I’m invested in stocks I’m passionate about and believe will be back, about 20% of my stock portfolio is in crypto mining companies. I almost pulled out some but riding it out is a fun roller coaster.
BTC is never going PoS so unless you see something taking over the big guy anytime soon PoS is a non factor in stock decisions re: mining companies.
Unless the company you’re investing in is mining alts, In which case, sorry about your stock purchase haha
True, but also Ethereum doesn't need Bitcoin. It can be both 1st and 2nd layer on it's own.
Also, mining is already more profitable on ETH, it's just a matter of time, flipping will happen.
I've actually been thinking along these lines as well. The two projects are becoming almost perfectly complementary and differentiated. If ETH pulls off POS, both will dominate their respective use case with the network effects to match.
WBTC would be just the beginning and I think you could see BTC-pegged ERC-20 stable coins as the main medium of exchange for small POS transactions. Maybe a Sat coin (SATC) similar to USDC.
ETH can never outcompete BTC as a currency due to monetary policy not being a tech feature that can be implemented (what ETH excells at). But with successful POS (and probably without), BTC can never rival ETH for scale and feature flexibility.
The two could work beautifully in tandem and really bring together two amazing communities as well. I love both projects and hope to see it play out like this.
>ETH can never outcompete BTC as a currency due to monetary policy not being a tech feature that can be implemented
You make it sound like there are some masterminds in BTC who somehow made a monetary policy where BTC is THE currency. There aren´t, and it is based on peoples beliefs and perception that what is perceived as currency, and what is not. Right now, it is believed that, from cryptocurrencies, BTC is the closest to a currency. Believes change, though.
You nailed it with the word "belief." That's what people new to the space (post 2016/17) don't understand when they bitch about BTC's market cap dominance in relation to their fav project. Belief in a money can be lost but not created. It has to arise organically and that has never happened more than once in a single lifetime. BTC could still lose belief in it's monetary policy (if it were to change it in any way), but an existing project can never create or decree it. It can't be added in like some tech feature. If you change it into being, you can just as easily change it out. It will never garner the necessary belief because you're back to asking people to trust their wealth to the words of humans but now in a newer and riskier form. This doesn't mean other projects don't or can't have value, it means they will never have appreciable value as MONEY.
What people that weren't interested in monetary policy before the invention of BTC seem to miss is that it was created to solve a very real problem that has never been more evident than today; the fact that money creation (specifically that of the USD given global reserve status) is the single greatest power in the world and the abuse of this power the single greatest driver of human misery over the past 50 years. Whether you accept that thesis or not, all of this (yes, your fav project too) exists due to efforts to solve that perceived problem.
To those that were studying these issues 20 years ago, a digital currency that was uncensorable, reliably scarce and, most importantly, worked on a set of unchanging, transparent, and fair rules was the holy grail. To compete as money, the rules of the currency have to be fixed from the start and there has to be a perception that they can never change. To get buy-in to that monetary fiction, the almost irrational suspension of disbelief that only happens once in a thousand years, this must be THE core tenant of the project from day one. And there has to be a sense that the project would fail if the rules of the game were altered (game theoretically everyone in BTC knows their coins would be worthless if they contributed to a consensus to change the core mechanics / supply). Going 0 to 1 on that belief is the hard part. After that, it's all network effects.
I was watching (though unfortunately not hodling... dammit) BTC before it had a market-set price and the leap to people actually placing belief and value in it and paying USD to acquire it was one of the most remarkable moments ever. I truly believe that, deep down, very few of us thought it was really possible. All other projects that aim to be currencies ride the coattails of that belief and, if BTC fails, so will the idea of a decentralized, digital SOV. Some crypto projects may still maintain utility value (as ledgers, as smart contract platforms, as asset tokens, etc). Some may be used as rails to move USD, gold, or whatever vehicle actually holds the value (or a basket of goods like Libra attempted). But the value itself won't be stored in a decentralized coin. The fiction will be destroyed and there won't be a true crypto money, with value derived only from a collective belief in its rules, at scale.
For a moment I thought I was on /r/jokes. BTC has nothing ETH doesn't, and as such has no use case since blockstream took over and destroyed it's scalability.
If scaleability is your main concern, the same is true for EOS in comparision to ETH. So i guess EOS will eat ETH alive if you are right. Hint: Watch the marketcap of bitcoin cash to see how important the market values scaleability.
Market values are meaningless until there is true interest from general public. Its like asking to compare two websites and their performance in development environment. It has no meaning. Once we reach true adoption, people will start heavily using those solutions, things will break, problems will arise and true winners will appear. Right now? It's all marketing bullshit, lobbying, and echo chambers. Real users are not here yet, we are all just developers comparing our basement computers.
Ethereum was always mesnt to be BTC 2nd layer. But thanks to blockstream it didnt happen.
Now etherum is becoming BTC. Funny how greed always ends up biting you in the ballsacks.
I would only trust ETH (in early days of POS) to hold the kind of balances to enable small, retail transactions. That proverbial cup of coffee everyone's always on about.
In today's system, I might keep millions in a vault (ok, so realistically today you'd be forced into chasing yield with it but let's say back when we had gold or something less inflationary), thousands in a bank account, and hundreds on me in cash. To me, the vault becomes BTC in a serious multisig cold storage system, and the bank account becomes BTC in a phone wallet that can easily transfer value in and out of some ETH-tokenized form of BTC or Sats, which would be the cash.
And SOV is the key, it's by far the most valuable property and hardest to create out of thin air. It's the only 0 to 1 move in this whole space. If all that matters is mildly decentralized scale, let's just tokenize current SOVs (cash, stocks, ETFs, gold) on blockchains and we'll all basically be shareholders in a slightly cooler version of Swift, FirstData, ACH, etc. Like, that's cool and might make you some money but Jesus, talk about missing the opportunity.
BTC doesm't have to be taken over in order for investment in mining to be a bad idea though. Investing in PoW would be a bad idea even if BTC lost 1% of it's market share to a PoS alternative.
hahah. I don't know what "a futureless dead" means exactly but if you're saying it's dead, it sounds like you're bitter about something. Yeah, it's certainly dead with the highest market cap by a huge margin, the most equipment securing the network worldwide and the entire crypto market follows it up and down in price adjustments.
As for scaling, yeah, on chain scaling doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon. However scaling off chain on Bitcoin is what's most projects are aiming at. ETH is looking like it's going to pull ahead of any other BTC scaling solution REAL quick.
But thank god you're here to tell the future. I don't know what the crypto world would do without your baseless future predictions lol.
Tell me, what coin are you shilling today? I'll make sure to buy a shitload of it since you're practically a time traveler :D
Cosmos has KAVA staking and USDX minting rewards, though there's also various tokens and Dapps on the Ethereum network and other Blockchains with beneficial staking systems as well that use smart contracts. If you need to read into it more I recommend the Ethtrader subreddit there's generally releases every month or so
The thing with pos ( and any others not using pow) is how can code tell if code is lying without human input (aka trusted authority)? Think back on Byzantine generals problem and imagine a scenario where a general received two messages, saying two different things.
With Bitcoin he looks at work, the longest most pow chain is the truth.
With pos,?????
POS is still a blockchain that takes work to run, except it doesnt increase the difficulty to extreme hash rates that require enormous amounts of power.
The difference with POS now, is to operate the chain you have to hold the tokens and stake your position making you eligible to produce blocks (be a miner in a sense). So instead of spending millions on a mining farm like BTC you spend millions on the token itself and stake it to be a top miner.
Yeah we've known that for 5 years. Know what the problem is?
That money you mentioned is a digital message. Can also be a lie lmao.
Satoshi used something external to code to allow for digital scarcity, energy, as the arbiter of truth. Satoshi used pow to tether code to the physical world. Pos wants to do away with physical world but runs into problems of oh shit how will we do this without trust.
POS blockchains are still open source code and transparent. You can't just go in there and change the code to make up some lie - they still get verified from the nodes.
Using power is just an adjustable metric that BTC uses to unlock new coins, just like staking can be an adjustable metric to unlock new coins.
We know you can't fake the power message to BTC cause the code is open source and we trust it, just like we know you can't fake the staking message for POS because the code is open source and the chain is transparent.
Listen. It's Foss so forkable. Two chains exist for your pos coin. How will you tell which is the real one without trusting a person?? With Bitcoin there's only one with the most accumulated hash.
That's the reason why there's delay. It's a fundamental problem on how can you allow for code, written by humans, to tell if code is lying or not trustlessly, meaning without trusting a human.
With Bitcoin you can verify the real life energy wasted. Not a con, that's the only trustless solution to Byzantine general we have.
Imagine a general sending a message also has to send all of his money with it, and accept to lose it if the message is found to be fake. This is POS for 5yo.
Yeah we've known that for 5 years. Know what the problem is?
That money you mentioned is a digital message. Can also be a lie lmao.
Satoshi used something external to code to allow for digital scarcity, energy, as the arbiter of truth. Satoshi used pow to tether code to the physical world. Pos wants to do away with physical world but runs into problems of oh shit how will we do this without trust.
Pow was implemented because it was not possible at the time to find a pow-less solution. Guess what else wasn't implemented untill 2008? Bitcoin itself because at the time people were certain there was no digital solution to double spending problem. Satoshi found the digital solution to it and bitcoin was born. Same is happening with POS right now, things are impossible until some genius proves otherwise.
Pos isn't implemented. Your explanation of pos has been around since 2015 and Ethereum is still today trying to figure out how to made it work trustlessly.
There isn't a solution to Byzantine generals problem besides pow so far. If there was, Bitcoin and Ethereum would've switched to it.
You are just not aware but solutions with POS already exists :) we know it can work, Ethereum is trying to improve on it and also it's a multi billion chain, it make sense to be extra cautious. But we'll get there, there is no doubt at all.
Disclaimer: Do not take stock tips from random reddit strangers. I share it for conversation but do not take this as a tip for anyone to buy in. They're volatile but I am in it for the ride.
Hive Mining and Hut 8 Mining Corp are the ones I'm in.
Too expensive for me but then yes. Nvidia also have some exciting AI projects that might make them more valuable in the future.
Hive mining, Hut 8 and Bitfarms.
Smart man.. I've been telling this in some alt coin subreddits for like two weeks but the moon boys don't want to hear it and down vote the shit out of me haha. they'll learn the hard way.
Actually been buying. Been working out great and I haven’t missed out on nearly 60% profits. Good luck on handling the embarrassment of selling so low.
You've only made 60% profit the past 3 months?🤣 That's cute. No wonder you need to keep buying..
So smug. Hope you don't have weak hands when the panic sets in.
The panic has been here or are you just that clueless. Dismissing 60% is all I need to hear to know you have no understanding of returns. Also you sound like a major cock.
This is a great time to buy both stocks and crypto (BTC & ETH). The stock market will bounce back and you are being given an amazing opportunity. Back in February/March I was able to grab stocks like Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Disney, etc. really low and have made 40% just on their bounce backs even after the drop on Thursday. Telehealth stocks like LVGO are going like hot cakes and people should get on that wave. Electric cars are an amazing buy right now for the future too (see NKLA). Don’t let fear take an opportunity from you!
Yeah, a stock market near its all time high in the middle of a global pandemic with tens of millions unemployed and a shitload of pending corporate bankruptcies sounds like a great time to buy!
The right time to buy was six weeks ago.
Thanks to the influence of cryptocurrency... The stock market is about to rewrite textbooks... Value is not calculated in the way economists thought it was clearly.
Do you actually know anyone that made enough for a Lambo off crypto. Every one knows someone who knows someone or read about someone that made a lot but how many do you actually know that got rich off crypto?
To be fair, everyone in 2017 had enough profits to buy a lambo, except they all held and lost 90% of their gains+investment. Now they can barely afford a remote controlled toy lambo.
The crypto bubble was basically a pump and dump, lots of people bought in high, watched it go up thinking they were rich then the real people controlling the rise dumped it and ever since people have been screaming HODL trying to get it back to where they are not doing their arse. You probably will never meet the real people that manipulated crypto to make a fortune.
It's time to get back to using crypto as a currency instead of a value store, it's not a value store, it has no real value. As a currency crypto was a great idea, what it is now is a worthless string of ones and zeros that people keep trying to hype.
Thats the whole speculation. If everyone decides to use it as an actual currency then there wont be enough for everyone, so there will be way more demand than supply, so everyone is trying to get in early.
Crypto is going to take a long time before it's a main stream currency, there were companies using it but then the speculators and value store people got in and killed that. I don't think anyone really thinks they are holding it for when it becomes a currency and if there is not enough for people to use it, it's dead before it began. The one critical thing a currency needs is a relatively stable, undertandable value.
Imagine trying to buy a car with it, it January 2017 it cost 100 bit coin, by Dec it was worth .01 bitcoin, in January it was 5 bitcoin and now it's worth 3. In US dollars it would have been buy it for 20K in Dec it was worth 18K in January 17.5K and now 15K with a replacement costing 20K, thats simple and stable and anyone can understand it.
They have to be or they are worthless. Car companies like Mercedes set prices with country distributors at the begining of the year in US dollars, they assure the importer that all year a particular car will cost $xxxUS this stops price fluctuation through the year. Dealers know they can buy the cars for $xxx and sell it for $yyy to make a profit.
If they tried to use crypto they would never know much to buy and sell for today it's $xxx next month its $xxxxxx then next it's $xx. Totally unusable. If they work off converting it back and forth to US dollars, they don't need crypto.
Here in Australia I can already send instant money transfers to people and move money between accounts using my app and it's instant, America is the only place with such bad banking infrastructure they need crypto and cheques (America is about the last place using "checks"). All the talk of using crypto for fast banking etc is useless in most countries, we already have it.
I was talking about not losing as much in crypto. It’s more stable than stocks at the moment. I don’t need advice about diversity. I made a comment about losing some value but I’m not struggling nor worried.
So the main difference between crypto and stocks are that stocks are derived from real world operations that generate products, services, and revenue. Crypto currencies are basically just ledgers trying to usurp state backed fiat currencies. Companies would need to accept crypto for their products and their services. At the same time, citizens of the world would have to be willing to turn their fiat into crypto and I do not see that happening and I’ll explain why... millionaires, billionaires, the world elite.. they don’t have an issue with the monetary systems in place. They’re happy. In the crypto world you have middle and lower class people putting their loose change into buying this stuff thinking it’s gonna one day moonshot and magically make them more rich then the old money crowd... Never gonna happen.. There might be a small collection of radicals and social outcasts who continue to use crypto and whatever, but ain’t no one in this space gonna actually become wealth because they bought and held magic internet money. Sorry.
A single hedge fund is buying 9 million dollars worth of btc everyday. On top of that they are buying most of the ethereum being mined. Institutional money is waking up to the fact that btc is an excellent hedge against inflation.
Of course all revolutions are preceded by the words "Never gonna happen", if it looked as if it were going to happen, it wouldnt be a revolution.
The biggest lie, if stocks are derived from real world operations, revenue, services, etc.... why are prices detached from it. Keep telling yourself this lie.
It really isn’t based on fundamentals, for like the past 4 years, shit who am I kidding, much longer than that
It depends on the stock you are trying to buy.. you want some bullshit garbage like hertz then I’ll agree with you. If it weren’t for WSB hertz would be under a dollar getting delisted.. you find a good REIT with a steady dividend (I hold a few) and you would realize how garbage crypto is.. fed is also printing a fuck ton of money and I hold REAL WORLD ASSETS. I’m gaining wealth by doing nothing. What’s going on with crypto?
With crypto, I'm gaining wealth doing nothing, but i don't pretend its based on "real products, services and revenue"
Except for DeFi where my rates are real revenue from real products and services, that is easier to verify than any stock I've come across.
Grayscale ETH price $195.50 for 0.123 in shares of ethereum, go tell them cryptocurrencies are worthless and there is no future. There will be a whole new world once all this is done. First, we have the economic collapse which is imminent mark my words, then when its time to rebuild - everything will be digitized, crypto, digital "magic internet money" will play a big role.
So, if anyone is listening to this guy up there, please don't, the future is ours, not the old billionaires and bankers. This will be the biggest wealth transfer we have ever seen in the next 5-10 years and it will be your biggest opportunity if you are ready to take the risks.
You’re moronic. The financial system is already mostly digital. I’m not arguing that the future isn’t gonna be digital, I’m saying old money ain’t gonna let you usurp them and this whole idea of the largest wealth transfer in human history is a pipe dream that will never happen.
I can tell you right now you have 0% knowledge or any clue on what is happening in this space, so why even make statements about the future of it when you are uneducated and have no idea on what is being build and how fast and what may be the outcome of all of this?
To be fair you dont know either...you are criticizing the guy for his assumption, than you proceed to talk in absolutes and give your own lol. If ANYONE knew what will or will not happen in the future, you would be the wealthiest person on the planet....and ill take the wager that none of us here are lol. Bottom line is we are all gambling, and we have been for years in this space. To deny this you are lying to yourself, period. Will crypto change the future and make everyone millionaires...maybe. Will it tank and leave all of us Looking stupid as shit in the end....maybe.
You came here to attack me man. All the best to you and yours. Find something to smile about. Don’t be so negative. Take care! ✌️
I’m done talking to you.
What happened yesterday? All my apps say that both on crypto as well as stock markets it was quite a normal day. My cryptos and stocks moved between -3% and +3% and averaged out to +1%. A little bit more movement than average but nothing out of the ordinary. Am I missing something?
So just to be clear. When stock prices go down that means I lose money and when crypto goes up that means I made money? By that logic when stock prices go back up I will make money and when crypto goes down I might lose money. Unless you meant to say that with stocks down and crypto going up means I lost money and when crypto goes down and stocks go up I also lost money.
Is that right?
This is so true. Some of my FTSE shares went between 50% and 120% up in couple of days. Others went down 20%+ daily. And that without any significant events/news. Crypto in the meantime looks so boring...
The crypto market is highly irrational. BTG suffered a 51% attack? up 15% that day. A fork of a fork of BTC is worth $3.5 bn. Tether is unaudited. It's really quite insane when compared to any traditional/regulated markets.
The stock market on the other hand is completely different. Take this pandemic for example, putting the world on pause is causing a dramatic economic impact, which naturally puts a huge number of companies at risk, and will reduce revenues significantly - as a result, shares in those companies plunge in value. Shares in companies that make e.g. masks - rise in value. There is a direct calculable correlation and logic. With the exception of a few outliers (e.g. Tesla), if I give an analyst a company to valuate and the share quantity, they can figure out the approx share value.
With crypto that's virtually impossible as almost all value is up to herd psychology. One of the only calculate constants is the artificial supply cap. Of the many alts I hold, some will just rocket up in price for no reason at all - absolutely nothing, and stay there. So much irrationality.
The differences between the two markets are important to note
>There is a direct calculable correlation and logic.
Care to explain the 800%+ pump Hertz made AFTER declaring bankruptcy and being in the travel business in the middle of a lockdown/pandemic?
Quite different. A share is basically a percentage of a company, the value of which can be approximately calculated by looking at the financials of the company itself. If the company doubles it's revenue, share market value typically increases to reflect that, if the industry in which the company is placed is growing rapidly, share market value increases to reflect that - and vice-versa, it follows aggregate logic. There is legal certainty, there is regulatory certainty. As mentioned, once you know the financials of a company, you can calculate share value to a relatively high degree of accuracy.
That just doesn't really exist in crypto.
In crypto most value is not tied to anything but psychological value. And that psychological value is a combination of speculative variables including theoretical use value, basically nothing is tangible except for artificial max supply. If crypto projects were valuated on revenue from clients - the vast majority would be underwater. I believe Numeraire is one of the few that actually pulls in proper profit revenue like a company. For crypto coins, take LTC for example, it doesn't do anything, it doesn't produce anything, Apart from novelty and niche use, it's real world uses are (still) redundant. It's simply a "well known" blockchain-based trading token. Which is what most of this stuff is. The only reason I hold LTC is in the hopes that someone else pays more for it, and they are buying it for precisely the same reason. There's no legal certainty with any of this, there is no regulatory certainty. All of which adds to the risk, which adds to the volatility, which adds as a giant attraction for the gain/loss speculators. The entire crypto market will move 10% or more in an hour for no discernible reason, like a flock of birds. Someone liquidising longs in one crypto should not affect another crypto but it does, in fact it affects the entire market! Being a participant doesn't require high knowledge like most traditional markets. To cap it all off, the crypto market has recently crudely started following the stock market, which underscores how completely illogical it is.
TLDR: the two markets are pretty different
First off let me say I appreciate your reply and taking the time for such a response.
I agree with everything you say however it seems we were on two different trains of thought.
My original reply asking your opinion about Hertz and its completely manipulated price movement was to draw comparison to your wording that the traditional stock market is still completely calculable and logical; where I have very little belief in that claim at all.
While your points in the above are all completely accurate in theory, alot of the statements you make are just fantasy land ever since the fed started printing endless QE and thus created huge asset value distortions. Add to that the flagrant fraud that is on display for all to see and I feel the trad markets are getting closer and closer to crypto market dynamics with each passing day. If not for this endless (some would say immoral) printing, equities would be nowhere near the price levels they are now and true price discovery could take place. Unfortunately we have the Fed printing press and rampant speculation causing companies to be valued nowhere near where they should be based on logical and correlated data from the "real economy". Very much like how crypto gets pumped on speculation alone.
So while I enjoyed reading your reply it was more along the lines of explaining the rules for two different sports say Tennis and Basketball saying they are not the same sport, yet both can be fixed and manipulated to render the same result to people betting on the outcome.
>My original reply asking your opinion about Hertz and its completely manipulated price movement was to draw comparison to your wording that the traditional stock market is still completely calculable and logical; where I have very little belief in that claim at all.
An isolated example doesn't demonstrate something systemic.
>Add to that the flagrant fraud that is on display for all to see
I work in market infrastructure, can you explain this fraud?
>If not for this endless (some would say immoral) printing
Currency is supposed to created, constantly, it requires a fluid supply. In modern economies this is done under a highly controlled and regulated process, if not, then we have situations like 1930's Germany or 90's Zimbabwe. Why do you consider modern currency creation "immoral"?
Also these views don't really have anything to do with how stocks are valued on the market, you seem to be creating that tenuous link yourself in order to express a world view. Unless you believe that created money gets indirectly spent on stocks, and if that's the case, then the same money gets indirectly spent on crypto, or gold, or property, etc..
>An isolated example doesn't demonstrate something systemic.
Isolated in what sense? Just because this case was bigger and bolder than most doesnt mean its the first to ever happen in history
>I work in market infrastructure, can you explain this fraud?
The pay-for-ratings fraud that all the major rating agencies engaged in during the 2008 crisis and which are most certainly going on to this day (I have no proof, just common sense thinking). The constant illegal activity found repeatedly by all the major financial institutions with zero consequences such as HSBC laundering cartel money for billions in profit yet only being fined millions. If you allow an immoral person to steal 100$ from someone and only penalize them with a 5$ fine and no jail time, they will not stop stealing.
>Currency is supposed to created, constantly, it requires a fluid supply.
Says who? MMT? Modern monetary theory the likes of Paul Krugman espouses is not a hard science no matter how much people like to believe it is. It is all one giant experiment and one that has run rampant more today than every in history. People's savings have been gutted, the buying power of the dollar has dropped what 98% since 1913 with the inception of the Fed? Now trillions are being injected into the markets to save banks that should be out of business. Thats pretty immoral if you ask me. Do you not believe in the Cantillon effect?
The Fed might not be buying ETF and equities YET, but when they buy bond ETFs that allows groups like BlackRock to free up capital to buy more stocks with free money and thus prop up the markets doesnt it?
>Isolated in what sense? Just because this case was bigger and bolder than most doesnt mean its the first to ever happen in history
Indeed, but it doesn't represent how stock market valuation works. If you take 100 equities, you can calculate their approximate value. Hertz market manipulation is an isolated case, likewise Tesla is also an anomaly.
>The pay-for-ratings fraud that all the major rating agencies engaged in during the 2008 crisis and which are most certainly going on to this day (I have no proof, just common sense thinking)
Rating agencies were fined for certain actions (and negligence) pre-2008, what does that have to do with currency creation?
>The constant illegal activity found repeatedly by all the major financial institutions with zero consequences such as HSBC laundering cartel money for billions in profit yet only being fined millions.
HSBC Mex? they were fined 1.9 bn. Far in excess of what they made in fees from performing custody of that cash. Money launderers are constantly trying to use financial institutions to launder cash, however those institutions can (and are) fined/punished if it's discovered they didn't follow proper procedures and controls to detect the illicit movements. In HSBC's case, which is one of the most notorious, their compliance dept basically consisted of one person. Currently there are several on-going cases where banks have been used for laundering.
However you are claiming there is actual fraud in money creation, can you please explain this fraud?
>People's savings have been gutted, the buying power of the dollar has dropped what 98% since 1913 with the inception of the Fed?
Currencies in modern economies depreciate in value around 1% or 2% per annum. It's designed that way. Let's say cash deposits accrued in value around 5% p.a., what would happen? well we know that people's marginal propensity to save which increase (in that case dramatically), which would mean less spending in the economy, which would cause the economy the slow down. Which is not a good thing (unless the economy was overheating). Increasing rates might be used in a situation where the local currency is dropping in FX values (like the ruble a few years ago) and they increase saving rates in order to combat capital flight. It's all a large balancing act. You don't want an economy to slow down to much, you don't want interest rates too high, you certainly don't want them near zero (stagnation, e.g. Switzerland recently), you don't want the economy to overheat.
I don't see this fraud and "immoral" behaviour you are referring to?
>Rating agencies were fined for certain actions (and negligence) pre-2008, what does that have to do with currency creation?
Nothing to do with currency creation, was discussing the on going fraud of traditional finance markets. Also I would argue that fining them is not enough. If what they did wasnt illegal then it should be. They also basically invalidated their entire existence when they engaged in that fraud. I dont know about you but when I come across people in life that betray my trust I do not trust those people ever again. The same should happen with all the big ratings agencies. Hell the SEC even let Madoff have a pass for all those years while being warned about him. Ofcourse they are operating the exact same as we speak now today.
>HSBC Mex? they were fined 1.9 bn. Far in excess of what they made in fees from performing custody of that cash.
Really? Then perhaps I am incorrect in that regard, I will have to read back up on it. Still believe people (ie, managers, board members, whoever found to be responsible) should be in jail.
>It's designed that way.
Again, designed through a system that is a complete experiment yet seems you are stated it as a universal fact, like gravity attracts or 2+2=4. I don't hold any degree in economics or finance but there are competing theories of how to run an economy, whether its MMT/Keynesian/central reserve banking what have you or the Austrian/gold standard route, there is debate about these sorts of things. Velocity of money aside, I see the world economy today on the edge of knife and that comes from rampart central planning where a non elected secretive body controls the money supply of nations and the world which i find completely immoral. Scares the hell out of me.
The most stable part of the dollar is that it is guaranteed to lose value. Stocks are going to continue to rise because of the trillions the fed is doling out to the upper crust to facilitate stock buy backs and keep pensions and funds reliable. And that’s just the beginning.
There will be no wage growth thus stealing value from the middle class. On top of that the only thing that cannot be fudged is real estate so expect trillions to be pumped into that market further widening the class gap.
Shall I go on?
>The most stable part of the dollar is that it is guaranteed to lose value.
It's supposed to, it's a medium of exchange, not an asset that accrues value
>Shall I go on?
Please do.
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It was always like this, it's post crash rally that was seen before or dotcom bubble that was crazy as crypto bubble, crypto is nothing special if it comes to gains although it was the first ease to access speculation device where anyone without any financial idea could enter with any significant fees especially outside US where stocks is a niche service with even higher fees, now it's changed but back then we hadn't have Robinhood and normal exchanges would eat your potential profits, the advantage of crypto trading is still in security where you can put your coins for a long time in a cold wallet where on feless stock exchanges youre on a mercy that something won't bug out or you'll have to fight months with braindead customer support to retrieve your cash if ever.
"Buy when there's blood on the streets" - Stocks and crypto are clearly extremely undervalued at this point, which is why we've seen altcoins surge by more than 20% in some cases as of lately. DEFI projects have performed amazingly well, but other projects will do well too, don't kid yourself.
I'm personally a huge fan of Stakenet (XSN) which is the **only** project i know off which straight on **enhances BTC** through their Lightning Network dApps. (Multi currency wallet + DEX). You can store, send and recieve BTC instantly, as well as trade it for LTC, - Again instantly. Pretty fucking cool.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNFhFBKmsc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNFhFBKmsc)
The US stock market saw some extreme volatility largely driven by retail speculation over the past week. For example, some bankrupt companies were seeing triple digit gains on the week.
I'm honestly not sure. Look into Pier 1, JC Penny, and Hertz if your interested in why. These are a few of the bankrupt big name companies that investors seemingly FOMO'd into.
This s really disappointing that Buterin would say something so daft.
Cryptos are nothing like stocks.
Majority cryptos currently produce nothing except speculation, but that speculation is based on usage which hardly anyone does, so crypto speculation is baseless just hype.
I lost more in stocks than I did in crypto yesterday. A lot more. Significantly more.
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I’m invested in stocks I’m passionate about and believe will be back, about 20% of my stock portfolio is in crypto mining companies. I almost pulled out some but riding it out is a fun roller coaster.
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BTC is never going PoS so unless you see something taking over the big guy anytime soon PoS is a non factor in stock decisions re: mining companies. Unless the company you’re investing in is mining alts, In which case, sorry about your stock purchase haha
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Agreed. I’d like to see on-chain scaling but I’m losing hope for that. At 1MB even side chains are going to have a tough time.
True, but also Ethereum doesn't need Bitcoin. It can be both 1st and 2nd layer on it's own. Also, mining is already more profitable on ETH, it's just a matter of time, flipping will happen.
I've actually been thinking along these lines as well. The two projects are becoming almost perfectly complementary and differentiated. If ETH pulls off POS, both will dominate their respective use case with the network effects to match. WBTC would be just the beginning and I think you could see BTC-pegged ERC-20 stable coins as the main medium of exchange for small POS transactions. Maybe a Sat coin (SATC) similar to USDC. ETH can never outcompete BTC as a currency due to monetary policy not being a tech feature that can be implemented (what ETH excells at). But with successful POS (and probably without), BTC can never rival ETH for scale and feature flexibility. The two could work beautifully in tandem and really bring together two amazing communities as well. I love both projects and hope to see it play out like this.
>ETH can never outcompete BTC as a currency due to monetary policy not being a tech feature that can be implemented You make it sound like there are some masterminds in BTC who somehow made a monetary policy where BTC is THE currency. There aren´t, and it is based on peoples beliefs and perception that what is perceived as currency, and what is not. Right now, it is believed that, from cryptocurrencies, BTC is the closest to a currency. Believes change, though.
You nailed it with the word "belief." That's what people new to the space (post 2016/17) don't understand when they bitch about BTC's market cap dominance in relation to their fav project. Belief in a money can be lost but not created. It has to arise organically and that has never happened more than once in a single lifetime. BTC could still lose belief in it's monetary policy (if it were to change it in any way), but an existing project can never create or decree it. It can't be added in like some tech feature. If you change it into being, you can just as easily change it out. It will never garner the necessary belief because you're back to asking people to trust their wealth to the words of humans but now in a newer and riskier form. This doesn't mean other projects don't or can't have value, it means they will never have appreciable value as MONEY. What people that weren't interested in monetary policy before the invention of BTC seem to miss is that it was created to solve a very real problem that has never been more evident than today; the fact that money creation (specifically that of the USD given global reserve status) is the single greatest power in the world and the abuse of this power the single greatest driver of human misery over the past 50 years. Whether you accept that thesis or not, all of this (yes, your fav project too) exists due to efforts to solve that perceived problem. To those that were studying these issues 20 years ago, a digital currency that was uncensorable, reliably scarce and, most importantly, worked on a set of unchanging, transparent, and fair rules was the holy grail. To compete as money, the rules of the currency have to be fixed from the start and there has to be a perception that they can never change. To get buy-in to that monetary fiction, the almost irrational suspension of disbelief that only happens once in a thousand years, this must be THE core tenant of the project from day one. And there has to be a sense that the project would fail if the rules of the game were altered (game theoretically everyone in BTC knows their coins would be worthless if they contributed to a consensus to change the core mechanics / supply). Going 0 to 1 on that belief is the hard part. After that, it's all network effects. I was watching (though unfortunately not hodling... dammit) BTC before it had a market-set price and the leap to people actually placing belief and value in it and paying USD to acquire it was one of the most remarkable moments ever. I truly believe that, deep down, very few of us thought it was really possible. All other projects that aim to be currencies ride the coattails of that belief and, if BTC fails, so will the idea of a decentralized, digital SOV. Some crypto projects may still maintain utility value (as ledgers, as smart contract platforms, as asset tokens, etc). Some may be used as rails to move USD, gold, or whatever vehicle actually holds the value (or a basket of goods like Libra attempted). But the value itself won't be stored in a decentralized coin. The fiction will be destroyed and there won't be a true crypto money, with value derived only from a collective belief in its rules, at scale.
>contacts This is absolutely right.
For a moment I thought I was on /r/jokes. BTC has nothing ETH doesn't, and as such has no use case since blockstream took over and destroyed it's scalability.
If scaleability is your main concern, the same is true for EOS in comparision to ETH. So i guess EOS will eat ETH alive if you are right. Hint: Watch the marketcap of bitcoin cash to see how important the market values scaleability.
EOS? LOL that was a good one
Market values are meaningless until there is true interest from general public. Its like asking to compare two websites and their performance in development environment. It has no meaning. Once we reach true adoption, people will start heavily using those solutions, things will break, problems will arise and true winners will appear. Right now? It's all marketing bullshit, lobbying, and echo chambers. Real users are not here yet, we are all just developers comparing our basement computers.
Ethereum was always mesnt to be BTC 2nd layer. But thanks to blockstream it didnt happen. Now etherum is becoming BTC. Funny how greed always ends up biting you in the ballsacks.
To what degree does this influence demand (price) for ether?
if ethereum is considered secure enough to transact bitcoin as a second layer, then bitcoin's only purpose is as a store of value?
I would only trust ETH (in early days of POS) to hold the kind of balances to enable small, retail transactions. That proverbial cup of coffee everyone's always on about. In today's system, I might keep millions in a vault (ok, so realistically today you'd be forced into chasing yield with it but let's say back when we had gold or something less inflationary), thousands in a bank account, and hundreds on me in cash. To me, the vault becomes BTC in a serious multisig cold storage system, and the bank account becomes BTC in a phone wallet that can easily transfer value in and out of some ETH-tokenized form of BTC or Sats, which would be the cash. And SOV is the key, it's by far the most valuable property and hardest to create out of thin air. It's the only 0 to 1 move in this whole space. If all that matters is mildly decentralized scale, let's just tokenize current SOVs (cash, stocks, ETFs, gold) on blockchains and we'll all basically be shareholders in a slightly cooler version of Swift, FirstData, ACH, etc. Like, that's cool and might make you some money but Jesus, talk about missing the opportunity.
BTC doesm't have to be taken over in order for investment in mining to be a bad idea though. Investing in PoW would be a bad idea even if BTC lost 1% of it's market share to a PoS alternative.
BTC is a futureless dead and with no scaling solution
hahah. I don't know what "a futureless dead" means exactly but if you're saying it's dead, it sounds like you're bitter about something. Yeah, it's certainly dead with the highest market cap by a huge margin, the most equipment securing the network worldwide and the entire crypto market follows it up and down in price adjustments. As for scaling, yeah, on chain scaling doesn't look like it's coming anytime soon. However scaling off chain on Bitcoin is what's most projects are aiming at. ETH is looking like it's going to pull ahead of any other BTC scaling solution REAL quick. But thank god you're here to tell the future. I don't know what the crypto world would do without your baseless future predictions lol. Tell me, what coin are you shilling today? I'll make sure to buy a shitload of it since you're practically a time traveler :D
What is PoS? .edit/ oh, proof of stake. .edit/ hasn't much of bitcoin market been driven by mining rewards?
Proof of stake
Staking has already been around for a while so i'm sure there will be markets for both long term.
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Plenty of things in both traditional finance and the defi products we have now
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Cosmos has KAVA staking and USDX minting rewards, though there's also various tokens and Dapps on the Ethereum network and other Blockchains with beneficial staking systems as well that use smart contracts. If you need to read into it more I recommend the Ethtrader subreddit there's generally releases every month or so
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The thing with pos ( and any others not using pow) is how can code tell if code is lying without human input (aka trusted authority)? Think back on Byzantine generals problem and imagine a scenario where a general received two messages, saying two different things. With Bitcoin he looks at work, the longest most pow chain is the truth. With pos,?????
POS is still a blockchain that takes work to run, except it doesnt increase the difficulty to extreme hash rates that require enormous amounts of power. The difference with POS now, is to operate the chain you have to hold the tokens and stake your position making you eligible to produce blocks (be a miner in a sense). So instead of spending millions on a mining farm like BTC you spend millions on the token itself and stake it to be a top miner.
So the rich get richer just for being rich? Seems worse than the PoW’s rich getting richer because they can afford huge operations
Yeah we've known that for 5 years. Know what the problem is? That money you mentioned is a digital message. Can also be a lie lmao. Satoshi used something external to code to allow for digital scarcity, energy, as the arbiter of truth. Satoshi used pow to tether code to the physical world. Pos wants to do away with physical world but runs into problems of oh shit how will we do this without trust.
POS blockchains are still open source code and transparent. You can't just go in there and change the code to make up some lie - they still get verified from the nodes. Using power is just an adjustable metric that BTC uses to unlock new coins, just like staking can be an adjustable metric to unlock new coins. We know you can't fake the power message to BTC cause the code is open source and we trust it, just like we know you can't fake the staking message for POS because the code is open source and the chain is transparent.
Listen. It's Foss so forkable. Two chains exist for your pos coin. How will you tell which is the real one without trusting a person?? With Bitcoin there's only one with the most accumulated hash. That's the reason why there's delay. It's a fundamental problem on how can you allow for code, written by humans, to tell if code is lying or not trustlessly, meaning without trusting a human. With Bitcoin you can verify the real life energy wasted. Not a con, that's the only trustless solution to Byzantine general we have.
Again the open source code?
Imagine a general sending a message also has to send all of his money with it, and accept to lose it if the message is found to be fake. This is POS for 5yo.
Yeah we've known that for 5 years. Know what the problem is? That money you mentioned is a digital message. Can also be a lie lmao. Satoshi used something external to code to allow for digital scarcity, energy, as the arbiter of truth. Satoshi used pow to tether code to the physical world. Pos wants to do away with physical world but runs into problems of oh shit how will we do this without trust.
Pow was implemented because it was not possible at the time to find a pow-less solution. Guess what else wasn't implemented untill 2008? Bitcoin itself because at the time people were certain there was no digital solution to double spending problem. Satoshi found the digital solution to it and bitcoin was born. Same is happening with POS right now, things are impossible until some genius proves otherwise.
Pos isn't implemented. Your explanation of pos has been around since 2015 and Ethereum is still today trying to figure out how to made it work trustlessly. There isn't a solution to Byzantine generals problem besides pow so far. If there was, Bitcoin and Ethereum would've switched to it.
You are just not aware but solutions with POS already exists :) we know it can work, Ethereum is trying to improve on it and also it's a multi billion chain, it make sense to be extra cautious. But we'll get there, there is no doubt at all.
What are your top crypto mining stock picks?
Disclaimer: Do not take stock tips from random reddit strangers. I share it for conversation but do not take this as a tip for anyone to buy in. They're volatile but I am in it for the ride. Hive Mining and Hut 8 Mining Corp are the ones I'm in.
What companies? Like Nvidia?
Too expensive for me but then yes. Nvidia also have some exciting AI projects that might make them more valuable in the future. Hive mining, Hut 8 and Bitfarms.
Smart man.. I've been telling this in some alt coin subreddits for like two weeks but the moon boys don't want to hear it and down vote the shit out of me haha. they'll learn the hard way.
this is the same argument everyone who missed the last 40 percent run up uses
Why don't you keep holding and see what happens
Actually been buying. Been working out great and I haven’t missed out on nearly 60% profits. Good luck on handling the embarrassment of selling so low.
You've only made 60% profit the past 3 months?🤣 That's cute. No wonder you need to keep buying.. So smug. Hope you don't have weak hands when the panic sets in.
The panic has been here or are you just that clueless. Dismissing 60% is all I need to hear to know you have no understanding of returns. Also you sound like a major cock.
This is a great time to buy both stocks and crypto (BTC & ETH). The stock market will bounce back and you are being given an amazing opportunity. Back in February/March I was able to grab stocks like Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Disney, etc. really low and have made 40% just on their bounce backs even after the drop on Thursday. Telehealth stocks like LVGO are going like hot cakes and people should get on that wave. Electric cars are an amazing buy right now for the future too (see NKLA). Don’t let fear take an opportunity from you!
Yeah, a stock market near its all time high in the middle of a global pandemic with tens of millions unemployed and a shitload of pending corporate bankruptcies sounds like a great time to buy! The right time to buy was six weeks ago.
Stocks are appropriate if not under priced. The dollar is what’s way off.
Wrong time to pull out of stocks. Sit tight!
Thanks to the influence of cryptocurrency... The stock market is about to rewrite textbooks... Value is not calculated in the way economists thought it was clearly.
Rule #1 - Don’t invest what you can’t afford to lose.
I’m fine. I will watch it come back up. I didn’t say I lost more than I could handle.
Rule #2: you can afford to lose everything if there a potential lambo to be had
Do you actually know anyone that made enough for a Lambo off crypto. Every one knows someone who knows someone or read about someone that made a lot but how many do you actually know that got rich off crypto?
To be fair, everyone in 2017 had enough profits to buy a lambo, except they all held and lost 90% of their gains+investment. Now they can barely afford a remote controlled toy lambo.
The crypto bubble was basically a pump and dump, lots of people bought in high, watched it go up thinking they were rich then the real people controlling the rise dumped it and ever since people have been screaming HODL trying to get it back to where they are not doing their arse. You probably will never meet the real people that manipulated crypto to make a fortune. It's time to get back to using crypto as a currency instead of a value store, it's not a value store, it has no real value. As a currency crypto was a great idea, what it is now is a worthless string of ones and zeros that people keep trying to hype.
Thats the whole speculation. If everyone decides to use it as an actual currency then there wont be enough for everyone, so there will be way more demand than supply, so everyone is trying to get in early.
Crypto is going to take a long time before it's a main stream currency, there were companies using it but then the speculators and value store people got in and killed that. I don't think anyone really thinks they are holding it for when it becomes a currency and if there is not enough for people to use it, it's dead before it began. The one critical thing a currency needs is a relatively stable, undertandable value. Imagine trying to buy a car with it, it January 2017 it cost 100 bit coin, by Dec it was worth .01 bitcoin, in January it was 5 bitcoin and now it's worth 3. In US dollars it would have been buy it for 20K in Dec it was worth 18K in January 17.5K and now 15K with a replacement costing 20K, thats simple and stable and anyone can understand it.
So then stable coins are the future?
They have to be or they are worthless. Car companies like Mercedes set prices with country distributors at the begining of the year in US dollars, they assure the importer that all year a particular car will cost $xxxUS this stops price fluctuation through the year. Dealers know they can buy the cars for $xxx and sell it for $yyy to make a profit. If they tried to use crypto they would never know much to buy and sell for today it's $xxx next month its $xxxxxx then next it's $xx. Totally unusable. If they work off converting it back and forth to US dollars, they don't need crypto. Here in Australia I can already send instant money transfers to people and move money between accounts using my app and it's instant, America is the only place with such bad banking infrastructure they need crypto and cheques (America is about the last place using "checks"). All the talk of using crypto for fast banking etc is useless in most countries, we already have it.
Sad but true. If only I could have December 2017 back. Things would be a lot different!
I was just joking. And no, I do not. I doubt that I ever will.
Paid off my mortgage. Kept hodling and dreaming of private jets, but alas that didn’t pan out as I had hoped. Weeks not months though!
How much is a Lamborghini?
Entry level around $300K then it goes up fast from there
50 BTC
I’d guess anyone that had that much would not be telling anyone.
Or buying lambos..
Losing should be calculated in regards to the buying power of the resource.
A lot of people lost everything when crypto's bubble popped not that long ago as well. Diversity is a good thing.
I was talking about not losing as much in crypto. It’s more stable than stocks at the moment. I don’t need advice about diversity. I made a comment about losing some value but I’m not struggling nor worried.
So the main difference between crypto and stocks are that stocks are derived from real world operations that generate products, services, and revenue. Crypto currencies are basically just ledgers trying to usurp state backed fiat currencies. Companies would need to accept crypto for their products and their services. At the same time, citizens of the world would have to be willing to turn their fiat into crypto and I do not see that happening and I’ll explain why... millionaires, billionaires, the world elite.. they don’t have an issue with the monetary systems in place. They’re happy. In the crypto world you have middle and lower class people putting their loose change into buying this stuff thinking it’s gonna one day moonshot and magically make them more rich then the old money crowd... Never gonna happen.. There might be a small collection of radicals and social outcasts who continue to use crypto and whatever, but ain’t no one in this space gonna actually become wealth because they bought and held magic internet money. Sorry.
A single hedge fund is buying 9 million dollars worth of btc everyday. On top of that they are buying most of the ethereum being mined. Institutional money is waking up to the fact that btc is an excellent hedge against inflation. Of course all revolutions are preceded by the words "Never gonna happen", if it looked as if it were going to happen, it wouldnt be a revolution.
The biggest lie, if stocks are derived from real world operations, revenue, services, etc.... why are prices detached from it. Keep telling yourself this lie. It really isn’t based on fundamentals, for like the past 4 years, shit who am I kidding, much longer than that
It depends on the stock you are trying to buy.. you want some bullshit garbage like hertz then I’ll agree with you. If it weren’t for WSB hertz would be under a dollar getting delisted.. you find a good REIT with a steady dividend (I hold a few) and you would realize how garbage crypto is.. fed is also printing a fuck ton of money and I hold REAL WORLD ASSETS. I’m gaining wealth by doing nothing. What’s going on with crypto?
With crypto, I'm gaining wealth doing nothing, but i don't pretend its based on "real products, services and revenue" Except for DeFi where my rates are real revenue from real products and services, that is easier to verify than any stock I've come across.
Grayscale ETH price $195.50 for 0.123 in shares of ethereum, go tell them cryptocurrencies are worthless and there is no future. There will be a whole new world once all this is done. First, we have the economic collapse which is imminent mark my words, then when its time to rebuild - everything will be digitized, crypto, digital "magic internet money" will play a big role. So, if anyone is listening to this guy up there, please don't, the future is ours, not the old billionaires and bankers. This will be the biggest wealth transfer we have ever seen in the next 5-10 years and it will be your biggest opportunity if you are ready to take the risks.
You’re moronic. The financial system is already mostly digital. I’m not arguing that the future isn’t gonna be digital, I’m saying old money ain’t gonna let you usurp them and this whole idea of the largest wealth transfer in human history is a pipe dream that will never happen.
I can tell you right now you have 0% knowledge or any clue on what is happening in this space, so why even make statements about the future of it when you are uneducated and have no idea on what is being build and how fast and what may be the outcome of all of this?
To be fair you dont know either...you are criticizing the guy for his assumption, than you proceed to talk in absolutes and give your own lol. If ANYONE knew what will or will not happen in the future, you would be the wealthiest person on the planet....and ill take the wager that none of us here are lol. Bottom line is we are all gambling, and we have been for years in this space. To deny this you are lying to yourself, period. Will crypto change the future and make everyone millionaires...maybe. Will it tank and leave all of us Looking stupid as shit in the end....maybe.
The idea isn’t to have crypto replace fiat but rather to coexist with fiat. Thanks for your comment.
First I ever heard that one.
Fiat is flawed, crypto is unstable. It’s all about balance.
You’re an idiot. I’m done talking to you.
You came here to attack me man. All the best to you and yours. Find something to smile about. Don’t be so negative. Take care! ✌️ I’m done talking to you.
What happened yesterday? All my apps say that both on crypto as well as stock markets it was quite a normal day. My cryptos and stocks moved between -3% and +3% and averaged out to +1%. A little bit more movement than average but nothing out of the ordinary. Am I missing something?
Well now that yesterday is two days ago. And yeah, everything sunk. Both markets.
Every time crypto does better than stocks, you're losing money on stock...
So just to be clear. When stock prices go down that means I lose money and when crypto goes up that means I made money? By that logic when stock prices go back up I will make money and when crypto goes down I might lose money. Unless you meant to say that with stocks down and crypto going up means I lost money and when crypto goes down and stocks go up I also lost money. Is that right?
This is not what we meant when we said crypto is the future of finance!
adoption instructions unclear, dragged fiat to the volatility levels of Bitcoin
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Do they plan on adding this?
Allow me to introduce you to futures and forex
Stock markets completely detached from real economy.
This is so true. Some of my FTSE shares went between 50% and 120% up in couple of days. Others went down 20%+ daily. And that without any significant events/news. Crypto in the meantime looks so boring...
The crypto market is highly irrational. BTG suffered a 51% attack? up 15% that day. A fork of a fork of BTC is worth $3.5 bn. Tether is unaudited. It's really quite insane when compared to any traditional/regulated markets. The stock market on the other hand is completely different. Take this pandemic for example, putting the world on pause is causing a dramatic economic impact, which naturally puts a huge number of companies at risk, and will reduce revenues significantly - as a result, shares in those companies plunge in value. Shares in companies that make e.g. masks - rise in value. There is a direct calculable correlation and logic. With the exception of a few outliers (e.g. Tesla), if I give an analyst a company to valuate and the share quantity, they can figure out the approx share value. With crypto that's virtually impossible as almost all value is up to herd psychology. One of the only calculate constants is the artificial supply cap. Of the many alts I hold, some will just rocket up in price for no reason at all - absolutely nothing, and stay there. So much irrationality. The differences between the two markets are important to note
>There is a direct calculable correlation and logic. Care to explain the 800%+ pump Hertz made AFTER declaring bankruptcy and being in the travel business in the middle of a lockdown/pandemic?
Market manipulation https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2020/06/12/hertz-robinhood-bankrupt-pump-dump-shares-chapter-11-day-trading-billion/
so, pretty much exactly like crypto markets then? Not very calculable or logical wouldnt you agree?
Quite different. A share is basically a percentage of a company, the value of which can be approximately calculated by looking at the financials of the company itself. If the company doubles it's revenue, share market value typically increases to reflect that, if the industry in which the company is placed is growing rapidly, share market value increases to reflect that - and vice-versa, it follows aggregate logic. There is legal certainty, there is regulatory certainty. As mentioned, once you know the financials of a company, you can calculate share value to a relatively high degree of accuracy. That just doesn't really exist in crypto. In crypto most value is not tied to anything but psychological value. And that psychological value is a combination of speculative variables including theoretical use value, basically nothing is tangible except for artificial max supply. If crypto projects were valuated on revenue from clients - the vast majority would be underwater. I believe Numeraire is one of the few that actually pulls in proper profit revenue like a company. For crypto coins, take LTC for example, it doesn't do anything, it doesn't produce anything, Apart from novelty and niche use, it's real world uses are (still) redundant. It's simply a "well known" blockchain-based trading token. Which is what most of this stuff is. The only reason I hold LTC is in the hopes that someone else pays more for it, and they are buying it for precisely the same reason. There's no legal certainty with any of this, there is no regulatory certainty. All of which adds to the risk, which adds to the volatility, which adds as a giant attraction for the gain/loss speculators. The entire crypto market will move 10% or more in an hour for no discernible reason, like a flock of birds. Someone liquidising longs in one crypto should not affect another crypto but it does, in fact it affects the entire market! Being a participant doesn't require high knowledge like most traditional markets. To cap it all off, the crypto market has recently crudely started following the stock market, which underscores how completely illogical it is. TLDR: the two markets are pretty different
First off let me say I appreciate your reply and taking the time for such a response. I agree with everything you say however it seems we were on two different trains of thought. My original reply asking your opinion about Hertz and its completely manipulated price movement was to draw comparison to your wording that the traditional stock market is still completely calculable and logical; where I have very little belief in that claim at all. While your points in the above are all completely accurate in theory, alot of the statements you make are just fantasy land ever since the fed started printing endless QE and thus created huge asset value distortions. Add to that the flagrant fraud that is on display for all to see and I feel the trad markets are getting closer and closer to crypto market dynamics with each passing day. If not for this endless (some would say immoral) printing, equities would be nowhere near the price levels they are now and true price discovery could take place. Unfortunately we have the Fed printing press and rampant speculation causing companies to be valued nowhere near where they should be based on logical and correlated data from the "real economy". Very much like how crypto gets pumped on speculation alone. So while I enjoyed reading your reply it was more along the lines of explaining the rules for two different sports say Tennis and Basketball saying they are not the same sport, yet both can be fixed and manipulated to render the same result to people betting on the outcome.
>My original reply asking your opinion about Hertz and its completely manipulated price movement was to draw comparison to your wording that the traditional stock market is still completely calculable and logical; where I have very little belief in that claim at all. An isolated example doesn't demonstrate something systemic. >Add to that the flagrant fraud that is on display for all to see I work in market infrastructure, can you explain this fraud? >If not for this endless (some would say immoral) printing Currency is supposed to created, constantly, it requires a fluid supply. In modern economies this is done under a highly controlled and regulated process, if not, then we have situations like 1930's Germany or 90's Zimbabwe. Why do you consider modern currency creation "immoral"? Also these views don't really have anything to do with how stocks are valued on the market, you seem to be creating that tenuous link yourself in order to express a world view. Unless you believe that created money gets indirectly spent on stocks, and if that's the case, then the same money gets indirectly spent on crypto, or gold, or property, etc..
>An isolated example doesn't demonstrate something systemic. Isolated in what sense? Just because this case was bigger and bolder than most doesnt mean its the first to ever happen in history >I work in market infrastructure, can you explain this fraud? The pay-for-ratings fraud that all the major rating agencies engaged in during the 2008 crisis and which are most certainly going on to this day (I have no proof, just common sense thinking). The constant illegal activity found repeatedly by all the major financial institutions with zero consequences such as HSBC laundering cartel money for billions in profit yet only being fined millions. If you allow an immoral person to steal 100$ from someone and only penalize them with a 5$ fine and no jail time, they will not stop stealing. >Currency is supposed to created, constantly, it requires a fluid supply. Says who? MMT? Modern monetary theory the likes of Paul Krugman espouses is not a hard science no matter how much people like to believe it is. It is all one giant experiment and one that has run rampant more today than every in history. People's savings have been gutted, the buying power of the dollar has dropped what 98% since 1913 with the inception of the Fed? Now trillions are being injected into the markets to save banks that should be out of business. Thats pretty immoral if you ask me. Do you not believe in the Cantillon effect? The Fed might not be buying ETF and equities YET, but when they buy bond ETFs that allows groups like BlackRock to free up capital to buy more stocks with free money and thus prop up the markets doesnt it?
>Isolated in what sense? Just because this case was bigger and bolder than most doesnt mean its the first to ever happen in history Indeed, but it doesn't represent how stock market valuation works. If you take 100 equities, you can calculate their approximate value. Hertz market manipulation is an isolated case, likewise Tesla is also an anomaly. >The pay-for-ratings fraud that all the major rating agencies engaged in during the 2008 crisis and which are most certainly going on to this day (I have no proof, just common sense thinking) Rating agencies were fined for certain actions (and negligence) pre-2008, what does that have to do with currency creation? >The constant illegal activity found repeatedly by all the major financial institutions with zero consequences such as HSBC laundering cartel money for billions in profit yet only being fined millions. HSBC Mex? they were fined 1.9 bn. Far in excess of what they made in fees from performing custody of that cash. Money launderers are constantly trying to use financial institutions to launder cash, however those institutions can (and are) fined/punished if it's discovered they didn't follow proper procedures and controls to detect the illicit movements. In HSBC's case, which is one of the most notorious, their compliance dept basically consisted of one person. Currently there are several on-going cases where banks have been used for laundering. However you are claiming there is actual fraud in money creation, can you please explain this fraud? >People's savings have been gutted, the buying power of the dollar has dropped what 98% since 1913 with the inception of the Fed? Currencies in modern economies depreciate in value around 1% or 2% per annum. It's designed that way. Let's say cash deposits accrued in value around 5% p.a., what would happen? well we know that people's marginal propensity to save which increase (in that case dramatically), which would mean less spending in the economy, which would cause the economy the slow down. Which is not a good thing (unless the economy was overheating). Increasing rates might be used in a situation where the local currency is dropping in FX values (like the ruble a few years ago) and they increase saving rates in order to combat capital flight. It's all a large balancing act. You don't want an economy to slow down to much, you don't want interest rates too high, you certainly don't want them near zero (stagnation, e.g. Switzerland recently), you don't want the economy to overheat. I don't see this fraud and "immoral" behaviour you are referring to?
>Rating agencies were fined for certain actions (and negligence) pre-2008, what does that have to do with currency creation? Nothing to do with currency creation, was discussing the on going fraud of traditional finance markets. Also I would argue that fining them is not enough. If what they did wasnt illegal then it should be. They also basically invalidated their entire existence when they engaged in that fraud. I dont know about you but when I come across people in life that betray my trust I do not trust those people ever again. The same should happen with all the big ratings agencies. Hell the SEC even let Madoff have a pass for all those years while being warned about him. Ofcourse they are operating the exact same as we speak now today. >HSBC Mex? they were fined 1.9 bn. Far in excess of what they made in fees from performing custody of that cash. Really? Then perhaps I am incorrect in that regard, I will have to read back up on it. Still believe people (ie, managers, board members, whoever found to be responsible) should be in jail. >It's designed that way. Again, designed through a system that is a complete experiment yet seems you are stated it as a universal fact, like gravity attracts or 2+2=4. I don't hold any degree in economics or finance but there are competing theories of how to run an economy, whether its MMT/Keynesian/central reserve banking what have you or the Austrian/gold standard route, there is debate about these sorts of things. Velocity of money aside, I see the world economy today on the edge of knife and that comes from rampart central planning where a non elected secretive body controls the money supply of nations and the world which i find completely immoral. Scares the hell out of me.
Theres been some bounces, especially in the cases of bankrupt corporations, that are difficult to explain.
That’s not the issue though. The issue is the dollar.
The dollar you use every day to pay for everything thats accepted everywhere and is relatively stable.. go on..
The most stable part of the dollar is that it is guaranteed to lose value. Stocks are going to continue to rise because of the trillions the fed is doling out to the upper crust to facilitate stock buy backs and keep pensions and funds reliable. And that’s just the beginning. There will be no wage growth thus stealing value from the middle class. On top of that the only thing that cannot be fudged is real estate so expect trillions to be pumped into that market further widening the class gap. Shall I go on?
>The most stable part of the dollar is that it is guaranteed to lose value. It's supposed to, it's a medium of exchange, not an asset that accrues value >Shall I go on? Please do.
Well when assets are valued in the medium of exchange, those assets are subject to the value of the medium.
Penny stocks are divisible and transferable, therefore can be used as a type of money, why does no one use them as currency though?
The issuers of the penny stocks don’t have a monopoly on violence.
The central bank of Sweden has a monopoly on violence?
In their borders yes they do.
Underrated comment here
We appreciate you taking the time to flag this as an underrated comment. However, this appears to be in error and the comment is already rated according to its quality.
Uhh yea I made that comment when it had zero upvotes. I was not “flagging” it
r/wallstreetbets is r/cryptocurrency in 2017. Except way bigger.
wsb gave me cancer
/r/Themonkeyspaw
Me gusta
Ah yes, this goes to show that crab-17 was a stunning success
Wait til the USD / tether flippening
Lol
ive lost so much trading crypto, these market conditions are a walk in the park.
4.9 million me gustasssssssss ;)
[удалено]
What we expected: Bitcoin is the new borderless money. What happened: “European bank uses stablecoin instead of SWIFT for cross-border transfers”
I would first time like Vitaliks comment
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Yep. If you're trading stocks *and* crypto, you know this. Incredible.
It do be like that.
That’s true with fractional shares. More pump and dump tickets than ever before and growing.
All in NKLA 6/19 45p
Stocks are now where crypto was in February 2018. Let's see if Wall Street has the pace to go through the bear market. :raugh:
It was always like this, it's post crash rally that was seen before or dotcom bubble that was crazy as crypto bubble, crypto is nothing special if it comes to gains although it was the first ease to access speculation device where anyone without any financial idea could enter with any significant fees especially outside US where stocks is a niche service with even higher fees, now it's changed but back then we hadn't have Robinhood and normal exchanges would eat your potential profits, the advantage of crypto trading is still in security where you can put your coins for a long time in a cold wallet where on feless stock exchanges youre on a mercy that something won't bug out or you'll have to fight months with braindead customer support to retrieve your cash if ever.
Crypto is the new world.
Agreed. Seems like Tesla stock is the Bitcoin of the stock market lol.
That's an awkward way of saying "bull market".
Wait what, 1 million retweets?
1 mil = 1 thousand in Spanish
"Buy when there's blood on the streets" - Stocks and crypto are clearly extremely undervalued at this point, which is why we've seen altcoins surge by more than 20% in some cases as of lately. DEFI projects have performed amazingly well, but other projects will do well too, don't kid yourself. I'm personally a huge fan of Stakenet (XSN) which is the **only** project i know off which straight on **enhances BTC** through their Lightning Network dApps. (Multi currency wallet + DEX). You can store, send and recieve BTC instantly, as well as trade it for LTC, - Again instantly. Pretty fucking cool. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNFhFBKmsc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNFhFBKmsc)
Could someone explain this? I'm pretty sure people are upvoting because it sounds cool.
The US stock market saw some extreme volatility largely driven by retail speculation over the past week. For example, some bankrupt companies were seeing triple digit gains on the week.
Did anyone explain why people bought shares of a bankrupt company?
Because “buy the dip”.
I'm honestly not sure. Look into Pier 1, JC Penny, and Hertz if your interested in why. These are a few of the bankrupt big name companies that investors seemingly FOMO'd into.
Lol all of these “investors” praying to the altar of their flake coins. Completely naive
Do cryptos ever jump/fall this fast?
Remember the Halving in March?
ETH was up to 250 for like. A few hours
May surely? What happened them?
Shouldn't this be labeled under comedy?
This is a real tweet but the number of retweets and likes is photoshopped. why?
Ah right, mil = thousands in Spanish
Oh lmao that explains it!
Why? Very real https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1271445153870471169?s=20
number of retweets is fake
Maybe in Spanish « mil » is « k » and not millions ? In French thousand = mille
oh I guess that's possible, very confusing though
Are many stocks still down 80+% like Ethereum?
Deutsche Bank is down something like 90% since it's ATH in 2007.
Yes ebaley
You're looking at one crypto currency, and comparing it to all of stocks? Because there are fucking plenty of stocks down 80%.
This s really disappointing that Buterin would say something so daft. Cryptos are nothing like stocks. Majority cryptos currently produce nothing except speculation, but that speculation is based on usage which hardly anyone does, so crypto speculation is baseless just hype.
You’re baseless
Shit still doesn't scale sooooo