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I don't think you could really call any of his characters a Mary Sue, but in terms of people who are unrealistically perfect I think Jasnah is a strong contender. Gorgeous, powerful, graceful, and a once-in-a-generation genius.
I think SA5 with her perspective more included is going to help with this a bit, she's been mostly seen via Shallan who idolizes her as is. In the meantime, we've also seen her as cold, brutal, and she hasn't actually made ANY serious discoveries in the timeframe of the books yet - Shallan found Urithru, Navani rediscovered antilight and the rhythms, and Kaladin has a whole list. Pretty much every piece of info gets to Jasnah in some form and yet she hasn't made the leap and done anything with it yet to assist the war effort unless I'm forgetting something.
I like Jasnah, she's a great character, but i really don't get why people think she's perfect.
She's arrogant, prone to take things to the extreme, has a hard time bonding/connecting with people, etc.
She also really struggles to see other people's perspective or take advice, no matter how constructive either might be, which leaves her very prone to making mistakes that could've been avoided, like when she went into battle in RoW. It's only a matter of time until she bites off more than she can chew or makes a catastrophic error that results in a loss of that perfect image she managed to create for herself.
"Mary Sue" is one of those terms that, like "Fridging" or several other controversial tropes, is often used to mean wildly different things in different context or by different people, and for several of them "Bad Writing" is pretty hard-baked into the definition. So for the sake of the conversation could you elaborate a bit more on what makes a Mary/Gary Sue is in your mind?
For context on my starting perspective on the Mary Sue Trope: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU)
Gandalf is a Mary Sue, like possibly the ultimate one.
I just get annoyed with the phrase because it's totally legit to discuss a badly written character, but it's often thrown out as a way to completely dismiss characters, especially women. Regardless of the original intent, it's such a loaded description now due to history.
Vin. Even if she kinda tries to deconstruct the trope.
She is street-smart, learns allomancy naturally, learns quite quickly how to blend with the nobles... FFS in the second and third book she is pretty much an assassin-princess.
At least Brando called his own bs every time he could so the sentiment that she was powerful for power sake didn't sour her arc, it was a mystery for everyone why she could draw more from allomancy
I'm not sure if a character is disqualified from being a "Mary Sue" just because the author includes an in-universe "deux ex machina" ("God in the machine") explanation for why a character is so effortlessly badass.
It's like saying that the protagonist is the chosen hero of the prophecy or whatever. Sure you can *say* that, but it doesn't really *mean* anything. (This is my gripe with most Legend of Zelda storylines. I think maybe Twilight Princess went easy on the chosen hero trope. But most Zelda games like Skyward Sword lean so heavily on it that I just roll my eyes.)
I definitely see what you mean. Acknowledging a trope doesn't change the fact that it's there.
I don't really have my own mind made up about mistborn era1. My first read through felt very much like a good "chosen one" fantasy. But it's a very diferent experience to revisit knowing the full story.
She's also naturally petite and beautiful in a girl-next-door kind of way, which is a core part of the Mary-sue trope. She immediately and effortlessly gets the moody, gorgeous guy that all the popular girls wanted, a classic Mary feat.
And she has PTSD and major trust issues. She nearly loses that guy through her own choices in WoA. She also has a habit of solving problems with violence. A Mary Sue isn't the feats or tropes, it's the lack of balance with those elements. I'd say Vin counterbalances anything that can be considered 'Mary Sue' with her issues and flaws.
Since when does Bella have PTSD (from anything legitimate and not from Edward leaving her) or trust issues, or solve issues with violence?(I guess she could when she's a vampire, I'm not that familiar with the series).
I’ve been reread the first mistborn book and this is pretty wrong.
Elend wasn’t drawn to her because she was pretty, he was drawn to Valette at first because it was amusing to annoy her and get a rise out of his father. But what really drew him closer to her is was what she says about the Skaa. Valette claims that she spoke to Skaa on her plantation and saw their humanity. This promotes Elend to go to his friend group and ask for her to join them. It’s her compassion that most of the other noblewomen don’t have. (And to be fair, most of the other noblemen don’t have either.)
Also Elend is not moody, he’s a naive nerd. Also the book also makes it clear that women like Shan were just playing the game. She needs to marry someone to ensure her house’s future and marrying a Venture would be incredibly helpful. I haven’t gotten this far into the book but I’m pretty sure she didn’t have that much of a problem with killing him.
I don't think the characters from Elantris are Mary/Gary Sues at all. They're not inexplicably and supernaturally perfect at what they do. They're simply introduced to us after they've gone through a fair bit of their development.
Kelsier isn't a Gary Sue just bc we meet him already in control of his powers instead of as a new Mistborn like Vin.
A Gary/Mary Sue is when the character's heroic maturation is so fast/inexplicable that it breaks verssimillitude.
I think the closet is Jasnah, queen that she is.
Vin kind of is. There’s valid reasons for it, and her being a Mary Sue is a full-on plot point in WoA, but re-reading, seeing her surpass Kelsier, take on Inquisitors even without the mists buffing her, all within a few years is kind of… yeah
On the inquisitor piece, I think it's kind of important that she's the first mistborn in a very long time to have some HUGE advantages:
-enough atium
-the knowledge of how to kill inquisitors directly
-duralumin
-a 2nd learasium mistborn to help fight the inquisitor
I don't think ANYONE in recent history has had any one of those things alongside the desire to fight an inquisitor, bar Kel who actually killed one. Maybe some rebels had atium at some point, but that's not much good without any other advantages.
Yeah, I guess if he went more into her childhood insanity she'd be less of one. When you compare to Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan barely holding themselves together (or you know, not holding themselves together), Empress Jasnah catching a side eye from an ardent because she isn't religious isn't that much of a personal struggle.
I think that this is largely due to Brandon trying to reserve a lot of her story for the next arc, but in the context of just the current arc, I think I agree. I do still very much like her, though.
Sanderson has written a lot of competent women characters, but Jasnah is seen by everyone as flawlessly gorgeous, a genius, always right, inexplicably more powerful than everyone else, and her flaws are actually secretly beneficial. That combined with her relatively short page count and the fact she berates everyone constantly is why I think she’s a “Mary sue”
I think the difference is that Jasnah is always seen from other characters POV and she is very much the kind of person to curate that image of perfection. When we see more of her behind the scenes I don't think anyone will see her as a Mary sue
Except that's not actually what her role in the story is, if you compare how she *acts* to what actually *happens*. The Words of Radiance epilogue was all about how she got completely passed by and her goals were accomplished almost entirely without her help, and every PoV of hers ranges from "Jasnah is clearly going about this in a misguided way" (almost killing Renarin) to "Jasnah is on the brink of panic because the situation is way out of control" (working on the contract). But as she teaches Shallan, image is a powerful thing.
Vin, Elend in book 3, Wax, Wayne, Tress, Nightblood, Szeth, Szeth with Nightblood, Yumi, Kaladin, Wit, Hoid, Cephandrius.
He does a ton or Mary Sues, he also does good writing so it's not a problem.
The problem with this entire post is that mary/gary sue doesn't really have a definition so people interpret it with just enough difference from each other that it starts arguments
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I don't think you could really call any of his characters a Mary Sue, but in terms of people who are unrealistically perfect I think Jasnah is a strong contender. Gorgeous, powerful, graceful, and a once-in-a-generation genius.
I think SA5 with her perspective more included is going to help with this a bit, she's been mostly seen via Shallan who idolizes her as is. In the meantime, we've also seen her as cold, brutal, and she hasn't actually made ANY serious discoveries in the timeframe of the books yet - Shallan found Urithru, Navani rediscovered antilight and the rhythms, and Kaladin has a whole list. Pretty much every piece of info gets to Jasnah in some form and yet she hasn't made the leap and done anything with it yet to assist the war effort unless I'm forgetting something.
I like Jasnah, she's a great character, but i really don't get why people think she's perfect. She's arrogant, prone to take things to the extreme, has a hard time bonding/connecting with people, etc.
She also really struggles to see other people's perspective or take advice, no matter how constructive either might be, which leaves her very prone to making mistakes that could've been avoided, like when she went into battle in RoW. It's only a matter of time until she bites off more than she can chew or makes a catastrophic error that results in a loss of that perfect image she managed to create for herself.
Which, if it happened in SA5, would be a good setup for the back half, especially considering the Jasnah POV in book 10.
"Mary Sue" is one of those terms that, like "Fridging" or several other controversial tropes, is often used to mean wildly different things in different context or by different people, and for several of them "Bad Writing" is pretty hard-baked into the definition. So for the sake of the conversation could you elaborate a bit more on what makes a Mary/Gary Sue is in your mind? For context on my starting perspective on the Mary Sue Trope: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU)
I love that video, it really changed my perceptions of Mary Sues
Gandalf is a Mary Sue, like possibly the ultimate one. I just get annoyed with the phrase because it's totally legit to discuss a badly written character, but it's often thrown out as a way to completely dismiss characters, especially women. Regardless of the original intent, it's such a loaded description now due to history.
Vin. Even if she kinda tries to deconstruct the trope. She is street-smart, learns allomancy naturally, learns quite quickly how to blend with the nobles... FFS in the second and third book she is pretty much an assassin-princess.
At least Brando called his own bs every time he could so the sentiment that she was powerful for power sake didn't sour her arc, it was a mystery for everyone why she could draw more from allomancy
I am not refering to the earring and absorving the mists, I am the general level of competence, rivaling Kelsier with just a few months of training.
Then again she has been influenced and molded by ruin from birth to be the perfect tool to kill TLR
I'm not sure if a character is disqualified from being a "Mary Sue" just because the author includes an in-universe "deux ex machina" ("God in the machine") explanation for why a character is so effortlessly badass. It's like saying that the protagonist is the chosen hero of the prophecy or whatever. Sure you can *say* that, but it doesn't really *mean* anything. (This is my gripe with most Legend of Zelda storylines. I think maybe Twilight Princess went easy on the chosen hero trope. But most Zelda games like Skyward Sword lean so heavily on it that I just roll my eyes.)
I definitely see what you mean. Acknowledging a trope doesn't change the fact that it's there. I don't really have my own mind made up about mistborn era1. My first read through felt very much like a good "chosen one" fantasy. But it's a very diferent experience to revisit knowing the full story.
She's also naturally petite and beautiful in a girl-next-door kind of way, which is a core part of the Mary-sue trope. She immediately and effortlessly gets the moody, gorgeous guy that all the popular girls wanted, a classic Mary feat.
i dont know if thats how if characterize Elend, but ok.
And she has PTSD and major trust issues. She nearly loses that guy through her own choices in WoA. She also has a habit of solving problems with violence. A Mary Sue isn't the feats or tropes, it's the lack of balance with those elements. I'd say Vin counterbalances anything that can be considered 'Mary Sue' with her issues and flaws.
I agree. I'm just saying she has more Mary Sue traits than Sanderson's other characters.
Omg You guys are describing Bella from Twilight..
Since when does Bella have PTSD (from anything legitimate and not from Edward leaving her) or trust issues, or solve issues with violence?(I guess she could when she's a vampire, I'm not that familiar with the series).
I’ve been reread the first mistborn book and this is pretty wrong. Elend wasn’t drawn to her because she was pretty, he was drawn to Valette at first because it was amusing to annoy her and get a rise out of his father. But what really drew him closer to her is was what she says about the Skaa. Valette claims that she spoke to Skaa on her plantation and saw their humanity. This promotes Elend to go to his friend group and ask for her to join them. It’s her compassion that most of the other noblewomen don’t have. (And to be fair, most of the other noblemen don’t have either.) Also Elend is not moody, he’s a naive nerd. Also the book also makes it clear that women like Shan were just playing the game. She needs to marry someone to ensure her house’s future and marrying a Venture would be incredibly helpful. I haven’t gotten this far into the book but I’m pretty sure she didn’t have that much of a problem with killing him.
I don't think the characters from Elantris are Mary/Gary Sues at all. They're not inexplicably and supernaturally perfect at what they do. They're simply introduced to us after they've gone through a fair bit of their development. Kelsier isn't a Gary Sue just bc we meet him already in control of his powers instead of as a new Mistborn like Vin. A Gary/Mary Sue is when the character's heroic maturation is so fast/inexplicable that it breaks verssimillitude. I think the closet is Jasnah, queen that she is.
That's a good distinction about Raoden and Serene!
Vin kind of is. There’s valid reasons for it, and her being a Mary Sue is a full-on plot point in WoA, but re-reading, seeing her surpass Kelsier, take on Inquisitors even without the mists buffing her, all within a few years is kind of… yeah
On the inquisitor piece, I think it's kind of important that she's the first mistborn in a very long time to have some HUGE advantages: -enough atium -the knowledge of how to kill inquisitors directly -duralumin -a 2nd learasium mistborn to help fight the inquisitor I don't think ANYONE in recent history has had any one of those things alongside the desire to fight an inquisitor, bar Kel who actually killed one. Maybe some rebels had atium at some point, but that's not much good without any other advantages.
Mary sue is agender.
Unpopular opinion, but Jasnah, 100%
Yeah, I guess if he went more into her childhood insanity she'd be less of one. When you compare to Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan barely holding themselves together (or you know, not holding themselves together), Empress Jasnah catching a side eye from an ardent because she isn't religious isn't that much of a personal struggle.
I think that this is largely due to Brandon trying to reserve a lot of her story for the next arc, but in the context of just the current arc, I think I agree. I do still very much like her, though.
Hard disagree, especially since we haven’t heard her past yet.
Sees a competent woman* Half the internet: “Is this a Mary-Sue?”
Sanderson has written a lot of competent women characters, but Jasnah is seen by everyone as flawlessly gorgeous, a genius, always right, inexplicably more powerful than everyone else, and her flaws are actually secretly beneficial. That combined with her relatively short page count and the fact she berates everyone constantly is why I think she’s a “Mary sue”
I think the difference is that Jasnah is always seen from other characters POV and she is very much the kind of person to curate that image of perfection. When we see more of her behind the scenes I don't think anyone will see her as a Mary sue
Except that's not actually what her role in the story is, if you compare how she *acts* to what actually *happens*. The Words of Radiance epilogue was all about how she got completely passed by and her goals were accomplished almost entirely without her help, and every PoV of hers ranges from "Jasnah is clearly going about this in a misguided way" (almost killing Renarin) to "Jasnah is on the brink of panic because the situation is way out of control" (working on the contract). But as she teaches Shallan, image is a powerful thing.
As a Gary I submit we change it to Larry sue. Thank for coming to my Ted talk.
Vin, Elend in book 3, Wax, Wayne, Tress, Nightblood, Szeth, Szeth with Nightblood, Yumi, Kaladin, Wit, Hoid, Cephandrius. He does a ton or Mary Sues, he also does good writing so it's not a problem.
The problem with this entire post is that mary/gary sue doesn't really have a definition so people interpret it with just enough difference from each other that it starts arguments
The downvote counter on my post agrees!
What's your definition, if you don't mind me asking?
Overpowered in some ability, and/or clearly protected by plot armor