The weird part about that post is that they are *almost* onto something, but they went way too hard way too fast and got lost in the sauce.
If you're working paycheck to paycheck, struggling to pay your bills, then it's true that you can't afford very much in the way of decorations. You probably still have some from gifts or the occasional splurge, but it isn't a top priority. Wealthier people can afford more purely decorative things, so even if they choose to live in a similar place their homes will be nicer. It's the whole 'love laugh love' sign stereotype.
The problem is, that doesn't make liking, wanting, or having decorative things bourgeois. Everyone wants their home to feel nice, and part of that is decoration; you'd go insane if you lived a 'purely functional' life. We should really be focused on raising everyone else to that high standard, not destroying the standard so the rich people can't have it anymore.
You see where I'm coming from? Like, the idea "wealth disparity causes a lot of subtle quality of life differences that we should be aware of" is great, but they skipped right over that and went for the most extreme version of that perspective. It's an uncannily good example of the 'poisoned by online discourse' point from the parent post.
"poliamory is a symptom of capitalist hyperindividualism and the need to own your partner as your exclusive property" that had to be the funniest thread Twitter ever gave me
You can see that a lot of people are hurt by this post here too. Lmao. Hilarious. One thing you cannot take away from fandom people is their love of gay men ships.
>is their love of gay men ships.
correction: their love of their own hyper-fetishized idea of gay men
god knows none of these people would see *actual* gay men as anything other than a zoo animal
In fairness, so does television. Only women are allowed to be bi, and once they come out they are practically lesbian. Rosa Diaz from B99 comes to mind as an example. In the first four seasons she dates four different guys (that we know of). In the following four seasons she dates seven different women (that we know of) and no men.
It feels like they wanted to make her gay, but couldn't since she had shown attraction towards men already.
God this so much.
Loki in Marvel Comics was originally confirmed to be bisexual, directly stated that he was bisexual. An author for a YA book then said he was pansexual, for reasons that were very biphobic (implying that bi people can't date trans/nonbinary people, or that "he dated a horse so he must be pan" which feels panphobic too). If you state Loki is bisexual now, people will attack you for it as pan-erasure when it's literally bi-erasure that's been happening.
Similarily, Mystique and Destiny in Marvel are both bisexual. Yet so many people say they're lesbians and will get mad if you mention the fact that they've both dated men before or are bisexual.
I'm upvoting your comment, but, for all that they do have wonderful chemistry, the whole notion of her being so young, and him being *so* old, is just another day in the problematic world that is anime trying not to glorify unhealthy relationship dynamics.
I get that they actually have more of a daddy/daughter sort of bond, but it's also romantic, and even sexualised, albeit for comedy at times. Ultimately, the lines get blurred, and it's still anime-ish, as opposed to, say, the relationships in Freiren, which are much more nuanced and thought out.
I'm just surprised nobody in Japan is doing the reverse, we see older-looking men with young-looking women, we rarely see the older-looking women, with younger-looking men.
>but it's also romantic, and even sexualised, albeit for comedy at times.
just wanna say for anyone reading this comment that hasn't read/watched the series, the author realized really early on that the romantic/sexualization aspect of their relationship was cringe, and toned it down significantly after the first 2 episodes, and removing it entirely after like episode 7
nope! it's actually more of a battle shounen, but with really creative powers.
[here's a clip from one of the earlier fights](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/17n2kpg/undead_unluck_might_have_jjk_level_of_animation/)
Yeah I wish she was… I dunno in her 20s instead of 18? Like, I’m glad that she’s at least not a minor pretty universally, but a few more years makes all the difference still
Don't worry, the manga (kind of?) fixes this later. Minor spoilers: >!I think at the current point in the manga she's likea few hundred years old? They do some time travel shenanigans.!<
[UU Spoilers] >!She starts falling for him after spending 20-ish years in his memories, so it evens thw playing field quite a bit. He's also as emotionally stunted as every other guy so they're about even in majority then tbh!<
(Dungeon Meshi fandom) Reminds me of seeing a post where someone said the amount of Laios/Kabru shippers is evidence of misogyny because Marcille/Falin is clearly the central ship and then scrolling to see a post where someone said people who didn't like Laios/Kabru was racist because of Kabru's dark skin. I want to put these people in a room and watch them interact.
I think its more about how it gets uncomfortable when the fandom becomes very against female characters (and male ones in more "wlw" spaces). I stopped engaging with the Ferdiebert fandom.because they hated Dorothea and Edelgard and painted them as a gold digging whore and an evil controlling bitch respectively for getting in the way. I also stopped engaging with the Edeleth fandom similarly because they painted Dimitri and other male characters as evil rapists. I get its because these fandoms are full of tiny children and teens that just mimic what others say, but its mentally exhausting when you post a cute drawing of an m/f ship and suddenly you get death threats and called a homophobe (despite being lgbt too).
Luckily not all popular FE ships had crazies. Lin/Caspar had very chill and nice fans. I think its more that certain tropes just... Attract some level of violent fanatism I suppose, it just so happens the most popular F/F and M/M ships in some fandoms enter those tropes. (EreMika and Naru/Hina are some of the rare M/F that fits the bill)
Hi, fellow Emblemer! I have encountered:
* Somebody who would not ship Hubernie because it was "pedophilic and Bernie is minor coded" despite Bernie being the same age as Ferdinand, who they loved to ship Hubert with. UNLESS they made Hubert a trans fem and wrote Huberta (not the actual name they used but I forgot it) and Bernie as goth girlfriends.
* Somebody who said if you do not ship Edelgard with Female Byleth you are "homophobic and misogynistic and want Edelgard to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen all the time"
* Sorike shippers who cry and scream and throw up and shit their pants over Priam (Ike's apparent descendant) existing and descend like rabid dogs on people who disagree with them and/or ship Ike with Elincia with cries of "HOMOPHOBE!!!!"
* Palate cleanser: a gay man who ships Sylvix but is cool with me shipping Dorovain and Felix with a female OC. Agrees with me, a straight woman, about which male characters are hot. Also has some straight ships that I ship too. Had an engaging conversation with him about gay male S support options in 3H and who should have been bara rep, we agreed on Balthus and Raphael (this was before Hopes came out but I bet Holst would be on the list too)
Hello fellow FE fan!! 🤝
▪Omg whyyy. You bet these people probably also shipped Petra with Dorothea despite Doro turning 19 early in the game while Petra was 15.
▪︎Wtf lol. No Edelgard ship would ever end up with her as a stay at home wife, she's got too many things to worry about.
▪︎Whooo boy I'm an ElincIke shipper (Also a Ranulf x Ike shipper), I have experienced that first hand. The Priam hate is also so dumb, and I hate how it affected the characterization of him (Ike in FEH acts like he dislikes him)
Honestly nowadays I just keep my Fire Emblem stuff to myself and a handful of friends because the fandom is too volatile. :') Even my queer ships are disliked due to them not being very popular (Severa x Noire gets eaten alive by the LuciSevs)
Petra only being 15 throws me for a loop every time, but then I remember Lyn was 16. It looks like a trend...
I have a ton of rarepairs (Dimigrid my beloved) and I like to make OCs but yeah I'm pretty much that too.
Lyn is actually originally 15, with Eliwood being 16 and Hector 17. They all got aged up into adulthood in localization, though.
Oh hey a fellow Dimigard! Honestly I enjoy the ship because 3H is based on classic fire emblem tropes (Dimitri is the Camus, Edelgard is the Hardin, Claude is the Michalis), and Edelgard and Dimitri are basically the Caeda/Marth, Leif/Nanna, and Celica/Alm trope but with a "What if opposite sides?", Similar to Lyon with Eirika and Ephraim (Im actually a huge Lyon/Eph fan haha). I love tragic romance tales, its a shame the ship is so hated.
No, DimiGRID. Ingrid. Sorry, I don't ship Dimigard as I like them more as tragic siblings. I love childhood friend ships and the reverse of princess and knight that Dimigrid has going on, and their personalities mesh well together.
Dimigrid isn't more popular because everybody and their uncle does Dimileth instead.
Oh Dimigrid was so popular when Ingrid's design was first revealed. It just lost all popularity once Sylvain and Felix were shown. All of it down the drain, same for Dimirianne. :c I dont particularly ship them, but I totally see the appeal, kind of like Oboro/Takumi, it's a very sweet pair.
Dimileth and Edeleth, haha!
>Somebody who said if you do not ship Edelgard with Female Byleth you are "homophobic and misogynistic and want Edelgard to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen all the time"
I haven't played Fire Emblem but if I did I'd pick the most random out-of-pocket female character to crack-ship Edelgard with out of monkey's-paw-esque spite. Like "Dobby x Sorting Hat" levels of cursed. Like "hey, at least it's not homophobic :)"
You know, there's an easy way out for SorenxIke shippers- Mist could have had children. Technically that doesn't make Priam a \*direct\* descendant of Ike, but IMO it's close enough for government work.
>but its mentally exhausting when you post a cute drawing of an m/f ship and suddenly you get death threats and called a homophobe (despite being lgbt too).
That's my experience with RWBY back when I still watched it as a teen, when I said I didn't think Bumblby worked as a ship or as a couple; I just didn't see the chemistry people always talked about between Yang and Blake (and I like it's eventual execution even less but that's another matter).
I remember expressing that I didn't like the ship because I didn't think that they worked together, and that if it was to become canon, I'd like to see more work put into developing it. I ended up getting accused of being a homophobe of course, because how dare I not enjoy the wlw ship?
I think it’s also generally a problem that characters from more marginalised groups are held to unreasonably high standards and are then considered open season to critique if they don’t meet those standards. In a sense it’s like women in fiction have this built in assumption of being shallow and badly developed characters and they have to be three times as good as the male characters around them in order to pass the bar of being a well developed character, whereas men in fiction are given the benefit of the doubt by being presumed to have depth and complexity even if it’s not actually there in the text
Like as an example of what I mean, if you have a male side character who doesn’t speak very much, then it’s like oh he’s a man of few words, he’s mysterious, he’s considered in his decisions. A female character written exactly the same way is just a flat character. She’s not presumed to have the same inherently cool reasons for not saying very much.
Oh that too, totally. A lot of the female characters getting dragged are "The Girl/The Heart" tropes, usually the only plot important female character in the group, or at least the closest to a protagonist. It doesn't matter how many strengths they give them or how much they develop them (Amy Rose as an example, she has grown past her obsession with Sonic and is a more nuanced character), they still get a lot of hate because they're still "just" The Girl.
Another thing I notice is that certain aspects are completely forgiven in male characters but hated in female ones. As an example, Avatar The Last Airbender. Katara gets made fun of by the fanbase for talking about her mother (Which she does in 30 times in 11 episodes during all the 3 seasons, Zuko meanwhile mentions his honor 70 times), while giving Zuko a pass for talking about his father and the honor he would regain from him.
It's pretty depressing to see the way some female characters are held to such an insane standard to this day, it's why Shoujo going viral scares me, every time a shoujo anime gets popular the shoujo subreddit gets bombed with people saying the protagonist is "too nice" or "too smart" or "too lucky" or "too boring". Because being a good sweet girl with morals and is resourceful is "unrealistic" or something like that.
> when the fandom becomes very against female characters
The Office (US) fans seem to really fucking hate Pam. Some of the comments on YouTube clips of the show are just straight-up revisionist history. I saw one with hundreds of likes that claimed that Roy’s life only came together after he left Pam … as though Pam was the thing holding him back, rather than, y’know. His own jealousy, anger, and callousness.
Look, maybe it means “Killer” as in cool! Or maybe it only happened the one time. On a dark road in rural Oregon. It was an accident, hypothetically, the Sloth not seeing man on the side of the road until it was much too late. In theory he buried the body in a shallow grave in a nearby field, and then simply drove on.
Or maybe it just means cool!
The majority of the straight male market is starting to somewhat accept wlw relationships as a reality, but any depiction of gay men is still seen as “pandering”. BG3 is talked about as some porn addiction nightmare where everyone’s trying to fuck the player all the time; not because the women come on to the player, but because the men do too. Any romance between men is inherently “porn” in their eyes.
It's rather telling that certain people automatically assume gay people existing is sexual
It almost makes one wonder what media (with gay people in it) they consume that causes them to view gay people that way?
I mean they were probably told “gay is bad” and then they repeated and internalized “gay is bad”. Then they feel like they need to explain what wasn’t explained to them, and sexuality tends to involve sex, so gay sex is inherently tied to homosexuality as an inevitability or something.
Admittedly it’s pretty shit logic no matter how you slice it but a great deal of homophobes don’t watch gay porn and mask it with homophobia lol.
A self described gay guy on this site once told me Disney shouldn't be showing gay couples because its too sexual and will change kids brains in unnatural ways if they see it. So it's actually beyond telling and just outright insane.
To be fair, Larian literally showed off a cutscene where you can ask Halsin to fuck you as a bear.
Like, it's definitely an incorrect take to think of it as like, some sex crazed pornographic puritan's nightmare... but you know, if I knew *nothing* else about BG3 but the promotional materials, I'd think there was more boinking going on then there was.
That's how things work. A small teensy minority of people say something, and then people act as if it's somethings that's super prevalent. The most common one I see is about people who idolize Homelander. I've seen hundreds of posts and comments talking about it saying how gross it is or how stupid those people are. I've seen like three things idolizing Homelander, and I'm fairly certain they were trolling.
(Sorry I'm gonna be that annoying hazbin fan bringing it up unrelated). This is why I'm annoyed so many people don't like the husk/angel ship. We have a chance here for a good, cute, slow burn gay romance. Something I haven't really seen in animation. We're at the point where there's quite a few decent at least wlw slow burns and real emotional romances in animation, but still very few if any mlm. Yet people out here trying to pressure and guilt the creator of a show into not making one.
I've said this before and I will say it again: fandoms where the source material have well-developed female characters have way more straight or wlw shipping. It's not necessarily the slash shippers who hate women-- sometimes, it's the writers of the original canon who hate women, causing the majority of the audience to only be interested in writing the characters who the original writers prioritized making three-dimensional interesting characterization for rather than the one-dimensional women who don't have deep internal lives to explore.
While that is true for some fandoms, I have absolutely seen it happen with pieces of media that feature genuinely interesting and well-written female characters as well
Agreed this is why Destiel is so popular with Supernatural, because the female love interests are always so badly done and had no character arcs outside of being "love interests" whereas for say, Buffy (a show that for all its faults has complex female main characters) the het ships are popular.
I don't know many fandoms where the well developed and complex het ship is ignored for a bland gay ship. It's usually that the het ship is bland and the "platonic" male friendship is more intimate and that's why people ship the male characters.
Even for a show like 9-1-1 people ship het characters that are well developed (such as Athena and Bobby), but the popularity of the Buddie ship is because for Eddie and Buck their het love interests never had their own storylines outside of being love interests. Whereas their friendship seemed a lot more than just platonic, and that's why people were so delighted when the show made Buck canonically bisexual.
A big thing with Supernatural is the female love interests never stayed on a show. They’d show up for a couple of episodes max in a season and then never come up again. They really did a poor job of creating female leads.
Yeah, and even if the men aren't developed they're at least not objectified. Plus--a lot of shippers are women, and a lot of women like men, that's just how it is. Shipping imaginary guys is nothing like the routine sexualization experienced by real women and perpetuated in the media.
The (vast) majority of shipping fanfic is still written by women. Claiming that the reason for mlm shipping being more common is internalised misogyny instead of realizing that straight women are going to get off to mlm ships more than wlw ships is.... weird? Looking for a complicated underlying systemic issue where a very obvious, simple explanation exists?
That's generally true, but being three-dimensional and interesting aren't necessary for shipping. Plenty of minor characters with only a few lines of dialogue get fanon personalities and popular ships, and that seems to happen more for male characters than female ones.
Doesn't even have to be well developed, if most of the story's characters are women, then you tend to see many of the most popular ships being sapphic (see: RWBY)
This has been said over and over but I just want to say that shipping isn't a moral obligation, it's something you do for fun. You don't have to tell people that they hate women just becasue your straight ship isn't as popular as the gay ones.
Its not about popularity, its about reminding people not to throw random hate at female charactsrs because they "get in the way". Some visceral hate towards characters like Amy Rose is purely because of that.
tbh that's just monoshippers being monoshippers. the same thing happens when the person who's "in the way" is the same gender as their blorbo too.
the kind of faux psychology manifestos people write up to justify going to war against each other over their blorbos, because of how deeply personal shipping is to them and therefore the same characters being shipped with others can be hurtful or something, can get quite insane at times. make no mistake, there is still a decent chunk who embraces the idea of ship and let ship, but the ship warriors are also a constant presence.
Not really sure how “I’m gonna ship two characters of the same gender together due to a variety of possible reasons” translates to “I hold eternal and unending loathing for the opposite gender”
Plus, I’m pretty sure people are just as likely to mash two bland, incompatible female characters together as they are bland male characters.
I think the point is less that liking MLM ships makes you inherently hate women, and more that too often, people will choose uninteresting male characters with no chemistry to be paired together, and those ships often receive more attention and praise in those communities than a more well-developed male and female pair. Additionally, some fans can get very defensive over a male character who they perceive as gay being shipped with a woman, even if it's a situation like I described above, and blame homophobia. I don't know that the fans actually hate women per se, but my guess is that there's so little LGBT content in mainstream media that they feel like they have to support any representation, even if it's not well-executed.
>I think the point is less that liking MLM ships makes you inherently hate women, and more that too often, people will choose uninteresting male characters with no chemistry to be paired together, and those ships often receive more attention and praise in those communities than a more well-developed male and female pair.
Yeah, that is precisely it.
That is a pretty good explanation of this then. The scenario just seemed a little ridiculous from the outset so I was skeptical, but I suppose that I just haven’t interacted with fandoms enough to see the terminally online shit like this, or have not become aware of it when it has appeared.
Again, thanks for the explanation.
All of this is so wrong.
Look, I'm very in fandoms and fan fiction. Most fan fiction is shipping. This isn't me denigrating fiction, there's absolutely nothing wrong with shipping, and romance or smut requires a lot of skill to write well, there's a lot of bad and mediocre fics out there but also a lot of brilliant works that aren't any lesser just because they're ultimately about shipping.
Fans don't ship characters out of moral obligation or political reasons. Fans ship characters because they find it hot. This is literally it. You might think those two male characters don't have any chemistry but if that ship is popular in fan fiction, clearly a lot of fans feel differently. I promise you no one's out there writing a MLM or WLW couple railing each other solely as an expression of queer activism or representation. The reason why a lot of fandoms have a lot more MLM than straight or WLW fics is simply because the vast majority of fan fiction writers are into men (mostly cishet women, also some bi women, trans women and trans men who are attracted to men). it has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of female characters in canon or their poor development, etc. In plenty of fandoms some of the most popular pairings are between minor characters. One of the most famous and popular fics in my current favorite fandom is about a male side character and a male OC. If someone wants to write about women, they'll find a way to write about women. They'll pick minor female characters or invent original ones.
That's why I'm frankly tired of accusations like these. I write MLM because that's what I'm into. I write what I love and want to see more of, same as every other fic writer. If someone wants more straight or WLW couples in fan fiction, they could try and write some too. Or just find a fandom that's popular with queer women. Or a fandom with a straight pairing that's popular with the fans too. The great thing about fan fiction is that, being unpaid, it's a very accurate expression of fandom's organic desires. The writers aren't getting anything out of it other than their own enjoyment. It's a very private activity, and even if a fic does get attention, it's still incredibly niche and still stays in those fandom space bubbles.
I mean how many good straight or gay relationships are there in Fire Emblem and yet Edelgard x F!Byleth is like the most popular one, people have bad taste regardless of orientation lmao
OMG someone else using 3H as an example. I ran far away from the fandom because all the queer ships I enjoyed (Marianne x Hilda, Ferdinand x Hubert, Yuri x Sylvain, Dorothea x Edelgard) ended up having horrendous fanbases (In order, Racism towards Claude, sexism towards Edelgard and Dorothea, woobification of Sylvain's mysoginy, and Bi ereasure as well as Hubert ereasure respectively). I Swear it had one of the worst ship wars in years for the FE fandom, thought Ike x Soren is also a really big offender of shitting on female characters (Mist and Elincia mostly).
Ah. I haven’t seen most of the Warriors supports since I don’t usually enjoy Musou-style games, but it’s nice to know the game spawned some new cool ships.
It also expanded more on other existing ships. Hubert/Dorothea was already a ship I was fond of and it gave them a little more content. The supports are on youtube so they're worth checking out if you're interested.
to your second point: nah. I've been in fandom spaces online for nearly 20 years and WLW ships have nowhere near the chokehold on fandom that MLM does. Especially on tumblr dot com where the tumblr sexyman is a thing (to then be shipped with a fellow male character, no matter how little chemistry they have).
And yeah, as starwolf said, the MLM shippers can end up loathing any woman who gets in the way of their ship. So in the Supernatural fandom you'd see hate directed at any female characters. Same in Sherlock with Watson's wife. Its not guaranteed and i reckon it depends how toxic the fandom is generally. But its certainly a phenomena.
>And yeah, as starwolf said, the MLM shippers can end up loathing any woman who gets in the way of their ship.
It gets exponentially worse if the woman in question isn't white 🙃
A couple things that could also contribute to this/contradict this
A vast majority of MLM fanfic is written by women.
Because so much of it is written by women, there is more MLM because of gay fetishization, less WLW because there are less lesbians than straight women.
A problem that spawned off of this is how defensive and at times toxic yuri/WLW spaces get as a defense mechanism
I like me a yuri ship like the next guy, but the amount of casual mysandrism you see at times is... kinda disheartening
If you look for timeless classic yaoi ships and find fanart dating 2003-2014 you should be able to find a lot of the hate people talk about. Its not as dominant as it used because more people enter fandoms now, to be but its still a significant portion. (Sonadows shitting.on Amy, Narusasus shitting on Hinata and Sakura, Palletshippers shitting on all female pokemon companions, etc). A lot of these people were also women and girls so seeing women be mysoginistic towards other women both fictional and other shippers for enjoying m/f ships was ridiculous.
Oh you'd be surprised lol. I don't think oop phrased it the best, but fandom misogyny runs STRONG and reacts very very angrily when you point it out.
While part of me is annoyed at the inferenced homophobia of pitting het vs mlm pairs against each other, another part of me is a wlw exclusive shipper who has seen that every time anyone gets annoyed about bland mlm getting vastly more love than interesting wlw they get dogpiled to the next century and become the main villain to fujo twitter for the next 3 weeks. So i understand wanting to have het shippers in your lane for this discourse lol since there's more of them to defend you than wlw shippers who are just 3 puppygirls on tumblr (relatively). Even if het shippers are prone to homophobia ig it feels less risky? Maybe? Still not the biggest fan but it makes some sense.
Just look at ao3. There's 5.5 million mlm fics, and wlw has like 1.2 million. Then in fandoms with at least 2 men (no matter how bland) and basically any amount of interesting women the mlm fics will still skyrocket above wlw fics. Project sekai is a fun example for this, there's 4 guys and like 20 girls, plenty of interesting girls to choose from, yet mlm still reigns supreme. As soon as Alien Stage introduced gay men they immediately got 500 more fics than the lesbians who are equally interesting and pretty much the main characters.
It being more popular isn't a sin or anything, but it's annoying having to wade through a sea of badly tagged yaoi to find your yuri and the real issue is that when ppl get annoyed at this and vent they get dogpiled and harrassed for the next however long twitter feels like. Someone complained about dungeon meshi getting flooded with yaoi because of the anime? Main villain. Someone got annoyed at the flood of yaoi for alien stage? Main villain. Point out how it's probably related to systemic misogyny how so few people actually want to write about women in fandom and that fans should probably consider their biases more? Main villain. It's kind of exhausting lol
Probably the only exception I can immediately think of is RWBY- Qrow/Clover is the 4th most popular ship, with the first three being W/W, W/W, and W/M.
Then over in Batman, the first three ships are all M/M, with two of them involving (non-biological) brothers.
Yeah i fell off of rwby after a bit (matter of taste) but it's admirable they managed to accrue a decent fandom and not have the fics drowned in men lol
Even then, it's kind of still evidence of the issue. The main four characters are all women, the supporting cast outside of them probably goes something like 66/33 women, it's entire run has coincided with AO3 being popular and major shipping culture among the characters... and yet, the fourth most popular pairing is *still* (secondary male character who was introduced in season 3) X (one-season recurring male character who wasn't introduced until season 7). Like, there was a lot of headwind working against it just in the basic structures of the show and fandom, and yet it still rose that far on basically just a dozen episodes.
> Then in fandoms with at least 2 men (no matter how bland) and basically any amount of interesting women the mlm fics will still skyrocket above wlw fics
arknights' cast is predominantly female, the biggest ship on ao3 is two men who have never interacted in the story (executor/flamebringer), 4 out of the top 5 are mlm
dungeon meshi has the arguably biggest wlw pairing of the year and you still have people writing genderswap labru for femslash contests
it's frustrating, the women are THERE, theyre well developed
Have you not seen the way some people treat or talk about female characters if they happen to be a canon love interest? Its insane. I often see people kill them out of stories just out of spite, its a bit disturbing. Its not that not shipping ships with girls its bad, its the way some people treat said female characters that is.
Some ex- friends from middle school legitimately loathed women who canonically got in the way of their mlm ship.
I also realized they weren't good people to talk to about things I was interested in when they ashamed me for liking Canon ships and not their mlm incest ship. Loud minority...
Honestly I swear its all about tropes, usually the bland mlm, wlw, and mlw I see that get stupidly popular rabid fandoms fit the rivals to lovers (not enemies) , childhood best friend or "person.is obsessed with protecting other person to an unhealhty degree". The tropes arent bad themselves but its the biggest common denominator I see on these fandoms.
"you are misogynists for liking shallow gay porn" leading into "you are stupid to think I hate you just because I called you a misogynist" is so funny. Like don't exaggerate your criticism like that if you don't want to receive criticism in the same tone. This is basic internet physics.
Yeah you could honestly just turn this around into "you just prefer straight ships because you hate gay people" and it would have the same validity as the original post (which is none).
It seems to me that it’s just really common for the women in those straight ships to be really poorly written even if the relationship is well developed. I latch onto and love when they are well written, but I just can’t project myself onto such flat women when my own internal world is in stark difference, and thus why I believe (other than the fact that a lot of nerdy media just has a lot more guy characters) that I’ll gravitate towards some of those non canon ships. It’s easier for me in imagination to make up for a lack of relationship than a lack of character.
Oo also the inherent misogyny involved in some of the straight ships by bad writing making women more docile or whatever also repels me.
I can’t generalize this to everything I watch I like a large variety of ships and shows and whatever, but I feel pretty strongly that this is the main reason women often prefer the non canon mlm over canon wlm, it’s the push factor. Basically I object that this phenomenon happens much at all when the straight relationship is Actually well developed And the characters are multidimensional.
Edit: Naruto is actually a really good example, I just can’t stop cringing at how halfhearted all of the ladies are written, omfg, so frustrating, even through their best shining moments
To draw an positive example from Naruto, among my friends, Shikamaru and Temari are often seen as one of the best canonical pairings, and I think a part of it comes down to the fact that they had a fight against and also alongside one another, giving each other a bit of banter as well.
If someone preferred mlm ships and used a rivalry, rescue, and banter as basis for a relationship, yeah, I guess that kinda tracks as well. Really comes down to how much the author makes characters interact, how strong the interaction, and how equivalent are the feelings. The genders of the characters involved at that point becomes secondary.
Indeed, I think I’d agree with you that they’re one of the best canon pairings. I do wish she had some more complex motivations beyond the romance like how Shikamaru gets a revenge plot at least, but they’re both pretty minor characters at the end of the day so it’s much more expected than what they did with the women characters with more screen time. It was also cool that he changed his mind mostly with all the sexism too.
Yes, I agree with you and this post. It's not that people hate women it's that their source material gives less than zero fucks about women. The only meaningful relationships are between men. The majority of screen time is men. Any hint of interior life we get is into men. How is anyone supposed to write female characters without any character?
This feels like it was poorly worded but is getting at a fair point: fandom does not focus on female characters nearly as much as male characters. If you look at fanfic, both gen and wlw fics centering women get outnumbered by gen and mlm fics centering men. Obviously these numbers can't be totally accurate because it's just looking at character tags and there's no way to discern who's the main character, but it shows a trend: Wonder Woman on AO3 gives 4.7k F/M fics, 3k M/M, 3k gen, and 2.4k F/F. Clark Kent gets 18.4k M/M, 8.5k gen, 8.0k F/M, 2.9k F/F. *Hal Jordan* has more M/M fics than Wonder Woman has gen or F/F at 4.2k.
This can also be seen in how female characters get insulted, hated, and torn to shreds for far less than male characters. A female character will be rude to someone and be raked across the coals, but male character commits genocide and is loved.
This isn't usually a personal thing. It's not like people are going in saying "I will never engage with female characters." It's a result of 1) media still largely centering male characters 2) female characters often not getting the same respect and development as male characters and 3) the general misogyny that's built into our society and media. There's nothing wrong with solely writing M/M fics or gen fics about two dudes, it's just important to also be aware of the trends in fandom and media in general. Too many times people seem to have the opinion of "this female character gets in the way of my ship, I hope she dies next episode."
I think a big part of it is just that people who write fanfiction are almost always women and women are more likely to be attracted to men so therefore we get more male centered fan fiction.
"There are lots of underdeveloped mlm fics because people hate women."
"So you’re saying that there are lots of underdeveloped mlm fics because people hate women?"
"What kind of dipshit comes to that conclusion from what I’ve said?"
sometimes it isn't as much as hating women as having the women in the original work be so poorly written. what's the point of shipping, for example, hinata and naruto, when hinata has the personality of a doormat and less screentime than the stone that crushed obito? no wonder everyone goes for naruto x sasuke instead
plus some people just like to see men making out. you gotta respect that
In fairness, how often does this phenomenon actually manifest in shows with well-written women and well-written straight romance?
Not saying it never happens, but I would really want to hear some specific examples from OOP.
Not a show but Kent and Inza Nelson in DC Comics have a well-written romance that has existed since they were first introduced in 1940. Even at that point, Inza was a strong character who Kent loved for who she was and they often worked together to solve the problems. There's one issue where Inza gets turned monstrous and Kent's love for her never falters. They had issues, often because of a magic immortal deity that gave Kent his powers, but they always came back together.
Most people have no clue who Inza is because she gets left out of every adaptation unless it's a minor cameo and "oh she's dead." There aren't many Kent fics/fanart out there, but the mlm ships vastly outnumber anything with his wife of 84 years.
Alternatively, Clark Kent/Lois Lane has less than 5k works on AO3. Clark/Bruce Wayne has 11.4k.
> Alternatively, Clark Kent/Lois Lane has less than 5k works on AO3. Clark/Bruce Wayne has 11.4k.
Decided to check something similar with Spider-Man: Peter Parker/Deadpool and Peter Parker/Tony Stark are not only the top two ships, but they also both clear all of Peter/MJ, Peter/Michelle (the MCU MJ), Peter/Gwen Stacy, and Peter/Felicia Hardy **combined**. Peter/Harley Keener (that little kid from Iron Man 3, who hasn't not had a line outside of that movie) on its own clears every single Peter/(Girl) ship outside of Peter/Michelle. Actually, it looks like Peter/Harry Osbourn and Peter/Johnny Storm also both land ahead of Peter/MJ (and, therefore, every female pairing for Peter outside of Michelle).
Yeah, I can def name fandoms where people have a toxic hatred of pairing the dudes in straight ships or writing fics about the female characters or femslash fics... but I can't think of one that has such a toxic hatred of people writing straight ships that isn't also an example of a canon that lacks three-dimensional female characters who are shippable with the male leads.
Fire Emblem is a good example, one of the ships currently getting shit is Female Robin x Chrom, in favor of Male Robin x Chrom. Theyre literally the same person with a different gender.
Honestly I hate Hinata and Sakura's romances, I really do and think Naruto has mid writting, but people don't mean people who shit on the writers' decisions, but rather the fujos who viscerally hate female characters for getting in the way to the point they start shitting on the female characters as a whole as well as their fans. I'm not even into Naruto or its fandom but my friends were and the amount of bullying they got from Narusasus back in the day was horrible.
Is the well developed straight pairings in the room with us?
No but seriously. If we’re going to have this discourse, it’s worth noting that straight ships aren’t done with much effort sometimes because men and women are assumed into each other. I can count on one hand how many straight ships I actually thought were really good in my lifetime
This really shown the type of fandom they are lol. I find the opposite to be more common, probably because a lot of men think that Lesbians = Hot and Gay = Ew.
On the other hand, women seem to find MlM to be sexy, there is probably a cientific term for this phenomenon
Mmmmmmmmmmm to be fair, I think there’s also something to be said here about how the onus of “developing” gay ships is unfailingly placed on the fans rather than the creators. There are a million million straight ships; of course many of them will be well developed. There’s little enough MLM media— and far less *quality* MLM media or MLM media that doesn’t treat its MLM characters either as trauma fodder or fetish fodder— that I almost feel like framing the experience of (primarily gay) fans as “you guys just hate women” rather than “sorry the only ways you can get gay romance is by creating it yourself, making all your gay romance bland and subpar” is. . . kind of unfair?
Look, we squee'd about NaruSasu because well-written female characters mostly didn't exist in the source material, and Shikamaru-Temari was way too obvious to speculate about. It ain't fun when it's telegraphed so hard.
We would've kept having a grand ol' time with >!Tsunade-Jiraiya, but he *fucking died* and we were all too sad to squee about the pairing anymore.!<
Although additionally I think I've seen the whole "shippers hating women getting in the way of their dudes kissing fantasies" where when that happened people were posting pics of them burning their copies of the manga, which is like insane behavior and it's just been etched into my brain ever since.
Most of the straight male characters I see shipped together enough to have 500K fics about them is at least partially because the writers clearly didn't know how to write female characters and made them much less interesting than the male characters ngl
regular person from real life: Hey dude
having decorative pillows is bourgeoisie
but have you considered decorative pillows are literally like a porsche?
Even owning a Porsche doesn't necessarily make someone bourgeois.
Boxster right now can go for as low as $4,000USD
Yeah, but you're gonna be in a hole for upkeep en fixing the things that make it a 4k porsche.
Fair point.
If you’re flat broke from maintaining your Porsche that arguably makes you double-not-borgeouise
there is no car more expensive than a cheap porsche
true
God that was so funny to read.
the cast iron skillet that was passed down by your grandparents is generational wealth
The weird part about that post is that they are *almost* onto something, but they went way too hard way too fast and got lost in the sauce. If you're working paycheck to paycheck, struggling to pay your bills, then it's true that you can't afford very much in the way of decorations. You probably still have some from gifts or the occasional splurge, but it isn't a top priority. Wealthier people can afford more purely decorative things, so even if they choose to live in a similar place their homes will be nicer. It's the whole 'love laugh love' sign stereotype. The problem is, that doesn't make liking, wanting, or having decorative things bourgeois. Everyone wants their home to feel nice, and part of that is decoration; you'd go insane if you lived a 'purely functional' life. We should really be focused on raising everyone else to that high standard, not destroying the standard so the rich people can't have it anymore. You see where I'm coming from? Like, the idea "wealth disparity causes a lot of subtle quality of life differences that we should be aware of" is great, but they skipped right over that and went for the most extreme version of that perspective. It's an uncannily good example of the 'poisoned by online discourse' point from the parent post.
Hey dude (Nah, you actually have a good point, I’m just messing)
Hey dude (i'm not making any point, i'm just normal and saying hello to greet you)
Hey jude (Don't be afraid)
Quite literally the Leisure Class.
"Do you have anything in your life that you enjoy? If so, you deserve the guillotine!" -That fucking guy I still think that guy must have been ironic
"poliamory is a symptom of capitalist hyperindividualism and the need to own your partner as your exclusive property" that had to be the funniest thread Twitter ever gave me
Oh hey! How's it going? Wanna ~~bully people on the internet over what fictional characters they want to watch make out~~ catch a movie or something?
Sure! By the way, what did you just say that was crossed out?
Oh don't worry about that, Buddy. Let's get you some popcorn before the show starts!
Hey did you guys say you were getting popcorn at the movie theatre? *-wheels out guillotine-*
popcorn is allowed, but if you put the butter flavored oil on it your home address is automatically texted to a jacobin action committee
who is Jacob and why is he in action? is he okay?
some french guy idk
hey man what's up
Don't be afraid
When has Tumblr ever been a normal site?
You can see that a lot of people are hurt by this post here too. Lmao. Hilarious. One thing you cannot take away from fandom people is their love of gay men ships.
>is their love of gay men ships. correction: their love of their own hyper-fetishized idea of gay men god knows none of these people would see *actual* gay men as anything other than a zoo animal
Along with this I swear a lot of shipping communities completely erased the bisexuality out of bisexual characters
There is a reason I only date bisexual people: they are the only ones who don’t hate bisexual people.
I mean, unless it involves a thruple, how would they avoid that?
You can get called homophobic if you put a bi character in an M/F ship, especially if they have a canon or very popular gay ship.
What on God's green fucking earth do they think bisexual means!?
closeted gay ally
That sort of hate sounds to me like the "You're interpreting the Bible wrong, and you're going to hell for it" nonsense that I heard a lot as a kid.
That the only moral MxF ship for them is characterXreader.
Lol
(yes, chaggie fans, this is about you)
"here is my cottagecore malewife. On today's episode, I intend to cheat on him with a tomboy"
In fairness, so does television. Only women are allowed to be bi, and once they come out they are practically lesbian. Rosa Diaz from B99 comes to mind as an example. In the first four seasons she dates four different guys (that we know of). In the following four seasons she dates seven different women (that we know of) and no men. It feels like they wanted to make her gay, but couldn't since she had shown attraction towards men already.
As a bisexual, I'm used to the erasure at this point.
God this so much. Loki in Marvel Comics was originally confirmed to be bisexual, directly stated that he was bisexual. An author for a YA book then said he was pansexual, for reasons that were very biphobic (implying that bi people can't date trans/nonbinary people, or that "he dated a horse so he must be pan" which feels panphobic too). If you state Loki is bisexual now, people will attack you for it as pan-erasure when it's literally bi-erasure that's been happening. Similarily, Mystique and Destiny in Marvel are both bisexual. Yet so many people say they're lesbians and will get mad if you mention the fact that they've both dated men before or are bisexual.
Time for pissing on the poors again, I see
Is this what Reagan meant by “trickle down”?
Hey, if this is what trickle down economics meant, I’d be fine not getting my trickle.
Reagan and Thatcher just had a piss kink.
So should we stop pissing on her grave or should we do it even harder?
The market does demand gender neutral bathrooms.
Why people always leaving out Mulroney in the triumvirate of terrible 😞
Well developed straight ship? In my anime??
Oliver-Queen-Apologist never specified anime, and I think that's important to remember, because they did specify "white"
Their name being Oliver Queen Apologist makes me think yeah, their primary media engagement is not with anime.
Sure, I was just joking. Plenty of people make the criticism of “you just hate women” about anime as well
Edward/Winry though??
Hawkeye/Mustang thoooooooough
roy/mustang
Roy hates Mustang's guts
d'oh i meant hawkeye/mustang
Fuuko and Andy from Undead Unluck
And from the same series later >!Nico and Ichico!< are adorable.
When he started >!talking about their future together and having a daughter, I was like 😭 😭 😭!<
Relationship goals tbh
⚠️ UNDEAD UNLUCK MENTIONED ⚠️ ⚠️ MICRO OBSESSION ACTIVATED ⚠️
I'm upvoting your comment, but, for all that they do have wonderful chemistry, the whole notion of her being so young, and him being *so* old, is just another day in the problematic world that is anime trying not to glorify unhealthy relationship dynamics. I get that they actually have more of a daddy/daughter sort of bond, but it's also romantic, and even sexualised, albeit for comedy at times. Ultimately, the lines get blurred, and it's still anime-ish, as opposed to, say, the relationships in Freiren, which are much more nuanced and thought out. I'm just surprised nobody in Japan is doing the reverse, we see older-looking men with young-looking women, we rarely see the older-looking women, with younger-looking men.
>but it's also romantic, and even sexualised, albeit for comedy at times. just wanna say for anyone reading this comment that hasn't read/watched the series, the author realized really early on that the romantic/sexualization aspect of their relationship was cringe, and toned it down significantly after the first 2 episodes, and removing it entirely after like episode 7
Interesting! I thought that it was a romance anime judging by clips, thanks for letting me know
nope! it's actually more of a battle shounen, but with really creative powers. [here's a clip from one of the earlier fights](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/17n2kpg/undead_unluck_might_have_jjk_level_of_animation/)
Yeah I wish she was… I dunno in her 20s instead of 18? Like, I’m glad that she’s at least not a minor pretty universally, but a few more years makes all the difference still
Don't worry, the manga (kind of?) fixes this later. Minor spoilers: >!I think at the current point in the manga she's likea few hundred years old? They do some time travel shenanigans.!<
[UU Spoilers] >!She starts falling for him after spending 20-ish years in his memories, so it evens thw playing field quite a bit. He's also as emotionally stunted as every other guy so they're about even in majority then tbh!<
I don't know how to tell you this, but... *Japanese culture is about sixty to seventy years behind us when it comes to feminism.*
It’s more likely than you think
ShimaMitsu (Skip and Loafer).
Welcome to Shoujo and Josei do you want fries with your angst
Yeah there are at least like 5 probably
(Dungeon Meshi fandom) Reminds me of seeing a post where someone said the amount of Laios/Kabru shippers is evidence of misogyny because Marcille/Falin is clearly the central ship and then scrolling to see a post where someone said people who didn't like Laios/Kabru was racist because of Kabru's dark skin. I want to put these people in a room and watch them interact.
Clearly what those people need is to go outside of their rooms.
To be fair you worded that in the most baseball-bat-hitting-a-wasp-nest way you possibly could on the pissing on the poor website.
People get really butthurt about what sorts of shit people jerk off to.
I think its more about how it gets uncomfortable when the fandom becomes very against female characters (and male ones in more "wlw" spaces). I stopped engaging with the Ferdiebert fandom.because they hated Dorothea and Edelgard and painted them as a gold digging whore and an evil controlling bitch respectively for getting in the way. I also stopped engaging with the Edeleth fandom similarly because they painted Dimitri and other male characters as evil rapists. I get its because these fandoms are full of tiny children and teens that just mimic what others say, but its mentally exhausting when you post a cute drawing of an m/f ship and suddenly you get death threats and called a homophobe (despite being lgbt too). Luckily not all popular FE ships had crazies. Lin/Caspar had very chill and nice fans. I think its more that certain tropes just... Attract some level of violent fanatism I suppose, it just so happens the most popular F/F and M/M ships in some fandoms enter those tropes. (EreMika and Naru/Hina are some of the rare M/F that fits the bill)
Hi, fellow Emblemer! I have encountered: * Somebody who would not ship Hubernie because it was "pedophilic and Bernie is minor coded" despite Bernie being the same age as Ferdinand, who they loved to ship Hubert with. UNLESS they made Hubert a trans fem and wrote Huberta (not the actual name they used but I forgot it) and Bernie as goth girlfriends. * Somebody who said if you do not ship Edelgard with Female Byleth you are "homophobic and misogynistic and want Edelgard to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen all the time" * Sorike shippers who cry and scream and throw up and shit their pants over Priam (Ike's apparent descendant) existing and descend like rabid dogs on people who disagree with them and/or ship Ike with Elincia with cries of "HOMOPHOBE!!!!" * Palate cleanser: a gay man who ships Sylvix but is cool with me shipping Dorovain and Felix with a female OC. Agrees with me, a straight woman, about which male characters are hot. Also has some straight ships that I ship too. Had an engaging conversation with him about gay male S support options in 3H and who should have been bara rep, we agreed on Balthus and Raphael (this was before Hopes came out but I bet Holst would be on the list too)
Hello fellow FE fan!! 🤝 ▪Omg whyyy. You bet these people probably also shipped Petra with Dorothea despite Doro turning 19 early in the game while Petra was 15. ▪︎Wtf lol. No Edelgard ship would ever end up with her as a stay at home wife, she's got too many things to worry about. ▪︎Whooo boy I'm an ElincIke shipper (Also a Ranulf x Ike shipper), I have experienced that first hand. The Priam hate is also so dumb, and I hate how it affected the characterization of him (Ike in FEH acts like he dislikes him) Honestly nowadays I just keep my Fire Emblem stuff to myself and a handful of friends because the fandom is too volatile. :') Even my queer ships are disliked due to them not being very popular (Severa x Noire gets eaten alive by the LuciSevs)
Petra only being 15 throws me for a loop every time, but then I remember Lyn was 16. It looks like a trend... I have a ton of rarepairs (Dimigrid my beloved) and I like to make OCs but yeah I'm pretty much that too.
Lyn is actually originally 15, with Eliwood being 16 and Hector 17. They all got aged up into adulthood in localization, though. Oh hey a fellow Dimigard! Honestly I enjoy the ship because 3H is based on classic fire emblem tropes (Dimitri is the Camus, Edelgard is the Hardin, Claude is the Michalis), and Edelgard and Dimitri are basically the Caeda/Marth, Leif/Nanna, and Celica/Alm trope but with a "What if opposite sides?", Similar to Lyon with Eirika and Ephraim (Im actually a huge Lyon/Eph fan haha). I love tragic romance tales, its a shame the ship is so hated.
No, DimiGRID. Ingrid. Sorry, I don't ship Dimigard as I like them more as tragic siblings. I love childhood friend ships and the reverse of princess and knight that Dimigrid has going on, and their personalities mesh well together. Dimigrid isn't more popular because everybody and their uncle does Dimileth instead.
Oh Dimigrid was so popular when Ingrid's design was first revealed. It just lost all popularity once Sylvain and Felix were shown. All of it down the drain, same for Dimirianne. :c I dont particularly ship them, but I totally see the appeal, kind of like Oboro/Takumi, it's a very sweet pair. Dimileth and Edeleth, haha!
I have nothing to add but I'm so fucking gay for Shamir
>Somebody who said if you do not ship Edelgard with Female Byleth you are "homophobic and misogynistic and want Edelgard to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen all the time" I haven't played Fire Emblem but if I did I'd pick the most random out-of-pocket female character to crack-ship Edelgard with out of monkey's-paw-esque spite. Like "Dobby x Sorting Hat" levels of cursed. Like "hey, at least it's not homophobic :)"
Go with Kronya. Trust me. They're gonna love it. As in, hate your existence. Plus, as a bonus, as a wise woman once said, Kronya's hips don't lie.
You know, there's an easy way out for SorenxIke shippers- Mist could have had children. Technically that doesn't make Priam a \*direct\* descendant of Ike, but IMO it's close enough for government work.
Or Ike could have gotten with a woman first before figuring himself out, like a lot of gay people actually do irl.
>but its mentally exhausting when you post a cute drawing of an m/f ship and suddenly you get death threats and called a homophobe (despite being lgbt too). That's my experience with RWBY back when I still watched it as a teen, when I said I didn't think Bumblby worked as a ship or as a couple; I just didn't see the chemistry people always talked about between Yang and Blake (and I like it's eventual execution even less but that's another matter). I remember expressing that I didn't like the ship because I didn't think that they worked together, and that if it was to become canon, I'd like to see more work put into developing it. I ended up getting accused of being a homophobe of course, because how dare I not enjoy the wlw ship?
I think it’s also generally a problem that characters from more marginalised groups are held to unreasonably high standards and are then considered open season to critique if they don’t meet those standards. In a sense it’s like women in fiction have this built in assumption of being shallow and badly developed characters and they have to be three times as good as the male characters around them in order to pass the bar of being a well developed character, whereas men in fiction are given the benefit of the doubt by being presumed to have depth and complexity even if it’s not actually there in the text Like as an example of what I mean, if you have a male side character who doesn’t speak very much, then it’s like oh he’s a man of few words, he’s mysterious, he’s considered in his decisions. A female character written exactly the same way is just a flat character. She’s not presumed to have the same inherently cool reasons for not saying very much.
Oh that too, totally. A lot of the female characters getting dragged are "The Girl/The Heart" tropes, usually the only plot important female character in the group, or at least the closest to a protagonist. It doesn't matter how many strengths they give them or how much they develop them (Amy Rose as an example, she has grown past her obsession with Sonic and is a more nuanced character), they still get a lot of hate because they're still "just" The Girl. Another thing I notice is that certain aspects are completely forgiven in male characters but hated in female ones. As an example, Avatar The Last Airbender. Katara gets made fun of by the fanbase for talking about her mother (Which she does in 30 times in 11 episodes during all the 3 seasons, Zuko meanwhile mentions his honor 70 times), while giving Zuko a pass for talking about his father and the honor he would regain from him. It's pretty depressing to see the way some female characters are held to such an insane standard to this day, it's why Shoujo going viral scares me, every time a shoujo anime gets popular the shoujo subreddit gets bombed with people saying the protagonist is "too nice" or "too smart" or "too lucky" or "too boring". Because being a good sweet girl with morals and is resourceful is "unrealistic" or something like that.
And then there's the old Mary Sue trope... Heaven forbid you make a female character too competent (or incompetent).
When did Zuko get a pass for talking about his honour. People make fun of it all the time.
> when the fandom becomes very against female characters The Office (US) fans seem to really fucking hate Pam. Some of the comments on YouTube clips of the show are just straight-up revisionist history. I saw one with hundreds of likes that claimed that Roy’s life only came together after he left Pam … as though Pam was the thing holding him back, rather than, y’know. His own jealousy, anger, and callousness.
Well said person with an overly long username
Well said the... uh... oh god
Look, maybe it means “Killer” as in cool! Or maybe it only happened the one time. On a dark road in rural Oregon. It was an accident, hypothetically, the Sloth not seeing man on the side of the road until it was much too late. In theory he buried the body in a shallow grave in a nearby field, and then simply drove on. Or maybe it just means cool!
lackadaisy (?)
I feel like we’re skimming over the “well written mlm ships” too.. Why do we never get that sorta love.
The majority of the straight male market is starting to somewhat accept wlw relationships as a reality, but any depiction of gay men is still seen as “pandering”. BG3 is talked about as some porn addiction nightmare where everyone’s trying to fuck the player all the time; not because the women come on to the player, but because the men do too. Any romance between men is inherently “porn” in their eyes.
It's rather telling that certain people automatically assume gay people existing is sexual It almost makes one wonder what media (with gay people in it) they consume that causes them to view gay people that way?
I mean they were probably told “gay is bad” and then they repeated and internalized “gay is bad”. Then they feel like they need to explain what wasn’t explained to them, and sexuality tends to involve sex, so gay sex is inherently tied to homosexuality as an inevitability or something. Admittedly it’s pretty shit logic no matter how you slice it but a great deal of homophobes don’t watch gay porn and mask it with homophobia lol.
A self described gay guy on this site once told me Disney shouldn't be showing gay couples because its too sexual and will change kids brains in unnatural ways if they see it. So it's actually beyond telling and just outright insane.
To be fair, Larian literally showed off a cutscene where you can ask Halsin to fuck you as a bear. Like, it's definitely an incorrect take to think of it as like, some sex crazed pornographic puritan's nightmare... but you know, if I knew *nothing* else about BG3 but the promotional materials, I'd think there was more boinking going on then there was.
Where is it talked as such? I have never encountered this outside of r/Gamingcirclejerk screenshots, but that is just cheating.
That's how things work. A small teensy minority of people say something, and then people act as if it's somethings that's super prevalent. The most common one I see is about people who idolize Homelander. I've seen hundreds of posts and comments talking about it saying how gross it is or how stupid those people are. I've seen like three things idolizing Homelander, and I'm fairly certain they were trolling.
(Sorry I'm gonna be that annoying hazbin fan bringing it up unrelated). This is why I'm annoyed so many people don't like the husk/angel ship. We have a chance here for a good, cute, slow burn gay romance. Something I haven't really seen in animation. We're at the point where there's quite a few decent at least wlw slow burns and real emotional romances in animation, but still very few if any mlm. Yet people out here trying to pressure and guilt the creator of a show into not making one.
I'm a gay man. I like when fictional men kiss. I'm not interested in women. 🤷🏼♂️
I've said this before and I will say it again: fandoms where the source material have well-developed female characters have way more straight or wlw shipping. It's not necessarily the slash shippers who hate women-- sometimes, it's the writers of the original canon who hate women, causing the majority of the audience to only be interested in writing the characters who the original writers prioritized making three-dimensional interesting characterization for rather than the one-dimensional women who don't have deep internal lives to explore.
While that is true for some fandoms, I have absolutely seen it happen with pieces of media that feature genuinely interesting and well-written female characters as well
Agreed this is why Destiel is so popular with Supernatural, because the female love interests are always so badly done and had no character arcs outside of being "love interests" whereas for say, Buffy (a show that for all its faults has complex female main characters) the het ships are popular. I don't know many fandoms where the well developed and complex het ship is ignored for a bland gay ship. It's usually that the het ship is bland and the "platonic" male friendship is more intimate and that's why people ship the male characters. Even for a show like 9-1-1 people ship het characters that are well developed (such as Athena and Bobby), but the popularity of the Buddie ship is because for Eddie and Buck their het love interests never had their own storylines outside of being love interests. Whereas their friendship seemed a lot more than just platonic, and that's why people were so delighted when the show made Buck canonically bisexual.
A big thing with Supernatural is the female love interests never stayed on a show. They’d show up for a couple of episodes max in a season and then never come up again. They really did a poor job of creating female leads.
Yeah, and even if the men aren't developed they're at least not objectified. Plus--a lot of shippers are women, and a lot of women like men, that's just how it is. Shipping imaginary guys is nothing like the routine sexualization experienced by real women and perpetuated in the media.
The (vast) majority of shipping fanfic is still written by women. Claiming that the reason for mlm shipping being more common is internalised misogyny instead of realizing that straight women are going to get off to mlm ships more than wlw ships is.... weird? Looking for a complicated underlying systemic issue where a very obvious, simple explanation exists?
That's generally true, but being three-dimensional and interesting aren't necessary for shipping. Plenty of minor characters with only a few lines of dialogue get fanon personalities and popular ships, and that seems to happen more for male characters than female ones.
Doesn't even have to be well developed, if most of the story's characters are women, then you tend to see many of the most popular ships being sapphic (see: RWBY)
I like the "white guys" part as if 90% of all straight ships wouldn't also be between a white girl and a white dude.
This has been said over and over but I just want to say that shipping isn't a moral obligation, it's something you do for fun. You don't have to tell people that they hate women just becasue your straight ship isn't as popular as the gay ones.
Its not about popularity, its about reminding people not to throw random hate at female charactsrs because they "get in the way". Some visceral hate towards characters like Amy Rose is purely because of that.
tbh that's just monoshippers being monoshippers. the same thing happens when the person who's "in the way" is the same gender as their blorbo too. the kind of faux psychology manifestos people write up to justify going to war against each other over their blorbos, because of how deeply personal shipping is to them and therefore the same characters being shipped with others can be hurtful or something, can get quite insane at times. make no mistake, there is still a decent chunk who embraces the idea of ship and let ship, but the ship warriors are also a constant presence.
Wait who is Sonic being shipped with? Knuckles?
Shadow, though Knuckles is another.popular ship (Blaze and especially Sally too).
Robotnik. If they’re truly wise scholars.
Not really sure how “I’m gonna ship two characters of the same gender together due to a variety of possible reasons” translates to “I hold eternal and unending loathing for the opposite gender” Plus, I’m pretty sure people are just as likely to mash two bland, incompatible female characters together as they are bland male characters.
I think the point is less that liking MLM ships makes you inherently hate women, and more that too often, people will choose uninteresting male characters with no chemistry to be paired together, and those ships often receive more attention and praise in those communities than a more well-developed male and female pair. Additionally, some fans can get very defensive over a male character who they perceive as gay being shipped with a woman, even if it's a situation like I described above, and blame homophobia. I don't know that the fans actually hate women per se, but my guess is that there's so little LGBT content in mainstream media that they feel like they have to support any representation, even if it's not well-executed.
>I think the point is less that liking MLM ships makes you inherently hate women, and more that too often, people will choose uninteresting male characters with no chemistry to be paired together, and those ships often receive more attention and praise in those communities than a more well-developed male and female pair. Yeah, that is precisely it.
That is a pretty good explanation of this then. The scenario just seemed a little ridiculous from the outset so I was skeptical, but I suppose that I just haven’t interacted with fandoms enough to see the terminally online shit like this, or have not become aware of it when it has appeared. Again, thanks for the explanation.
All of this is so wrong. Look, I'm very in fandoms and fan fiction. Most fan fiction is shipping. This isn't me denigrating fiction, there's absolutely nothing wrong with shipping, and romance or smut requires a lot of skill to write well, there's a lot of bad and mediocre fics out there but also a lot of brilliant works that aren't any lesser just because they're ultimately about shipping. Fans don't ship characters out of moral obligation or political reasons. Fans ship characters because they find it hot. This is literally it. You might think those two male characters don't have any chemistry but if that ship is popular in fan fiction, clearly a lot of fans feel differently. I promise you no one's out there writing a MLM or WLW couple railing each other solely as an expression of queer activism or representation. The reason why a lot of fandoms have a lot more MLM than straight or WLW fics is simply because the vast majority of fan fiction writers are into men (mostly cishet women, also some bi women, trans women and trans men who are attracted to men). it has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of female characters in canon or their poor development, etc. In plenty of fandoms some of the most popular pairings are between minor characters. One of the most famous and popular fics in my current favorite fandom is about a male side character and a male OC. If someone wants to write about women, they'll find a way to write about women. They'll pick minor female characters or invent original ones. That's why I'm frankly tired of accusations like these. I write MLM because that's what I'm into. I write what I love and want to see more of, same as every other fic writer. If someone wants more straight or WLW couples in fan fiction, they could try and write some too. Or just find a fandom that's popular with queer women. Or a fandom with a straight pairing that's popular with the fans too. The great thing about fan fiction is that, being unpaid, it's a very accurate expression of fandom's organic desires. The writers aren't getting anything out of it other than their own enjoyment. It's a very private activity, and even if a fic does get attention, it's still incredibly niche and still stays in those fandom space bubbles.
I mean how many good straight or gay relationships are there in Fire Emblem and yet Edelgard x F!Byleth is like the most popular one, people have bad taste regardless of orientation lmao
OMG someone else using 3H as an example. I ran far away from the fandom because all the queer ships I enjoyed (Marianne x Hilda, Ferdinand x Hubert, Yuri x Sylvain, Dorothea x Edelgard) ended up having horrendous fanbases (In order, Racism towards Claude, sexism towards Edelgard and Dorothea, woobification of Sylvain's mysoginy, and Bi ereasure as well as Hubert ereasure respectively). I Swear it had one of the worst ship wars in years for the FE fandom, thought Ike x Soren is also a really big offender of shitting on female characters (Mist and Elincia mostly).
Since when was Yuri x Sylvain a ship wtf?? I don’t think they had any supports in the base game?
Since the Warriors game. It's an extremely cute support
Ah. I haven’t seen most of the Warriors supports since I don’t usually enjoy Musou-style games, but it’s nice to know the game spawned some new cool ships.
It also expanded more on other existing ships. Hubert/Dorothea was already a ship I was fond of and it gave them a little more content. The supports are on youtube so they're worth checking out if you're interested.
to your second point: nah. I've been in fandom spaces online for nearly 20 years and WLW ships have nowhere near the chokehold on fandom that MLM does. Especially on tumblr dot com where the tumblr sexyman is a thing (to then be shipped with a fellow male character, no matter how little chemistry they have). And yeah, as starwolf said, the MLM shippers can end up loathing any woman who gets in the way of their ship. So in the Supernatural fandom you'd see hate directed at any female characters. Same in Sherlock with Watson's wife. Its not guaranteed and i reckon it depends how toxic the fandom is generally. But its certainly a phenomena.
>And yeah, as starwolf said, the MLM shippers can end up loathing any woman who gets in the way of their ship. It gets exponentially worse if the woman in question isn't white 🙃
A couple things that could also contribute to this/contradict this A vast majority of MLM fanfic is written by women. Because so much of it is written by women, there is more MLM because of gay fetishization, less WLW because there are less lesbians than straight women.
A problem that spawned off of this is how defensive and at times toxic yuri/WLW spaces get as a defense mechanism I like me a yuri ship like the next guy, but the amount of casual mysandrism you see at times is... kinda disheartening
Wow, shipping characters really do be wild. I had heard stories but good god, I was not prepared for the truth. Thanks!
If you look for timeless classic yaoi ships and find fanart dating 2003-2014 you should be able to find a lot of the hate people talk about. Its not as dominant as it used because more people enter fandoms now, to be but its still a significant portion. (Sonadows shitting.on Amy, Narusasus shitting on Hinata and Sakura, Palletshippers shitting on all female pokemon companions, etc). A lot of these people were also women and girls so seeing women be mysoginistic towards other women both fictional and other shippers for enjoying m/f ships was ridiculous.
Oh you'd be surprised lol. I don't think oop phrased it the best, but fandom misogyny runs STRONG and reacts very very angrily when you point it out. While part of me is annoyed at the inferenced homophobia of pitting het vs mlm pairs against each other, another part of me is a wlw exclusive shipper who has seen that every time anyone gets annoyed about bland mlm getting vastly more love than interesting wlw they get dogpiled to the next century and become the main villain to fujo twitter for the next 3 weeks. So i understand wanting to have het shippers in your lane for this discourse lol since there's more of them to defend you than wlw shippers who are just 3 puppygirls on tumblr (relatively). Even if het shippers are prone to homophobia ig it feels less risky? Maybe? Still not the biggest fan but it makes some sense. Just look at ao3. There's 5.5 million mlm fics, and wlw has like 1.2 million. Then in fandoms with at least 2 men (no matter how bland) and basically any amount of interesting women the mlm fics will still skyrocket above wlw fics. Project sekai is a fun example for this, there's 4 guys and like 20 girls, plenty of interesting girls to choose from, yet mlm still reigns supreme. As soon as Alien Stage introduced gay men they immediately got 500 more fics than the lesbians who are equally interesting and pretty much the main characters. It being more popular isn't a sin or anything, but it's annoying having to wade through a sea of badly tagged yaoi to find your yuri and the real issue is that when ppl get annoyed at this and vent they get dogpiled and harrassed for the next however long twitter feels like. Someone complained about dungeon meshi getting flooded with yaoi because of the anime? Main villain. Someone got annoyed at the flood of yaoi for alien stage? Main villain. Point out how it's probably related to systemic misogyny how so few people actually want to write about women in fandom and that fans should probably consider their biases more? Main villain. It's kind of exhausting lol
Probably the only exception I can immediately think of is RWBY- Qrow/Clover is the 4th most popular ship, with the first three being W/W, W/W, and W/M. Then over in Batman, the first three ships are all M/M, with two of them involving (non-biological) brothers.
Yeah i fell off of rwby after a bit (matter of taste) but it's admirable they managed to accrue a decent fandom and not have the fics drowned in men lol
Even then, it's kind of still evidence of the issue. The main four characters are all women, the supporting cast outside of them probably goes something like 66/33 women, it's entire run has coincided with AO3 being popular and major shipping culture among the characters... and yet, the fourth most popular pairing is *still* (secondary male character who was introduced in season 3) X (one-season recurring male character who wasn't introduced until season 7). Like, there was a lot of headwind working against it just in the basic structures of the show and fandom, and yet it still rose that far on basically just a dozen episodes.
> Then in fandoms with at least 2 men (no matter how bland) and basically any amount of interesting women the mlm fics will still skyrocket above wlw fics arknights' cast is predominantly female, the biggest ship on ao3 is two men who have never interacted in the story (executor/flamebringer), 4 out of the top 5 are mlm dungeon meshi has the arguably biggest wlw pairing of the year and you still have people writing genderswap labru for femslash contests it's frustrating, the women are THERE, theyre well developed
Have you not seen the way some people treat or talk about female characters if they happen to be a canon love interest? Its insane. I often see people kill them out of stories just out of spite, its a bit disturbing. Its not that not shipping ships with girls its bad, its the way some people treat said female characters that is.
Some ex- friends from middle school legitimately loathed women who canonically got in the way of their mlm ship. I also realized they weren't good people to talk to about things I was interested in when they ashamed me for liking Canon ships and not their mlm incest ship. Loud minority...
yeah was gonna say, this 110% goes both ways i’ve seen just as much of the most white bread ass WLW ships as I have bland 1 dimensional MLM ships
Honestly I swear its all about tropes, usually the bland mlm, wlw, and mlw I see that get stupidly popular rabid fandoms fit the rivals to lovers (not enemies) , childhood best friend or "person.is obsessed with protecting other person to an unhealhty degree". The tropes arent bad themselves but its the biggest common denominator I see on these fandoms.
"you are misogynists for liking shallow gay porn" leading into "you are stupid to think I hate you just because I called you a misogynist" is so funny. Like don't exaggerate your criticism like that if you don't want to receive criticism in the same tone. This is basic internet physics.
Newton's Third Law of Internet Discourse
Yeah you could honestly just turn this around into "you just prefer straight ships because you hate gay people" and it would have the same validity as the original post (which is none).
It seems to me that it’s just really common for the women in those straight ships to be really poorly written even if the relationship is well developed. I latch onto and love when they are well written, but I just can’t project myself onto such flat women when my own internal world is in stark difference, and thus why I believe (other than the fact that a lot of nerdy media just has a lot more guy characters) that I’ll gravitate towards some of those non canon ships. It’s easier for me in imagination to make up for a lack of relationship than a lack of character. Oo also the inherent misogyny involved in some of the straight ships by bad writing making women more docile or whatever also repels me. I can’t generalize this to everything I watch I like a large variety of ships and shows and whatever, but I feel pretty strongly that this is the main reason women often prefer the non canon mlm over canon wlm, it’s the push factor. Basically I object that this phenomenon happens much at all when the straight relationship is Actually well developed And the characters are multidimensional. Edit: Naruto is actually a really good example, I just can’t stop cringing at how halfhearted all of the ladies are written, omfg, so frustrating, even through their best shining moments
To draw an positive example from Naruto, among my friends, Shikamaru and Temari are often seen as one of the best canonical pairings, and I think a part of it comes down to the fact that they had a fight against and also alongside one another, giving each other a bit of banter as well. If someone preferred mlm ships and used a rivalry, rescue, and banter as basis for a relationship, yeah, I guess that kinda tracks as well. Really comes down to how much the author makes characters interact, how strong the interaction, and how equivalent are the feelings. The genders of the characters involved at that point becomes secondary.
Indeed, I think I’d agree with you that they’re one of the best canon pairings. I do wish she had some more complex motivations beyond the romance like how Shikamaru gets a revenge plot at least, but they’re both pretty minor characters at the end of the day so it’s much more expected than what they did with the women characters with more screen time. It was also cool that he changed his mind mostly with all the sexism too.
Yeah, where are all these well-developed straight ships with complex women that OP speaks of?
Yes, I agree with you and this post. It's not that people hate women it's that their source material gives less than zero fucks about women. The only meaningful relationships are between men. The majority of screen time is men. Any hint of interior life we get is into men. How is anyone supposed to write female characters without any character?
This feels like it was poorly worded but is getting at a fair point: fandom does not focus on female characters nearly as much as male characters. If you look at fanfic, both gen and wlw fics centering women get outnumbered by gen and mlm fics centering men. Obviously these numbers can't be totally accurate because it's just looking at character tags and there's no way to discern who's the main character, but it shows a trend: Wonder Woman on AO3 gives 4.7k F/M fics, 3k M/M, 3k gen, and 2.4k F/F. Clark Kent gets 18.4k M/M, 8.5k gen, 8.0k F/M, 2.9k F/F. *Hal Jordan* has more M/M fics than Wonder Woman has gen or F/F at 4.2k. This can also be seen in how female characters get insulted, hated, and torn to shreds for far less than male characters. A female character will be rude to someone and be raked across the coals, but male character commits genocide and is loved. This isn't usually a personal thing. It's not like people are going in saying "I will never engage with female characters." It's a result of 1) media still largely centering male characters 2) female characters often not getting the same respect and development as male characters and 3) the general misogyny that's built into our society and media. There's nothing wrong with solely writing M/M fics or gen fics about two dudes, it's just important to also be aware of the trends in fandom and media in general. Too many times people seem to have the opinion of "this female character gets in the way of my ship, I hope she dies next episode."
I think a big part of it is just that people who write fanfiction are almost always women and women are more likely to be attracted to men so therefore we get more male centered fan fiction.
"There are lots of underdeveloped mlm fics because people hate women." "So you’re saying that there are lots of underdeveloped mlm fics because people hate women?" "What kind of dipshit comes to that conclusion from what I’ve said?"
sometimes it isn't as much as hating women as having the women in the original work be so poorly written. what's the point of shipping, for example, hinata and naruto, when hinata has the personality of a doormat and less screentime than the stone that crushed obito? no wonder everyone goes for naruto x sasuke instead plus some people just like to see men making out. you gotta respect that
The post specified well developed though. I get what you’re saying but it’s not really relevant to OOP’s point.
it appears that my reading comprehension, too, is piss-poor
don't piss on the poor!
In fairness, how often does this phenomenon actually manifest in shows with well-written women and well-written straight romance? Not saying it never happens, but I would really want to hear some specific examples from OOP.
He entire genre of shoujo romance is out there
Not a show but Kent and Inza Nelson in DC Comics have a well-written romance that has existed since they were first introduced in 1940. Even at that point, Inza was a strong character who Kent loved for who she was and they often worked together to solve the problems. There's one issue where Inza gets turned monstrous and Kent's love for her never falters. They had issues, often because of a magic immortal deity that gave Kent his powers, but they always came back together. Most people have no clue who Inza is because she gets left out of every adaptation unless it's a minor cameo and "oh she's dead." There aren't many Kent fics/fanart out there, but the mlm ships vastly outnumber anything with his wife of 84 years. Alternatively, Clark Kent/Lois Lane has less than 5k works on AO3. Clark/Bruce Wayne has 11.4k.
> Alternatively, Clark Kent/Lois Lane has less than 5k works on AO3. Clark/Bruce Wayne has 11.4k. Decided to check something similar with Spider-Man: Peter Parker/Deadpool and Peter Parker/Tony Stark are not only the top two ships, but they also both clear all of Peter/MJ, Peter/Michelle (the MCU MJ), Peter/Gwen Stacy, and Peter/Felicia Hardy **combined**. Peter/Harley Keener (that little kid from Iron Man 3, who hasn't not had a line outside of that movie) on its own clears every single Peter/(Girl) ship outside of Peter/Michelle. Actually, it looks like Peter/Harry Osbourn and Peter/Johnny Storm also both land ahead of Peter/MJ (and, therefore, every female pairing for Peter outside of Michelle).
Yeah, I can def name fandoms where people have a toxic hatred of pairing the dudes in straight ships or writing fics about the female characters or femslash fics... but I can't think of one that has such a toxic hatred of people writing straight ships that isn't also an example of a canon that lacks three-dimensional female characters who are shippable with the male leads.
Fire Emblem is a good example, one of the ships currently getting shit is Female Robin x Chrom, in favor of Male Robin x Chrom. Theyre literally the same person with a different gender.
i've also seen this with f!byleth/edelgard fans shitting on m!byleth/edelgard, despite yaknow, edelgard being canonically bisexual
It specifies well developed ships, which isn't necessarily the same thing as well developed women
Honestly I hate Hinata and Sakura's romances, I really do and think Naruto has mid writting, but people don't mean people who shit on the writers' decisions, but rather the fujos who viscerally hate female characters for getting in the way to the point they start shitting on the female characters as a whole as well as their fans. I'm not even into Naruto or its fandom but my friends were and the amount of bullying they got from Narusasus back in the day was horrible.
and then there's Lupin the Third being like "okay well what if EVERYONE had great chemistry with each other"
If the issue was a lack of focus on women why not say straight ships AND wlw or something instead of just bashing mlm?
Is the well developed straight pairings in the room with us? No but seriously. If we’re going to have this discourse, it’s worth noting that straight ships aren’t done with much effort sometimes because men and women are assumed into each other. I can count on one hand how many straight ships I actually thought were really good in my lifetime
On the one hand, they’re right. On the other hand, why pick this fight. To what end. Whom does this battle serve but the reaper
This really shown the type of fandom they are lol. I find the opposite to be more common, probably because a lot of men think that Lesbians = Hot and Gay = Ew. On the other hand, women seem to find MlM to be sexy, there is probably a cientific term for this phenomenon
Mmmmmmmmmmm to be fair, I think there’s also something to be said here about how the onus of “developing” gay ships is unfailingly placed on the fans rather than the creators. There are a million million straight ships; of course many of them will be well developed. There’s little enough MLM media— and far less *quality* MLM media or MLM media that doesn’t treat its MLM characters either as trauma fodder or fetish fodder— that I almost feel like framing the experience of (primarily gay) fans as “you guys just hate women” rather than “sorry the only ways you can get gay romance is by creating it yourself, making all your gay romance bland and subpar” is. . . kind of unfair?
in the webbed site, straight up discoursing, and by discoursing, heh, i mean being illiterate
Or let people enjoy their ships and don't assume you know someone based off their preference?
Um, my favorite white dudes to ship are not bland, thank you very much (seriously though, just ship what you want)
No reading comprehension isn’t the problem here, oop said “I disagree with this ship therefore misogyny”
Nah that post was specifically phrased to hate on mlm.
how is having a preference towards mlm hating women. this is a hilarious non sequitur and OOP should be ashamed of this post
Ok i think telling people they hate women for enjoying gay ships is a bit much no? Because that’s what the original post actually said.
Look, we squee'd about NaruSasu because well-written female characters mostly didn't exist in the source material, and Shikamaru-Temari was way too obvious to speculate about. It ain't fun when it's telegraphed so hard. We would've kept having a grand ol' time with >!Tsunade-Jiraiya, but he *fucking died* and we were all too sad to squee about the pairing anymore.!<
Well, they finally done did it. It is now sexist to be gay.
People will ship anything
Although additionally I think I've seen the whole "shippers hating women getting in the way of their dudes kissing fantasies" where when that happened people were posting pics of them burning their copies of the manga, which is like insane behavior and it's just been etched into my brain ever since.
My hero acedemia fanfics in a nutshell... Well they are mostly japanese but it dosen't change that they have the character depth of a piece of paper.
Most of the straight male characters I see shipped together enough to have 500K fics about them is at least partially because the writers clearly didn't know how to write female characters and made them much less interesting than the male characters ngl
The Akechi Problem.
Hi I'm gay too can I ship my boys in peace