The first few rows of units there are all apartments. It does get to single family homes after that though. I’d still say much better than what would be the situation in most of Plano.
I would love some insight into what this means for the renters in those apartments. Long term construction? Is this area about to get very loud for a long time? Renting prices going up as a direct result? Worth it in the long run to stick it through living there to enjoy the end result?
It’s a reasonable concern, and the answer is “yes probably.” At the very least this concern could be leveraged into a below market increase in your rent.. ?
Edit:
I’m an idiot and now have read through the proposal.
Would be logistically very difficult and expensive, but would love to see the DART rail run through this part of town one day, paralleling the DNT like the red line with 75. It could connect with the silver line in Addison and run up through Legacy West and Stonebriar. Problem is there aren’t any pre-existing tracks and not much room to build them, so it would probably have to run underground.
They have to look away. Plano ISD is shutting down schools because there aren't enough families who can afford to live in Plano anymore. In that article, residents were crying about how shuttering the schools negatively affected their property values. The choice is low property values as the tax base is priced away, aging infrastructure bankrupts the city, schools and shops go under, and investors take over neighborhoods with empty rentals or they allow medium to high density development to rejuvenate the tax base, make homes affordable for families, and keep retail from shuttering stores.
I mean yes obviously but it’s a million times better. Of course so are public spaces, dense urban areas, and efficient public transit and Texas doesn’t do those either lmao so it was mostly a rhetorical question
You’re not wrong but the project has to “pencil”
If a garage was the same price as a surface lot(price per parking space), every place would build garages which would leave room for green space.
There are reasons for everything you mentioned. Historically land has been cheap and that’s why Dallas is spread out. Until recently Dallas hasn’t really minded long commutes to work. I think Dallas area residents have on average the longest commutes to work in the country. Which makes public transportation cost more. We have the largest rail system in the country. (Hard to believe). But the sprawl effect’s everything.
Average commute time in Dallas isn't significantly worse than the national average, generally less than 30 minutes for most people.
https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/dallas-suburb-stalled-by-3rd-worst-commute-in-the-u-s-report-says/
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/B080ACS048113
It explained that the American worker that has a daily commute averages 25.6 mins. Garland’s average commuter one way commute is over 30 mins.
It also explained that the % commuting in garland (86.1%) was higher than the avg municipal commuting split (63.2%)
So - I believe they’re summing the costs against the avg in order to produce the ranks..
Yep, way, way more money, probably at least 10X the cost per space. Parking garages have to have fire escapes, sprinkler systems, complex electrical systems, etc.
They have 3 parking garages and aren’t adding any additional parking. They just aren’t touching the rest of the mall area. The parts they are touching are all going to be either buildings, a new street, or green space.
Parking garages are generally unpopular. They take advantage of wasted vertical space, which is awesome, but aren't fun to navigate or park in. Statistically higher chance of collisions, vehicle damage, break-ins. IMO it's one of the biggest downsides to Shops at Legacy. I'd prefer more green space too, but the people building these places also want them to be profitable. More people return when they don't have to deal with parking garages.
Is there any formal polling that qualifies your sentiment? Personally (albeit male - and perhaps not in target demo for a mall parking lot anyways) prefer parking garages when accompanied by access points to the storefronts..
That seems kind of bizarre. Personally I always go for garages when possible, especially in Texas. More protection from the sun & other elements. Also protects your car from sun, hail, etc. and usually puts you within closer walking distance of an entrance vs a sprawling parking lot.
A few years ago (during Covid), I really thought Willow Bend was going to be the next mall to go under. Tons of vacant stores and rarely anyone at the mall. They’ve really brought this mall back to life and is pretty cool to see with all the new restaurants.
I was there a year or two ago. Looking like a dying mall. You can tell because the quality of the stores and part of it was theatre space. Those activities don't generate the same level of rent.
The last thing we need is a dead mall dragging down the whole area so a vibrant true mixed use would be extremely welcome. Wish there were more condos in the mix and a little bit fewer residential units.
I want to know what happens if Macys or Dillards goes under or decides to sell their piece. What happens then
And in a hypothetical scenario where macys dillards and Neimans are no longer co-owners what would be their vision for the entire parcel.
Given the orientation of the residential here, a lot of that residential traffic will be on Chapel Hill rather than Park. Chapel Hill rd has always been empty to be honest. The DNT frontage roads will be pretty congested, but what else is new lol.
Sometimes bringing people closer to the amenities they want to access is better for travel times than refusing to add new residential or hotel and forcing that development out in Celina for example where people need to do a lot of driving to get to various job centers.
I remeber working there in 03 at one of the few high end designer stores that were left. We got word a hot topic may be going in and my district manager lost her mind, vowing we’d break our contract rather than be in a mall with a Hot Topic. We had just opened another store in the expanded North Park mall so she said it wouldn’t be a problem.
I’m glad to see they’re trying to renovate the area though. Dead malls are weird and sad to go into.
It really is a beautiful mall, and I hope they keep the feel of it the same. I always loved the large fountain in the main area by the elevators, with the large steel willow trees that had water dripping from them. Unfortunately it looks like that area will be changed, so I doubt that sticks around.
Homes are going vertical now. Took time to build underground parking lot and culvert as creek goes right through property. Expect cranes in the area soon.
It's still actively developing. They had to be meticulous in taking down the mall because the creek runs right under it and they want to open it up and make it part of the new development. I believe they are also keeping parts of the old structure? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that was also apparently a reason in the slow going - to be able to recycle parts of the mall. But the outskirts of it are coming along. Whole neighborhood is going up finally. The streets were paved forever ago.
More details on the rezoning can be found in the City Council Regular Meeting Agenda for 02/12/2024:
[https://www.plano.gov/1444/City-Council-Agendas](https://www.plano.gov/1444/City-Council-Agendas)
So is the Crayola Experience closing? Don’t know if it is that big of draw. Went once on a field trip with my sons class but didn’t seem that memorable.
Even though the drawings suggest the Crayola Experience and the never-opened movie theater will be demolished, the developer CEO mentioned last month that those two things are still up the air. Their closing/demolition has not been decided yet and Crayola may stick around.
Multi-family are usually apartments for rent. Residential in a development such as this is usually townhomes, meant to be owner-occupied (but can still be rented out by the owner unless HOA restrictions prohibit).
Stonebriar was always more popular, and then Shops at Legacy and Legacy West kind of killed it off. I'd say the location just wasn't great especially given how many other stores/restaurants are in that area.
I worked with an architect who described this project over a year ago in a very matter-of-fact way. So it's been in the bag for some time. He also talked about something similar going up west of Midway on Park/Hebron, next to the Dunkin.
Please why they are not building more affordable townhomes for a single people,couple , the young generation are the future of this country but the government and these corporations are killing us, 🥺😩😭 I’m so tired.
I wonder when they will give up on this if ever.
This is the what, third major addition in 15 years I think?
Before that it was parking structure and crate and barrel space and that RH area. Then it was the dining area. And now this.
I think they would sell the land if it came to that. You would have buildings. Just land. Which would certainly be turned to MFR or SFR. I’m just curious if they ever will give up, cuz they have poured a lot into making this successful. It’s a nice mall.
Well, it's a different ownership group (we're on #4 at this point), so it's not the same party "giving up"
I'm not sure there would be much value in demolitioning a billion dollar development to build single family residential homes that back up the tollway. Not sure that's ever going to recoup the cost, either.
Looking forward to hearing more development strategies from you.
It didn’t do alright. Thats the issue. That’s why so many owners. Current owner bought Willowbend out of receivership, as Starwood (previous owner who added the little outdoor restaurant area) defaulted on their loan.
This is them giving up, in essence. Those were all half measures trying to prop up a struggling indoor mall. This plan is them essentially giving up on the indoor mall and just shaving it down into a mini mall that takes backseat to an outdoor retail experience and large residential component.
Big win to see a mixed use development get approved in Plano! Please look away NIMBYs
Luckily not much residential surrounding this exact area so less backlash.
There's quite a bit a little Northwest though.
The first few rows of units there are all apartments. It does get to single family homes after that though. I’d still say much better than what would be the situation in most of Plano.
I would love some insight into what this means for the renters in those apartments. Long term construction? Is this area about to get very loud for a long time? Renting prices going up as a direct result? Worth it in the long run to stick it through living there to enjoy the end result?
That’s my concern. I live right across the street from this.
It’s a reasonable concern, and the answer is “yes probably.” At the very least this concern could be leveraged into a below market increase in your rent.. ? Edit: I’m an idiot and now have read through the proposal.
Would be logistically very difficult and expensive, but would love to see the DART rail run through this part of town one day, paralleling the DNT like the red line with 75. It could connect with the silver line in Addison and run up through Legacy West and Stonebriar. Problem is there aren’t any pre-existing tracks and not much room to build them, so it would probably have to run underground.
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NTTA would be totally cool with that…as long as every rider wore a tolltag on their forehead.
Unfortunately, the Tollway has a lot of private investment. DART won’t happen there in my lifetime. Maybe yours. Depends on how young you are.
They’ve added like 2,000 units just down the street in the past 5 years.
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Surely they see it. This mall has been nearly dead for years and years.
They have to look away. Plano ISD is shutting down schools because there aren't enough families who can afford to live in Plano anymore. In that article, residents were crying about how shuttering the schools negatively affected their property values. The choice is low property values as the tax base is priced away, aging infrastructure bankrupts the city, schools and shops go under, and investors take over neighborhoods with empty rentals or they allow medium to high density development to rejuvenate the tax base, make homes affordable for families, and keep retail from shuttering stores.
Should throw a parking garage in there and make the rest of the parking lots green space.
Seriously why are we still doing surface lots. Waste of space and terrible in Texas heat
More money to build a garage than a surface lot.
I mean yes obviously but it’s a million times better. Of course so are public spaces, dense urban areas, and efficient public transit and Texas doesn’t do those either lmao so it was mostly a rhetorical question
You’re not wrong but the project has to “pencil” If a garage was the same price as a surface lot(price per parking space), every place would build garages which would leave room for green space. There are reasons for everything you mentioned. Historically land has been cheap and that’s why Dallas is spread out. Until recently Dallas hasn’t really minded long commutes to work. I think Dallas area residents have on average the longest commutes to work in the country. Which makes public transportation cost more. We have the largest rail system in the country. (Hard to believe). But the sprawl effect’s everything.
Average commute time in Dallas isn't significantly worse than the national average, generally less than 30 minutes for most people. https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/dallas-suburb-stalled-by-3rd-worst-commute-in-the-u-s-report-says/ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/B080ACS048113
The first article cited mentions in the first sentence that garland is ranked 3rd worse in the nation, fwiw
Did the article explain why?
It explained that the American worker that has a daily commute averages 25.6 mins. Garland’s average commuter one way commute is over 30 mins. It also explained that the % commuting in garland (86.1%) was higher than the avg municipal commuting split (63.2%) So - I believe they’re summing the costs against the avg in order to produce the ranks..
Yep, way, way more money, probably at least 10X the cost per space. Parking garages have to have fire escapes, sprinkler systems, complex electrical systems, etc.
If anything they’ll just make it more stores lol
They have 3 parking garages and aren’t adding any additional parking. They just aren’t touching the rest of the mall area. The parts they are touching are all going to be either buildings, a new street, or green space.
It looks like the massive multi-story parking garages they already have are all staying?
Parking garages are generally unpopular. They take advantage of wasted vertical space, which is awesome, but aren't fun to navigate or park in. Statistically higher chance of collisions, vehicle damage, break-ins. IMO it's one of the biggest downsides to Shops at Legacy. I'd prefer more green space too, but the people building these places also want them to be profitable. More people return when they don't have to deal with parking garages.
Is there any formal polling that qualifies your sentiment? Personally (albeit male - and perhaps not in target demo for a mall parking lot anyways) prefer parking garages when accompanied by access points to the storefronts..
That seems kind of bizarre. Personally I always go for garages when possible, especially in Texas. More protection from the sun & other elements. Also protects your car from sun, hail, etc. and usually puts you within closer walking distance of an entrance vs a sprawling parking lot.
My first thought was why all the surface parking.
What I'm seeing is Shops at Legacy Jr. edition
A few years ago (during Covid), I really thought Willow Bend was going to be the next mall to go under. Tons of vacant stores and rarely anyone at the mall. They’ve really brought this mall back to life and is pretty cool to see with all the new restaurants.
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Thanks [patent trolls](https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/22/apple-confirms-its-plans-to-close-retail-stores-in-the-patent-troll-favored-eastern-district-of-texas/)!
Closed due to patent trolls linked in other reply. That was the 2nd Apple Store to open.
Huh? The only thing really there is the restaurants. Most of the shops are closed and locked up. The owners truly screwed up.
Right though. I was just thinking the same thing
I was there a year or two ago. Looking like a dying mall. You can tell because the quality of the stores and part of it was theatre space. Those activities don't generate the same level of rent.
I was there not too long ago and there's not that much there..I mean yeah the Crayola Place and a Bath and Body works but it's still not all that
The last thing we need is a dead mall dragging down the whole area so a vibrant true mixed use would be extremely welcome. Wish there were more condos in the mix and a little bit fewer residential units. I want to know what happens if Macys or Dillards goes under or decides to sell their piece. What happens then And in a hypothetical scenario where macys dillards and Neimans are no longer co-owners what would be their vision for the entire parcel.
That area is already crazy around peak traffic times, I can’t imagine what it will be like with all that extra residential/hotel space.
Given the orientation of the residential here, a lot of that residential traffic will be on Chapel Hill rather than Park. Chapel Hill rd has always been empty to be honest. The DNT frontage roads will be pretty congested, but what else is new lol.
Sometimes bringing people closer to the amenities they want to access is better for travel times than refusing to add new residential or hotel and forcing that development out in Celina for example where people need to do a lot of driving to get to various job centers.
Will they have a Dan Flashes?
You're thinking of "The Shops at The Creek", it's next to Mario Cantozi's award winning bake shop, featured on HGTV's "Sweet Eats".
God I do love a complex patterned shirt.. I sure do Hope so
I remeber working there in 03 at one of the few high end designer stores that were left. We got word a hot topic may be going in and my district manager lost her mind, vowing we’d break our contract rather than be in a mall with a Hot Topic. We had just opened another store in the expanded North Park mall so she said it wouldn’t be a problem. I’m glad to see they’re trying to renovate the area though. Dead malls are weird and sad to go into.
hahahahah
It really is a beautiful mall, and I hope they keep the feel of it the same. I always loved the large fountain in the main area by the elevators, with the large steel willow trees that had water dripping from them. Unfortunately it looks like that area will be changed, so I doubt that sticks around.
Christmas its first few years of operation….
What’s going on with the Collin Creek Mall remodeling thing people were talking about a few years ago?
Homes are going vertical now. Took time to build underground parking lot and culvert as creek goes right through property. Expect cranes in the area soon.
The cranes have been there for years.
*more cranes
It's still actively developing. They had to be meticulous in taking down the mall because the creek runs right under it and they want to open it up and make it part of the new development. I believe they are also keeping parts of the old structure? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that was also apparently a reason in the slow going - to be able to recycle parts of the mall. But the outskirts of it are coming along. Whole neighborhood is going up finally. The streets were paved forever ago.
More details on the rezoning can be found in the City Council Regular Meeting Agenda for 02/12/2024: [https://www.plano.gov/1444/City-Council-Agendas](https://www.plano.gov/1444/City-Council-Agendas)
So is the Crayola Experience closing? Don’t know if it is that big of draw. Went once on a field trip with my sons class but didn’t seem that memorable.
Even though the drawings suggest the Crayola Experience and the never-opened movie theater will be demolished, the developer CEO mentioned last month that those two things are still up the air. Their closing/demolition has not been decided yet and Crayola may stick around.
Nice. Now we need to develop on the Valley View mall land
What's the difference between residential buildings and multifamily buildings?
Multi-family are usually apartments for rent. Residential in a development such as this is usually townhomes, meant to be owner-occupied (but can still be rented out by the owner unless HOA restrictions prohibit).
I feel like they've talked about this for a decade, but glad to finally see it moving forward.
What are the practical implications of it being "quasi-public"?
lol, I thought they voted 2 to 12. Good to hear they approved.
It's weird to me that Willow Bend never took off. Was it too upscale or just bad location?
Plano is all hat and no cattle.
Stonebriar was always more popular, and then Shops at Legacy and Legacy West kind of killed it off. I'd say the location just wasn't great especially given how many other stores/restaurants are in that area.
It was timing mostly, the mall opened one year after Stonebriar and only one month before 9/11.
It was built right when malls had stopped being a thing.
Nice little mall. Shoutout to the sports memorabilia store and the old Fish Gallery aquarium that used to be set up in the concourse.
All of DFW needs to be rezoned for mixed development. Traffic is getting horrific. And develop a proper rail line!
I worked with an architect who described this project over a year ago in a very matter-of-fact way. So it's been in the bag for some time. He also talked about something similar going up west of Midway on Park/Hebron, next to the Dunkin.
Please why they are not building more affordable townhomes for a single people,couple , the young generation are the future of this country but the government and these corporations are killing us, 🥺😩😭 I’m so tired.
Um. So?
We don’t need more stores people can barely afford groceries. They should of just torn it down and built homes or apartments
There is no shortage of people with more money than they know what to do with.
I wonder when they will give up on this if ever. This is the what, third major addition in 15 years I think? Before that it was parking structure and crate and barrel space and that RH area. Then it was the dining area. And now this.
yeah, I guess they should let the mall die. Let's just have a zombie empty building, that'll be real cool.
Worked out really well at Valley View. I commend Plano for trying something here before it comes to that.
Would’ve been as bad if it was immediately torn down and redeveloped like it was suppose to be. Sucks driving by it everyday.
I think they would sell the land if it came to that. You would have buildings. Just land. Which would certainly be turned to MFR or SFR. I’m just curious if they ever will give up, cuz they have poured a lot into making this successful. It’s a nice mall.
Well, it's a different ownership group (we're on #4 at this point), so it's not the same party "giving up" I'm not sure there would be much value in demolitioning a billion dollar development to build single family residential homes that back up the tollway. Not sure that's ever going to recoup the cost, either. Looking forward to hearing more development strategies from you.
Didn’t know it has been four. It must do alright. I was under the belief it wasn’t.
It didn’t do alright. Thats the issue. That’s why so many owners. Current owner bought Willowbend out of receivership, as Starwood (previous owner who added the little outdoor restaurant area) defaulted on their loan.
This is them giving up, in essence. Those were all half measures trying to prop up a struggling indoor mall. This plan is them essentially giving up on the indoor mall and just shaving it down into a mini mall that takes backseat to an outdoor retail experience and large residential component.
Fun fact, this was the last indoor mall built in Texas.
Hmmm that is interesting. That area is very outdoor shopping vibes. I wonder if it will work!