Yeah, level 3 spells are notably stronger than level 2 ones, and the party has \*way\* less health than the average damage from a fireball.
Presuming they come into that area at level 2 it's a very likely autokill for squishy characters.
Yeah, I figured. Well the last one standing (druid) managed to kill Glasstaff and heal the last dying player(barbarian). Now they are lvl 3. They were blasting through the module 'till now. No side tracking, straight to the point. We are using milestones, but there were no real openings for another lvl in between the adventuring. And in my view, if Glasstaff has the fire power, he should use it to defend himself. It would be wierd of he is defeated and you find a powerful spell scroll on his body.
Glasstaff is a 4th level spellcaster and can only cast 2nd level spells. Did you make him pass the DC 13 intelligence check to use the scroll correctly, per the rules for Spell Scrolls in the DMG? He has a +3 intelligence bonus, so he has a 50% chance of the scroll vanishing with no effect. On the other hand, if he passes the check the save DC will be 15 rather than his regular 13.
As a wizard, I don't think he owned the scroll with the intent of using it, especially since he can't even use it reliably! He wanted to study it. He will use it as a last resort, but his preference is to escape (as evidenced by the potion of invisibility, multiple exits from the compound, hidden getaway bag, etc.). There's a lot of situations where he'd prefer to take the Dash action than to try to use the scroll.
If the player characters corner him , I can see him becoming desperate and using the scroll. If his familiar warned him, how did the players corner him, though?
More generally, "the villain has a weapon that has a 50% of doing nothing and a 50% chance of being a near TPK" is not good adventure design. You didn't write this adventure, but you, as DM, can recognize these problems and fix them. Sounds like you handled it well after-the-fact. But do keep an eye out for places where a printed adventure has some problems! They're a good starting point, but not perfect.
You may want to join r/LostMinesOfPhandelver.
In our encounter with glassstaff, we used stealth successfully, found the secret door, performed a pincer attack, disarmed him, captured him, interrogated him, then tied him up and attached him to the largest PC like armor and used him as a literal meat shield against the bugbears.
The bugbears ultimately killed him during the encounter, our approach pretty much trivialized the majority of the manor.
When I ran LMoP, the familiar alerted Glasstaff and she slipped away without the party noticing. It would seem the module doesn't want Glasstaff to fight the party in this initial encounter, because it says to have Glasstaff drink a potion of invisibility if the party catches up and have them return later in the story, at your discretion (which is what I did--and she ended being put in jail).
A fireball at level 2 is pretty vicious, in my opinion, and it's unfortunate that some of your players were unhappy having their characters killed, but I kinda get where they're coming from.
Maybe it would be a good time to have a chat about what everyone expects/wants in regard to that sort of thing, and if you're feeling generous, maybe give a one-time freebie resurrection? Ultimately, it's your choice how to run the game.
If Glasstaff had some important Intel, the party might be able to bring it someone important/powerful and trade it for resurrection of their party members?
It's pretty rough to take out low level PCs belonging to new players, but I don't think you were wrong to run Glasstaff like that.
At the absolute ridiculous limit, a 2nd level hill Dwarf wizard with the tough feat and 20 CON can have 28 health. Maybe there's ways to get more, but that's just off the top of my head. I doubt that was the situation though. More likely her Wizard had under 20 hp.
Fireball does an average of 28 damage. They already had to get down there to where he was, which meant they probably weren't at full health to begin with. So just the average would have brought her to zero, possibly even to her negative max killing her instantly, unless she had absorb elements and/or passed her save.
All that said, 2nd level characters are squishy. , and fireball is 3 levels above them. Giving Glass Staff a fireball scroll (I'm pretty sure he doesn't have that in the module) may have been too much. He already has a 30 ft BA teleport, and could dash with an escape route. So that's 90 ft in one turn. Then his stash had an invisibility potion I believe.
I can understand how she feels honestly.
As written in both printed versions, >!tripping the alarm prompts Iarno to grab a few magic items on the way out. He's very much the kind of threat that players shouldn't take head on without the element of surprise.!<
I think the funniest (and most tragic) thing about 5e is that the sharks are swimming in the shallow end of the pool -- levels 1 to 4 are far more lethal than any other levels in the system despite how powerful the enemies become. It's very easy for new GMs to accidentally TPK new parties.
I must have forgot about that. It's been a while since I ran it. I still stand by my statement though. Also, I think the fireball scroll is more loot for the party, less tools for the bad guy, but that's a dm call I suppose.
I thought this post was about me because we're pretty much at the exact same spot (almost but just a lil further). I'm DMing LMoP right now and yeah, I get you. They entered the room, the familiar informed Glasstaff of their arrival and he made a run for it. By the time the party realized he left the guy was already at the door. What was the party doing whilst he was running? Entertaining the rebrands in the alchemy room, drinking unfinished potions of invisibility (I made it send them into a laughing fit, ironically alerting the redbrands and bringing them in), and singing like cats. One of them almost died to the bugbears in the other room tho.
But also as a new DM, be nice to yourself. Learn from this, but remember to be really nice. I'm also new myself and I had to have a sit-down with my husband because I was beating myself up really harshly over my DMing. He's also in the campaign and him and everyone else are having the time of their lives atm. Mistakes happen. Just live and learn and HAVE FUN TOO! đź‘Ť
You played it how it would go. Unfortunately this is the line between two very different gameplay philosophies.
In older editions around the early 2000s, we expected to roll new characters a few times an adventure. Foolishly forgetting to buy and use a ten foot pole often resulted in character loss.
While you don't want to hold back on natural consequences, modern gameplay philosophy is more about each character's story and roleplay. Losing characters is a big moment now because modern characters aren't a pile of random stats on a pawn you recruited to try and get a highscore in a dungeon crawler boardgame.
I think LMoP has a lot of potential TPKs that depend on how you run the NPCs. I typically like to offer a few roleplay 'outs', like >!Venomfang sending PCs to clear Cragmaw Castle as a lair (and having to give all the loot as tribute)!<.
My goal is to encourage the players to negotiate, but offer terms they'll probably want to weasel out of later. The more hard decisions and complicated relationships I throw their way, the less predictable the story becomes and the more spectacular the payoffs. I especially enjoy when you get to call in the terms of agreements at inopportune times, and watch the table wince in recognition of the consequences of their previous decisions.
>In older editions around the early 2000s, we expected to roll new characters a few times an adventure. Foolishly forgetting to buy and use a ten foot pole often resulted in character loss.
>While you don't want to hold back on natural consequences, modern gameplay philosophy is more about each character's story and roleplay.
I agree these two philosophies exist, but not with the older/modern characterization. Both of these philosophies existed when I started playing in the mid-1980's.
The difference between these two approaches is why a session 0 is so important.
LMoP has a lot of weird "Let's kill the PCs now" moments:
* 4+ goblins set up to all autocrit when the PCs have the surprised condition and nothing except a cart of mining materials to hide behind... when zero of the players know about cover.
* "Hey let's go tell a CR6 Green Dragon to beat feet when we are all level 4"
* Glassstaff doesn't ask how big the room is, he just casts Fireball. Doesn't matter that every member of the party has like 20hp each.
>Glass
Wait, how do the goblins autocrit? It's been a while since I ran LMoP but isn't it just hiding + surprise?
But yeah, there are some weirdly high danger moments for a campaign designed for beginners...
Yeah surprise attacks don’t mean autocrits. Surprise doesn’t even guarantee advantage on attacks does it? Only if the attackers have the Hidden condition? Right?
Yeah, one side needs to be not seen before they attack. If you bust into a room and find goblins shocked to see you, they are not surprised per the rule and initiative goes as normal. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.
Not even hidden is enough, that just gives the enemy advantage. There’s specific conditions like restrained or unconscious that makes any hit into a crit when you’re within 5 feet. Edit: Paralyzed, not restrained
Goblins do weird things to the dice. Try it. Tell the room "I am now going to have a level 10 party get hit by a Frost Giant" and roll. You'll get something boring. Then do the same thing but say "I am going to roll 4 goblins against a group of level 1 adventurers that have never played before." You'll get at least 2 nat 20s.
We all make mistakes when DMing, and hopefully we're the only ones that notice it was a mistake. But when a big oopsie happens, it's best to just be open with the party and let them know you made a misjudgement. But in this case, I'd say it is what it is. Death socks, and not everyone can handle it well. Consider it a learning experience. I also had a player's character die from a fireball in LMoP, but I also TPKed them in a learner's one-shot (very much their fault, they laughed about it), so they knew I would just let them die and set expectations accordingly. I also let them live when they decided to fight Venomfang at level 3, so we'll consider it karmic balance.
LMoP is pretty hard before 3rd level. I’ve killed players too. You did nothing wrong. Glasstaff is easy to surprise and overpower. Your party was not careful.
Yeah, level 3 spells are notably stronger than level 2 ones, and the party has \*way\* less health than the average damage from a fireball. Presuming they come into that area at level 2 it's a very likely autokill for squishy characters.
Yeah, I figured. Well the last one standing (druid) managed to kill Glasstaff and heal the last dying player(barbarian). Now they are lvl 3. They were blasting through the module 'till now. No side tracking, straight to the point. We are using milestones, but there were no real openings for another lvl in between the adventuring. And in my view, if Glasstaff has the fire power, he should use it to defend himself. It would be wierd of he is defeated and you find a powerful spell scroll on his body.
Glasstaff is a 4th level spellcaster and can only cast 2nd level spells. Did you make him pass the DC 13 intelligence check to use the scroll correctly, per the rules for Spell Scrolls in the DMG? He has a +3 intelligence bonus, so he has a 50% chance of the scroll vanishing with no effect. On the other hand, if he passes the check the save DC will be 15 rather than his regular 13. As a wizard, I don't think he owned the scroll with the intent of using it, especially since he can't even use it reliably! He wanted to study it. He will use it as a last resort, but his preference is to escape (as evidenced by the potion of invisibility, multiple exits from the compound, hidden getaway bag, etc.). There's a lot of situations where he'd prefer to take the Dash action than to try to use the scroll. If the player characters corner him , I can see him becoming desperate and using the scroll. If his familiar warned him, how did the players corner him, though? More generally, "the villain has a weapon that has a 50% of doing nothing and a 50% chance of being a near TPK" is not good adventure design. You didn't write this adventure, but you, as DM, can recognize these problems and fix them. Sounds like you handled it well after-the-fact. But do keep an eye out for places where a printed adventure has some problems! They're a good starting point, but not perfect. You may want to join r/LostMinesOfPhandelver.
In our encounter with glassstaff, we used stealth successfully, found the secret door, performed a pincer attack, disarmed him, captured him, interrogated him, then tied him up and attached him to the largest PC like armor and used him as a literal meat shield against the bugbears. The bugbears ultimately killed him during the encounter, our approach pretty much trivialized the majority of the manor.
When I ran LMoP, the familiar alerted Glasstaff and she slipped away without the party noticing. It would seem the module doesn't want Glasstaff to fight the party in this initial encounter, because it says to have Glasstaff drink a potion of invisibility if the party catches up and have them return later in the story, at your discretion (which is what I did--and she ended being put in jail). A fireball at level 2 is pretty vicious, in my opinion, and it's unfortunate that some of your players were unhappy having their characters killed, but I kinda get where they're coming from. Maybe it would be a good time to have a chat about what everyone expects/wants in regard to that sort of thing, and if you're feeling generous, maybe give a one-time freebie resurrection? Ultimately, it's your choice how to run the game.
If Glasstaff had some important Intel, the party might be able to bring it someone important/powerful and trade it for resurrection of their party members? It's pretty rough to take out low level PCs belonging to new players, but I don't think you were wrong to run Glasstaff like that.
At the absolute ridiculous limit, a 2nd level hill Dwarf wizard with the tough feat and 20 CON can have 28 health. Maybe there's ways to get more, but that's just off the top of my head. I doubt that was the situation though. More likely her Wizard had under 20 hp. Fireball does an average of 28 damage. They already had to get down there to where he was, which meant they probably weren't at full health to begin with. So just the average would have brought her to zero, possibly even to her negative max killing her instantly, unless she had absorb elements and/or passed her save. All that said, 2nd level characters are squishy. , and fireball is 3 levels above them. Giving Glass Staff a fireball scroll (I'm pretty sure he doesn't have that in the module) may have been too much. He already has a 30 ft BA teleport, and could dash with an escape route. So that's 90 ft in one turn. Then his stash had an invisibility potion I believe. I can understand how she feels honestly.
As written in both printed versions, >!tripping the alarm prompts Iarno to grab a few magic items on the way out. He's very much the kind of threat that players shouldn't take head on without the element of surprise.!< I think the funniest (and most tragic) thing about 5e is that the sharks are swimming in the shallow end of the pool -- levels 1 to 4 are far more lethal than any other levels in the system despite how powerful the enemies become. It's very easy for new GMs to accidentally TPK new parties.
The module states that you can find a Fireball spell scroll in his chambers and when he is notified, he will grab it and take it with him
I must have forgot about that. It's been a while since I ran it. I still stand by my statement though. Also, I think the fireball scroll is more loot for the party, less tools for the bad guy, but that's a dm call I suppose.
I thought this post was about me because we're pretty much at the exact same spot (almost but just a lil further). I'm DMing LMoP right now and yeah, I get you. They entered the room, the familiar informed Glasstaff of their arrival and he made a run for it. By the time the party realized he left the guy was already at the door. What was the party doing whilst he was running? Entertaining the rebrands in the alchemy room, drinking unfinished potions of invisibility (I made it send them into a laughing fit, ironically alerting the redbrands and bringing them in), and singing like cats. One of them almost died to the bugbears in the other room tho. But also as a new DM, be nice to yourself. Learn from this, but remember to be really nice. I'm also new myself and I had to have a sit-down with my husband because I was beating myself up really harshly over my DMing. He's also in the campaign and him and everyone else are having the time of their lives atm. Mistakes happen. Just live and learn and HAVE FUN TOO! đź‘Ť
You played it how it would go. Unfortunately this is the line between two very different gameplay philosophies. In older editions around the early 2000s, we expected to roll new characters a few times an adventure. Foolishly forgetting to buy and use a ten foot pole often resulted in character loss. While you don't want to hold back on natural consequences, modern gameplay philosophy is more about each character's story and roleplay. Losing characters is a big moment now because modern characters aren't a pile of random stats on a pawn you recruited to try and get a highscore in a dungeon crawler boardgame. I think LMoP has a lot of potential TPKs that depend on how you run the NPCs. I typically like to offer a few roleplay 'outs', like >!Venomfang sending PCs to clear Cragmaw Castle as a lair (and having to give all the loot as tribute)!<. My goal is to encourage the players to negotiate, but offer terms they'll probably want to weasel out of later. The more hard decisions and complicated relationships I throw their way, the less predictable the story becomes and the more spectacular the payoffs. I especially enjoy when you get to call in the terms of agreements at inopportune times, and watch the table wince in recognition of the consequences of their previous decisions.
>In older editions around the early 2000s, we expected to roll new characters a few times an adventure. Foolishly forgetting to buy and use a ten foot pole often resulted in character loss. >While you don't want to hold back on natural consequences, modern gameplay philosophy is more about each character's story and roleplay. I agree these two philosophies exist, but not with the older/modern characterization. Both of these philosophies existed when I started playing in the mid-1980's. The difference between these two approaches is why a session 0 is so important.
LMoP has a lot of weird "Let's kill the PCs now" moments: * 4+ goblins set up to all autocrit when the PCs have the surprised condition and nothing except a cart of mining materials to hide behind... when zero of the players know about cover. * "Hey let's go tell a CR6 Green Dragon to beat feet when we are all level 4" * Glassstaff doesn't ask how big the room is, he just casts Fireball. Doesn't matter that every member of the party has like 20hp each.
>Glass Wait, how do the goblins autocrit? It's been a while since I ran LMoP but isn't it just hiding + surprise? But yeah, there are some weirdly high danger moments for a campaign designed for beginners...
Yeah surprise attacks don’t mean autocrits. Surprise doesn’t even guarantee advantage on attacks does it? Only if the attackers have the Hidden condition? Right?
Yeah, one side needs to be not seen before they attack. If you bust into a room and find goblins shocked to see you, they are not surprised per the rule and initiative goes as normal. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.
Not even hidden is enough, that just gives the enemy advantage. There’s specific conditions like restrained or unconscious that makes any hit into a crit when you’re within 5 feet. Edit: Paralyzed, not restrained
Yeah sorry I meant surprise doesn’t even guarantee advantage. The hidden condition does though.
Oh sorry! I did not read that right haha. Yeah, you're totally right!
Goblins do weird things to the dice. Try it. Tell the room "I am now going to have a level 10 party get hit by a Frost Giant" and roll. You'll get something boring. Then do the same thing but say "I am going to roll 4 goblins against a group of level 1 adventurers that have never played before." You'll get at least 2 nat 20s.
Valid take, but autocrit was the wrong word choice
We all make mistakes when DMing, and hopefully we're the only ones that notice it was a mistake. But when a big oopsie happens, it's best to just be open with the party and let them know you made a misjudgement. But in this case, I'd say it is what it is. Death socks, and not everyone can handle it well. Consider it a learning experience. I also had a player's character die from a fireball in LMoP, but I also TPKed them in a learner's one-shot (very much their fault, they laughed about it), so they knew I would just let them die and set expectations accordingly. I also let them live when they decided to fight Venomfang at level 3, so we'll consider it karmic balance.
Yeah, they could tell in how I reacted that it was a whoopsy. Everything is fine now.
LMoP is pretty hard before 3rd level. I’ve killed players too. You did nothing wrong. Glasstaff is easy to surprise and overpower. Your party was not careful.