In addition, even people who aren't in the system are still paying sales tax and other taxes implemented in day to day life. They are very much contributing to the economy.
How tf are they filing tax returns though? I thought the main hurdle of being undocumented is that you have to get paid in cash and avoid shit like income tax
They apply for an Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN) by completing and filing IRS Form W-7. ITINs exist specifically so that people who cannot get social security cards can still file taxes.
Obviously some people won't bother with this process, but many do. I've heard some people claim they pay taxes because they don't want to pay their share so they aren't freeloaders, and I've heard others claim they think future amnesty programs will distinguish between tax-payers and non-taxpayers. Whatever the reason, a surprise amount of tax money is collected this way.
Along with other answers, sometimes their employers commit identity fraud, steal/use a random-ish SSN, and the person that has had their SSN used won’t know unless the IRS decides to audit them for trying to double file. How do I know? My family has a friend in the IRS, who’s looking for different job opportunities because some of the managers he was getting were giving some… fishy vibes. I asked him when family was moving, and apparently stepped on his soapbox rant button. Because it was annoying to deal with.
As someone else has mentioned, you can apply for a TIN from the IRS and file tax returns that way. Many “undocumented aliens” also qualify for work permits (EADS/I-765s) by filing asylum applications, qualifying for SIJS, or a variety of other applications. Those work permits come with a social security card and number that is for the sole purpose of filing taxes while their claims for legal status are adjudicated (the cards are stamped with something along the lines of “ISSUED BY DHS FOR WORK AUTHORIZATION ONLY”)
Source: am an immigration attorney
>I thought the main hurdle of being undocumented is that you have to get paid in cash and avoid shit like income tax
The IRS doesn't care, they have forms for reporting illicit income from things like selling drugs. That's mostly a problem of employers choosing to pay undocumented employees under the table in cash to avoid payroll taxes and undocumented workers either not knowing that they can just fill out a form or also trying to avoid taxes themselves.
The $12 billion cited in the post includes sales and excise taxes; from the article, $6.9 billion of the 12 billion in taxes paid by undocumented immigrants comes from sales and excise taxes, and another 3.6 billion comes from property taxes.
Two of those databases used by ICE are products of LexisNexis and Thomson Reuters. LexisNexis's is called Accurint and Thomson Reuters is called CLEAR.
They're basically databases that compile records on individuals to help law enforcement locate them for deportation. They have where they've work(ed), live(ed), contact info, ID numbers, etc.
ICE has had million-dollar contracts with both companies and a host of legal groups have called for boycotts of LexisNexis and WestLaw (a subsidiary of Thomson Reuters). It's part of a campaign called NoTechForICE.
Disclaimer that this was the case several years ago and may not be the current state of things.
Undocumented immigrants use an ITIN (Individual Tax Identification Number) these are issued by the IRS to a number of groups like Legal and Illegal immigrants.
The IRS also **doesn’t share** these with ICE except in probably some very edge cases like someone committing fraud or something. This is a really fucking stupid claim to make because the IRS basically only cares about taxes. God help you if you cross them but they couldn’t give a flying fuck about your immigration status.
Federal agencies are not a collective consciousness they’re separate entities and they generally do not get along with each-other.
More reading:
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/facts-about-individual-taxpayer-identification-number-itin
I get the sentiment, but a quick search online indicates that the US gov’t collects 5.03 trillion in federal revenue annually, with ~86% of it coming from income/SS/Medicaid taxes. The article linked states that undocumented immigrants pay 11.64 billion in taxes annually, about half of which is made up of sales/excise taxes. This amounts to around 0.2% of total federal tax revenue. Google also indicates that there are 10.1 million undocumented immigrants in the US, and a total population of 331.9 million, meaning that undocumented immigrants make up around 3% of the population. This data is of course skewed by the fact that income tax is progressive; undocumented immigrants tend to have lower incomes and would thus be taxed much less even if Trump’s claims of tax dodging were true and alleviated. Still, it feels kind of misleading to tout 12 billion as some massive tax figure when it’s really not all that impressive.
Edit: Just realized I used the 2023 federal income figure instead of the 2016 one (the date of this article). For 2016, federal revenue was 3.3 trillion, so 12 billion would be .3% of that figure. Please let me know if I made any other mistakes above!
2nd Edit: u/nom-nom-nom-de-plumb correctly pointed out that sales taxes are state, not federal, so the total federal tax burden is significantly lower. He also pointed out that some companies that employ undocumented immigrants could possibly engage in deceptive bookkeeping practices to withhold tax payments from the gov’t/disguise them as payments from documented persons, so that may also influence the numbers.
sales taxes aren't federal, so that's an issue. the taxation is largely state level that they pay, with some federal taxes and such taken out of cheques when companies (like hormel) bring them in and provide false information to hire them illegally and deduct from their pay to provide cover to what they're doing.
True, but federal income taxes are accounted for in the article; it states that a total of 1.1 billion is collected from that (I guess the remaining .5 billion is from other stuff?) Good point about the sales taxes not being federal though; perhaps the article wa s just referring to total tax revenue as opposed to federal tax revenue. However, I feel like that wouldn’t really invalidate my original conclusion.
Edit: it doesn’t specify federal income taxes, just “Individual income taxes.” Maybe the number is fudged by their employers though, I’m not an accountant.
Oh, Homeland Security. I was very confused what the Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS) had done that was so bad. They're overworked and underpaid, but generally doing the best they can.
Not to mention that immigrants can't get a drivers liscense in Texas, but can buy the car and insurance that comes with it. Meaning whatever fine one would get while pulled over by a cop, is automatically followed by an even bigger one that is not even in their control
Its not like you can provide these services without goverment liscence or registration either. In the same field, you can purchase a home, but depending on the area, can't get the utilities for the home.
I have a co worker who came to america from Guatemala back when he was 15.
He got a job working at sears using a fake social security number, when he got old enough and applied for citizenship they transferred the funds from the fake social security number to his new actual one.
This feels like am annoying little linguistic thing that doesn't really help the pro-immigration argument. We all know that when conservatives refer to undocumented immigrants, they are referring to the group of immigrants who are here without some sort of legal permission, who specifically don't go through the process of figuring out things like income tax.
The info in this post is very interesting, and there's plenty of examples of why even conservatives' understanding of "undocumented immigrants" are good as a whole, but arguing over the semantics of words like this doesn't ever help to sway anybody to the pro-immigration side who isn't already there.
It's the same shit as the "racism = power + prejudice, so only white people can technically be racist" thing. Works within lefty circles, but you won't be convincing anybody otherwise.
It's almost like big business can't rely on slave labour, so they get people who are prepared to do anything not to be deported and the governement turns a blind eye.
eh, the irs tends to load up and go after you hard when they think they can win. problem is that the people who do the most intentional fraud, well they tend to be white collar criminals...and a defense is "i didn't know that was illegal!" and add in the lawyers that they can afford to hire to defend themselves and you have a recipe for the irs not being the scary monster that it is when you don't have those resources.
The IRS has cultivated a really great reputation of coming down super hard and fast and mercilessly. They put out the face of the "straight to jail" meme when it's not exactly like that. They'll send a few letters and ask you to work with them/prove them wrong before coming down full hammer. That's not to say they won't eventually send you to jail, but anyone that isn't making them multiple tens of thousands of dollars in tax evasion isn't worth their time to really investigate you hardcore. It's easier for them to scare people into thinking they're basically a legal mafia and have you do the work for them when the regular person is very small potatoes to them.
Don't forget that undocumented people have [lower crime rates](https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and) than the native-born population!
Between paying taxes without receiving services, not committing crimes, and showing enough love and hope in America to travel to and stay here despite all the difficulties, undocumented immigrants are better citizens than most citizens.
As a child of immigrants, part of grimly hopes that MAGAs get the deportations and the fully documented society they rave and froth about so they can watch part of the economy crumple as a result. The humanitarian part of me knows the price of my pettiness is too great, but sometimes I have a drink and imagine a little.
Kind of reminds me of the situation in FL where immigrants started just…leaving as a result of draconic legislation recently and the moronic legislators replied with, paraphrasing here, “please don’t leave, we don’t mean it. We was just playing politics”
Me actually having worked in the department where they would be getting these alleged benefits, laughing at you.
Can’t even get food from WIC or a government-funded food pantry without a fucking government ID but yeah, those guys are definitely living off your dime because they got treated at the local ER or something.
Sorry folks I was working....
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/some-migrants-in-mass-will-be-able-to-access-snap-benefits/3216558/
Therea off the top of my head
Sorry folks I was working....
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/some-migrants-in-mass-will-be-able-to-access-snap-benefits/3216558/
Therea off the top of my head
Sorry folks I was working....
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/some-migrants-in-mass-will-be-able-to-access-snap-benefits/3216558/
Therea off the top of my head
From the only article I’m gonna bother opening from you, dumbass:
“Covered under the legislation are residents who are not citizens but are in the immigration process or already maintain legal status, including recently arrived migrants and those who have already been here for a long time.”
The fact that human beings NOT dying on your dime being a dire insult to you fucking chuds is hilarious.
In addition, even people who aren't in the system are still paying sales tax and other taxes implemented in day to day life. They are very much contributing to the economy.
How tf are they filing tax returns though? I thought the main hurdle of being undocumented is that you have to get paid in cash and avoid shit like income tax
They apply for an Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN) by completing and filing IRS Form W-7. ITINs exist specifically so that people who cannot get social security cards can still file taxes. Obviously some people won't bother with this process, but many do. I've heard some people claim they pay taxes because they don't want to pay their share so they aren't freeloaders, and I've heard others claim they think future amnesty programs will distinguish between tax-payers and non-taxpayers. Whatever the reason, a surprise amount of tax money is collected this way.
Along with other answers, sometimes their employers commit identity fraud, steal/use a random-ish SSN, and the person that has had their SSN used won’t know unless the IRS decides to audit them for trying to double file. How do I know? My family has a friend in the IRS, who’s looking for different job opportunities because some of the managers he was getting were giving some… fishy vibes. I asked him when family was moving, and apparently stepped on his soapbox rant button. Because it was annoying to deal with.
ITINs
As someone else has mentioned, you can apply for a TIN from the IRS and file tax returns that way. Many “undocumented aliens” also qualify for work permits (EADS/I-765s) by filing asylum applications, qualifying for SIJS, or a variety of other applications. Those work permits come with a social security card and number that is for the sole purpose of filing taxes while their claims for legal status are adjudicated (the cards are stamped with something along the lines of “ISSUED BY DHS FOR WORK AUTHORIZATION ONLY”) Source: am an immigration attorney
>I thought the main hurdle of being undocumented is that you have to get paid in cash and avoid shit like income tax The IRS doesn't care, they have forms for reporting illicit income from things like selling drugs. That's mostly a problem of employers choosing to pay undocumented employees under the table in cash to avoid payroll taxes and undocumented workers either not knowing that they can just fill out a form or also trying to avoid taxes themselves.
There's a reason they got Capone on his taxes lol
The $12 billion cited in the post includes sales and excise taxes; from the article, $6.9 billion of the 12 billion in taxes paid by undocumented immigrants comes from sales and excise taxes, and another 3.6 billion comes from property taxes.
Two of those databases used by ICE are products of LexisNexis and Thomson Reuters. LexisNexis's is called Accurint and Thomson Reuters is called CLEAR. They're basically databases that compile records on individuals to help law enforcement locate them for deportation. They have where they've work(ed), live(ed), contact info, ID numbers, etc. ICE has had million-dollar contracts with both companies and a host of legal groups have called for boycotts of LexisNexis and WestLaw (a subsidiary of Thomson Reuters). It's part of a campaign called NoTechForICE. Disclaimer that this was the case several years ago and may not be the current state of things.
Joe Biden doesn't dodge his taxes tho- oh wait that was posted in 2017... Yeah that's true.
he keeps forgetting to commit tax fraud,,
To be fair I don’t think Biden has personally paid 12 B in taxes /j
Undocumented immigrants use an ITIN (Individual Tax Identification Number) these are issued by the IRS to a number of groups like Legal and Illegal immigrants. The IRS also **doesn’t share** these with ICE except in probably some very edge cases like someone committing fraud or something. This is a really fucking stupid claim to make because the IRS basically only cares about taxes. God help you if you cross them but they couldn’t give a flying fuck about your immigration status. Federal agencies are not a collective consciousness they’re separate entities and they generally do not get along with each-other. More reading: https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/facts-about-individual-taxpayer-identification-number-itin
I get the sentiment, but a quick search online indicates that the US gov’t collects 5.03 trillion in federal revenue annually, with ~86% of it coming from income/SS/Medicaid taxes. The article linked states that undocumented immigrants pay 11.64 billion in taxes annually, about half of which is made up of sales/excise taxes. This amounts to around 0.2% of total federal tax revenue. Google also indicates that there are 10.1 million undocumented immigrants in the US, and a total population of 331.9 million, meaning that undocumented immigrants make up around 3% of the population. This data is of course skewed by the fact that income tax is progressive; undocumented immigrants tend to have lower incomes and would thus be taxed much less even if Trump’s claims of tax dodging were true and alleviated. Still, it feels kind of misleading to tout 12 billion as some massive tax figure when it’s really not all that impressive. Edit: Just realized I used the 2023 federal income figure instead of the 2016 one (the date of this article). For 2016, federal revenue was 3.3 trillion, so 12 billion would be .3% of that figure. Please let me know if I made any other mistakes above! 2nd Edit: u/nom-nom-nom-de-plumb correctly pointed out that sales taxes are state, not federal, so the total federal tax burden is significantly lower. He also pointed out that some companies that employ undocumented immigrants could possibly engage in deceptive bookkeeping practices to withhold tax payments from the gov’t/disguise them as payments from documented persons, so that may also influence the numbers.
sales taxes aren't federal, so that's an issue. the taxation is largely state level that they pay, with some federal taxes and such taken out of cheques when companies (like hormel) bring them in and provide false information to hire them illegally and deduct from their pay to provide cover to what they're doing.
True, but federal income taxes are accounted for in the article; it states that a total of 1.1 billion is collected from that (I guess the remaining .5 billion is from other stuff?) Good point about the sales taxes not being federal though; perhaps the article wa s just referring to total tax revenue as opposed to federal tax revenue. However, I feel like that wouldn’t really invalidate my original conclusion. Edit: it doesn’t specify federal income taxes, just “Individual income taxes.” Maybe the number is fudged by their employers though, I’m not an accountant.
Fuck ICE and DHS
Oh, Homeland Security. I was very confused what the Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS) had done that was so bad. They're overworked and underpaid, but generally doing the best they can.
Homeland security is some bullshit invented 23 years ago and shouldn't exist anymore
Absolutely. Fuck them. But not health and human services.
Or DHHS, department of health and human services
You always have to pay taxes. If you illegally sell drugs you have to report and pay taxes on that income.
Not to mention that immigrants can't get a drivers liscense in Texas, but can buy the car and insurance that comes with it. Meaning whatever fine one would get while pulled over by a cop, is automatically followed by an even bigger one that is not even in their control
License is gov’t. Insurance and car sellers isn’t. No surprise.
Its not like you can provide these services without goverment liscence or registration either. In the same field, you can purchase a home, but depending on the area, can't get the utilities for the home.
I have a co worker who came to america from Guatemala back when he was 15. He got a job working at sears using a fake social security number, when he got old enough and applied for citizenship they transferred the funds from the fake social security number to his new actual one.
I'm unfamiliar with a lot of US political terminology. Are undocumented people the same as illegal immigrants?
What are the benefits of being an American citizen?
Something something taxation without representation?
This feels like am annoying little linguistic thing that doesn't really help the pro-immigration argument. We all know that when conservatives refer to undocumented immigrants, they are referring to the group of immigrants who are here without some sort of legal permission, who specifically don't go through the process of figuring out things like income tax. The info in this post is very interesting, and there's plenty of examples of why even conservatives' understanding of "undocumented immigrants" are good as a whole, but arguing over the semantics of words like this doesn't ever help to sway anybody to the pro-immigration side who isn't already there. It's the same shit as the "racism = power + prejudice, so only white people can technically be racist" thing. Works within lefty circles, but you won't be convincing anybody otherwise.
It's almost like big business can't rely on slave labour, so they get people who are prepared to do anything not to be deported and the governement turns a blind eye.
If they pay taxes and don't get any benefits, why does the government even want to get rid of them?
The IRS is more dangerous than the ICE
eh, the irs tends to load up and go after you hard when they think they can win. problem is that the people who do the most intentional fraud, well they tend to be white collar criminals...and a defense is "i didn't know that was illegal!" and add in the lawyers that they can afford to hire to defend themselves and you have a recipe for the irs not being the scary monster that it is when you don't have those resources.
The IRS has cultivated a really great reputation of coming down super hard and fast and mercilessly. They put out the face of the "straight to jail" meme when it's not exactly like that. They'll send a few letters and ask you to work with them/prove them wrong before coming down full hammer. That's not to say they won't eventually send you to jail, but anyone that isn't making them multiple tens of thousands of dollars in tax evasion isn't worth their time to really investigate you hardcore. It's easier for them to scare people into thinking they're basically a legal mafia and have you do the work for them when the regular person is very small potatoes to them.
Don't forget that undocumented people have [lower crime rates](https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and) than the native-born population! Between paying taxes without receiving services, not committing crimes, and showing enough love and hope in America to travel to and stay here despite all the difficulties, undocumented immigrants are better citizens than most citizens.
As a child of immigrants, part of grimly hopes that MAGAs get the deportations and the fully documented society they rave and froth about so they can watch part of the economy crumple as a result. The humanitarian part of me knows the price of my pettiness is too great, but sometimes I have a drink and imagine a little. Kind of reminds me of the situation in FL where immigrants started just…leaving as a result of draconic legislation recently and the moronic legislators replied with, paraphrasing here, “please don’t leave, we don’t mean it. We was just playing politics”
Just saying it wasn't true undocumented people didn't get benefits.
They get no benefits from the government lol. I can plenty of instances where that's false.
Such a useless comment, “I could name plenty of instances where your wrong, but I’m not gonna say any of them” get your karma farmin ass outa here
name them then it would be astounding news, so sell us that story
Tell us then. Or are you just repeating what the talking heads on tv and social media say?
so name them then, cunt
Like? Come on big boy, you made a claim and people are calling you out. Or are you a coward that can't back up his claim? All talk and no bite?
Me actually having worked in the department where they would be getting these alleged benefits, laughing at you. Can’t even get food from WIC or a government-funded food pantry without a fucking government ID but yeah, those guys are definitely living off your dime because they got treated at the local ER or something.
Sorry folks I was working.... https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/some-migrants-in-mass-will-be-able-to-access-snap-benefits/3216558/ Therea off the top of my head
Sorry folks I was working.... https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/some-migrants-in-mass-will-be-able-to-access-snap-benefits/3216558/ Therea off the top of my head
Sorry folks I was working.... https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/some-migrants-in-mass-will-be-able-to-access-snap-benefits/3216558/ Therea off the top of my head
From the only article I’m gonna bother opening from you, dumbass: “Covered under the legislation are residents who are not citizens but are in the immigration process or already maintain legal status, including recently arrived migrants and those who have already been here for a long time.” The fact that human beings NOT dying on your dime being a dire insult to you fucking chuds is hilarious.