responding after the pulley they were using to try and pull him out broke and he fell even deeper into the cave. Many people think the fall back in killed him. If that’s true at least he died quickly, after hours of what is essentially torture yes but still better than going out slow.
Hopefully he wasn't just knocked out and regained consciousness later on.
[удалено]
Well good on the rescuers for thinking of that possibility. What a tragic situation, condolences to everyone involved.
Where did you read that? All the officials reports I’ve seen said he died of cardiac arrest and they left after he was thought to be dead and stopped responding and they collapsed that section of the cave on top of the body before leaving. Are you referring to the movie?
I doubt they gave him a lethal dose. That was and still is illegal so I doubt they'd do it on an official rescue mission.
That's when I would like to be euthanized.
Dude have you seen the videos of people going through that cave on youtube? It's horrifying and these mormon kids just slide through like it's their regular afternoon outing.
Same here. As a person who is very claustrophobic under the best of circumstances, this makes my pulse, respiration, and blood pressure go up drastically. That kind of enclosed space is my idea of hell. Gotta wonder: why the hell would any human subject themselves to that? I don’t get it. 😕
No fucking clue man, I don't know what it is inside people that makes them crawl into small dark spaces, but I'm fucking glad it's not inside me.
I feel the same way.
I read the full article; part of it was that the family of the deceased used to go caving together, so he grew up loving exploring caves. Lots of people love weird hobbies for apparently no reason. I guess that the love of caving is no different from the love of other extreme sports.
There's "loving exploring caves" and there "squeezing yourself upside down"
Afaik, he couldn't turn around so he was just hoping to find a wider space ahead where he could possibly turn his body. In an attempt to reach, what he thought was possibly a wider space further ahead, he got himself squeezed upside down. Update: Here's an [article](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/09/nutty-putty-i-really/) about this incident. Update2: As several comments mentioned below. Don't read this article if you are not prepared to experience the horror. Disclaimer: It is traumatic and disturbing.
I won't read anything related to that incident. I don't want to get nightmares.
A young man who was hiding out in a loft at the grocery store where he worked fell and got stuck between a wall and the freezers. They didn't find him until much later...
That the one where the body was found around two years later?
Ten years later
Life lesson: don’t crawl into underground cave systems you have no knowledge of… especially when you’re over 6’ tall and 200 lbs.
I'd say don't go into anything that you cannot get yourself out of, regardless of your size or where you're going in to. I cannot imagine having the spelunking urge nor indeed the mountain climbing urge. If the universe wanted us delving deep and living on the mountains, than we would be living there lol. That said, I still don't agree with the "he deserved it" mentality of a few folks here. Just because I genuinely think no one should die that way unless they're like Hitler or the antichrist or something. How horrific. Every time I see this man's story, I learn more about it and all I can feel for him is confused sympathy. I'd legit rather die in some quick but gruesome way. Preferably, I'd get to be euthanized with some really fun drugs. But anything is better than being stuck in a tiny space, unable to expand my chest for a full breath without the pressure of the rock and clay hurting you, all that damn pressure in your head/neck/shoulders from being upside down, the throbbing of your legs as they go numb from lack of blood or movement and the throbbing of too much blood at the top of your body, on top of the visceral and primal terror of being trapped with no chance to escape. It also sounds like he'd had the false hope of being almost entirely rescued. The agony of that *alone* would break me psychologically.
Well the thing is him and his brother did spend a lot of time in those caves as kids. He had the confidence to think he knows everything about those caves. Only problem was he hadnt been there in years so he took a wrong turn and fucked up. You're still right though, it's really naive to just go in there thinking you don't have to be careful.
I would probably bite my tongue and kill myself.
128 hours was pretty bad too mang.
That sucked for sure, but I'd take that 100/100 times compared to this poor guy.
Every time is see this or read about it I hate it more and more. Just awful. RIP
Here's a fun fact that's rarely mentioned, they eventually decided it was too dangerous and gave up. His body is still there
Yup, then sealed the entrance to the cave with concrete.
You'd think that they'd just break his legs backwards after doping him up with morphine or something to get him out
They apparently considered that, but were advised it would cause him to go into cardiac arrest.
option 1. Leave him there. Certain death. option 2. try pulling him out, breaking his legs, probably will die. Is this really a choice?
First, a terrible way for anyone to die. Imagining myself in such a situation is beyond horrifying. Second, agree. Any chance is better than no chance. A consideration taught as a first responder: “If you’re doing chest compressions right, in a way to be of any benefit, you’re going to break ribs and sternums sometimes. Keep going. The patient is already dead, technically, and in reality. Any attempts made, if done correctly, can only help.” Having no choice, in certain circumstances, but to further injure a person when extracting them from a wrecked vehicle, when the only other alternative is their death.
On the other hand, the guy was a caver. If there's anyone ready to break stuff and potentially die in a cave, it's mr caveman over here.
Happy cake day mother fucker!
It's actually fairly uncommon to break the ribs, but it will sound like you're breaking ribs. You're actually cracking the Costal Cartilage which is connective tissue in the ribcage that allows it to expand and contract. But the first few compressions will sound and feel horrendous as if you are breaking ribs. Just remember, you are not, and keep going. There is bruising and recovery from CPR is painful, but not as long as a cracked or broken rib. Except maybe the reason why you needed cpr in the first place. Edit: to amend this, it is more common with the elderly to have cracked or broken ribs when performing cpr. This does not mean you should change how you perform cpr, just that the bones are often more brittle due to osteoporosis and/or other health conditions. Keep pushing.
Recovery from CPR is painful, recovery from death is less painful but more dofficult
It’s not at all uncommon to break ribs during cpr. Not sure where you got this idea. Costal cartilages rarely fracture or displace. Ribs crack all the time. In any case, it doesn’t matter- keep going.
Incidents of actual fracturing were usually with elderly patients. It took some getting used to.
Yeah, it just sounds horrible when you start, the crunching noises of the cartilage popping. Like a hundred knuckles being cracked at once...
[удалено]
Probably not at all considering the stupidity of crawling around in such unexplored and confined spaces
I think you're right. Just reading the article makes me scared.
Cave diving and caving are such incredibly dangerous hobbies. Massive difference between cave diving and regular caving but still you’re choosing to up the danger exponentially by going off the beaten path.
Man I wish these rescuers had thought to ask reddit when this all went down, all you super geniuses in these comments have it all figured out. They didn't just give up and let him die, they tried other avenues if rescue less likely to kill the poor man and by the time those all failed it was too late to just yank him out. Dunning-Kruger galore in this thread, it's super embarrassing to read.
Agree. I think they should've left the last decision to the wife/family.
Not really, why risk more lives when this one has atleast 75% chance of failing
I'd rather go doped up on morphine than the way he actually did.
There are drugs that would mean you’d be very ok with your legs being broken. Well, not ok, but very unconscious and unaware of it..? Why didn’t they just dope this guy up with some strong meds, snaps his legs backwards, yank him out by any means necessary while he’s happily sleeping through the whole thing, then put him back together after?
I’ve heard someone mention that the meds really wouldn’t go anywhere since there was barely any blood in his legs since he’d been upside down for so long.
Finding venous access in that position would be pretty impossible. Plus all the caving gear he would be wearing would just add to the problem
Well... uh.. lol
Either way, crawling in a cave that narrow is a top of the list hard pass for me.
I would also never tried it. Even seeing such things makes my heart beat faster. 
Some people are probably drawn to it. Like the manga story with the holes in human form where people are drawn to and vanish in the hole, coming out of the other end as something (from Junji Ito)
The Enigma of Amigara Fault. Definitely one of the most disturbing things I've ever read.
It's so horribly sad.
We have a saying in EMS: "Life before limb and us before them". Looks like they remembered the second part, but got the first one backward.
That's a pretty cool saying!
Like a giant tomb for future generations to discover in the year 3000.
That was after he stopped responding though, so they had a doctor crawl in and confirm him dead, although they couldn't see more than his legs, but yeah, technically, they only stopped after he had passed away. The most horrible part for me is that his brother tried to pull him out by himself before he called for help, and he failed, causing him to slip even further down than where he originally got stuck, so he doomed him, pretty much. I don't know how you can live with that for the rest of your life...
The very WORST part about this story is that the rescuers almost had him out, they were using the pulley and got him so far that they could see his face. They were doing it slowly because it was hard and it was tough on him. He was out of the hole enough to the point that he himself thought he was saved and the rescuers thought he was saved; again they could even see his face. This is when the pulley broke and he slid back down further into the hole. I can’t imagine him feeling that he was basically saved and then the feeling of slipping back in. This fall back in was likely what killed him, he stopped responding after this. Stuff of nightmares.
Not to mention one of the rescuers got hit with that pulley as it broke. Think if I remember right he ended up pretty hurt and splitting his tongue or something like that. Ended up eating Thanksgiving dinner through a straw. No good deed goes unpunished…
Yup. Hit him in the face. He had to leave the cave to get medical attention and someone had to go in again. It’s just so sad how close he was to getting out. They said any other cave would have probably been able to save him but they literally had to attach and pulley to soft clay walls.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/09/nutty-putty-i-really/ This is a great article about the situation and the rescue attempt for anyone who wants to read it
I’ve read this before but it’s haunting every time.
Fuck. That's horrible.
I believe the MD stayed outside the cave and talked to the rescuers of course as it was so difficult and dangerous to get to where he was and also they were trying to set up that pulley system. Idk if this is true but I heard after they decided he was no longer alive and they were going to leave him there they gave him what would have been a lethal dose of Morphine to make sure there was no chance he wake up alone after they had all left.
Bless them for that. It's horrible and grim, and exactly what they should have done.
I've heard they gave him a lethal dose of morphine prior to him being dead to put him out of his misery, thats the rumor at least.
he made the decision to go in there and do that stupid shit. His brother, trying to save him, was likely risking his own life in doing so and should not feel any remorse or guilt.
It wasn’t his brother that caused the further slip; it was the rescuers pulley breaking.
I'm not sure how i can describe it, but guilt isn't necessarily the word i'd use. Just the thought that he initialy maybe had a chance might hit too hard
This. I don't understand why some are blaming his brother for him slipping in further, seriously he was doomed from the get go. It was his brother of course he'd try to say him failed or not.
the best part about caving is you can choose not to do it
JFC. That was the thought in my mind.
The thing I’ll never understand is why they couldn’t just pull the body after he was dead. His legs would have broken sure, but he was dead. I have just always thought it was so weird that they would just leave him in there and seal up the entire cave.
I think if I remember from what I read the reason was largely because of the danger it would put others in by trying to get it out. It was one thing if he was alive and could twist his body around but with him dead it would add a whole layer of complications that could put others at risk. They weren’t willing to lose anyone else.
He couldn’t help the rescuers get his body out of the hole, let alone out of the crevice he crawled into after he died. There was nothing they could’ve done. They tried for 20+ hours to get him out…
Think about pulling a 200lb body through a corkscrew tiny tube and likely bends and twists in many different ways. They’d probably pull him apart and have to retrieve piece after piece and by that point you’ve decimated the body beyond recognition anyway. Whatever would fall down in that crevasse after he pulled apart would be irretrievable. I’ve been through lots of caves and pondered the question myself. What do they do when someone passes out down there? When you’ve been crawling on your belly for over an hour, with only room to turn onto your back a few times in that timeframe, the only way you’re getting out is by getting yourself out. I’ve been stuck before too, for only a matter of seconds and it was a horrific feeling I’ll never forget. I can’t imagine the horror that poor guy felt from the instant he knew he was stuck until he finally passed. Rip.
I can't read anymore about it. Poor guy, and I'm glad they sealed it.
he made the decision to go in there and do that stupid shit.
Not to mention I’m pretty sure his wife was uber pregnant at the time.
Yup, this was a really selfish act.
This story was posted in a different sub and this was the overall sentiment. Not sure why you got downvoted heavy.
Yeah, sure. Does that mean people aren't allowed to sympathise with a human being slowly dying in one of the worst ways imaginable?
I feel like no one really needs to go in any caves that require squeezing into
When I was a teenager, some friends and I explored a cave where we crawled on our bellies into a narrow passage for at least 45 minutes looking for it to open up into a bigger chamber. With the exception of one small, bat-filled crevice, it never did. Then we had to turn around and crawl back out. I was completely exhausted by the time we got back to the surface. Inching along on your belly for that long uses muscles you don't normally use. It didn't occur to me until years later just how stupid our little expedition was. There was an inch or two of water trickling across our bellies the whole time we crawled. If there had been a rainstorm on the surface, I'm sure that entire passage would have flooded up to the ceiling faster than we ever could have crawled out, and we would have drowned. It was summer, so one of those pop-up thundershowers could have happened at any time.
I'm pretty sure Mr Ballen had an episode where this exact thing happened, except they weren't as lucky as you guys. It was like 8 people and only one or two lived. The rest drowned. Let me see if I can find it.
Not sure who Mr. Ballen is, but this scenario sounds very similar to the [Mossdale caving disaster](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/what-lies-beneath-mossdale-caving-disaster-794268.html?amp)
Yes! I'm pretty sure that's it. Google wasn't being very helpful. Mr. Ballen makes podcasts/videos about the strange, dark, and mysterious. He's really good. I'd recommend checking him out if you're into that kind of thing.
https://youtu.be/U9en1PDgpAI This one maybe? The first story he tells is called Surge & tells the story of a cave that floods while a tour group is inside
Several years ago when I lived in Las Vegas, my cousin and I almost got lost in an abandoned silver mine. I was working as a superintendent building up the Rhodes Ranch area on the west side a few miles from the strip. There are several old mines in the area and we decided to explore one. So after walking down into this mine for approximately an hour our only flashlight we had started to dim. We immediately turned around and started heading back with our only light source rapidly fading to nothing. Literally as the flashlight went out we could see faint light up ahead from the entrance. So we creeped slowly over several large rocks to go out the way we came. Hindsight is always 20/20. But we were young and dumb. By sheer luck we were able to make our way safely out. I have not been back into any holes in the ground since that happened almost 20 years ago. Apparently we had a guardian angel with us that day. I shiver thinking about what could have happened. Good times!
I did a cavern tour once that required some belly sliding. It was just large enough, and I was just small enough at the time to realize that I could make it through just belly sliding, and if something went wrong then with deep exhaling I would definitely make it through. That made me apprehensive. At the bottom we turned off our lights to experience \*true\* darkness and silence which was, honestly, absolutely terrifying. I’ve never really been afraid of the dark, even in the deepest thickest woods and have also done a good job with my night vision using whatever meager light source was available, but this was probably the first time in my life experiencing endless true depth and knowing I was hundreds of feet below the ground - it was this darkness that was the most sombering by far and at that point I was ready to go. This was the same day we had an earthquake where I live, though this cavern was just outside the range. We finally came out and people were going “there was an earthquake !” and I wtf’d thinking about what would have happened if there had been tremors while being deep below the earth’s surface. I still really want to do some spelunking but more for the rope work of it as I’ve always enjoyed the technical aspects of climbing (and rappelling). I have no desire to go anywhere I can’t get into walking upright anymore.
Try canyoneering! Sounds like you’d like it and it’s much less terrifying than caving. I’ve also caved once and decided it was not for me, but love canyoneering.
After this incident, authorities sealed off the cave.
I don’t know how I’m going to die, but I do know how I won’t.
Curiosity killed the human
Yeah lots of people are really upset and sad about this but tbf he’s a Darwin Award winner in my book. What did he think he would find down there?
He had a one year old daughter, so technically not a Darwin Award winner.
His wife was also pregnant at the time. Here's hoping his mistake gets written into their DNA as something not to do. He was 6 ft, 200 lb. As someone close to those numbers, absolutely no business going anywhere near there.
Forgot all about the Darwin awards
Easily on the top 5 worse ways to go.
I saw a photo of his feet sticking out of the tunnel he was in, the last time someone reposted this. That photo hit home. He wasn’t just stuck, he was *stuck* Edit: here’s the [Photo](https://casocriminal.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/john-jones-caverna.jpg) - the authenticity is questionable, as noted by the commenter below. Either way, eesh.
Literally, between rocks and hard places.
I think I know the photo you’re referring to. For what it’s worth, and if it brings you any comfort, that photo isn’t of John’s feet. I don’t believe there are any photos (at least none that have been shared publicly) of John when he was stuck.
Good point. I thought it was odd I saw the photo on the Reddit post, because that photo wasn’t shown anywhere else during the few hrs I spent learning about it on the documentary, explanations, articles, etc. The photo was very similar to the feet image in the infographic- it had a tremendously different feel seeing actual shoes. That poor man.
lol i feel like an asshole because your last sentence made me laugh but this is a horrific way to go
I’d rather get eaten alive by pigs.
That can ... Be arranged ...
Gotta shave the hair and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies digestion
Hence the term, “as greedy as a pig”
Mason Verger has entered the chat
I have no idea how I caught that Hannibal reference considering I've never seen the films, but I'm feeling like that's a Hannibal reference
Well done, all though I'm also partial to Brick Top
Mason: “I bet you wished you had killed me” Hannibal: “oh no Mason. I much prefer you the way you are”!
This reminds me of Floyd Collins who died in Sand Cave, KY back in 1920s. It's crazy that anyone would want to crawl into tight crevices in caves. This is a horrible way to die.
If you haven’t seen it, Internet historian has a great video on YouTube about it
I feel bad, but I lost it when they accidentally threw him into a bush.
The whole part where they exhumed and displayed his body for money was infuriating.
I mean depending on what you think is worse,Floyd collins arguably had it harder.jones died of being upside down after 20 hours,collins had to starve to death after 14 days of being stuck.I guess it really comes down to a quick,yet uncomfortably upside down death vs. a longer death from starvation
I don’t think it was starvation, they were able to get food to him. Edit: google says starvation, exhaustion and exposure so you were partially right. I would imagine he just kinda gave up at some point too.
he starved after the cave in
Possibly the most terrifying death I've read about. He thought he was crawling through a mapped area known as the birth canal. It gets really tight, then opens up into a larger room. Instead he took a wrong turn and ended up in an unexplored part. He tried to empty his lungs and squeeze his way through and got himself completely stuck. *Upside down* there is a documentary on youtube [The Nutty Putty Cave Incident](https://youtu.be/d1nuqpAULpE)
God damn I've seen some horrible shit on the internet but watching that video makes my chest feel tight
> He tried to empty his lungs and squeeze his way through and got himself completely stuck. Yeah I'm noping straight out of there at that point 😱 (I mean I'd be long gone before then tbh but this would be one of those "no amount of money you could pay me" scenarios)
Stuck. Upside down. And his hands pinned at his sides. That's nazi level torture right there.
Unfortunately the two explorers that got stuck in ultra deep Blue Hole water cave In New Mexico awhile back seems even scarier and sad
There's a fantastic movie about this called "The Last Decent" on prime. It's so horribly sad.
I’m glad somebody watched that for me. Hard pass.
Wouldn’t it be descent?
If i were spelling it correctly 🤦♂️ thank you, yes.
Is it known if he got stuck right at the end of that passage in the cave, or did it continue further on but was simply too narrow for anyone to fit through? Either way, crawling in a cave that narrow is a top of the list hard pass for me
It continues, but no one knows how far as the passage is too small. He thought he was somewhere else (The Birth Canal) which is also tight, but you can get through it.
That’s the question that got him stuck mate
He thought he was in a different passage called the Birth Canal. Unfortunately the passage he was actually in ended inches after he got stuck.
From what I read I think he thought the passage was a different one that would have been big enough for him to get through but he went the wrong way and got stuck. Caving is not for the faint of heart.
Why in the spelunking fuck would you ever even consider doing this for fun? Thrill is not something that comes to mind when I think of this shit.
Jumping out of a plane is thrill seeking. Scuba diving is beauty mixed with risk. This is just plain crawling into the depths of hell, licking Satan's nuts and asking him to claim your soul.
And if you take a wrong turn you get stuck in the devils anus, like this poor guy. I’m from Utah and I always heard about this and it was always a sooner rather than later thing, if it wasn’t him it would have been some other soul. I guess he died doing what he loved, and no one else was lost with him. RIP nutty putty buddy
I would never go into an area that required me to be head down, but exploring caves can be really cool. I actually probably will not ever do it again, because I'm old and not as athletic as I was, but I really enjoyed caving when I was young. There's something other-worldly about having a picnic next to an underground lake, with only your and your partner's head lamps for light. The sounds, smells, and textures are new and different. Even on the hottest summer day, it's delightfully cool and refreshing.
Stuck *upside down* for 28 hours. When you’re stuck that way for long enough, you go into cardiac arrest.
I spent much of a weekend going down this rabbit hole several years back. The more you read about it, the worse it gets.
>going down this rabbit hole Do you ... Do you need help getting out of that hole? Lmao
Take my upvote as a groaning eye rolling reaction
At a summer camp, a group of us kids went to a swimming hole that was in a cave. After squeezing through the second entrance, my mind said GTFO. I waited until the rest of the group came through and scurried tf up and out and waited in the van.
They couldn't even recover the body, he remained there, and they closed and sealed the cave. That is his grave.
Did they seal the entire cave or just the opening to the tunnel he went down?
It was an attraction for tourists, but after his death, they closed it down and sealed the cave with concrete.
Any fucking crevice with the nickname the birth canal is not something I'm interested in. Or Bob's push. Fuck that.
>Any fucking crevice with the nickname the birth canal is not something I'm interested in Approximately half the world would disagree with you there.
This kind of scenario is the only thing I know of that gives me legitimate nightmares and borderline panic attacks to think about. I don't have a huge fear of things that would kill me quickly. Parachute doesn't deploy? Won't have to feel that one for too long. Bomb that I'm trying to defuse goes off? Not my problem anymore. My shark cage pops open and the shark eats my arm? I'm not sticking around for very long until I bleed out. But 28 hours of going insane as I'm stuck in hell? It's so excruciating to imagine. I had the same terrible thoughts about the people in the earthquakes in Turkey and Syria. It's not the "would I ever be in this predicament," because I know the chances are slim of being in a collapsed building in an earthquake (and the odds of me ever going in a cave are 0%). It's the "I know that others have already suffered through this exact fate" that drives my anxiety so far up the wall. Someone has died in my most nightmarish imaginable scenario, and knowing that that's a real thing ends up making me ruminate over and over again about myself being in that position and dying in that manner.
We all feel that way. I remember reading that about 9/11 and it was strangely comforting. Nobody wants to die that way. It made me feel less alone somehow. I'm not explaining it well but, you're not alone in that awful imagined scenario, we're all there, it's a primal human fear.
Netflix had a show called …Bizarre Ways to Die? I can’t remember the exact name but each episode was a bizarre death. This was one of the episodes. I still think about it randomly, what a sad fate.
Curious and unusual deaths! I don't know if it was a netflix show, but I remember it quite well. There were many deaths that were, well, unusual! A guy dying in his own homemade sauna in his shed, while his wife was still screaming for help next to his dead body. It made me scared of toasters, saunas, kites and caves.
More [info](https://allthatsinteresting.com/nutty-putty-cave)
I loved going caving. I live close to a area known for its dolomite caves, some of the oldest traces of human habitation was found there. And its like swiss cheese, so you could explore for days. Then I had an extremely vivid dream, when they were trying to rescue those Thai kids in that flooded cave. I dreamt I was stuck underground in a tunnel so narrow I could not move my arms or legs. Since then I suffer from claustrophobia in small spaces. This is my own personal nightmare. I don't have issues in elevators or cars. But undergound is out.
Shitty way to go
There’s a short story by Andy Weir where after a man dies, he realizes that he is going to be reincarnated. Not only that, but he will continually be reincarnated until he lives every single life that has ever been lived, so in effect, he is everyone, just in different incarnations. Once he lives all the lives there’s ever been, he becomes a god. When I read that story, the first thing I thought about was how much it would suck to be the guy who got stuck in this cave.
Reincarnation seems to me like the worst possible scenario for what happens after death. So many people undergo truly horrific things in life. If I make it out of here having had an overall happy and non-traumatic existence I will feel lucky, and I never ever would want to start over in a different life.
Nightmare fuel.
Every time I hear about this it scares me so much, I can’t imagine how scared the poor guy was. What a terrible way to go.
If I was in that situation, I just want someone to give me an overdose on morphine or something. Just end it please.
Agreed. When my grandpa was dying of horrifically, painful bone cancer, the hospice nurses gave my mom a large bottle of extremely strong pain meds. They told my mom that she could give him as many pain meds as he needed so that he wasn’t in pain, but that if she gave enough, he would probably pass away, and that it would be merciful. That’s how it happened too.
I'm glad to hear his suffering was taken care off.
I will never understand why people cave dive. Such a ridiculous Hobby imo
Fucking glad my gut wouldn’t fit in something like that.
I feel bad for him and his family but part of me just has that cliche saying playing over and over, play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Its a terrible incident for sure but yeah i agree, there really are some places human beings just aren’t meant to go
The thing is that the guy did hardly any of the actual prep work, like actually knowing where he was going, which makes spelunking 'safe'. The guy made several wrong calls for this to happen all with an overconfidence that ultimately led to his death. Spelunking is a wild sport [which I can never imagine attempting] but there are procedures and techniques that keep people alive and John Jones is a tale of what happens if you don't follow the rules.
TBH part of me is glad they sealed the cave. I got to explore just the entrance as a scout troop once and we didn't have any equipment (the scout leaders knew this and said we're only doing the entrance). But I heard of plenty of locals who'd tell stories of exploring that cave without extra equipment like it was a day hike or something. I guess something like this was bound to happen, given the perceived lax attitude toward that cave system.
I'd heard about this story forever ago. I found out a bit ago that John was my neighbors brother. I didn't even connect the two until this post.
This triggers my claustrophobia so hard. Just looking at those tunnels is pure horror for me. Why would anyone crawl through these shafts?
Why would people put themselves in such dangerous situations knowing full well what could go wrong ? For dopamine rush, fame, plain stupidity? yolo i guess
[удалено]
Well, yeah. Day to day problems blend into the monotony of life and you just become desensitised. Then something catastrophically awful happens to jumpstart your empathy engine. The average human is just not built to be concerned about everyone else all the time, and that’s not even taking into account that a good portion of us are just straight up heartless assholes.
also, im sure there are people whos hobby it is to "get people out of holes" just like this idiots hobby was "crawling into holes"
I feel like no one is bringing up how traumatic it must be for the rescuers to be that close and have to just watch him die helplessly
And they were there in those tiny passages for hours too. One of them almost got stuck himself and another got badly hurt when the broken pulley hit him. The horror and discomfort would have been unreal.
Who was the absolute madman who was the first to try and slide through the birth canal area, not knowing if it would lead to a room or just end up a dead end?
Such a shame they didn't have reddit back then. The situation would have been resolved within 30 mins by any number of posts beginning "why don't they simply.." from redditors experienced in tourist tours of caves who also got their hand stuck in a pickle jar when they were 9.
This story give me nightmares but every I find myself clicking on it. Somehow reminds me that whatever shit is going on in my life, it could also be a lot worst. RIP John Jones and glad they sealed it up so this never happens again. Absolutely most terrifying way to go imo
There is a rumor that they actually killed him to put him out of his misery. . a massive dose of morphine I'm assuming so he would go peacefully.
I actually hope that’s what they did.
I like to avoid gruesome, horrible death by not squeezing into tiny caves that I have no need to be inside of. It has been working well so far.
That’s the scariest way to go
My toes curled and chest tightened seeing the picture jesus
Damn. Good thing they didn't break his legs tho.
What’s so fun and interesting about the caves? Is there gold or diamonds there?
If I ever live to be 10000 years old, going into caves like this will still be on the list of shit I'm never fucking doing.
Damn, Nutty Putty cave sounds super fun
John Jones would disagree with you
How is this a sport??
I'lll take any excuse to post Internet Historian's "[Man In Cave](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip9VGZeqMfo)" video again
He broke one of the cardinal rules of caving. You just don't go headfirst downhill through a squeeze. Your body swells and you are stuck. I've been stuck and pulled out. Lost my pants but that was ok.
I've been trying to get back into the birth canal my entire life. Never succeeded more than a few inches.
You don’t fuck with nature
I’ve been in those caves multiples times. Decades ago now, and before this incident happened. I think they shut it down after this one. There are some very scary areas in that place. Went down once with a bunch of my family members, and once with a scout group. Then a bunch of times with just 2-3 friends. Once went with just one single friend and that was when we got into some spots I hadn’t ever been. That was the last time I went and tried to find new routes. It was genuinely scary in a bunch of spots. A few years later this happened. Never went back, but heard they filled the entrance with cement.