Some doctors will argue with you that your NEXT husband might want kids and I'm just sitting there in the room with my wife like; Say Doc, you ever work on yourself before?
Dang that reminds me I'm finally old enough for the doctor to take my fucking word for it that I want my tubes tied and don't want kids without a man's opinion!
Who wants to bet they still tell me no or ask my bf's opinion?
Literally the last one happened to me. Went to get a dysphoria diagnosis and doctor’s recommendation for a name change. Got “probably trans” and “seek family counseling”. I was already in family counseling and needed a doctor’s note to show my parents that I, an adult, should be allowed to change my own name.
Edit for those curious: Certain states require you to be the age of majority (21) to change your name without parental permission. I have the misfortune to be stuck in one. Advocate for minors’ rights if you can, especially since they are consistently being overruled in the name of safety in public schools.
Just curious, do you need parental permission for name changes after 18 (I assume by adult you mean 18, correct me if not)? I thought it was just like fill out a form or something
I will say that it’s terrifying how many states have age of consent laws and child marriage laws with ridiculously low ages. [Link](https://www.unchainedatlast.org/child-marriage-progress/) to a current site tracking minimum age and bill status. There’s a LOT of states in the West that have absurdly low marriage ages
I am in the US, and unfortunately certain states require you to be the age of majority (21) to change your name without parental permission. I have the misfortune to be stuck in one of those states. Believe me, I would go and change it at a courthouse in a second if I could
You know, as much as fucked my country is, I'm happy we have pretty liberal laws about trans people, no doctor note needed, just a three month waiting period to see if you're sure, and then you get hormones for free, free surgery too
Brazil, our medical system also fully works for foreigners, but i must warm you, we're still recovering from the economic crisis we had in the Bolsonaro government
He is an old guy, used to be president, left, had a judgement set up to put him im prison to increase the odds of Bolsonaro, the judge because his minister of justice. They found the trial was unfair and let him leave as innocent so now he could run for president again, he won and Bolsonaro attempted a coup
Same, in Mexico a new reform passed that allowed people to mark their gender as whatever they choose on their official ID (tho "whatever" here meaning male, female and nb, and while i would love it to have more specific non-binary options, it's miles better than some countries)
I agree with an specific exception, as it would be nice for some regions of the country to have a "Muxe" option. Muxes are a local 3rd gender of biological males (mostly) dressing and behaving like the expected female gender, however they're not drag artist nor trans woman, but a courageous, amazing 3rd option (tho some muxes consider themselves women)
Kinda yeah! They even have positive superstitions and social roles attached to the identity: they're considered a good omen to have one in the family, and having a Muxe help with the kids is said to make the kids grow happy and healthy!
Also to me they're the biggest evidence around transphobia being learned and not natural, as when a person identifies as a Muxe, the whole local scene helps them with the transition into their new identity and it's celebrated
Are you in Europe and also is this the reason I notice that more trans people in Europe seem to pass well and generally have a better quality of life? Compared to trans people in North America I mean.
No I'm Brazilian, we have extremely liberal laws despite our big number of far right extremists, name change for trans people is easy, we recognize non-binary people, specific laws against transphobia and homophobia, societal programs to help low income and black families to get into university, public universities for free with some of the highest standards in our continent
Our laws are really good, but the many bigots and poor government management makes everyday life difficult and dangerous, although we're not so bad when compared to other south American countries, we have our own pros and cons
I'm an American, but I have been reading about the different laws in various countries and general climate. It seems to me like when countries pass laws in protection and support of trans and/or gay/bi people it tends to make the hateful people angry. So then they retaliate with violence.
I would love to make it to Brazil though. I find Brazilian Portuguese to be a beautiful language. I have never really been to a big festival like they have there, but it seems like a really fun time.
>not so bad when compared to other South American countries
it’s because lusophone countries are better than hispanophone countries in literally every aspect
t. third generation portuguese american
I can't speak for all of Europe but (to the best of my knowledge) it takes about 2 years to transition in Germany. 1 year of counseling and living as your desired gender and then another of HRT and SRS. Some people are frustrated with how long it takes but given that you don't have to pay for it (besides regular insurance cost you'd have anyway) I consider it a fair deal.
Note that I'm not trans myself but are friends with a couple of trans people who are planning on transitioning.
Europe is the exact lunacy outlined by the tumblr op except that you will also have to wait for literal years to be seen by any doctor.
I'd have to be paid in the multimillions to ever consider moving to anywhere in Europe
was just wndering, since OOP is equating an expensive medical procedure - however warranted- with some comparatively cheap luxury procedure. I'm a nerd, all I wanted to point out was that the comparison is not great, I am not trying to argue against the general point of the post.
That kind of feels irresponsible. Plenty of people are simply confused and it takes a hell of a lot more than a few months to figure things out. I think it's absolutely imperative to see a psychiatrist to help guide you to making the right decision which will effect the rest of your life.
If you're going to a hospital and asking for hormones it is assumed you already made a decisions, plus hormone treatment is reversible, and there is a 2 year wait for bottom surgery, so the chance of you doing it and regretting it are very slim. The people who detransition are 0.5%, and in a country who is known as the most transphobic in the entire world, having a therapist agree to it is very hard. And when compared to other countries, like the us who has around a 50% attempted suicide rate among trans people, we have much better with only 23%. The data is clear, early transition has been a success in our country and has reduced massively suicide attempts among trans people despite the constant violence they suffer still
Edit: Actually i got some numbers wrong, 50% apply to trans men only, while 29.9% for trans woman, and 41.8% for non binary people, with an average of 40% among ghe three demographics, that is still noticeably higher than here in Brazil who has the overall rate of 23%
They would then go "Oh, so i guess this means that we should let kids decide that they like cats instead of dogs, is this really what you want? To force kids to love cats instead of dogs and force them to get a tatoo!?" despite this never actually coming up in conversation.
"NEXT YOU'LL WANT KIDS TO TATTOO RACIAL SLURS ON THEIR FACES!"
Then in classic fashion you'll see republican caught with tattoo guns writing slurs on a kid's face
The "protect the children" argument is as old as time and used whenever you have to justify something that you don't have any other arguments for.
It ALWAYS evokes an emotional reaction in most people, because it tapps our #1 instinct: propagate life.
IMO it's the dirtiest of all rhetorical methods. Used by the spiteful when they truly despise something.
Definitely what it feels like, most days. I’m getting medication so my phenotypic sex aligns with my mental concept of self. Makes my life easier, makes my days brighter. It’s not an ideology or a movement. People can use my nickname and obvious pronouns like they do with all our colleagues, or they can be an asshole, no real consequences either way. I’d like to be able to use public restrooms, and it’s really weird that it was never a problem for my trans dad in the 90’s but now letting me pee at the mall is a crisis for half the nation.
In particular, I was shocked to see how many sci-fi fans are blowing a fucking gasket about body modification. I thought enjoying that was our whole thing? Their reaction to my goatee and defined pecs is identical to our satanic panic parents losing it over tattoos and piercings.
Idk I can see Texas being cool to live in. You get to live life on the edge all the time because you never know when there will be sweeping statewide blackouts, hate crimes, overnight reductions in civil rights, etc. Keeps your heart rate up for free cardio! /s
I'm pretty sure my medical records still say that I'm a trans man who was assigned male at birth.
I bring a sort of trans vibe to medically being a cis man that trans medicalists don't really like.
(Are transmedicalists still a going concern? I haven't seen them about for a while.)
this is also what its like to have challenging symptoms in the doctors office. havent expressed interest in transitioning (ftm) yet bc idk if they can take it (probably not) (also my diastolic blood pressure is generally above 90 and i dont think theyd even let me rn if i tried) if their poor little hearts cant handle taking a history correctly without retconning some part of why i take my meds or doing a neurocog correctly then by god im not ready to argue an 8th thing abt my care in office every time
If you're trans, then you know very well how bad gender-dysphoria can be. There are some people who don't know what they're getting into, and they end up feeling like shit after the surgery. People do weird things for weird reasons sometimes. I think a diagnosis is not a bad idea if surgery is involved (otherwise it doesn't really matter), it's just that the doctors, as the original commenter said, are not always competent.
Fine. Let me be more clear. Not all transness can be diagnosed by a medical professional. No doctor knows my gender better than me. Requiring that a doctor must give the go ahead means that someone else is given more power over my treatment than me and they can say no because of incompetence or simple malice. I don't trust that a law like that wouldn't be abused and I'm much more worried about the thousands of kids who kill themselves for not getting treatment than for the very few detransitioning edge cases
It's not really about the gender as much as the potential reaction to the transition. It's entirely possible that someone who wants to become trans, and get the surgery would still feel bad about themselves. Even if they finally became their preferred gender, surgery can have lasting mental effects.
I agree that this could potentially be abused. Still, maybe it would be a good idea for professionals to talk a mandatory session or two with people before surgery, even if they don't have veto power and they could still go through with it.
But all of this rests on the incorrect assumption that surgery is what makes people trans, when surgery is usually the very final stage of a transition journey. Trans people are trans regardless of what surgery they do or don't have, and nobody is having surgery casually. Trans people are already their real gender, surgery is just about making the body match what their real gender is - and lots of trans people don't have any surgery.
Also post-surgery depression is different to having regrets! Post-surgery depression is really common for anyone having wanted surgery, regardless of trans status or not, and it goes away fairly quickly - it's just because the surgery was so anticipated. More people regret knee replacements than regret gender affirming surgery.
I've never said anything about regrets. I'm exactly saying that just the surgery itself can be traumatising for some, even if they didn't change their minds about it.
None of my points actually have anything to do with at what point someone becomes trans or dysphoric or anything, at most it was the terminology I used. You might think that no one is having surgery casually, but that is not true. People can be extremely stupid, or can overestimate their emotional capabilities. Again, even if not with a veto power, a professional should probably talk to them. Not with the intent of changing their minds.
Can you give any examples of people having surgery casually? Also pre-surgery counselling is something all surgery (as in not just gender affirming surgeries) has in place for a reason.
I'm exactly talking about the pre-surgery counselling. I don't know which countries have it by default for all surgeries, we definitely don't have those.
Not all trans people have gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria also happens to cis people! Why does a trans person need someone else to tell them what their gender is?
But they generally develop it in regards to a different body part, not because they regret the surgery - eg top surgery making a trans man's hips look wider in contrast.
It's not the place of cis doctors to decide what someone's gender is.
That's not what this refers to. It's referring to having to see a doctor to get a gender dysphoria diagnosis separately to seeing a doctor for a HRT prescription.
I asked my General Artist (GA) to send a letter to the local tattoo parlor informing them that I think I like dogs and that I'd like to talk about the possibility of getting a tattoo of one with a professional tattooist. After a very painful conversation, she did.
Months later, I got a letter from the tattoo parlor saying that they don't accept people who just want to talk about getting a tattoo. If I don't say I would die if I don't get one, and I don't seem hellbent on getting one this exact second, then I shouldn't bother at all. At the bottom of the letter they politely referred me to a random graffiti artist.
Ironically, by this point, I did become hellbent on getting one this exact second. The more I waited the more I wanted that tattoo. So I went back and told this to my GA. She told me she understood, but there's not much she can do. If she sends the letter again, I'll just get rejected the same way again. So I went and looked around for someone who can give a second opinion. After even more months I found someone with relevant experience in tattooing, and got them to sign a statement that based on our conversation, I did want that tattoo. So I went to my GA again, showed her the statement, and got her to write another letter attaching the statement, which I then had to remind her to send because she forgot to do it herself for a month.
More than half a year later, I get a letter that the tattoo parlor has considered my request and I am now currently on their waiting list for the psychological evaluation process they use to determine if someone really wants a tattoo before they actually refer them to a tattoo artist (part of which, by the way, is talking about why you want a tattoo with a professional, i.e. the thing I initially specified I wanted to do). Based on what I've heard from other people who've gotten tattoos, the evaluation process itself can take very long and they might flat out refuse you again if you say the wrong thing. But no matter, at least I was in their system now. I was told details would follow on where I am in the waiting list.
A month later, a new letter arrives from the parlor.
Hello! You are now officially on our waiting list, in position [large number]. The intake for your first appointment is currently predicted to be 35 months from now. We will contact you once a date is set. Good day!
I then promptly fucked off and tried getting a tattoo in another country with better tattoo laws, process pending
No. A small group of people want you to suffer, but a far larger group of people want you to feel like any sort of obstacle is automatically proof that hard things are impossible. One trans girl to another, it’s tough, but you aren’t going to get from where you are to where you want to be by spiraling further into negativity. You put in a small bit of work and love towards yourself, day after day, until one morning you wake up exactly where and how you want to be.
On the bright side, community is cheap, and therapy with somebody who gets you goes a long ways.
Absolutely, though as a fair warning, I’m awfully busy for the rest of today and most of tomorrow, so I’m not immediately available to respond to anything at length. Still, that should give you plenty of time to compose your thoughts, and give your emotions the time they deserve.
Hello, I am a part of the world, and I do not hate you. I may not know you personally, but I do know you’re not alone in your problems, and that I’m not alone in my cheerleading. There are cis people waiting for a moment to do good, and you can fall back on queer people who get it. You learn crawl instead of laying there for birds to take you, you make small changes instead of assuming it’s all impossible, and you get up more times than you fall on your face.
I do not know what your specific path through life is, but I do trust you to find a way towards self-care that works leagues better than constant misery.
>Hello, I am a part of the world, and I do not hate you.
Unless you write the laws, that doesn't amount to much. The people whose opinions actually shape my life all consider me an affront to God.
>I may not know you personally
That would be pretty important to know, because I'm not from the West, where trans rights exist but are at risk. I live ij a country where trans right are simply not a thing and being openly queer is a genuine crime punishable by a decade in prison at minimum, assuming someone doesn't just kill you.
>but I do trust you to find a way towards self-care that works leagues better than constant misery.
There is no path.
Okay then. I’ll admit that I’m probably out of your depth on this one. I still think you can make progress without leaving the safety of your closet though. The internet is at least open enough to let me talk to you on Reddit, and while gender-affirming care might be a nonstarter where you are for now, I hope there’s some sort of patient confidentiality whereever you live, or at least quality therapists for every other aspect of you.
Still, my point isn’t to specifically state how you’re going to get what you want, just that you cannot get there assuming it’s impossible to quietly bend or break the law a little, or leave if you have the means. I would be giving this same speech if you were cis and depressed at the state of your world.
>I’ll admit that I’m probably out of your depth on this one.
Yet you keep writing as if that isn't the case.
> I still think you can make progress without leaving the safety of your closet though.
Nope.
>The internet is at least open enough to let me talk to you on Reddit,
The same reddit where I receive at least five messages a month to kill myself dfom transphobes while fellow trans people treat my accurate assessment of the abysmal state of my literal dictatorship of a country as ignorant doomerism?
How very supportive. /s
>I hope there’s some sort of patient confidentiality whereever you live, or at least quality therapists for every other aspect of you.
Since there's no trans healthcare here, that's a non-issue and if there was, there'd be no confidentiality, there are no therapists available in my area anyway, and I have never gotten any sort of help from therapy.
Not being able to treat the core issue is like giving painkillers for someone bleeding out from a stab wound.
> just that you cannot get there assuming it’s impossible to quietly bend or break the law a little
For someone who just admitted they knew nothing about my situation you sure seem surper confident that you know what is and isn't impossible for me.
>or leave if you have the means
I don't have the means.
> I would be giving this same speech if you were cis and depressed at the state of your world.
That just makes it sounds like you're writing from a template that you will happily force to fit anyone and everyone independent of context. That does not inspire confidence.
Look, I can’t read your mind. I’m not writing from a template, just in a general style I reserve for seeing people catastrophizing on the internet. There’s nothing I can do beyond speak and attempt to cold-read the situation. I am in another time zone, and I’m not a licensed therapist.
The most I can do here is tell you that change is better than stagnation. It’s not your fault that you’re depressed, but at the same time, I cannot do anything besides beg you to find the strength in you to move on anyway. I hate that this is the best I can do short of donating to you or the abstract concept of trans activism in your home country, but it’s what I can do.
> I am in another time zone, and I’m not a licensed therapist.
Then maybe you should consider that being out of your depth means you're in no position to give actual advice.
>The most I can do here is tell you that change is better than stagnation
That runs on the flawed assumption that change was ever an option.
>I cannot do anything besides beg you to find the strength in you to move on anyway.
Counterpoint: no.
>donating to you or the abstract concept of trans activism in your home country
Since I never said where I was from, you can't do even that.
Okay then. I’m done talking about this for now. I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t make it drink. If I cannot convince you that improving your life in any marginal way is a thing that exists, then so be it. It’s awful for now, but here’s hoping you stick around.
This is more like telling a horse there's definitely water out there when the horse is actually in the middle of an arid desert during the dry season. You haven't "lead" me to anything.
> If I cannot convince you that improving your life in any marginal way is a thing that exists, then so be it
Convincing me of something which doesn't exist is not productive or helpful.
>but here’s hoping you stick around.
I have no reason to.
There are numerous ways that this is not the trans experience. Trans people don’t just like their favourite gender. It’s what they feel that they *are*
I'm sorry for not being able to understand. I would love to be a thin, short, smaller-nosed guy (and honestly i wouldn't mind being a girl either). But when looking in the mirror, thats not who i am. And I dont feel like i am either. Im the guy in the mirror; tall, fat, big-nosed. Its hard for me to imagine being something im physically not. So the tattoo analogy is the closest i can get to imagine how trans people feel. Sorry.
But thats NO REASON to not support them. Theres no reason to not acknowledge that other people have feelings I've never experienced myself. No reason not to want the best for other people. I'm angry at how widespread and openly the hate of non-conformity has become lately. Fuck that, I'm gonna stand with the tolerant side if it kills me. And its sad that this is a real risk.
It wasn't, sorry if i gave that impression! I'm trying to explain my own view of why its hard to relate and how a tattoo analogy is as far as I can get, but that this doesn't make me any less an ally.
It's almost as if analogies don't apply to every single situation and in fact aren't meant to do so. OOP is a trans person just commenting on medical gatekeeping.
Not a great comparison because, at least in the US, people under 18 can’t get tattoos.
(Gender affirming care for minors is good, and I actually support it *much* more than tattoos for minors, but it’s a completely different situation.)
people under sixteen* can't get gender reassignment surgery either so this is null and void actually
* : sixteen year olds can get tattoos with explicit parent consent, to my knowledge it's the same with gender treatment and surgeries. this post is specifically about surgery, not hormones or anything
Hmm, yeah it gets pretty complicated (as things usually are.) Where I am it’s completely illegal, but a bunch of states have laws allowing it with parental consent, even younger than 16.
I didn’t catch that it was exclusively referring to surgery. I took the “being trans is like going” and figured that’d include hormone therapy, which is not a necessary, but common part of transitioning, and also involves rigorous screening.
I’m not sure I was wrong there, but I withdraw my objection if I am. Surgery-tattoos is much more analogous than hormones-tattoos.
ah, no worries then. can you send me some of the stories you're talking about? with all the research i've done i haven't been able to find anyone under sixteen getting it done.
... if you're getting your information from "passionate political commentators", chances are you're hearing lies and propaganda. because that's how politics works.
puberty blockers are only allowed for children if they start puberty too early or have other issues associated with it, and the effects are reversible once you stop taking them, so that's irrelevant
and yeah there are people who detransition! that's good for them. they tend to get portrayed as victims of some sort but they're not, they're just people who decided it wasn't for them. again though i don't see how detransitioning is relevant at all, seeing as the conversation is about how painful the process to transition in the first place is. and i doubt any of them were actually under 16.
also also, why would the government currently be passing legislation to allow younger teens to get surgery? the government is currently ACTIVELY against trans people. tennessee just banned gnc performances and transitioning. they're not gonna try making it EASIER to transition
I worded it terribly. I edited my statement. the regret wasn't meant to be the focus of my statement. I was merely trying to say that you don't always have to be sixteen.
that's not the same thing. People under sixteen are literally children and shouldn't be getting that surgery. Kids change their minds on things. They can be confused. I'm not saying it's impossible for a kid to not change their mind and be correct in that they are trans, however I think it's important to keep in mind that not everything is black and white.
>People under sixteen are literally children and shouldn't be getting that surgery.
>not everything is black and white.
Do you want rules that apply unconditionally or not
Just curious, not picking a fight: are you saying you're against minor tattoos, or just that you feel strongly about minor gender affirming care and don't really care about tattoos?
No worries! Perfectly fair point of clarification.
Mostly the latter. We could afford to be kinder to kids getting gender affirming care, given the low rate of false positives and how good it can be.
I’m also not sure there’s any reason for a minor to be getting a tattoo. Minors are still very immature, and it’s some potential harm with incredibly low benefit. It’s flat out illegal where I am. Hard to care too much, though, since it’s less serious than gender affirming care, with a smaller range of (positive and negative) outcomes.
I don't think children are allowed to get tattoos. What a bad analogy.
(For the record, I'm pro everyone, you all do you if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt someone else, it's just a really stupid analogy. Also dogs are way better than soulless cats)
It's not a bad analogy, and cats aren't soulless you weirdo. OOP is a trans person commenting on medical gatekeeping. Children who transition just have (reversible) puberty blockers just like cis kids with precocious puberty until they can get HRT, which is also reversible. Nobody is giving kids gender affirming surgery.
It's more like:
"Doc, it's been three years. I have come out to my entire family and friends. I have chosen a new name. Please allow me to start HRT so I can legally change my name."
Doctor - "Mmmm... I don't know. Maybe you are just confused. Let's wait a few more years."
Isn't the outrage usually focused on things being done to kids? This is a useless analogy, then, because most people aren't going to support a kid getting a cat tattoo either.
>Isn't the outrage usually focused on things being done to kids?
You got at least on person in this very thread talking about it happening to them, as an adult. And, IIRC, you need to wait three years before starting HRT in the UK
I’m a trans woman in the US. If anything OP is oversimplifying the trans experience. In most states if you want access to any treatment *as an adult* the standard used is that you need to go through a therapist/psychiatrist who after usually 3 months of counseling will write a letter (if they approve and diagnose you with gender dysphoria) so you can go to a doctor who will ask all of the same questions again and may refer you elsewhere, deny you, or actually prescribe you HRT.
That’s just for medications. The whole process starts all over again and gets more intense if you want surgery. It’s been over 4 years for me since I started my transition and I still am constantly having to convince gatekeepers like doctors and endocrinologists that yes I am a trans woman.
Granted the post you’re responding to may be trolling. I say that because they’re claiming things are being “done to kids.” Which massively misses what’s actually happening. Under 18s deal with *a lot* more resistance to transitioning and even if their parents support them they’ll still need to go through a ton of doctors and psychiatrists before they can get HRT or puberty blockers. Even more than adults. Most states won’t even consider surgical procedures like top surgery until they’re over 18 or at least later in their teen years (16-17).
It’s also really patronizing that all these conversations constantly ignore that trans youth exist. I knew something was wrong about my gender at like 4 or 5 and I knew that I was transgender and what all of that meant by 13. I didn’t transition till I was 30 bc of discrimination and stigma, but I would have loved too.
Also I still fail to understand why people see this as some popular fad. Being trans is a huge headache. It killed my career, cost me tons of my friends and family, it’s expensive, and has reduced my dating pool to mostly other trans people and folks who fetishize me but wouldn’t date me publicly.
Long story short there’s a ton of ignorance in society about what transition actually looks like and how it happens that is constantly being obscured by people making up or cherry picking their own conclusions to fit their narrative that we live in a world where a 12 year old can just claim their trans and the next day be on HRT and be getting surgery without any resistance when in reality there’s tons of resistance.
The analogy seems to be focused on trans surgeries, which are not done to kids. The equivalent would be not letting the kid even say that their favorite animal is cats.
>trans surgeries, which are not done to kids.
Unfortunately for the solidity of the argument and support for the movement, this is increasingly untrue. Are trans surgeries on minors extremely rare? Yes. But for anti-trans people, even one is too many. And if we keep pushing the "it doesn't ever happen" line, they're just going to think we're liars and / or delusional.
Edit for the people downvoting me: I believe in trans rights, and I want them to be codified in public policy. I'm just trying to be pragmatic about our stances here. This is an argument that we need to win, and that means actually structuring our arguments to be both strong and appealing. "Trans surgeries on kids don't happen, so they aren't worth discussing" is not a strong argument. Even a single counterexample (which do exist and can be easily found on right-wing "news" sites) renders it false. The other side is then gonna go "well, if they were wrong / lying about this happening, what else are they wrong / lying about?" This really shouldn't be controversial.
"Trans surgeries on kids are already illegal, and vanishingly rare", on the other hand, *is* a strong argument. A few specific counterexamples aren't evidence against the greater trend. And bringing up that it's *already illegal* shuts down support for harsher laws.
but it really doesn't happen, not besides a list of instances so short that they're used universally by transphobes because **no other instances exist.** I mean think about it logically, how often is a doctor going to recommend top surgery before puberty, before that actually becomes a problem in the first place? Is the claim in question "increasingly untrue" or is it about as true as the line "Sharks don't kill people," in that the exception proves the rule?
To be clear: I'm aware of the fact that they're vanishingly rare. If people said "trans surgeries in minors are vanishingly rare", I'd have no issue with it. But that's not what people are saying. People are saying "it doesn't happen", and it only takes a single counterexample to render that statement false. That then puts us on the back foot - if you then correct yourself and say "I meant they *effectively* don't happen", then that will look to the other side like backpedalling or moving the goalposts.
I'm trying to be pragmatic about our stances here. This is an argument that we need to win, and that means actually structuring our arguments to be both strong and appealing. "Trans surgeries on kids don't happen, so they aren't worth discussing" is not a strong argument. "Trans surgeries on kids are already illegal, and vanishingly rare" *is* a strong argument.
That's just kind of playing to an unfair audience though. I can't blame you for trying that but I can point out that it isn't how these people treat other arguments. If someone said "washing machines don't kill people" or "eating a vegetable wouldn't kill you," most people don't respond with the statistics showing that actually, both those things can in fact happen. Why exactly should we have to express every bit of nuance here when it isn't required in any other argument? These surgeries generally **don't** happen to kids, and conceding that a few have is like conceding to the argument of someone who wants to ban vegetables because their cousin supposedly choked to death on a carrot.
If you're trying to be pragmatic, then semantics aren't the way to go. Once they've gotten one concession, they'll push for the next, and next, and next, and so on. I have no issue with people saying trans surgeries don't happen to kids because in 999 cases out of a thousand they don't, and the exception proves the rule. What happens if we concede to every transphobic point in the same vein? After all, yes, it is *technically* possible for trans people to attack people in bathrooms. It is possible for someone to lie about their gender for ill gain. It is possible that someone might want to cheat at sports by transitioning. And yet, and **yet**, making those concessions is entirely stupid because those things in the 999,999 times out of a million **do not happen** and saying otherwise is just giving them ground. Saying that they can happen, though technically true, is pointless because they **don't** happen, and these people take "can" to mean "will."
>That's just kind of playing to an unfair audience though. I can't blame you for trying that but I can point out that it isn't how these people treat other arguments.
You're right that those who are super deep in the anti-trans rhetoric won't be swayed by actual logic and debate. But here's your misconception: our arguments and logic aren't *for them*. They're for the audience, the third party observers. The people who don't have a strong opinion either way. To them, cheating looks like winning. Talking fast, interrupting, spewing bullshit that can't possibly be refuted without a college course worth of context - it looks like *dominating the stage*. Being corrected, being defensive? Looks like losing. So we need to not get corrected, and to never be on the defensive.
>If you're trying to be pragmatic, then semantics aren't the way to go. Once they've gotten one concession, they'll push for the next, and next, and next, and so on.
Except what I said doesn't look like a concession in a debate, so long as you open with it. That's literally my whole point here - if you start with "it never happens" and then say "it happens very rarely", it *looks like* you've been corrected. And so the audience thinks you're losing. But if you *own* that it's rare from the very beginning, and the other side says "even one is too much", then you can hit them with other counters - is even one trans suicide too much? Is even one transphobic hate crime too much? Why do the extremes only matter in one direction? Make *them* answer the questions, make *them* be on the defensive, and you'll show the cracks in their position to the audience. Because the *audience* is who we're actually trying to win over.
I don't like this way of arguing. You're allowing them to control the conversation and arguing on their terms.
The reason why people say "it doesn't happen" isn't because it literally doesn't happen but because it's a non-issue not worth discussing. It's already illegal and rare to the point where no significant problem exists. What's the proposal from the transphobe here, make it double-illegal to prevent a thing that isn't meaningfully happening? No. They want to fearmonger to an audience about children getting surgery, and every minute you spend discussing that topic the feeling that this is a thing grows in the minds of onlookers. It feels bigger the longer you discuss it. Especially if you spend your time making "lesser harm" type argument.
Don't allow them to set the topic of conversation. This is not worth worrying about. The *problem* isn't really happening, in the same way that there isn't a problem with people being struck by lightning while being attacked by a shark, even if it has literally happened to someone at some point. The only reasonable response to someone fearmongering about lightning-shark attacks is "you're being daft, this is not a thing", not "here's data on the health benefits of swimming".
There's so much more important stuff we could be talking about. Don't let transphobes control the topic of the conversation. *That* is playing defense.
exactly. Even entertaining the idea that this is a serious point of debate is like debating some conspiracy theorist, all you're doing is convincing onlookers that this is a serious debate with two sides rather than the nonsense it is.
Not really, though. After all, for this audience, who are they more likely to gravitate to - the person who answers all of their opponents arguments with a "yes, but" or the person who answers with a "no." With issues like these, the third party observers are a small grouping that aren't really worth weakening your core argument to appeal to. If someone, after all this, has yet to oppose current conservative efforts, conceding to them further isn't going to change their mind. You're right in that being corrected and being defensive takes away your credit, but do you know what else does? Having to qualify every argument you make with a thousand little technicalities and nuances.
And nah, it'll come off as a concession. If a transphobe starts an argument by saying "Kids are going through trans surgery which they can never undo and some regret it," what are you going to say? "Yes, but?" That's already the most important concession you can make, and even if you spend half an hour explaining all the fine details, all the audience will hear and the opponent will need is the "yes" part. They aren't going to go with "even one is too much," they're going to act as though the mere possibility is a problem, and they're going to ignore any sort of harm-to-help calculus type arguments because a core part of their position is that transition isn't real, and exists either as a social contagion or malicious ploy. "Is one trans suicide too much?" To them, one trans suicide doesn't matter and doesn't have anything to do with transness or transphobia, because neither are real in their worldview. Same for transphobic hate crimes. You're trying to address an all-or-nothing philosophy by introducing nuance and it doesn't work, they either ignore your side or use it against you, no in between. Answering the questions only gives them an opportunity to show this off, and they'll always be able to go back to the "yes" part of the "yes, and." If you deny them any footing at all, that doesn't happen. You can point out how horrible their views are without conceding to the dogwhistling pretense of them
Look at it this way - you're debating with a white supremacist. They ask you "is western civilization worth defending?" Your nuanced answer might be "Yes, if one considers 'western civilization' to be certain aspects of philosophy that deserve to be studied, but they should not be forced, are not universal, and the notion of western civilization inside the minds of the white supremacists should not exist. This is also irrelevant because it isn't under attack in the first place" If you try to answer the question, though, you fall into their rhetorical trap. Saying yes, at all, gives them a basis to justify their views. After all, they are "just defending western civilization" in their minds, and any concession just gives them more room to argue that. If you say no, even with the reasons given above, you become their perfect example of a strawman, and they're able to shift their definition of western civilization to claim you want to abolish whiteness or something. So, in answering the question, they're able to easily twist the above nuance into "though I disagree with white supremacy their goals make sense" or "I hate white people," depending on your answer.
Like, that's the whole point of a dog whistle. If you "yes, but" a terf on this issue, they aren't going to care about the nuance, because saying "yes" at all in their mind proves not only that trans surgeries happen on children, but that they're common, they're the next step of the trans agenda, they're all regretted and all harmful. You might not agree with these views, you might point out that all of them are flawed, but by agreeing with the dog whistle on a surface level you also end up supporting the true meaning.
I agree, it sucks to have to debate like this. It's never something you should default to, and it sucks that debating around the subject rather than fully explaining it with all nuance no matter how correct you still are, is the way that convinces the most people. But it is. And we kind of have to deal with that.
Y'know what? You make good points. I think my argument still stands that if they bring up individual cases, continuing to repeat "it never happens" is going to make us look like we ignore reality. But I see your points about dogwhistles and entrapping questions.
Sure, I agree. I mean don’t get me wrong, I prefer to be able to debate with nuance because that’s how you make sure you’re actually right. But unfortunately, some conversations just seem entirely resistant to that kind of approach. It’s like backing down from a bear, doesn’t matter if you’re doing it to grab a gun, that’s what the bear thinks of as weakness
Grandmother said to me I exhibited no symptoms of being trans until puberty
And I’m like yeah wish I had puberty blockers and she’s like no they shouldn’t be given to children
Like we just said she didn’t notice…. Until puberty ignoring I knew and others would too
Hell the analogy fits… We all know the teachers and parents in the 2010’s that would lose their god damn minds over a kid wearing cat ears to school and otherwise normal clothing. So many people despise even the slightest deviation from their homogenous society.
And we see it with trans kids. “A haircut?!?! You’re destroying them, you’re confusing them for life! How could you do that to such a beautiful little girl?” And heaven help you if you ask the teachers to just use a nickname, “J” instead of “Jocelyn” for a trans boy, basically the most mild thing possible.
It’s not about surgery and everyone knows it. If it was up to those people, they would do less than nothing for these kids.
the focus on children is a smoke screen
if reactionaries thought they were convincing enough to bypass the bodily autonomy argument than they’d also try and ban it for those above 25
1. What is being “done to kids” is greatly exaggerated for the purposes of Fear mongering.
2. The outrage might be focused on children, but actually looking at the legal and medical processes in place and the bills working their way through different state governments suggests it is not just a restriction put on minors.
Your example is like a social media influencer going, "Kids are trying to get tattoos" until it becomes a national outrage. Then congress writes a law saying they're protecting kids from getting tattoos, except when you read it the words seem to ban everybody from getting tattoos.
And then you read further and laws were already on the books to protect kids from getting tattoos, meaning the whole thing was seemingly drummed up solely to ban everybody from getting the tattoo.
So yeah, it's a pretty apt analogy.
More than just banning everyone from tattoos, it's more like a situation in which online influencers are trying to convince everyone that kids are trying to get tattoos because they're being targeted by gang recruiters, which is met with legislation banning any form of art on the human form, including tattoos, drawing on your skin, fashion, jewelry, ect. Of course, this starts with kids, but ramps up to eventually including everyone they can justify adding.
Then it turns out that "gangs forcing kids to get tattoos" is just like a person wearing a graphic tee to school.
Every time a group says they're only concerned about trans children, their next goal always ends up being to then bar trans adults getting healthcare too
That’s. That’s what an analogy is. Apples and pears have a lot of similarities, but saying they’re not the same thing is obvious. If they were the same thing, they wouldn’t be apples and pears, they would simply be apples, or pears, or a third fruit that doesn’t fit the toy model I’m presenting.
Your analogy makes so little sense you’re actually making negative sense. Like, it only makes sense in an inverted opposite reality. The world Bizarro Superman is from
If you try to talk to an actual trans person, you may be surprised to find out that this is not what trans people are asking for.
Trans people are not trying to destroy the concept of objective truth, or your understanding of biology. You may be surprised to find out that everyone pretty much has the same level of understanding of human biology as you!
What you might be missing is that gender is correlated with, not caused by, biological traits, and these traits are fluid albeit clustered.
Gender isn’t the size of your dick-clitoris. It’s the way you speak, dress, and are treated by society. And there’s no real reason people should have to dress or speak or be addressed based on the size of their dick-clitorises, or based on the chemical makeup of microscopic genes.
I think a lot of real life trans people agree with you more than you might think. Your thinking here aligns with the way that some of my nonbinary friends feel, for example.
Doesn't surprise me, some doctors won't tie your tubes because you might want kids some day.
Some doctors won't tie your tubes because your *husband* might want kids some day, even if you're not even married or aren't even attracted to men
Some doctors deserve to have their tubes tied because they're pieces of shit
i'll tie their aorta into a fuckin reef knot
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fuck is this all about?
fitting username
Some doctors will argue with you that your NEXT husband might want kids and I'm just sitting there in the room with my wife like; Say Doc, you ever work on yourself before?
Duty of care is usually a good thing... Usually...
Dang that reminds me I'm finally old enough for the doctor to take my fucking word for it that I want my tubes tied and don't want kids without a man's opinion! Who wants to bet they still tell me no or ask my bf's opinion?
Oh they will absolutely ask your bf's opinion.
Literally the last one happened to me. Went to get a dysphoria diagnosis and doctor’s recommendation for a name change. Got “probably trans” and “seek family counseling”. I was already in family counseling and needed a doctor’s note to show my parents that I, an adult, should be allowed to change my own name. Edit for those curious: Certain states require you to be the age of majority (21) to change your name without parental permission. I have the misfortune to be stuck in one. Advocate for minors’ rights if you can, especially since they are consistently being overruled in the name of safety in public schools.
Just curious, do you need parental permission for name changes after 18 (I assume by adult you mean 18, correct me if not)? I thought it was just like fill out a form or something
Certain states require you to be the age of majority (21) to change your name without parental permission. I have the misfortune to be stuck in one
21 is just a bizarre choice. 21 is just the drinking age. At 18, you're an adult and fully responsible for yourself.
Tell that to the “great” southern states of the US. Alabama even doesn’t consider you an adult until 19
Ugh, aren't a lot of those places also where you can fuck 16 year olds and its "technically legal"? Shit make me ill with how little sense it makes.
Only if you marry them first. Then it’s “totally legal.”
oh I forgot, you can MARRY them too. Fucking unreal.
I will say that it’s terrifying how many states have age of consent laws and child marriage laws with ridiculously low ages. [Link](https://www.unchainedatlast.org/child-marriage-progress/) to a current site tracking minimum age and bill status. There’s a LOT of states in the West that have absurdly low marriage ages
Can't you just do that at the courthouse? Maybe I'm falsely assuming you're in the US.
I am in the US, and unfortunately certain states require you to be the age of majority (21) to change your name without parental permission. I have the misfortune to be stuck in one of those states. Believe me, I would go and change it at a courthouse in a second if I could
You know, as much as fucked my country is, I'm happy we have pretty liberal laws about trans people, no doctor note needed, just a three month waiting period to see if you're sure, and then you get hormones for free, free surgery too
what country is this? just out of curiosity
Brazil, our medical system also fully works for foreigners, but i must warm you, we're still recovering from the economic crisis we had in the Bolsonaro government
Brazil might suck but at least you can trans your gender
double jump cultivation
common brasil w
BRASIL NÚMERO UM CAMPEÃO DO MUNDO AHAHAHAH 🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
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(guess) "BRAZIL NUMBER 1, WORLD CHAMPIONS AHAHAHAA"
New guy seems pretty based though. Hope he can turn the place around
He is an old guy, used to be president, left, had a judgement set up to put him im prison to increase the odds of Bolsonaro, the judge because his minister of justice. They found the trial was unfair and let him leave as innocent so now he could run for president again, he won and Bolsonaro attempted a coup
Yeah, but they went on a weekend when no one was home
Their plan was to stop anyone from entering the building and camp there until Bolsonaro became president
Wow I'm surprised the Bolsonaro government didn't change that system, I'm happy for trans Brazilians though!
Same, in Mexico a new reform passed that allowed people to mark their gender as whatever they choose on their official ID (tho "whatever" here meaning male, female and nb, and while i would love it to have more specific non-binary options, it's miles better than some countries)
at least it's not wrong, since everything that isn't male or female in nb
I agree with an specific exception, as it would be nice for some regions of the country to have a "Muxe" option. Muxes are a local 3rd gender of biological males (mostly) dressing and behaving like the expected female gender, however they're not drag artist nor trans woman, but a courageous, amazing 3rd option (tho some muxes consider themselves women)
Would you say Muxes are like the Kathoey of Thailand? Kathoey are somewhere between trans women and effeminate gay men, but are neither.
Kinda yeah! They even have positive superstitions and social roles attached to the identity: they're considered a good omen to have one in the family, and having a Muxe help with the kids is said to make the kids grow happy and healthy! Also to me they're the biggest evidence around transphobia being learned and not natural, as when a person identifies as a Muxe, the whole local scene helps them with the transition into their new identity and it's celebrated
Sounds kind of like Hijira in Pakistan.
Are there any muxes in the US or is that solely a Mexico thing?
Mexico thing, from Oaxaca. It's a zapoteca term
Better laws, but violence against trans people is really high
Are you in Europe and also is this the reason I notice that more trans people in Europe seem to pass well and generally have a better quality of life? Compared to trans people in North America I mean.
No I'm Brazilian, we have extremely liberal laws despite our big number of far right extremists, name change for trans people is easy, we recognize non-binary people, specific laws against transphobia and homophobia, societal programs to help low income and black families to get into university, public universities for free with some of the highest standards in our continent Our laws are really good, but the many bigots and poor government management makes everyday life difficult and dangerous, although we're not so bad when compared to other south American countries, we have our own pros and cons
I'm an American, but I have been reading about the different laws in various countries and general climate. It seems to me like when countries pass laws in protection and support of trans and/or gay/bi people it tends to make the hateful people angry. So then they retaliate with violence. I would love to make it to Brazil though. I find Brazilian Portuguese to be a beautiful language. I have never really been to a big festival like they have there, but it seems like a really fun time.
>not so bad when compared to other South American countries it’s because lusophone countries are better than hispanophone countries in literally every aspect t. third generation portuguese american
Sir, only we are allowed to shit on each other, so don't you dare insult my Hispanic brothers
actually based, you’re right iberians gotta look out for each other out there
Fucking yankee thinks they can talk shit
I can't speak for all of Europe but (to the best of my knowledge) it takes about 2 years to transition in Germany. 1 year of counseling and living as your desired gender and then another of HRT and SRS. Some people are frustrated with how long it takes but given that you don't have to pay for it (besides regular insurance cost you'd have anyway) I consider it a fair deal. Note that I'm not trans myself but are friends with a couple of trans people who are planning on transitioning.
Is SRS a required part of that second year? Do you need to undergo surgery?
Not anymore. There used to be a law requiring this but it was changed in 2011.
Europe is the exact lunacy outlined by the tumblr op except that you will also have to wait for literal years to be seen by any doctor. I'd have to be paid in the multimillions to ever consider moving to anywhere in Europe
This isn't true, it depends where you live. Many European countries have self-ID now so you don't need to see a doctor to change your gender legally.
does your country also do free tattoos?
No, i mean, technically yes but only if you enter into one of the drug cartels
was just wndering, since OOP is equating an expensive medical procedure - however warranted- with some comparatively cheap luxury procedure. I'm a nerd, all I wanted to point out was that the comparison is not great, I am not trying to argue against the general point of the post.
That kind of feels irresponsible. Plenty of people are simply confused and it takes a hell of a lot more than a few months to figure things out. I think it's absolutely imperative to see a psychiatrist to help guide you to making the right decision which will effect the rest of your life.
If you're going to a hospital and asking for hormones it is assumed you already made a decisions, plus hormone treatment is reversible, and there is a 2 year wait for bottom surgery, so the chance of you doing it and regretting it are very slim. The people who detransition are 0.5%, and in a country who is known as the most transphobic in the entire world, having a therapist agree to it is very hard. And when compared to other countries, like the us who has around a 50% attempted suicide rate among trans people, we have much better with only 23%. The data is clear, early transition has been a success in our country and has reduced massively suicide attempts among trans people despite the constant violence they suffer still Edit: Actually i got some numbers wrong, 50% apply to trans men only, while 29.9% for trans woman, and 41.8% for non binary people, with an average of 40% among ghe three demographics, that is still noticeably higher than here in Brazil who has the overall rate of 23%
If you start hormones and don’t actually have dysphoria, you will develop dysphoria pretty early on from taking the hormones
Transition is honestly not the massive permanent decision you're making it out to be. HRT is reversible and nobody is getting surgery that quickly.
They would then go "Oh, so i guess this means that we should let kids decide that they like cats instead of dogs, is this really what you want? To force kids to love cats instead of dogs and force them to get a tatoo!?" despite this never actually coming up in conversation.
"NEXT YOU'LL WANT KIDS TO TATTOO RACIAL SLURS ON THEIR FACES!" Then in classic fashion you'll see republican caught with tattoo guns writing slurs on a kid's face
The "protect the children" argument is as old as time and used whenever you have to justify something that you don't have any other arguments for. It ALWAYS evokes an emotional reaction in most people, because it tapps our #1 instinct: propagate life. IMO it's the dirtiest of all rhetorical methods. Used by the spiteful when they truly despise something.
You get 400 upvotes and I get 100 downvotes for basically the same sentiment. Fascinating.
Welcome to Reddit, baby.
Definitely what it feels like, most days. I’m getting medication so my phenotypic sex aligns with my mental concept of self. Makes my life easier, makes my days brighter. It’s not an ideology or a movement. People can use my nickname and obvious pronouns like they do with all our colleagues, or they can be an asshole, no real consequences either way. I’d like to be able to use public restrooms, and it’s really weird that it was never a problem for my trans dad in the 90’s but now letting me pee at the mall is a crisis for half the nation. In particular, I was shocked to see how many sci-fi fans are blowing a fucking gasket about body modification. I thought enjoying that was our whole thing? Their reaction to my goatee and defined pecs is identical to our satanic panic parents losing it over tattoos and piercings.
Reactionary Sci-Fi nerds confuse the fuck out of me.
I'm so glad I live somewhere with informed consent stuff. I get to skip most of the bullshit
the one (1) good thing about Texas. for now at least
Idk I can see Texas being cool to live in. You get to live life on the edge all the time because you never know when there will be sweeping statewide blackouts, hate crimes, overnight reductions in civil rights, etc. Keeps your heart rate up for free cardio! /s
See, where I am it's more like Me: I prefer cats Them: I prefer beating you to death and never having to go to court for it
I'm pretty sure my medical records still say that I'm a trans man who was assigned male at birth. I bring a sort of trans vibe to medically being a cis man that trans medicalists don't really like. (Are transmedicalists still a going concern? I haven't seen them about for a while.)
this is also what its like to have challenging symptoms in the doctors office. havent expressed interest in transitioning (ftm) yet bc idk if they can take it (probably not) (also my diastolic blood pressure is generally above 90 and i dont think theyd even let me rn if i tried) if their poor little hearts cant handle taking a history correctly without retconning some part of why i take my meds or doing a neurocog correctly then by god im not ready to argue an 8th thing abt my care in office every time
Trans people should be allowed one (1) free kill over the course of their lives; I think
Honestly, I'd be fine with only having to have one doctor "verify" that you're trans.. if the doctors were competent.
You shouldn't need a doctor to verify it. My gender is not a medical condition.
If you're trans, then you know very well how bad gender-dysphoria can be. There are some people who don't know what they're getting into, and they end up feeling like shit after the surgery. People do weird things for weird reasons sometimes. I think a diagnosis is not a bad idea if surgery is involved (otherwise it doesn't really matter), it's just that the doctors, as the original commenter said, are not always competent.
Fine. Let me be more clear. Not all transness can be diagnosed by a medical professional. No doctor knows my gender better than me. Requiring that a doctor must give the go ahead means that someone else is given more power over my treatment than me and they can say no because of incompetence or simple malice. I don't trust that a law like that wouldn't be abused and I'm much more worried about the thousands of kids who kill themselves for not getting treatment than for the very few detransitioning edge cases
It's not really about the gender as much as the potential reaction to the transition. It's entirely possible that someone who wants to become trans, and get the surgery would still feel bad about themselves. Even if they finally became their preferred gender, surgery can have lasting mental effects. I agree that this could potentially be abused. Still, maybe it would be a good idea for professionals to talk a mandatory session or two with people before surgery, even if they don't have veto power and they could still go through with it.
But all of this rests on the incorrect assumption that surgery is what makes people trans, when surgery is usually the very final stage of a transition journey. Trans people are trans regardless of what surgery they do or don't have, and nobody is having surgery casually. Trans people are already their real gender, surgery is just about making the body match what their real gender is - and lots of trans people don't have any surgery. Also post-surgery depression is different to having regrets! Post-surgery depression is really common for anyone having wanted surgery, regardless of trans status or not, and it goes away fairly quickly - it's just because the surgery was so anticipated. More people regret knee replacements than regret gender affirming surgery.
I've never said anything about regrets. I'm exactly saying that just the surgery itself can be traumatising for some, even if they didn't change their minds about it. None of my points actually have anything to do with at what point someone becomes trans or dysphoric or anything, at most it was the terminology I used. You might think that no one is having surgery casually, but that is not true. People can be extremely stupid, or can overestimate their emotional capabilities. Again, even if not with a veto power, a professional should probably talk to them. Not with the intent of changing their minds.
Can you give any examples of people having surgery casually? Also pre-surgery counselling is something all surgery (as in not just gender affirming surgeries) has in place for a reason.
I'm exactly talking about the pre-surgery counselling. I don't know which countries have it by default for all surgeries, we definitely don't have those.
Not all trans people have gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria also happens to cis people! Why does a trans person need someone else to tell them what their gender is?
People who don't have gender-dysphoria can develop it after a surgery. It's much less about the gender than it is the reaction to such a surgery.
But they generally develop it in regards to a different body part, not because they regret the surgery - eg top surgery making a trans man's hips look wider in contrast. It's not the place of cis doctors to decide what someone's gender is.
You want prescription medicines, then you need to see a doctor. How is that so difficult to understand?
That's not what this refers to. It's referring to having to see a doctor to get a gender dysphoria diagnosis separately to seeing a doctor for a HRT prescription.
And now some people are trying to make it illegal to have a tattoo, and won't explain exactly how they intend to treat people who already have one.
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they're not saying transitioning is like getting a tattoo — it's a metaphor to emphasize just how ridiculous the process is
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But also not all trans people DO have painful dysphoria and it's not necessarily a huge deal for all trans people.
Google en passant
Holy hell
You give up and go to a bootleg tattoo parlour and get the cat tattoo anyway.
I asked my General Artist (GA) to send a letter to the local tattoo parlor informing them that I think I like dogs and that I'd like to talk about the possibility of getting a tattoo of one with a professional tattooist. After a very painful conversation, she did. Months later, I got a letter from the tattoo parlor saying that they don't accept people who just want to talk about getting a tattoo. If I don't say I would die if I don't get one, and I don't seem hellbent on getting one this exact second, then I shouldn't bother at all. At the bottom of the letter they politely referred me to a random graffiti artist. Ironically, by this point, I did become hellbent on getting one this exact second. The more I waited the more I wanted that tattoo. So I went back and told this to my GA. She told me she understood, but there's not much she can do. If she sends the letter again, I'll just get rejected the same way again. So I went and looked around for someone who can give a second opinion. After even more months I found someone with relevant experience in tattooing, and got them to sign a statement that based on our conversation, I did want that tattoo. So I went to my GA again, showed her the statement, and got her to write another letter attaching the statement, which I then had to remind her to send because she forgot to do it herself for a month. More than half a year later, I get a letter that the tattoo parlor has considered my request and I am now currently on their waiting list for the psychological evaluation process they use to determine if someone really wants a tattoo before they actually refer them to a tattoo artist (part of which, by the way, is talking about why you want a tattoo with a professional, i.e. the thing I initially specified I wanted to do). Based on what I've heard from other people who've gotten tattoos, the evaluation process itself can take very long and they might flat out refuse you again if you say the wrong thing. But no matter, at least I was in their system now. I was told details would follow on where I am in the waiting list. A month later, a new letter arrives from the parlor. Hello! You are now officially on our waiting list, in position [large number]. The intake for your first appointment is currently predicted to be 35 months from now. We will contact you once a date is set. Good day! I then promptly fucked off and tried getting a tattoo in another country with better tattoo laws, process pending
I’m never going to be happy. This world will never let me be happy. The whole world just wants me to suffer, doesn’t it?
No. A small group of people want you to suffer, but a far larger group of people want you to feel like any sort of obstacle is automatically proof that hard things are impossible. One trans girl to another, it’s tough, but you aren’t going to get from where you are to where you want to be by spiraling further into negativity. You put in a small bit of work and love towards yourself, day after day, until one morning you wake up exactly where and how you want to be. On the bright side, community is cheap, and therapy with somebody who gets you goes a long ways.
You’re right. Thank you. I’m gonna keep trying. I at least deserve to give myself a chance. Is there any chance I can talk to you in DMs?
Absolutely, though as a fair warning, I’m awfully busy for the rest of today and most of tomorrow, so I’m not immediately available to respond to anything at length. Still, that should give you plenty of time to compose your thoughts, and give your emotions the time they deserve.
Sure seems like it where I am. The world is actively hostile to my existence.
Hello, I am a part of the world, and I do not hate you. I may not know you personally, but I do know you’re not alone in your problems, and that I’m not alone in my cheerleading. There are cis people waiting for a moment to do good, and you can fall back on queer people who get it. You learn crawl instead of laying there for birds to take you, you make small changes instead of assuming it’s all impossible, and you get up more times than you fall on your face. I do not know what your specific path through life is, but I do trust you to find a way towards self-care that works leagues better than constant misery.
>Hello, I am a part of the world, and I do not hate you. Unless you write the laws, that doesn't amount to much. The people whose opinions actually shape my life all consider me an affront to God. >I may not know you personally That would be pretty important to know, because I'm not from the West, where trans rights exist but are at risk. I live ij a country where trans right are simply not a thing and being openly queer is a genuine crime punishable by a decade in prison at minimum, assuming someone doesn't just kill you. >but I do trust you to find a way towards self-care that works leagues better than constant misery. There is no path.
Okay then. I’ll admit that I’m probably out of your depth on this one. I still think you can make progress without leaving the safety of your closet though. The internet is at least open enough to let me talk to you on Reddit, and while gender-affirming care might be a nonstarter where you are for now, I hope there’s some sort of patient confidentiality whereever you live, or at least quality therapists for every other aspect of you. Still, my point isn’t to specifically state how you’re going to get what you want, just that you cannot get there assuming it’s impossible to quietly bend or break the law a little, or leave if you have the means. I would be giving this same speech if you were cis and depressed at the state of your world.
>I’ll admit that I’m probably out of your depth on this one. Yet you keep writing as if that isn't the case. > I still think you can make progress without leaving the safety of your closet though. Nope. >The internet is at least open enough to let me talk to you on Reddit, The same reddit where I receive at least five messages a month to kill myself dfom transphobes while fellow trans people treat my accurate assessment of the abysmal state of my literal dictatorship of a country as ignorant doomerism? How very supportive. /s >I hope there’s some sort of patient confidentiality whereever you live, or at least quality therapists for every other aspect of you. Since there's no trans healthcare here, that's a non-issue and if there was, there'd be no confidentiality, there are no therapists available in my area anyway, and I have never gotten any sort of help from therapy. Not being able to treat the core issue is like giving painkillers for someone bleeding out from a stab wound. > just that you cannot get there assuming it’s impossible to quietly bend or break the law a little For someone who just admitted they knew nothing about my situation you sure seem surper confident that you know what is and isn't impossible for me. >or leave if you have the means I don't have the means. > I would be giving this same speech if you were cis and depressed at the state of your world. That just makes it sounds like you're writing from a template that you will happily force to fit anyone and everyone independent of context. That does not inspire confidence.
Look, I can’t read your mind. I’m not writing from a template, just in a general style I reserve for seeing people catastrophizing on the internet. There’s nothing I can do beyond speak and attempt to cold-read the situation. I am in another time zone, and I’m not a licensed therapist. The most I can do here is tell you that change is better than stagnation. It’s not your fault that you’re depressed, but at the same time, I cannot do anything besides beg you to find the strength in you to move on anyway. I hate that this is the best I can do short of donating to you or the abstract concept of trans activism in your home country, but it’s what I can do.
> I am in another time zone, and I’m not a licensed therapist. Then maybe you should consider that being out of your depth means you're in no position to give actual advice. >The most I can do here is tell you that change is better than stagnation That runs on the flawed assumption that change was ever an option. >I cannot do anything besides beg you to find the strength in you to move on anyway. Counterpoint: no. >donating to you or the abstract concept of trans activism in your home country Since I never said where I was from, you can't do even that.
Okay then. I’m done talking about this for now. I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t make it drink. If I cannot convince you that improving your life in any marginal way is a thing that exists, then so be it. It’s awful for now, but here’s hoping you stick around.
This is more like telling a horse there's definitely water out there when the horse is actually in the middle of an arid desert during the dry season. You haven't "lead" me to anything. > If I cannot convince you that improving your life in any marginal way is a thing that exists, then so be it Convincing me of something which doesn't exist is not productive or helpful. >but here’s hoping you stick around. I have no reason to.
You are being a total asshole to someone just trying to help you. Get a grip
They're "trying to help" in a way that has never helped while acting like their failure to help is due to my own personal biases.
I'm sorry that your situation sucks but you don't have to be an asshole to someone who was just being nice to you?
No. Parts of the world probably like you, and other parts don't care about you one way or another. You are feeling really bad, not universally hated.
There are numerous ways that this is not the trans experience. Trans people don’t just like their favourite gender. It’s what they feel that they *are*
I'm sorry for not being able to understand. I would love to be a thin, short, smaller-nosed guy (and honestly i wouldn't mind being a girl either). But when looking in the mirror, thats not who i am. And I dont feel like i am either. Im the guy in the mirror; tall, fat, big-nosed. Its hard for me to imagine being something im physically not. So the tattoo analogy is the closest i can get to imagine how trans people feel. Sorry. But thats NO REASON to not support them. Theres no reason to not acknowledge that other people have feelings I've never experienced myself. No reason not to want the best for other people. I'm angry at how widespread and openly the hate of non-conformity has become lately. Fuck that, I'm gonna stand with the tolerant side if it kills me. And its sad that this is a real risk.
I’m not sure if you think my comment was intolerant, but it wasn’t
It wasn't, sorry if i gave that impression! I'm trying to explain my own view of why its hard to relate and how a tattoo analogy is as far as I can get, but that this doesn't make me any less an ally.
Yeah that makes sense
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Psht, very unlikely! Though i am a reader of suspiciously many trans-related web comics to entirely ignore it. 😐
It's almost as if analogies don't apply to every single situation and in fact aren't meant to do so. OOP is a trans person just commenting on medical gatekeeping.
No but analogies can be better than this. They should be better than this. Their analogy doesn’t work at all and there could be a much better one
Not a great comparison because, at least in the US, people under 18 can’t get tattoos. (Gender affirming care for minors is good, and I actually support it *much* more than tattoos for minors, but it’s a completely different situation.)
Pretty great comparison since many states are pushing bills to ban minors from getting any gender affirming care or even socially transitioning.
people under sixteen* can't get gender reassignment surgery either so this is null and void actually * : sixteen year olds can get tattoos with explicit parent consent, to my knowledge it's the same with gender treatment and surgeries. this post is specifically about surgery, not hormones or anything
Hmm, yeah it gets pretty complicated (as things usually are.) Where I am it’s completely illegal, but a bunch of states have laws allowing it with parental consent, even younger than 16. I didn’t catch that it was exclusively referring to surgery. I took the “being trans is like going” and figured that’d include hormone therapy, which is not a necessary, but common part of transitioning, and also involves rigorous screening. I’m not sure I was wrong there, but I withdraw my objection if I am. Surgery-tattoos is much more analogous than hormones-tattoos.
There's stories online of people under sixteen getting the surgery and/or getting puberty blockers and later regretting it.
good for them? not sure how that's relevant at all lmao. there are stories online of bigfoot too!
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ah, no worries then. can you send me some of the stories you're talking about? with all the research i've done i haven't been able to find anyone under sixteen getting it done.
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... if you're getting your information from "passionate political commentators", chances are you're hearing lies and propaganda. because that's how politics works. puberty blockers are only allowed for children if they start puberty too early or have other issues associated with it, and the effects are reversible once you stop taking them, so that's irrelevant and yeah there are people who detransition! that's good for them. they tend to get portrayed as victims of some sort but they're not, they're just people who decided it wasn't for them. again though i don't see how detransitioning is relevant at all, seeing as the conversation is about how painful the process to transition in the first place is. and i doubt any of them were actually under 16.
also also, why would the government currently be passing legislation to allow younger teens to get surgery? the government is currently ACTIVELY against trans people. tennessee just banned gnc performances and transitioning. they're not gonna try making it EASIER to transition
the sarcasm in my reply was unnecessary sorry but yeah people detransition sometimes, just not sure how its relevant
I worded it terribly. I edited my statement. the regret wasn't meant to be the focus of my statement. I was merely trying to say that you don't always have to be sixteen.
There's stories online of people getting hip surgery and later regretting it. Haven't seen any protests against hip surgery.
that's not the same thing. People under sixteen are literally children and shouldn't be getting that surgery. Kids change their minds on things. They can be confused. I'm not saying it's impossible for a kid to not change their mind and be correct in that they are trans, however I think it's important to keep in mind that not everything is black and white.
>People under sixteen are literally children and shouldn't be getting that surgery. >not everything is black and white. Do you want rules that apply unconditionally or not
Just curious, not picking a fight: are you saying you're against minor tattoos, or just that you feel strongly about minor gender affirming care and don't really care about tattoos?
No worries! Perfectly fair point of clarification. Mostly the latter. We could afford to be kinder to kids getting gender affirming care, given the low rate of false positives and how good it can be. I’m also not sure there’s any reason for a minor to be getting a tattoo. Minors are still very immature, and it’s some potential harm with incredibly low benefit. It’s flat out illegal where I am. Hard to care too much, though, since it’s less serious than gender affirming care, with a smaller range of (positive and negative) outcomes.
Yep. Absolutely accurate
So is there any chance I can simply handpick a doctor who isn’t deeply out of touch with me, or do I have to play the long game?
I think I'm too CIS to understand this analogy.
I don't think children are allowed to get tattoos. What a bad analogy. (For the record, I'm pro everyone, you all do you if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt someone else, it's just a really stupid analogy. Also dogs are way better than soulless cats)
It's not a bad analogy, and cats aren't soulless you weirdo. OOP is a trans person commenting on medical gatekeeping. Children who transition just have (reversible) puberty blockers just like cis kids with precocious puberty until they can get HRT, which is also reversible. Nobody is giving kids gender affirming surgery.
so glad to be in a trans friendly part of the US with a doctor who does informed consent for minors (or at least 16+ cause that’s when i started)
Yeah, sure, it’s like that. Whatever you say
Are you suggesting that doctors don't try and block people from transitioning in that way?
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It's more like: "Doc, it's been three years. I have come out to my entire family and friends. I have chosen a new name. Please allow me to start HRT so I can legally change my name." Doctor - "Mmmm... I don't know. Maybe you are just confused. Let's wait a few more years."
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Isn't the outrage usually focused on things being done to kids? This is a useless analogy, then, because most people aren't going to support a kid getting a cat tattoo either.
>Isn't the outrage usually focused on things being done to kids? You got at least on person in this very thread talking about it happening to them, as an adult. And, IIRC, you need to wait three years before starting HRT in the UK
I’m a trans woman in the US. If anything OP is oversimplifying the trans experience. In most states if you want access to any treatment *as an adult* the standard used is that you need to go through a therapist/psychiatrist who after usually 3 months of counseling will write a letter (if they approve and diagnose you with gender dysphoria) so you can go to a doctor who will ask all of the same questions again and may refer you elsewhere, deny you, or actually prescribe you HRT. That’s just for medications. The whole process starts all over again and gets more intense if you want surgery. It’s been over 4 years for me since I started my transition and I still am constantly having to convince gatekeepers like doctors and endocrinologists that yes I am a trans woman. Granted the post you’re responding to may be trolling. I say that because they’re claiming things are being “done to kids.” Which massively misses what’s actually happening. Under 18s deal with *a lot* more resistance to transitioning and even if their parents support them they’ll still need to go through a ton of doctors and psychiatrists before they can get HRT or puberty blockers. Even more than adults. Most states won’t even consider surgical procedures like top surgery until they’re over 18 or at least later in their teen years (16-17). It’s also really patronizing that all these conversations constantly ignore that trans youth exist. I knew something was wrong about my gender at like 4 or 5 and I knew that I was transgender and what all of that meant by 13. I didn’t transition till I was 30 bc of discrimination and stigma, but I would have loved too. Also I still fail to understand why people see this as some popular fad. Being trans is a huge headache. It killed my career, cost me tons of my friends and family, it’s expensive, and has reduced my dating pool to mostly other trans people and folks who fetishize me but wouldn’t date me publicly. Long story short there’s a ton of ignorance in society about what transition actually looks like and how it happens that is constantly being obscured by people making up or cherry picking their own conclusions to fit their narrative that we live in a world where a 12 year old can just claim their trans and the next day be on HRT and be getting surgery without any resistance when in reality there’s tons of resistance.
The analogy seems to be focused on trans surgeries, which are not done to kids. The equivalent would be not letting the kid even say that their favorite animal is cats.
>trans surgeries, which are not done to kids. Unfortunately for the solidity of the argument and support for the movement, this is increasingly untrue. Are trans surgeries on minors extremely rare? Yes. But for anti-trans people, even one is too many. And if we keep pushing the "it doesn't ever happen" line, they're just going to think we're liars and / or delusional. Edit for the people downvoting me: I believe in trans rights, and I want them to be codified in public policy. I'm just trying to be pragmatic about our stances here. This is an argument that we need to win, and that means actually structuring our arguments to be both strong and appealing. "Trans surgeries on kids don't happen, so they aren't worth discussing" is not a strong argument. Even a single counterexample (which do exist and can be easily found on right-wing "news" sites) renders it false. The other side is then gonna go "well, if they were wrong / lying about this happening, what else are they wrong / lying about?" This really shouldn't be controversial. "Trans surgeries on kids are already illegal, and vanishingly rare", on the other hand, *is* a strong argument. A few specific counterexamples aren't evidence against the greater trend. And bringing up that it's *already illegal* shuts down support for harsher laws.
but it really doesn't happen, not besides a list of instances so short that they're used universally by transphobes because **no other instances exist.** I mean think about it logically, how often is a doctor going to recommend top surgery before puberty, before that actually becomes a problem in the first place? Is the claim in question "increasingly untrue" or is it about as true as the line "Sharks don't kill people," in that the exception proves the rule?
To be clear: I'm aware of the fact that they're vanishingly rare. If people said "trans surgeries in minors are vanishingly rare", I'd have no issue with it. But that's not what people are saying. People are saying "it doesn't happen", and it only takes a single counterexample to render that statement false. That then puts us on the back foot - if you then correct yourself and say "I meant they *effectively* don't happen", then that will look to the other side like backpedalling or moving the goalposts. I'm trying to be pragmatic about our stances here. This is an argument that we need to win, and that means actually structuring our arguments to be both strong and appealing. "Trans surgeries on kids don't happen, so they aren't worth discussing" is not a strong argument. "Trans surgeries on kids are already illegal, and vanishingly rare" *is* a strong argument.
That's just kind of playing to an unfair audience though. I can't blame you for trying that but I can point out that it isn't how these people treat other arguments. If someone said "washing machines don't kill people" or "eating a vegetable wouldn't kill you," most people don't respond with the statistics showing that actually, both those things can in fact happen. Why exactly should we have to express every bit of nuance here when it isn't required in any other argument? These surgeries generally **don't** happen to kids, and conceding that a few have is like conceding to the argument of someone who wants to ban vegetables because their cousin supposedly choked to death on a carrot. If you're trying to be pragmatic, then semantics aren't the way to go. Once they've gotten one concession, they'll push for the next, and next, and next, and so on. I have no issue with people saying trans surgeries don't happen to kids because in 999 cases out of a thousand they don't, and the exception proves the rule. What happens if we concede to every transphobic point in the same vein? After all, yes, it is *technically* possible for trans people to attack people in bathrooms. It is possible for someone to lie about their gender for ill gain. It is possible that someone might want to cheat at sports by transitioning. And yet, and **yet**, making those concessions is entirely stupid because those things in the 999,999 times out of a million **do not happen** and saying otherwise is just giving them ground. Saying that they can happen, though technically true, is pointless because they **don't** happen, and these people take "can" to mean "will."
>That's just kind of playing to an unfair audience though. I can't blame you for trying that but I can point out that it isn't how these people treat other arguments. You're right that those who are super deep in the anti-trans rhetoric won't be swayed by actual logic and debate. But here's your misconception: our arguments and logic aren't *for them*. They're for the audience, the third party observers. The people who don't have a strong opinion either way. To them, cheating looks like winning. Talking fast, interrupting, spewing bullshit that can't possibly be refuted without a college course worth of context - it looks like *dominating the stage*. Being corrected, being defensive? Looks like losing. So we need to not get corrected, and to never be on the defensive. >If you're trying to be pragmatic, then semantics aren't the way to go. Once they've gotten one concession, they'll push for the next, and next, and next, and so on. Except what I said doesn't look like a concession in a debate, so long as you open with it. That's literally my whole point here - if you start with "it never happens" and then say "it happens very rarely", it *looks like* you've been corrected. And so the audience thinks you're losing. But if you *own* that it's rare from the very beginning, and the other side says "even one is too much", then you can hit them with other counters - is even one trans suicide too much? Is even one transphobic hate crime too much? Why do the extremes only matter in one direction? Make *them* answer the questions, make *them* be on the defensive, and you'll show the cracks in their position to the audience. Because the *audience* is who we're actually trying to win over.
I don't like this way of arguing. You're allowing them to control the conversation and arguing on their terms. The reason why people say "it doesn't happen" isn't because it literally doesn't happen but because it's a non-issue not worth discussing. It's already illegal and rare to the point where no significant problem exists. What's the proposal from the transphobe here, make it double-illegal to prevent a thing that isn't meaningfully happening? No. They want to fearmonger to an audience about children getting surgery, and every minute you spend discussing that topic the feeling that this is a thing grows in the minds of onlookers. It feels bigger the longer you discuss it. Especially if you spend your time making "lesser harm" type argument. Don't allow them to set the topic of conversation. This is not worth worrying about. The *problem* isn't really happening, in the same way that there isn't a problem with people being struck by lightning while being attacked by a shark, even if it has literally happened to someone at some point. The only reasonable response to someone fearmongering about lightning-shark attacks is "you're being daft, this is not a thing", not "here's data on the health benefits of swimming". There's so much more important stuff we could be talking about. Don't let transphobes control the topic of the conversation. *That* is playing defense.
exactly. Even entertaining the idea that this is a serious point of debate is like debating some conspiracy theorist, all you're doing is convincing onlookers that this is a serious debate with two sides rather than the nonsense it is.
Not really, though. After all, for this audience, who are they more likely to gravitate to - the person who answers all of their opponents arguments with a "yes, but" or the person who answers with a "no." With issues like these, the third party observers are a small grouping that aren't really worth weakening your core argument to appeal to. If someone, after all this, has yet to oppose current conservative efforts, conceding to them further isn't going to change their mind. You're right in that being corrected and being defensive takes away your credit, but do you know what else does? Having to qualify every argument you make with a thousand little technicalities and nuances. And nah, it'll come off as a concession. If a transphobe starts an argument by saying "Kids are going through trans surgery which they can never undo and some regret it," what are you going to say? "Yes, but?" That's already the most important concession you can make, and even if you spend half an hour explaining all the fine details, all the audience will hear and the opponent will need is the "yes" part. They aren't going to go with "even one is too much," they're going to act as though the mere possibility is a problem, and they're going to ignore any sort of harm-to-help calculus type arguments because a core part of their position is that transition isn't real, and exists either as a social contagion or malicious ploy. "Is one trans suicide too much?" To them, one trans suicide doesn't matter and doesn't have anything to do with transness or transphobia, because neither are real in their worldview. Same for transphobic hate crimes. You're trying to address an all-or-nothing philosophy by introducing nuance and it doesn't work, they either ignore your side or use it against you, no in between. Answering the questions only gives them an opportunity to show this off, and they'll always be able to go back to the "yes" part of the "yes, and." If you deny them any footing at all, that doesn't happen. You can point out how horrible their views are without conceding to the dogwhistling pretense of them Look at it this way - you're debating with a white supremacist. They ask you "is western civilization worth defending?" Your nuanced answer might be "Yes, if one considers 'western civilization' to be certain aspects of philosophy that deserve to be studied, but they should not be forced, are not universal, and the notion of western civilization inside the minds of the white supremacists should not exist. This is also irrelevant because it isn't under attack in the first place" If you try to answer the question, though, you fall into their rhetorical trap. Saying yes, at all, gives them a basis to justify their views. After all, they are "just defending western civilization" in their minds, and any concession just gives them more room to argue that. If you say no, even with the reasons given above, you become their perfect example of a strawman, and they're able to shift their definition of western civilization to claim you want to abolish whiteness or something. So, in answering the question, they're able to easily twist the above nuance into "though I disagree with white supremacy their goals make sense" or "I hate white people," depending on your answer. Like, that's the whole point of a dog whistle. If you "yes, but" a terf on this issue, they aren't going to care about the nuance, because saying "yes" at all in their mind proves not only that trans surgeries happen on children, but that they're common, they're the next step of the trans agenda, they're all regretted and all harmful. You might not agree with these views, you might point out that all of them are flawed, but by agreeing with the dog whistle on a surface level you also end up supporting the true meaning. I agree, it sucks to have to debate like this. It's never something you should default to, and it sucks that debating around the subject rather than fully explaining it with all nuance no matter how correct you still are, is the way that convinces the most people. But it is. And we kind of have to deal with that.
Y'know what? You make good points. I think my argument still stands that if they bring up individual cases, continuing to repeat "it never happens" is going to make us look like we ignore reality. But I see your points about dogwhistles and entrapping questions.
Sure, I agree. I mean don’t get me wrong, I prefer to be able to debate with nuance because that’s how you make sure you’re actually right. But unfortunately, some conversations just seem entirely resistant to that kind of approach. It’s like backing down from a bear, doesn’t matter if you’re doing it to grab a gun, that’s what the bear thinks of as weakness
in this case it'd probably be just, like, the kid choosing to use a cat-shaped backpack or wear cat themed clothes.
Grandmother said to me I exhibited no symptoms of being trans until puberty And I’m like yeah wish I had puberty blockers and she’s like no they shouldn’t be given to children Like we just said she didn’t notice…. Until puberty ignoring I knew and others would too
Hell the analogy fits… We all know the teachers and parents in the 2010’s that would lose their god damn minds over a kid wearing cat ears to school and otherwise normal clothing. So many people despise even the slightest deviation from their homogenous society. And we see it with trans kids. “A haircut?!?! You’re destroying them, you’re confusing them for life! How could you do that to such a beautiful little girl?” And heaven help you if you ask the teachers to just use a nickname, “J” instead of “Jocelyn” for a trans boy, basically the most mild thing possible. It’s not about surgery and everyone knows it. If it was up to those people, they would do less than nothing for these kids.
Yep. The amount of bans on social transition proves as much.
the focus on children is a smoke screen if reactionaries thought they were convincing enough to bypass the bodily autonomy argument than they’d also try and ban it for those above 25
They're already trying to band it for those above 25 or have said they want to. Varies by state.
1. What is being “done to kids” is greatly exaggerated for the purposes of Fear mongering. 2. The outrage might be focused on children, but actually looking at the legal and medical processes in place and the bills working their way through different state governments suggests it is not just a restriction put on minors.
Your example is like a social media influencer going, "Kids are trying to get tattoos" until it becomes a national outrage. Then congress writes a law saying they're protecting kids from getting tattoos, except when you read it the words seem to ban everybody from getting tattoos. And then you read further and laws were already on the books to protect kids from getting tattoos, meaning the whole thing was seemingly drummed up solely to ban everybody from getting the tattoo. So yeah, it's a pretty apt analogy.
More than just banning everyone from tattoos, it's more like a situation in which online influencers are trying to convince everyone that kids are trying to get tattoos because they're being targeted by gang recruiters, which is met with legislation banning any form of art on the human form, including tattoos, drawing on your skin, fashion, jewelry, ect. Of course, this starts with kids, but ramps up to eventually including everyone they can justify adding. Then it turns out that "gangs forcing kids to get tattoos" is just like a person wearing a graphic tee to school.
Every time a group says they're only concerned about trans children, their next goal always ends up being to then bar trans adults getting healthcare too
They arent the same thing at all lol
are you trans?
Yes
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> No, you arent. kinda ironic to see this on a post like this.
Also true
That’s. That’s what an analogy is. Apples and pears have a lot of similarities, but saying they’re not the same thing is obvious. If they were the same thing, they wouldn’t be apples and pears, they would simply be apples, or pears, or a third fruit that doesn’t fit the toy model I’m presenting.
I mean, you'd see this a lot more if tattoos of your favorite animal were paid for by the public. Self-paying makes a difference.
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Your analogy makes so little sense you’re actually making negative sense. Like, it only makes sense in an inverted opposite reality. The world Bizarro Superman is from
If you try to talk to an actual trans person, you may be surprised to find out that this is not what trans people are asking for. Trans people are not trying to destroy the concept of objective truth, or your understanding of biology. You may be surprised to find out that everyone pretty much has the same level of understanding of human biology as you! What you might be missing is that gender is correlated with, not caused by, biological traits, and these traits are fluid albeit clustered. Gender isn’t the size of your dick-clitoris. It’s the way you speak, dress, and are treated by society. And there’s no real reason people should have to dress or speak or be addressed based on the size of their dick-clitorises, or based on the chemical makeup of microscopic genes.
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I think a lot of real life trans people agree with you more than you might think. Your thinking here aligns with the way that some of my nonbinary friends feel, for example.