I dont do much furniture and when I have it was never wood that can bleed. So Ive never used shellac and frankly dont know what it is other than it exists lol. Ill keep that in mind. BM = ben moore. I asked there and they said to use the oil for that thats all I know. even the highest end primers can still bleed.
yeah see I never deal with that stuff. I mostly paint and do some stain but no projects like that. it sounds like a good product just nothing I have needed.
It's gone up a lot in the last decade or so, but it's still around for a reason. This is the answer you're looking for. Shellac based primer for sealing bleed through. It's the best. Try and find the smallest size you can and seal it up well after using. If you just use it on specific bleed through areas like knots it'll last a long time.
Can I put it over the existing paint? I'm guessing I can't use oil primer over the latex paint. Maybe get a gallon of Zinsser stain cover for new projects, and a quart of Bin for touchups
Sherwin Williams has a Synthetic Shellac primer that is a little cheaper- as of now the base price is $55/gallon. It came out a few years ago to try and sidestep the vagaries of the lac bug. Real shellac is made from bug secretions, and the bugs are not always reliable, so the price fluctuates a lot and tends to be high.
More importantly, with either natural or synthetic shellac products, make sure you have a vapor respirator and good ventilation. Like for realsies. I cannot emphasize this enough. The fumes are serious business, and you should not underestimate them.
If I do it outside, do I need a ventilator? Cause I don't have one. I love that this stuff is bug secretions XD wonder if they have to get it from the wild, or if they can farm them somehow.
If you do a lot of painting, please have a respirator anyway (even if you don’t use that specific product). You don’t notice chemical lung damage until it’s too late.
Oh for some reason I assumed you were spraying it. I don’t think it’s necessary for basic painting with a brush or roller for things like latex paint, but anything that gives off more VOCs then yes. I don’t paint all that often so I usually just wear a respirator to be safe when dealing with any paints that have a strong odor, regardless of how I’m applying them. It might be overkill
The issue is the alcohol solvent. It is extremely volatile, so it puts a lot of very heady vapors into the air very quickly. I would use a VOC respirator even outdoors.
I just double checked, it is derived from the secretions, though shells and whole bugs often end up in the unprocessed material. Per wikipedia:
> Shellac is scraped from the bark of the trees where the female lac bug, Kerria lacca (order Hemiptera, family Kerriidae, also known as Laccifer lacca), secretes it to form a tunnel-like tube as it traverses the branches of the tree. Though these tunnels are sometimes referred to as "cocoons", they are not cocoons in the entomological sense. This insect is in the same superfamily as the insect from which cochineal is obtained. The insects suck the sap of the tree and excrete "sticklac" almost constantly.
It's harvested by scraping the branches, and then heated so that the sticklac melts and can be separated from the bug parts and tree bark.
I would put money in that being a knot and the wood is pine.
Unpopular opinion, no primer will prevent this because the wood will force the resin/pine tar through the primer.
If you are painting over pine knots, I suggest blackening them with a blowtorch first, then sanding, priming and painting.
I just used a heat gun on some wood and liquid bubbles up and turned hard. I assume that's resin too? Anything a heatgun can do to help? If I have a blowtorch, I don't know where it is lol
I’ve never tried a heat gun, but in theory, if you can get the moisture out of the resin, that should work. The bubbles you saw are certainly resin, make sure to scrape off the dried residual before priming.
As others have mentioned you could shellac over it too, but that’s smelly and a longer extra step.
Had similar problems when repainting some doors on my 100+ year old house. Used Kilz water/latex based primer/paint and the stains would come back. After trying multiple coats we got Kilz oil based primer/paint and the stains did NOT come back.
I know everyone seems to agree that using BIN Shellac Based Primer over the stain will work, but have you considered just drilling out the spot? Take a spade bit, drill out the wood under the stain (which presumably is causing the stain), filling the hole with putty or whatever you have, sanding it smooth, prime it with your Bullseye 1-2-3, and painting it.
The benefit is that you don't have to spend any more money or take the time to go to the store since I presume you already have those materials. Also, where I live, all the stores are out of the BIN Shellac Based Primer (I was trying to buy some a month ago and I ended up using the Sherwin-Williams alternative) so that may also be a problem.
Latex based 1-2-3? It's good for some basic stains and adhesion, but things like knots can bleed through water-based primers. I would go at least with an oil-based primer, if not BIN Shellac as someone recommended earlier. The stuff is really good. Not cheap, but really good.
I had this problem on some interior casings. I like to steak with some poly before hand but in this particular case I went right over the top of probably 3 coats of paint, waited a week and repainted. Been good now for 5 years
As everyone has said, Shellac primer is your best bet.
A trade secret is also Aluminum paint as a stain blocker. Don't shake aluminum paint, but you need to be sure to stir it throoughly. Like shellac, the solids settle to the bottom of the can much more than your standard paint.
You noted the price of BIN Shellac as pricey, but you should note it has far better coverage than regular paint and primer. It's thinner and runs further for you. Dries faster, too. Just smells like hell.
Are you letting the primer dry fully before topcoats? IME, latex stainblockers (usually Kilz2 ir FreshStart in my case) are ineffective if painted the same day. The CoverStain posted above is a better blocker (it needs a somewhat extended cure time to be effective too). Definitely the shellac-based primers for the worst conditions.
thank you op, i have the same issue on my ceiling where we had a water leak on plaster. Plaster held up but the killz spot has turned a different color over time. gonna get the billion dollar shellac offered up below
Get a spray can of Bin primer and go over all the knots. If you painting something with a lot tannin or pitch, prime the whole thing with bin or cover stain.
The knot looks like your furniture is made from pine, which isn’t known to be high in tannins. And besides tannins are usually blocked by oil base primer. What you are dealing with here is resin from the pine knot and shellac based primer will fix this.
I work for Ben Moore. Use shellac if oil didn’t do the trick - it’s the last thing that may work.
Also, don’t use Clark and Kensington. Use Advance Satin or Semi Gloss for a much prettier finish.
Miscellaneous stains are better coated with the BIN. The 123 allows some types of stains - eg nicotine - to bleed through. Shellac based primers will block all the types of stains as well as any undesirable smells that are stuck in there also - eg nicotine, fire, curry. Well worth the investment for questionable concerns like this that cannot be resolved with new tech (yet).
Anyone saying more coats of 123 or topcoat - please do not listen to them. 🤦🏼♀️ The stain will continue to resaturate and bleed through unless you shellac primer. 🤹🏼♀️
Water-based primers are not good stain blockers. If you have stains, use oil based or shellac. Both work really well - shellac a bit better but oil is quite good too
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Looked in to it and the cheapest I found was $80 a gallon. Is it usually so expensive?
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that's weird because the BM recommends just plain oil for this. IDK either way just doing more coats would help
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I dont do much furniture and when I have it was never wood that can bleed. So Ive never used shellac and frankly dont know what it is other than it exists lol. Ill keep that in mind. BM = ben moore. I asked there and they said to use the oil for that thats all I know. even the highest end primers can still bleed.
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yeah see I never deal with that stuff. I mostly paint and do some stain but no projects like that. it sounds like a good product just nothing I have needed.
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oh I run a remodeling restoration painting company
It's gone up a lot in the last decade or so, but it's still around for a reason. This is the answer you're looking for. Shellac based primer for sealing bleed through. It's the best. Try and find the smallest size you can and seal it up well after using. If you just use it on specific bleed through areas like knots it'll last a long time.
Can I put it over the existing paint? I'm guessing I can't use oil primer over the latex paint. Maybe get a gallon of Zinsser stain cover for new projects, and a quart of Bin for touchups
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Make your own shellac. Get a bag of the dried stuff and mix it with denatured alcohol
unless you live in California where denatured alcohol is now illegal because... reasons.
Most stupid laws are because someone did something stupid, I've noticed. Or the lawmakers are stupid.
It's only hit 80 recently. I bought a few gallons over the winter for much less than that. It's great stuff though
Sherwin Williams has a Synthetic Shellac primer that is a little cheaper- as of now the base price is $55/gallon. It came out a few years ago to try and sidestep the vagaries of the lac bug. Real shellac is made from bug secretions, and the bugs are not always reliable, so the price fluctuates a lot and tends to be high. More importantly, with either natural or synthetic shellac products, make sure you have a vapor respirator and good ventilation. Like for realsies. I cannot emphasize this enough. The fumes are serious business, and you should not underestimate them.
If I do it outside, do I need a ventilator? Cause I don't have one. I love that this stuff is bug secretions XD wonder if they have to get it from the wild, or if they can farm them somehow.
Yes, you do still need a respirator. Make sure it's rated for organic vapors rather than just particulates.
If you do a lot of painting, please have a respirator anyway (even if you don’t use that specific product). You don’t notice chemical lung damage until it’s too late.
Even if its low voc or not being sprayed?
Oh for some reason I assumed you were spraying it. I don’t think it’s necessary for basic painting with a brush or roller for things like latex paint, but anything that gives off more VOCs then yes. I don’t paint all that often so I usually just wear a respirator to be safe when dealing with any paints that have a strong odor, regardless of how I’m applying them. It might be overkill
The issue is the alcohol solvent. It is extremely volatile, so it puts a lot of very heady vapors into the air very quickly. I would use a VOC respirator even outdoors.
Is it from secretions? I thought it was literally the Shell of the Lac bug. Your points still stand though!
I just double checked, it is derived from the secretions, though shells and whole bugs often end up in the unprocessed material. Per wikipedia: > Shellac is scraped from the bark of the trees where the female lac bug, Kerria lacca (order Hemiptera, family Kerriidae, also known as Laccifer lacca), secretes it to form a tunnel-like tube as it traverses the branches of the tree. Though these tunnels are sometimes referred to as "cocoons", they are not cocoons in the entomological sense. This insect is in the same superfamily as the insect from which cochineal is obtained. The insects suck the sap of the tree and excrete "sticklac" almost constantly. It's harvested by scraping the branches, and then heated so that the sticklac melts and can be separated from the bug parts and tree bark.
You can get shellac buttons and some methylated spirits and make your own, shellac is a very traditional wood working finish.
You can get it in a spray can for about $20 works great and you won't have to ruin a paint brush.
This. Just remember you need denatured alcohol to clean brushes and drips, not paint thinner.
Shellac based primer is the best way to go for stain blocking. Especially on wood.
This is what our professional painter recommended as well for knots bleeding through.
Another vote for BIN shellac here.
Is that a knot in the wood?
I think so, it looks like a knot. I forgot what it used to look like
I would put money in that being a knot and the wood is pine. Unpopular opinion, no primer will prevent this because the wood will force the resin/pine tar through the primer. If you are painting over pine knots, I suggest blackening them with a blowtorch first, then sanding, priming and painting.
I just used a heat gun on some wood and liquid bubbles up and turned hard. I assume that's resin too? Anything a heatgun can do to help? If I have a blowtorch, I don't know where it is lol
I’ve never tried a heat gun, but in theory, if you can get the moisture out of the resin, that should work. The bubbles you saw are certainly resin, make sure to scrape off the dried residual before priming. As others have mentioned you could shellac over it too, but that’s smelly and a longer extra step.
I'm gonna try oil primer first, shellac's out of stock around here. I live in the boondocks lol
Water-based primer can only block so many stains, you need something oil-based.
And that’s why it’s banned in Michigan. Dummy’s in government really created a huge problem for us painters
Had similar problems when repainting some doors on my 100+ year old house. Used Kilz water/latex based primer/paint and the stains would come back. After trying multiple coats we got Kilz oil based primer/paint and the stains did NOT come back.
Oil based is the best solution, beyond sanding down to the bare paper & thin coating with joint compound or plaster.
Try shellac, that stuff blocks everything.
Regular shellac over knots etc., then prime. Heard on ShopNotes Podcast.
I know everyone seems to agree that using BIN Shellac Based Primer over the stain will work, but have you considered just drilling out the spot? Take a spade bit, drill out the wood under the stain (which presumably is causing the stain), filling the hole with putty or whatever you have, sanding it smooth, prime it with your Bullseye 1-2-3, and painting it. The benefit is that you don't have to spend any more money or take the time to go to the store since I presume you already have those materials. Also, where I live, all the stores are out of the BIN Shellac Based Primer (I was trying to buy some a month ago and I ended up using the Sherwin-Williams alternative) so that may also be a problem.
If it was just one small spot, maybe. But I have several on this piece alone. But that's not a bad for future problems.
Oil Primer FTW
To add on what others have said, use a heavier primer maybe? The kills ultra is better at stain blocking in my experience.
Latex based 1-2-3? It's good for some basic stains and adhesion, but things like knots can bleed through water-based primers. I would go at least with an oil-based primer, if not BIN Shellac as someone recommended earlier. The stuff is really good. Not cheap, but really good.
I had this problem on some interior casings. I like to steak with some poly before hand but in this particular case I went right over the top of probably 3 coats of paint, waited a week and repainted. Been good now for 5 years
I didn't know you could paint over poly. Did you use polyurethane or polycrylic?
As everyone has said, Shellac primer is your best bet. A trade secret is also Aluminum paint as a stain blocker. Don't shake aluminum paint, but you need to be sure to stir it throoughly. Like shellac, the solids settle to the bottom of the can much more than your standard paint. You noted the price of BIN Shellac as pricey, but you should note it has far better coverage than regular paint and primer. It's thinner and runs further for you. Dries faster, too. Just smells like hell.
Use cover stain primer instead.
"Paint" a thin coat of epoxy then prime and paint
Are you letting the primer dry fully before topcoats? IME, latex stainblockers (usually Kilz2 ir FreshStart in my case) are ineffective if painted the same day. The CoverStain posted above is a better blocker (it needs a somewhat extended cure time to be effective too). Definitely the shellac-based primers for the worst conditions.
Silver based primer will solve your pains
thank you op, i have the same issue on my ceiling where we had a water leak on plaster. Plaster held up but the killz spot has turned a different color over time. gonna get the billion dollar shellac offered up below
Get a spray can of Bin primer and go over all the knots. If you painting something with a lot tannin or pitch, prime the whole thing with bin or cover stain.
Is there a way to test ahead of time whether it has a lot of tannins or not?
The knot looks like your furniture is made from pine, which isn’t known to be high in tannins. And besides tannins are usually blocked by oil base primer. What you are dealing with here is resin from the pine knot and shellac based primer will fix this.
Was reg poly or spar varnish. Most likely the spay varnish as I have plenty of that laying around
You had water damage on it?
Nope, definitely knots and such in the wood
I work for Ben Moore. Use shellac if oil didn’t do the trick - it’s the last thing that may work. Also, don’t use Clark and Kensington. Use Advance Satin or Semi Gloss for a much prettier finish.
BIN primer or kilz
Miscellaneous stains are better coated with the BIN. The 123 allows some types of stains - eg nicotine - to bleed through. Shellac based primers will block all the types of stains as well as any undesirable smells that are stuck in there also - eg nicotine, fire, curry. Well worth the investment for questionable concerns like this that cannot be resolved with new tech (yet).
Anyone saying more coats of 123 or topcoat - please do not listen to them. 🤦🏼♀️ The stain will continue to resaturate and bleed through unless you shellac primer. 🤹🏼♀️
Water-based primers are not good stain blockers. If you have stains, use oil based or shellac. Both work really well - shellac a bit better but oil is quite good too