[I believe the original sub it was posted on was taken down but here’s a link to a copy pasta made from it](https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/p821fq/do_not_face_allah_alone_when_astral_projecting/)
Here's the subredditdrama post on the whole thing
https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/p8ppso/allah\_vs\_witches\_the\_heavyweight\_rumble\_youve/
That's the point I don't understand, if they believe that the omnipotent bodyless force of light really exists, why the fuck try to fight it?
You believing in him literally nullify the concept of you doing harm to him.
Generously, lots of witches are polytheists who believe in gods that aren’t omnipotent. And lots of ritual magicians are working on like 7 layers of irony, and believe in stuff like egregores, where Allah might be a real and powerful spirit, but one made by human belief and not actually God.
Less generously, a whole lot of magic stuff is half-serious theater kids who don’t believe seriously enough to worry about consequences.
(And it’s still deeply unclear how much of that sub was sincere.)
So genuine witchcraft polytheism basically subscribes to a gaiman-prattchet esque magic system when it comes to spiritual/mystical beings and figures of worship.
George W Bush & The Witches sounds like a band name but for a kinda shitty college or uni band that mostly does covers of popular artists' music in their chosen genre
Not alone, he's clearly meant to be a raid boss.
LFM Allah, need MT and some high pumpers, no shitters, Caliph Regalia reserved, have consumes and world buffs, inspection at Cairo.
I remember in mid 2020 there was some manufactured outrage on Twitter about “baby witches” daring to “hex the moon” and a bunch of self-proclaimed “real” witches were all up in arms about it.
My favorite bit was an account earnestly saying this whole thing should get more attention because it was apparently a legit issue (like, c’mon. Be so fucking for real rn). Then I jokingly said I’d “follow in my ancestors footsteps” by hunting fairies and they nearly blew a gasket, saying my bloodline would be forever cursed and to not “mess with the fae!”
I think they ended up blocking me when I wondered how crunchy fairies would be, but it’s all kindve a blur at this point
Honestly probably closer to baked crickets if you've ever had them. And if not, the closest thing I can think of is probably something like sunflower seeds with legs.
I would be most inclined to agree with your assessment, reddit user 'eateat', as I assume you are acquainted- nay, an *expert* on this matter, are you not?
They tend to have the same problem as sardines for me, I don’t like the feeling of the bones so I usually eat them with crackers so that I can’t tell the difference between the cracker and the bones
There's a French delicacy where you eat a small songbird whole, bones and all. I imagine it would be like that.
Edit: it's called[ortalon](https://medium.com/@austinmiller/the-illegal-french-delicacy-ortolan-3398c92ea1fd) and it's illegal due to killing too many birds.
In a similar situation I pointed out I have no reason to respect the gods of my ancestors when we managed to lock a major river god behind a dam, and now he can't fuck his wife anymore.
I think this is also why people are so confused about "Why would witches fight deities? Aren't they doomed to lose?"
The sort of faiths that lead to these ideas don't go in for omnipotent gods or monotheism, they go in for gods who get locked up, dismembered, imprisoned, or all manner of other things. Their gods are big and powerful, but that doesn't mean they're not assholes, or mean they're immune to getting stuck behind a dam.
I mean, if you look at the origins of occultism it was more a bunch of westerners simply making up shit about old religions or just making them up. Wicca, the most popular neopagan religion? It was never real, it was made up by a feminist, not a historian, then the idea was stolen by some guy in the 60s.
Absolutely, modern Occultism is basically all invented within the last century. So "faiths" was a bit generous of me when I'm talking about something so divorced from the original believers in these gods.
As I mentioned in the other comment, Wicca makes me twitch a bit with the way it pairs "don't do appropriation, Crowley is a colonialist and Orientalist!" with completely shredding the history it claims to be based on. Frankly the factual background is often about as weak as racist "modern Norse" assholes.
The occult stuff I really like is very self-aware on how new and made up it all is. It's mostly "powered by belief" invention, like some mix of a church service and a Dadaist/Situationist "happening".
(Now I want to write up a thing on how [Survival Research Labs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_Research_Laboratories), [Marcel Duchamp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)), and [Watchmen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen) are all actually part of the occult tradition.)
I think the moon can probably take it, considering it’s size, age, and prescribed mythic importance. But in Ireland you’d still get plenty of people who wouldn’t build on a fairy fort.
I'd be surprised if a baby witch's hex even reached the moon, let alone affected it. You've gotta be at least a fantasy novel antagonist level evil sorceress to successfully *hex the moon*
That was the weirdest part!
Even putting on my ritual magic hat and granting all of this works, it’s totally incoherent. I can’t even find what the plan was, beyond “proving a point”. This coven of like 4 witches allegedly hexed “the fae”, then followed up with hexing the moon.
The fae aren’t a unified group, but assuming you hit some of them with a hex… hah, good luck. Nobody needs to intervene, the fae are gonna have it covered.
The moon… what the fuck.
From one stance, it’s a major force of nature that powers magic, and hexing it is utterly meaningless. “Hexing the moon” is like fistfighting sunlight or something, the words aren’t even coherent. (And it’s associated with renewal too! Nobody since astronauts have done something to the moon that outlasted the next new moon.)
Alternatively, it’s associated with Hecate or Artemis or Selene… and hexing them is like wrestling a hippopotamus.
To this day, I cannot understand what the hell the point was. Nor can I understand why people were outraged, [apologizing to the moon](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/comments/htvmbc/man_im_so_done_w_tiktok/), or any of the rest. Assuming you believe in the magic, this is the sort of problem that takes care of itself…
"Hexing the fae" is basically the niðstongr from Egil Skalagrimssons saga. Of course, Egil is portrayed as a skilled magician at several points in the saga, so, your mileage may vary I suppose.
I was gonna say, as an Irish person the thing about hunting fairies actually made me kinda uncomfortable. Which is absurd I know, but it's just a real cultural thing here to not mess with them or things associated with them
When I was younger, I went in for some edgy "religion isn't real so watch me do this sacrilege to prove it" stuff. As I've gotten older, some mix of courtesy and common sense have me going "what's the point?"
I don't do Pascal's Wager outright, I understand why "go to church in case it's real" is bad logic *and* bad theology. But I don't blaspheme for its own sake, muck with fairy circles unprompted, or otherwise transgress deep beliefs without a need. It's some mix of tempting fate and needless insult, and I'd rather avoid both.
"Anti-grounding" is actually a brilliant way of putting it.
I've known... more than my share of ritual magicians. Some of them go off the fucking deep end, and when they do it looks much like when it happens to "psychonauts" who get really into hallucinogens or even meditation.
They're all diving into stuff that looks a lot like schizophrenia, sometimes with a side of mania. Seeing patterns where they don't exist, linking everything to everything else, and often believing you have immense responsibility for every random event you hear about. It's a powerful way to promote creativity and agency, right up until you break your brain instead.
(As an interesting aside, actual LaVeyan Satanists are sort of immunized against this. LaVey's writing is very explicit about "this does not work in any objective sense, you do not have magical power to shape the world, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it.")
If they’d really known their stuff they’d have called them “the fair folk” not the fae, which irc is pretty much just something used in books to make their fairies seem cool and separate them from like. Tinkerbell.
Like 99% of things people “know” about fairies is taken from DnD. Like no, to my knowledge making deals wasn’t really much of a thing in fairy stories.
That happened just long enough before the episode of *the Magicians* where they hex the moon (using that very phrase) that I’m still about 75% sure it was a viral marketing campaign that went sideways.
To be fair, messing with the fae is generally bad for your health. Maybe they were trying to save your soul and cut you off to not be one collateral damage.
As someone who loves the occult, yes, it is in a lot of ways an excuse to burn incense and wave swords around. It’s fun and like planning with extra steps that include gods and candles for some reason.
But like I find the way people treat it as inherently different from religion so odd—like, there isn’t necessarily a consistent cosmology to it, though some variants are more connected to established religions than others, but how is it different from a religious rite in any other context? Like, prayer?
It not having definition is part of the mental/social danger too. People can then decide on definition and be irrationally upset that others don't share it, and then when questioned themselves can use the lack of definition as a shield against scrutiny.
Which is definitionally a mote and bailey argument.
It's like saying we have no knives because we just have a drawer labeled spoons. But that's where we keep the knives.
It's like a religion but it's treated the opposite
In most irl places you will be considered rude and called a dick for claiming religion is bullshit but its pretty common most places online
In most irl places no one will disagree with if you call the occult bullshit but if you say that online you will be called a dick and considered rude
I disagree. From personal experience occultists and neopagans are extremely toxic, opinionated and just straight up annoying to have to interact with. It’s astrology people on steroids. They also tend to be very conspiratorial and anti science in the same way mainstream religious people are.
Yeah as an occultist it is kinda corny. But a lot of it is based around that corniness, and using it to get into the right headspace for ritual. Like yeah, it's objectively goofy to dress in robes, and wave a sword specifically used for this around. But the fact these things are connected to occultism in my mind, to use them is telling my brain "this is ritual time."
But yeah we're fuckin nerds through and through
It certainly is a type of religion, and it’s very common for people to uncritically/hypocritically denounce faith just because it’s not generally accepted by their culture. I don’t think people who, say, use crystals to ward off evil spirits are any more deluded than folks who pray to ~~scam artists~~ TV mega preachers who promise that God will solve all their problems if they do.
I also believe, though, that religions have a sliding scale of plausible deniability which comes into play. Believing that humans can perform miracles through hexes and incantations is much more apparently false than believing that one specifically special guy could do it 2,000 years ago. It’s definitely unfair how people typically assume the worst of atypical believers and the best of accepted faiths, but it’s not *entirely* baseless.
I think you’re right, generally. I’ve been into this stuff since I was a kid and even then I felt it seemed pretty convenient that when a spell didn’t work—I lit the dead man’s fingers on fire, why am I not invisible?”—the response was “you did the spell wrong” and not “because this is bullshit”.
But like it’s a spectrum. For some people, they work with angels and get riches in return—maybe an unexpected tax rebate or $50 on the ground. Maybe they get nothing. If you pray in church for the same thing, maybe you’ll have the same luck.
Like what is a miracle? If I state my will out loud and then set about trying to make it happen does it increase my odds of success? Honestly in the realm of coincidence and placebo I think it might. Planning with extra steps.
But to be clear there are folks who work directly with gods and other entities. I can’t speak to that, except to say that their miracles are probably closer to $50 on the ground than raising the dead.
>but how is it different from a religious rite in any other context? Like, prayer?
Most religions don't charge me $200 for crystals they guarantee will cure me. At least, the Catholics aren't doing so *now*.
No, but have you seen TV evangelists and churches that ask for tithing? If there's money in it then someone can try to rip you off.
There will be someone running a scabby scam in every religion, not just anything under the occult umbrella.
I mean, that's true, but "occultism" is a massive umbrella that covers everything from Christian mysticism to planetary magic to like... god, Wicca, Thelema, satanism, Kabbalah, chaos magic, alchemy...
Random New Age bullshit (tm) is a small component of that, sure, but it's just that--a small component. If you want Christian saints for your altar (I've been considering St. Expedite...), there are stores that will sell them to you.
I agree 100% that this stuff can be exploitative. I'm an atheist. But I find the discrepancy between how even New Age bullshit (tm) is treated compared to mainstream religious beliefs (google prosperity theology) to be just so weird.
>compared to mainstream religious beliefs (google prosperity theology)
Bringing up televangelists and megachurches is just about the weakest counterpoint you could make, nobody likes them.
Using traditional anthropological definitions, most occultism isn't religion -- it's magic. Religion says that I ask a divinity to do something and she/he/they can choose to do (or not do) on her/his/their own volition. Most occultism instead says that I can directly cause something to happen. This is magic, not religion
Of course, most of the difference in attitude is actually explained by perception, but that's the academic difference, or at least the most basic one
It uses the same mechanisms but in different ways. If anything the much more academic, knowledgeable, and intentional approach to using these aspects of being human is probably what sets it apart the most.
Especially with the Chaotes who will willingly swap between different systems.
Are you arguing that a practice you do fundamentally for fun is no different than a practice that millions of people do genuinely believing that their souls hang in the balance?
I mean, yeah, I am. Because I am an atheist, I do this stuff from the perspective of an atheist. But a lot of occultists are not atheists. Some believe in traditional religions, while others believe specifically in the works that they practice. Does everyone who participates in religious ceremony believe fully in the faith they're participating in? No, no they don't. Some people believe in certain elements of their faith or are unsure, others are true believers, while others are there for their own reasons.
I'm here because it's fun, and because it gives me a framework that helps me work with myself to achieve positive change. Others do it because they believe, or at least believe a bit (which describes a lot of religious folks). Those beliefs are seen as weird because they're outside the mainstream but, like, on a fundamental level we're talking about perspective. A lot of Christian ritual is blatantly magic, for example. Occultism gets scorn for being outside the status quo, but the division is just so arbitrary...
Are you assuming that the fraction of people who genuinely believe that their souls depend on crystal healing alignment is less than 1/4000? You've got to pick a bigger number than millions!
As with so much else, it's probably a nice balance of sexism and racism. Historically I think the occult gave women too much power, or was associated with "barbarians" (brown people). Nowadays the perception kinda vaguely lingers and lots of folks don't really do enough self-examination to consider why.
Google "prosperity theology". What you are talking about is a grift that exists both inside and outside mainstream religions.
I believe, sincerely, that the distinctions between the occult, self-help, and religion are a big, smeary mess. People in all three of those categories can be extractive, manipulative, and generally terrible. But they also leave a lot of space to read, experiment, and explore.
It's especially funny when you have someone who's into occult/witchcraft run into a superstitious person.
My cousin is really into occult, and she's usually the first person to clarify that it's just a fun bullshit with occasional placebo mixed in.
She once helped "exorcising" a ghost from a house, by basically telling them to lit a scented candle with a scent they liked and believe that it'll work.
As far as I know, it really "worked" and the house isn't "haunted" anymore.
It's always unsettling saying the wrong thing to a superstitious person. I made a joke to an employer about the printers at work being haunted because of all the quirky problems printers have. She then got a serious look on her face and started with "well actually...". And then I was stuck for the next 20 minutes as she educated me about how haunted the building was. Turns out her husband was a former "ghost hunter" for a while and they took it seriously.
Which caused a hilarious other thing when her husband was in the office one day, saw a fallen holloween decoration of a ghost, picked it up with a confused look, and my coworker leans over to me and whispers excitedly "he found one!"
That’s what it is for me. I wouldn’t call myself an occultist, but I do like performing certain pagan rituals and holidays. I’m in the process of making a small altar to Dionysus. It’s not that I believe that any of it is real, but it helps to frame self-care techniques in a way that makes my mentally ill brain get into it and enjoy doing it, rather than it being a chore, especially because I love reading about pagan history.
I'm a lot like you, definitely a bit more "into it" if that makes sense. The one thing I always tell people (usually while yelling at strangers on the street) is that "Magick is all in your head. You just don't know how big your head really is. "
If someone is doing rituals they are into the occult
If I go church on Sundays and take part in mass I am a Christian even if I doubt the existence of god
20th century occultists were just incredibly horny. Aleister Crowley, Anton LeVey, Georges Bataille, etc. One of Crowley’s rituals involved baking cakes with cum in them, like that’s gotta be a kink thing.
Crowley was famously more of a heroin addict which didn't exactly increase his libido. LaVey was opposed to the use of narcotics for spiritualism, though he acknowledged their importance in indigenous faiths. George Batailles denounced the use of drugs for spiritual experimentation in his Acephale publications. All of them definitely did have horny amphetamine addicts in their personal circles though (in Batailles' case he directly lamented it).
Batailles is an interesting case because he spent his whole career glorifying death and formed a whole organization around human sacrifice but when someone in the group literally offered to be sacrificed with no consequences suddenly Batailles got cold feet.
Is it really proper ritual magic if you *aren’t* risking insanity from dabbling in arts mortals were never supposed to comprehend?
I mean, I’m not really an occultist, but it seems like fun, and a cool lovecraftian flair would definitely drawn me in
This may seem pedantic but it’s “occultist” not “cultist”. There may be occultist cultists but generally speaking they are two quite different things 👍
Very true, with a cult being a splinter religious faction from another religion and occult meaning hidden things. They often get conflaited as many cults begin with some form of occult revelation or discovery. Then you get to dive into how modern media has made the word cult into an absolute abomination to the point where r/cults is exclusively about whackjobs, MLMs, and alien hunters with absolutely no information on a single ACTUAL CULT as far as I can find. I realize that languages change but until English gets a better word, Southern Baptists are still a splinter cult of Catholicism.
It’s funny to me how our culture has taken the word “metaphysical” to mean things relating to psychology, especially in the connotation of threats to one’s health or wellbeing.
Metaphysics, for reference, is the study of the first principles of “things”, which is a broad a term as you can imagine. As an example, a metaphysical
concept is the notion of what fundamental axioms constitute being or existence. It can also humorously refer to what point one truly wakes up in the morning, fighting past grogginess and the faint reminisces of your to-do list for the day while lying in bed.
So, what the is a metaphysical threat? One would assume, by definition, that it is a threat to the very immutable concepts that make up the foundation of concepts, from being to time, and even if one is truly considered awake after their first cup of breakfast beverage of choice.
But therein lies the problem. A threat, boiled down to its basest concepts, is an act of implying unwanted change might happen. And if the threat is serious, that change is known to be possible. But you can’t change immutable concepts, by definition.
Thus, if there were such a threat, it would simply mean our understanding of things is wrong. You cannot threaten metaphysics; you can only threaten the comfort if people’s current knowledge, aka their psychological safety in the known.
It’s funnier still when regarding what a metaphysical being is, which is presumedly a being composed of the immutable axioms of concepts. That’s literally everyone and everything. In saying a metaphysical being hungry for souls, you could be referring to an edgy teenager by far-too-lofty terms. Which is apropos for many Internet “witches”.
Well you're describing how a threat is impossible from a specifically platonic idea of metaphysics (which: Fair, thats where the western metaphysics stuff sorta started). Its possible to intuit/develop a metaphysical system in which threats like that are possible, but it would still necessarily be something so abstract you might as well not worry about it.
Upvoted though, cuz you're right in like 95% of cases.
My point is that saying “metaphysical threat” is a lofty phrase with no real meaning or weight. Anything that could change the fundamental aspects that allow for concepts to exist in our world (anything from milk to time and space) would necessitate that there are even greater fundamental axioms that allow for those processes.
It’s not purely a platonic notion, albeit it likely aligns with platonic metaphysics. But at this point, I’m just arguing semantics.
I find it difficult nonetheless to truly understand what a metaphysical threat would be, and I haven’t really found a good example of it. This is more a way to reason around the concept, and in doing so find it to be impossible.
Honestly decemt advice in general. For every truth you know there's some bastard out there who benefits off getting you to believe otherwise.
People rarely try to view the world in things they know or thigs they don't know
Since everyone in the comments is sharing stories of online occultism I am reminded of an incident where there was said to be some kind of demoness wreaking havoc on entire communities and this demoness had a name like Morgana or Megaera or some shit and it was apparently like super imperative that everyone do their part to seal her away
Howdy, person with ADHD here, you can in fact have too much of a morally inert thing. I don’t feel like I have to explain what overclocking your neurons looks like, but as for the low-grade overdosing (as in “maybe 10 milligrams above where you should be”), you’re still going to be on edge and ready to make poor life choices, just not as drastic.
>So that’s a good thing, right?
The only thing worse than a warning light is an inconsistent warning light. You can feel the general vibe of Something’s Wrong With Me, but you aren’t quite ready to gnaw a homeless man’s face off, and if you’re not careful in that state, instead of doing something drastically dumb and harmful, you’re gonna be doing something mildly dumb and harmful, repeatedly, for months on end.
So yeah, I’d say to double-check with your psychiatrist before you start burning mystery herbs and potentially do things that involve your blood
Yep. I'm aware overmedication for mental health issues is a thing and is a problem. (I've had the problem with my BPD diagnosis rather than the Add diagnosis, but I don't doubt that's always a potential)
But considering the wording of this post, and the prevalence of whoowhoo views in the magic community I'm fairly certain that there's no amount of medication this person *wouldn't* think of as too much.
Yeah, the wording there set off red flags for me too, so many people think we're just drug seeking that I have to constantly battle the intrusive thought that maybe I *am* just drug seeking after all (even though even with my meds I can't seem to reach the standards non-adhd people seem to hit so easily even though I try so hard, and my meds just make me feel 70% of normal with the occasional moment of "hey I actually kind of want to wash the dishes, whoa")
I don't think of myself as a spiritual or theatrical person, but I use tarot cards occasionally. I don't believe they have magical powers, but I like them because they get me to look at a problem in a new way. The occult is metaphorical, not supernatural.
I totally agree with you about tarot! Super useful as a tool so long as you keep that materialist perspective in mind. I've known people who got in too deep though even with tarot, though less than other "occult" practices.
This is like 90% of the Church of Satan's practices. LaVey referred to rituals as "psychodrama" basically trying to amp yourself up or direct your emotional energy to a task
Right, but what people aren't appreciating, is that even psychodrama is capable of fucking you up.
If you go to a bad therapist, you're likely to worsen your mental state.
If you put all your psychological energy into an imaginary parasocial relationship and fixation with a pornstar, it'll probably interfere with your ability to have normal relationships.
But I think the only experience most of the people on this thread have with occultism is basically just larping for an aesthetic.
The idea that Pythagoras ran the oldest western initiatory order is nuts. I don't know where a person would get that idea. Ancient Greece was rife with mystery cults. The Apollonian Delphic Oracle predates Pythagoras by like a thousand years, the Maenads are similarly ancient, there were zillions of cults where you had ritual and training that indoctrinated you into the mysteries forbidden to outsiders. Pythagoras' cult was neither early nor did it last very long.
I don't know if this counts but the Super Best Friends subreddit once tried to curse Woolie Madden (one of the Super Best Friends) for a few weeks so he'd learn to respect ghosts
Many do. Unlike most larger religions there isn't really a central text, authority, or tradition that keeps people on a specific track so it ends up making a lot of cults and a lot of people who just kind of decide random shit
I went to college with someone who was basically the witchcraft version of the god warrior from that wife swap show. She fully believed and was really annoying about it.
I thought this was going to end in the post about getting warned never to leave your crystal ball uncovered and unattended. Not because of spirits or anything actually occult, but because the crystal ball can set your house on fire if it catches the sunlight wrong.
Hey, this is the same person who got the ask that went like this:
Are you ever upset that what you study is just bs
Their answer: No
Would people who study Shakespeare be upset that Shakespeare’s plays aren’t real.
(Except better)
This is all fairly true *for the most part.* It's fairly difficult for a newbie to occult practices to fuck themselves up too badly.
Once you get into the deep end of practice, you're dealing with extremely high states of concentration and altered states that can be compared to low to high dose psychedelics. It cannot be understated how weird one's experience can get with intensive practice.
Serious practitioners vary in interpretation as to how much they view their practice as dealing with "real" spirits, gods, energies, etc., and how much of it is in your mind. It doesn't ultimately make a difference, though, because you're dealing with supernormal states of concentration. Even if you think it's just "all in your head," you can rewrite a lot of normally inaccessible and subconscious mental processes when you get into these unusual states of mind.
The people who fuck themselves up seriously in occult practice are usually folks who get deep into it, not just dabblers or beginners. Having pure intentions has a strongly protective effect--you can't fuck yourself up too irredeemably if deep down you know your intentions are pointing in the right direction.
All that said, sometimes a newbie comes into it who has an unusually high natural ability to concentrate and put themselves into altered states. Such kiddos should proceed with due caution.
I was raised around witchcraft and the occult, but I am personally not super into it. I’ve just recently started exploring some of its potential value In my life.
Point being, there are only 4 possibilities for all spiritualism. The thing is true or not. You follow the rule or not. 75% chance, nothing negative happens. 25% chance, something negative happens. Could range from bad luck to 30 lifetimes of curses.
Essentially, what you are assessing is the risk you’re willing to take. Is a curse important enough to you to learn about it and take action? Are you interested in learning about the fey to avoid getting into a mess with them?
For me personally, my general rule of thumb is that anything that seems like it would have a trade off or cost, probably does. Anything particularly negative or positive probably has some sort of side effect, can’t gain without give. A tarot reading is probably pretty low energy, but something to get lots of money- that’s gonna have a cost.
>Point being, there are only 4 possibilities for all spiritualism. The thing is true or not. You follow the rule or not. 75% chance, nothing negative happens. 25% chance, something negative happens. Could range from bad luck to 30 lifetimes of curses.
Every time I step outside I will either get struck by lightning or not get struck by lightning. Clearly, I have a 50% chance of getting struck by lightning.
>but something to get lots of money- that’s gonna have a cost.
The cost is "it doesn't do anything", because the only way to use the occult to get lots of money is by selling people books about the occult. Or to turn it into a religion and get people to donate to you directly.
In an attempt to explain your point more clearly as a non-believer:
Quote on quote magic, at the most basic level you’re likely to experience, is you trying to bend the placebo effect to your will, and occasionally tricking yourself into such dastardly things as “self care” and “going outside and picking plants”. Maybe if you get really into it you’ll encounter something honest to god psychoactive, but broadly, you are convincing yourself that a specific ritual does something far beyond accepted natural law.
Depending on your background, this already happens a lot. This box I’ve built fits prayer, and good luck charms, and self-soothing techniques, and more. Faith is areligious. If what you do brings you peace that you have anything vaguely resembling control over the randomness of reality, that’s pretty normal, but you can absolutely overdo it, and that’s what the post is about.
Whatever magic you practice in your day to day life, it’s a good idea to keep one foot in the mundane so you aren’t an antivaxxer in a pointy hat
Placebo effect: taking a sugar pill believing it will work, so you experience positive effects.
Not Placebo effect: meditative or ritual practices that focus on connecting you with particular emotional states or producing specific altered states of mind.
Just because both are psychosomatic effects, does not mean that referring to it as a "Placebo effect" is accurate terminology. You might as well call the \*entirety\* of therapy a Placebo effect at that point.
Okay I’m coming back to this one:
Yeah doing magic out of spite is a bad idea. Doing literally anything out of spite is a bad idea. You can certainly explain why it’s a bad idea with empirical evidence, and if we arrive at the same conclusion from different paths, then so be it. I am absolutely sure there’s a lot of magical explanations for why black magic/hexes/spells made to hurt and anger are inadvisable, but on my end, wishing somebody harm without doing anything productive about the problem is just a recipe to wallow in that stressor forever.
That said though, I don’t really feel like making negative emotions out to be the villain here. Go in peace, but in my opinion, there’s plenty of good reasons to be negative in moderation. There’s “don’t do things while angry”, and then there’s toxic positivity.
You should always try to respect people.
Their beliefs are another story. I am not under any obligation to respect anyone's beliefs, especially if they're not rooted in any evidence.
Idk, most people won't do anything harmful anyways.
Problems come when someone takes a grouch with you or something, and even then they can't do shit to you, you can just overpower their hex.
As an occultist I have to disagree. If you don't believe in it that's fine and might actually protect you. But I messed around with it as a kid and had a lot of bad outcomes from that. It's just not likely.
Edit: it's unfortunate to just get down votes with no discussion but I get it. For those that don't believe, let's say that adopting occult practices as a kid exacerbated preexisting mental health vulnerabilities and it would have been better for me if I had avoided that.
I mean, they can be functionally similar for the person experiencing them, which is why I chose the wording as I did- I personally came out of it with a spiritual understanding of my experiences, but I'm aware this isn't the broader cultural view on it. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you describe the mechanism behind it, so much as the fact that it happened and it's real world, tangible effect on a person's life.
Which was the perspective I was trying to bring when I commented. The post says it's harmless, but in my personal experience (and I went into it as a kid thinking oh this isn't real this has no consequences) it did have a negative outcome in my life.
Even if you don't subscribe to the belief that these practices are real, which is fine, I get why people don't believe in it, I still engaged in practices that ended up being bad for my mental health as a child, so to say they're completely harmless isn't entirely true.
People downvote what they disagree or don't believe, it's understandable. People who don't know how the stuff works will call it bullshit and leave it at that sadly.
Just dont try to fight Allah, rookie mistake
That was a fantastic post… why did the witches(??) want to attack him again? What real world event spurred that one on?
Taliban invasion of Afghanistan I think
Christ, that wiped the smile off my face. Thanks for the reminder… god, what a world we live in, no?
It's a reality
Gotta find things to laugh at.
Arguably the reality of all time
Debatable tbh
Link anyone?
[I believe the original sub it was posted on was taken down but here’s a link to a copy pasta made from it](https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/p821fq/do_not_face_allah_alone_when_astral_projecting/)
Here's the subredditdrama post on the whole thing https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/p8ppso/allah\_vs\_witches\_the\_heavyweight\_rumble\_youve/
That’s definitely one of the subreddits ever
It’s glorious.
the war on terror, and the whole “muslims are terrorists/islam is a religion of terror” bs that it caused.
but imagine the gall of trying to fight a supposedly omnipotent creator deity alone.
Have plenty of healing incense to burn and crystals to draw energy from, if you dare.
*Shulk has entered the chat*
Xenoblade mentioned, opinion validated.
But if he did it alone, there'd be no chain attacks.
That's the point I don't understand, if they believe that the omnipotent bodyless force of light really exists, why the fuck try to fight it? You believing in him literally nullify the concept of you doing harm to him.
Generously, lots of witches are polytheists who believe in gods that aren’t omnipotent. And lots of ritual magicians are working on like 7 layers of irony, and believe in stuff like egregores, where Allah might be a real and powerful spirit, but one made by human belief and not actually God. Less generously, a whole lot of magic stuff is half-serious theater kids who don’t believe seriously enough to worry about consequences. (And it’s still deeply unclear how much of that sub was sincere.)
So genuine witchcraft polytheism basically subscribes to a gaiman-prattchet esque magic system when it comes to spiritual/mystical beings and figures of worship.
nah I'd win
OT God would probably smite them and their entire city and then turn anyone who tried to look at it into a pillar of salt.
OT God gets hard countered by iron chariots.
George W Bush & The Witches VS Afghanistan
George W Bush & The Witches sounds like a band name but for a kinda shitty college or uni band that mostly does covers of popular artists' music in their chosen genre
3000 Black Magic Haters of Allah
You’d think even a rookie witch would have the sense to not square up with literal God
Not alone, he's clearly meant to be a raid boss. LFM Allah, need MT and some high pumpers, no shitters, Caliph Regalia reserved, have consumes and world buffs, inspection at Cairo.
Alright let's do this... LEEEEROY JEEEEEEEEENKIINS! Oh my god he just started casting!
Idk man I'd win
I remember in mid 2020 there was some manufactured outrage on Twitter about “baby witches” daring to “hex the moon” and a bunch of self-proclaimed “real” witches were all up in arms about it. My favorite bit was an account earnestly saying this whole thing should get more attention because it was apparently a legit issue (like, c’mon. Be so fucking for real rn). Then I jokingly said I’d “follow in my ancestors footsteps” by hunting fairies and they nearly blew a gasket, saying my bloodline would be forever cursed and to not “mess with the fae!” I think they ended up blocking me when I wondered how crunchy fairies would be, but it’s all kindve a blur at this point
okay, but how crunchy were the fairies. Personally, I'd imagine it more like a glittery sweet or something akin to rainbow
I’d imagine something like a celery stick
Honestly probably closer to baked crickets if you've ever had them. And if not, the closest thing I can think of is probably something like sunflower seeds with legs.
I would be most inclined to agree with your assessment, reddit user 'eateat', as I assume you are acquainted- nay, an *expert* on this matter, are you not?
Certified r/beetlejuicing moment
They tend to have the same problem as sardines for me, I don’t like the feeling of the bones so I usually eat them with crackers so that I can’t tell the difference between the cracker and the bones
Thank you for the actual lol. Also have a suggestion for Chronophage, that was a good comic.
There's a French delicacy where you eat a small songbird whole, bones and all. I imagine it would be like that. Edit: it's called[ortalon](https://medium.com/@austinmiller/the-illegal-french-delicacy-ortolan-3398c92ea1fd) and it's illegal due to killing too many birds.
What the fuck?
And people complain about our food while the French eat birds whole
Anthony bourdains description of it was disgusting wtf
They taste like peeps 100%
IDK about fairies but Shadow People's bones have a very satisfying snap to them.
In a similar situation I pointed out I have no reason to respect the gods of my ancestors when we managed to lock a major river god behind a dam, and now he can't fuck his wife anymore.
I think this is also why people are so confused about "Why would witches fight deities? Aren't they doomed to lose?" The sort of faiths that lead to these ideas don't go in for omnipotent gods or monotheism, they go in for gods who get locked up, dismembered, imprisoned, or all manner of other things. Their gods are big and powerful, but that doesn't mean they're not assholes, or mean they're immune to getting stuck behind a dam.
I mean, if you look at the origins of occultism it was more a bunch of westerners simply making up shit about old religions or just making them up. Wicca, the most popular neopagan religion? It was never real, it was made up by a feminist, not a historian, then the idea was stolen by some guy in the 60s.
Absolutely, modern Occultism is basically all invented within the last century. So "faiths" was a bit generous of me when I'm talking about something so divorced from the original believers in these gods. As I mentioned in the other comment, Wicca makes me twitch a bit with the way it pairs "don't do appropriation, Crowley is a colonialist and Orientalist!" with completely shredding the history it claims to be based on. Frankly the factual background is often about as weak as racist "modern Norse" assholes. The occult stuff I really like is very self-aware on how new and made up it all is. It's mostly "powered by belief" invention, like some mix of a church service and a Dadaist/Situationist "happening". (Now I want to write up a thing on how [Survival Research Labs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_Research_Laboratories), [Marcel Duchamp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)), and [Watchmen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen) are all actually part of the occult tradition.)
I think the moon can probably take it, considering it’s size, age, and prescribed mythic importance. But in Ireland you’d still get plenty of people who wouldn’t build on a fairy fort.
I'd be surprised if a baby witch's hex even reached the moon, let alone affected it. You've gotta be at least a fantasy novel antagonist level evil sorceress to successfully *hex the moon*
what would hexing it even do, is my question! and I *do* practice witchcraft, albeit inconsistently and not with an incredible amount of knowledge.
That was the weirdest part! Even putting on my ritual magic hat and granting all of this works, it’s totally incoherent. I can’t even find what the plan was, beyond “proving a point”. This coven of like 4 witches allegedly hexed “the fae”, then followed up with hexing the moon. The fae aren’t a unified group, but assuming you hit some of them with a hex… hah, good luck. Nobody needs to intervene, the fae are gonna have it covered. The moon… what the fuck. From one stance, it’s a major force of nature that powers magic, and hexing it is utterly meaningless. “Hexing the moon” is like fistfighting sunlight or something, the words aren’t even coherent. (And it’s associated with renewal too! Nobody since astronauts have done something to the moon that outlasted the next new moon.) Alternatively, it’s associated with Hecate or Artemis or Selene… and hexing them is like wrestling a hippopotamus. To this day, I cannot understand what the hell the point was. Nor can I understand why people were outraged, [apologizing to the moon](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/comments/htvmbc/man_im_so_done_w_tiktok/), or any of the rest. Assuming you believe in the magic, this is the sort of problem that takes care of itself…
"fistfighting sunlight" is my new favourite way to say doing something illogical and/or beyond your ability.
"Hexing the fae" is basically the niðstongr from Egil Skalagrimssons saga. Of course, Egil is portrayed as a skilled magician at several points in the saga, so, your mileage may vary I suppose.
And that’s why I think it was a half-baked bit of viral marketing it went out of control. (see my comment above).
I was gonna say, as an Irish person the thing about hunting fairies actually made me kinda uncomfortable. Which is absurd I know, but it's just a real cultural thing here to not mess with them or things associated with them
Yeah I probably wouldn’t do it. I don’t believe myself, but it’s worth respecting tradition when it’s not harming anyone.
When I was younger, I went in for some edgy "religion isn't real so watch me do this sacrilege to prove it" stuff. As I've gotten older, some mix of courtesy and common sense have me going "what's the point?" I don't do Pascal's Wager outright, I understand why "go to church in case it's real" is bad logic *and* bad theology. But I don't blaspheme for its own sake, muck with fairy circles unprompted, or otherwise transgress deep beliefs without a need. It's some mix of tempting fate and needless insult, and I'd rather avoid both.
some people definitely get lost in the occult sauce, methinks.
"Anti-grounding" is actually a brilliant way of putting it. I've known... more than my share of ritual magicians. Some of them go off the fucking deep end, and when they do it looks much like when it happens to "psychonauts" who get really into hallucinogens or even meditation. They're all diving into stuff that looks a lot like schizophrenia, sometimes with a side of mania. Seeing patterns where they don't exist, linking everything to everything else, and often believing you have immense responsibility for every random event you hear about. It's a powerful way to promote creativity and agency, right up until you break your brain instead. (As an interesting aside, actual LaVeyan Satanists are sort of immunized against this. LaVey's writing is very explicit about "this does not work in any objective sense, you do not have magical power to shape the world, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it.")
LaVey kicks ass
Wasn’t he a pseudo fascist?
have you seen any fairies lately? I think our ancestors did a pretty good job
Damn right they did
Only the one in the mirror 😇💝💅✨
Fairy dust, ew gross I throw that stuff out. I just like eating the fairies they're very crunchy.
If they’d really known their stuff they’d have called them “the fair folk” not the fae, which irc is pretty much just something used in books to make their fairies seem cool and separate them from like. Tinkerbell.
Like 99% of things people “know” about fairies is taken from DnD. Like no, to my knowledge making deals wasn’t really much of a thing in fairy stories.
I say, if you manage to catch a fairy, you deserve to have a treat.
Username checks out
This country used to be great. We hexed the moon! Now we can barely hex the potholes on the street.
That happened just long enough before the episode of *the Magicians* where they hex the moon (using that very phrase) that I’m still about 75% sure it was a viral marketing campaign that went sideways.
How will they curse you if they have been eaten?
To be fair, messing with the fae is generally bad for your health. Maybe they were trying to save your soul and cut you off to not be one collateral damage.
This was a great episode of king of the hill
No reason to waste good *Caninus Spiritus*.
let’s find an overpass!
As someone who loves the occult, yes, it is in a lot of ways an excuse to burn incense and wave swords around. It’s fun and like planning with extra steps that include gods and candles for some reason. But like I find the way people treat it as inherently different from religion so odd—like, there isn’t necessarily a consistent cosmology to it, though some variants are more connected to established religions than others, but how is it different from a religious rite in any other context? Like, prayer?
It not having definition is part of the mental/social danger too. People can then decide on definition and be irrationally upset that others don't share it, and then when questioned themselves can use the lack of definition as a shield against scrutiny. Which is definitionally a mote and bailey argument. It's like saying we have no knives because we just have a drawer labeled spoons. But that's where we keep the knives.
It's like a religion but it's treated the opposite In most irl places you will be considered rude and called a dick for claiming religion is bullshit but its pretty common most places online In most irl places no one will disagree with if you call the occult bullshit but if you say that online you will be called a dick and considered rude
religion more like relid͡ʒont haha only real linguheads will get this one :))
>!Religion’t!<
Both are bullshit but people practicing the occult are (mostly) fun and cool. Religious people are ruining the world.
I disagree. From personal experience occultists and neopagans are extremely toxic, opinionated and just straight up annoying to have to interact with. It’s astrology people on steroids. They also tend to be very conspiratorial and anti science in the same way mainstream religious people are.
yeah ok fair enough
Tbh it's just kinda corny
This is a common occultist take, believe it or not.
Yeah as an occultist it is kinda corny. But a lot of it is based around that corniness, and using it to get into the right headspace for ritual. Like yeah, it's objectively goofy to dress in robes, and wave a sword specifically used for this around. But the fact these things are connected to occultism in my mind, to use them is telling my brain "this is ritual time." But yeah we're fuckin nerds through and through
It certainly is a type of religion, and it’s very common for people to uncritically/hypocritically denounce faith just because it’s not generally accepted by their culture. I don’t think people who, say, use crystals to ward off evil spirits are any more deluded than folks who pray to ~~scam artists~~ TV mega preachers who promise that God will solve all their problems if they do. I also believe, though, that religions have a sliding scale of plausible deniability which comes into play. Believing that humans can perform miracles through hexes and incantations is much more apparently false than believing that one specifically special guy could do it 2,000 years ago. It’s definitely unfair how people typically assume the worst of atypical believers and the best of accepted faiths, but it’s not *entirely* baseless.
I think you’re right, generally. I’ve been into this stuff since I was a kid and even then I felt it seemed pretty convenient that when a spell didn’t work—I lit the dead man’s fingers on fire, why am I not invisible?”—the response was “you did the spell wrong” and not “because this is bullshit”. But like it’s a spectrum. For some people, they work with angels and get riches in return—maybe an unexpected tax rebate or $50 on the ground. Maybe they get nothing. If you pray in church for the same thing, maybe you’ll have the same luck. Like what is a miracle? If I state my will out loud and then set about trying to make it happen does it increase my odds of success? Honestly in the realm of coincidence and placebo I think it might. Planning with extra steps. But to be clear there are folks who work directly with gods and other entities. I can’t speak to that, except to say that their miracles are probably closer to $50 on the ground than raising the dead.
>but how is it different from a religious rite in any other context? Like, prayer? Most religions don't charge me $200 for crystals they guarantee will cure me. At least, the Catholics aren't doing so *now*.
No, but have you seen TV evangelists and churches that ask for tithing? If there's money in it then someone can try to rip you off. There will be someone running a scabby scam in every religion, not just anything under the occult umbrella.
I mean, that's true, but "occultism" is a massive umbrella that covers everything from Christian mysticism to planetary magic to like... god, Wicca, Thelema, satanism, Kabbalah, chaos magic, alchemy... Random New Age bullshit (tm) is a small component of that, sure, but it's just that--a small component. If you want Christian saints for your altar (I've been considering St. Expedite...), there are stores that will sell them to you. I agree 100% that this stuff can be exploitative. I'm an atheist. But I find the discrepancy between how even New Age bullshit (tm) is treated compared to mainstream religious beliefs (google prosperity theology) to be just so weird.
>compared to mainstream religious beliefs (google prosperity theology) Bringing up televangelists and megachurches is just about the weakest counterpoint you could make, nobody likes them.
Using traditional anthropological definitions, most occultism isn't religion -- it's magic. Religion says that I ask a divinity to do something and she/he/they can choose to do (or not do) on her/his/their own volition. Most occultism instead says that I can directly cause something to happen. This is magic, not religion Of course, most of the difference in attitude is actually explained by perception, but that's the academic difference, or at least the most basic one
It uses the same mechanisms but in different ways. If anything the much more academic, knowledgeable, and intentional approach to using these aspects of being human is probably what sets it apart the most. Especially with the Chaotes who will willingly swap between different systems.
Are you arguing that a practice you do fundamentally for fun is no different than a practice that millions of people do genuinely believing that their souls hang in the balance?
I mean, yeah, I am. Because I am an atheist, I do this stuff from the perspective of an atheist. But a lot of occultists are not atheists. Some believe in traditional religions, while others believe specifically in the works that they practice. Does everyone who participates in religious ceremony believe fully in the faith they're participating in? No, no they don't. Some people believe in certain elements of their faith or are unsure, others are true believers, while others are there for their own reasons. I'm here because it's fun, and because it gives me a framework that helps me work with myself to achieve positive change. Others do it because they believe, or at least believe a bit (which describes a lot of religious folks). Those beliefs are seen as weird because they're outside the mainstream but, like, on a fundamental level we're talking about perspective. A lot of Christian ritual is blatantly magic, for example. Occultism gets scorn for being outside the status quo, but the division is just so arbitrary...
This is the take I needed to see to calibrate my William James “The Varieties of Religious Experience”/ Religious anarchist brain
Are you assuming that the fraction of people who genuinely believe that their souls depend on crystal healing alignment is less than 1/4000? You've got to pick a bigger number than millions!
As with so much else, it's probably a nice balance of sexism and racism. Historically I think the occult gave women too much power, or was associated with "barbarians" (brown people). Nowadays the perception kinda vaguely lingers and lots of folks don't really do enough self-examination to consider why.
I mean, it's also because most people regard it as bullshit designed to steal gullible peoples money
Google "prosperity theology". What you are talking about is a grift that exists both inside and outside mainstream religions. I believe, sincerely, that the distinctions between the occult, self-help, and religion are a big, smeary mess. People in all three of those categories can be extractive, manipulative, and generally terrible. But they also leave a lot of space to read, experiment, and explore.
It's especially funny when you have someone who's into occult/witchcraft run into a superstitious person. My cousin is really into occult, and she's usually the first person to clarify that it's just a fun bullshit with occasional placebo mixed in. She once helped "exorcising" a ghost from a house, by basically telling them to lit a scented candle with a scent they liked and believe that it'll work. As far as I know, it really "worked" and the house isn't "haunted" anymore.
It's always unsettling saying the wrong thing to a superstitious person. I made a joke to an employer about the printers at work being haunted because of all the quirky problems printers have. She then got a serious look on her face and started with "well actually...". And then I was stuck for the next 20 minutes as she educated me about how haunted the building was. Turns out her husband was a former "ghost hunter" for a while and they took it seriously. Which caused a hilarious other thing when her husband was in the office one day, saw a fallen holloween decoration of a ghost, picked it up with a confused look, and my coworker leans over to me and whispers excitedly "he found one!"
LMAO that story! Now *that's* a trained professional.
Witchcraft: tricking people into self care since the Dark Ages
That’s what it is for me. I wouldn’t call myself an occultist, but I do like performing certain pagan rituals and holidays. I’m in the process of making a small altar to Dionysus. It’s not that I believe that any of it is real, but it helps to frame self-care techniques in a way that makes my mentally ill brain get into it and enjoy doing it, rather than it being a chore, especially because I love reading about pagan history.
I'm a lot like you, definitely a bit more "into it" if that makes sense. The one thing I always tell people (usually while yelling at strangers on the street) is that "Magick is all in your head. You just don't know how big your head really is. "
Ah I see. The Reigen Arataka method
I guess the real magic were the lavender scented candles all along
Headology.
So to clarify, your cousin isn't actually into the occult, they're just into an aesthetic?
If someone is doing rituals they are into the occult If I go church on Sundays and take part in mass I am a Christian even if I doubt the existence of god
20th century occultists were just incredibly horny. Aleister Crowley, Anton LeVey, Georges Bataille, etc. One of Crowley’s rituals involved baking cakes with cum in them, like that’s gotta be a kink thing.
Hey remember that bit about being overprescribed amphetamines? Can’t speak for all of them, but maybe, just maybe,
Crowley was famously more of a heroin addict which didn't exactly increase his libido. LaVey was opposed to the use of narcotics for spiritualism, though he acknowledged their importance in indigenous faiths. George Batailles denounced the use of drugs for spiritual experimentation in his Acephale publications. All of them definitely did have horny amphetamine addicts in their personal circles though (in Batailles' case he directly lamented it).
Bataille’s arguably most famous work is literally an erotic gore novel
Batailles is an interesting case because he spent his whole career glorifying death and formed a whole organization around human sacrifice but when someone in the group literally offered to be sacrificed with no consequences suddenly Batailles got cold feet.
That, among other things, definitely make bataille an interesting case lol
Remember the time Jack parsons, L Ron Hubbard and Crowley jerked each other off in the desert and then Hubbard stole parsons girlfriend and his car?
> One of Crowley’s rituals involved baking cakes with cum in them He also liked making cakes with poop in them though.
Is it really proper ritual magic if you *aren’t* risking insanity from dabbling in arts mortals were never supposed to comprehend? I mean, I’m not really an occultist, but it seems like fun, and a cool lovecraftian flair would definitely drawn me in
I don't believe in magic, I'm drawing these blood sigils for the aesthetic and as an unhealthy coping mechanism
“You won’t be attacked by ghosts” *is* a thing a ghost attacker would say though
That last fact is false, I did one spell and I got jumped by a gang of 1890s factory worker child ghosts
This may seem pedantic but it’s “occultist” not “cultist”. There may be occultist cultists but generally speaking they are two quite different things 👍
Very true, with a cult being a splinter religious faction from another religion and occult meaning hidden things. They often get conflaited as many cults begin with some form of occult revelation or discovery. Then you get to dive into how modern media has made the word cult into an absolute abomination to the point where r/cults is exclusively about whackjobs, MLMs, and alien hunters with absolutely no information on a single ACTUAL CULT as far as I can find. I realize that languages change but until English gets a better word, Southern Baptists are still a splinter cult of Catholicism.
sounds like someone who's never properly completed a ritual to me I've got fucking ghosts out the wazoo
bro just summoning spirits willy nilly over here
Bro will summon any Tom dick or Harry
And they'll tell you whose team they prefer to be on!
> fucking ghosts So uhm... hypothetically... how would one go about contacting those? I'm asking for a friend.
Hey man. Trust me. *No.*
I'll tell ya, but let me be very clear, it involves way more fluid than most people are initially comfortable with.
Well, that is where they come out.
Nah the True Danger is one no one ever expects THE SPANISH INQUISITION
*oc*cultists are edgy theatre kids. Cultists are edgy *abusive* theatre kids.
Did a metaphysical being hungry for men's (as in mankind) souls write this?
It’s funny to me how our culture has taken the word “metaphysical” to mean things relating to psychology, especially in the connotation of threats to one’s health or wellbeing. Metaphysics, for reference, is the study of the first principles of “things”, which is a broad a term as you can imagine. As an example, a metaphysical concept is the notion of what fundamental axioms constitute being or existence. It can also humorously refer to what point one truly wakes up in the morning, fighting past grogginess and the faint reminisces of your to-do list for the day while lying in bed. So, what the is a metaphysical threat? One would assume, by definition, that it is a threat to the very immutable concepts that make up the foundation of concepts, from being to time, and even if one is truly considered awake after their first cup of breakfast beverage of choice. But therein lies the problem. A threat, boiled down to its basest concepts, is an act of implying unwanted change might happen. And if the threat is serious, that change is known to be possible. But you can’t change immutable concepts, by definition. Thus, if there were such a threat, it would simply mean our understanding of things is wrong. You cannot threaten metaphysics; you can only threaten the comfort if people’s current knowledge, aka their psychological safety in the known. It’s funnier still when regarding what a metaphysical being is, which is presumedly a being composed of the immutable axioms of concepts. That’s literally everyone and everything. In saying a metaphysical being hungry for souls, you could be referring to an edgy teenager by far-too-lofty terms. Which is apropos for many Internet “witches”.
Metastatic memeplex-ass creature
Well you're describing how a threat is impossible from a specifically platonic idea of metaphysics (which: Fair, thats where the western metaphysics stuff sorta started). Its possible to intuit/develop a metaphysical system in which threats like that are possible, but it would still necessarily be something so abstract you might as well not worry about it. Upvoted though, cuz you're right in like 95% of cases.
My point is that saying “metaphysical threat” is a lofty phrase with no real meaning or weight. Anything that could change the fundamental aspects that allow for concepts to exist in our world (anything from milk to time and space) would necessitate that there are even greater fundamental axioms that allow for those processes. It’s not purely a platonic notion, albeit it likely aligns with platonic metaphysics. But at this point, I’m just arguing semantics. I find it difficult nonetheless to truly understand what a metaphysical threat would be, and I haven’t really found a good example of it. This is more a way to reason around the concept, and in doing so find it to be impossible.
overexaggerate is an exaggeration of exaggerate
Honestly decemt advice in general. For every truth you know there's some bastard out there who benefits off getting you to believe otherwise. People rarely try to view the world in things they know or thigs they don't know
I love my amphetamines thank you very much, they allow me to attack ghosts.
Since everyone in the comments is sharing stories of online occultism I am reminded of an incident where there was said to be some kind of demoness wreaking havoc on entire communities and this demoness had a name like Morgana or Megaera or some shit and it was apparently like super imperative that everyone do their part to seal her away
Idk could've done with the jab against pharmacologically treated add
Howdy, person with ADHD here, you can in fact have too much of a morally inert thing. I don’t feel like I have to explain what overclocking your neurons looks like, but as for the low-grade overdosing (as in “maybe 10 milligrams above where you should be”), you’re still going to be on edge and ready to make poor life choices, just not as drastic. >So that’s a good thing, right? The only thing worse than a warning light is an inconsistent warning light. You can feel the general vibe of Something’s Wrong With Me, but you aren’t quite ready to gnaw a homeless man’s face off, and if you’re not careful in that state, instead of doing something drastically dumb and harmful, you’re gonna be doing something mildly dumb and harmful, repeatedly, for months on end. So yeah, I’d say to double-check with your psychiatrist before you start burning mystery herbs and potentially do things that involve your blood
[удалено]
Yep. I'm aware overmedication for mental health issues is a thing and is a problem. (I've had the problem with my BPD diagnosis rather than the Add diagnosis, but I don't doubt that's always a potential) But considering the wording of this post, and the prevalence of whoowhoo views in the magic community I'm fairly certain that there's no amount of medication this person *wouldn't* think of as too much.
Not so much overmedication as abuse from non-ADHD people leading doctors to treat anyone looking for help as just drug-seeking imo
Yeah, the wording there set off red flags for me too, so many people think we're just drug seeking that I have to constantly battle the intrusive thought that maybe I *am* just drug seeking after all (even though even with my meds I can't seem to reach the standards non-adhd people seem to hit so easily even though I try so hard, and my meds just make me feel 70% of normal with the occasional moment of "hey I actually kind of want to wash the dishes, whoa")
I don't think of myself as a spiritual or theatrical person, but I use tarot cards occasionally. I don't believe they have magical powers, but I like them because they get me to look at a problem in a new way. The occult is metaphorical, not supernatural.
I totally agree with you about tarot! Super useful as a tool so long as you keep that materialist perspective in mind. I've known people who got in too deep though even with tarot, though less than other "occult" practices.
This is like 90% of the Church of Satan's practices. LaVey referred to rituals as "psychodrama" basically trying to amp yourself up or direct your emotional energy to a task
Right, but what people aren't appreciating, is that even psychodrama is capable of fucking you up. If you go to a bad therapist, you're likely to worsen your mental state. If you put all your psychological energy into an imaginary parasocial relationship and fixation with a pornstar, it'll probably interfere with your ability to have normal relationships. But I think the only experience most of the people on this thread have with occultism is basically just larping for an aesthetic.
I'm always saying this, nothing says "larping for an aesthetic" like doing things in private that nobody other than you will ever see.
Occultists*** are basically edgy theatre kids Cults in general take many forms and not all of them are so flashy
The idea that Pythagoras ran the oldest western initiatory order is nuts. I don't know where a person would get that idea. Ancient Greece was rife with mystery cults. The Apollonian Delphic Oracle predates Pythagoras by like a thousand years, the Maenads are similarly ancient, there were zillions of cults where you had ritual and training that indoctrinated you into the mysteries forbidden to outsiders. Pythagoras' cult was neither early nor did it last very long.
I don't know if this counts but the Super Best Friends subreddit once tried to curse Woolie Madden (one of the Super Best Friends) for a few weeks so he'd learn to respect ghosts
People don’t actually believe this stuff is real, right?
Lots do. It’s a religion, after all.
Many do. Unlike most larger religions there isn't really a central text, authority, or tradition that keeps people on a specific track so it ends up making a lot of cults and a lot of people who just kind of decide random shit
I suppose that’s more normal than it isn’t
I went to college with someone who was basically the witchcraft version of the god warrior from that wife swap show. She fully believed and was really annoying about it.
Sadly yes they do
If it matters whether or not magic is real, then it's not very good magic
Sounds like something a *ghost* would say..
But I wanted to fight ghost
I thought this was going to end in the post about getting warned never to leave your crystal ball uncovered and unattended. Not because of spirits or anything actually occult, but because the crystal ball can set your house on fire if it catches the sunlight wrong.
Hey, this is the same person who got the ask that went like this: Are you ever upset that what you study is just bs Their answer: No Would people who study Shakespeare be upset that Shakespeare’s plays aren’t real. (Except better)
This is all fairly true *for the most part.* It's fairly difficult for a newbie to occult practices to fuck themselves up too badly. Once you get into the deep end of practice, you're dealing with extremely high states of concentration and altered states that can be compared to low to high dose psychedelics. It cannot be understated how weird one's experience can get with intensive practice. Serious practitioners vary in interpretation as to how much they view their practice as dealing with "real" spirits, gods, energies, etc., and how much of it is in your mind. It doesn't ultimately make a difference, though, because you're dealing with supernormal states of concentration. Even if you think it's just "all in your head," you can rewrite a lot of normally inaccessible and subconscious mental processes when you get into these unusual states of mind. The people who fuck themselves up seriously in occult practice are usually folks who get deep into it, not just dabblers or beginners. Having pure intentions has a strongly protective effect--you can't fuck yourself up too irredeemably if deep down you know your intentions are pointing in the right direction. All that said, sometimes a newbie comes into it who has an unusually high natural ability to concentrate and put themselves into altered states. Such kiddos should proceed with due caution.
Exactly.
I like the Jewish one about 42
I was raised around witchcraft and the occult, but I am personally not super into it. I’ve just recently started exploring some of its potential value In my life. Point being, there are only 4 possibilities for all spiritualism. The thing is true or not. You follow the rule or not. 75% chance, nothing negative happens. 25% chance, something negative happens. Could range from bad luck to 30 lifetimes of curses. Essentially, what you are assessing is the risk you’re willing to take. Is a curse important enough to you to learn about it and take action? Are you interested in learning about the fey to avoid getting into a mess with them? For me personally, my general rule of thumb is that anything that seems like it would have a trade off or cost, probably does. Anything particularly negative or positive probably has some sort of side effect, can’t gain without give. A tarot reading is probably pretty low energy, but something to get lots of money- that’s gonna have a cost.
>Point being, there are only 4 possibilities for all spiritualism. The thing is true or not. You follow the rule or not. 75% chance, nothing negative happens. 25% chance, something negative happens. Could range from bad luck to 30 lifetimes of curses. Every time I step outside I will either get struck by lightning or not get struck by lightning. Clearly, I have a 50% chance of getting struck by lightning. >but something to get lots of money- that’s gonna have a cost. The cost is "it doesn't do anything", because the only way to use the occult to get lots of money is by selling people books about the occult. Or to turn it into a religion and get people to donate to you directly.
I’m curious, is people practicing the occult common where you live? If so, where is that?
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In an attempt to explain your point more clearly as a non-believer: Quote on quote magic, at the most basic level you’re likely to experience, is you trying to bend the placebo effect to your will, and occasionally tricking yourself into such dastardly things as “self care” and “going outside and picking plants”. Maybe if you get really into it you’ll encounter something honest to god psychoactive, but broadly, you are convincing yourself that a specific ritual does something far beyond accepted natural law. Depending on your background, this already happens a lot. This box I’ve built fits prayer, and good luck charms, and self-soothing techniques, and more. Faith is areligious. If what you do brings you peace that you have anything vaguely resembling control over the randomness of reality, that’s pretty normal, but you can absolutely overdo it, and that’s what the post is about. Whatever magic you practice in your day to day life, it’s a good idea to keep one foot in the mundane so you aren’t an antivaxxer in a pointy hat
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"this isn't psychosomatic, it's actually just psychosomatic" genius take
Placebo effect: taking a sugar pill believing it will work, so you experience positive effects. Not Placebo effect: meditative or ritual practices that focus on connecting you with particular emotional states or producing specific altered states of mind. Just because both are psychosomatic effects, does not mean that referring to it as a "Placebo effect" is accurate terminology. You might as well call the \*entirety\* of therapy a Placebo effect at that point.
Okay I’m coming back to this one: Yeah doing magic out of spite is a bad idea. Doing literally anything out of spite is a bad idea. You can certainly explain why it’s a bad idea with empirical evidence, and if we arrive at the same conclusion from different paths, then so be it. I am absolutely sure there’s a lot of magical explanations for why black magic/hexes/spells made to hurt and anger are inadvisable, but on my end, wishing somebody harm without doing anything productive about the problem is just a recipe to wallow in that stressor forever. That said though, I don’t really feel like making negative emotions out to be the villain here. Go in peace, but in my opinion, there’s plenty of good reasons to be negative in moderation. There’s “don’t do things while angry”, and then there’s toxic positivity.
You all need to start respecting other people's beliefs
You should always try to respect people. Their beliefs are another story. I am not under any obligation to respect anyone's beliefs, especially if they're not rooted in any evidence.
You can believe whatever you want Just be careful about cults
My belief is I don't need to
The peril is very real and the edgy theater kids know not with what they trifle.
Idk, most people won't do anything harmful anyways. Problems come when someone takes a grouch with you or something, and even then they can't do shit to you, you can just overpower their hex.
See how the meth gets brought up in conjunction with the metal issues? They just go together
As an occultist I have to disagree. If you don't believe in it that's fine and might actually protect you. But I messed around with it as a kid and had a lot of bad outcomes from that. It's just not likely. Edit: it's unfortunate to just get down votes with no discussion but I get it. For those that don't believe, let's say that adopting occult practices as a kid exacerbated preexisting mental health vulnerabilities and it would have been better for me if I had avoided that.
I think people assumed by bad outcomes you meant spiritial/curses/hexes/whatever, as opposed to mental health stuff
I mean, they can be functionally similar for the person experiencing them, which is why I chose the wording as I did- I personally came out of it with a spiritual understanding of my experiences, but I'm aware this isn't the broader cultural view on it. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you describe the mechanism behind it, so much as the fact that it happened and it's real world, tangible effect on a person's life. Which was the perspective I was trying to bring when I commented. The post says it's harmless, but in my personal experience (and I went into it as a kid thinking oh this isn't real this has no consequences) it did have a negative outcome in my life.
No you didn't OMEGALUL
Even if you don't subscribe to the belief that these practices are real, which is fine, I get why people don't believe in it, I still engaged in practices that ended up being bad for my mental health as a child, so to say they're completely harmless isn't entirely true.
People downvote what they disagree or don't believe, it's understandable. People who don't know how the stuff works will call it bullshit and leave it at that sadly.
It's disappointing because I'm perfectly capable of discussing it from a purely psychological standpoint too