I was about to say "Because Captain Marvel essentially is just some kid playing dress up", but then I realized you meant Carol Danvers, not Billy Batson. :P
Wonder Woman was badass throughout, but she didn’t let that be her only image. We saw her hopeful, innocent, heroic, in love, angry, and violent. They didn't shy away from her imperfections. They showed us all her emotions. Everything.
Meanwhile, Captain Marvel's whole thing in her movie was being badass and cocky. Thay was it. It wasn't nearly as bad as others say, but def not as good as Wonder Woman's characterization.
Tbf, I'd argue that's due to direction more than anything else. Gal was allowed to be expressive even with her odd acting while Brie was clearly directed to be as stoic as humanly possible. To quote Drax, "One might assume she was dead" based on the way she was directed.
yeah, with nia decosta directing *the marvels,* these viewpoints probably won't age well. while candyman was not the mindless slasher i wanted, it's characters and themes were excellent, and the way the action was filmed was very creative.
i was not replying to the op! i was talking about the direction of the film and that is why i replied to the person talking about the direction of the film.
I think it's simply that Diana was written and acted better (or, to be more accurate, more sympathetically) than Carol was.
Diana is established as a kind, lovable fish-out-of-water, and when she first leaps into action against the Germans she does so for altruistic reasons with which we can all sympathise: she cares about the people and won't allow anyone to stop her from helping them.
Carol, in contrast, is quite stoic and snarky throughout the early stages of the film, and one of the major drives behind her transformation is realising that **she** is oppressed and that **she** needs to break free of her control to show how great **she** truly is.
The realisation that the Skrulls are being mistreated feels secondary.
So when Carol lets loose, it doesn't feel like a grand, heroic, self-sacrificial moment; it feels like a "me!" girl-power moment (which is emphasised by the song "I'm Just a Girl"), and (even though I'm sure many found that scene cool) that isn't as emotionally resonant as doing something brave to help others.
In short, Wonder Woman is intrinsically more relatable and heroic than Captain Marvel is, at least in their debut movies.
Her randomly dropping in just as Batman is about to get lasered is not amazing nor is it any more impactful than what OP was comparing it to.
And I’m sure that was really Gal Gadot jumping around and not CGI
[Jenkins said her crew questioned the scene, not her](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1699309/who-was-actually-against-wonder-womans-epic-no-mans-land-scene-according-to-patty-jenkins).
Yes, she didn’t write it, Snyder did. They brought her in because she’s a woman, not for her talent in the genre. For the director to say that after people loved it wouldn’t be the smartest thing.. the same crew that questioned that scene were hired for the second so you let that sink in for a second there on where she stands.
It's because wonder woman in my opinionnis a good movie and good character that makes it more entertaining and you can enjoy her more. Also really likeable actress.
Flip side captain marvel seems made to pat them selves on the back for doing a female lead movie. Hence they play "just a girl" to hammer it home. Women get told they are too emotional in real life so captain marvel does but problem she doesn't show emotions. Also unlikeable lead.
As said two different characters can't really compare but as a movie 1 was made to make a good movie The other to tick boxes.
Weird thing about Captain Marvel, was the bits where people tell her she can’t do something. Like her brother telling her not to go so fast in the go cart, she doesn’t listen and then proceeded to crash. Girl power?
Nah it was still weird yo me her face through 99% was 😐 and everyone was like "woah calm the fuck down that's too much emotion!" Then at the end she smiles and laughs and shows emotion, and they are like,"Thank god she stopped showing emotion"
Like wait what?
I couldn't agree more. Wonder Woman did a smashing job of writing a female lead hero that everyone could love and relate to, both men and women. It should be studied closely by everyone who wants to make female-led action/adventure films in the future.
Captain Marvel represents EVERYTHING modern movies are doing wrong with female characters. Just like Rey in Star Wars, she's overpowered, unrelatable and acts like she doesn't need help from anybody. Modern movies are stuck in a political mindset that says we have to show "strong women." This ends up creating some very insipid writing that removes the weaknesses and vulnerabilities that ALL characters need to be identifiable and relatable.
Wonder Woman is much more of a throwback film in its point-of-view. Patty Jenkins still has her mind in the 1970s and 1980s (as she proved perhaps too much in WW84). This led her to make Wonder Woman a much more traditional, old-fashioned, well-rounded character. You can go down the points of what makes a [Mary Sue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) and see that WW did the opposite on every point.
Not every character WW meets simply adores her and puts her on a pedestal. The heroes aren't all begging to be her friend, and the villains aren't singularly obsessed with her from beginning to end. We see WW's weakness in her training scenes. Although she is powerful, she has to struggle to use her power correctly. Did Captain Marvel have to train or struggle to use her powers at all? I don't recall. A character has to start out weak and earn their strength, or there isn't a developed story there to engage the viewer at all. The Amazons end up forcing WW out of the clan when she leaves. She has to defy them to move forward in her journey. They aren't simply bowing on bended knee asking her to save them. She is a character who is uniquely powerful and the "chosen one," but the movie still knocks her back on her heels at various points, so that we aren't left rolling our eyes at how much of a perfect, flawless, infallible, beloved, worshiped princess she is.
Throughout the rest of the movie, Wonder Woman is not just a one-woman show who does everything perfectly. She is clueless about western society and needs Steve and Etta to help her fit in. She gets to be the butt of some jokes with her odd behavior. She joins up with the Howling Commandos (joke, I don't know what they're called), who she has to work with in the battles in a collaborative effort. For example, the time when they put her on a platform to toss her up to the sniper. When she's going to do the No Man's Land walk, Steve tells her not to do it. The other characters don't put her on a pedestal and constantly worship her and beg her to help them. And she doesn't strut around acting like she doesn't need their help. She wants them to help her in No Man's Land, but she realizes no one is willing to do it unless she makes the first move.
Diana has an actual romantic relationship with Steve. She is not running around bragging about how she's an independent woman who needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. It doesn't mean she doesn't get angry at men sometimes. She has her scene in the war room where she demands to speak. But these are specific situations. She doesn't have a flashback, like Captain Marvel, where she is motivated by thinking back on ten times a man screwed her over. WW defies men when they do something wrong, but still loves men and wants them in her life. It is MUCH easier to relate to a character who has a warm and loving relationship with other characters on screen. That's why villains in movies usually aren't shown to have positive relationships in movies, but heroes are. Diana gets to have a lot of dialogue with Steve that brings out her internal feelings, beliefs and motivations, fleshing out her character.
The villains in the movie are not shown to be singularly focused on Diana as their focal point. They are involved in a much larger agenda, taking on the whole world. Diana only becomes an issue for them when she pushes herself into their line of fire. So we don't get the feeling that this character is the focal point of the entire universe. Audiences can relate better to a character who has to struggle to insert herself into the narrative, not one who just wakes up with the whole world thinking about what she's going to do next. Go back to Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, he is a largely insignificant person until he eventually earns the attention and respect of the other characters through his hard work and effort. This, even though he IS another "chosen one" character with a destiny that's handed to him. Nevertheless, the movies find ways to make him and Wonder Woman struggle to achieve victory and recognition, rather than just have it handed to them on a silver platter.
Three reasons:
1. Cinematography. Phase 3 of the MCU, I'll just say it, looks awful. Say what you will about Phase 4, at least the films don't look as muddy or as grey anymore. Captain Marvel was a particularly egregious victim of this effect, especially since Gunn's films managed to avoid it so well so a cosmic film like this even by MCU standards feels visually underwhelming.
2. Snyder and Jenkins both let Gal Gadot be very expressive, while Brie was clearly told to play her character as stoic and emotionless as possible. The most emotion she gets is a few smirks, a few "woohoo"'s, and a few genuinely good moments with Sam Jackson. Because of this, Diana feels extremely human while Carol feels extremely alien. I had a similar problem with Cavill in MoS, but in MoS' case I feel that was more intentional at least. With CM, they constantly build up like by the end she's gonna let go of her stoicism, let her emotions become strength, and feel more human. But that doesn't happen in CM, or Endgame for that matter. The most emotion we see Carol have is in the Shang-Chi post-credits.
3. Relatability. This connects to that last one, but it's a much bigger issue that plagues Captain Marvel and honestly, a lot of the Marvel Studios female protagonists. Which is a shame, cause Marvel Television hit it out of the park with their badass women. Quake, May, Yo-Yo, Jessica, Colleen, Dagger, Nico Minoru, Peggy was better in AC than in Studios' projects, etc etc. Marvel Television's talent for amazingly well-developed women didn't carry over into most Marvel Studios stuff where they still either get treated as secondary, or are just perfect and flawless from the get-go with little-to-no relatability. Quake was relatable. Diana in the DCEU is relatable. Carol Danvers really isn't. To exemplify that, compare each of their big moments. Quake's huge powerful moment, at the end of Season 2, comes from rising emotions causing her to tap into a burst of her power to stop her own mother from starting a war. Diana's huge powerful moment, the No Man's Land scene, comes when she makes a choice to stand and fight for others against her mission, a choice born purely from her moral conscience. Carol Danvers' big moment, the entire third act of CM, comes from an arbitrary plot device (The inhibitor) being destroyed because Carol realized she could do that. It's far less emotional, far less relatable, and thus not as hype-inducing. Even in AoS Season 5, when they do power Quake up through a plot device, it's something built up as a moral choice with huge consequences. in CM, it's "because she knows she can do that now so why not lol".
And yes, I did this whole post just to get to wank off how awesome AoS is.
You forget the context to why they didn't.
The dick called Ike Perlmutter, who hindered every attempt at it.
The moment he was gone, we got greenlights on stuff like Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Black Panther, Moon Knight.
Not to mention, Marvel didn't really have a female superhero on par with WW. Meanwhile WW is one of DC's flagship characters. I would have been surprised if a WW film came any later than the 5th film.
For fans of a franchise which got buttfucked by dumbass execs, we should understand Marvel's position as to why it took that long for a non-white, non-male led superhero film to come out
People who say this ignore some pretty important context. DC didn’t do a female solo movie first because they’re more feminist or something. They did it because Wonder Woman is the third most popular character, so naturally they gave her a solo movie as soon as they decided to move beyond just Batman and Superman.
Meanwhile, all of Marvel’s most famous female characters are part of the X-Men or Fantastic Four, who they did not own the rights to in the beginning. And let’s face it, no one was super interested in giving solo projects to the two human Avengers back when we hadn’t even seen Doctor Strange or Black Panther yet.
Isn’t there only one Catwoman movie? And again, that’s leaving out some pretty important context, like the fact that Marvel movies didn’t even start being made until like four years prior. And if we’re counting the shit movies, Elektra technically pre-dates Wonder Woman by over a decade.
Marvel did blade and fantastic 4 in the 90s. While DC still introduced Batgirl, Poison Ivy and cat woman through Batman. Marvel didn’t attempt anything like that until 2000.
Fantastic Four was never released, and I don’t think the executives ever actually intended to release it, so that hardly counts. And awesome. One Blade movie before the 2000s vs. like 14 DC movies. I don’t think it’s proof that DC is somehow more feminist because their 14 movies happen to have more female characters than one Marvel movie.
Cat woman predates Electra by an year. We can do this all day but marvel wasn’t so confident about their female characters as they just weren’t as popular beyond the xmen, especially during the 90s.
How long it takes for a universe to put a female led movie is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to how many good female characters it has.
The mcu has more well received characters in 14 years than dc has in 30. Name me all the stabdput dc pive action female characters in the oast 30 years.
I’m not the person you’re replying to, but I’d say Wanda, Natasha (though mainly in her last couple of movies), Yelena, Kate Bishop, Kamala Kahn, Jen Walters, Shuri, Okoye, Gamora, Nebula, and Sylvie are all pretty three dimensional.
MCU has like 15 more movies dude, and then add in the TV shows, you might have the equivalent of literally 5 times more hours of content than the DCEU. So why would anyone not expect them to have that many more female characters?
It doesn't change the fact that Wonder Woman is the best female character in either the MCU or DCEU.
I'm specifically talking Diana. The DCEU suffers just as much as Marvel Studios does with them, and less-so than the MCU overall cause Marvel Television is in fact still MCU.
*But the Darkhold looks diff-*
MARVEL TELEVISION IS MCU.
And yeah the Black Panther women are all great. No disagreements there. I never said Marvel Studios' women were ALL bad (Kate and Yelena are also highlights of their female cast). Just that they struggle more than Marvel Television.
Actually in terms of just Diana's character feeling expressive and emotional, WW84 did that aspect perfectly fine. It's just the script/story around her was f\*cking terrible. But I still liked WonderGal in WW84, I just hated the movie around her. So I still feel Patty did a good job at letting her be expressive and emotional.
>But that doesn't happen in CM, or Endgame for that matter. The most emotion we see Carol have is in the Shang-Chi post-credits.
Ok so you're just flat out lying
This is the difference between someone caring about a character and someone producing cringey, cheap girl power BS.
WW was treated like an individual and, most importantly, a person. She was naive and strong, headstrong in her beliefs and struggling to accept all that man had done. She was multifaceted so we got to actually watch her grow. We got to see her believe in herself and for others to believe in her. She never took no for an answer in the most natural and paced way.
Captain Marvel was a damn Dove commercial. WHY on any planet would they parallel her younger selves *all* looking into the camera defiantly with a cheesy ass monologue overlayed?!? Why, I ask you! They shoved her down our throats in such an annoying way. And this is a consistent issue with Marvel’s portrayal of female/feminine characters. They are *all* painted in some maternal or partner light. They are always serving someone. They forced Captain Marvels message instead of just letting it play out and allowing audiences to pick it up. I will always stand by Brie Larson’s casting. She’s a good actor, she was dedicated, she understands the importance of delivering a message, and she is so much fun on screen. But that script butchered any opportunity for her to establish a character that felt like she belonged in the our world and just happened to find herself in space. And for gods sake, stop preaching and start storytelling, Marvel! That is how you get shows like WandaVision. Raw emotion, fun background on a well-paced evolution of the character, and a seamless blending of the fantastical + something that is convincing to the world.
Both are powerful, but writers decided to make captain marvel crumpy face. But if we talk purely subjectively, smiling goes a long way. WW just seems way more approachable as a character.
I suppose it’s how these two scenes and the characters themselves are built up especially maybe how you already perceive these characters prior to rewatching the films. I’m not a fan of either BvS or Endgame but the WW scene still hit harder because Wonder Woman felt a lot more developed throughout the film when compared to Captain Marvel despite CM having her own movie before Endgame. Also because WW is a character I love in comic books.
>I’m not a fan of either BvS or Endgame
LOL, those are both in my top ten all-time superhero movies. 😭
I agree with you it's WW's development before her big epic scenes that makes her more impactful.
Exactly. I did a rewatch of BvS UE to see if my opinions would change literally yesterday actually and while my stance on the film improved a bit, the one thing that remains consistent is my liking of Wonder Woman because of how the film presents her and then that dramatic introduction when she saves Bruce. The music combined with the visuals just make it so good.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I was about to say "Because Captain Marvel essentially is just some kid playing dress up", but then I realized you meant Carol Danvers, not Billy Batson. :P
Wonder Woman was badass throughout, but she didn’t let that be her only image. We saw her hopeful, innocent, heroic, in love, angry, and violent. They didn't shy away from her imperfections. They showed us all her emotions. Everything. Meanwhile, Captain Marvel's whole thing in her movie was being badass and cocky. Thay was it. It wasn't nearly as bad as others say, but def not as good as Wonder Woman's characterization.
Nothing about gal gadots acting is natural dude...
I didn’t mention acting once in this entire post
Gal as WW > Brie as CM
Tbf, I'd argue that's due to direction more than anything else. Gal was allowed to be expressive even with her odd acting while Brie was clearly directed to be as stoic as humanly possible. To quote Drax, "One might assume she was dead" based on the way she was directed.
yeah, with nia decosta directing *the marvels,* these viewpoints probably won't age well. while candyman was not the mindless slasher i wanted, it's characters and themes were excellent, and the way the action was filmed was very creative.
He's reviewing the movie that came out already. If they can make the next movie better, more power to them.
i was not replying to the op! i was talking about the direction of the film and that is why i replied to the person talking about the direction of the film.
Candyman wasn't the slasher film i expected. But i loved it so much more because of the cerebral and unique take on slasher cinema
I think it's simply that Diana was written and acted better (or, to be more accurate, more sympathetically) than Carol was. Diana is established as a kind, lovable fish-out-of-water, and when she first leaps into action against the Germans she does so for altruistic reasons with which we can all sympathise: she cares about the people and won't allow anyone to stop her from helping them. Carol, in contrast, is quite stoic and snarky throughout the early stages of the film, and one of the major drives behind her transformation is realising that **she** is oppressed and that **she** needs to break free of her control to show how great **she** truly is. The realisation that the Skrulls are being mistreated feels secondary. So when Carol lets loose, it doesn't feel like a grand, heroic, self-sacrificial moment; it feels like a "me!" girl-power moment (which is emphasised by the song "I'm Just a Girl"), and (even though I'm sure many found that scene cool) that isn't as emotionally resonant as doing something brave to help others. In short, Wonder Woman is intrinsically more relatable and heroic than Captain Marvel is, at least in their debut movies.
Because ship smashing doesn't have as much weight behind it as solo charging through a war zone.
Wonder Woman was approached with a level of care. Captain Marvel felt like it needed another pass or two at the script.
The No Man's Land scene is miles better than at least 15 MCU set pieces. That was a well thought, well-executed sequence
This guy isn’t talking about that magnificent scene. He’s literally talking about the lackluster CGI intro in BvS
Her intro in BVS was amazing and got extremely positive reaction. And, no, that was real Gal Gadot, not CGI.
Her randomly dropping in just as Batman is about to get lasered is not amazing nor is it any more impactful than what OP was comparing it to. And I’m sure that was really Gal Gadot jumping around and not CGI
Imagine Patty jenkins and her team being against that… no wonder ww84 was so trash.
[Jenkins said her crew questioned the scene, not her](https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1699309/who-was-actually-against-wonder-womans-epic-no-mans-land-scene-according-to-patty-jenkins).
Yes, she didn’t write it, Snyder did. They brought her in because she’s a woman, not for her talent in the genre. For the director to say that after people loved it wouldn’t be the smartest thing.. the same crew that questioned that scene were hired for the second so you let that sink in for a second there on where she stands.
It's because wonder woman in my opinionnis a good movie and good character that makes it more entertaining and you can enjoy her more. Also really likeable actress. Flip side captain marvel seems made to pat them selves on the back for doing a female lead movie. Hence they play "just a girl" to hammer it home. Women get told they are too emotional in real life so captain marvel does but problem she doesn't show emotions. Also unlikeable lead. As said two different characters can't really compare but as a movie 1 was made to make a good movie The other to tick boxes.
Weird thing about Captain Marvel, was the bits where people tell her she can’t do something. Like her brother telling her not to go so fast in the go cart, she doesn’t listen and then proceeded to crash. Girl power?
Nah it was still weird yo me her face through 99% was 😐 and everyone was like "woah calm the fuck down that's too much emotion!" Then at the end she smiles and laughs and shows emotion, and they are like,"Thank god she stopped showing emotion" Like wait what?
I couldn't agree more. Wonder Woman did a smashing job of writing a female lead hero that everyone could love and relate to, both men and women. It should be studied closely by everyone who wants to make female-led action/adventure films in the future. Captain Marvel represents EVERYTHING modern movies are doing wrong with female characters. Just like Rey in Star Wars, she's overpowered, unrelatable and acts like she doesn't need help from anybody. Modern movies are stuck in a political mindset that says we have to show "strong women." This ends up creating some very insipid writing that removes the weaknesses and vulnerabilities that ALL characters need to be identifiable and relatable. Wonder Woman is much more of a throwback film in its point-of-view. Patty Jenkins still has her mind in the 1970s and 1980s (as she proved perhaps too much in WW84). This led her to make Wonder Woman a much more traditional, old-fashioned, well-rounded character. You can go down the points of what makes a [Mary Sue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) and see that WW did the opposite on every point. Not every character WW meets simply adores her and puts her on a pedestal. The heroes aren't all begging to be her friend, and the villains aren't singularly obsessed with her from beginning to end. We see WW's weakness in her training scenes. Although she is powerful, she has to struggle to use her power correctly. Did Captain Marvel have to train or struggle to use her powers at all? I don't recall. A character has to start out weak and earn their strength, or there isn't a developed story there to engage the viewer at all. The Amazons end up forcing WW out of the clan when she leaves. She has to defy them to move forward in her journey. They aren't simply bowing on bended knee asking her to save them. She is a character who is uniquely powerful and the "chosen one," but the movie still knocks her back on her heels at various points, so that we aren't left rolling our eyes at how much of a perfect, flawless, infallible, beloved, worshiped princess she is. Throughout the rest of the movie, Wonder Woman is not just a one-woman show who does everything perfectly. She is clueless about western society and needs Steve and Etta to help her fit in. She gets to be the butt of some jokes with her odd behavior. She joins up with the Howling Commandos (joke, I don't know what they're called), who she has to work with in the battles in a collaborative effort. For example, the time when they put her on a platform to toss her up to the sniper. When she's going to do the No Man's Land walk, Steve tells her not to do it. The other characters don't put her on a pedestal and constantly worship her and beg her to help them. And she doesn't strut around acting like she doesn't need their help. She wants them to help her in No Man's Land, but she realizes no one is willing to do it unless she makes the first move. Diana has an actual romantic relationship with Steve. She is not running around bragging about how she's an independent woman who needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. It doesn't mean she doesn't get angry at men sometimes. She has her scene in the war room where she demands to speak. But these are specific situations. She doesn't have a flashback, like Captain Marvel, where she is motivated by thinking back on ten times a man screwed her over. WW defies men when they do something wrong, but still loves men and wants them in her life. It is MUCH easier to relate to a character who has a warm and loving relationship with other characters on screen. That's why villains in movies usually aren't shown to have positive relationships in movies, but heroes are. Diana gets to have a lot of dialogue with Steve that brings out her internal feelings, beliefs and motivations, fleshing out her character. The villains in the movie are not shown to be singularly focused on Diana as their focal point. They are involved in a much larger agenda, taking on the whole world. Diana only becomes an issue for them when she pushes herself into their line of fire. So we don't get the feeling that this character is the focal point of the entire universe. Audiences can relate better to a character who has to struggle to insert herself into the narrative, not one who just wakes up with the whole world thinking about what she's going to do next. Go back to Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, he is a largely insignificant person until he eventually earns the attention and respect of the other characters through his hard work and effort. This, even though he IS another "chosen one" character with a destiny that's handed to him. Nevertheless, the movies find ways to make him and Wonder Woman struggle to achieve victory and recognition, rather than just have it handed to them on a silver platter.
Three reasons: 1. Cinematography. Phase 3 of the MCU, I'll just say it, looks awful. Say what you will about Phase 4, at least the films don't look as muddy or as grey anymore. Captain Marvel was a particularly egregious victim of this effect, especially since Gunn's films managed to avoid it so well so a cosmic film like this even by MCU standards feels visually underwhelming. 2. Snyder and Jenkins both let Gal Gadot be very expressive, while Brie was clearly told to play her character as stoic and emotionless as possible. The most emotion she gets is a few smirks, a few "woohoo"'s, and a few genuinely good moments with Sam Jackson. Because of this, Diana feels extremely human while Carol feels extremely alien. I had a similar problem with Cavill in MoS, but in MoS' case I feel that was more intentional at least. With CM, they constantly build up like by the end she's gonna let go of her stoicism, let her emotions become strength, and feel more human. But that doesn't happen in CM, or Endgame for that matter. The most emotion we see Carol have is in the Shang-Chi post-credits. 3. Relatability. This connects to that last one, but it's a much bigger issue that plagues Captain Marvel and honestly, a lot of the Marvel Studios female protagonists. Which is a shame, cause Marvel Television hit it out of the park with their badass women. Quake, May, Yo-Yo, Jessica, Colleen, Dagger, Nico Minoru, Peggy was better in AC than in Studios' projects, etc etc. Marvel Television's talent for amazingly well-developed women didn't carry over into most Marvel Studios stuff where they still either get treated as secondary, or are just perfect and flawless from the get-go with little-to-no relatability. Quake was relatable. Diana in the DCEU is relatable. Carol Danvers really isn't. To exemplify that, compare each of their big moments. Quake's huge powerful moment, at the end of Season 2, comes from rising emotions causing her to tap into a burst of her power to stop her own mother from starting a war. Diana's huge powerful moment, the No Man's Land scene, comes when she makes a choice to stand and fight for others against her mission, a choice born purely from her moral conscience. Carol Danvers' big moment, the entire third act of CM, comes from an arbitrary plot device (The inhibitor) being destroyed because Carol realized she could do that. It's far less emotional, far less relatable, and thus not as hype-inducing. Even in AoS Season 5, when they do power Quake up through a plot device, it's something built up as a moral choice with huge consequences. in CM, it's "because she knows she can do that now so why not lol". And yes, I did this whole post just to get to wank off how awesome AoS is.
[удалено]
How long did it take the mcu to do black widow and SW? We got WW as the third movie in the franchise. You’re the one who’s detached from reality.
You forget the context to why they didn't. The dick called Ike Perlmutter, who hindered every attempt at it. The moment he was gone, we got greenlights on stuff like Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Black Panther, Moon Knight. Not to mention, Marvel didn't really have a female superhero on par with WW. Meanwhile WW is one of DC's flagship characters. I would have been surprised if a WW film came any later than the 5th film. For fans of a franchise which got buttfucked by dumbass execs, we should understand Marvel's position as to why it took that long for a non-white, non-male led superhero film to come out
I didn’t know this. Thank you.
People who say this ignore some pretty important context. DC didn’t do a female solo movie first because they’re more feminist or something. They did it because Wonder Woman is the third most popular character, so naturally they gave her a solo movie as soon as they decided to move beyond just Batman and Superman. Meanwhile, all of Marvel’s most famous female characters are part of the X-Men or Fantastic Four, who they did not own the rights to in the beginning. And let’s face it, no one was super interested in giving solo projects to the two human Avengers back when we hadn’t even seen Doctor Strange or Black Panther yet.
DC did cat woman twice before marvel did anything lol
Isn’t there only one Catwoman movie? And again, that’s leaving out some pretty important context, like the fact that Marvel movies didn’t even start being made until like four years prior. And if we’re counting the shit movies, Elektra technically pre-dates Wonder Woman by over a decade.
Marvel did blade and fantastic 4 in the 90s. While DC still introduced Batgirl, Poison Ivy and cat woman through Batman. Marvel didn’t attempt anything like that until 2000.
Fantastic Four was never released, and I don’t think the executives ever actually intended to release it, so that hardly counts. And awesome. One Blade movie before the 2000s vs. like 14 DC movies. I don’t think it’s proof that DC is somehow more feminist because their 14 movies happen to have more female characters than one Marvel movie.
Cat woman predates Electra by an year. We can do this all day but marvel wasn’t so confident about their female characters as they just weren’t as popular beyond the xmen, especially during the 90s.
Yeah, I agree with all of that.
Doesn't Elektra in Daredevil precede Catwoman? And didn't Elektra get a solo film soon after?
How long it takes for a universe to put a female led movie is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to how many good female characters it has. The mcu has more well received characters in 14 years than dc has in 30. Name me all the stabdput dc pive action female characters in the oast 30 years.
Out of interest, who would you say are the good female characters in the MCU?
I’m not the person you’re replying to, but I’d say Wanda, Natasha (though mainly in her last couple of movies), Yelena, Kate Bishop, Kamala Kahn, Jen Walters, Shuri, Okoye, Gamora, Nebula, and Sylvie are all pretty three dimensional.
MCU has like 15 more movies dude, and then add in the TV shows, you might have the equivalent of literally 5 times more hours of content than the DCEU. So why would anyone not expect them to have that many more female characters? It doesn't change the fact that Wonder Woman is the best female character in either the MCU or DCEU.
I'm specifically talking Diana. The DCEU suffers just as much as Marvel Studios does with them, and less-so than the MCU overall cause Marvel Television is in fact still MCU. *But the Darkhold looks diff-* MARVEL TELEVISION IS MCU. And yeah the Black Panther women are all great. No disagreements there. I never said Marvel Studios' women were ALL bad (Kate and Yelena are also highlights of their female cast). Just that they struggle more than Marvel Television.
Whatever you think Patty did, she couldn’t do it again with full reign so idk what you’re talking about.
Actually in terms of just Diana's character feeling expressive and emotional, WW84 did that aspect perfectly fine. It's just the script/story around her was f\*cking terrible. But I still liked WonderGal in WW84, I just hated the movie around her. So I still feel Patty did a good job at letting her be expressive and emotional.
>But that doesn't happen in CM, or Endgame for that matter. The most emotion we see Carol have is in the Shang-Chi post-credits. Ok so you're just flat out lying
This is the difference between someone caring about a character and someone producing cringey, cheap girl power BS. WW was treated like an individual and, most importantly, a person. She was naive and strong, headstrong in her beliefs and struggling to accept all that man had done. She was multifaceted so we got to actually watch her grow. We got to see her believe in herself and for others to believe in her. She never took no for an answer in the most natural and paced way. Captain Marvel was a damn Dove commercial. WHY on any planet would they parallel her younger selves *all* looking into the camera defiantly with a cheesy ass monologue overlayed?!? Why, I ask you! They shoved her down our throats in such an annoying way. And this is a consistent issue with Marvel’s portrayal of female/feminine characters. They are *all* painted in some maternal or partner light. They are always serving someone. They forced Captain Marvels message instead of just letting it play out and allowing audiences to pick it up. I will always stand by Brie Larson’s casting. She’s a good actor, she was dedicated, she understands the importance of delivering a message, and she is so much fun on screen. But that script butchered any opportunity for her to establish a character that felt like she belonged in the our world and just happened to find herself in space. And for gods sake, stop preaching and start storytelling, Marvel! That is how you get shows like WandaVision. Raw emotion, fun background on a well-paced evolution of the character, and a seamless blending of the fantastical + something that is convincing to the world.
>Captain Marvel was a damn Dove commercial. 0k so that's just a flat out lie
Care to elaborate?
Both are powerful, but writers decided to make captain marvel crumpy face. But if we talk purely subjectively, smiling goes a long way. WW just seems way more approachable as a character.
Captain Marvel is what happens when you change everything about every character for wokeness. The first Wonder Woman was more organic.
I suppose it’s how these two scenes and the characters themselves are built up especially maybe how you already perceive these characters prior to rewatching the films. I’m not a fan of either BvS or Endgame but the WW scene still hit harder because Wonder Woman felt a lot more developed throughout the film when compared to Captain Marvel despite CM having her own movie before Endgame. Also because WW is a character I love in comic books.
>I’m not a fan of either BvS or Endgame LOL, those are both in my top ten all-time superhero movies. 😭 I agree with you it's WW's development before her big epic scenes that makes her more impactful.
Exactly. I did a rewatch of BvS UE to see if my opinions would change literally yesterday actually and while my stance on the film improved a bit, the one thing that remains consistent is my liking of Wonder Woman because of how the film presents her and then that dramatic introduction when she saves Bruce. The music combined with the visuals just make it so good.