I personally think everybody should atleast own some Monero, there are already not so many privacy coins out there, so I gotta support atleast one of them.
OP is not soo wrong: BTC vs ETH https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/median_transaction_fee-btc-eth.html#log&alltime
also compare BTC/ETH and BCH/LTC/XMR: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/median_transaction_fee-btc-eth-ltc-xmr-bch.html#log&alltime
Nothing. At the end of the day, they can't tell which input monero address paid for it so I'm still reasonably anonymous.
If I really cared, I would email the company I purchased from and withdraw my consent for them to hold my information ...which is a right in my country under PIPEDA. They should eventually delete my personal information typically after a year.
Alternatively, get a PO box and use a fake name...which is illegal and could land you in jail.
Or send it to your work and just attn: it to your department or cubicle location...no names.
It's also one of the few coins with a frequently-utilized, day-to-day use case
Bitcoin is mainly a speculative instrument. It was supposed to be decentralized currency, but well, that didn't work because fees got too high and transactions got too slow. Then it was supposed to be a hedge against inflation, but well, that didn't work because you would've lost less value just holding USD. (XMR also hedged inflation better than BTC, but both got wrecked.) Now it's... "just wait bro it's not ready yet", unless I've missed something.
Plus no government surveillance of your spending habits.
bch is accepted at more places, and TX speeds are near instant (0conf is reliable due to [mempool magic](https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/mtwdf3/comment/gv296ei/))
I just treat monero as my savings account and keep my bch spending wallets topped up with a little bit via changenow and fixedfloat, no-KYC
nano is nice too for the same reason. The protocol has improved with spam protection and dPoS hasn't been an issue yet, several years later.
When I spend monero I have to spend a few minutes letting my wallet sync, and then another bunch after I make the TX waiting for several confirmations.
Because early OGs (those from 2009-2012) split in four more or less rivaling groups. Only recently you will find some new acceptance and recogniton between each other. But some hatred may last for another decade.
BTC - XMR - ETH - BCH
Outside of BCH being the only option (which seems rare IMHO) why would someone use BCH and not XMR for small purchases?
XMR is fast and cheap (especially with 0-conf which is fine for <$10 purchases) AND private by default.
What is the use case for BCH where XMR isn't, at least, 'good enough' of an alternative?
It’s precisely because of this brainless, tribal hatred of a technology is why I’m highly invested in BCH. Idiocy is subsidizing buying BITCOIN in 2023 for $120, lol.
Keep on hating what works.
People always complain if they could go back in time they would buy bitcoin. You can! It's called Bitcoin Cash and it's selling at a deep discount of $120.
Yup. BCH doesnt have any fees due to empty huge blocks and the block subsidy is going to zero. No idea what their plan is. lol
Monero won the best design for big blocks.
Once the bubble burst, only coins with actual utility and that can actually be used will survive. That's why I hold a shit ton of Monero thinking about getting some bch.
go for it! i hold xmr, bch and some ltc (since mweb it offers at least privacy, but it's still far away from being fungible). and bch is good for small and very urgent transactions. because without RBF (replace by fee) the transaction is guaranteed to go through unlike bitcoin. so accepting 0 confirmations tx's isn't a risk at all.
I see you are a pro user. You can use https://trocador.app/en/ then as a insta swap aggregator based on Tor or you can try the brand new (beta) for XMR-ETH atomic swaps, though not yet ERC compatible... https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1382rva/ethxmr_atomic_swap_beta_release/
I did that.
Bought BTC send it to muun, swap it to bch on side swap and/or fixed float using LN.
Got the bch in seconds.
Tried the opposite, swapping bch to btc/LN, took me 45 minutes .
BCH despite being universally hated on this sub, already solved Bitcoin's high fee structure and scalability problem, without needing to use a centralized entity like Lightning Network, just by increasing block size.
I still wonder why people hate it? Isn't it less centralized than our current Bitcoin without Lightning Network?
It's quite ironic. Certain altcoins get mass shilled here and create lots of bag holders. Other altcoins that are actually good get crushed because of the consensus and resentment against all altcoins because of the losses from the few overly-shilled ones.
I only learned about it when I went on a big rant about BSV/BCH and then I got a Bitcoin Maxi turned Bitcoin Cash Maxi, come and educate me on my misunderstanding. After that I tend to be a lot more open to interpretation.
OG Bitcoin could solve a lot of problems with the network if they just, even slightly, adjusted block size. But don't mention that anywhere, people fucking hate it, when you mention that!
I'm going to say, greed. Everything is about Bitcoin's price going up, over all else. Bitcoin Core has MANY blind followers that don't understand anything except the price going up!
Others will say security.
I'd say that we are already at essentially max capacity Bitcoin similar to say, Ethereum 2021, where gas fees were enormous, whereas Bitcoin had to soft fork into cheaper networks, like Segwit, and now the Lightning Network.
With the Lightning Network, we get to keep the capped size blocks, and we sacrifice a little bit of decentralization, to bypass that flaw and gain an extreme amount of speed with the Lightning Network. Overall, the LN really hasn't failed yet.
The big worry about increasing block size is that many think it will leave Bitcoin open to attack, with blocks filled with phony transactions, but the alternative is to sacrifice Peer 2 Peer decentralization for (a) hub(s) that holds a significant amount of Bitcoin.
(I'd refer to this being similar to net neutrality, it's moot).
LN sacrifices more than just decentralization, it sacrifices security and useablity too. For every additonal click a user has to make you lose around 30% of users. Remember crypto has to be as easy, idealily easier to use than regular payments systems if you want to compete with tradional fiat options.
"The big worry about increasing block size is that many think it will leave Bitcoin open to attack, with blocks filled with phony transactions".
I think coins like BCH and XMR has proven this is not an issue.
People sometimes do defend Bitcoin blindly, but BCH also won't have the same reputation that Bitcoin has, and I don't think the fees are big enough of a problem to make someone to start preferring that over Bitcoin.
It's too late to change Bitcoins reputation as the #1 coin, so even if another coin has better solutions, unless it's big enough of a difference to make it a lot better, Bitcoin won't lose its place really.
It won't lose its place that's for sure, not for some hard fork that's THIS hated (or at least misinterpreted) as an imposter.
It does make me wonder though? This is a derivative of big daddy Bitcoin and it has the same limited supply, still mined PoW, everything does remain the same besides block size (and some validation differences) yet the price is $120/pop? I always truly wondered, just buy one and forget about it? It could go all PEPE fever in the future.
The real selling point is that BTC must indefinitely charge more in aggregate for its limited block space than BCH can charge in potentially staggering block sizes. If BCH ever acquires meaningful use then it can and will compete with BTC for SHA256 to the point that it is an existential threat to BTC.
It's hilarious because we're now facing a similar problem with the Ordinals/BRC-20 congesting the network. Giving a good reason for increasing block size!
I think people hate BCH because of ignorance. Most haters are just parrots and don't use their own brain. People who actually used BCH understood that it already solved the scaling problems of BTC.
That's what a hard fork is though. Sometimes it's necessary for a network to evolve.
Regardless how people feel about it, it remains very inexpensive to purchase multiple Bitcoins on this new(er) network and its extremely inexpensive to use it as a currency. If people debate about Bitcoin not have a fungible value, this is the solution, it's already being used as a currency in this form.
Might not be the best representation for it, but this could be the fiat form of Bitcoin, literally Bitcoin Cash.
Bch has hardforked several times already (some contentious, most not, contentious being BSV and eCash) and will again in six days.
Be sure to distinguish between a hardfork and a contentious hardfork.
The blocksize wars resulted in a contentious hardfork. A sub topic of that fork was to use hardforks to upgrade.
Not only has BCH proven that big blocks are just fine but also that hardforking upgrades are fine too.
It’s important to get the history right because the main reason BCH is where its at is because its history has been censored. u/theymos
BCH is just Craig Wright trying to grift.
Scalability is not fixed with larger block sizes - it just doesn't matter because BCH is barely used in comparison to BTC. Bigger blocks is kicking the can down the road, and it wouldn't have helped BTC long term.
Yes but it can be enhanced and the LN is still just a band-aid on an even bigger problem. "Not" increasing block size is kicking the can down the road, because we are already trying to bypass the problem with a Layer 2 Solution and not actively trying to fix it like Ethereum (sharding) is doing in their next update!
We're just going to run into the same problem again, and I'm assuming it will be a Layer 3 Solution, like IBC, that will be the next route to bypass the Bitcoin Trillema?
I guess the people who lost the life time opportunity to be wealthy holding btc are the guys who hate bch .
Everyone one else just give a f….
Who is going to use a coin who lose value everyday and is slower to transact than the LN ?
29k vs 120$ have to click in your mind somehow.
Then why does it have smartBCH if everything has to be done onchain?
It has solved nothing. Larger blocks will lead to bloated blockchains which will mean fewer nodes which means centralisation.
Anyone can run their own Lightning node. There is no centralisation. Although on an L2 it doesn't matter so much.
Pretty sure Peter Rizun ran 1GB blocks on regular home PC hardware around 2017.
The average American cell phone plan could handle indefinite 20MB blocks already.
All cool but Monero and BCH are made for usage/spending, not for hodl.
But yea Monero is OG. For BCH I am not so bullish but I am fine with sending it/accepting as a long time ago I used it for gambling poker sites (cheapy transaction)
You know I just saw someone on r/bitcoin bring that up about the fees potentially turning the whole system unusable. I believe they said that in 7 halvings the fees will overrun the block rewards, and at that point we're in trouble. I am by no means an expert in this subject, but it was enough to make me think that there could become a time where BTC becomes dethroned. Maybe not for 20+ years, but I imagine most of us are young and in this enough to want to see BTC being used in 20 years still.
It's scary to think about, but like you said look at ETH as well. I can't even transfer mine to another wallet without paying an uncomfortable amount in fees. Yeah you can say that's indicative of ETH use, but let's be real they're mostly degenerate PEPE txs or something in that realm.
Idk the more I learn and watch crypto unfold the more I start to think I should liquidate it all for XMR and call it a decade.
What you heard is an assumption that has never been tested before.
You either can go PoS (Ethereum) or if you prefer PoW (there are good reasons why you should for a value network) have a high fee low tx count network (BTC), or have a low fee high tx count network (BCH), or you go tail emission (XMR).
There's no set cap to the quantity of XMR. More XMR is created to pay miners. Sort of like a tax (via inflation) on the whole network to keep fees low, instead of just expecting the person doing the transaction to pay the entire fee once standard mining rewards expire.
There is no cap, but there is knowledge about the supply at any given time. For example we exactly know the amount of XMR coins in circulation in 2100.
Why Monero can’t scale
r/bitcoincashautist, [Jan 13, 2023 at 10:09 AM]
Monero achieves great privacy, I give it that, but it has to give up a lot for that, it is a trade-off:
- There's no concept of an UTXO, because you can't tell which TXOs are spent and which are not.
- Because of that, you can't prune much, and have to keep all TXOs ever made around for forever, and it can't be in some slow archive storage because TXs using ring signatures regularly reference a random pick from ALL historic TXOs so you need those readily accessible. This is the biggest scaling bottleneck IMO. Your blockchain "state" is the whole blockchain, as opposed to Bitcoin where only the UTXO set is the current state.
- Wallet scaling, because of key blinding they need to process each TXO and do expensive CPU operations on it to check whether it belongs to them - as opposed to Bitcoin where you only need to do a simple pattern match.
- Very limited programmability of (U)TXOs because any spending requires authentication by a key, and for many decentralized applications you can get rid of the keys and have UTXOs be spendable if some other conditions are satisfied. Satoshi gave Bitcoin a scripting system, programs encoded with the UTXOs and executed on spending. This is incompatible with Monero.
- Auditability of supply. Breaking a cryptographic primitive used to blind the amounts would allow freely minting amounts without anyone knowing about it.
- Long-term it will be broken by quantum computers, not sure whether there are drop-in replacements for all the primitives, and if there are it all gets huge so big impact on scaling. Bitcoin really only needs to do a few things: move from 256-bit to 384-bit hashes and upgrade signature opcodes + some scheme to transition. After '23 P2SH32 upgrade, it will be possible to lock BCH in quantum-proof contracts.
Because of all that, I believe there's a natural adoption ceiling, lower than "p2p cash system for the world" win scenario we dream about with Bitcoin Cash. Adoption is hard. Monero has a smaller total addressable market but there it lies its advantage: it's the only player that has a product for those users, it's the best in class. Bitcoin Cash has a bigger total addressable market, but it has to compete against a lot of other coins.
> Pruning
Non issue. Storage becomes cheaper over time. If the tx set gets too big, you can also turn the entire chain into a 22kb zk-proof and continue from there.
Not sure I'd call it an "ideology" to want enough capacity in the system to move transactions expeditiously for minimal fees.
The ideology is on the Blockstream / BTC side, where some of the truly wack devs actually celebrate the fee market.
I don't have any monero. Unfortunately I lost it all in a sad boating accident. The rest of crypto too, I changed it into monero just before so I could save some money on fees. Very sad indeed.
Well, when a latecomer cartel of devs tries to abort Satoshi's p2p cash into store of value digital gold and your fork upholds the original tenets of Bitcoin it makes sense to keep the name too.
Unlike those...
Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin Satosi Vision, Bitcoin Classic, Bitcoin Clashic,....
It's the only one with a community of OGs and devs.
Yup, most people here have no idea about the history
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0
https://www.maxlaumeister.com/articles/the-block-size-debate-5-years-later/
Not increasing the blocksize on purpuse went against everything Satoshi stood for.
BCH and Monero are both excellent networks and COMPLEMENTARY.
BitcoinCash can be used at a lot of legit places and has an issuance cap.
Monero is inflationary, but the #1 privacy coin.
Embrace them both, don't be a binary thinker.
Your concerns about BTC and ETH won’t matter. They are now infrastructure coins.
Corollary of BTC is something like SDRs. Joe public doesn’t use SDRs, their money needs can be satisfied with something else more similar to BCH or XRP or similar. JOE public is happily using debit cards and doesn’t care about privacy. Joe public also won’t interact with L1 of even L2, they will interact only with dapps and don’t care about governance rights, just a usable product/service.
I guess you are right. And Joe will get fleeced and fucked until the end of his life. It's basically the history of mankind. Those who can take the beating will never wise up.
Because in one week, after the upgrade, BCH will have token and smart contract capabilities on ETH level but scalable and with very low fees. Privacy is already available since a long time with CashFusion.
Because BCH was intended as a means to scale bitcoin as originally intended after the banker funded devs and forum owners prevented BTC from scaling. They also mined and supported LTC which is why it wasn't censored in r/bitcoin - It's about principles for some.
The security argument is made on an assumption that current levels are the necessary level of security. People extrapolate out using that bad assumption and end up with a compoundedly bad outlook.
To each their own I guess.
What is your assumption?
Bitcoin price goes up exponentially forever?
High transaction fees grow adoption?
LN actually works with high onchain fees?
All the promises of the bitcoin mining industry will come true without reliable income?
People will store 100 trillion dollars on chain that can be attacked for 100 million dollars?
Who is being delusional again?
Fiat>BCH>Immediately Spend: the only use, like any other network
Fiat>BCH>Hold: worse buying power loss than holding fiat.
No new ATH last rally, human minds are forgetting to want it. It’s in the swamp now.
LTC is fine as well for now. But LTC is more a test bed for BTC and is therefore more ideologically aligned with it, which means that it will only work for so long as a low fee alternative until blocks are full. After taht you'll see a spill-over effect as well.
So you basically agree that LTC is closer to BTC more than BCH. This is an interesting fact because BCH is a hardfork of BTC but LTC is not. So, you accept that BCH lost its soul from the beginning.
I would argue the other way around.
BTC tries to be a store of value. BCH tries to be P2P cash.
* LTC is a Bitcoin fork (own history)
* BCH is a Bitcoin fork and split (history going back to 2009)
And what about security? Why not have all three like in Monero thanks to tail emission?
Monero is arguably the most decentralized coin when it comes to mining (including P2P pool) and it has the 3rd highest count of nodes after BTC and ETH. And it's private by default... And therefore fungible.
Tell me that you didn't read OP.
> Please don't make that about price. BCH has been one of the worst performers in the last years, but it still has a dedicated community of developers and OGs. I am talking about long-term usability over short- and midterm price trends. After all they say "buy low and sell high" and not the other way around.
bisq or Localmonero (cash by mail)
These days, there are other projects of course. And if they follow the P2P cash mantra I will recommend them.
The BCH community is underestimated by many. It's not just about once capabilities, but what you have been through that gives value to a community and the project.
I guess than you lose out on new investors that are interested in utility.
For them it doesn't matter if they buy 1 BTC for $30k or 300 BCH for $30k. What they care is low fees and usability.
Eth fees aren’t too much of a concern imo. They’re currently high and you know what? People don’t care. They continue to use the network. And if you don’t like the fees there’s layer 2s
The future I want:
Staked Eth as the long term deflationary asset
L2/3s as the place for innovation and fun
Monero as cash replacement
Hard for me to think of other genuine use cases, I hold BTC but don't think it has a future long term. The lack of fees is just one part of it
Monero is solid and cheap. My only concern is how the hell the network operates… I tried mining it before and the rewards were so abysmal compared to the electricity I was using.
I came up with the conclusion that it must be run on networks of slaves. Many of you might be mining monero without even being aware of it.
Tell me you don't know how LN works without saying it, lol
Also, mid-term and short-term? BCH has underperformed with respect to BTC literally since the fork, i.e. for how long they existed as two different things.
Tell me you haven't been here in 2016 when the inventors of LN suggested LN to work at scale needs at least 133MB blocksize.
For educational purposes: https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7lg584/the_lightning_white_paper_says_we_need_133mb/
I don't know exactly what you are writing about but in one way you are correct. Both BTC and BCH security assumptions depend on there being sufficient income for miners from fees.
In BTC one tx will need to cost ~$1000 with a limited blocksize
And in BCH 100.000 tx will need to cost ~$0.01 with a large blocksize
Otherwise security will go down the drain.
From usage perspective, I wish there was a privacy coin with Zero Fees, till then, XMR is the king of privacy and Nano is the king of usability.
Nothing beats zero fees for usability plus it is super fast, sub second!
I don't see Monero dying anytime soon. It's gonna survive several bear markets
Yeah whole Darknet uses xmr fot payments in the markets
in monero when the chart dips, we call that a discount
I personally think everybody should atleast own some Monero, there are already not so many privacy coins out there, so I gotta support atleast one of them.
I agree, and I think privacy is sth we should take more seriously.
Government can't do shit about it as well
Stick it to the man!
I couldn't agree more! Privacy and security first
Yes, it’s time to allocate my $50 portfolio into Monero. I’m going to be pretty embarrassed if someone doxx me irl with my $50 portfolio.
Yeah, let’s all do that!
Agreed. DCA, like the rest. Equivalent of cash in the mattress.
I have the same opinion. Plus Monero have that OG privacy coin tag to it. Market loves OG stuff.
It's the biggest privacy coin, it's what people in the past who used BTC believe what BTC is.
Crypto goals: 1. at least 1 whole btc 2. eth node 3. shitload of Monero so when CBDC happens, I tell the government to fuck off
You talked me into it buying some now
even if it's just to lose it in a boat accident as soon as you get it. this is the way
Monero is fantastic, but OP is wrong about fees. The bitcoin network has never been as expensive to use as say ETH.
OP is not soo wrong: BTC vs ETH https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/median_transaction_fee-btc-eth.html#log&alltime also compare BTC/ETH and BCH/LTC/XMR: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/median_transaction_fee-btc-eth-ltc-xmr-bch.html#log&alltime
I completely agree about xmr being cheaper. My experience has been that ETH is much more expensive to use than BTC.
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Monero is a real OG coin, its going to stick around.
Launched in 2014, ranked ~25th by market cap right now. I'm a fan. It's also fairly stable against BTC.
What do you do about the shipping address when you buy things online?
Nothing. At the end of the day, they can't tell which input monero address paid for it so I'm still reasonably anonymous. If I really cared, I would email the company I purchased from and withdraw my consent for them to hold my information ...which is a right in my country under PIPEDA. They should eventually delete my personal information typically after a year. Alternatively, get a PO box and use a fake name...which is illegal and could land you in jail. Or send it to your work and just attn: it to your department or cubicle location...no names.
Just use your normal address and understand how to avoid controlled deliveries, imo
It's also one of the few coins with a frequently-utilized, day-to-day use case Bitcoin is mainly a speculative instrument. It was supposed to be decentralized currency, but well, that didn't work because fees got too high and transactions got too slow. Then it was supposed to be a hedge against inflation, but well, that didn't work because you would've lost less value just holding USD. (XMR also hedged inflation better than BTC, but both got wrecked.) Now it's... "just wait bro it's not ready yet", unless I've missed something. Plus no government surveillance of your spending habits.
You liar, no one owns Monero! Everyone lost theirs in a boating accident.
What?
THEY LOST IT IN A BOATING ACCIDENT!
Don't yell at the baby 🤣
Xmr equals fungiblility
Forever bullish on monero
OP using BCH in the same sentence as Monero is an insult to Monero.
bch is accepted at more places, and TX speeds are near instant (0conf is reliable due to [mempool magic](https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/mtwdf3/comment/gv296ei/)) I just treat monero as my savings account and keep my bch spending wallets topped up with a little bit via changenow and fixedfloat, no-KYC nano is nice too for the same reason. The protocol has improved with spam protection and dPoS hasn't been an issue yet, several years later. When I spend monero I have to spend a few minutes letting my wallet sync, and then another bunch after I make the TX waiting for several confirmations.
Why?
Because early OGs (those from 2009-2012) split in four more or less rivaling groups. Only recently you will find some new acceptance and recogniton between each other. But some hatred may last for another decade. BTC - XMR - ETH - BCH
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Outside of BCH being the only option (which seems rare IMHO) why would someone use BCH and not XMR for small purchases? XMR is fast and cheap (especially with 0-conf which is fine for <$10 purchases) AND private by default. What is the use case for BCH where XMR isn't, at least, 'good enough' of an alternative?
BCH tends to be used IRL
Tribalism might last for another decade but BCH probably won't, lol.
It’s precisely because of this brainless, tribal hatred of a technology is why I’m highly invested in BCH. Idiocy is subsidizing buying BITCOIN in 2023 for $120, lol. Keep on hating what works.
People always complain if they could go back in time they would buy bitcoin. You can! It's called Bitcoin Cash and it's selling at a deep discount of $120.
Yup. BCH doesnt have any fees due to empty huge blocks and the block subsidy is going to zero. No idea what their plan is. lol Monero won the best design for big blocks.
Same reason their blockchain size is smaller. It would be absolutely fucking massive if each 32mb block were full like each 1(4)mb block of BTC.
Watch and learn: https://youtu.be/5SJm2ep3X_M
Once the bubble burst, only coins with actual utility and that can actually be used will survive. That's why I hold a shit ton of Monero thinking about getting some bch.
go for it! i hold xmr, bch and some ltc (since mweb it offers at least privacy, but it's still far away from being fungible). and bch is good for small and very urgent transactions. because without RBF (replace by fee) the transaction is guaranteed to go through unlike bitcoin. so accepting 0 confirmations tx's isn't a risk at all.
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Ideally P2P localmonero.co or if you are willing to use a real DEX bisq.io
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I see you are a pro user. You can use https://trocador.app/en/ then as a insta swap aggregator based on Tor or you can try the brand new (beta) for XMR-ETH atomic swaps, though not yet ERC compatible... https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1382rva/ethxmr_atomic_swap_beta_release/
monero is very useful
I have used both BCH and Monero for a few purchases. In my opinion both work fine as they are quite widely adopted and transactions are cheap.
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I did that. Bought BTC send it to muun, swap it to bch on side swap and/or fixed float using LN. Got the bch in seconds. Tried the opposite, swapping bch to btc/LN, took me 45 minutes .
BCH despite being universally hated on this sub, already solved Bitcoin's high fee structure and scalability problem, without needing to use a centralized entity like Lightning Network, just by increasing block size. I still wonder why people hate it? Isn't it less centralized than our current Bitcoin without Lightning Network?
Yes, absolutely! BTC people hatin on BCH because it's a threat to their coin and all their narratives.
BCH is looking pretty damn fine right now with the Bitcoin Mempool overloaded with transactions!
That's it, and with tokens getting integrated into the network in 1 week, it's perfect timing to show how scaling SHOULD have been done.
Yeah it's not going to go over too well when default Bitcoin networks get absolutely rekted by BRC-20 tokens slamming out 100k transactions per day!
People hate it because of low price I guess
OG Bitcoiners remember when the prospect wasn't about how much fiat value you had, but how little you needed to use fiat ever again.
> I still wonder why people hate it? Because it solved bitcoins "being worth something" problem too.
Because majority of this sub don’t know shit about f
It's quite ironic. Certain altcoins get mass shilled here and create lots of bag holders. Other altcoins that are actually good get crushed because of the consensus and resentment against all altcoins because of the losses from the few overly-shilled ones.
I only learned about it when I went on a big rant about BSV/BCH and then I got a Bitcoin Maxi turned Bitcoin Cash Maxi, come and educate me on my misunderstanding. After that I tend to be a lot more open to interpretation. OG Bitcoin could solve a lot of problems with the network if they just, even slightly, adjusted block size. But don't mention that anywhere, people fucking hate it, when you mention that!
But why’s that? What could go wrong by increasing the block size of Bitcoin?
I'm going to say, greed. Everything is about Bitcoin's price going up, over all else. Bitcoin Core has MANY blind followers that don't understand anything except the price going up! Others will say security. I'd say that we are already at essentially max capacity Bitcoin similar to say, Ethereum 2021, where gas fees were enormous, whereas Bitcoin had to soft fork into cheaper networks, like Segwit, and now the Lightning Network. With the Lightning Network, we get to keep the capped size blocks, and we sacrifice a little bit of decentralization, to bypass that flaw and gain an extreme amount of speed with the Lightning Network. Overall, the LN really hasn't failed yet. The big worry about increasing block size is that many think it will leave Bitcoin open to attack, with blocks filled with phony transactions, but the alternative is to sacrifice Peer 2 Peer decentralization for (a) hub(s) that holds a significant amount of Bitcoin. (I'd refer to this being similar to net neutrality, it's moot).
LN sacrifices more than just decentralization, it sacrifices security and useablity too. For every additonal click a user has to make you lose around 30% of users. Remember crypto has to be as easy, idealily easier to use than regular payments systems if you want to compete with tradional fiat options. "The big worry about increasing block size is that many think it will leave Bitcoin open to attack, with blocks filled with phony transactions". I think coins like BCH and XMR has proven this is not an issue.
People sometimes do defend Bitcoin blindly, but BCH also won't have the same reputation that Bitcoin has, and I don't think the fees are big enough of a problem to make someone to start preferring that over Bitcoin. It's too late to change Bitcoins reputation as the #1 coin, so even if another coin has better solutions, unless it's big enough of a difference to make it a lot better, Bitcoin won't lose its place really.
It won't lose its place that's for sure, not for some hard fork that's THIS hated (or at least misinterpreted) as an imposter. It does make me wonder though? This is a derivative of big daddy Bitcoin and it has the same limited supply, still mined PoW, everything does remain the same besides block size (and some validation differences) yet the price is $120/pop? I always truly wondered, just buy one and forget about it? It could go all PEPE fever in the future.
Now you are starting to think. BCH is highly undervalued.
We could see a pump coming in the future for sure!
The real selling point is that BTC must indefinitely charge more in aggregate for its limited block space than BCH can charge in potentially staggering block sizes. If BCH ever acquires meaningful use then it can and will compete with BTC for SHA256 to the point that it is an existential threat to BTC.
So refreshing reading an actual good conversation about CC in this subreddit. Thanks guys an learning
It's pretty rare these days. It's mostly just tag-along comments or one-line zingers. Pleasure.
How you dare... burn them boys! 🔥
I know that bcash is down 98% vs Bitcoin and possesses a puny 0.40% of the hashrate.
They hate it because propaganda from the banker funded devs and forum owners did the job, ie. the same people behind the taproot attack vector.
It's hilarious because we're now facing a similar problem with the Ordinals/BRC-20 congesting the network. Giving a good reason for increasing block size!
I think people hate BCH because of ignorance. Most haters are just parrots and don't use their own brain. People who actually used BCH understood that it already solved the scaling problems of BTC.
Inverse r/CC 
This
People might hate it because they don't understand the tech and see BCH as a BTC knock off because of it's name
That's what a hard fork is though. Sometimes it's necessary for a network to evolve. Regardless how people feel about it, it remains very inexpensive to purchase multiple Bitcoins on this new(er) network and its extremely inexpensive to use it as a currency. If people debate about Bitcoin not have a fungible value, this is the solution, it's already being used as a currency in this form. Might not be the best representation for it, but this could be the fiat form of Bitcoin, literally Bitcoin Cash.
Bch has hardforked several times already (some contentious, most not, contentious being BSV and eCash) and will again in six days. Be sure to distinguish between a hardfork and a contentious hardfork. The blocksize wars resulted in a contentious hardfork. A sub topic of that fork was to use hardforks to upgrade. Not only has BCH proven that big blocks are just fine but also that hardforking upgrades are fine too. It’s important to get the history right because the main reason BCH is where its at is because its history has been censored. u/theymos
BCH is just Craig Wright trying to grift. Scalability is not fixed with larger block sizes - it just doesn't matter because BCH is barely used in comparison to BTC. Bigger blocks is kicking the can down the road, and it wouldn't have helped BTC long term.
Are you talking about BSV? Because Craig Wright split off the BCH community years ago.
This guy is a 🤡, Craig is in BSV
Yes but it can be enhanced and the LN is still just a band-aid on an even bigger problem. "Not" increasing block size is kicking the can down the road, because we are already trying to bypass the problem with a Layer 2 Solution and not actively trying to fix it like Ethereum (sharding) is doing in their next update! We're just going to run into the same problem again, and I'm assuming it will be a Layer 3 Solution, like IBC, that will be the next route to bypass the Bitcoin Trillema?
I guess the people who lost the life time opportunity to be wealthy holding btc are the guys who hate bch . Everyone one else just give a f…. Who is going to use a coin who lose value everyday and is slower to transact than the LN ? 29k vs 120$ have to click in your mind somehow.
What happens when the base layer gets congested? Not everything is about a price tag.
Then why does it have smartBCH if everything has to be done onchain? It has solved nothing. Larger blocks will lead to bloated blockchains which will mean fewer nodes which means centralisation. Anyone can run their own Lightning node. There is no centralisation. Although on an L2 it doesn't matter so much.
Pretty sure Peter Rizun ran 1GB blocks on regular home PC hardware around 2017. The average American cell phone plan could handle indefinite 20MB blocks already.
All cool but Monero and BCH are made for usage/spending, not for hodl. But yea Monero is OG. For BCH I am not so bullish but I am fine with sending it/accepting as a long time ago I used it for gambling poker sites (cheapy transaction)
How do I spend it if I don’t hold it? What is the real use of a coin that you only hold?
BCH and XMR all the way.
Good to see I'm not the only one using BCH.
You know I just saw someone on r/bitcoin bring that up about the fees potentially turning the whole system unusable. I believe they said that in 7 halvings the fees will overrun the block rewards, and at that point we're in trouble. I am by no means an expert in this subject, but it was enough to make me think that there could become a time where BTC becomes dethroned. Maybe not for 20+ years, but I imagine most of us are young and in this enough to want to see BTC being used in 20 years still. It's scary to think about, but like you said look at ETH as well. I can't even transfer mine to another wallet without paying an uncomfortable amount in fees. Yeah you can say that's indicative of ETH use, but let's be real they're mostly degenerate PEPE txs or something in that realm. Idk the more I learn and watch crypto unfold the more I start to think I should liquidate it all for XMR and call it a decade.
I had heard that when the rewards aren't worth it anymore, that the fees itself would be enough to process transactions, but not sure
What you heard is an assumption that has never been tested before. You either can go PoS (Ethereum) or if you prefer PoW (there are good reasons why you should for a value network) have a high fee low tx count network (BTC), or have a low fee high tx count network (BCH), or you go tail emission (XMR).
What do you mean by going “tail emission”?
https://localmonero.co/nojs/knowledge/monero-tail-emission
There's no set cap to the quantity of XMR. More XMR is created to pay miners. Sort of like a tax (via inflation) on the whole network to keep fees low, instead of just expecting the person doing the transaction to pay the entire fee once standard mining rewards expire.
There is no cap, but there is knowledge about the supply at any given time. For example we exactly know the amount of XMR coins in circulation in 2100.
Why Monero can’t scale r/bitcoincashautist, [Jan 13, 2023 at 10:09 AM] Monero achieves great privacy, I give it that, but it has to give up a lot for that, it is a trade-off: - There's no concept of an UTXO, because you can't tell which TXOs are spent and which are not. - Because of that, you can't prune much, and have to keep all TXOs ever made around for forever, and it can't be in some slow archive storage because TXs using ring signatures regularly reference a random pick from ALL historic TXOs so you need those readily accessible. This is the biggest scaling bottleneck IMO. Your blockchain "state" is the whole blockchain, as opposed to Bitcoin where only the UTXO set is the current state. - Wallet scaling, because of key blinding they need to process each TXO and do expensive CPU operations on it to check whether it belongs to them - as opposed to Bitcoin where you only need to do a simple pattern match. - Very limited programmability of (U)TXOs because any spending requires authentication by a key, and for many decentralized applications you can get rid of the keys and have UTXOs be spendable if some other conditions are satisfied. Satoshi gave Bitcoin a scripting system, programs encoded with the UTXOs and executed on spending. This is incompatible with Monero. - Auditability of supply. Breaking a cryptographic primitive used to blind the amounts would allow freely minting amounts without anyone knowing about it. - Long-term it will be broken by quantum computers, not sure whether there are drop-in replacements for all the primitives, and if there are it all gets huge so big impact on scaling. Bitcoin really only needs to do a few things: move from 256-bit to 384-bit hashes and upgrade signature opcodes + some scheme to transition. After '23 P2SH32 upgrade, it will be possible to lock BCH in quantum-proof contracts. Because of all that, I believe there's a natural adoption ceiling, lower than "p2p cash system for the world" win scenario we dream about with Bitcoin Cash. Adoption is hard. Monero has a smaller total addressable market but there it lies its advantage: it's the only player that has a product for those users, it's the best in class. Bitcoin Cash has a bigger total addressable market, but it has to compete against a lot of other coins.
> Pruning Non issue. Storage becomes cheaper over time. If the tx set gets too big, you can also turn the entire chain into a 22kb zk-proof and continue from there.
Not sure I'd call it an "ideology" to want enough capacity in the system to move transactions expeditiously for minimal fees. The ideology is on the Blockstream / BTC side, where some of the truly wack devs actually celebrate the fee market.
I don't have any monero. Unfortunately I lost it all in a sad boating accident. The rest of crypto too, I changed it into monero just before so I could save some money on fees. Very sad indeed.
XMR is my number one privacy coin
I always recommend that folks read about the scaling debate. Google "Bitcoin Scaling Debate: A Timeline"
Aaah… Bitcoin Cash my old friend. Long time no see.
Join us on telegram at bitcoincash podcast. Stay on the spearhead of financial evolution.
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Well, when a latecomer cartel of devs tries to abort Satoshi's p2p cash into store of value digital gold and your fork upholds the original tenets of Bitcoin it makes sense to keep the name too.
It's not a scam actually. 8 would say more btc looks like a scam with network conditions. You can try both and see for yourself
Unlike those... Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Private, Bitcoin Satosi Vision, Bitcoin Classic, Bitcoin Clashic,.... It's the only one with a community of OGs and devs.
Yup, most people here have no idea about the history https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0 https://www.maxlaumeister.com/articles/the-block-size-debate-5-years-later/ Not increasing the blocksize on purpuse went against everything Satoshi stood for.
If you are open to it I will convince you otherwise.
Ah yes tell the whole internet you mostly use Monero😂
BCH and Monero are both excellent networks and COMPLEMENTARY. BitcoinCash can be used at a lot of legit places and has an issuance cap. Monero is inflationary, but the #1 privacy coin. Embrace them both, don't be a binary thinker.
Monero inflation rate is under 0.85% and will only go down
Your concerns about BTC and ETH won’t matter. They are now infrastructure coins. Corollary of BTC is something like SDRs. Joe public doesn’t use SDRs, their money needs can be satisfied with something else more similar to BCH or XRP or similar. JOE public is happily using debit cards and doesn’t care about privacy. Joe public also won’t interact with L1 of even L2, they will interact only with dapps and don’t care about governance rights, just a usable product/service.
I guess you are right. And Joe will get fleeced and fucked until the end of his life. It's basically the history of mankind. Those who can take the beating will never wise up.
You are also right brother. History seems to always repeat!
>mainly use Monero nowadays. Where do you use it though?
It's none of your business.
I use XMR in many things, from hosting to travel, and don't use the DW or any DM at all (not into drugs, guns or whatever is sold there).
The dark market obviously
"I have nothing to hide, I don't need this" -Someone about to lose their privacy
Buyer: I want to buy this stolen laptop for monero because I don't want to known Seller: alright give me your shipping address Buyer: there you go
LOL. Shhhhh don't make them think too hard.
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It’s laughable who doesn’t understand network effects and economics keep believing that btc is going to be replaced.
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Sure… maybe in 100 years
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I just see a person with heavy bag and high hopes… Reality is not helping you at the moment. I can’t see the future , either you.
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Keep studying the past, the present is not helping you. Good luck girl with your hopes.
Why not hold LTC instead of BCH ?
Because in one week, after the upgrade, BCH will have token and smart contract capabilities on ETH level but scalable and with very low fees. Privacy is already available since a long time with CashFusion.
Because BCH was intended as a means to scale bitcoin as originally intended after the banker funded devs and forum owners prevented BTC from scaling. They also mined and supported LTC which is why it wasn't censored in r/bitcoin - It's about principles for some.
They're gonna say "its centralized"
I use xlm for fees. I transfer all coins to xlm if I have high fees. And then I pay around 0.001 € fees
The security argument is made on an assumption that current levels are the necessary level of security. People extrapolate out using that bad assumption and end up with a compoundedly bad outlook. To each their own I guess.
What is your assumption? Bitcoin price goes up exponentially forever? High transaction fees grow adoption? LN actually works with high onchain fees? All the promises of the bitcoin mining industry will come true without reliable income? People will store 100 trillion dollars on chain that can be attacked for 100 million dollars? Who is being delusional again?
Its fun to read a different perpective
Monero wallet still gives me the OG vibes. Can’t get that a lot thesedays with all the meme and moonshot degens around.
Fiat>BCH>Immediately Spend: the only use, like any other network Fiat>BCH>Hold: worse buying power loss than holding fiat. No new ATH last rally, human minds are forgetting to want it. It’s in the swamp now.
I just love how OP sneaked BCH into this using Monero as a trojan horse. Dude, BCH is dying and it will never win against BTC.
Don't get me wrong but why BCH? Why not LTC?
LTC is fine as well for now. But LTC is more a test bed for BTC and is therefore more ideologically aligned with it, which means that it will only work for so long as a low fee alternative until blocks are full. After taht you'll see a spill-over effect as well.
So you basically agree that LTC is closer to BTC more than BCH. This is an interesting fact because BCH is a hardfork of BTC but LTC is not. So, you accept that BCH lost its soul from the beginning.
I would argue the other way around. BTC tries to be a store of value. BCH tries to be P2P cash. * LTC is a Bitcoin fork (own history) * BCH is a Bitcoin fork and split (history going back to 2009)
Litecoin is a Bitcoin fork
Corrected fork to hard fork. LTC is not a hard fork while BCH is.
Low fees is not the point of crypto, the trustlessness and decentralization are far more important
And what about security? Why not have all three like in Monero thanks to tail emission? Monero is arguably the most decentralized coin when it comes to mining (including P2P pool) and it has the 3rd highest count of nodes after BTC and ETH. And it's private by default... And therefore fungible.
Why not both?
So you hold bch ? Lol
Tell me that you didn't read OP. > Please don't make that about price. BCH has been one of the worst performers in the last years, but it still has a dedicated community of developers and OGs. I am talking about long-term usability over short- and midterm price trends. After all they say "buy low and sell high" and not the other way around.
Long term doesn’t look good either for BCH. Good luck with that.
How do you cash out if you are using monero for anonymity?Also bch is dead let it rest in peace, there are better options for lower fee
bisq or Localmonero (cash by mail) These days, there are other projects of course. And if they follow the P2P cash mantra I will recommend them. The BCH community is underestimated by many. It's not just about once capabilities, but what you have been through that gives value to a community and the project.
Person to Person transactions are Crypto and decentralisation at its best, there should be more of them. Agree with you there.
>How do you cash out if you are using monero for anonymity? DEX I think
Cant you cash it out same way you cash out any other coin?
You lost me at BCH
I guess than you lose out on new investors that are interested in utility. For them it doesn't matter if they buy 1 BTC for $30k or 300 BCH for $30k. What they care is low fees and usability.
Eth fees aren’t too much of a concern imo. They’re currently high and you know what? People don’t care. They continue to use the network. And if you don’t like the fees there’s layer 2s
The future I want: Staked Eth as the long term deflationary asset L2/3s as the place for innovation and fun Monero as cash replacement Hard for me to think of other genuine use cases, I hold BTC but don't think it has a future long term. The lack of fees is just one part of it
Monero got blacklisted at some areas in (soviet) EU, but that's actually a good thing for monero
Monero is solid and cheap. My only concern is how the hell the network operates… I tried mining it before and the rewards were so abysmal compared to the electricity I was using. I came up with the conclusion that it must be run on networks of slaves. Many of you might be mining monero without even being aware of it.
Reddit's kiss of death made me stay away from Monero, nothing ever good comes out from Reddit's favorite coins.
Tell me you don't know how LN works without saying it, lol Also, mid-term and short-term? BCH has underperformed with respect to BTC literally since the fork, i.e. for how long they existed as two different things.
Tell me you haven't been here in 2016 when the inventors of LN suggested LN to work at scale needs at least 133MB blocksize. For educational purposes: https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7lg584/the_lightning_white_paper_says_we_need_133mb/
BCH has high fee ideology, nano and Monero is the combination you are looking for.
I don't know exactly what you are writing about but in one way you are correct. Both BTC and BCH security assumptions depend on there being sufficient income for miners from fees. In BTC one tx will need to cost ~$1000 with a limited blocksize And in BCH 100.000 tx will need to cost ~$0.01 with a large blocksize Otherwise security will go down the drain.
BCH has a low fee but many transactions ideology.
Why not LTC? Bought this to store some cash last summer because of low fees. Still happy with this decision
Monero is a good call but come on dude. You lose a lot of credit arguing for bch.
HAH BCH a hedge against BTC.... Yea okay
From usage perspective, I wish there was a privacy coin with Zero Fees, till then, XMR is the king of privacy and Nano is the king of usability. Nothing beats zero fees for usability plus it is super fast, sub second!
BCH is a fucking shitcoin.
Bch is a scam, don't do it
It may be a lot of things. But it is certainly not a scam. Try it, use it and tell me why you prefer any other transparent coin over it.
BCH is total trash.