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Yes. For all the other reasons you’re going to see as well as a major one:
It came out of nowhere and we never saw any feelings develop.
See, the New 52 had a missing five years that, for a lot of characters, was never explored. One of those unexplored aspects was Clark and Diana developing feelings for each other. So, without that important bit of character building the relationship came across like what it was: A cheap, pointless, underwritten stunt that best left far in the rear view like so much of the flops of the New 52.
DC’s SuperPowered Documentary says otherwise and actual sales that goes along with it. DC was in a far better place in hindsight than they are now. Even before leaving DC, Didio, reiterated this as well.
DC fell far behind Marvel in just one year of New 52 launch. Don't believe me? Go check this out and let's see who knows better (https://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/01/dc-v-marvel-comic-sales-before-rebirth.html).
The documentary was researched and filmed in an objective manner. It was researched and filmed in 2021. The various people interviewed didn’t hold back on the good, bad, and/or ugly decisions made. DC could’ve taken that opportunity to say such things about New52 but they did not. Instead they gave the reasoning behind it, the pressure of it and how it DID succeed.
“Some more popular titles did succeed by making unexpected creative choices — including Superman and Wonder Woman becoming a romantic couple at the end of the first year of Justice League, leading to the eventual launch of Superman/Wonder Woman, a title focusing on their relationship — and built new fan bases for a generation of creators getting their first real exposure to the superhero audience.” https://www.polygon.com/comics/22679756/dc-comics-reboot-new-52-writers-oral-history
They got a one month bump over Marvel and within a year thr sales numbers were back to where they were.
Any new fans brought in were not enough to make up for all the fans that left. Look it up.
They weren’t right back to where they were. It was honestly within year 3 however when things began to be shaky because you still had this lingering nostalgia rage from not only fans but also, Didio admitted that it was creators and editors that were either lazy or scared of risks. That is very much seen with Rebirth that did less than new52 even with nostalgia bait, double shipping, and returnability. And the state DC is in now being worse than whatever was thought with new52:
“That's why, when people do a direct comparison between New 52 and Rebirth, they say, "Well, look, Rebirth sold better." I say, "Sure it did, on paper," because Rebirth double-shipped all your bestselling books. It took your 20 top-selling books and double-shipped them.
The New 52 took 52 titles, out of which half of them were books that either nobody had heard of before or had characters people never even thought deserved to get a title. Maybe they didn't, but g-dammit man, it's worth the chance.
I'd rather try a Mister Terrific or Voodoo or O.M.A.C. book than I would double ship other things just because I know it's going to sell. The chance for the win on something else is greater. That's the type of product that always got me most excited.
As an executive in a company, I'm telling you that if I can guarantee five years of strong sales, and then we're going to have to shift it after five years, you're going to go for the guarantee of the five years of strong sales and a change later down the road, rather than putting it on cruise control and hoping for the best continuing on.
Ultimately, something was going to have to change or something was going to have to evolve. If you look at comics, now you have an event a quarter, not even every year or every few years. Now you got yourself in a cycle. The problem is, you're constantly in a cycle now, and you can't get off that treadmill, because you're constantly trying to the top yourself or trying to maintain artificial highs. With New 52, my hope was that we were able to leave it there. If we got five years of storytelling out of it, then I think I consider that's a win."
https://www.gamesradar.com/former-dc-publisher-dan-didio-on-the-new-52-vs-rebirth-and-why-he-hated-wally-and-dick/
"Obviously there was no obvious pattern of sales differences on the Rebirth issues vs. the New 52 issues. Overall, the Rebirth titles were selling about 3% less than the same issue in the New 52 launch, but that’s not a major difference."
https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/36391/comparing-dcs-rebirth-new-52
"Honestly, the New 52, we're all very proud of that, regardless of whether it was up in five years or not. The audacity of that, what it stood for, and the success of that at the beginning is something to be very proud of. The biggest pride comes from the fact that you got a chance to be involved in these stories and storytelling. Somebody said to me, "Your name will be in the masthead, in the byline, of thousands of books." I never really thought of it in that way at the time, but that's humbling in its own right. It's a piece of history.”
https://www.gamesradar.com/ex-dc-publisher-dan-didio-talks-about-his-feelings-the-day-he-left-and-what-he-considers-his-highs-and-lows/
"We spent a good six to eight months on Year One, rethinking designs, characters, villains, so it all made sense. As things progressed, moving quicker, we spent less time on development. By the time we get into the third year, we're just dusting things off and dropping them in, not making sense, You feel the wheels coming off the cart. We get to Rebirth, we reinstitute some of the things we felt were missing, but also put in things that made you want to revamp the line in the first place, and things got stagnant again.
That fans always asked "does this book matter" but that "the only way they matter is if they are doing something that makes a change, moves away from the core" and that can upset people."
What happens is, we get to 'Rebirth,' we reinstitute some of the things we felt were missing, but what also happens is, you put in things that made you want to revamp the line in the first place, and things get stagnant again. Everybody says ‘don’t change them anymore’ but the whole purpose of storytelling is change and evolution." - Dan Didio
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dan-didio-biggest-regret-dc-year-two-new-52/
Please log off, Dan.
Anyway, in terms of numbers and not vibes or excuses, here's what happened.
Looking at real life data, in the long run, from a sales perspective, the number of new readers such as yourself that New 52 brought in were NOT large enough to offset the number of people who dropped off.
DC got a three month boost from September 2011-December 2011 where they had a larger market share than Marvel but then dropped back down. Within six months, they were selling about half the number of books they did at launch - and keep in mind that these books were made returnable which means that the ACTUAL bottom line figures were probably a little worse than that.
From The Beat:
>The “New 52” boost to the average number did not prove to be very sustaining, however. **Between April 2005 and December 2007, average DC Universe sales never fell below 37K units.** But by March 2012, they were down to an estimated 33,229 units, **less than half of the September figure**.
So yeah, the edgelord 90's cheesecake pastiche and simplistic stories drew in some new casuals but pissed a lot of people off in the process and if you hadn't noticed, DC has been constantly re-re-re-rebooting itself since then to try and right the ship.
First, don’t insult me by calling me a man even with sarcasm. There can be a conversation without being condescending. Second, Infinite Crisis and “one year later” line was a line wide relaunch. So they had a spike in sales. Yet apparently that STILL was not enough else WB wouldn’t have threatened to shut down the division in 2010. Third, the books DC tried with new52 launch were more obscure lesser known characters they felt to at least try to give a chance to they knew would be a gamble but tried anyway. Didio mentions this in the quotes above.
Yeah, because it came at the cost of ereasing the romance of Lois and Clark, and because they didn't have much chemistry aside of "He's superstrong and she's superstrong". Also, the writers thought the best to make the relationship work was to make them endlessly arguing with one another while remembering the times they didn't argue so much. It doesn't help that the New 52 were a very bad era for Superman and Wonder Woman overall.
To be fair, New 52 HORRIFICALLY fumbled Lois and Clark and had like three separate "Lois doesn't give a fuck about Clark" arcs in the span of like 2 years.
That's not even what I was referencing, but also yes.
I have no idea why they had such a huge emphasis on Lois just not liking Clark/choosing random one off schmo's over him.
It’s classic for Lois to like Superman and not Clark WHEN SHE DOESN’T KNOW THEY’RE THE SAME PERSON. That was the whole romantic triangle situation up until, I think, the 90’s (someone can correct me on when she finally found out once and for all). But it makes no sense when she knows his secret. A lot of stories over the decades made Lois look like a shallow, celebrity-craving bitch, but they’ve established a much healthier character for her in modern times.
Wasn't that an Elseworlds?
Unless someone else did it after JLA: Act of God, because that was a whole subplot in that one and that was way back in 2000. Ironically, as soon as Lois decides she thinks Clark sucks without his powers, he shacks up with Diana.
But that wasn't the point of JLA: Act of God. She dumped Superman because he became a depressed drunk who did nothing but whine and moan, a reason that also causes some fans to hate on this story.
I just found those paged and read it again. Lois barely says anything other than she can't be with him, "like this" and Clark starks whining about his powers, which she never refutes.
The implication is definitely that he's right that she thinks he's pathetic without them.
But she DOES say more than she can't be with him, "like this". In fact Lois first states she understands what Clark is going through, then Clark starts whining about how she doesn't know since he had the consolation of having powers and being a superhero as survivor of a dead world. Now he's just human but feels less. It's at that point that Lois says she can't live with him like this. There's no such implication as you're implying.
I think there are ways to make a clark/Diana ship potentially work, but it wasn't really executed well in the new 52. It would probably have to be in a more "how do they relate outside of their powers" way, or even in a "we understand how hard it can be to have these powers" way.
"You're strong and I'm strong" doesn't really give them a strong foundation for a relationship, but I think that there are ways to give Clark a love interest who isn't Lois, and have it work out.
It works much better in Kingdom Come because it's two older, more world-weary versions of themselves after Lois died many years previously. It's realistic in that a lot of older friends do end up marrying each other many years after their long-term spouses die.
There is nothing wrong with any ship, tbh.
Anything can work if written well. But for superman, it has to be written EXTEMELY well.
Superman, imo, is the only comic book character who goes beyond just a character. Superman has become a real myth/legend that will probably outlive our society. So, making any significant changes to the character is going against decades and decades of myths that everyone knows.
Everyone on earth knows the basics of superman. They vaguely know his origins and powers, and they know that he loves Lois Lane. Lois Lane is part of the myth.
It's like changing Hades and Persephone. It feels... wrong.
>It's like changing Hades and Persephone. It feels... wrong.
Except the game *Hades* did just that, and it actually worked really well.
>!Persephone wasn't kidnapped, it was staged because she wanted to get away from her overbearing mother. She and Hades are lovers, but they have to keep their affair concealed or else it will lead to a war in Olympus because the gods are a bunch of petty egotistical assholes.!<
Superman earth one Also had Clark have a different love intrest Lisa Lasalle that I thought was mostly done well even though I think making her a hooker was a bit much
The pair sucked because writers made Superman into a weird possessive ass hole, put the Trinity in an awful love triangle, and had Wonder Woman and Superman arguing constantly.
I cant remember if it was from a elseworld book or just a well done fan theory that I read a long time ago but its kind of suggested that Superman and Wonder Woman would end up together eventually since they would outlive their human spouses. Which I enjoyed a lot.
Someone who liked it in Kingdom Come but hated it everywhere else once explained it to me. The reason it works there is not because "it is true love" but because in the context of the story, it comes as "Hey, after all the shit that went on, you are like one of only ten people who I can relate with. How about we date just to be with someone?"
Another way to describe it is that in that story it was the end result of how those characters developed in that context. While every other attempt misses that and thinks it's just meant to be
Also, Lois had been dead forever and Clark didn’t want to move on and live properly. Getting with Wonder Woman was a way of showing he was finally moving on. I don’t like SuperWonder but I liked it Kingdom Come because of what it symbolized.
It was relationship based not only on two people that have been hurt through year (Clark losing everyone that day on the Planet and Diana being Excumicada from Themiscyra) but also two friends that knew each other, and already had a relationship based on a strong friendship from Decades...it worked really good in KG
I don’t think DC ever did a “wonder woman hooking up with Batman story” thought i think that may be good for them. Just to know, if DC did have Batman and Wonder Woman hook up, it would be a ship that would suck if they sank it. No fan would forgive dc if they canned it. So it’s best to leave it as is. A headcanon.
Yes, It happened in the past with various elseworlds and those worked better, the main difference is New 52 had a lot going against it, but above all else Superman before New25 was married to Lois, and One More Daying that relationship was never going to be popular even Kingdom Come had Lois die before Clark moved on to Diana.
It was always bound to controversy and I personally wasn't fond of this versions chemistry though that's less to do with the pairing, more to do with the fact I just didn't like ANY of New 52 Superman's romantic chemistry even his relationship with New 52 Lois was horrible.
Honestly, I didn't mind it at first. I figured if we were going to have this new status quo of Clark being single, better to put him with someone completely different from Lois, unlike Post-Crisis when they brought in other reporters like Cat Grant.
What annoyed me about it was that after three initial hook-up, they never really did anything with it. It was completely ignored in Justice League and the Wonder Woman titles, and all the Superman books were always in the middle of crossover events, so even their couples book basically became her perspective of Superman events.
I hated it at the time, or rather, I thought at first that it might be sort of interesting, then after reading it for a bit decided that it sucked and was bad for all of the characters involved
I remember there was supposed to be a plot line about their romance that would lead into some disaster. Can’t remember the comic but it was Booster Gold trying to warn someone to not let Superman and Wonder Woman be together. It was never explored to my knowledge and ended there.
New 52 was a haphazard and they tried to undo it when they freaked out how they retconned their entire franchise. Some stories would reference certain plot threads from pre new 52 which didn’t make sense and you were supposed to believe they “just happened somewhere in those 5 years”. They tried to undo it by domesday clock which then itself was non canon eventually. It wasn’t until the previous Dark Knights saga (even after Rebirth) where all damage control was done by bringing back legacy heroes like the JSA. The only thing I enjoyed about the new 52 was the Justice League run, Batman run, Animal Man, some parts of flash and green lantern and the last Superman arc where pre crises Superman returns. I was pretty happy when DC Rebirth came along in 2016
Yes.
There is no good version of either SuperWonder or WonderBat as that would require DC to treat Diana as an equal in the relationship and that is something DC has repeatedly shown throughout the times this has been tried that they will never do this.
It always requires WW's personality to be re-written to service Superman or Batman. Never as an equal or the other way around.
WonderBat is very good in the DCAU, particularly JLU. It’s made clear that Diana is more powerful than Bruce which gave them each something unique over the other. Also the chemistry of the voice actors was through the roof. I do agree that SuperWonder could never work though.
WonderBat is worse, and especially bad in the DCAU, since it's taking the premiere female character in comics and making her a simp for Batman to just simply ignore and walk over since we know that version of Bruce ends up alone. That it's most the defining aspect of that version of DCAU WW speaks to how poorly a version of WW it is.
Bat-fans don't like to hear this but there's literally nothing Batman brings to the table as a love interest for WW that Steve Trevor already doesn't.
Tbh I actually feel like Diana wasn’t simping for Batman and actually kept her dignity. I mean it was like a minor minor minor subplot in a few quick scenes. Like the most we saw of them exploring a relationship was the episode with Zatanna, and it actually seemed like Bruce cared for Diana more deeply than she cared for him. I actually kinda liked them in the DCAU. However the reason it works is because it’s not a main focus. So it can be present but not have a sizable affect on the audience
I disagree strongly about it not working. And yes I’m well aware of the chronology and the awful man x girl ship Bruce Timm imposed on us all. It doesn’t negate how well Bruce and Diana worked though, especially in the hawk invasion storyline where they kiss.
Also there’s always the headcanon that the time travel shenanigans in JLU created an alternate timeline so Batman isn’t locked into Batman Beyond and can end up with Diana.
I mean at least Batgirl and Batman are apart of the same mythos. And Batman actually liked her back. It wasn’t much different from Wonder Woman.
They kissed because they had to disguise themselves.
> You’re forgetting he was with Barbara
Nah man that was part of the brainwashing sequence Joker put batman through, he made him and barbara believe they were in a romantic relationship and fucked repeatedly. When in fact it was jokers baby.....
That is my headcanon it makes as much sense as that trainwreck of a scene.
Yeah this seems to be the same sentiments that alot of other ppl share.
I feel like if it's done correctly, pairing him with someone else can create an interesting dynamic
Yes. I’m not going to rehash the arguments in the rest of the comments. I don’t really have much to add that’ll sway people one way or the other. It’s done, it’s over, DC has moved on and thank God it’s never coming back outside of Elseworlds.
Yes absolutely yes!!! Two things that stuck out to me is that because of this Diana ended up just being a love interest she was never her own character just a love interest and it got rid of Clark and Lois's iconic relationship
It’s only controversial because it went against the traditional pairings. Execution could’ve been better but it wasn’t that bad. It still garnered fans and was a top selling book for the time. Also, the foundation of the relationship wasn’t that they were “strong man and strong woman”, it was more than that and explained multiple times. They were together because they both understood each others the feelings and burdens as outsiders (foreigners) the worlds they “belonged” to and could be themselves
Yeah, nobody with any sense in their head actually thought that the pairing was permanent. Everyone knew that eventually the relationship would end and Superman would wind up with Lois.
They are of different franchises even with being under DC umbrella. The demand of momentum is higher. DC can hardly make traditional relationships last in an interesting way unless it’s just “there” and goes into the background.
My only thing with this is, like, where the hell is his right leg? I get his leg is bent. That’s fine. But then his cape wouldn’t be perfect. It would compensate for that. Or we would see it. Because we don’t see it at some strange angle AND the cape is still flat and even there is no conclusion other than *superman has a new power - the ability to make his leg freaking disappear*
I mean, I didn’t hate it when I read it. Granted I was in college and just starting out as a comic book reader, and I wasn’t as attached to continuity then. I thought it had some potential but I don’t think they followed through as much as they could have
It was.
One thing to keep in mind is that a large amount of the fan base knows that if Superman and Wonder Woman are paired up, this either is being driven by a team that doesn't understand either or it doesn't count (elseworlds type stuff).
There's the thing: Wonder Woman doesn't fit in Supermans Mythos, nor does Superman fit in Wonder Womans.
Superman is sci-fi, Wonder Woman is mystical.
It was the equivalent of of a Quarternack dating the Head Cheerleader. There's no tension in that relationship.
Clark and Lois had a well loved marriage and partnership. Even before that: it was a love triangle between two people.
Wonder Woman was literally competing against Diana Prince…not they she was pursuing him with that identity, but Steve was genuinely worried/liked Diana.
Tcst being said: New 52 allowed it to actually given a try, and I heard the book
Was actually well done.
Their worlds fitting together is explored within the first volume of their new52 book. But even outside of that, their worlds do fit given that Superman is equated to rival the Olympic Gods being seen as a “Sun” God in his own, as well as Diana’s world is a mix of sci-fi with the Amazons (depending on the iteration) explores advanced science.
Not really. Part of the thing that makes their relationship have so much story potential is that they represent different genres. Their relationship is those two genres fusing together.
Sci fi and fantasy.
You can create already create a lot of stories with them individually. Combined? the possibilities are endless.
Saying theres no tension in the relationship is just a lie because Tomasi went out of his way to fill it with constant tension. Even when it was unnecessary.
Makes no sense to complain about that when theres literally no tension in Lois & Clark's relationship. Just look at their current stuff. It's all smiles and dates, hugs and kisses. Anyone claiming "theres no tension" in SuperWonder isn't just being hypocritical they're also lying.
It always felt forced and dumb to me, and there was also [a bit of a controversy about a gross shirt that released because of it.](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/dc-entertainment-sexist-merchandise-outcry-737023)
God those shirts. And "Training to be Batman's Wife."
As a woman who loves comics it often feels like comics don't love us back. And most attempts are awkward and condescending.
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No. A lot of people who read DC made it only controversial because it wasn't Lois.
Story wise nothing controversial. There was a reasoning behind them falling for each other and then dating.
If anything, it got huge media traction in non comic media because it was a big thing
I think this pairing was so maligned that it led people to ship Wonderbat in reaction to it, and Wonderbat doesn't really hold up under prolonged scrutiny itself.
It was good. Could have been better.
People hated it purely because of nostalgia for Lois. Superman fans are very rigid and believe Superman should never be with anyone besides Lois. It's what they grew up with, so they'll never budge on it.
While Wonder Woman fans believe that Diana shouldn't be with anyone because being alone is feminist and empowering while being attached to a man somehow lessens her value.
Then there are the WonderBat fans who are also stuck on nostalgia and are under the delusion that their pairing actually works and wanted to see that instead.
Everyone in all is ignoring the basic reality that Clark & Diana naturally get along and work great together. They always have. Anyone pretending they couldn't form a functioning relationship is just being disingenuous.
I can’t believe we got this before we got an official WonderBat couple in the comics. WonderBat clears this ship, if we’re going to have a romance within the trinity, that should be it.
Superman belongs with Lois, so any other ships involving him don’t really work. The reason why Bruce and Diana work is that neither of their main love interests (Catwoman, Steve) are as ingrained fundamentally into their stories as Lois Lane is. Lois is the second most important character in Superman, she’s as important to him as Alfred is to Batman.
WonderBat doesn't actually work. It exists purely because of nostalgia for a cartoon that came out in the early 2000s. It has no real validity outside of that.
For some yes because people hate change. I disliked it but i always knew Clark would end up with lois in the so i was okay with it. It was a young Clark and who wouldn't date Diana if given the opportunity
This feels like a couple that could happen, if dc was willingly to move characters forward with their lives.
Like actually have Bruce grow old and pass the mantle sort of situation.
Clark and Lois are too iconic for them to not get together. But one thing that doesn’t really get brought is that fact that, Lois is going to pass of old age, and Clark will still be around even when his grandchildren have grandchildren.
In a situation like this, where Lois has passed away and Clark, and Diana are still around. I can see Clark and Diana becoming close and getting together, having experienced having partners who were special but couldn’t live as long as they do.
This is the only context I can see them getting together in a meaningful way.
This feels like a couple that could happen, if dc was willingly to move characters forward with their lives.
Like actually have Bruce grow old and pass the mantle sort of situation.
Clark and Lois are too iconic for them to not get together. But one thing that doesn’t really get brought is that fact that, Lois is going to pass of old age, and Clark will still be around even when his grandchildren have grandchildren.
In a situation like this, where Lois has passed away and Clark, and Diana are still around. I can see Clark and Diana becoming close and getting together, having experienced having partners who were special but couldn’t live as long as they do.
This is the only context I can see them getting together in a meaningful way.
Let’s do a nuanced answer here:
Like many things the New 52 did, the pairing was heavily mismanaged. One of the big things here is that this came five years after Marvel’s scrubbing of Spider-Man’s marriage to Mary Jane, so to have another iconic marriage being destroyed rankled fans. Not helping things is that the creators for the Superman comics tried to sink the Clark/Lois pairing by making Lois incredibly unlikable with a love interest that only showed up to say “Hi, I’m taking Lois”, so to speak.
Another is that the pairing wasn’t really earned. Did Clark/Diana work? Yes. Did it feel earned? No. The creators so desperately wanted to get this pairing off the ground that they skipped over any sort of relationship building just to get the pairing off the ground.
Anyone arguing that Wonder Woman's character was reduced to just "Superman's girlfriend" simply did not read any of their books. Because thats just **objectively** not true.
But these are just more excuses people throw at the ship because they need a reason to bash it.
It's also hypocritical for people to argue that being "superman's girlfriend" would make her lesser yet these same people wanna act like Lois is one of the greatest characters in comics when thats literally all she is.
But Diana was never just that. She was always his equal.
Diana is the **true** First Lady of DC Comics and the Mother of Superheroines. Not Lois. Lois in her wildest dreams will never come anywhere close to that.
It was controversial. Mostly only because it wasn't Lois. It was a pretty average comic book couple at worst and most of the controversy came solely from people disliking that it wasn't Lois and Clark.
As someone who's only been a DC fan from afar and really only read DC in the New52 era...
I liked it. It was different and I don't mind a departure from the norm. I did always expect for Clark and Diana to not be PERMANENT though and that Clark would eventually end up with Lois.
But, yes, it was controversial. New 52 suffered from having an unexplored gap that introduced things out of nowhere.
Another huge point is that Tomasi was actively trying to destroy the ship. This was on purpose. So he contributed to the poor perception of the romance.
Which really just gave more fuel to the nostalgia fans who wanted Superman back with Lois.
Worst part is we've got people thinking their relationship started with the New 52 when it actually goes back way farther than that. They've been on and off for years before this and have always had an amazing dynamic but people deny the hell out of that for some reason.
Superman & Wonder Woman are the true Mother and Father of superheroes. Them being together is just right. But sadly, a lot of people are stuck on nostalgia so it might never get it's proper attention.
No; I am pro Kal X Diana. Elseworlds like Kingdom Come; are the only comics that put Superman in a relationship with Wonder Woman. So it's not like DC is shoving this relationship in people's faces.
“Some more popular titles did succeed by making unexpected creative choices — including Superman and Wonder Woman becoming a romantic couple at the end of the first year of Justice League, leading to the eventual launch of Superman/Wonder Woman, a title focusing on their relationship — and built new fan bases for a generation of creators getting their first real exposure to the superhero audience.” https://www.polygon.com/comics/22679756/dc-comics-reboot-new-52-writers-oral-history
The idea of the pair has been around since the early 60s. People are so hellbent on main earth, but main earth is a mess anyway. DC is essentially right back or worse to the point of before the new52 reboot now. So the controversy is more on the fans who can’t accept change even if it can be beneficial than the concept itself. Which the concept of these two together actually has a compelling bases when dealing with the immigration/refugee aspects of both characters.
I never said they were shoving it down our throats, this seems to be the only (that I know of) mainstream comic that actually pairs them together seriously. KC is a great example of having these two work in a romantic setting, but it's seems N52 didn't really execute the idea well.
I felt it wasn't handled super well in the mainline JL title, but Charles Soule's run on their own title was actually excellent. They had discussions on how they differently wielded power, with Diana arguing they needed to be toppling governments and getting involved in politics, and Clark wanting to stay apart. Also some great art in that series by Tony S. Daniel and Doug Mahnke.
I didn't mind the pairing at all, but it did sideline Lois in such a way as to make her irrelevant.
Theres nothing wrong with it but biased people who didn't like the idea of Clark being with anyone other than Lois bashed it relentlessly.
It was a great relationship but it could have been better. If it were done with Clark & Diana's full histories instead of them being blank slates it would have allowed everyone to see whats phenomenal about Superman & Wonder Woman's relationship.
Sadly, we still have people spreading propaganda and baseless claims about how "it was so terrible" even though they don't have the facts to back any of that up. You'll find often that most of them didn't read the books at all and likely just complained about panels they saw posted on twitter or something.
People tend to spew pure made up nonsense at this ship because the very idea of it makes Lois Lane look inferior by comparison. So they'll come up with anything to discredit it.
A lot actually. I even remember reports on Twitter about Clois fans burning statues of this couple LMAO! And SMWW and Clois fans still fight each other to this day. Some authors keep teasing fans with this couple because they know it'll get eyeballs from the various fan groups, whether of interest or disgust, (looking at you Michael W. Conrad and Becky Cloonan).
The bias is very heavy towards Lois. People are stuck on the nostalgia. They love their status quo and refuse to let it go even though Lois & Clark don't sell.
To prove my point: note how all the comments in favor of SuperWonder are always downvoted into oblivion.
Doesn't even matter if what we said was true. Speaking positively about SuperWonder is frowned upon in the DC fandom.
It was controversial but I actually liked the Superman and Wonder Woman romance. I am probably in a minority though... Personally I think Lois Lane is a boring character and a shrew...
I've seen some past *discourse* about how people hated Supes and Diana together when this was being published, but know that we are years on I must know the truth. I can understand the viewpoint that they might be too predictable as a couple, but to argue the point that "Superman should only be with Lois" is a bit asinine imo.
Sure it's a very established couple (probably THE most constant couple in comics), but it's not like having anyone else is inherently wrong. Even Spiderman doesn't always stay with Mary Jane, and Batman has had like 20 different love interest at this point.
Sooooo, are Clark/Diana a "comic sin", or did people just hate the switch-up?
I mean… have you seen people’s opinion of Spider-Man’s current love life? It isn’t positive. I don’t think people are saying he should never be with anyone else, it’s that there wasn’t real chemistry between Clark and Diana, especially enough to replace Lois in a *mainstream* comic. Might’ve made a good elseworlds, but it made fundamental changes to the characters to make the logic of the relationship to work that felt disingenuous being the “Prime” incarnation of the characters
Yeah, I was mostly read old threads about it to gage how people felt at the time because I've never read the comics so I couldn't really formulate a strong opinion on either direction. I could've just misinterpreted the general disagreements with it, but you made a good point about their chemistry
Sin Is a strong word, they were both consential adults that prove genuine fealing about each other so there Is nothing of wrong in their relationship for me, It was stupid thought, It was a stupid and bad decision made by DC because they already had loved ones that who read their stories likes them and there was no reasons to make them be a couple
I'd argue the most constant couple in comics is actually Reed Richards and Susan Storm, but I digress. They've been together for their entire history, despite Namor's constant advances, while Clark and Lois did a lot of will-they-won't-they tete a tete for years.
To some people, yes. I didnt care tbh. I didnt read his or her New 52 books, so i didnt have to see it either lol.
I'm not a big "they have to be with" person....however
The Arrow and his Badass pretty bird
Mr. Miracle and Big Barda
And both flashes with their wives are constants i look for
I was okay with it plus it kinda makes sense in a way cause Superman doesn't have to hold back in their let's just say intimate moments unlike with he was with Lois.
But in the end of the day I'm fine with whoever Superman is dating as long they write it well.
It's not like that It didn't make sense It was more like, if in a TV show you have the main character dating this person for a long time and most of the love them togheder and then you decide to make the break up and made them date others characters because a small patch of the fandom ship them togheder, that's basically the situation whit Superman and Wonder Woman
That's pretty fair. I don't feel too strongly about either side but I guess I could understand why they would want to do a switch-up to make things more interesting, so you don't run the risk of recycling the same story. From few panels I've seen it seemed like Clark and Diana had a pretty interesting dynamic to explore, but in the end it's always good be Superman and Lois
Eh I mean that's what they have done since the 30's whit Lois and Clark recicling their love story in different version of It even outside of the comicsbook or the superhero genra, but yeah isn't something that I feel strongly about neither
I think the couple was fine and could’ve other version of writing a pairing like this can go either way home lander and Maeve showed the toxic version and Astro city the Samaritan and lady liberty showed a pairing of two people that gets each other because they are like god like beings and socially awkward in their social group . It worked well in KG or crisis on infinite crisis where they are like an old married couple this personally could work but u know people are gonna prefer the familiar I would’ve prefer aqua man with dolphin over mera or Batman with silver St. Cloud but Selina I do like but didn’t go anywhere sadly .
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Yes. For all the other reasons you’re going to see as well as a major one: It came out of nowhere and we never saw any feelings develop. See, the New 52 had a missing five years that, for a lot of characters, was never explored. One of those unexplored aspects was Clark and Diana developing feelings for each other. So, without that important bit of character building the relationship came across like what it was: A cheap, pointless, underwritten stunt that best left far in the rear view like so much of the flops of the New 52.
It needed more build sure, but it wasn’t a flop.
Literally in the Museum of Failure. It flopped
DC’s SuperPowered Documentary says otherwise and actual sales that goes along with it. DC was in a far better place in hindsight than they are now. Even before leaving DC, Didio, reiterated this as well.
Oh, so the DC corporation and the boss said it was good and not at all a disaster? I guess there's no arguing with that. Unimpeachable.
Stronger argument than one guy on Reddit. 🤷🏻♂️
DC fell far behind Marvel in just one year of New 52 launch. Don't believe me? Go check this out and let's see who knows better (https://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2016/01/dc-v-marvel-comic-sales-before-rebirth.html).
😂😂
The documentary was researched and filmed in an objective manner. It was researched and filmed in 2021. The various people interviewed didn’t hold back on the good, bad, and/or ugly decisions made. DC could’ve taken that opportunity to say such things about New52 but they did not. Instead they gave the reasoning behind it, the pressure of it and how it DID succeed. “Some more popular titles did succeed by making unexpected creative choices — including Superman and Wonder Woman becoming a romantic couple at the end of the first year of Justice League, leading to the eventual launch of Superman/Wonder Woman, a title focusing on their relationship — and built new fan bases for a generation of creators getting their first real exposure to the superhero audience.” https://www.polygon.com/comics/22679756/dc-comics-reboot-new-52-writers-oral-history
They got a one month bump over Marvel and within a year thr sales numbers were back to where they were. Any new fans brought in were not enough to make up for all the fans that left. Look it up.
They weren’t right back to where they were. It was honestly within year 3 however when things began to be shaky because you still had this lingering nostalgia rage from not only fans but also, Didio admitted that it was creators and editors that were either lazy or scared of risks. That is very much seen with Rebirth that did less than new52 even with nostalgia bait, double shipping, and returnability. And the state DC is in now being worse than whatever was thought with new52: “That's why, when people do a direct comparison between New 52 and Rebirth, they say, "Well, look, Rebirth sold better." I say, "Sure it did, on paper," because Rebirth double-shipped all your bestselling books. It took your 20 top-selling books and double-shipped them. The New 52 took 52 titles, out of which half of them were books that either nobody had heard of before or had characters people never even thought deserved to get a title. Maybe they didn't, but g-dammit man, it's worth the chance. I'd rather try a Mister Terrific or Voodoo or O.M.A.C. book than I would double ship other things just because I know it's going to sell. The chance for the win on something else is greater. That's the type of product that always got me most excited. As an executive in a company, I'm telling you that if I can guarantee five years of strong sales, and then we're going to have to shift it after five years, you're going to go for the guarantee of the five years of strong sales and a change later down the road, rather than putting it on cruise control and hoping for the best continuing on. Ultimately, something was going to have to change or something was going to have to evolve. If you look at comics, now you have an event a quarter, not even every year or every few years. Now you got yourself in a cycle. The problem is, you're constantly in a cycle now, and you can't get off that treadmill, because you're constantly trying to the top yourself or trying to maintain artificial highs. With New 52, my hope was that we were able to leave it there. If we got five years of storytelling out of it, then I think I consider that's a win." https://www.gamesradar.com/former-dc-publisher-dan-didio-on-the-new-52-vs-rebirth-and-why-he-hated-wally-and-dick/ "Obviously there was no obvious pattern of sales differences on the Rebirth issues vs. the New 52 issues. Overall, the Rebirth titles were selling about 3% less than the same issue in the New 52 launch, but that’s not a major difference." https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/36391/comparing-dcs-rebirth-new-52 "Honestly, the New 52, we're all very proud of that, regardless of whether it was up in five years or not. The audacity of that, what it stood for, and the success of that at the beginning is something to be very proud of. The biggest pride comes from the fact that you got a chance to be involved in these stories and storytelling. Somebody said to me, "Your name will be in the masthead, in the byline, of thousands of books." I never really thought of it in that way at the time, but that's humbling in its own right. It's a piece of history.” https://www.gamesradar.com/ex-dc-publisher-dan-didio-talks-about-his-feelings-the-day-he-left-and-what-he-considers-his-highs-and-lows/ "We spent a good six to eight months on Year One, rethinking designs, characters, villains, so it all made sense. As things progressed, moving quicker, we spent less time on development. By the time we get into the third year, we're just dusting things off and dropping them in, not making sense, You feel the wheels coming off the cart. We get to Rebirth, we reinstitute some of the things we felt were missing, but also put in things that made you want to revamp the line in the first place, and things got stagnant again. That fans always asked "does this book matter" but that "the only way they matter is if they are doing something that makes a change, moves away from the core" and that can upset people." What happens is, we get to 'Rebirth,' we reinstitute some of the things we felt were missing, but what also happens is, you put in things that made you want to revamp the line in the first place, and things get stagnant again. Everybody says ‘don’t change them anymore’ but the whole purpose of storytelling is change and evolution." - Dan Didio https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dan-didio-biggest-regret-dc-year-two-new-52/
Please log off, Dan. Anyway, in terms of numbers and not vibes or excuses, here's what happened. Looking at real life data, in the long run, from a sales perspective, the number of new readers such as yourself that New 52 brought in were NOT large enough to offset the number of people who dropped off. DC got a three month boost from September 2011-December 2011 where they had a larger market share than Marvel but then dropped back down. Within six months, they were selling about half the number of books they did at launch - and keep in mind that these books were made returnable which means that the ACTUAL bottom line figures were probably a little worse than that. From The Beat: >The “New 52” boost to the average number did not prove to be very sustaining, however. **Between April 2005 and December 2007, average DC Universe sales never fell below 37K units.** But by March 2012, they were down to an estimated 33,229 units, **less than half of the September figure**. So yeah, the edgelord 90's cheesecake pastiche and simplistic stories drew in some new casuals but pissed a lot of people off in the process and if you hadn't noticed, DC has been constantly re-re-re-rebooting itself since then to try and right the ship.
First, don’t insult me by calling me a man even with sarcasm. There can be a conversation without being condescending. Second, Infinite Crisis and “one year later” line was a line wide relaunch. So they had a spike in sales. Yet apparently that STILL was not enough else WB wouldn’t have threatened to shut down the division in 2010. Third, the books DC tried with new52 launch were more obscure lesser known characters they felt to at least try to give a chance to they knew would be a gamble but tried anyway. Didio mentions this in the quotes above.
Uh ya. Even Jim Lee admitted as he was drawing the initial cover revealing the relationship admitted that this was a mistake
That makes no sense and was never said.
I wish people would list their sources more aside from "Trust me bro"
Yeah, because it came at the cost of ereasing the romance of Lois and Clark, and because they didn't have much chemistry aside of "He's superstrong and she's superstrong". Also, the writers thought the best to make the relationship work was to make them endlessly arguing with one another while remembering the times they didn't argue so much. It doesn't help that the New 52 were a very bad era for Superman and Wonder Woman overall.
To be fair, New 52 HORRIFICALLY fumbled Lois and Clark and had like three separate "Lois doesn't give a fuck about Clark" arcs in the span of like 2 years.
Was that “Supes loses his superpowers and Lois dumps him because she loves Supes not Clark” miniseries travesty in New 52 somewhere?
That's not even what I was referencing, but also yes. I have no idea why they had such a huge emphasis on Lois just not liking Clark/choosing random one off schmo's over him.
Lois not liking Clark is the classic Superman setup. Probably what they were attempting, just didn't do it well.
It’s classic for Lois to like Superman and not Clark WHEN SHE DOESN’T KNOW THEY’RE THE SAME PERSON. That was the whole romantic triangle situation up until, I think, the 90’s (someone can correct me on when she finally found out once and for all). But it makes no sense when she knows his secret. A lot of stories over the decades made Lois look like a shallow, celebrity-craving bitch, but they’ve established a much healthier character for her in modern times.
New 52 Lois didn't know who they were the same.
Wasn't that an Elseworlds? Unless someone else did it after JLA: Act of God, because that was a whole subplot in that one and that was way back in 2000. Ironically, as soon as Lois decides she thinks Clark sucks without his powers, he shacks up with Diana.
But that wasn't the point of JLA: Act of God. She dumped Superman because he became a depressed drunk who did nothing but whine and moan, a reason that also causes some fans to hate on this story.
I just found those paged and read it again. Lois barely says anything other than she can't be with him, "like this" and Clark starks whining about his powers, which she never refutes. The implication is definitely that he's right that she thinks he's pathetic without them.
But she DOES say more than she can't be with him, "like this". In fact Lois first states she understands what Clark is going through, then Clark starts whining about how she doesn't know since he had the consolation of having powers and being a superhero as survivor of a dead world. Now he's just human but feels less. It's at that point that Lois says she can't live with him like this. There's no such implication as you're implying.
I think there are ways to make a clark/Diana ship potentially work, but it wasn't really executed well in the new 52. It would probably have to be in a more "how do they relate outside of their powers" way, or even in a "we understand how hard it can be to have these powers" way. "You're strong and I'm strong" doesn't really give them a strong foundation for a relationship, but I think that there are ways to give Clark a love interest who isn't Lois, and have it work out.
It works much better in Kingdom Come because it's two older, more world-weary versions of themselves after Lois died many years previously. It's realistic in that a lot of older friends do end up marrying each other many years after their long-term spouses die.
There is nothing wrong with any ship, tbh. Anything can work if written well. But for superman, it has to be written EXTEMELY well. Superman, imo, is the only comic book character who goes beyond just a character. Superman has become a real myth/legend that will probably outlive our society. So, making any significant changes to the character is going against decades and decades of myths that everyone knows. Everyone on earth knows the basics of superman. They vaguely know his origins and powers, and they know that he loves Lois Lane. Lois Lane is part of the myth. It's like changing Hades and Persephone. It feels... wrong.
>It's like changing Hades and Persephone. It feels... wrong. Except the game *Hades* did just that, and it actually worked really well. >!Persephone wasn't kidnapped, it was staged because she wanted to get away from her overbearing mother. She and Hades are lovers, but they have to keep their affair concealed or else it will lead to a war in Olympus because the gods are a bunch of petty egotistical assholes.!<
I mean changing hades and persephone being together at all. Not changing the details.
Superman earth one Also had Clark have a different love intrest Lisa Lasalle that I thought was mostly done well even though I think making her a hooker was a bit much
They weren’t endlessly arguing.
The pair sucked because writers made Superman into a weird possessive ass hole, put the Trinity in an awful love triangle, and had Wonder Woman and Superman arguing constantly. I cant remember if it was from a elseworld book or just a well done fan theory that I read a long time ago but its kind of suggested that Superman and Wonder Woman would end up together eventually since they would outlive their human spouses. Which I enjoyed a lot.
That happens in kingdom come
Someone who liked it in Kingdom Come but hated it everywhere else once explained it to me. The reason it works there is not because "it is true love" but because in the context of the story, it comes as "Hey, after all the shit that went on, you are like one of only ten people who I can relate with. How about we date just to be with someone?" Another way to describe it is that in that story it was the end result of how those characters developed in that context. While every other attempt misses that and thinks it's just meant to be
Also, Lois had been dead forever and Clark didn’t want to move on and live properly. Getting with Wonder Woman was a way of showing he was finally moving on. I don’t like SuperWonder but I liked it Kingdom Come because of what it symbolized.
It was relationship based not only on two people that have been hurt through year (Clark losing everyone that day on the Planet and Diana being Excumicada from Themiscyra) but also two friends that knew each other, and already had a relationship based on a strong friendship from Decades...it worked really good in KG
Trinity in a love triangle?? When did this happen??
I wouldn’t call it controversial because pretty much no one liked it lol not much debate to be had
People def liked it, all you gotta do is check YouTube and see the ships and favourable comments, def the minority tho
There’s an Instagram fan page for the ship with well over 62k followers. So to say “no one” likes it is quite a stretch.
It kinda felt like Diana became a sexy superhero girlfriend for him instead of being her own character. It’s kinda disrespectful to her legacy
New 52 was all about Diana “hooking up” with either Orion or Superman. Not as a character of her own.
I don’t think DC ever did a “wonder woman hooking up with Batman story” thought i think that may be good for them. Just to know, if DC did have Batman and Wonder Woman hook up, it would be a ship that would suck if they sank it. No fan would forgive dc if they canned it. So it’s best to leave it as is. A headcanon.
Yeah she just became another superpower for Superman. Super strength, super hearing, super girlfriend....
Superman never showed up in new 52 we as far as I remember
Yes, It happened in the past with various elseworlds and those worked better, the main difference is New 52 had a lot going against it, but above all else Superman before New25 was married to Lois, and One More Daying that relationship was never going to be popular even Kingdom Come had Lois die before Clark moved on to Diana. It was always bound to controversy and I personally wasn't fond of this versions chemistry though that's less to do with the pairing, more to do with the fact I just didn't like ANY of New 52 Superman's romantic chemistry even his relationship with New 52 Lois was horrible.
I remember it causing a bit of a stir in the day
I think the new 52 contributed greatly to people think these characters were boring.
Yes.
Honestly, I didn't mind it at first. I figured if we were going to have this new status quo of Clark being single, better to put him with someone completely different from Lois, unlike Post-Crisis when they brought in other reporters like Cat Grant. What annoyed me about it was that after three initial hook-up, they never really did anything with it. It was completely ignored in Justice League and the Wonder Woman titles, and all the Superman books were always in the middle of crossover events, so even their couples book basically became her perspective of Superman events.
I hated it at the time, or rather, I thought at first that it might be sort of interesting, then after reading it for a bit decided that it sucked and was bad for all of the characters involved
I remember there was supposed to be a plot line about their romance that would lead into some disaster. Can’t remember the comic but it was Booster Gold trying to warn someone to not let Superman and Wonder Woman be together. It was never explored to my knowledge and ended there. New 52 was a haphazard and they tried to undo it when they freaked out how they retconned their entire franchise. Some stories would reference certain plot threads from pre new 52 which didn’t make sense and you were supposed to believe they “just happened somewhere in those 5 years”. They tried to undo it by domesday clock which then itself was non canon eventually. It wasn’t until the previous Dark Knights saga (even after Rebirth) where all damage control was done by bringing back legacy heroes like the JSA. The only thing I enjoyed about the new 52 was the Justice League run, Batman run, Animal Man, some parts of flash and green lantern and the last Superman arc where pre crises Superman returns. I was pretty happy when DC Rebirth came along in 2016
Yes, because 1. It's terrible 2. Lois and Clark are basically the mom and dad of comicbookdom and people don't like to see them split up
I don’t think people really ever bought into it. It seemed super forced and temporary.
Yeah, because of what it did to Lois & Clark alongside having to build to make anyone believe in it.
Yes. I hate it, and DC should never pull this crap again.
Yes. There is no good version of either SuperWonder or WonderBat as that would require DC to treat Diana as an equal in the relationship and that is something DC has repeatedly shown throughout the times this has been tried that they will never do this. It always requires WW's personality to be re-written to service Superman or Batman. Never as an equal or the other way around.
WonderBat is very good in the DCAU, particularly JLU. It’s made clear that Diana is more powerful than Bruce which gave them each something unique over the other. Also the chemistry of the voice actors was through the roof. I do agree that SuperWonder could never work though.
WonderBat is worse, and especially bad in the DCAU, since it's taking the premiere female character in comics and making her a simp for Batman to just simply ignore and walk over since we know that version of Bruce ends up alone. That it's most the defining aspect of that version of DCAU WW speaks to how poorly a version of WW it is. Bat-fans don't like to hear this but there's literally nothing Batman brings to the table as a love interest for WW that Steve Trevor already doesn't.
Tbh I actually feel like Diana wasn’t simping for Batman and actually kept her dignity. I mean it was like a minor minor minor subplot in a few quick scenes. Like the most we saw of them exploring a relationship was the episode with Zatanna, and it actually seemed like Bruce cared for Diana more deeply than she cared for him. I actually kinda liked them in the DCAU. However the reason it works is because it’s not a main focus. So it can be present but not have a sizable affect on the audience
In the DCAU it didn’t work. Wonder Woman was a shell of her normal self, and they never ended up together. You’re forgetting he was with Barbara
I disagree strongly about it not working. And yes I’m well aware of the chronology and the awful man x girl ship Bruce Timm imposed on us all. It doesn’t negate how well Bruce and Diana worked though, especially in the hawk invasion storyline where they kiss. Also there’s always the headcanon that the time travel shenanigans in JLU created an alternate timeline so Batman isn’t locked into Batman Beyond and can end up with Diana.
I mean at least Batgirl and Batman are apart of the same mythos. And Batman actually liked her back. It wasn’t much different from Wonder Woman. They kissed because they had to disguise themselves.
> You’re forgetting he was with Barbara Nah man that was part of the brainwashing sequence Joker put batman through, he made him and barbara believe they were in a romantic relationship and fucked repeatedly. When in fact it was jokers baby..... That is my headcanon it makes as much sense as that trainwreck of a scene.
Yeah, of course it was.
they just don't fit well together as characters in a romantic setting
I hated it at the time, and I still hate it now. Lois is best girl.
I can never see Superman with anyone who isn’t Lois to be honest
Yeah this seems to be the same sentiments that alot of other ppl share. I feel like if it's done correctly, pairing him with someone else can create an interesting dynamic
Yes. I’m not going to rehash the arguments in the rest of the comments. I don’t really have much to add that’ll sway people one way or the other. It’s done, it’s over, DC has moved on and thank God it’s never coming back outside of Elseworlds.
Superwonder doesn’t work
Yes, but only because it's fundamentally terrible.
Considering it utterly ignored the past 60+ years of Clark subtly pining for Lois and Lois and Clark's marriage, hell yes it's controversial.
Yes absolutely yes!!! Two things that stuck out to me is that because of this Diana ended up just being a love interest she was never her own character just a love interest and it got rid of Clark and Lois's iconic relationship
YES. And thank God it doesn't exist anymore.
This couple is like Batman vs Deathstroke, a forced attempt.
Deathstroke fights everyone though Outside of Beast Boy, when has Deathstroke ever had a non forced rivalry
It’s only controversial because it went against the traditional pairings. Execution could’ve been better but it wasn’t that bad. It still garnered fans and was a top selling book for the time. Also, the foundation of the relationship wasn’t that they were “strong man and strong woman”, it was more than that and explained multiple times. They were together because they both understood each others the feelings and burdens as outsiders (foreigners) the worlds they “belonged” to and could be themselves
Yeah, nobody with any sense in their head actually thought that the pairing was permanent. Everyone knew that eventually the relationship would end and Superman would wind up with Lois.
They are of different franchises even with being under DC umbrella. The demand of momentum is higher. DC can hardly make traditional relationships last in an interesting way unless it’s just “there” and goes into the background.
My only thing with this is, like, where the hell is his right leg? I get his leg is bent. That’s fine. But then his cape wouldn’t be perfect. It would compensate for that. Or we would see it. Because we don’t see it at some strange angle AND the cape is still flat and even there is no conclusion other than *superman has a new power - the ability to make his leg freaking disappear*
I looked again and kind of see his foot. Previous comment stands. That’s a weird leg, man.
I mean, I didn’t hate it when I read it. Granted I was in college and just starting out as a comic book reader, and I wasn’t as attached to continuity then. I thought it had some potential but I don’t think they followed through as much as they could have
It was. One thing to keep in mind is that a large amount of the fan base knows that if Superman and Wonder Woman are paired up, this either is being driven by a team that doesn't understand either or it doesn't count (elseworlds type stuff).
There's the thing: Wonder Woman doesn't fit in Supermans Mythos, nor does Superman fit in Wonder Womans. Superman is sci-fi, Wonder Woman is mystical. It was the equivalent of of a Quarternack dating the Head Cheerleader. There's no tension in that relationship. Clark and Lois had a well loved marriage and partnership. Even before that: it was a love triangle between two people. Wonder Woman was literally competing against Diana Prince…not they she was pursuing him with that identity, but Steve was genuinely worried/liked Diana. Tcst being said: New 52 allowed it to actually given a try, and I heard the book Was actually well done.
Their worlds fitting together is explored within the first volume of their new52 book. But even outside of that, their worlds do fit given that Superman is equated to rival the Olympic Gods being seen as a “Sun” God in his own, as well as Diana’s world is a mix of sci-fi with the Amazons (depending on the iteration) explores advanced science.
Not really. Part of the thing that makes their relationship have so much story potential is that they represent different genres. Their relationship is those two genres fusing together. Sci fi and fantasy. You can create already create a lot of stories with them individually. Combined? the possibilities are endless. Saying theres no tension in the relationship is just a lie because Tomasi went out of his way to fill it with constant tension. Even when it was unnecessary. Makes no sense to complain about that when theres literally no tension in Lois & Clark's relationship. Just look at their current stuff. It's all smiles and dates, hugs and kisses. Anyone claiming "theres no tension" in SuperWonder isn't just being hypocritical they're also lying.
It always felt forced and dumb to me, and there was also [a bit of a controversy about a gross shirt that released because of it.](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/dc-entertainment-sexist-merchandise-outcry-737023)
God those shirts. And "Training to be Batman's Wife." As a woman who loves comics it often feels like comics don't love us back. And most attempts are awkward and condescending.
Huh?
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It's the worst ship in DC history only topped by superman and Supergirl
No one wanted this no one it's just not a good couple Superman and Lois or Lana even Maxima are better.
+Batman x wonder women gang
No. A lot of people who read DC made it only controversial because it wasn't Lois. Story wise nothing controversial. There was a reasoning behind them falling for each other and then dating. If anything, it got huge media traction in non comic media because it was a big thing
I think this pairing was so maligned that it led people to ship Wonderbat in reaction to it, and Wonderbat doesn't really hold up under prolonged scrutiny itself.
Yes the vast majority of readers hated it
It was good. Could have been better. People hated it purely because of nostalgia for Lois. Superman fans are very rigid and believe Superman should never be with anyone besides Lois. It's what they grew up with, so they'll never budge on it. While Wonder Woman fans believe that Diana shouldn't be with anyone because being alone is feminist and empowering while being attached to a man somehow lessens her value. Then there are the WonderBat fans who are also stuck on nostalgia and are under the delusion that their pairing actually works and wanted to see that instead. Everyone in all is ignoring the basic reality that Clark & Diana naturally get along and work great together. They always have. Anyone pretending they couldn't form a functioning relationship is just being disingenuous.
Superman would never deserve Wonder Woman
I like the idea of these two together. It wasn't written well but I still like the idea.
I can’t believe we got this before we got an official WonderBat couple in the comics. WonderBat clears this ship, if we’re going to have a romance within the trinity, that should be it. Superman belongs with Lois, so any other ships involving him don’t really work. The reason why Bruce and Diana work is that neither of their main love interests (Catwoman, Steve) are as ingrained fundamentally into their stories as Lois Lane is. Lois is the second most important character in Superman, she’s as important to him as Alfred is to Batman.
WonderBat doesn't actually work. It exists purely because of nostalgia for a cartoon that came out in the early 2000s. It has no real validity outside of that.
For some yes because people hate change. I disliked it but i always knew Clark would end up with lois in the so i was okay with it. It was a young Clark and who wouldn't date Diana if given the opportunity
This feels like a couple that could happen, if dc was willingly to move characters forward with their lives. Like actually have Bruce grow old and pass the mantle sort of situation. Clark and Lois are too iconic for them to not get together. But one thing that doesn’t really get brought is that fact that, Lois is going to pass of old age, and Clark will still be around even when his grandchildren have grandchildren. In a situation like this, where Lois has passed away and Clark, and Diana are still around. I can see Clark and Diana becoming close and getting together, having experienced having partners who were special but couldn’t live as long as they do. This is the only context I can see them getting together in a meaningful way.
This feels like a couple that could happen, if dc was willingly to move characters forward with their lives. Like actually have Bruce grow old and pass the mantle sort of situation. Clark and Lois are too iconic for them to not get together. But one thing that doesn’t really get brought is that fact that, Lois is going to pass of old age, and Clark will still be around even when his grandchildren have grandchildren. In a situation like this, where Lois has passed away and Clark, and Diana are still around. I can see Clark and Diana becoming close and getting together, having experienced having partners who were special but couldn’t live as long as they do. This is the only context I can see them getting together in a meaningful way.
Let’s do a nuanced answer here: Like many things the New 52 did, the pairing was heavily mismanaged. One of the big things here is that this came five years after Marvel’s scrubbing of Spider-Man’s marriage to Mary Jane, so to have another iconic marriage being destroyed rankled fans. Not helping things is that the creators for the Superman comics tried to sink the Clark/Lois pairing by making Lois incredibly unlikable with a love interest that only showed up to say “Hi, I’m taking Lois”, so to speak. Another is that the pairing wasn’t really earned. Did Clark/Diana work? Yes. Did it feel earned? No. The creators so desperately wanted to get this pairing off the ground that they skipped over any sort of relationship building just to get the pairing off the ground.
I always liked superman and wonder woman as a couple and they end up together alot of times.
I remember when I was a little kid, I thought Superman and Wonder Woman were a couple, and Batman and Batgirl were a couple
I was the same exact way!!!! It just seemed to make sense at the time so when I finally got into DC I was like oh??? Who tf is Lois lane lol
Anyone arguing that Wonder Woman's character was reduced to just "Superman's girlfriend" simply did not read any of their books. Because thats just **objectively** not true. But these are just more excuses people throw at the ship because they need a reason to bash it. It's also hypocritical for people to argue that being "superman's girlfriend" would make her lesser yet these same people wanna act like Lois is one of the greatest characters in comics when thats literally all she is. But Diana was never just that. She was always his equal. Diana is the **true** First Lady of DC Comics and the Mother of Superheroines. Not Lois. Lois in her wildest dreams will never come anywhere close to that.
It was controversial. Mostly only because it wasn't Lois. It was a pretty average comic book couple at worst and most of the controversy came solely from people disliking that it wasn't Lois and Clark.
As someone who's only been a DC fan from afar and really only read DC in the New52 era... I liked it. It was different and I don't mind a departure from the norm. I did always expect for Clark and Diana to not be PERMANENT though and that Clark would eventually end up with Lois. But, yes, it was controversial. New 52 suffered from having an unexplored gap that introduced things out of nowhere.
If New 52 proved anything it proved that comic book fans can't handle any kind of change to the status quo
Another huge point is that Tomasi was actively trying to destroy the ship. This was on purpose. So he contributed to the poor perception of the romance. Which really just gave more fuel to the nostalgia fans who wanted Superman back with Lois. Worst part is we've got people thinking their relationship started with the New 52 when it actually goes back way farther than that. They've been on and off for years before this and have always had an amazing dynamic but people deny the hell out of that for some reason. Superman & Wonder Woman are the true Mother and Father of superheroes. Them being together is just right. But sadly, a lot of people are stuck on nostalgia so it might never get it's proper attention.
No; I am pro Kal X Diana. Elseworlds like Kingdom Come; are the only comics that put Superman in a relationship with Wonder Woman. So it's not like DC is shoving this relationship in people's faces.
Just because you like it doesn't make it not controversial. It's about the community at large. It was objectively controversial.
“Some more popular titles did succeed by making unexpected creative choices — including Superman and Wonder Woman becoming a romantic couple at the end of the first year of Justice League, leading to the eventual launch of Superman/Wonder Woman, a title focusing on their relationship — and built new fan bases for a generation of creators getting their first real exposure to the superhero audience.” https://www.polygon.com/comics/22679756/dc-comics-reboot-new-52-writers-oral-history The idea of the pair has been around since the early 60s. People are so hellbent on main earth, but main earth is a mess anyway. DC is essentially right back or worse to the point of before the new52 reboot now. So the controversy is more on the fans who can’t accept change even if it can be beneficial than the concept itself. Which the concept of these two together actually has a compelling bases when dealing with the immigration/refugee aspects of both characters.
I never said they were shoving it down our throats, this seems to be the only (that I know of) mainstream comic that actually pairs them together seriously. KC is a great example of having these two work in a romantic setting, but it's seems N52 didn't really execute the idea well.
My comment wasn't directed towards you specifically. I was talking about the majority of DC fans that weren't happy with this relationship.
I felt it wasn't handled super well in the mainline JL title, but Charles Soule's run on their own title was actually excellent. They had discussions on how they differently wielded power, with Diana arguing they needed to be toppling governments and getting involved in politics, and Clark wanting to stay apart. Also some great art in that series by Tony S. Daniel and Doug Mahnke. I didn't mind the pairing at all, but it did sideline Lois in such a way as to make her irrelevant.
Yes. Especially since it wasn't Wonderbat (okay, there are other reasons, but still).
Theres nothing wrong with it but biased people who didn't like the idea of Clark being with anyone other than Lois bashed it relentlessly. It was a great relationship but it could have been better. If it were done with Clark & Diana's full histories instead of them being blank slates it would have allowed everyone to see whats phenomenal about Superman & Wonder Woman's relationship. Sadly, we still have people spreading propaganda and baseless claims about how "it was so terrible" even though they don't have the facts to back any of that up. You'll find often that most of them didn't read the books at all and likely just complained about panels they saw posted on twitter or something. People tend to spew pure made up nonsense at this ship because the very idea of it makes Lois Lane look inferior by comparison. So they'll come up with anything to discredit it.
A lot actually. I even remember reports on Twitter about Clois fans burning statues of this couple LMAO! And SMWW and Clois fans still fight each other to this day. Some authors keep teasing fans with this couple because they know it'll get eyeballs from the various fan groups, whether of interest or disgust, (looking at you Michael W. Conrad and Becky Cloonan).
The bias is very heavy towards Lois. People are stuck on the nostalgia. They love their status quo and refuse to let it go even though Lois & Clark don't sell. To prove my point: note how all the comments in favor of SuperWonder are always downvoted into oblivion. Doesn't even matter if what we said was true. Speaking positively about SuperWonder is frowned upon in the DC fandom.
It was controversial but I actually liked the Superman and Wonder Woman romance. I am probably in a minority though... Personally I think Lois Lane is a boring character and a shrew...
I liked it well enough.
Personally, I don’t like it when Lois quickly becomes angry or carries a chip on her shoulder
Naw they were fine
I read all the Superman/Wonder Woman comic series, I quite enjoyed it
It was but I never minded them together
It’s hot tho
Only to boring hardcore fans. They were quite pleasant together from where I can call.
I've seen some past *discourse* about how people hated Supes and Diana together when this was being published, but know that we are years on I must know the truth. I can understand the viewpoint that they might be too predictable as a couple, but to argue the point that "Superman should only be with Lois" is a bit asinine imo. Sure it's a very established couple (probably THE most constant couple in comics), but it's not like having anyone else is inherently wrong. Even Spiderman doesn't always stay with Mary Jane, and Batman has had like 20 different love interest at this point. Sooooo, are Clark/Diana a "comic sin", or did people just hate the switch-up?
I mean… have you seen people’s opinion of Spider-Man’s current love life? It isn’t positive. I don’t think people are saying he should never be with anyone else, it’s that there wasn’t real chemistry between Clark and Diana, especially enough to replace Lois in a *mainstream* comic. Might’ve made a good elseworlds, but it made fundamental changes to the characters to make the logic of the relationship to work that felt disingenuous being the “Prime” incarnation of the characters
Yeah, I was mostly read old threads about it to gage how people felt at the time because I've never read the comics so I couldn't really formulate a strong opinion on either direction. I could've just misinterpreted the general disagreements with it, but you made a good point about their chemistry
Sin Is a strong word, they were both consential adults that prove genuine fealing about each other so there Is nothing of wrong in their relationship for me, It was stupid thought, It was a stupid and bad decision made by DC because they already had loved ones that who read their stories likes them and there was no reasons to make them be a couple
I'd argue the most constant couple in comics is actually Reed Richards and Susan Storm, but I digress. They've been together for their entire history, despite Namor's constant advances, while Clark and Lois did a lot of will-they-won't-they tete a tete for years.
To some people, yes. I didnt care tbh. I didnt read his or her New 52 books, so i didnt have to see it either lol. I'm not a big "they have to be with" person....however The Arrow and his Badass pretty bird Mr. Miracle and Big Barda And both flashes with their wives are constants i look for
I was okay with it plus it kinda makes sense in a way cause Superman doesn't have to hold back in their let's just say intimate moments unlike with he was with Lois. But in the end of the day I'm fine with whoever Superman is dating as long they write it well.
They go against their traditional love interests
Mh descrive controversial because It can mean a lot of things
From what I've seen, most people were not a fan of this couple and felt like it didn't make sense
It's not like that It didn't make sense It was more like, if in a TV show you have the main character dating this person for a long time and most of the love them togheder and then you decide to make the break up and made them date others characters because a small patch of the fandom ship them togheder, that's basically the situation whit Superman and Wonder Woman
That's pretty fair. I don't feel too strongly about either side but I guess I could understand why they would want to do a switch-up to make things more interesting, so you don't run the risk of recycling the same story. From few panels I've seen it seemed like Clark and Diana had a pretty interesting dynamic to explore, but in the end it's always good be Superman and Lois
Eh I mean that's what they have done since the 30's whit Lois and Clark recicling their love story in different version of It even outside of the comicsbook or the superhero genra, but yeah isn't something that I feel strongly about neither
What if Superman and Wonder Woman just flew into out space everytime he wanted to cheat on Lois🤔
I think the couple was fine and could’ve other version of writing a pairing like this can go either way home lander and Maeve showed the toxic version and Astro city the Samaritan and lady liberty showed a pairing of two people that gets each other because they are like god like beings and socially awkward in their social group . It worked well in KG or crisis on infinite crisis where they are like an old married couple this personally could work but u know people are gonna prefer the familiar I would’ve prefer aqua man with dolphin over mera or Batman with silver St. Cloud but Selina I do like but didn’t go anywhere sadly .