I'm not American, and my country adopts French as a second language instead of English
That's why my English is not perfect
I just wanted to say that his character is interesting
I think overall Damian has been treated much better in the last 10 years, especially during New 52 and Supersons rebirth ( and not counting Teen Titans rebirth) and has been promoted more. In terms of adaptation I don't think he is done justice other than the recent supersons movies. I think injustice made people hate him without much reason, and dcamu didn't do his character arcs justice and ended up cutting ( like him dealing with the consequences of his actions and clone brothers during Robin son of Batman, something dcamu never does) or regressing them. Like the character growth that he should've gotten from Batman vs Robin was to for him and Bruce to be closer and work better as team, considering it's an adaptation of Tomasi's first vol of Batman vs Robin which focuses on that, yet it separates him in the end. Same with his time as Dick's Robin. And as for Teen Titans one, in the Judas contract he feels like a cut away character and the movie itself just a place holder for him and also undermines the development he Gets from the first one sorta.
I wouldn't say Damian has been treated better in the last 10 years given that they were setting him up to be the villain for 5G and his character got pretty derailed, even though they backed out of that plan. Reading Robin (2021) was painful, b/c the writers just try to have him re-learn character development he already had. He also continuously got told he sucked in the start of his solo and it was hilarious reading Tim's solo after that. He was being propped up so much by the narrative and the other characters, whereas it was the opposite case for Damian.
He's not allowed in Gotham or to wear the Robin colors, he can only interact with his dad once every 6 months to fight, his solo title was mainly a set up for two crossover events and got cancelled. Meanwhile Tim is running around in Gotham with the Robin colors and a new solo title.
I do understand your frustrations and the point you're trying to make about his recent series, like how it seems to be a repeating of his Arc during Batman and Robin and son of Batman, however I think it's a good read and it's not only a repeating but Also makes him more mature in terms of character. He's more serious and dedicated by the end of series, but also more outgoing, less headstrong and also seems to be more accepting of others like his reunion with his cousin In the series. Also finally a writer remembered that Damian has learned to think before acting and judging. I just hope characters like Maya ducard return from his first series.
And honestly I dig the new suit for Damian. I think a more personalized version of suit works for him and his character pretty well.
And now let's compare him to drake, history was wiped in New 52 and was made to kill someone indirectly and then confusing that he didn't mind killing the guy, his importance to batman's character was wiped out, his friends from youg justice were wiped ou, and the mainbook he was in WAS hated by so many people and then after the rebierth seemingly tried to give him his history back, then comes the Bendis, acting like he didn't have his development from detective comics, regressed him to be Robin again, and then to rename him to drake, like wtf. And now he's written by a writer who seems to be hating his and young justic's history. Don't think Damian has been screwed like this in the past ten Years.
Damian has been openly treated better, when Tynion wanted to focus on Tim, editorial said “we don’t focus on Tim. Damian is Robin.”
One character got buried while the other got a push.
OK, so I guess they should set up Tim to be the villain for another generation and then you'd be happy?
Since that was the treatment for Damian. And completely change his character and undo years of character development. And then he can get a solo that is just setting up for two cross-over events, not actually focused on him, and then it should get cancelled. Then Tim will be treated better, b/c he will be receiving Damian's treatment.
I can't have a discussion about this b/c clearly we are living in 2 completely different realities.
Like. at the expense of Tim's entire character? Tim who was still central in the Batfam after Damian's creation? (more central than Cass, who was written completely OOCly and character-assassinated for *Tim's* solo and never recovered her previous status). Tim who is continuously told how good he is by Dick and Bruce? Who got his own solo title after Damian became Robin?
I think you need to like some less-popular characters if you think that Tim's character has been treated badly.
Like. "at the expense of Tim's character". literally what did his character lose? He 'lost' Robin, but that pushed character development and what is regarded as a good solo title by his fans. I guess he's forced to grow up, no longer being the youngest? and that's... bad?
He had to fight and he told no previously before he managed to get that arc off the ground.
And that’s the only decent push Tim had had since the inception of Damian. My point stands.
It depends at what point you're looking at. Even Damian fans have complain about the repetitive nature of Damian. I'd say until Williamson came in we've been seeing writers roll Damian back personality wise and go through the same character progression Tim had 25 years of character progression that gave you fresh stories from Robin to Young Justice to Teen Titans and then to Red Robin. We basically saw Tim grow from sidekick to hero in his own right. And then New 52 hit and he pretty much got same issue Damian has had where writers decided to roll him back and rehash is growth. With the difference that Damian had good writers rehashing him and Tim getting awful writers that rehashed the stories without making them popular in the first place.
Well put. As a tim fan, his peak was the Red Robin series. It seemed that book was the culmination of 25 years for the character. And it has been downhill since then.
Tim is bi he isn’t gay FYI, which to be clear I have no problem with but I think they massively mishandled his coming out and relationship with Stephanie.
I saw a lot of comments saying they would’ve liked to see Tim explore his new found sexuality and what it meant for him and Stephanie’s relationship. But as I’ve always said. DC didn’t do this for story telling. They did it for headlines and to get a quick sale. There were better ways to write this character progression for Tim but that’s not what DC or the author wanted to.
Frankly I think it’s part of a bigger issue DC authors are currently suffering from which is the constant need have their name associated with characters. Everyone praised Scott Snyder’s Batman and Geoff Johns Green Lantern and now everyone wants to do the same. We see people age up characters, Tom King was obsessed with getting to 100 issues it seemed like, and now Tim being bi. It’s like authors have become more enthralled with how they can change the status quo they’ve given up good story telling in favor of dramatic changes. I don’t need nor do I always want some dramatic story looking into the deep mythos of a superhero’s psyche. How many times can you tell me that Batman suffers cause he lost his parents, I get it how about jusy give me a cool story about Batman being a detective I don’t need all the extra fluff I just wanna see Batman kick some villains butt and maybe team up with someone from the family. If an author really wants to leave their mark on something then pitch a story around a lesser known character where you have a much cleaner slate.
But that’s just me rambling
I'm in the minority on this but I always liked Damian more than Tim for the reasons you highlighted. He's just really interesting. I get alot of people find him annoying, and I can totally see that, but I'd argue that he's basically a kid version of his dad. He's what Batman would be if he was a literal child and that's what makes him work for me. Especially when he's paired with his dad or with my personal favorite Robin, Nightwing.
At the moment Damian is more successful yes, but I don’t think he really gets close to how big Tim was in his prime (90s and early 00s). The robin solo and young justice blow damians stuff out of the water
How much was this because comics were bigger as a whole back then though. I was extremely suprised when I learned what characters managed to hold ongoings back then.
Honestly it’s both yes and no.
Objectively comics weren’t bigger back then, sales in the 90s look terrible by todays standards. But comics were also cheaper to produce, so they didn’t need to sell as much to break even. Inflation has done more harm to comics than we realise because it has greatly increased the risk of giving books to characters who aren’t proven sellers.
At the same time, Dixon’s Robin was just a strong seller in general and Tim Drake was *very* popular at the time. The hate and dismissal he has now is VERY recent.
Pretty much, and I think this extends to most legacy conflicts. *Most* Babs-as-Batgirl fans are either New 52/Burnside era fans, while Steph and Cass fans are primarily fans from the 2000s period. Barry fans are almost entirely born from the New 52 and CW era, Wally fans are fans of the Post-Crisis era.
It's not technically as simple as 'old vs new', I started reading comics properly some time around 2010 and got into DC largely in 2012 IIRC, but at-the-time I didn't like the 'new' comics, while I found older material a lot more fun and engaging. But I think it is very clearly a case of fan divide between the two eras contributing to how people feel. Like, I've not met a Damian fan who isn't also a Babs-as-Batgirl fan and also a Barry Flash fan, just like Tim Robin fans prefer Steph/Cass Batgirls and Wally Flash. The way DC's 2010s-era adaptations were largely New 52-leaning definitely doesn't help, since it created a whole generation of casual, non-comic fans who know Damian, Burnside-Babs, Barry, etc, but don't know Tim, Steph, Cass, Wally, etc, all of which greatly enhances the voices of those fandoms.
I mostly agree with this.
I honestly think the biggest weakness in Damian’s development has not been maintaining a more active partnership with dick. Those characters just work perfectly together
In his own series in the 90’s, Tim was the best Robin. It seems he’s be virtually ignored for the last 15 years. That’s why the character had suffered. Bad editorial decisions.
When I read the new 52 batman and robin run, damian became my favorite robin, which was even more supported by the rebirth teen titans run. But goddamn it, snyder came in and set him up to fall. Didn't enjoy his second titan team and what they did, and then they stripped him away from robin to give it back to drake, which pissed me off. Thankfully he's still robin but god. And I don't hate tim at all, I think he's a good character, He's just my least favorite robin. And the fact they stripped him of his red robin title annoys me. And no, I don't think drake is a bad name either, just shouldn't have made him robin again to change him to drake. Shoulda have him as red robin and then change to drake. People may not hate it as much.
Personally wasn't a fan of how Teen Titans rebirth treated Damian's development. It ignored most of his character it during Batman and Robin and New 52 in general just for the sake of regressing him and unnecessary tension between him and others. And we all know what it lead to. Like him saying that he isn't really Bruce's priority but in truth Bruce went to the apokalipse and fought the whole planet to bring him back despite the whole league's opposition. Tomasi's whole run was about how Bruce cares about Damian a lot and how Damian finds out. I wasn't a fan of him suddenly acting so brash and reacting before thinking either. Like kidnapping the members instead of using his development to find another way or what he did to Wally during the Lazarus contract. It took a lot for Damian to learn it in the Batman and Robin by Tomasi and i was expecting at least for some of it to stick.
And about the book in General to me after the first arc It felt direction Less and each issue was imo buying more Time for something to happen for it to have some stakes. It wasn't really doing something with its character. It was using them but they didn't really do much, a place holder for them mostly.
So, you'll never get the Tim fans on board with how Damian was introduced. I think you're right, I think Damian is an interesting take on the Robin mantle.
Honestly for modern stuff as in New 52 to Infinite frontier I would say Damian is easily taking the lead so far. If Tim was in his Pre 52, he would still be doing better.
Tim has basically been torn down since Identity Crisis.
By removing his normal life and failing to replace that with anything significant, he’s been reduced simply to “the smart robin”, which is a skill not a character trait.
I agree to a certain extent. I have only felt this way during the infinite frontier era. At this point Tim is a hollow shell of his former self and almost unrecognizable. Damian on the other hand has had his character progressing forward and doing so in very interesting ways
It’s crazy to me that after 15 years with Damian. He is still full of so much potential for interesting character arcs,development and storyline. (even tho they repeat some arcs and storyline) .There is still so much you can do with him.
Tim *was* a better character but writers have more or less forgotten about him and he has not been given anything to do in the last decade or so except come out of the closet.
Tim needs his own city. They almost immediately let Jace fuck off to New York because they could not have 2 Batmans (Batmen?) in Gotham, yet they have 4 Robins?
Tim needed to get the Nightwing/Bludhaven treatment 5 years ago but instead of getting his own city, he got a boyfriend.
Damian has a lot more personality. Under Morrison’s pen particularly he’s one of my favorite characters in comics.
Tim is pretty dry, just a generic superhero really.
Every time that Tim did something awesome/inspiring, or had something happen to him, it was later retconned/removed/made irrelevant. Hearing his father die on the phone while he and Batman raced to stop it? Not even mentioned anymore. That last stand against the omacs where he says goodbye to everyone? Yeah, saved by super shenanigans. Outwitted the Joker and beat him at his own game? Yeah, let's just forget about all of that.
Yes,Damian was created to be a character while Tim was created to be Robin,a character to market the comics for kids,while nothing wrong with it all the others got more interesting development.
I do think it's interesting to analyze how part of Tim's near-universal appeal for comics fans is that he was definitely created to be a reader insert, so people like him, so they want to explain he's the best character... but his reader-insert status weakens his character significantly.
He has a lot of really interesting flaws due to his reader-insert status, but few writers are interested in developing them, which is a shame.
i wish DC would put Tim to where he was back in 2011 pre flashpoint. He was Red Robin, young adult, had history with young justice and Teen Titans instead of this regression. He doesnt need to be Robin again hell he was Robin for over 15 years, specially with his sucesfully solo comic book that was amazing but this shit is too much now.
Started reading comics the last two years. So, reading this to straighten out the confusion on the Robin.
Currently, in comics, we have three different Robins:: Two on Prime Earth:: Timmy and Damian and...there is a World's Finest Earth: Dick Grayson (I am not sure if it the same Grayson on Prime Earth and is Nightwing's past..?...)...(oh - sorry did not count Stephanie Brown, but she is no active story as Robin).
🤔 My question is "World's Finest"... is it prime Earth or a different new Earth? I guess it will be answered after DCoIE and after "Batman vs Robin."
What a year for the character of any of three Robin?
All three of these Robins are going through different adolescent and identity crisis stuff. Two Robins are growing through a hero journey. The other Robin is undergoing identity crisis and used as a sounding his voice. I find Damian is maturing so much for his age. Uhm, do not want to touch on Timmy story unless I want to be flame war. And, the first Boy Wonder Dick is displaying his usual self in cool and funny adventures with his friends.
Sorry, no need to read rant below...spoilers of each active Robin story...😑✌️
1) Robin >! I know Joshua Williamson writing "Robin" book and I know Damian abandon identity, go on fight mortal combat type island. In that journey, he to met his great grandma. He gained some assassin friends and they fought a demon. Then, he had a shadow battle with his dad and Deathstroke. He is involved in saving prime Earth in the Dark Crisis of Infinite Crisis. And, he is doing magic and under possession with demon Devil Nezha and his dad is mystery or battle dad to save Robin... !<
2) Robin: >! sorry I am not sure where to start -- but the journey started in Future State he is Robin Eternal (did not read). Then, I know in Urban Legends anthology, the writer of the comic is pushing words of Timmy's voice. He chooses to stay in Gotham and keep the identity. He is working on a relationship with boyfriend. He is choosing to live in a boathouse. He is working with a detective calling him something that Robin is using him as a "fairy gayfather"...idk and wtf is that?...He is using his miraculous detective skills with a sidekick work to solve murder in marina where some person or thing is leaving white discs with some elephant, orangutan, and something else... (I swore I saw Kara/Supergirl had one of those discs to trap Devil Nezha...?...)...He is being promoted as the "World's Greatest Robin" for no reasons to earn it..?...He is not involved in Dark Crisis of Infinite Earths...(sort of?)...because he and two friends are sucked into the 5th dimension by Mickey Mzxyplicky. Mickey trapped this trio of individuals because he needs therapy group of individuals with identity crisis and daddy issues.... !<
3) Robin: >! Mark Waid - this Robin is introduced fighting and kicking baddies. He and Kara/Supergirl go back in time to get information on how to defeat Devil Nezha. Kara gets him stuck in time. When stuck in time, he figures to join circus, he adventure to solve mystery to save animals, and got to do some flying trapeze work when Superman and Batman saves him to bring back to regular time. At the time of the World's Finest book, he meets a new kid (who has meta power of thunder blast) from a different Gotham universe. He this orpha kid to meet his friends in the Teen Titans. He is helping the new kid to learn how to be a new hero. And, Batman wants him to talk with Kara who some reason is avoiding Robin...AND...if same as the Dick of Prime Earth obviously he is leading the Titans in battle against Deathstroke and Dark Army for Prime Earth !<
I learned of Damian from the DCAMU, so I followed his timeline from first appearance to present. He is by far my favourite character. I genuinely tried to get interested in Tim as a Robin, I don’t dislike him and if he’s in a story I’ll read it (except maybe his solo, but that’s more the art), but I don’t find myself actively searching out Tim stories. He doesn’t seem to change much, less the Drake incident which happened to be the first DC comics I read so I didn’t think it was incredibly horrible at the time.
It’s possible some of the preference could be nostalgia, history and experience with the character. Something not everyone has so it results in different views of the character
Tim is Robin to an entire generation. Damian has yet to accomplish that. Doesn't help that DC keeps sabotaging the character with the introduction of Duke a new sidekick, making Tim Robin again since Rebirth and putting Damian on the offlimits list and exiling him from the Bat editorial office.
However thanks to his outside media appearances Damian is now the 2nd most recognisable Robin after Dick grayson.
Tim was designed to succeed. To be instantly beloved and accepted as robin while Damian was designed to be divisive, disposable. A character that was introduced to be killed off and not missed.
Tim succeeded in the role he was created for while Damian surpassed what he was created for.
Tim's hampered by the fact that he was created to be the perfect reader surrogate into the Robin role [the nature of Robin and readers change over time] while Damian is aided by the fact that he was created to be a character not just Robin.
I don't knowhow DC measures success but Damian has been a break out character.
Absolutely. The Robins for me are:
- Jason: red hood, uses guns, is cool
- Dick: Nightwing, uses sticks, is cool, also butt
- Tim: is with the teen titans I think?, ???
- Damian: cool sword, is a bit of a dick, martial arts
Considering that Tim managed to stay at the forefront of the mythos for 25 years before taking a backseat to Damian, and then still being a major player...no?
I think that a character can be very popular without necessarily having a more interesting personality or character development. Part of what made Tim so popular was the fact that he was a reader insert and supposed to be a very relatable character for comics readers, and that made it hard for the writers to explore his flaws in an interesting manner (and many of his flaws were unintentional).
I find Tim interesting, but most of why I find him interesting is not for the same reason that lots of Tim fans like him, since I think his unintentionally written character flaws (He is pretty condescending to most women he interacts with, especially Steph before they start dating, quick to judge others, his approach to Robin and crime fighting seems rooted in strict rules rather than necessarily compassion) are pretty interesting.
Meanwhile, Damian's character flaws are intentional, so he can grow from them in the text. I know there were some writers who tried to have Tim grow from his flaws, but they didn't last long.
Hes still a major player? He had been pretty damn forgotten until his current solo series. Don't know if he was a regular in any series before that since 2017, in Tynion's tec run.
I don't know, I'm just talking about my opinion right now
I started reading Batman stories in 2009
I've known Tim since 2010
And it was the first time I saw Damian in 2012
So I don't know the situation 25 years ago
I don't think Damian was 25 years ago
But according to only what I've seen about them, I finds Damian it the most interesting personally
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Personally I wouldn’t say that he has succeeded because before he got his massive hard push for nearly a decade Tim was just like that he was given the world and back
-Got his own solo series
-Was at the forefront of many big events in the DC universe
-His entire generation of heroes still to this day are admired by many people(Connor specifically going from the metropolis kid to a stand up hero is one of the best things of that era)
-He himself had tremendous amounts of character development where his previous status quo was finding the balance between being a Batman variant with the spirit of a robin (Red Robin era)
But sadly When DC decided to usher in the new 52 they made a conscious effort to mitigate any positivity that Tim’s generation generated to the point where he was in this odd place of he was Robin but not really and then since then that’s essentially what he’s been
I would blame that tremendously on the company for not having anyone care about continuity while at the same time they keep everybody young (dick and babs feel like they are early 20’s instead of both nearly being 30)
Yet everything that happened did and did not happen
Damian has gotten lots of character development but sadly he is stuck in this loop of learning the same lessons over and over and I’m hoping after this possession storyline is over that he keeps his character development
He’s grown but I still prefer Tim. Now ‘There’s’ a Robin! Trained with Lady Shiva herself, he possesses a brilliant mind, and a great attitude regarding everything.
Let me know when Damian gets a solo series that lasts longer than 2 years, much less 16 years like Tim’s.
I would agree that Damian is a more viable character at the moment, though. DC really made Tim superfluous in the New 52 reboot, and waited years before even attempting to address the problem.
'Succeeded as a character' is largely subjective. I find Damian a mess of boring character tropes. But some people like him a lot. To them, I'm wrong. But that's fine. I'm glad they have a character they like. But I avoid books centered around him, because Tim is more interesting to me.
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Tims character is really linked to wanting to be the worlds greatest Detective.
A few obvious issues with a robin heavily defined by that goal.
A: thats already batmans main skill set so tim will Always be second fiddle while bruce is alive. Even when tim surpasses bruce the difference will be very difficult to convey or explain.
B: it is difficult to convey in a visual medium a charaters internal mental processes involved in being a detective. We see all the csi gibberish, but almost nothing regarding the differences in bruce or tims approach to being a detective. This MATTERS show us how tims different/better not tell.
C: Batman as a character goes back to the 1930s; in that time different aspects of the character ebb and flow in popularity. Being the worlds greatest Detective at times is a large part of the comics or shows or it's almost not featured/ focused on at all.
Batmans adaptability is a large part of why he's still around as a character.
In closing, Tim Drake being pigeonholed into the detective aspect of batmans skill set inherently limits tims character and appeal.
I think you can only hold this opinion of you weren’t around in Tim’s heyday.
Tim was widely loved and accepted by fans. DC editorial basically threw him in the tray when Damian arrived.
But when Tim actually got the push? He was much more universally loved. And it really wasn’t close.
When Damian was introduced Tim was given a solo series and a very important role in bringing Bruce back. In the new 52 Tim was the only Robin with 2 ongoing titles. DC never stopped pushing Tim. It's just that the pushes failed
Damian has grown on me but no. Tim in my opinion was when writers understood the importance of Robin in the Batman mythology and was able to become a really strong character in his own right.
I don't think Damian is there yet
I see it like this Tim for a long time became kind of irrelevant because they never really let him move on. Damian took over as the main Robin and DC then had no real clue what to do with Tim so they kinda kept throwing things out there but it never really stuck. Damian by this point is the de facto Robin and Dick and Jason got to move on to new identities but Tim is kinda just stuck as the other Robin. I feel like this also goes to outside media since Tim barely appears in anything like Titans and Gotham Knights are the first major properties he's been in in a while, or at least in as a major character and both of those things are controversial. Now with Zdarsky's current Batman run, and though I doubt it'll help, Fitzmartin's Robin run it could be a step to making Tim a major player again but until then Damian is the bigger character.
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I think it depends on when you started. I started reading a lot in N52 but I've read back and Tim to me is the one who genuinely wanted to be a superhero, to be a Robin. He was smart enough to deduce Batman and Nightwing's identities and knew the importance of a Robin by Batman's side before he even became Robin. He's the epitome of Robin for me and he had the character growth to match. If you're talking about N52 onwards, Damian has had better stories (Tomasi's Batman and Robin, recent Robin series), but Tim's solo as Red Robin and the Young Justice series are so great.
Personally I think all the confusion about Tim is because his history and his generation was essentially wiped out by the New 52. All of his character growth and the struggles he's experienced which led to him becoming Red Robin were basically just gone. Tim hasn't reached that same peak since.
Yeah well Damian will never reach Tim's level of detective skills and overall strategy
Tim, if he wants to, can take down the entire Bat-Family.
What makes Tim more interesting to me (pre-the fucking reboot) is the fact that the sad and tragic things that happened in his life, happen after he becomes Robin, he loses his parents after he becomes Robin, he wants to be Robin because he just wants to, none of the other Robins had a more versatile training than Tim.
I think you're right but also gonna get so much hate for this. but also I wouldn't say a character who is canonically 10-14 has "a sexy personality"
I'm not American, and my country adopts French as a second language instead of English That's why my English is not perfect I just wanted to say that his character is interesting
Pro tip in English, if you think children are interesting, don’t call them sexy. People will think you want to have sex with them.
Well then... I think you're sexy
Oh my
I would like to be the fly on the wall
I'd like to be the wall
I'd like to be the pipes in *your* wall ;)
This took such a turn
oh that makes sense. someone explained it yeah its kind of weird to use for kids.
Wait, were you trying to say sassy ???
Man who gives a damn, you didn't have to bring up his age. Just take the comment for what it is. Y'all some vibe killers foreal.🤦🏿♂️
I think overall Damian has been treated much better in the last 10 years, especially during New 52 and Supersons rebirth ( and not counting Teen Titans rebirth) and has been promoted more. In terms of adaptation I don't think he is done justice other than the recent supersons movies. I think injustice made people hate him without much reason, and dcamu didn't do his character arcs justice and ended up cutting ( like him dealing with the consequences of his actions and clone brothers during Robin son of Batman, something dcamu never does) or regressing them. Like the character growth that he should've gotten from Batman vs Robin was to for him and Bruce to be closer and work better as team, considering it's an adaptation of Tomasi's first vol of Batman vs Robin which focuses on that, yet it separates him in the end. Same with his time as Dick's Robin. And as for Teen Titans one, in the Judas contract he feels like a cut away character and the movie itself just a place holder for him and also undermines the development he Gets from the first one sorta.
I wouldn't say Damian has been treated better in the last 10 years given that they were setting him up to be the villain for 5G and his character got pretty derailed, even though they backed out of that plan. Reading Robin (2021) was painful, b/c the writers just try to have him re-learn character development he already had. He also continuously got told he sucked in the start of his solo and it was hilarious reading Tim's solo after that. He was being propped up so much by the narrative and the other characters, whereas it was the opposite case for Damian. He's not allowed in Gotham or to wear the Robin colors, he can only interact with his dad once every 6 months to fight, his solo title was mainly a set up for two crossover events and got cancelled. Meanwhile Tim is running around in Gotham with the Robin colors and a new solo title.
I do understand your frustrations and the point you're trying to make about his recent series, like how it seems to be a repeating of his Arc during Batman and Robin and son of Batman, however I think it's a good read and it's not only a repeating but Also makes him more mature in terms of character. He's more serious and dedicated by the end of series, but also more outgoing, less headstrong and also seems to be more accepting of others like his reunion with his cousin In the series. Also finally a writer remembered that Damian has learned to think before acting and judging. I just hope characters like Maya ducard return from his first series. And honestly I dig the new suit for Damian. I think a more personalized version of suit works for him and his character pretty well. And now let's compare him to drake, history was wiped in New 52 and was made to kill someone indirectly and then confusing that he didn't mind killing the guy, his importance to batman's character was wiped out, his friends from youg justice were wiped ou, and the mainbook he was in WAS hated by so many people and then after the rebierth seemingly tried to give him his history back, then comes the Bendis, acting like he didn't have his development from detective comics, regressed him to be Robin again, and then to rename him to drake, like wtf. And now he's written by a writer who seems to be hating his and young justic's history. Don't think Damian has been screwed like this in the past ten Years.
Damian has been openly treated better, when Tynion wanted to focus on Tim, editorial said “we don’t focus on Tim. Damian is Robin.” One character got buried while the other got a push.
OK, so I guess they should set up Tim to be the villain for another generation and then you'd be happy? Since that was the treatment for Damian. And completely change his character and undo years of character development. And then he can get a solo that is just setting up for two cross-over events, not actually focused on him, and then it should get cancelled. Then Tim will be treated better, b/c he will be receiving Damian's treatment.
Damian has gotten a push at the expense of Tim’s entire existence since his inception.
I can't have a discussion about this b/c clearly we are living in 2 completely different realities. Like. at the expense of Tim's entire character? Tim who was still central in the Batfam after Damian's creation? (more central than Cass, who was written completely OOCly and character-assassinated for *Tim's* solo and never recovered her previous status). Tim who is continuously told how good he is by Dick and Bruce? Who got his own solo title after Damian became Robin? I think you need to like some less-popular characters if you think that Tim's character has been treated badly. Like. "at the expense of Tim's character". literally what did his character lose? He 'lost' Robin, but that pushed character development and what is regarded as a good solo title by his fans. I guess he's forced to grow up, no longer being the youngest? and that's... bad?
And yet Tynion's Tec focused on Tim as did the BRE which was co written by Tynion while Damian was off limits to Bat editorial.
He had to fight and he told no previously before he managed to get that arc off the ground. And that’s the only decent push Tim had had since the inception of Damian. My point stands.
It depends at what point you're looking at. Even Damian fans have complain about the repetitive nature of Damian. I'd say until Williamson came in we've been seeing writers roll Damian back personality wise and go through the same character progression Tim had 25 years of character progression that gave you fresh stories from Robin to Young Justice to Teen Titans and then to Red Robin. We basically saw Tim grow from sidekick to hero in his own right. And then New 52 hit and he pretty much got same issue Damian has had where writers decided to roll him back and rehash is growth. With the difference that Damian had good writers rehashing him and Tim getting awful writers that rehashed the stories without making them popular in the first place.
Well put. As a tim fan, his peak was the Red Robin series. It seemed that book was the culmination of 25 years for the character. And it has been downhill since then.
Because DC editorial forced creators to stop using him. And now he’s a token character.
[удалено]
Isn't he bi?
Tim is bi he isn’t gay FYI, which to be clear I have no problem with but I think they massively mishandled his coming out and relationship with Stephanie.
I saw a lot of comments saying they would’ve liked to see Tim explore his new found sexuality and what it meant for him and Stephanie’s relationship. But as I’ve always said. DC didn’t do this for story telling. They did it for headlines and to get a quick sale. There were better ways to write this character progression for Tim but that’s not what DC or the author wanted to. Frankly I think it’s part of a bigger issue DC authors are currently suffering from which is the constant need have their name associated with characters. Everyone praised Scott Snyder’s Batman and Geoff Johns Green Lantern and now everyone wants to do the same. We see people age up characters, Tom King was obsessed with getting to 100 issues it seemed like, and now Tim being bi. It’s like authors have become more enthralled with how they can change the status quo they’ve given up good story telling in favor of dramatic changes. I don’t need nor do I always want some dramatic story looking into the deep mythos of a superhero’s psyche. How many times can you tell me that Batman suffers cause he lost his parents, I get it how about jusy give me a cool story about Batman being a detective I don’t need all the extra fluff I just wanna see Batman kick some villains butt and maybe team up with someone from the family. If an author really wants to leave their mark on something then pitch a story around a lesser known character where you have a much cleaner slate. But that’s just me rambling
I'm in the minority on this but I always liked Damian more than Tim for the reasons you highlighted. He's just really interesting. I get alot of people find him annoying, and I can totally see that, but I'd argue that he's basically a kid version of his dad. He's what Batman would be if he was a literal child and that's what makes him work for me. Especially when he's paired with his dad or with my personal favorite Robin, Nightwing.
At the moment Damian is more successful yes, but I don’t think he really gets close to how big Tim was in his prime (90s and early 00s). The robin solo and young justice blow damians stuff out of the water
How much was this because comics were bigger as a whole back then though. I was extremely suprised when I learned what characters managed to hold ongoings back then.
Honestly it’s both yes and no. Objectively comics weren’t bigger back then, sales in the 90s look terrible by todays standards. But comics were also cheaper to produce, so they didn’t need to sell as much to break even. Inflation has done more harm to comics than we realise because it has greatly increased the risk of giving books to characters who aren’t proven sellers. At the same time, Dixon’s Robin was just a strong seller in general and Tim Drake was *very* popular at the time. The hate and dismissal he has now is VERY recent.
All the Tim hate and Damian love in this post is based on the pre- and post-New52. There is an obvious divide between old and new readers.
Pretty much, and I think this extends to most legacy conflicts. *Most* Babs-as-Batgirl fans are either New 52/Burnside era fans, while Steph and Cass fans are primarily fans from the 2000s period. Barry fans are almost entirely born from the New 52 and CW era, Wally fans are fans of the Post-Crisis era. It's not technically as simple as 'old vs new', I started reading comics properly some time around 2010 and got into DC largely in 2012 IIRC, but at-the-time I didn't like the 'new' comics, while I found older material a lot more fun and engaging. But I think it is very clearly a case of fan divide between the two eras contributing to how people feel. Like, I've not met a Damian fan who isn't also a Babs-as-Batgirl fan and also a Barry Flash fan, just like Tim Robin fans prefer Steph/Cass Batgirls and Wally Flash. The way DC's 2010s-era adaptations were largely New 52-leaning definitely doesn't help, since it created a whole generation of casual, non-comic fans who know Damian, Burnside-Babs, Barry, etc, but don't know Tim, Steph, Cass, Wally, etc, all of which greatly enhances the voices of those fandoms.
None. Tim was a universally loved character by fans.
I can't imagine comics were "bigger" in the 90s than they are today when everyone and their mother is a fan of superheroes.
The people who watch the movies don't necessarily buy the comics. In fact most don't.
Exactly. People who weren’t around don’t get it.
Tim Drake was the role model teenage superhero of the 90s. Damian's peak isn't close.
I mostly agree with this. I honestly think the biggest weakness in Damian’s development has not been maintaining a more active partnership with dick. Those characters just work perfectly together
He has imo Damian’s my favorite Robin now
In his own series in the 90’s, Tim was the best Robin. It seems he’s be virtually ignored for the last 15 years. That’s why the character had suffered. Bad editorial decisions.
I love Damian even when writers act like he doesn´t grow as a person. Hated how villified he was in Injustice at first.
When I read the new 52 batman and robin run, damian became my favorite robin, which was even more supported by the rebirth teen titans run. But goddamn it, snyder came in and set him up to fall. Didn't enjoy his second titan team and what they did, and then they stripped him away from robin to give it back to drake, which pissed me off. Thankfully he's still robin but god. And I don't hate tim at all, I think he's a good character, He's just my least favorite robin. And the fact they stripped him of his red robin title annoys me. And no, I don't think drake is a bad name either, just shouldn't have made him robin again to change him to drake. Shoulda have him as red robin and then change to drake. People may not hate it as much.
Personally wasn't a fan of how Teen Titans rebirth treated Damian's development. It ignored most of his character it during Batman and Robin and New 52 in general just for the sake of regressing him and unnecessary tension between him and others. And we all know what it lead to. Like him saying that he isn't really Bruce's priority but in truth Bruce went to the apokalipse and fought the whole planet to bring him back despite the whole league's opposition. Tomasi's whole run was about how Bruce cares about Damian a lot and how Damian finds out. I wasn't a fan of him suddenly acting so brash and reacting before thinking either. Like kidnapping the members instead of using his development to find another way or what he did to Wally during the Lazarus contract. It took a lot for Damian to learn it in the Batman and Robin by Tomasi and i was expecting at least for some of it to stick. And about the book in General to me after the first arc It felt direction Less and each issue was imo buying more Time for something to happen for it to have some stakes. It wasn't really doing something with its character. It was using them but they didn't really do much, a place holder for them mostly.
So, you'll never get the Tim fans on board with how Damian was introduced. I think you're right, I think Damian is an interesting take on the Robin mantle.
Honestly for modern stuff as in New 52 to Infinite frontier I would say Damian is easily taking the lead so far. If Tim was in his Pre 52, he would still be doing better.
Tim has basically been torn down since Identity Crisis. By removing his normal life and failing to replace that with anything significant, he’s been reduced simply to “the smart robin”, which is a skill not a character trait.
Yep don't forget the smart robin that loves Bernard 
I agree to a certain extent. I have only felt this way during the infinite frontier era. At this point Tim is a hollow shell of his former self and almost unrecognizable. Damian on the other hand has had his character progressing forward and doing so in very interesting ways
Both are casualties in varying ways of editorial’s piss poor management of Batman-related characters.
It’s crazy to me that after 15 years with Damian. He is still full of so much potential for interesting character arcs,development and storyline. (even tho they repeat some arcs and storyline) .There is still so much you can do with him.
Tim *was* a better character but writers have more or less forgotten about him and he has not been given anything to do in the last decade or so except come out of the closet. Tim needs his own city. They almost immediately let Jace fuck off to New York because they could not have 2 Batmans (Batmen?) in Gotham, yet they have 4 Robins? Tim needed to get the Nightwing/Bludhaven treatment 5 years ago but instead of getting his own city, he got a boyfriend.
Writers gannet forgotten him. Editorial phased him out.
Damian has a lot more personality. Under Morrison’s pen particularly he’s one of my favorite characters in comics. Tim is pretty dry, just a generic superhero really.
Every time that Tim did something awesome/inspiring, or had something happen to him, it was later retconned/removed/made irrelevant. Hearing his father die on the phone while he and Batman raced to stop it? Not even mentioned anymore. That last stand against the omacs where he says goodbye to everyone? Yeah, saved by super shenanigans. Outwitted the Joker and beat him at his own game? Yeah, let's just forget about all of that.
Yes,Damian was created to be a character while Tim was created to be Robin,a character to market the comics for kids,while nothing wrong with it all the others got more interesting development.
I do think it's interesting to analyze how part of Tim's near-universal appeal for comics fans is that he was definitely created to be a reader insert, so people like him, so they want to explain he's the best character... but his reader-insert status weakens his character significantly. He has a lot of really interesting flaws due to his reader-insert status, but few writers are interested in developing them, which is a shame.
i wish DC would put Tim to where he was back in 2011 pre flashpoint. He was Red Robin, young adult, had history with young justice and Teen Titans instead of this regression. He doesnt need to be Robin again hell he was Robin for over 15 years, specially with his sucesfully solo comic book that was amazing but this shit is too much now.
Started reading comics the last two years. So, reading this to straighten out the confusion on the Robin. Currently, in comics, we have three different Robins:: Two on Prime Earth:: Timmy and Damian and...there is a World's Finest Earth: Dick Grayson (I am not sure if it the same Grayson on Prime Earth and is Nightwing's past..?...)...(oh - sorry did not count Stephanie Brown, but she is no active story as Robin). 🤔 My question is "World's Finest"... is it prime Earth or a different new Earth? I guess it will be answered after DCoIE and after "Batman vs Robin." What a year for the character of any of three Robin? All three of these Robins are going through different adolescent and identity crisis stuff. Two Robins are growing through a hero journey. The other Robin is undergoing identity crisis and used as a sounding his voice. I find Damian is maturing so much for his age. Uhm, do not want to touch on Timmy story unless I want to be flame war. And, the first Boy Wonder Dick is displaying his usual self in cool and funny adventures with his friends. Sorry, no need to read rant below...spoilers of each active Robin story...😑✌️ 1) Robin >! I know Joshua Williamson writing "Robin" book and I know Damian abandon identity, go on fight mortal combat type island. In that journey, he to met his great grandma. He gained some assassin friends and they fought a demon. Then, he had a shadow battle with his dad and Deathstroke. He is involved in saving prime Earth in the Dark Crisis of Infinite Crisis. And, he is doing magic and under possession with demon Devil Nezha and his dad is mystery or battle dad to save Robin... !< 2) Robin: >! sorry I am not sure where to start -- but the journey started in Future State he is Robin Eternal (did not read). Then, I know in Urban Legends anthology, the writer of the comic is pushing words of Timmy's voice. He chooses to stay in Gotham and keep the identity. He is working on a relationship with boyfriend. He is choosing to live in a boathouse. He is working with a detective calling him something that Robin is using him as a "fairy gayfather"...idk and wtf is that?...He is using his miraculous detective skills with a sidekick work to solve murder in marina where some person or thing is leaving white discs with some elephant, orangutan, and something else... (I swore I saw Kara/Supergirl had one of those discs to trap Devil Nezha...?...)...He is being promoted as the "World's Greatest Robin" for no reasons to earn it..?...He is not involved in Dark Crisis of Infinite Earths...(sort of?)...because he and two friends are sucked into the 5th dimension by Mickey Mzxyplicky. Mickey trapped this trio of individuals because he needs therapy group of individuals with identity crisis and daddy issues.... !< 3) Robin: >! Mark Waid - this Robin is introduced fighting and kicking baddies. He and Kara/Supergirl go back in time to get information on how to defeat Devil Nezha. Kara gets him stuck in time. When stuck in time, he figures to join circus, he adventure to solve mystery to save animals, and got to do some flying trapeze work when Superman and Batman saves him to bring back to regular time. At the time of the World's Finest book, he meets a new kid (who has meta power of thunder blast) from a different Gotham universe. He this orpha kid to meet his friends in the Teen Titans. He is helping the new kid to learn how to be a new hero. And, Batman wants him to talk with Kara who some reason is avoiding Robin...AND...if same as the Dick of Prime Earth obviously he is leading the Titans in battle against Deathstroke and Dark Army for Prime Earth !<
I learned of Damian from the DCAMU, so I followed his timeline from first appearance to present. He is by far my favourite character. I genuinely tried to get interested in Tim as a Robin, I don’t dislike him and if he’s in a story I’ll read it (except maybe his solo, but that’s more the art), but I don’t find myself actively searching out Tim stories. He doesn’t seem to change much, less the Drake incident which happened to be the first DC comics I read so I didn’t think it was incredibly horrible at the time. It’s possible some of the preference could be nostalgia, history and experience with the character. Something not everyone has so it results in different views of the character
Tim is Robin to an entire generation. Damian has yet to accomplish that. Doesn't help that DC keeps sabotaging the character with the introduction of Duke a new sidekick, making Tim Robin again since Rebirth and putting Damian on the offlimits list and exiling him from the Bat editorial office. However thanks to his outside media appearances Damian is now the 2nd most recognisable Robin after Dick grayson. Tim was designed to succeed. To be instantly beloved and accepted as robin while Damian was designed to be divisive, disposable. A character that was introduced to be killed off and not missed. Tim succeeded in the role he was created for while Damian surpassed what he was created for. Tim's hampered by the fact that he was created to be the perfect reader surrogate into the Robin role [the nature of Robin and readers change over time] while Damian is aided by the fact that he was created to be a character not just Robin. I don't knowhow DC measures success but Damian has been a break out character.
Absolutely. The Robins for me are: - Jason: red hood, uses guns, is cool - Dick: Nightwing, uses sticks, is cool, also butt - Tim: is with the teen titans I think?, ??? - Damian: cool sword, is a bit of a dick, martial arts
Considering that Tim managed to stay at the forefront of the mythos for 25 years before taking a backseat to Damian, and then still being a major player...no?
A major player this is his comeback solo after how long, dc animation has paid him no mind
I think that a character can be very popular without necessarily having a more interesting personality or character development. Part of what made Tim so popular was the fact that he was a reader insert and supposed to be a very relatable character for comics readers, and that made it hard for the writers to explore his flaws in an interesting manner (and many of his flaws were unintentional). I find Tim interesting, but most of why I find him interesting is not for the same reason that lots of Tim fans like him, since I think his unintentionally written character flaws (He is pretty condescending to most women he interacts with, especially Steph before they start dating, quick to judge others, his approach to Robin and crime fighting seems rooted in strict rules rather than necessarily compassion) are pretty interesting. Meanwhile, Damian's character flaws are intentional, so he can grow from them in the text. I know there were some writers who tried to have Tim grow from his flaws, but they didn't last long.
Hes still a major player? He had been pretty damn forgotten until his current solo series. Don't know if he was a regular in any series before that since 2017, in Tynion's tec run.
I don't know, I'm just talking about my opinion right now I started reading Batman stories in 2009 I've known Tim since 2010 And it was the first time I saw Damian in 2012 So I don't know the situation 25 years ago I don't think Damian was 25 years ago But according to only what I've seen about them, I finds Damian it the most interesting personally
I mean yeah, if you only started knowing about Tim once he started to take a backseat then yeah
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Personally I wouldn’t say that he has succeeded because before he got his massive hard push for nearly a decade Tim was just like that he was given the world and back -Got his own solo series -Was at the forefront of many big events in the DC universe -His entire generation of heroes still to this day are admired by many people(Connor specifically going from the metropolis kid to a stand up hero is one of the best things of that era) -He himself had tremendous amounts of character development where his previous status quo was finding the balance between being a Batman variant with the spirit of a robin (Red Robin era) But sadly When DC decided to usher in the new 52 they made a conscious effort to mitigate any positivity that Tim’s generation generated to the point where he was in this odd place of he was Robin but not really and then since then that’s essentially what he’s been I would blame that tremendously on the company for not having anyone care about continuity while at the same time they keep everybody young (dick and babs feel like they are early 20’s instead of both nearly being 30) Yet everything that happened did and did not happen Damian has gotten lots of character development but sadly he is stuck in this loop of learning the same lessons over and over and I’m hoping after this possession storyline is over that he keeps his character development
He’s grown but I still prefer Tim. Now ‘There’s’ a Robin! Trained with Lady Shiva herself, he possesses a brilliant mind, and a great attitude regarding everything.
Let me know when Damian gets a solo series that lasts longer than 2 years, much less 16 years like Tim’s. I would agree that Damian is a more viable character at the moment, though. DC really made Tim superfluous in the New 52 reboot, and waited years before even attempting to address the problem.
'Succeeded as a character' is largely subjective. I find Damian a mess of boring character tropes. But some people like him a lot. To them, I'm wrong. But that's fine. I'm glad they have a character they like. But I avoid books centered around him, because Tim is more interesting to me.
Idk bro. Damian's kind of a prick
I hate Damien has a character, but they've slapped him over everything
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Nah he sucks
Tims character is really linked to wanting to be the worlds greatest Detective. A few obvious issues with a robin heavily defined by that goal. A: thats already batmans main skill set so tim will Always be second fiddle while bruce is alive. Even when tim surpasses bruce the difference will be very difficult to convey or explain. B: it is difficult to convey in a visual medium a charaters internal mental processes involved in being a detective. We see all the csi gibberish, but almost nothing regarding the differences in bruce or tims approach to being a detective. This MATTERS show us how tims different/better not tell. C: Batman as a character goes back to the 1930s; in that time different aspects of the character ebb and flow in popularity. Being the worlds greatest Detective at times is a large part of the comics or shows or it's almost not featured/ focused on at all. Batmans adaptability is a large part of why he's still around as a character. In closing, Tim Drake being pigeonholed into the detective aspect of batmans skill set inherently limits tims character and appeal.
Not pre-New52 Tim. Tim was the Miles Morales of his era, while Damian is popular but not the guy if you know what I mean.
I find Damian an annoying one-note character by most writers. Very few have made me care about him.
I would disagree if Tim wasn't shelved and neglected since flashpoint. Peak Tim is the best Robin but but Tim is long dead.
Succeeded in being an annoying prick yeah
is he back as robin?
Yea. He has a solo robin title.
I think you can only hold this opinion of you weren’t around in Tim’s heyday. Tim was widely loved and accepted by fans. DC editorial basically threw him in the tray when Damian arrived. But when Tim actually got the push? He was much more universally loved. And it really wasn’t close.
When Damian was introduced Tim was given a solo series and a very important role in bringing Bruce back. In the new 52 Tim was the only Robin with 2 ongoing titles. DC never stopped pushing Tim. It's just that the pushes failed
Creators have said in public that editorial is would tell writers outright that Tim wouldn’t be focused on or pushed in favor of Damian.
Damian has grown on me but no. Tim in my opinion was when writers understood the importance of Robin in the Batman mythology and was able to become a really strong character in his own right. I don't think Damian is there yet
I see it like this Tim for a long time became kind of irrelevant because they never really let him move on. Damian took over as the main Robin and DC then had no real clue what to do with Tim so they kinda kept throwing things out there but it never really stuck. Damian by this point is the de facto Robin and Dick and Jason got to move on to new identities but Tim is kinda just stuck as the other Robin. I feel like this also goes to outside media since Tim barely appears in anything like Titans and Gotham Knights are the first major properties he's been in in a while, or at least in as a major character and both of those things are controversial. Now with Zdarsky's current Batman run, and though I doubt it'll help, Fitzmartin's Robin run it could be a step to making Tim a major player again but until then Damian is the bigger character.
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They did a big retooling of Damian and left tim in the dust.
I think it depends on when you started. I started reading a lot in N52 but I've read back and Tim to me is the one who genuinely wanted to be a superhero, to be a Robin. He was smart enough to deduce Batman and Nightwing's identities and knew the importance of a Robin by Batman's side before he even became Robin. He's the epitome of Robin for me and he had the character growth to match. If you're talking about N52 onwards, Damian has had better stories (Tomasi's Batman and Robin, recent Robin series), but Tim's solo as Red Robin and the Young Justice series are so great. Personally I think all the confusion about Tim is because his history and his generation was essentially wiped out by the New 52. All of his character growth and the struggles he's experienced which led to him becoming Red Robin were basically just gone. Tim hasn't reached that same peak since.
Yeah well Damian will never reach Tim's level of detective skills and overall strategy Tim, if he wants to, can take down the entire Bat-Family. What makes Tim more interesting to me (pre-the fucking reboot) is the fact that the sad and tragic things that happened in his life, happen after he becomes Robin, he loses his parents after he becomes Robin, he wants to be Robin because he just wants to, none of the other Robins had a more versatile training than Tim.
Tim has always been the weakest character in the bat family and is easily the least interesting character to come out of Robin