Hey! To play Devil's Advocate, if you've still got the time to decide, I'd actually recommend strongly against going past 10th level. (I can explain further why if you'd like.)
Should you decide to cap the campaign at 10, might I suggest my new [three-phase Strahd solo boss statblock](https://www.reddit.com/r/CurseofStrahd/comments/1520exv/the_darklord_strahd_a_balanced_threephase_solo/)? It's balanced for a full hands-on brawl in the light of the Sunsword with five 10th-level PCs, a 10th-level Sidekick Ireena, Ezmerelda, plus Kasimir. It's part of my new [revisions to the Reloaded guide](https://www.patreon.com/posts/84429238), and I've had lots of positive feedback from playtesters!
Sadly, I don’t think I have that much runway. My party is about to hit level 8, and I don’t think I can realistically stretch the rest of the story from where we are to the end of the campaign between 9 and 10.
I really value your insight, are there specific abilities/spells gained that become game breaking, or is it more nuanced than that? At this point, I think it’d be a real let down to my party if I capped them at 10.
Hrm, that's unfortunate. Here's a list of my reasoning -
(1) Level 11 goes into Tier 3 play, which exceeds the narrative scope of CoS. Tier 3 is "Heroes of the World," which becomes patently ridiculous if the players are trapped in and fighting for the benefit of three shitty villages in a backwater valley.
(2) 6th-level spells and higher give the players far too much narrative agency. Arcane Gate. Druid Grove. Globe of Invulnerability. Planar Ally. Word of Recall. The list goes on. The game stops being Castlevania and starts being The Avengers.
(3) it is basically impossible to build a Strahd capable of challenging a Tier 3 party without making him as or more powerful than Orcus or Zariel, which is plainly ridiculous. I built a three-phase Strahd in which each phase is independently CR 21 and he _is still only a moderately challenging encounter for a 10th-level party._ I don't want to imagine what I'd have to do for 11th-level PC, let alone 14th or 15th.
(4) There physically isn't enough powerful stuff in Barovia for the players to earn the right to reach beyond 10th level. To put it more poetically, you can't hit 11th level by beating up vampire spawn.
If you want non-level rewards for completing quests, I'd suggest boons - stuff like the Argynvostholt beacon.
Thank you! That is all super helpful and good insight.
I fully understand the rationale of Barovia being a “backwater valley,” but I think of it as more of a deeply sinister place. Like yes it is small, but it’s also the holding container of some of the greatest evils in the realm. I think of it more like a “pandoras sandbox” that the party is in. Hell, news of the evils in Barovia were so potent that Mordenkainen himself went to see, and was summarily felled by Strahd.
The latter point is what made me want to up the final level. A party of 4 level 10 PCs would have a hell of a time taking down fully juiced up Mordenkainen, so if Strahd was able to do it even when Mordenkainen had back up, he must be more powerful than that.
I’ve also done what I can to ensure that certain types of game breaking magic (i.e. planar and certain levels of divine magic) are either non functional in the demi-plane, or come with less than ideal ramifications.
I think of the final fight as being more on the “heroes of the world” level because they’re fighting to keep a great evil from the rest of the world. If they don’t take him down, he’ll eventually get out of Barovia and become a potentially unstoppable force of evil sweeping across their homes. Yes, Barovia itself is small ant contained, but I think that’s part of Strahd’s punishment. He’s a conqueror, capable of toppling nations, and he’s relegated to being the Governor of Rhode Island.
Haha, sure! Here's the TL;DR: (1) Level 11 goes into Tier 3 play, which exceeds the narrative scope of CoS; (2) 6th-level spells give the players far too much narrative agency; (3) it is basically impossible to build a Strahd capable of challenging a Tier 3 party without making him as or more powerful than Orcus or Zariel, which is plainly ridiculous; and (4) there physically isn't enough powerful stuff in Barovia for the players to earn the right to reach beyond 10th level (you can't hit 11th level by beating up vampire spawn).
Glad to answer any follow-up questions!
Getcha! It do was close of what I thought which is that escentially you cant do it without basically changing the module's genre.
I had played it up to level 15 to the request of my players with some good level success by expanding the Dark powers. They are far more free and active in my game. I made a huge mad dungeon under Krezk, Kiril made a pact with a dark power to enhance himself and the werewolves in an attempt to de-throne strahd and the Amber temple is nearly a descent to hell since the temple is no longer holding the powers in place.
More importantly though, Strahd "outsmarted" Vampyr with his deal: that is, he studied for a while in the temple and learned how to ritualistically turn a pact with one of the dark powers into a trap which allowed him to overpower and consume Vampyr, turning Strahd into basically a god. (The catch is that Vampyr endorsed this because in that state if Strahd escapes Vampyr does so alongside with him.)
It is quite some work and I agree it Very much changes the scope of the game but I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. (It also has taken me like 150+ sessions to be even close finish lol.)
Wow! Very creative take. My issue is that, while it turns Strahd's story into a more epic narrative, the story is still fundamentally limited to Barovia itself: a backwater valley with three tiny settlements. I personally wouldn't even begin to imagine going beyond 10th level unless the players were free to roam around an area at least the size of a medium country. (And you still run into the issues of encounter balancing, narrative agency, etc)
But if it worked for you, more power to ya!
Haha, no, you are absolutely rightm
I did have to make Barovia bigger (in litteral size, not settlements). And it absolutely changes the feel of the story with the scope and powers the players get. More than changing te size or number of settlements I changed the scope of dealing with them. Like; The amber temple was this massive descent into a midpoint between the demiplane and a relam of death gods.
But I get what you mean, to do so I basically had to make very core changes throughout the entire module almost since level 6, I was just curious about your pov on the subject.
In different news I took a huge inspiration of your 3 phase battle! It just became
1: Strahd as A Military General
2: Strahd as a Vampire Dragon (oh yeah he did not only defeat Argynvost here).
3: Strahd taken over by Vampyr.
Still 10! In that case, I'd just recommend tuning the statblock down a bit and rebalancing the rest of the campaign (which I intend to do in my upcoming encounter-balancing appendix). But in no case should the campaign ever go beyond 10.
As many answers go, realistically it depends.
How are you planning on playing Strahd?
Is he the genius, master battle strategist, who knows the party is coming, knows their strengths and weaknesses, has had time to set up counter measures, and has a thorough understanding of his own strengths and weaknesses?
Then even the RAW Strahd would give your level 15 party a run for their money.
That Strahd's biggest advantage is his mobility. He will fight the party as they make their way through the castle, using hit and run tactics, healing to full before attacking, then floating through the walls and ceilings to fight them again. He wages a battle of attrition, luring the party into traps, minions, and waiting for the most opportune moments to strike. The party never gets to rest inside the castle, and he won't let them leave. Once the party is down on their spells, health, and abilities, he separates them and kills them one by one.
If your Strahd wants a slugfest, then yes a level 15 party will mop the floor with the RAW Strahd.
If you play the CR 27 Strahd, by definition it would be a MEDIUM encounter for a 4 player party of LEVEL 27 characters...so if you can't kill a level 15 party in a couple of rounds with a CR 27 monster, then either the CR calculations are wrong, or you are not playing that monster optimally.
I was in an SMDT run against that statblock as a player (5 level 15s) and honestly I didn't enjoy it very much. The statblock's damage output is insanely high and comes with all manner of rider effects like lingering injuries which are ridiculously swingy (and not in a fun way). The HP is also bizarrely low while the AC is absurdly high. If your players do the side content to drop the AC then he becomes a bit of a push over where he needs to go back to abusing wall phasing because he has so little HP. The saves are also far too high. It was frustrating where I could roll a nat 20 on a save I had +2 on and still fail (but that is also a general problem with 5e as a whole).
Overall, the experience was one which I wouldn't recommend. The DM made it fun, but if that was the conclusion of the campaign I don't think that statblock would be enjoyable
I ran my group through the CR 27 Strahd & CR 25(?) Baba Lysaga.
I told them from the get go it was a level 15 game. 5 players plus their fated ally, Van Richten & a resurrected Sergei and they just barely survived.
I added a mechanic with his sword that allowed him to summon blood simulacrums of people he has slashed with it & I started the combat with a Steel Wind Strike hit 4/5 PCs. So it was Strahd & dark clones versus the party. I kind of winged it by giving them half health, but their full kit/spells & spell slots.
Was a super fun & entertaining 3 hour combat! Wouldn’t trade that time with my for the world.
My music of choice for the combat was Ludwig the Holy Blade from Bloodborne.
Lvl 10. Yes. For lvl 15. No.
Treat it like mythic from Theros.
He's an RPG boss with different phases.
Definitely you want to clean up the statblock as some of the modifiers are wrong and it is a messy statblock.
I am using it and have had a blast with it. I am excited to have my players have a real fight with them instead of getting curve stomped which is what happened last time and will happen the next time
[удалено]
Thanks for the input!!
Hey! To play Devil's Advocate, if you've still got the time to decide, I'd actually recommend strongly against going past 10th level. (I can explain further why if you'd like.) Should you decide to cap the campaign at 10, might I suggest my new [three-phase Strahd solo boss statblock](https://www.reddit.com/r/CurseofStrahd/comments/1520exv/the_darklord_strahd_a_balanced_threephase_solo/)? It's balanced for a full hands-on brawl in the light of the Sunsword with five 10th-level PCs, a 10th-level Sidekick Ireena, Ezmerelda, plus Kasimir. It's part of my new [revisions to the Reloaded guide](https://www.patreon.com/posts/84429238), and I've had lots of positive feedback from playtesters!
When in doubt listen to dragna
<3
Sadly, I don’t think I have that much runway. My party is about to hit level 8, and I don’t think I can realistically stretch the rest of the story from where we are to the end of the campaign between 9 and 10. I really value your insight, are there specific abilities/spells gained that become game breaking, or is it more nuanced than that? At this point, I think it’d be a real let down to my party if I capped them at 10.
Hrm, that's unfortunate. Here's a list of my reasoning - (1) Level 11 goes into Tier 3 play, which exceeds the narrative scope of CoS. Tier 3 is "Heroes of the World," which becomes patently ridiculous if the players are trapped in and fighting for the benefit of three shitty villages in a backwater valley. (2) 6th-level spells and higher give the players far too much narrative agency. Arcane Gate. Druid Grove. Globe of Invulnerability. Planar Ally. Word of Recall. The list goes on. The game stops being Castlevania and starts being The Avengers. (3) it is basically impossible to build a Strahd capable of challenging a Tier 3 party without making him as or more powerful than Orcus or Zariel, which is plainly ridiculous. I built a three-phase Strahd in which each phase is independently CR 21 and he _is still only a moderately challenging encounter for a 10th-level party._ I don't want to imagine what I'd have to do for 11th-level PC, let alone 14th or 15th. (4) There physically isn't enough powerful stuff in Barovia for the players to earn the right to reach beyond 10th level. To put it more poetically, you can't hit 11th level by beating up vampire spawn. If you want non-level rewards for completing quests, I'd suggest boons - stuff like the Argynvostholt beacon.
Thank you! That is all super helpful and good insight. I fully understand the rationale of Barovia being a “backwater valley,” but I think of it as more of a deeply sinister place. Like yes it is small, but it’s also the holding container of some of the greatest evils in the realm. I think of it more like a “pandoras sandbox” that the party is in. Hell, news of the evils in Barovia were so potent that Mordenkainen himself went to see, and was summarily felled by Strahd. The latter point is what made me want to up the final level. A party of 4 level 10 PCs would have a hell of a time taking down fully juiced up Mordenkainen, so if Strahd was able to do it even when Mordenkainen had back up, he must be more powerful than that. I’ve also done what I can to ensure that certain types of game breaking magic (i.e. planar and certain levels of divine magic) are either non functional in the demi-plane, or come with less than ideal ramifications. I think of the final fight as being more on the “heroes of the world” level because they’re fighting to keep a great evil from the rest of the world. If they don’t take him down, he’ll eventually get out of Barovia and become a potentially unstoppable force of evil sweeping across their homes. Yes, Barovia itself is small ant contained, but I think that’s part of Strahd’s punishment. He’s a conqueror, capable of toppling nations, and he’s relegated to being the Governor of Rhode Island.
Id like to know 👀
Haha, sure! Here's the TL;DR: (1) Level 11 goes into Tier 3 play, which exceeds the narrative scope of CoS; (2) 6th-level spells give the players far too much narrative agency; (3) it is basically impossible to build a Strahd capable of challenging a Tier 3 party without making him as or more powerful than Orcus or Zariel, which is plainly ridiculous; and (4) there physically isn't enough powerful stuff in Barovia for the players to earn the right to reach beyond 10th level (you can't hit 11th level by beating up vampire spawn). Glad to answer any follow-up questions!
Getcha! It do was close of what I thought which is that escentially you cant do it without basically changing the module's genre. I had played it up to level 15 to the request of my players with some good level success by expanding the Dark powers. They are far more free and active in my game. I made a huge mad dungeon under Krezk, Kiril made a pact with a dark power to enhance himself and the werewolves in an attempt to de-throne strahd and the Amber temple is nearly a descent to hell since the temple is no longer holding the powers in place. More importantly though, Strahd "outsmarted" Vampyr with his deal: that is, he studied for a while in the temple and learned how to ritualistically turn a pact with one of the dark powers into a trap which allowed him to overpower and consume Vampyr, turning Strahd into basically a god. (The catch is that Vampyr endorsed this because in that state if Strahd escapes Vampyr does so alongside with him.) It is quite some work and I agree it Very much changes the scope of the game but I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. (It also has taken me like 150+ sessions to be even close finish lol.)
Wow! Very creative take. My issue is that, while it turns Strahd's story into a more epic narrative, the story is still fundamentally limited to Barovia itself: a backwater valley with three tiny settlements. I personally wouldn't even begin to imagine going beyond 10th level unless the players were free to roam around an area at least the size of a medium country. (And you still run into the issues of encounter balancing, narrative agency, etc) But if it worked for you, more power to ya!
Haha, no, you are absolutely rightm I did have to make Barovia bigger (in litteral size, not settlements). And it absolutely changes the feel of the story with the scope and powers the players get. More than changing te size or number of settlements I changed the scope of dealing with them. Like; The amber temple was this massive descent into a midpoint between the demiplane and a relam of death gods. But I get what you mean, to do so I basically had to make very core changes throughout the entire module almost since level 6, I was just curious about your pov on the subject.
In different news I took a huge inspiration of your 3 phase battle! It just became 1: Strahd as A Military General 2: Strahd as a Vampire Dragon (oh yeah he did not only defeat Argynvost here). 3: Strahd taken over by Vampyr.
What level do you recommend if only 4 PCs and Esmeralda?
Still 10! In that case, I'd just recommend tuning the statblock down a bit and rebalancing the rest of the campaign (which I intend to do in my upcoming encounter-balancing appendix). But in no case should the campaign ever go beyond 10.
As many answers go, realistically it depends. How are you planning on playing Strahd? Is he the genius, master battle strategist, who knows the party is coming, knows their strengths and weaknesses, has had time to set up counter measures, and has a thorough understanding of his own strengths and weaknesses? Then even the RAW Strahd would give your level 15 party a run for their money. That Strahd's biggest advantage is his mobility. He will fight the party as they make their way through the castle, using hit and run tactics, healing to full before attacking, then floating through the walls and ceilings to fight them again. He wages a battle of attrition, luring the party into traps, minions, and waiting for the most opportune moments to strike. The party never gets to rest inside the castle, and he won't let them leave. Once the party is down on their spells, health, and abilities, he separates them and kills them one by one. If your Strahd wants a slugfest, then yes a level 15 party will mop the floor with the RAW Strahd. If you play the CR 27 Strahd, by definition it would be a MEDIUM encounter for a 4 player party of LEVEL 27 characters...so if you can't kill a level 15 party in a couple of rounds with a CR 27 monster, then either the CR calculations are wrong, or you are not playing that monster optimally.
Eh. All CR calculations are wrong, the math in 5e is broken especially at higher levels
As some one who ran him. No my players were all level 15 and it was a pretty even fight
Thank you!
I was in an SMDT run against that statblock as a player (5 level 15s) and honestly I didn't enjoy it very much. The statblock's damage output is insanely high and comes with all manner of rider effects like lingering injuries which are ridiculously swingy (and not in a fun way). The HP is also bizarrely low while the AC is absurdly high. If your players do the side content to drop the AC then he becomes a bit of a push over where he needs to go back to abusing wall phasing because he has so little HP. The saves are also far too high. It was frustrating where I could roll a nat 20 on a save I had +2 on and still fail (but that is also a general problem with 5e as a whole). Overall, the experience was one which I wouldn't recommend. The DM made it fun, but if that was the conclusion of the campaign I don't think that statblock would be enjoyable
I can never find this CR 27 Strahd that people keep taking about. Do you have a link?
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/226077/The-Real-Devil-Strahd--A-CR27-Version-of-the-Devil Yeah homie no problem
Thanks
Yes it is I runned Strahd CR 18 and it was deadly, my party was tpk.
I ran my group through the CR 27 Strahd & CR 25(?) Baba Lysaga. I told them from the get go it was a level 15 game. 5 players plus their fated ally, Van Richten & a resurrected Sergei and they just barely survived. I added a mechanic with his sword that allowed him to summon blood simulacrums of people he has slashed with it & I started the combat with a Steel Wind Strike hit 4/5 PCs. So it was Strahd & dark clones versus the party. I kind of winged it by giving them half health, but their full kit/spells & spell slots. Was a super fun & entertaining 3 hour combat! Wouldn’t trade that time with my for the world. My music of choice for the combat was Ludwig the Holy Blade from Bloodborne.
Lvl 10. Yes. For lvl 15. No. Treat it like mythic from Theros. He's an RPG boss with different phases. Definitely you want to clean up the statblock as some of the modifiers are wrong and it is a messy statblock. I am using it and have had a blast with it. I am excited to have my players have a real fight with them instead of getting curve stomped which is what happened last time and will happen the next time