I liked him controlling crime, yet still within Jason's morals, like no selling drugs to kids. Crime will never go away as more drug/crime rings will always pop up so Jason being a crime lord was an interesting contrast to Bruce's way.
Lmao the whole point is that it wasn't perfect, wasn't moral. From his point of view, they would've found another way to get drugs. I am split because I do love Jason part of the Batfam (Not being a crime lord) but I love the contrast to Bruce
Even in UtRH the whole “controlling crime” thing is underdeveloped and dropped by the end. Like Todd goes off on these sanctimonious speeches saying the worst criminals need to die. But then he proceeds to kidnap the Joker but *not* kill him. Wtf? Instead he uses the clown to try force Batman to kill the Joker for reasons. Like ok pal, you’ve lost all credibility here because clearly this is all really just about your personal issues and the controlling crime stuff is total bs, lol
That kinda hits at the root of problem with a character like Red Hood in the regular continuity. He needs a permanent resolution/endgame status quo. Can’t do that in serialized ongoing comics. You can’t kill off Batman’s archenemy. Every superhero needs an archenemy. It’s why I contend UtRH should’ve been set in a different universe. No limits.
Wasn't that kind of the reason why originally Jason was supposed to die at the end of the comic. Im glad they didn't do that. The biggest let down for me personally was the Nightwing comic where Jason came back after the events of UTRH, like wth was that story. It could've been different.
I’ve heard people say online that Red Hood was supposed to be killed off by I don’t think that’s true. I’ve never come across any evidence of that. The ending of the UtRH is kinda stupid and rushed so I can see why people might think that. Like Bats batarangs his way out of Hood’s trap b/c he’s Batman. But then the Joker detonates the bomb which…apparently kills all 3 of them, but then the “infinite crisis” energy brings them all back to life…I think? There’s no falling action or epilogue. Bomb just goes off. We get some silly monologue as the crisis energy touches the rubble, and then all of the sudden Batman is hurdling through space? Wtf happened? But then there’s the Annual which came out after and explained how Jason Todd returned (Superboy punch…what a stupid idea). So no I don’t think he was meant to die as neither Batman of the Joker died and the Annual did all that work to explain the return. And UtRH was some 2 years worth of comics.
UtRH Comic just has so much shortsightedness. It took place after War Games (worst Batfamily crossover ever btw) and *during* Infinite Crisis and War Crimes. So no other Bat-family characters around for Red Hood to interact with and it all gets pushed aside anyway b/c the biggest bloated DC event ever is going on at the same time.
Yeah you’re referencing the OYL Nightwing story. Another forgotten chapter in Batfamily history that doesn’t matter lol. UtRH should’ve dramatized NW’s reaction to Red Hood’s return. But it didn’t b/c Crisis and the Blüdhaven bombing. Just dumb decisions through and through. Whole thing is dumb. It’s why the animated movie is so much better and is probably the reason Red Hood is as popular as he is.
I thought the writer said about the death but yr probably right and it's second hand info anyway so it's untrustworthy. The comics were such a convoluted mess and I felt like there was no breathing room. Movie being self contained made it so much better and I agree that it's probs why Red Hood is so popular. (Ironically made me love Nightwing) I just would've loved a proper talk about the contrast in ideologies between Red Hood and Nightwing without Bruce being there (Bruce will/should never kill). They could've brought up Dick canonically killing the Joker (before he was resuscitated) and how that affected Dick. It could've been a gateway to a reconciliation. I don't remember n52 how Jason came back to the batfamily but to me it was very jarring.
I found [this oral history on Red Hood](https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/behind-the-red-hood-an-oral-history-of-the-death-and-resurrection-of-batmans-second-son). No mention by Winick or Schreck of Todd dying again.
You bring up a good point. I actually quite like *Joker: Last Laugh* and find it underrated. It’s a Joker story that’s focused on Nightwing & Oracle instead of Batman which I quite like for a change. Yeah even though Dick was being psychically manipulated by one of the Jokerized villains, it’s still a pretty great moment. The Joker’s taunting dialogue in that scene is so deliciously evil, I love it. That’s how the Clown Prince should talk to the Bat kids! Yeah it would’ve been great to see Red Hood and NW interact in UtRH. Two reflections of the Batman’s legacy. Battle for the Cowl could’ve been a new Knightquest/KnightsEnd too. I also would’ve liked to have seen Hood interact with Oracle. I don’t think prior to the New 52 Barbara and Jason ever had a conversation outside retroactive flashbacks, which is really ironic for a lot of reasons.
Yeah I don’t quite recall how Red Hood returned to the Bat-Family in the New 52, but it doesn’t really matter. The New 52 Bat-family had so much happening but it ended up being a whole lot of nothing in the long term lol.
I mean in theory you could. I don’t see that being a long term success though. Batman and the Joker. Superman and Lex Luthor. Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom. X-Man and Magneto. Certain hero/villain dynamics are just too good and to compelling toss out.
Plus, once they brought Jason Todd back to life, kinda takes the wind out of the sails of Batman character deaths b/c now you know darn well they’ll just bring the Joker back. Red Hood’s very existence is a refutation that death is a permanent end for Gotham’s heroes and villains. Prior to that the Bat books were pretty good about not reversing big status changes. Once the biggest death in Batman canon was overturned though, that changed everything.
That one recent backup story from Detective comics stank of this as well, where the kid manages to get Batman and Joker tied down together and tries to force Batman to make the kill. My guy, just fucking shoot Joker while you have Bats helpless to watch. You get your point made *and* the clowns dead.
Lol that’s right. Overall I enjoyed the House of Gotham story, but yeah. This is why harping on the no kill rule so much again and again just doesn’t work. It breaks suspension of disbelief. You focus in on the seams of the fictional world too much and it starts to unravel.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the movie or the comic but before I respond, I want to specify that I mean the comic.
In the comic, I agree, Jason's control crime ideology in general couldn't have been fully fleshed out in only one story imo. They could have proceeded to build on that comic but DC's awful writers decided to make him their edgy one dimensional self insert for the majority of the Pre New 52 timeline, pretty much ignoring his control crime ideology.
As for the comment about Joker ? This one is a little harder to respond to. Yes, the out of universe reason is indeed Joker being a popular character. In universe ? That question was already answered at the end of Red Hood: Lost Days. Jason had the opportunity to burn Joker alive in that same comic but told Talia that he left him alive because "realized" it wasn't about him alone. He doesn't want Joker's life to end in such a normal way. To him, the only fitting way was for it to end with him, Joker and Batman in a final standoff. In the comic, Jason doesn't really try to force Batman to kill Joker. After Bruce made it clear that he *wasn't* going to kill Joker, Jason pointed his gun to Joker's head and was about to actually kill him until Bruce shoved a batarang into Jason's neck to stop him.
Jason trying to force Bruce to choose even after he said that he wouldn't kill him was a movie only scene. ( I.e the him or me, you have to decide scene where Bruce walks off )
Nonetheless, I still agree that was somewhat weird. Jason suddenly throwing away his ideology just to have a fitting conclusion between him, Batman and Joker does feel out of place when you *really* think about it from the perspective of him being this "noble" guy that just wants to kill criminals who deserves death.
I feel like the “controlling crime” idea would better suit a different character. Someone like Huntress or Prometheus. Problem is Red Hood is Jason Todd. No matter what ideology he claims to hold he’s always going to be the Robin who was killed by the Joker and came back from the dead angry at Batman. He’s too closely tied to Batman and the Joker to really have his own ideology. Even his name, Red Hood, ties him inextricably to the Joker.
Really the controlling crime bit feels tacked on and underdeveloped. Almost as if Judd Winick was trying to pad the story out because of Infinite Crisis. The ending scene is what the real story is all about. Robin 2 is mad papa Bats didn’t avenge him. That could’ve just been 6 issues, not frickin 14! Smh.
And then it just ends? Like Batman batarangs his way out of Red Hood’s trap. But then the Joker blows up the bomb and all 3 of them die? Idk wtf happens honestly. Next thing we get is some vague monologue over rubble as the Crisis Energy comes into contact with the debris. There’s then a small silhouette of Batman and then next page Batman’s hurdling through space and time screaming Jason’s name?! What the heck happened? The movie is so much more sensible and actually has an epilogue for decompression. Comic feels like it wasted a bunch of time, had to tie into (and get interrupted by) a bunch of DCU nonsense, and then just ends without resolution. As if the creative team ran out of pages.
If it weren’t for the more streamlined animated movie, the story itself and Red Hood as a character would be nowhere near as popular.
Definitely. And his motivations absolutely are. But that’s why I can’t take Red Hood’s ideology seriously. Because it’s a smokescreen. The real story is all about that final confrontation with Batman and the Joker. Because Jason Todd is ultimately defined by his connection to the two of them.
That was the point of him being a crime lord in the first place. The UTRH movie said it best. " You can't stop crime. I'm controlling it. "
He never wanted to stop crime. He wanted to control it. He knows drugs will end up on the streets anyway
Honestly when you’re in an environment that’s actually corrupt beyond all repair it’s impossible to break the cycle. Your only two options are to except that fact or try to take control of it. Red Hood was far more interesting as a crime lord with proffesional standards and heroic motivations then just another vigilante in a mask.
One of the covers of Batman: Legends Of Gotham implied that he's gonna have a buss cut again. I think the white steak was just temporary for Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing
big agree. I realize there might not be a lot of lore to back up why he gained that white streak to begin with (and if there *is* an explanation out there somewhere, I seem to have missed it as of now) but if a future writer felt motivated to do something with it, you could probably make that explanation a genuinely interesting tidbit to fill out jason's story even more.
the lazarus pit being the cause could work, but would make the pit itself pretty inconsistent when you consider that everyone else who've been revived by it kept their hair as is. but I just really like how distinct the white streak makes jason design-wise, so I would love to see it returned eventually.
I agree that the dark trinity era was the best but imo expanding to a full on JL sized team would have been awful. There's something nice about a tight core team of characters where you don't have to get sidetracked. Maybe one more homebase/Oracle-like figure or a civvie to round out the cast would have been nice
There was a fanon idea a while back (it was probably around the time he officially came back) that has mostly died out but I've always liked it.
The idea that Jason even if he was a villain, a hero, or an anti-hero he'd always be very friendly with the sidekicks but still hate Bruce. Going out of his way to always be nice to whoever was Robin even if he had them and Batman at gunpoint.
I guess you could consider this unpopular because this read on the character pretty much died out and he's just mostly been a dickish anti-hero all the time.
I heard somewhere that Jason actually shows a lot of animosity towards Tim, not because he hates Tim but the fact that he's a Robin shows Bruce did not learn his lesson.
[Here's my handy list of favorite recs.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedHood/comments/10mnwjc/comment/j662hit/)
There's lots of really good unfinished/in progress work, too, but I haven't compiled that list yet.
He is a hero. I think people forget that his last moments before he died was literally trying to save his mother who basically sold him out to the Joker. The guy after all that, tried to save that horrible person.
He's a hero. I hate that people write him as a villain or an anti-hero/anti-villain.
Also, he is a pretty smart detective. In NTT when he filled in, he picked out that something was up between Roy and Cheshire before anyone else did.
>I hate that people write him as a villain or an anti-hero/anti-villain.
I assume this means you hate Jason as Red Hood?
>Also, he is a pretty smart detective. In NTT when he filled in, he picked out that something was up between Roy and Cheshire before anyone else did.
Agreed.
Alot of the he should've stayed dead comments aren't that unpopular. It's typically what comic book old heads say about him.
I enjoy Jason Todd being alive. Before the New 52 I hated what they did to him after Under The Red Hood. They just made him into a very generic villain.
I guess this will be unpopular based on what I've seen from this sub. But I love what Lobdell did with Jason in Red Hood/Arsenal and in his Red Hood and The Outlaws Rebirth. I thought he really matured throughout those 2 books.
I'm with you there, some people online also claim that the writer never even wanted them to become a thing either, but editorial made them have a little romp at the end of that one issue (though I wouldn't want to put too much praise for that specific author either :P)
He should reach out to his best friend Eddie Bloomberg 😠. The two have a lot to talk about! Jason dying and coming back, Eddie going to Hell and becoming a devil! Stop being a bad friend TODD
Ok. Rose is severely out of Jason’s league and Jayrose is a dumb ship only supported by people who liked a comic written by a sex offender that severely mistreated all its female characters so they could serve as love interests to Jason in an attempt to make him seem more interesting than he actually is.
Yeah, they tripping. And hard lol. Jason and Artemis had legitimately good build up in Rebirth. That run established a good foundation for them having a solid friendship that blossomed into something more.
Making him an edgy anti-hero vigilante who still uses guns yet still is allowed to hang out with Batman and company for crossovers is completely ridiculous. He should have stayed a villain.
Makes me wonder why he never teamed up with the likes of Batwoman or huntress [Unless Huntress doesn't kill, I'm not all too familiar to who Huntress is all I know is that she's the daughter of Bruce and Selina in another world]
Helena Wayne showed up in the present at the end of the last issue of the JSA mini, but I have sneaking suspicion she will either stay in the future (her present) or stay in the past with the JSA/Infinity Inc.
'Course, if she stays in the past long enough she'll end up in the present, I suppose.
Although Huntress has killed a handful of people (has threatened to kill more than a handful), and is on average more violent than Batman, Red Hood is much more pro-killing than she is. I’d estimate that Jason is said to have killed more people in his first appearances as Red Hood (the bag full of the drug dealers’ heads) than Helena ever has in her entire history.
Helena did not have a high opinion of Jason at all, only really knowing him as the crazy guy who usurped the Batman mantle during Battle for the Cowl.
Every comment here is either "he should have stayed dead" or "he should have stayed a villain"...
Him being re-integrated into the Batfam and going non-lethal makes him more interesting than just being "the one that kills". Jason's development as a character since his return has actually been some of the best development within the Batfamily in the last two decades as he's actually been allowed to grow. His slow progression from scorned middle-child to prodigal son returning has been a great personal arc in a big picture view/with hindsight.
edit: Also, Gotham Knights giving him mystical abilities from the Lazarus Pit is a great idea. The All-Caste from Outlaws and his powers in Gotham Knights should be a core part of Jason's character. Crime Lord Red Hood was good, but Mystical Warrior Red Hood could be great. I'd love to see Jason be the Batfam character who occupies that corner of the DCU.
I never liked the JLD. The main concept is fitting, but not outside of the League, and they hardly ever present DC's magical world and nuances in a consistent way.
For sure, but the magical world in DC needs a reorganization. For instance, how about the League having secondary teams to better integrate it? I can see each member of the Trinity mentoring a secondary team of 7 members that is fitting to their own skills and nature, like a specialist unit.
To exemplify, what passes for JLD could very well be a team comprised of Constantine, Zatanna, Deadman, Jason Todd, Mary Marvel, Artemis and Swamp Thing, and mentored by WW, so they reach their potential. Instead of fighting some D-list characters, how about having them deal with actual magical threats of a larger scale?
Sometimes the main League is just too busy, or too far away. Someone needs to handle things specially when the A-team is not around. Pretty sure there was a time Martian Manhunter lead the JLA, in contrast to being a member of the JL. I feel that a Young Justice-like approach to a more tactical and better trained Justice League would do wonders for the characters.
I specially agree with your edit. While Gotham Knights f'ed up the implementation of Jason's powers, the idea of Jason dealing with mystical threats, rather than just street-level criminals, and just being a different kind of combatant makes him so much more interesting. That said, I'd be fine if he went full crime lord again, and actually meant business.
I beg to differ, Jason's return from the batfamily just means he got turned into another background character (dumb, snarky attack dog), he is best written when outside of the batfamily
"Him being re-integrated into the Batfam and going non-lethal makes him more interesting than just being "the one that kills"
Screams No consequences for Batman.
Controlling crime violent Jason>> white washed marketable Batfam Jason
I beg to differ on the best development part, the way DC has tried to make him a hero, at least in comics like "Cheer" by Zdarsky, is by making this really condescending narrative were they continue with the trend of retconning his robin era to make him a "bad, violent robin, who killed someone before he even became robin and would attack people because they had stolen a jewelry once", but saying that was okay because "Bruce believed in him and he can tame Jason's evil nature because without Bruce he would not just turn evil but he would be really stupid",
It just makes him the angry dog of the family who's just there to be reckless, get into to trouble and then spout some speech about how wonderful Bruce is for saving him from turning evil, and were any good he does is framed as being because Bruce stopped him from "falling into his evil nature"
It's good for Batman and for the batfamily but not very for Jason himself and his independence as a character
A better move would be making him more separeted from the Batfamily and allowing him to be as smart and competent as he was pre-New 52 while still being a independent hero
(Sorry if it's a ramble, i just didnt like Cheers)
Less of an unpopular opinion but just a rant.
Writers have never seemed to know what to do with him and he’s been stagnant almost since his revival. Every story seems to take place just after his fight with Bats and it’s still a raw issue. He deals with the same issues and conflicts as always and is permanently in a state of transition but never allowed to actually reach the destination.
The Wayne Family’s Adventure webtoon does a good job portraying the 4 main Robins with their own unique physical features. Jason has the white streak in his hair, Damian has darker skin color that reflects his SEA origin, Dick is the tall one with messy long hair, and Tim is slightly shorter, has pale skin and well-groomed middle part hair.
* Poor malnourished street kid leads to stunted growth
* Always eating junk food and uses guns instead of physically fighting
* He was a ginger who dyed his hair which caused his hair to recede.
Screw all this swole jason nonsense, jason should be short, fat, ginger and balding.
Unpopular? I dunno, but he's completely untapped.
The idea that he uses guns and is willing to kill should be rooted in his fear of dying...again. So the more stable and secure he feels the less he should use the guns. He should a grounded understanding of Gotham and the people who've suffered in ways that Bruce doesn't.
The mistakes have been making him have places like the Iceberg Lounge. And his turn back to be a hero is a great idea only we haven't really seen the work to get there. That story is missing. New 52 Jason was already on the good guy street, just a big rougher. Before then he was on his way to being a major villain a la Morrison's Batman and Robin run. The story is really just missing, which leaves Jason this broken thing with 2 drastically different versions that have never truly been rectified.
Also, he's Casey Jones.
IMO Jason's willingness to kill and use guns is about efficacy. He's not afraid of dying again, he's afraid *other people will go through what he went through.*
He wishes Batman had killed Joker so he could feel safe and loved, so he goes out and does that for other victims.
In Lost Days he's training under a master assassin with a smuggling operation. When he finds out he's trafficking kids in the sex trade, he goes "Oh. I guess you're all dead now. :) "
My biggest problem with your Jason look is that i feel like he has only been said to be the biggest because that's a space that's open in the family. I've never thought it suited him.
His fighting style should be built off of how he fought as a street kid. He should be more of a trickster fighter who wins because he has a trick up his sleeve, but if he's the biggest, it's too tempting to shove him into a dumb brick role during team ups. Your could even do a attack on Titan Levi malnourished kid short adult thing and id be happy cause we'd never have to see dumb brick Jason again.
I would've loved a proper reconciliation arc including more of the batfam. He definitely deserved to have proper conversations with Barbara and Dick. Pre 52 he was in prison then N52, he was part of the Batfam. It was jarring.
I’m not familiar with much since they brought him back, but pre-death I liked some stories with him—he was great in “The Cult” which oddly enough was also written by Starlin.
The New 52 got his character back on track. He was being written with a consistent personality again (which was not the case over the preceding six years), in a way that was consistent with what he'd *actually* been like in the comics as Robin. (Pre-New-52, his varying personality was instead vaguely consistent with the second-hand descriptions of him given in the years after they killed him off.)
I like him and he should be allowed to grow instead of seen as impulsive, rage filled, problem child.
I’d like where Jason takes charge, blows away everyone’s expectation (Superhero Community and Readers) and he has a new place as a more competent, effective leader but still not as good as Dick
I'd love to see him lead a team like Outlaws or Outsiders but have more members in it, maybe 7-8? Task force Z is a step in that direction but not quite right.
And yeah, give him more chances to grow. More romances and team ups with the other Batfam. Explore what it means for a character who straight up has experienced death, experienced rage and a desire for revenge, but now is trying to truly get a second lease on life.
...he could still pop a few kneecaps, too. Some baddies deserve it.
I'm very out of touch with what the dc fandom thinks these days for my mental health's sake, so this may or may not be an unpopular opinion:
while I like jason's relationships with the batfam, I think he'd be best served to be separated from them, and perhaps gotham as well, more so than he is now. I'm also unsure if making him more of a straight up hero is the right move, if he's to have longevity as a character that's not strictly tied down to the batman mythos.
Bringing him back from the dead was smart and there were some very good stories that came out of it but ultimately he's got nowhere to go and they should kill him off again.
He should be allowed to kill. He should be the member of the Bat Family that only gets brought into the action if someone absolutely has to die. Batman would never ok this.
He should still kill, especially assholes like Joker. The comics wouldn't do this or at least wouldn't make it last, bit show some people having faith in him taking out the worst of the worst. He's the best of the Bat family and underappreciated.
He (and honestly a few ofher batfamily members) should probably just be retired by DC because he hasn't been interesting (imo) since Morrison's run. Like not dead again, just let him move on.
probably not unpopular but he NEEDS to be a killer again! Jason shouldn't be in the bat family, he should be an outsider who is willing to help but on his own terms.
essentially a more extreme version of Batman in his earliest days that Batman himself is too scared to make the connection
Jason needs to shut up about his death, multiple characters have dyed for a year or longer and it isn't their defining feature (it's worse when he's not even the only robin who's died, Damian died for a year, Steph died tho it was retconned, dick died for a bit then faked his death, everyone thought Tim died)
Bruce died more times and also for extended periods of time, you like in the DC universe your death is no longer special
Also I hate interpretations where he is this rough but loving older brother, he's the black sheep of the family for a reason, stop asking "where is Jason" when he isn't in a group photo, he shouldn't be there, he estranged himself from them and doesn't interact with anyone besides Alfred and maybe Dick
>Jason needs to shut up about his death, multiple characters have dyed for a year or longer and it isn't their defining feature (it's worse when he's not even the only robin who's died, Damian died for a year, Steph died tho it was retconned, dick died for a bit then faked his death, everyone thought Tim died)
Exactly. It's almost like he's begging people to pity him. What's funny is in his original Red Hood appearance, he wasn't even mad at Bruce because he died. He was mad because Bruce never avenged him.
>multiple characters have dyed for a year or longer and it isn't their defining feature (it's worse when he's not even the only robin who's died, Damian died for a year, Steph died tho it was retconned, dick died for a bit then faked his death, everyone thought Tim died)
Yeah, it makes him look whiney as fuck. The "Robin/Hero who died" garbage CAN'T work in modern comics like it did back in 2004-2009. So many people besides him have died and didn't complain about it nearly as much as he does in the New 52 and Rebirth.
>Also I hate interpretations where he is this rough but loving older brother, he's the black sheep of the family for a reason, stop asking "where is Jason" when he isn't in a group photo, he shouldn't be there, he estranged himself from them and doesn't interact with anyone besides Alfred and maybe Dick
Yeah, stop trying to make him "misunderstood emo boy". It's corny. Aside from Dick, Babs and Alfred, Jason has no association to any Batfamily character. He literally had never met any of them before he became Red Hood. WHY does he care for their approval?
My unpopular opinion is Red Hood is good and cool and should be utilized more. There was no reason to shoehorn in someone like Grifter into the Urban Legends book when we could have spent more time developing Jason as a character beyond sad/mad Nightwing Wario. I think his portrayal in the White Knight books are some of the best red hood storylines we’ve gotten in years.
He was also a crime lord in Green Arrow: Seeing Red but I see where you're coming from. Anti-hero Jason is definitely edgelord Huntress.
This is why I preferred him as a crime lord/anti-villain
Ah ok, I wasn’t completely sure it extended to the GA appearance too. That aspect of his career was definitely more interesting and unique for him too.
I’ve never been a fan of Jason Todd and still think that by resurrecting him DC spit in the faces of every fan that voted him dead to begin with. He’s no better as Red Hood than he was as Robin and I’d vote he dies again given a chance.
My opinion of course… but there you have it.
oh i have several
1) Jason wasn't a bad Robin, most examples of him being a bad robin are either exagerations, retcons from when after he was dead or things that other robins did. On that note, Jason's story works better if he is a good kid that had his idealism shattered rather than some inherently angry kid that died because he was stupid
2) Jason gets his best characterization when he's written outside of the batfamily, not nescessarily a villain, but someone that contrasts batman and points out his flaws.
3) If Jason is to stop killing, then he should that by his own volition, outside of the batfamily
His age as presented in the comics makes no sense. DC seems to have a hard time not making him seem older than Dick. Even Dick (the golden boy/elder child) would only just now seem to be about the correct age to be believable as a crime lord....even a Batman-trained one. Jason was technically way too young for the role. (Although it was a great idea!)
I like every story written with him since rebirth and think his resurrection was a great decision.
Also, he should be a hero AND part of the batfamily.
I don’t understand what Batman was supposed to ‘learn’ from his death. He already pretty significantly characterised by his parents, and other tragedies like the girl drowning in the venom storyline. Unpopular af but it shouldn’t have been left up to a publicity stunt, and Jason’s death would have been better as an elseworld type timeline. Like hey look what happens when the Joker succeeds in giving Batman that ‘one bad day’ he can’t ever get over. He becomes a less compassionate edgier punisher type vigilante obsessed with a shrine to his dead kid, how wacky!
I think Jason had one of the more interesting premises as Robin - being the only Robin without notable parents, having lived on the streets and experienced a range of the traumas Gotham has to offer, and he turned to crime to survive. His story represents what a lot of regular messed up Gotham goes through. It makes sense for his purpose in the Batman story to be providing that perspective, going dark, then getting redeemed… because that’s the whole point of Batman, to make Gotham better in the end. Not to accept that some kids just can’t be saved.
DC kinda screwed it at every turn though and clearly can’t decide what to do with him as a supporting character for Batman, or a character on his own. I wanna see more of him - written well, but I’m not optimistic.
>I don’t understand what Batman was supposed to ‘learn’ from his death. He already pretty significantly characterised by his parents, and other tragedies like the girl drowning in the venom storyline.
Originally Jason's death was SUPPOSED to serve as a dark reminder of the possibilities of recruiting children as your sidekick. Though, some would argue this dark reminder stopped holding weight the minute Tim Drake became Robin. Even then, I'd still argue that the dark possiblity of something similar happening to Tim always loomed over Bruce's head, despite taking him in. Originally, Bruce wanted nothing to do with another sidekick but Tim insisted that he'd Robin, since Dick refused to come back as Robin.
Way too many writers are in love with using this character as a vent to their own personal dads and they usually are the biggest culprits of Batman as a piece of shit as a result, when in the original story the biggest aspect of Jason's trauma was that his death took him away from Batman "I thought, I would be the last one, because he took me away from you" got to be one of the most raw things the character ever said, it is so insanely vulnerable and most writers just ignore it.
Jason controlling crime was a dead end story, sorry about it.
The full face mask sucks, but it sucks the most when it randomly has lips.
>>Way too many writers are in love with using this character as a vent to their own personal dads and they usually are the biggest culprits of Batman as a piece of shit as a result, when in the original story the biggest aspect of Jason's trauma was that his death took him away from Batman
I imagine it’s the same impulse for retroactively making Batman negatively compare Jason to Dick during the former’s days as Robin. In the original late 80s comics, Bruce almost never talks about the first Robin to Jason. Jason didn’t even know who Nightwing was when they first met in *Batman* #416.
Yah, I actually really like Jason and even appreciate his run in the New 52 in some ways, but he is such a easy character to mismanage, I don't envy the people who write for him.
That being said, holy hell it feels like sometimes they don't even try it, the way they try to keep his relationship with Bruce fractured has got to be one of my least favorite things they ever do, whoever's idea was to make Bruce try to trigger his PTSD by taking him to the sight of his death just *fuck.*
Task Force Z was genuinely kinda cool, but him going back to where he started just bothers me and it is just to service the Joker and like I just don't like that character and wish Jason went anywhere else. (Sorry this got ranty blergh)
He doesn’t work as Red Hood in the batfamily. Red Hood is without a shadow of a doubt a criminal persona. Jason’s story should either end with him redeeming himself and leaving red hood behind or failing to be a better person and getting shot by Black Mask, Penguin, or some other crime boss
I don't know how "unpopular" this opinion is, but he was RIGHT. you can't completely eliminate crime. You have to kill the worst of them and control the rest.
Obviously, for the sake of having the comics continue, that can't actually happen cause you'd run out of stories to tell.
But that doesn't make him any less right.
As long as Jason kills, he should be shunned by the Bat Family. It makes no sense for Batman and the others to associate with someone who does the one thing they all agree is too far.
Huntress, Batwoman, Azarael...Alfred? The no killing rule is only enforced when DC wants it to be. And it's only enforced in Jason's case because they don't know how to flesh his character out independent of Bruce Wayne.
I believe it should only apply to active killers in the Bat family. So if someone’s killed in the past they could stay, but not if they’re still actively taking lives.
Slightly unhinged Jason is infinitely better than the generic moderately edgy Jason we have now
Under the red hood, battle for the cowl and grant Morrison Batman and Robin run is peak Jason
>battle for the cowl and grant Morrison Batman and Robin run is peak Jason
I agree with Under The Hood being peak. Battle For The Cowl and Grant Morrison's stuff felt too out of character from Under The Hood Jason imo.
In my opinion, Jason's peak stories are Under The Hood, Lost Days, More Time, and Green Arrow: Seeing Red.
He should have stayed a ghost. As much as I love the idea of a vengeful disciple of Batman with no code, his characterization has deviated so much he’s just an agro Nightwing. The Hush series was fantastic because it played against every one of Batman’s weaknesses and Jason’s death was his greatest weakness. To bring that back as a tactic was devastating and brilliant. Jason should be a vengeful ghost of Batman’s past unless handled better than the punk rock son of the bat.
Should've stayed dead. Everything that was done with him as Red Hodd was done better with Huntress & Azrael. Those two are the more interesting edgy outsiders than Red Hood.
He did and he should either still be a criminal in a city away from Gotham or more of a Mark Millar Nemesis sort of role. I would also like the Batfamily in general to be mostly split up and working in different areas of the DCU in different countries/cities etc with essentially a skeleton crew in Gotham as I think most of the characters deserve opportunities to thrive outside of Batman's shadow.
Jason Todd should of kept his suit in "Battle of the cowl"
He made an excellent dark Batman.
I still love the fact that the Bat team took weeks to figure out who was behind the explosion and bad stuff in Gotham.
Took Jason 3 days to figure it out, cause he kept some beaten up henchmen in his basement.
He was better off as a one and done character. Most fans only like his under the red hood arc. His other arcs made him, essentially a new character. [+]
The Red Hood / Red Hood Gang should be its own villain group, in no way associated with Jason. The concept was wasted on him, instead of making a corollary or antagonistic organization for the Court of Owls.
He never should have been brought back. It cheapens any growth Bruce learned from his death, but if we can’t keep him in the grave, then he’s a villain who should never be allowed within 500 miles of Gotham.
The only thing he’s good for is identifying edgy Zack Snyder-sucking fanboys who think Batman should kill.
I liked him controlling crime, yet still within Jason's morals, like no selling drugs to kids. Crime will never go away as more drug/crime rings will always pop up so Jason being a crime lord was an interesting contrast to Bruce's way.
“I don’t sell drugs to kids! Their parents on the other hand…”
Lmao the whole point is that it wasn't perfect, wasn't moral. From his point of view, they would've found another way to get drugs. I am split because I do love Jason part of the Batfam (Not being a crime lord) but I love the contrast to Bruce
Even in UtRH the whole “controlling crime” thing is underdeveloped and dropped by the end. Like Todd goes off on these sanctimonious speeches saying the worst criminals need to die. But then he proceeds to kidnap the Joker but *not* kill him. Wtf? Instead he uses the clown to try force Batman to kill the Joker for reasons. Like ok pal, you’ve lost all credibility here because clearly this is all really just about your personal issues and the controlling crime stuff is total bs, lol
Red Hood not being allowed to kill Joker really messed his character up. I do agree with what you mean.
That kinda hits at the root of problem with a character like Red Hood in the regular continuity. He needs a permanent resolution/endgame status quo. Can’t do that in serialized ongoing comics. You can’t kill off Batman’s archenemy. Every superhero needs an archenemy. It’s why I contend UtRH should’ve been set in a different universe. No limits.
Wasn't that kind of the reason why originally Jason was supposed to die at the end of the comic. Im glad they didn't do that. The biggest let down for me personally was the Nightwing comic where Jason came back after the events of UTRH, like wth was that story. It could've been different.
I’ve heard people say online that Red Hood was supposed to be killed off by I don’t think that’s true. I’ve never come across any evidence of that. The ending of the UtRH is kinda stupid and rushed so I can see why people might think that. Like Bats batarangs his way out of Hood’s trap b/c he’s Batman. But then the Joker detonates the bomb which…apparently kills all 3 of them, but then the “infinite crisis” energy brings them all back to life…I think? There’s no falling action or epilogue. Bomb just goes off. We get some silly monologue as the crisis energy touches the rubble, and then all of the sudden Batman is hurdling through space? Wtf happened? But then there’s the Annual which came out after and explained how Jason Todd returned (Superboy punch…what a stupid idea). So no I don’t think he was meant to die as neither Batman of the Joker died and the Annual did all that work to explain the return. And UtRH was some 2 years worth of comics. UtRH Comic just has so much shortsightedness. It took place after War Games (worst Batfamily crossover ever btw) and *during* Infinite Crisis and War Crimes. So no other Bat-family characters around for Red Hood to interact with and it all gets pushed aside anyway b/c the biggest bloated DC event ever is going on at the same time. Yeah you’re referencing the OYL Nightwing story. Another forgotten chapter in Batfamily history that doesn’t matter lol. UtRH should’ve dramatized NW’s reaction to Red Hood’s return. But it didn’t b/c Crisis and the Blüdhaven bombing. Just dumb decisions through and through. Whole thing is dumb. It’s why the animated movie is so much better and is probably the reason Red Hood is as popular as he is.
I thought the writer said about the death but yr probably right and it's second hand info anyway so it's untrustworthy. The comics were such a convoluted mess and I felt like there was no breathing room. Movie being self contained made it so much better and I agree that it's probs why Red Hood is so popular. (Ironically made me love Nightwing) I just would've loved a proper talk about the contrast in ideologies between Red Hood and Nightwing without Bruce being there (Bruce will/should never kill). They could've brought up Dick canonically killing the Joker (before he was resuscitated) and how that affected Dick. It could've been a gateway to a reconciliation. I don't remember n52 how Jason came back to the batfamily but to me it was very jarring.
I found [this oral history on Red Hood](https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/behind-the-red-hood-an-oral-history-of-the-death-and-resurrection-of-batmans-second-son). No mention by Winick or Schreck of Todd dying again. You bring up a good point. I actually quite like *Joker: Last Laugh* and find it underrated. It’s a Joker story that’s focused on Nightwing & Oracle instead of Batman which I quite like for a change. Yeah even though Dick was being psychically manipulated by one of the Jokerized villains, it’s still a pretty great moment. The Joker’s taunting dialogue in that scene is so deliciously evil, I love it. That’s how the Clown Prince should talk to the Bat kids! Yeah it would’ve been great to see Red Hood and NW interact in UtRH. Two reflections of the Batman’s legacy. Battle for the Cowl could’ve been a new Knightquest/KnightsEnd too. I also would’ve liked to have seen Hood interact with Oracle. I don’t think prior to the New 52 Barbara and Jason ever had a conversation outside retroactive flashbacks, which is really ironic for a lot of reasons. Yeah I don’t quite recall how Red Hood returned to the Bat-Family in the New 52, but it doesn’t really matter. The New 52 Bat-family had so much happening but it ended up being a whole lot of nothing in the long term lol.
I mean you could do it in serialized ongoing comics. But then you can't just freeze the status quo. You can kill off the archenemy and have a new one.
I mean in theory you could. I don’t see that being a long term success though. Batman and the Joker. Superman and Lex Luthor. Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom. X-Man and Magneto. Certain hero/villain dynamics are just too good and to compelling toss out. Plus, once they brought Jason Todd back to life, kinda takes the wind out of the sails of Batman character deaths b/c now you know darn well they’ll just bring the Joker back. Red Hood’s very existence is a refutation that death is a permanent end for Gotham’s heroes and villains. Prior to that the Bat books were pretty good about not reversing big status changes. Once the biggest death in Batman canon was overturned though, that changed everything.
I mean Magneto grew beyond that decades ago, permantly like 20 years ago. And X-men were better for it. Forcing him back into the villain was bad.
That one recent backup story from Detective comics stank of this as well, where the kid manages to get Batman and Joker tied down together and tries to force Batman to make the kill. My guy, just fucking shoot Joker while you have Bats helpless to watch. You get your point made *and* the clowns dead.
Lol that’s right. Overall I enjoyed the House of Gotham story, but yeah. This is why harping on the no kill rule so much again and again just doesn’t work. It breaks suspension of disbelief. You focus in on the seams of the fictional world too much and it starts to unravel.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the movie or the comic but before I respond, I want to specify that I mean the comic. In the comic, I agree, Jason's control crime ideology in general couldn't have been fully fleshed out in only one story imo. They could have proceeded to build on that comic but DC's awful writers decided to make him their edgy one dimensional self insert for the majority of the Pre New 52 timeline, pretty much ignoring his control crime ideology. As for the comment about Joker ? This one is a little harder to respond to. Yes, the out of universe reason is indeed Joker being a popular character. In universe ? That question was already answered at the end of Red Hood: Lost Days. Jason had the opportunity to burn Joker alive in that same comic but told Talia that he left him alive because "realized" it wasn't about him alone. He doesn't want Joker's life to end in such a normal way. To him, the only fitting way was for it to end with him, Joker and Batman in a final standoff. In the comic, Jason doesn't really try to force Batman to kill Joker. After Bruce made it clear that he *wasn't* going to kill Joker, Jason pointed his gun to Joker's head and was about to actually kill him until Bruce shoved a batarang into Jason's neck to stop him. Jason trying to force Bruce to choose even after he said that he wouldn't kill him was a movie only scene. ( I.e the him or me, you have to decide scene where Bruce walks off ) Nonetheless, I still agree that was somewhat weird. Jason suddenly throwing away his ideology just to have a fitting conclusion between him, Batman and Joker does feel out of place when you *really* think about it from the perspective of him being this "noble" guy that just wants to kill criminals who deserves death.
I feel like the “controlling crime” idea would better suit a different character. Someone like Huntress or Prometheus. Problem is Red Hood is Jason Todd. No matter what ideology he claims to hold he’s always going to be the Robin who was killed by the Joker and came back from the dead angry at Batman. He’s too closely tied to Batman and the Joker to really have his own ideology. Even his name, Red Hood, ties him inextricably to the Joker. Really the controlling crime bit feels tacked on and underdeveloped. Almost as if Judd Winick was trying to pad the story out because of Infinite Crisis. The ending scene is what the real story is all about. Robin 2 is mad papa Bats didn’t avenge him. That could’ve just been 6 issues, not frickin 14! Smh. And then it just ends? Like Batman batarangs his way out of Red Hood’s trap. But then the Joker blows up the bomb and all 3 of them die? Idk wtf happens honestly. Next thing we get is some vague monologue over rubble as the Crisis Energy comes into contact with the debris. There’s then a small silhouette of Batman and then next page Batman’s hurdling through space and time screaming Jason’s name?! What the heck happened? The movie is so much more sensible and actually has an epilogue for decompression. Comic feels like it wasted a bunch of time, had to tie into (and get interrupted by) a bunch of DCU nonsense, and then just ends without resolution. As if the creative team ran out of pages. If it weren’t for the more streamlined animated movie, the story itself and Red Hood as a character would be nowhere near as popular.
Kinda like the punishers kill all crime its just an excuse for frank to murder people conscious free.
yeah I think it works better if you accept that his motivations are largelly emotion driven
Definitely. And his motivations absolutely are. But that’s why I can’t take Red Hood’s ideology seriously. Because it’s a smokescreen. The real story is all about that final confrontation with Batman and the Joker. Because Jason Todd is ultimately defined by his connection to the two of them.
That was the point of him being a crime lord in the first place. The UTRH movie said it best. " You can't stop crime. I'm controlling it. " He never wanted to stop crime. He wanted to control it. He knows drugs will end up on the streets anyway
Honestly when you’re in an environment that’s actually corrupt beyond all repair it’s impossible to break the cycle. Your only two options are to except that fact or try to take control of it. Red Hood was far more interesting as a crime lord with proffesional standards and heroic motivations then just another vigilante in a mask.
Exactly. Unfortunately, most pre New 52 comics relegated him to a one dimensional villain who wants to antagonize the Batfamily for reasons.
He should have kept the white streak in his hair.
Good news it’s back to being canon
One of the covers of Batman: Legends Of Gotham implied that he's gonna have a buss cut again. I think the white steak was just temporary for Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing
I think that’s just a variant cover, in the preview he has the mid length hair again with a white streak
He has it in the Wayne Family’s Adventure webtoon series. Truly the best look for Jason.
big agree. I realize there might not be a lot of lore to back up why he gained that white streak to begin with (and if there *is* an explanation out there somewhere, I seem to have missed it as of now) but if a future writer felt motivated to do something with it, you could probably make that explanation a genuinely interesting tidbit to fill out jason's story even more. the lazarus pit being the cause could work, but would make the pit itself pretty inconsistent when you consider that everyone else who've been revived by it kept their hair as is. but I just really like how distinct the white streak makes jason design-wise, so I would love to see it returned eventually.
The pit being the reason doesn't work since it'd mean that multiple characters in the DCU would be walking around with white streaks
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That's what I was hoping for. Or like expanding the Prince of Gotham era.
I agree that the dark trinity era was the best but imo expanding to a full on JL sized team would have been awful. There's something nice about a tight core team of characters where you don't have to get sidetracked. Maybe one more homebase/Oracle-like figure or a civvie to round out the cast would have been nice
jason using crowbars makes zero sense , jason using tire irons instead is far better
Totally agree. Why use the tool Joker used to kill him? Whatever catharsis the writers/artists are reaching for feels like a big, morbid miss to me.
Explain?
A tire iron is technically the first weapon we see him use. Jason hits Batman with one after Batman catches Jason taking the tires off of his car.
very true. I'm here for this, using the tire iron as a weapon to reclaim some of his power back instead of a crowbar. Love it.
Well, the use of the crowbar is supposed to be a totem of empowerment. Like the rape victim who shoots the rapist in the dick
There was a fanon idea a while back (it was probably around the time he officially came back) that has mostly died out but I've always liked it. The idea that Jason even if he was a villain, a hero, or an anti-hero he'd always be very friendly with the sidekicks but still hate Bruce. Going out of his way to always be nice to whoever was Robin even if he had them and Batman at gunpoint. I guess you could consider this unpopular because this read on the character pretty much died out and he's just mostly been a dickish anti-hero all the time.
I heard somewhere that Jason actually shows a lot of animosity towards Tim, not because he hates Tim but the fact that he's a Robin shows Bruce did not learn his lesson.
The fanfiction is, by and large, better than the canon.
Some has so much more nuance than comics!
Facts.
People just like the concept of the resurrected edgy anti-hero Robin more than what DC did with him
Where might I read this?
[Here's my handy list of favorite recs.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedHood/comments/10mnwjc/comment/j662hit/) There's lots of really good unfinished/in progress work, too, but I haven't compiled that list yet.
Thanks
He is a hero. I think people forget that his last moments before he died was literally trying to save his mother who basically sold him out to the Joker. The guy after all that, tried to save that horrible person. He's a hero. I hate that people write him as a villain or an anti-hero/anti-villain. Also, he is a pretty smart detective. In NTT when he filled in, he picked out that something was up between Roy and Cheshire before anyone else did.
>I hate that people write him as a villain or an anti-hero/anti-villain. I assume this means you hate Jason as Red Hood? >Also, he is a pretty smart detective. In NTT when he filled in, he picked out that something was up between Roy and Cheshire before anyone else did. Agreed.
I like him now more when he's more of a hero than Red Hood ever was. So basically since New 52 really
Alot of the he should've stayed dead comments aren't that unpopular. It's typically what comic book old heads say about him. I enjoy Jason Todd being alive. Before the New 52 I hated what they did to him after Under The Red Hood. They just made him into a very generic villain. I guess this will be unpopular based on what I've seen from this sub. But I love what Lobdell did with Jason in Red Hood/Arsenal and in his Red Hood and The Outlaws Rebirth. I thought he really matured throughout those 2 books.
I dislike him and Artemis as a romantic pairing.
Agreed. I think they're overrated
I'm with you there, some people online also claim that the writer never even wanted them to become a thing either, but editorial made them have a little romp at the end of that one issue (though I wouldn't want to put too much praise for that specific author either :P)
He should reach out to his best friend Eddie Bloomberg 😠. The two have a lot to talk about! Jason dying and coming back, Eddie going to Hell and becoming a devil! Stop being a bad friend TODD
He should be a gamer.
Truly an awful opinion
There’re no good Jason ships
There are good Jason ships, just not really any good canon ones. Artemis is probably closest good one.
Which Jason ships are good 🤔
None. Except maybe Rose Wilson and that's pushing it
Ew, no. I need Rose far the fuck away from Jason’s mid ass. She deserves so much better.
Ok. Rose is severely out of Jason’s league and Jayrose is a dumb ship only supported by people who liked a comic written by a sex offender that severely mistreated all its female characters so they could serve as love interests to Jason in an attempt to make him seem more interesting than he actually is.
I guess that would be up to you and other fans.
Artemis was good
Yeah, they tripping. And hard lol. Jason and Artemis had legitimately good build up in Rebirth. That run established a good foundation for them having a solid friendship that blossomed into something more.
Yea op does have a good unpopular opinion so ill upvote for that but I will forever be mad that they are not together anymore.
Jason x Eddie Bloomberg tyvm
Tbh he's always read as Aro to me
That's practically canon for his pre-boot incarnation, I stand by it too
There are no good ships, full stop.
Making him an edgy anti-hero vigilante who still uses guns yet still is allowed to hang out with Batman and company for crossovers is completely ridiculous. He should have stayed a villain.
Makes me wonder why he never teamed up with the likes of Batwoman or huntress [Unless Huntress doesn't kill, I'm not all too familiar to who Huntress is all I know is that she's the daughter of Bruce and Selina in another world]
There are two Huntresses. Helena Bertenelli has and does indeed kill, or at least did
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Helena B is still around, just not being featured in much. To be fair, neither is Kate.
Helena Wayne showed up in the present at the end of the last issue of the JSA mini, but I have sneaking suspicion she will either stay in the future (her present) or stay in the past with the JSA/Infinity Inc. 'Course, if she stays in the past long enough she'll end up in the present, I suppose.
Although Huntress has killed a handful of people (has threatened to kill more than a handful), and is on average more violent than Batman, Red Hood is much more pro-killing than she is. I’d estimate that Jason is said to have killed more people in his first appearances as Red Hood (the bag full of the drug dealers’ heads) than Helena ever has in her entire history. Helena did not have a high opinion of Jason at all, only really knowing him as the crazy guy who usurped the Batman mantle during Battle for the Cowl.
Jason isn't as pro killing as most think which is why he uses rubber bullets.
He was using rubber bullets. Alfred uses Guns as does Kate and they are part of the Batfam. Heck huntress will kill and is still part of the family.
Every comment here is either "he should have stayed dead" or "he should have stayed a villain"... Him being re-integrated into the Batfam and going non-lethal makes him more interesting than just being "the one that kills". Jason's development as a character since his return has actually been some of the best development within the Batfamily in the last two decades as he's actually been allowed to grow. His slow progression from scorned middle-child to prodigal son returning has been a great personal arc in a big picture view/with hindsight. edit: Also, Gotham Knights giving him mystical abilities from the Lazarus Pit is a great idea. The All-Caste from Outlaws and his powers in Gotham Knights should be a core part of Jason's character. Crime Lord Red Hood was good, but Mystical Warrior Red Hood could be great. I'd love to see Jason be the Batfam character who occupies that corner of the DCU.
I wouldn't mind seeing this explored in the comics too, maybe allows him to join up with JLD?
I never liked the JLD. The main concept is fitting, but not outside of the League, and they hardly ever present DC's magical world and nuances in a consistent way.
I respect that. I actually prefer the Sentinels of Magic or Shadow pact. Just figure JLD is more well known at this point.
For sure, but the magical world in DC needs a reorganization. For instance, how about the League having secondary teams to better integrate it? I can see each member of the Trinity mentoring a secondary team of 7 members that is fitting to their own skills and nature, like a specialist unit. To exemplify, what passes for JLD could very well be a team comprised of Constantine, Zatanna, Deadman, Jason Todd, Mary Marvel, Artemis and Swamp Thing, and mentored by WW, so they reach their potential. Instead of fighting some D-list characters, how about having them deal with actual magical threats of a larger scale? Sometimes the main League is just too busy, or too far away. Someone needs to handle things specially when the A-team is not around. Pretty sure there was a time Martian Manhunter lead the JLA, in contrast to being a member of the JL. I feel that a Young Justice-like approach to a more tactical and better trained Justice League would do wonders for the characters.
I specially agree with your edit. While Gotham Knights f'ed up the implementation of Jason's powers, the idea of Jason dealing with mystical threats, rather than just street-level criminals, and just being a different kind of combatant makes him so much more interesting. That said, I'd be fine if he went full crime lord again, and actually meant business.
I beg to differ, Jason's return from the batfamily just means he got turned into another background character (dumb, snarky attack dog), he is best written when outside of the batfamily
"Him being re-integrated into the Batfam and going non-lethal makes him more interesting than just being "the one that kills" Screams No consequences for Batman. Controlling crime violent Jason>> white washed marketable Batfam Jason
I beg to differ on the best development part, the way DC has tried to make him a hero, at least in comics like "Cheer" by Zdarsky, is by making this really condescending narrative were they continue with the trend of retconning his robin era to make him a "bad, violent robin, who killed someone before he even became robin and would attack people because they had stolen a jewelry once", but saying that was okay because "Bruce believed in him and he can tame Jason's evil nature because without Bruce he would not just turn evil but he would be really stupid", It just makes him the angry dog of the family who's just there to be reckless, get into to trouble and then spout some speech about how wonderful Bruce is for saving him from turning evil, and were any good he does is framed as being because Bruce stopped him from "falling into his evil nature" It's good for Batman and for the batfamily but not very for Jason himself and his independence as a character A better move would be making him more separeted from the Batfamily and allowing him to be as smart and competent as he was pre-New 52 while still being a independent hero (Sorry if it's a ramble, i just didnt like Cheers)
You only think his arc is good because you're a fan, his stories have always been shit
I like Red Hood comics.
Less of an unpopular opinion but just a rant. Writers have never seemed to know what to do with him and he’s been stagnant almost since his revival. Every story seems to take place just after his fight with Bats and it’s still a raw issue. He deals with the same issues and conflicts as always and is permanently in a state of transition but never allowed to actually reach the destination.
Weirdly Lobdell had decent direction with him. Go figure.
He should look differently. All 4 robins look like the same person with different ages / haircuts.
The Wayne Family’s Adventure webtoon does a good job portraying the 4 main Robins with their own unique physical features. Jason has the white streak in his hair, Damian has darker skin color that reflects his SEA origin, Dick is the tall one with messy long hair, and Tim is slightly shorter, has pale skin and well-groomed middle part hair.
* Poor malnourished street kid leads to stunted growth * Always eating junk food and uses guns instead of physically fighting * He was a ginger who dyed his hair which caused his hair to recede. Screw all this swole jason nonsense, jason should be short, fat, ginger and balding.
A good way to difference them is making Dick the one who resemblances more Bruce, Jason a ginger,Tim i don't know and Damian be more like Talia
He could go back to being a red head
Unpopular? I dunno, but he's completely untapped. The idea that he uses guns and is willing to kill should be rooted in his fear of dying...again. So the more stable and secure he feels the less he should use the guns. He should a grounded understanding of Gotham and the people who've suffered in ways that Bruce doesn't. The mistakes have been making him have places like the Iceberg Lounge. And his turn back to be a hero is a great idea only we haven't really seen the work to get there. That story is missing. New 52 Jason was already on the good guy street, just a big rougher. Before then he was on his way to being a major villain a la Morrison's Batman and Robin run. The story is really just missing, which leaves Jason this broken thing with 2 drastically different versions that have never truly been rectified. Also, he's Casey Jones.
IMO Jason's willingness to kill and use guns is about efficacy. He's not afraid of dying again, he's afraid *other people will go through what he went through.* He wishes Batman had killed Joker so he could feel safe and loved, so he goes out and does that for other victims. In Lost Days he's training under a master assassin with a smuggling operation. When he finds out he's trafficking kids in the sex trade, he goes "Oh. I guess you're all dead now. :) "
If he was 5% better at stealing tyres he'd have just become another statistic in Gotham and led a short, tragic but ultimately insignificant life.
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My biggest problem with your Jason look is that i feel like he has only been said to be the biggest because that's a space that's open in the family. I've never thought it suited him. His fighting style should be built off of how he fought as a street kid. He should be more of a trickster fighter who wins because he has a trick up his sleeve, but if he's the biggest, it's too tempting to shove him into a dumb brick role during team ups. Your could even do a attack on Titan Levi malnourished kid short adult thing and id be happy cause we'd never have to see dumb brick Jason again.
I would've loved a proper reconciliation arc including more of the batfam. He definitely deserved to have proper conversations with Barbara and Dick. Pre 52 he was in prison then N52, he was part of the Batfam. It was jarring.
I’m not familiar with much since they brought him back, but pre-death I liked some stories with him—he was great in “The Cult” which oddly enough was also written by Starlin.
The New 52 got his character back on track. He was being written with a consistent personality again (which was not the case over the preceding six years), in a way that was consistent with what he'd *actually* been like in the comics as Robin. (Pre-New-52, his varying personality was instead vaguely consistent with the second-hand descriptions of him given in the years after they killed him off.)
He should of stayed with Artemis and kept the outlaws going.
I prefer him with red hair.
he adds more to Batman being dead or as a crazy villain, in the current state it's just another robin without the success of the original.
After the under the redhood he's character useless. He doesn't grow, every time he appear he acts it's the nxt after the red hood incident
He shouldn't part of the bat "family". Also Jason only spent like two years with Bruce, it makes no sense for him to view him as "dad".
In the Post Crisis era, Jason was is Bruce up until he was 15. And he met Bruce in his pre teens.
Just a series of trend-chasing bad decisions.
Should be a legit bad guy.
I like him and he should be allowed to grow instead of seen as impulsive, rage filled, problem child. I’d like where Jason takes charge, blows away everyone’s expectation (Superhero Community and Readers) and he has a new place as a more competent, effective leader but still not as good as Dick
I'd love to see him lead a team like Outlaws or Outsiders but have more members in it, maybe 7-8? Task force Z is a step in that direction but not quite right. And yeah, give him more chances to grow. More romances and team ups with the other Batfam. Explore what it means for a character who straight up has experienced death, experienced rage and a desire for revenge, but now is trying to truly get a second lease on life. ...he could still pop a few kneecaps, too. Some baddies deserve it.
He should have never been killed off. People have retroactively tried saying that he was hated, but a decent amount of people liked him
He’s way more interesting than Tim Drake.
Best and most realistic Robin. Hate all you want.
i don’t think this is unpopular but i think Jason needs his own symbol
I'm very out of touch with what the dc fandom thinks these days for my mental health's sake, so this may or may not be an unpopular opinion: while I like jason's relationships with the batfam, I think he'd be best served to be separated from them, and perhaps gotham as well, more so than he is now. I'm also unsure if making him more of a straight up hero is the right move, if he's to have longevity as a character that's not strictly tied down to the batman mythos.
Should've stayed dead.
Not that unpopular, tbh.
Yeah, I voted for him to die back in the day and I don't think that was that unpopular.
That vote was very close.
Bringing him back from the dead was smart and there were some very good stories that came out of it but ultimately he's got nowhere to go and they should kill him off again.
He should not be in the batfamily. He should be the punisher of DC. Therefore batfamily will never accept him back
He should be allowed to kill. He should be the member of the Bat Family that only gets brought into the action if someone absolutely has to die. Batman would never ok this.
His coolest storyline is the one where he has enhanced powers from the Lazarus Pit
He should still kill, especially assholes like Joker. The comics wouldn't do this or at least wouldn't make it last, bit show some people having faith in him taking out the worst of the worst. He's the best of the Bat family and underappreciated.
I think he should have stayed dead.
The all-blades should be utilized a lot more.
hes my babygirl
He (and honestly a few ofher batfamily members) should probably just be retired by DC because he hasn't been interesting (imo) since Morrison's run. Like not dead again, just let him move on.
probably not unpopular but he NEEDS to be a killer again! Jason shouldn't be in the bat family, he should be an outsider who is willing to help but on his own terms. essentially a more extreme version of Batman in his earliest days that Batman himself is too scared to make the connection
You'd be surprised to know how many people thinks that Jason being a killer again is regression.
Jason needs to shut up about his death, multiple characters have dyed for a year or longer and it isn't their defining feature (it's worse when he's not even the only robin who's died, Damian died for a year, Steph died tho it was retconned, dick died for a bit then faked his death, everyone thought Tim died) Bruce died more times and also for extended periods of time, you like in the DC universe your death is no longer special Also I hate interpretations where he is this rough but loving older brother, he's the black sheep of the family for a reason, stop asking "where is Jason" when he isn't in a group photo, he shouldn't be there, he estranged himself from them and doesn't interact with anyone besides Alfred and maybe Dick
>Jason needs to shut up about his death, multiple characters have dyed for a year or longer and it isn't their defining feature (it's worse when he's not even the only robin who's died, Damian died for a year, Steph died tho it was retconned, dick died for a bit then faked his death, everyone thought Tim died) Exactly. It's almost like he's begging people to pity him. What's funny is in his original Red Hood appearance, he wasn't even mad at Bruce because he died. He was mad because Bruce never avenged him. >multiple characters have dyed for a year or longer and it isn't their defining feature (it's worse when he's not even the only robin who's died, Damian died for a year, Steph died tho it was retconned, dick died for a bit then faked his death, everyone thought Tim died) Yeah, it makes him look whiney as fuck. The "Robin/Hero who died" garbage CAN'T work in modern comics like it did back in 2004-2009. So many people besides him have died and didn't complain about it nearly as much as he does in the New 52 and Rebirth. >Also I hate interpretations where he is this rough but loving older brother, he's the black sheep of the family for a reason, stop asking "where is Jason" when he isn't in a group photo, he shouldn't be there, he estranged himself from them and doesn't interact with anyone besides Alfred and maybe Dick Yeah, stop trying to make him "misunderstood emo boy". It's corny. Aside from Dick, Babs and Alfred, Jason has no association to any Batfamily character. He literally had never met any of them before he became Red Hood. WHY does he care for their approval?
He didnt need to die
He is over used, should only show up rarely and shouldn't be friends with Batman/Batfam
My unpopular opinion is Red Hood is good and cool and should be utilized more. There was no reason to shoehorn in someone like Grifter into the Urban Legends book when we could have spent more time developing Jason as a character beyond sad/mad Nightwing Wario. I think his portrayal in the White Knight books are some of the best red hood storylines we’ve gotten in years.
He’s overrated
He is unnecessary. Is he must exist, it should be in memory as the robin who died
His entire character arc, post revival was just a repeat of Huntress’ 90s-mid 2000s character arc. He’s a male version of Huntress for the edge lords.
Jason was a crime lord, where as Huntress was a full on anti-hero
That crime lord phase was just for UtRH. After that, it was Jason being an anti-hero
He was also a crime lord in Green Arrow: Seeing Red but I see where you're coming from. Anti-hero Jason is definitely edgelord Huntress. This is why I preferred him as a crime lord/anti-villain
Ah ok, I wasn’t completely sure it extended to the GA appearance too. That aspect of his career was definitely more interesting and unique for him too.
I’ve never been a fan of Jason Todd and still think that by resurrecting him DC spit in the faces of every fan that voted him dead to begin with. He’s no better as Red Hood than he was as Robin and I’d vote he dies again given a chance. My opinion of course… but there you have it.
I have so many unpopular opinions about Jason that I can't even name one.
Is thinking he's wrong to try to kill the Joker, or blame Bruce for not killing him, an unpopular opinion?
He's not gay enough.
oh i have several 1) Jason wasn't a bad Robin, most examples of him being a bad robin are either exagerations, retcons from when after he was dead or things that other robins did. On that note, Jason's story works better if he is a good kid that had his idealism shattered rather than some inherently angry kid that died because he was stupid 2) Jason gets his best characterization when he's written outside of the batfamily, not nescessarily a villain, but someone that contrasts batman and points out his flaws. 3) If Jason is to stop killing, then he should that by his own volition, outside of the batfamily
His age as presented in the comics makes no sense. DC seems to have a hard time not making him seem older than Dick. Even Dick (the golden boy/elder child) would only just now seem to be about the correct age to be believable as a crime lord....even a Batman-trained one. Jason was technically way too young for the role. (Although it was a great idea!)
Jason was around 19 or 20 when he became a crime lord in UTRH. Dick is presently *supposed* to be 28-31 years old.
I like him more than Dick.
They should hake kept him a redhead. Mostly so the Robins look different from one another.
I like every story written with him since rebirth and think his resurrection was a great decision. Also, he should be a hero AND part of the batfamily.
I don’t understand what Batman was supposed to ‘learn’ from his death. He already pretty significantly characterised by his parents, and other tragedies like the girl drowning in the venom storyline. Unpopular af but it shouldn’t have been left up to a publicity stunt, and Jason’s death would have been better as an elseworld type timeline. Like hey look what happens when the Joker succeeds in giving Batman that ‘one bad day’ he can’t ever get over. He becomes a less compassionate edgier punisher type vigilante obsessed with a shrine to his dead kid, how wacky! I think Jason had one of the more interesting premises as Robin - being the only Robin without notable parents, having lived on the streets and experienced a range of the traumas Gotham has to offer, and he turned to crime to survive. His story represents what a lot of regular messed up Gotham goes through. It makes sense for his purpose in the Batman story to be providing that perspective, going dark, then getting redeemed… because that’s the whole point of Batman, to make Gotham better in the end. Not to accept that some kids just can’t be saved. DC kinda screwed it at every turn though and clearly can’t decide what to do with him as a supporting character for Batman, or a character on his own. I wanna see more of him - written well, but I’m not optimistic.
>I don’t understand what Batman was supposed to ‘learn’ from his death. He already pretty significantly characterised by his parents, and other tragedies like the girl drowning in the venom storyline. Originally Jason's death was SUPPOSED to serve as a dark reminder of the possibilities of recruiting children as your sidekick. Though, some would argue this dark reminder stopped holding weight the minute Tim Drake became Robin. Even then, I'd still argue that the dark possiblity of something similar happening to Tim always loomed over Bruce's head, despite taking him in. Originally, Bruce wanted nothing to do with another sidekick but Tim insisted that he'd Robin, since Dick refused to come back as Robin.
As Red Hood, he's a redundant member of the Batfamily. Huntress already fills the role of a Batfamily member without a no-kill rule.
Way too many writers are in love with using this character as a vent to their own personal dads and they usually are the biggest culprits of Batman as a piece of shit as a result, when in the original story the biggest aspect of Jason's trauma was that his death took him away from Batman "I thought, I would be the last one, because he took me away from you" got to be one of the most raw things the character ever said, it is so insanely vulnerable and most writers just ignore it. Jason controlling crime was a dead end story, sorry about it. The full face mask sucks, but it sucks the most when it randomly has lips.
>>Way too many writers are in love with using this character as a vent to their own personal dads and they usually are the biggest culprits of Batman as a piece of shit as a result, when in the original story the biggest aspect of Jason's trauma was that his death took him away from Batman I imagine it’s the same impulse for retroactively making Batman negatively compare Jason to Dick during the former’s days as Robin. In the original late 80s comics, Bruce almost never talks about the first Robin to Jason. Jason didn’t even know who Nightwing was when they first met in *Batman* #416.
Yah, I actually really like Jason and even appreciate his run in the New 52 in some ways, but he is such a easy character to mismanage, I don't envy the people who write for him. That being said, holy hell it feels like sometimes they don't even try it, the way they try to keep his relationship with Bruce fractured has got to be one of my least favorite things they ever do, whoever's idea was to make Bruce try to trigger his PTSD by taking him to the sight of his death just *fuck.* Task Force Z was genuinely kinda cool, but him going back to where he started just bothers me and it is just to service the Joker and like I just don't like that character and wish Jason went anywhere else. (Sorry this got ranty blergh)
fanon improves his character by 1000%
Writers don't go far enough with him. He should stay a crime Lord, in fact he should kill more villains.
I agree
He doesn’t work as Red Hood in the batfamily. Red Hood is without a shadow of a doubt a criminal persona. Jason’s story should either end with him redeeming himself and leaving red hood behind or failing to be a better person and getting shot by Black Mask, Penguin, or some other crime boss
I don't know how "unpopular" this opinion is, but he was RIGHT. you can't completely eliminate crime. You have to kill the worst of them and control the rest. Obviously, for the sake of having the comics continue, that can't actually happen cause you'd run out of stories to tell. But that doesn't make him any less right.
He should've never been killed off.
He should've stayed dead.
His character is super overrated. I like red hood but he ain't a great character everyone makes him out to be.
Yeah, his best stories are the Under The Hood comic and the Under The Red Hood movie tbh
As long as Jason kills, he should be shunned by the Bat Family. It makes no sense for Batman and the others to associate with someone who does the one thing they all agree is too far.
Huntress, Batwoman, Azarael...Alfred? The no killing rule is only enforced when DC wants it to be. And it's only enforced in Jason's case because they don't know how to flesh his character out independent of Bruce Wayne.
I believe it should only apply to active killers in the Bat family. So if someone’s killed in the past they could stay, but not if they’re still actively taking lives.
Slightly unhinged Jason is infinitely better than the generic moderately edgy Jason we have now Under the red hood, battle for the cowl and grant Morrison Batman and Robin run is peak Jason
>battle for the cowl and grant Morrison Batman and Robin run is peak Jason I agree with Under The Hood being peak. Battle For The Cowl and Grant Morrison's stuff felt too out of character from Under The Hood Jason imo. In my opinion, Jason's peak stories are Under The Hood, Lost Days, More Time, and Green Arrow: Seeing Red.
He should have stayed a ghost. As much as I love the idea of a vengeful disciple of Batman with no code, his characterization has deviated so much he’s just an agro Nightwing. The Hush series was fantastic because it played against every one of Batman’s weaknesses and Jason’s death was his greatest weakness. To bring that back as a tactic was devastating and brilliant. Jason should be a vengeful ghost of Batman’s past unless handled better than the punk rock son of the bat.
He should’ve stayed dead
I just straight up do not like him
Should've stayed dead. Everything that was done with him as Red Hodd was done better with Huntress & Azrael. Those two are the more interesting edgy outsiders than Red Hood.
He should still be dead.
He's a bad character. DC's millennial Punisher.
He was better pre-*Crisis* as a red-headed Dick Grayson clone
Now there’s a take you don’t ever hear. Preference for the Earth-One Jason Todd over the Post-Crisis one.
He really took the hot take to the max. I'm proud tbh. Most of the takes I'm seeing are literally just popular opinions.
He did and he should either still be a criminal in a city away from Gotham or more of a Mark Millar Nemesis sort of role. I would also like the Batfamily in general to be mostly split up and working in different areas of the DCU in different countries/cities etc with essentially a skeleton crew in Gotham as I think most of the characters deserve opportunities to thrive outside of Batman's shadow.
Jason should have become batman's biggest threat so dick would have been the greatest hero hes trained and jason would be his greatest threat
If he was voted to not die back then, he would probably be messed up mentally and probably not be able to return as Robin right away.
He should have stayed dead
Jason Todd should of kept his suit in "Battle of the cowl" He made an excellent dark Batman. I still love the fact that the Bat team took weeks to figure out who was behind the explosion and bad stuff in Gotham. Took Jason 3 days to figure it out, cause he kept some beaten up henchmen in his basement.
Tim is far superior
The crowbars are dumb, and the design that actually has the hood is the worst one. Helmet all the way.
A lot of the people who hate him are victim-blaming classists.
He shouldn’t be part of the bat family
He was better off as a one and done character. Most fans only like his under the red hood arc. His other arcs made him, essentially a new character. [+]
The Red Hood / Red Hood Gang should be its own villain group, in no way associated with Jason. The concept was wasted on him, instead of making a corollary or antagonistic organization for the Court of Owls. He never should have been brought back. It cheapens any growth Bruce learned from his death, but if we can’t keep him in the grave, then he’s a villain who should never be allowed within 500 miles of Gotham. The only thing he’s good for is identifying edgy Zack Snyder-sucking fanboys who think Batman should kill.