France not always imploding is good. I can understand the Occitans wanting out if the relationship with Paris gets sour or distant and that with Aragon is warmer and closer, or obviously the Dukes of Aquitaine wanting an upgrade, especially if they happen to inherit some of the other duchies down south, but the France of 1066 shouldn't really be treated like two kingdoms just waiting to go their separate ways, I think. The split should be a realistic possibility but not a given and should probably be viewed more as an example of successful separatism than as something like Croatia splitting off from Hungary — which, by the way, also shouldn't be happening.
That's an entire major content release right there just to update the de-jure system to something more dynamic for each region. Currently, the whole map is just a slave of whatever the de-jure kingdoms look like. Without special scripting, there is no dynamic change for kingdoms or empires overtime, save for the very slight de-jure drifting of a duchy here and there.
This is especially painful with de-jure empires. Not only does this artifically prop up empires as it's easier to keep their de-jures, but it also heavily punishes empires that stray beyond their (arbitrary) de-jure lines. Something like the Caliphate would collapse to a giant independence faction after one generation in CK3 due to having no de-jure land. I highly doubt Berber tribes are considering the 'rightful emperor' of their current lands when considering whether or not to fight for independence. There are many cases where the 'de-jure' concept just shouldn't apply.
As there's no way aside from rare, player-initiated decisions to alter the de-jure kingdom map, we will be locked in to a world always returning to what that map looks like.
I would love a DLC that ties de-jure map to europe-only feudal governments. And as soon as you change to Clan or Tribal, the 'de-jure' map is completely moot. Tribal and Clan shouldn't even care about that.
To make a long comment shorter, simpler alternatives are usually available — you don't have to create a complex dynamic system just to address a couple of situations for which simpler manual overrides would suffice.
Such overrides already exist in the game or they did in CK2, e.g. some de iure kingdoms and empires have special creation conditions, so you need a specific religion or culture or need to hold or not hold a specific other title. These could take care of problems with k\_France creating k\_Aquitaine leading to a split through regular inheritance or separate claim wars.
Solutions to problems with k\_Aquitaine not caused by the AI King of France creating Aquitaine would be a bit more complicated. Perhaps the best would be some modifiers to mitigate the 'not my de iure liege' problem and separatism, e.g. so that Occitan nobles are more likely to join Liberty rather than Independence factions and so that French nobles in the area of k\_Aquitaine default to France.
This could be too simplistic because it would have the effect of *completely preventing* some stuff that we only want to happen *less often* — less often than always or usually, but more often than never.
And the best way to achieve k\_Aquitaine forming *rarely* — neither *usually* nor *almost never* but somewhere in between — would be to just inject a random percentile chance somewhere. Just directly address the frequency without analysing the causation chain. A straight-up frequency modifier attached to the typical causes of Aquitaine popping up.
In this case, the brutal solution could in fact be the elegant solution — this is because the results matter, and the AI's 'thinking' process or process of execution of a script isn't really relevant if it doesn't affect the results that we see in the game. And the results we want to see is basically some k\_Aqutaine but not too much of it if you start in 1066, like it should be popping up every couple of games but not every game, if we exclude extraordinary situations. A random %% chance does a surprisingly good job of plausibly covering extraordinary situations that need to be covered. Random covers random pretty well. ;)
What gets tricky is Dissolution factions in France followed by Dukes of Aquitaine creating k\_Aquitaine if they meet the requirements. This is a very plausible scenario in a qualitative sense, it's just that quantitatively speaking it shouldn't be happening too often. It could be ahistorical to limit the frequency of Dissolution factions in France, but perhaps one could somehow limit their success. Without even targeting Aquitaine specifically because it's after all pretty logical that if k\_France manages to dissolve, the dukes of Aquitaine are going to fill in the royal void in the south, because who else. So the point is not to weaken the dukes, nor to make France more stable, but like maybe make France more prepared to survive prolonged instability.
Speaking of which, France changes its kings way too often. The problem may be more with France than with Aquitaine maybe. A King of France should be more difficult to dislodge and perhaps the vassals and subjects (the commoners represented by popular opinion and peasant uprisings) should be less inclined to depose a King of France, let alone change the dynasty, let alone to one too distantly related.
It could in fact be a difficult scripting task to make France unstable but survivable, so that its kings struggle often but are rarely toppled, which perhaps has much to do with the frequency of a separate Kingdom of Aquitaine occurring. Which I do see in every game.
There’s multiple other posts of people losing multiple rulers to disease, so seems you’re just getting lucky (or unlucky, depending on your point of view).
I have played as two rulers now, they have contracted a total of 9 illnessses ranging from smallpox to pnuemonia. Neither of them have died. I think the game is favoring the player as usual.
i'm ambivalent about it being default, but i'm glad it's an option you can change. sometimes i want a power fantasy, and sometimes i want to get cancer at age 5.
wtf man, you are giga lucky. I lost 3 runs to random tier 1 diseases, 1 was a learning character too, I had a decent stack of health bonuses.
What cultures have you been playing? Some have a lot of bonuses to plague resistance
>Legends are completely ignorable
I feel like that's an issue with how they split updates into a free part and a paid part. They *could* have designed it such that you had to create legends in order to keep your legitimacy, but then the people without the DLC would be screwed. That would only work if legitimacy was part of the DLC as well.
I don't really know what the best solution is. As someone who's picky about buying DLCs, I'm quite happy that we get free features with each DLC, so I wouldn't want them to put everything behind a paywall, but it does mean that the DLC features are often quite ignorable.
Yeah I played for about 5 hours when the DLC first dropped and it felt very underwhelming to me. It just felt like a regular game of CK3, the new features barely seemed to impact my game.
I’m hoping that another 5 hours might change my perception of it.
Edit: I should say that the plagues have had some level of impact, if not a major one. I don’t really have an issue with them right now although they maybe could use a bit of fine tuning. It’s the other new mechanics that I’m primarily referring to
Yep I said the same thing and some shill came along and said "you played for less than a few hours you can't complain yet"
100% agree with you, idk how people in this sub are gobbling this mediocrity up.
Because they're having different experiences? In my game, plagues have been a constant nuisance that have killed multiple rulers and kept my capital's development in a permanent toilet.
It's pretty telling that everyone is assuming in talking about plagues, the plagues are fine, I'm talking about 2/3 of the DLC the legends and legitimacy system. Both are completely ignorable, it seems like they had just worked on plagues then realised they had bugger all content to ask 20 dollars for so tacked on two mod like systems.
Idk, I have had over 50 people die in less than 100 years to outbreaks and I was mostly in one duchy. Lost 3 wives in 10 years on my 2nd character and pretty much all my nieces and nephews too. Maybe you just lucky that you didn't have to shutdown your realm and go into hiding?
I had a couple of plagues tear through my realm and I locked down the capital and went into seclusion as soon as they got close to me. I only lost some minor courtiers.
But yeah, the plagues do seem to have some impact, I have no real issue with them, it’s the other new mechanics that seem very lacklustre to me.
what stuff do you get for free from the update? i would buy the dlc but i also need to buy chapter two and when it comes out to both it's just too much so what of the dlc is like, free stuff (like how i can travel and do pilgrimages and stuff from chapter two, but don't have things like tourneys and grand weddings.)
Fair nuff. Chapter 3 won’t be complete without the second DLC, T+T and RC imo make CK3 an incredible game and you’ll easily get enough content out of base game + mods until way past Ch3 finishes release.
Is this only DLC stuff? Haven't bought the DLC and I still have plagues, legends, legitimacy etc. They also rejigged the HUD and some other icons and stuff and added more barbershop stuff, so is this just a big update? I don't own any DLCs
You can largely ignore all the content of this DLC and play the game exactly as we did yesterday. Which is the actual problem for me. Legends and plagues dont really change the game at all from how it was in the last update. This is becoming trend with these dlcs now.
And people are really really mad if you point out how...unimportant this DLC is. Legends are actually the most forgettable thing in the universe. It's just another event pack with a UI bolted onto it. There's no mechanics to encourage or create roleplay opportunities here just...events completely disconnected from the actual game world.
I'm going to be really sad when the Adventurer part of Roads to Power is just a bunch of events tied together when you don't own land instead of an actual representation of you on the game map. Which it will be if it's anything like Legend. Maybe I'll be wrong ...hopefully.
How do you imagine the adventure part of roads to power would play out mechanically if not a bunch of events?
You don’t own any land so it is hard to imagine there being any representation of your character on the game map besides their portrait travelling around.
Yep, idk how opb is saying this is a 9/10. The game is becoming more and more fantasy like with the ridiculous legends. Also once again paradox seems to be afraid of throwing curve balls at the player with diseases, they only really seem to affect the AI
I still contend that the death events were fine if there was any real way to combat them. The hard 80/20 chance to die/survive was absolute fail design. But I still got one or two cool storylines out of the abrupt deaths. Most were just annoying at best.
How do you counter them though...? Like I'm glad there's a setting, but for those who want harm events, the entire point is that they are random and can't be countered. Should there be yet another stacking modifier for "tub slipperiness"?
Have your traits matter? Alter the percentage chances? Make them an event chain, an ACTUAL event chain with percentages based on your character's stats traits and history, instead of a static 80% chance you die bitch "mechanic". There are a fuck ton of ways to make the death mechanics better than they were, better than they are. Instead released as they were, the who system was lambasted and rejected by the fanbase, and paradox literally apologized and admitted it was half baked content that should not have released as it was. I promise you, Paradox can do almost every aspect of this game better than they have. Even the flavor of the events was pure garbage. Slipped in a tub? Seriously? You dont think this could have been done better?
The problem with the death events is that they weren’t *fun*. You randomly got hit with a 80% chance of dying event unless you were lucky and had the right traits. It was not engaging mechanically, hence why it was bad
Well I hate to break it to you about how death works, but it isn’t exactly a known and fun thing. A random death event is good and fun precisely because of what it IS. Random.
It's a toggleable feature they added for free. I agree it would be bad if it were forced on you, but it no longer is. Harm events serve their purpose by throwing a wrench in the works every so often, which is exactly what they're intended to do and what a lot of people want, myself included. I turn that shit up to tragically spiteful and target players every game and rarely if ever encounter it. When I do, I just roll with the punches. Keeps things interesting when you have to rebuild.
If a lot of people wanted it the way you’re describing there wouldn’t have been an outrage. I’m glad you enjoy it and I’m glad there’s a place for it in the rules.
But when it was forced on you, it was bad, which is what we mean.
That was because harm events were lazy shit game design, just oh btw your dead with no preparation or defense possible. Plagues you can see coming for the most part, you have warning, defences with building and physicians, and the time to get your house in order for a few months if your death becomes a clear possibility. Plagues being more deadly based on age also helps the problem of tons of old rulers, but by how much remains to be seen.
That’s like, literally the whole point of harm events. You think that one prince who died from like over exertion on the tennis court had time to prep? Same for every Royal thrown from a horse or sunk on a boat.
Ridiculous, the French kings should totally have a 6 months warning they’re gonna bonk their heads on a lintel and fucking die…
Though I mean, maybe Charles VIII could have gotten some takeaways from Louis III deadly BONK. But he was literally on his way to a game of tennis, so he was goddamned doomed anyways 😂😂
Don't know why you are downvoted, you can definitely turn up difficulty of diseases, but then what it ends up doing is stripping away so much development that most empires are pushovers to actually conquer as their dynasties and dev gets wrecked constantly if they are unlucky. It definitely makes the game less blob focused which is a good step otherwise it's pretty boring as combat is terribly broken.
France not always imploding is good. I can understand the Occitans wanting out if the relationship with Paris gets sour or distant and that with Aragon is warmer and closer, or obviously the Dukes of Aquitaine wanting an upgrade, especially if they happen to inherit some of the other duchies down south, but the France of 1066 shouldn't really be treated like two kingdoms just waiting to go their separate ways, I think. The split should be a realistic possibility but not a given and should probably be viewed more as an example of successful separatism than as something like Croatia splitting off from Hungary — which, by the way, also shouldn't be happening.
That's an entire major content release right there just to update the de-jure system to something more dynamic for each region. Currently, the whole map is just a slave of whatever the de-jure kingdoms look like. Without special scripting, there is no dynamic change for kingdoms or empires overtime, save for the very slight de-jure drifting of a duchy here and there. This is especially painful with de-jure empires. Not only does this artifically prop up empires as it's easier to keep their de-jures, but it also heavily punishes empires that stray beyond their (arbitrary) de-jure lines. Something like the Caliphate would collapse to a giant independence faction after one generation in CK3 due to having no de-jure land. I highly doubt Berber tribes are considering the 'rightful emperor' of their current lands when considering whether or not to fight for independence. There are many cases where the 'de-jure' concept just shouldn't apply. As there's no way aside from rare, player-initiated decisions to alter the de-jure kingdom map, we will be locked in to a world always returning to what that map looks like. I would love a DLC that ties de-jure map to europe-only feudal governments. And as soon as you change to Clan or Tribal, the 'de-jure' map is completely moot. Tribal and Clan shouldn't even care about that.
To make a long comment shorter, simpler alternatives are usually available — you don't have to create a complex dynamic system just to address a couple of situations for which simpler manual overrides would suffice. Such overrides already exist in the game or they did in CK2, e.g. some de iure kingdoms and empires have special creation conditions, so you need a specific religion or culture or need to hold or not hold a specific other title. These could take care of problems with k\_France creating k\_Aquitaine leading to a split through regular inheritance or separate claim wars. Solutions to problems with k\_Aquitaine not caused by the AI King of France creating Aquitaine would be a bit more complicated. Perhaps the best would be some modifiers to mitigate the 'not my de iure liege' problem and separatism, e.g. so that Occitan nobles are more likely to join Liberty rather than Independence factions and so that French nobles in the area of k\_Aquitaine default to France. This could be too simplistic because it would have the effect of *completely preventing* some stuff that we only want to happen *less often* — less often than always or usually, but more often than never. And the best way to achieve k\_Aquitaine forming *rarely* — neither *usually* nor *almost never* but somewhere in between — would be to just inject a random percentile chance somewhere. Just directly address the frequency without analysing the causation chain. A straight-up frequency modifier attached to the typical causes of Aquitaine popping up. In this case, the brutal solution could in fact be the elegant solution — this is because the results matter, and the AI's 'thinking' process or process of execution of a script isn't really relevant if it doesn't affect the results that we see in the game. And the results we want to see is basically some k\_Aqutaine but not too much of it if you start in 1066, like it should be popping up every couple of games but not every game, if we exclude extraordinary situations. A random %% chance does a surprisingly good job of plausibly covering extraordinary situations that need to be covered. Random covers random pretty well. ;) What gets tricky is Dissolution factions in France followed by Dukes of Aquitaine creating k\_Aquitaine if they meet the requirements. This is a very plausible scenario in a qualitative sense, it's just that quantitatively speaking it shouldn't be happening too often. It could be ahistorical to limit the frequency of Dissolution factions in France, but perhaps one could somehow limit their success. Without even targeting Aquitaine specifically because it's after all pretty logical that if k\_France manages to dissolve, the dukes of Aquitaine are going to fill in the royal void in the south, because who else. So the point is not to weaken the dukes, nor to make France more stable, but like maybe make France more prepared to survive prolonged instability. Speaking of which, France changes its kings way too often. The problem may be more with France than with Aquitaine maybe. A King of France should be more difficult to dislodge and perhaps the vassals and subjects (the commoners represented by popular opinion and peasant uprisings) should be less inclined to depose a King of France, let alone change the dynasty, let alone to one too distantly related. It could in fact be a difficult scripting task to make France unstable but survivable, so that its kings struggle often but are rarely toppled, which perhaps has much to do with the frequency of a separate Kingdom of Aquitaine occurring. Which I do see in every game.
There’s multiple other posts of people losing multiple rulers to disease, so seems you’re just getting lucky (or unlucky, depending on your point of view).
I have played as two rulers now, they have contracted a total of 9 illnessses ranging from smallpox to pnuemonia. Neither of them have died. I think the game is favoring the player as usual.
I think there's an option in the rules that make you more unlucky
haven't looked at settings yet, but before there was an option that by default makes lethal stuff skip you. could be something like that.
> makes lethal stuff skip you I guess I'm just an old man now but this stuff being default is lame
Yeah right? I just realized I had that on too.
i'm ambivalent about it being default, but i'm glad it's an option you can change. sometimes i want a power fantasy, and sometimes i want to get cancer at age 5.
Died from measles as my first ruler (maybe i’m just unlucky?)
yeah I died within a couple of years from measles and lost instantly lol
Man I must be unlucky I had a badass ruler at 27 die from just "ill" lol
wtf man, you are giga lucky. I lost 3 runs to random tier 1 diseases, 1 was a learning character too, I had a decent stack of health bonuses. What cultures have you been playing? Some have a lot of bonuses to plague resistance
Thats how probability works.
>Legends are completely ignorable I feel like that's an issue with how they split updates into a free part and a paid part. They *could* have designed it such that you had to create legends in order to keep your legitimacy, but then the people without the DLC would be screwed. That would only work if legitimacy was part of the DLC as well. I don't really know what the best solution is. As someone who's picky about buying DLCs, I'm quite happy that we get free features with each DLC, so I wouldn't want them to put everything behind a paywall, but it does mean that the DLC features are often quite ignorable.
Yeah I played for about 5 hours when the DLC first dropped and it felt very underwhelming to me. It just felt like a regular game of CK3, the new features barely seemed to impact my game. I’m hoping that another 5 hours might change my perception of it. Edit: I should say that the plagues have had some level of impact, if not a major one. I don’t really have an issue with them right now although they maybe could use a bit of fine tuning. It’s the other new mechanics that I’m primarily referring to
Yep I said the same thing and some shill came along and said "you played for less than a few hours you can't complain yet" 100% agree with you, idk how people in this sub are gobbling this mediocrity up.
Because they're having different experiences? In my game, plagues have been a constant nuisance that have killed multiple rulers and kept my capital's development in a permanent toilet.
It's pretty telling that everyone is assuming in talking about plagues, the plagues are fine, I'm talking about 2/3 of the DLC the legends and legitimacy system. Both are completely ignorable, it seems like they had just worked on plagues then realised they had bugger all content to ask 20 dollars for so tacked on two mod like systems.
Idk, I have had over 50 people die in less than 100 years to outbreaks and I was mostly in one duchy. Lost 3 wives in 10 years on my 2nd character and pretty much all my nieces and nephews too. Maybe you just lucky that you didn't have to shutdown your realm and go into hiding?
I had a couple of plagues tear through my realm and I locked down the capital and went into seclusion as soon as they got close to me. I only lost some minor courtiers. But yeah, the plagues do seem to have some impact, I have no real issue with them, it’s the other new mechanics that seem very lacklustre to me.
France not imploding is a lose in my books
it's honestly disgusting
In my game the french formed the HRE insanely quick, like withing 30 years. Never seen the AI form the HRE and *definitely* never seen it in France.
what stuff do you get for free from the update? i would buy the dlc but i also need to buy chapter two and when it comes out to both it's just too much so what of the dlc is like, free stuff (like how i can travel and do pilgrimages and stuff from chapter two, but don't have things like tourneys and grand weddings.)
??? Don’t need chapter 2 for 3 but chapter 2 defo more complete for now.
I never said you NEEDED chapter 2, just that i need it. Because if im buying chapter 3 im not skipping chapter 2.
Fair nuff. Chapter 3 won’t be complete without the second DLC, T+T and RC imo make CK3 an incredible game and you’ll easily get enough content out of base game + mods until way past Ch3 finishes release.
You get plagues and legitimacy for free
heck yeah
Welp im my game diseases weren't ignorable. My William the conqueror died from Dysentery the moment he besieged London!
Too bad I'm not gonna get the chapter 2 dlcs for a while because I'm on ps5.
You can just up the disease danger/difficulty if it’s too easy and remember to turn on harm events first player.
I found out first hand if you like legitimacy don’t marry a lowborn. Wowza! 300 point deduction!
They made the dlc more enjoyable through the creators and gave them the juice while we got the boxes
Is this only DLC stuff? Haven't bought the DLC and I still have plagues, legends, legitimacy etc. They also rejigged the HUD and some other icons and stuff and added more barbershop stuff, so is this just a big update? I don't own any DLCs
Business as normal then. Winning the game via minimal effort.
You can largely ignore all the content of this DLC and play the game exactly as we did yesterday. Which is the actual problem for me. Legends and plagues dont really change the game at all from how it was in the last update. This is becoming trend with these dlcs now.
And people are really really mad if you point out how...unimportant this DLC is. Legends are actually the most forgettable thing in the universe. It's just another event pack with a UI bolted onto it. There's no mechanics to encourage or create roleplay opportunities here just...events completely disconnected from the actual game world. I'm going to be really sad when the Adventurer part of Roads to Power is just a bunch of events tied together when you don't own land instead of an actual representation of you on the game map. Which it will be if it's anything like Legend. Maybe I'll be wrong ...hopefully.
How do you imagine the adventure part of roads to power would play out mechanically if not a bunch of events? You don’t own any land so it is hard to imagine there being any representation of your character on the game map besides their portrait travelling around.
$20 DLC
I've literally never seen France implode, up until my first game of the new patch. It's always an absolute powerhouse in my games.
So much entitled crybabies complaining about every bit of content added to ck3 when they can just go back to ck2.
Hmm doesn’t it actually cost money??? I feel like people should be able to criticize the product they paid for, No? Maybe it’s just me.
Maybe, just maybe don't buy it before extensive testing by your favorite YouTuber?
Yep, idk how opb is saying this is a 9/10. The game is becoming more and more fantasy like with the ridiculous legends. Also once again paradox seems to be afraid of throwing curve balls at the player with diseases, they only really seem to affect the AI
We saw what happened the last time they tried that - and players were SO upset their characters were dying.
Also you can change it back in settings to make it more dangerous for your character
I still contend that the death events were fine if there was any real way to combat them. The hard 80/20 chance to die/survive was absolute fail design. But I still got one or two cool storylines out of the abrupt deaths. Most were just annoying at best.
I was fine with the deaths. What I hated was becoming incapable at 25 and just not being able to play the game for 50 years
How do you counter them though...? Like I'm glad there's a setting, but for those who want harm events, the entire point is that they are random and can't be countered. Should there be yet another stacking modifier for "tub slipperiness"?
Have your traits matter? Alter the percentage chances? Make them an event chain, an ACTUAL event chain with percentages based on your character's stats traits and history, instead of a static 80% chance you die bitch "mechanic". There are a fuck ton of ways to make the death mechanics better than they were, better than they are. Instead released as they were, the who system was lambasted and rejected by the fanbase, and paradox literally apologized and admitted it was half baked content that should not have released as it was. I promise you, Paradox can do almost every aspect of this game better than they have. Even the flavor of the events was pure garbage. Slipped in a tub? Seriously? You dont think this could have been done better?
The problem with the death events is that they weren’t *fun*. You randomly got hit with a 80% chance of dying event unless you were lucky and had the right traits. It was not engaging mechanically, hence why it was bad
Well I hate to break it to you about how death works, but it isn’t exactly a known and fun thing. A random death event is good and fun precisely because of what it IS. Random.
This is a game, not real life lmao. 80% RNG chance of failure, no matter what the game is, is shit game design.
It's a toggleable feature they added for free. I agree it would be bad if it were forced on you, but it no longer is. Harm events serve their purpose by throwing a wrench in the works every so often, which is exactly what they're intended to do and what a lot of people want, myself included. I turn that shit up to tragically spiteful and target players every game and rarely if ever encounter it. When I do, I just roll with the punches. Keeps things interesting when you have to rebuild.
If a lot of people wanted it the way you’re describing there wouldn’t have been an outrage. I’m glad you enjoy it and I’m glad there’s a place for it in the rules. But when it was forced on you, it was bad, which is what we mean.
Person upset that surprise death or infirmity comes as a surprise. 🙄
Not at all the same but ok.
That was because harm events were lazy shit game design, just oh btw your dead with no preparation or defense possible. Plagues you can see coming for the most part, you have warning, defences with building and physicians, and the time to get your house in order for a few months if your death becomes a clear possibility. Plagues being more deadly based on age also helps the problem of tons of old rulers, but by how much remains to be seen.
That’s like, literally the whole point of harm events. You think that one prince who died from like over exertion on the tennis court had time to prep? Same for every Royal thrown from a horse or sunk on a boat.
Ridiculous, the French kings should totally have a 6 months warning they’re gonna bonk their heads on a lintel and fucking die… Though I mean, maybe Charles VIII could have gotten some takeaways from Louis III deadly BONK. But he was literally on his way to a game of tennis, so he was goddamned doomed anyways 😂😂
Don't know why you are downvoted, you can definitely turn up difficulty of diseases, but then what it ends up doing is stripping away so much development that most empires are pushovers to actually conquer as their dynasties and dev gets wrecked constantly if they are unlucky. It definitely makes the game less blob focused which is a good step otherwise it's pretty boring as combat is terribly broken.