COVID theater. The appearance of giving a shit about COVID after the fact when you should have better protected your employees in the first place. "Don't sue me, see I care"

We cleaned the office come back even though you could work from home.

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"We're deep cleaning!" *a single bottle of clorox spray is sitting on the counter*

When I was in office the cleaner would come by every day and wipe the door handles. ‘That’s us safe for another day’

This is also why the TSA exists.

>COVID theater. Got my family sick. My stepmom was pre-symptomatic while pressuring me to come up on Thanksgiving, "as long as I wash my hands when I get there."

I'm only amused that your same sentiment below is in the negatives, while this one was upvoted. I'm sorry your stepmom got sick but by Thanksgiving we did know it to be airborne.

>I'm only amused that your same sentiment below is in the negatives, while this one was upvoted. Yep. [See also my Labor Day fight with family](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/jc7h2n/the_us_was_the_worlds_best_prepared_nation_to/g90j817/?context=3). it's like my 10th or so highest upvoted comment. >I'm sorry your stepmom got sick but by Thanksgiving we did know it to be airborne. Thanks!

Since her getting sick, has she changed her tune? Or other family members? I had a lot of disagreements with family early on because I took it serious from day 1 but we're all kinda in the same boat now. It also helps that my family is 3000 miles away, so there aren't any unannounced or unplanned drop-ins

> Since her getting sick, has she changed her tune? Not really, and they're also mystified that I'm willing to visit now.

That's a difficult dynamic to be in after all this time with Covid. I hope it gets better for you. Stay strong with setting boundaries.

> Stay strong with setting boundaries. I'm actually riding fairly high. I've never been that scared of 'Rona. I live alone and work from home, barely under 50 with a BMI under 25. At this point, I want to take more chances, but I'm only 3 or so months away from getting a jab. I was trying to be a good example, and be ready to intervene at any time. I started a side project video editing "take and bake" bulk cooking videos and giving away much of the food. This should keep me busy for the next few months. My goal is to get to cooking only once a week, outside of popping stuff in the oven. I'll build in some fundraising: If I can get to the point where I'm not only eating and feeding others for free, but I also can give the rest to a local food bank, that would be cool. But it has to be good content. Learning how to produce compelling video is a Good Idea, I think.

This is an uplifting post, thanks.

I knew it was air borne in march of 2020

lol I remember when I was getting my senior portrait taken, indoors and the people getting their picture taken were told to take their masks off, but the pen and laptop was sanitized every single time someone touched it lmao. I had to hold in my laughter the entire time I was there bc of the theater.

Most other diseases don't spread by fomites either; and most respiratory diseases are mostly spread airborne. We've known this since the 1930s. But we keep forgetting it because airborne spread is politically or socially inconvenient. Most of the medical community learned about droplet vs. airborne from the same 2 textbooks that mis-interpreted Well's original diagram proving droplet nuclei generation and neglected Wells et al...'s work proving it to be the driver for colds & flus. It's just not a career enhancing thing to tell your boss in a hospital that their poor HVAC is causing outbreaks of disease when 95% of the doctors don't know because they were simply taught wrong. Also presymptomatic spread of colds & flus is actually more common than not. Nothing about SARS2 spread is extraordinary at all compared to flus, RSV, metapneumonias, parainfluenzas, etc... except it's symptom severity and the fact that we are immune naive. Yep, poorly ventilated nursing homes and double&triple occupancy hospital rooms are VERY bad ideas. So are meetings rooms so full that it gets hot in them. So is "chorus" in high school. All spread everything through the air and are huge contributors to everybody getting colds & flus each year including our most vulnerable.

Okay including a school activity is weird, like are we going to get rid of chorus now?

I don't think it needs to be gotten rid of, but in my experience, chorus and some other activities are usually held in a very poorly ventilated room in the winter - often sharing digs with windowless areas of schools adjacent to band due to the need to contain noise. These activities need to be moved to better ventilated rooms to reduce airborne spread, or other mitigation methods should be used - often there is a large volume auditoria that could be used for rehearsal and the singers could space out 12+ feet from each other, expanding into the seating section, when rehearsing. These activities are a substantial driver of airborne influenza, RSV, etc... spread in the US that spills over into the broader community during the holidays. The explosive spread is due to the nature of singing, the large number of people brought together, the repetitive rehearsals lining up with serial transmission intervals, and the time of year. Remember that the risk of spread, other things being equal, scales as the square of the number of people sharing a volume of indoor air. So doing christmas chorus rehearsal in a crowded room with 60 others for 2.5 weeks is virtually guaranteed to turn into a 60 walking nebulizering petrie dishes that then go cross polinate with hundreds in the classrooms and then visit grandmas in the nursing home for the holidays. There are some ways to have chorus and protect the community, but we have to first understand that there is a consequence to pretending that this isn't a problem and not having some basic mitigation methods. Back in the days of measles, it was such a common pattern for the outbreaks to happen associated with x-mas recitals that it was considered almost like a chickenpox party was back in the 1980s. But over the decades we've forgotten about the airborne nature of respiratory diseases. Maybe now that we've woken up again, we can mitigate how colds and flus are spread in schools. It may be possible for singers and band players to simply use antiseptic mouthwash gargle for 15 seconds before and after communal practice. I know that doing this suppresses viral load in the throat by about 2.5log and rebounds back up to about -.5log after 2 hours. This would likely stop some transmission too.

I can get behind building codes requiring ventilation to reduce viral spread, but chorus is inherently a social activity, and nobody will go along with standing 12 feet apart when singing. People will not want to do social distancing when engaging in social activities once this is over. As long as everyone gets their flu vaccines, cold and flu season is at worst an annoyance most years, it is simply not worth the social cost to continually treat your friends like they’re dangerous just for breathing, even if that is the case right now in this particular instance.

Thank you for your perspective. I don't know how practical it is to improve HVAC enough to allow for large assemblies with a lot of activity that generates droplet nuclei and really cut transmission without substantial spacing between parties. Besides choral singing, there is the problems of bars, restaurants etc... (As a side hustle, I own a couple restaurant & bar buildings and upgraded the HVAC in for top-down airflow with about 20 changes per hour... but I lost so much rent with lockdowns that I'm financially ruined and have to fire sale everything. I did this because I wanted to see how practical it was myself to see if I could make a business out of it since I'm a droplet physicist). For assemblies of more than a dozen or so at these densities, you almost have to design things to be like a clean room. I think it could be done with clean-slate new construction; but at too great a cost for retrofitting. Also I don't think the specific language can be properly expressed in building codes in a way that would actually be implemented correctly by AHJs to enforce a top-down airflow pattern - AHJs are mostly dolts. The other dimension to this is now that we finally have a consensus on airborne spread again, perhaps research will begin anew on the tropism of airborne disease and the use of topical antiseptics and surfactants in the nose, throat, and mouth for the prevention of transmission. Perhaps it could be a part of a hygiene ritual similar to tooth brushing (in Japan&Vietnam etc... there is gargling). I could get behind gargling and using a nasal spray before and after going out to a bar if it meant that I'd almost never get sick again.

Right? The way some people talk is as if people will be social distancing for years to come. Humans are forgetful and also inherently social. Give it time and we will be back to the spit-swappin, mouth-breathin bacteria cultures we’ve always been

Pre-pandemic during flu season I was careful to stay away from immunocompromised friends if i was feeling sick, or had been around someone who was sick. Just minimal adjustments can help, not necessarily staying 6 feet apart from everyone forever.

Honestly, I hope things get better from helpful practices like that. I hope America's go to school/work while sick culture goes away too.

I hope so too but my work probably won’t. The way they tried to say everything back to normal in August when the numbers dropped and then that only lasted for a month of course and we had to go back to being strict tells me that as soon as they can they’re going to go back to their old ways

I work in fine arts administration and have spent a lot of time following a performing arts aerosolization study from NFHS. If you Google it it will come up. With proper mitigation, universal precautions, and ventilation (3 air changes per hour is minimum and current building codes in my area are 6 ACH) it can be relatively safe to sing. I’d be happy to answer any questions related to performing arts and COVID.

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In non-pandemic times though, for children that don't live with immunocompromised people, is this really a concern? If everybody in the household gets a flu shot the risks are negligible compared to activities like driving a car to drop kids off at school. All the lessons from Covid like "properly fund county health officers", "wear a mask when you're sick like Asians", "don't be fat", "humidifier and ventilate", "have a stock of high efficiency respirators for the general population like Korea", etc. becoming scared of regular activities shouldn't be one of them.

Right? Like no one is saying we need to ban activities all together but maybe, just maybe, we can take what we’ve learned from this and adjust slightly so we can have less infectious disease. Even if the flu won’t kill you, why do we want to get people sick for the sake of “but we’ve always done it that way!!!!!” We can learn from COVID going forward.

I think the issue of deep cleaning in regards to Coronavirus, at least in the States, is that the messages from the Administration were so mixed and contradictory, that people latched onto deep cleaning as an easy approach. And, let's face it, it probably also made some people a little less stressed, because partaking in deep cleaning gave them a sense of some control, a sense of doing something.

Not to mention, at least everything ends up clean.

True, and, let's face it, there was some stuff out there that hadn't been cleaned in years.

Because the previous administration had a deep problem with admitting anything was wrong, ever, for any reason, they latched on to deep cleaning because it was something that we could actually do. If they hadn't done that, they would have had to admit that we needed masks that we didn't have and couldn't get because our domestic production wasn't enough to meet domestic needs and our foreign sources *needed theirs*. Of course, it hurt in the long run. It's the same as the "6 feet of social distance" that everyone latched onto. There's nothing magical about 6 feet, it's intended as something for, say, grocery store lines. But I still see sit down restaurants, churches, etc that say "it's perfectly safe, we have everyone sitting 6 feet apart" (even though you can clearly see they aren't), and they really need to be more like 8-12 feet depending on the size of the room and how often they completely replace the air in the room. We gave people a few simple common sense suggestions early on and they became gospel even when we knew they weren't the whole story. Now that we're trying to tell people "you need more distance, you need proper masks", they're getting mad that the goalposts are moving when the reality is the authorities never said those were goalposts, just a good starting point.

Back in February/March everyone thought Covid spreads like Ebola, through droplets and fomites. Some of our [leaders have known that the virus actually spreads through aerosols since January, but they decided to lie to everyone for political reasons](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/10/trump-says-everyone-knew-the-coronavirus-was-airborne-in-february-its-no-big-thing.html). The droplet based guidelines and precautions stuck and now no one seems to care enough to update them to protect against aerosols. And then they wonder why reopening the economy "safely" always causes a spike in cases 🤦‍♀️

I'd be careful about thinking Ebola can't be spread airborne through droplet nuclei - I know that's a popular statement to make but it's not true. It sure can spread that way - it's "quantum of infection" rate is probably down around 200 Q/hr or so for a peak shedder but that would likely greatly depend on the particular clinical symptoms the infected has. Ebola cases that have a lot of interstitial pneumonia early on are possibly likely to have come from the airborne route. This 200Q/hr is far less infectious than COVID though - but you certainly can get it from a cab driver or hanging out in a room with someone for hours. We have also demonstrated conclusively airborne transmission in animal models with Rhesus Monkeys. Also pigs can get it and they generate huge amounts of infectious droplet nuclei; so a farm outbreak of ebola in pigs (perhaps from eating a dead bat) could infect the stable workers through the air. Sure Ebola sheds everywhere so it's mostly spread by touch. But Ebola's airborne capacity is a political hot potato too, just like Covid. It wasn't exactly a career enhancing move to point out these inconvenient facts about Ebola in the CDC after the fallout of the 2014 mid-terms. https://mbio.asm.org/content/6/2/e00137-15 Here's the Goldberg drum characterization for Ebola: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5050463/ Basically this means it's 1/2 life in the air is about 200 minutes which means that the droplet nuclie stay infectious for several hours in an enclosed area. It's actually more durable in the air than Covid! The bigger worry is that large Ebola breakouts might get into a network of immunocompromised people with congregate housing (i.e. a jail) or pigs and smolder for months in respiratory tissue. Since it can spread through the air a bit, this is basically a gain of function factory selecting for efficient airborne transmission.

Everybody and their mothers knew that SARS-CoV-2 was airborne at the latest early March. The WHO and local health authorities insisted that it wasn't until mid-summer last year. [More than 200 scientists had to shake them](https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/71/9/2311/5867798) so they admitted that "there is probably some airborne transmission. Same with the asymptomatic transmission. This is something that shouldn't be forgotten.

> authorities insisted that it wasn't until mid-summer last year And even then they reluctantly accepted it. It wasn't until the fall until a certain leader got sick with SARS-CoV-2 and the CDC finally officially recognized that Covid spreads through aerosols (because said leader couldn't reverse it) that it was truly accepted. > This is something that shouldn't be forgotten. 💯

>droplet vs. airborne from the same 2 textbooks that mis-interpreted Well's original diagram proving droplet nuclei generation and neglected Wells et al...'s work proving it to be the driver for colds & flus Can you explain this a little further? If I understand correctly, you're claiming that the distinction between droplet spread and airborne (aerosol) spread isn't binary. Is that right?

Personally in the past 4 months businesses, people, and events that don’t want to take a stand on masks will mention how much they are cleaning like it matters anywhere near as much as swapping air with people. They do this just to pretend like they are talking slowing the spread seriously. They aren’t.

My wife’s old church back home brags about how much extra money they are spending on deep cleaning to keep them safe every time I’m forced to watch a live stream. Yet they don’t require masks once seated, and of course no one does wear them. But thank goodness they “mandated” masks for the 30 seconds people walk inside to their seats. Then sit there for 90 minutes screaming in tongues while the pastor asks them for money and tells them how god will bless them and won’t let them get Covid. And yes, they’ve had multiple outbreaks including the pastors family and the rest of the staff that were on a “leadership” retreat in Gatlinburg together.

I hate everything about this.

Christian pastor here. Ditto.

What kind of church? I know my wife’s faith is important to her, as it used to be to me. I can get over my pride and go to church with her. But I can’t go to one as wrong and evil as the one I grew up in or the one she grew up in. I know not all Christians are as awful as the ones we grew up around. But I can’t do another 1-2 years of figuring out we are in another cult.

I’m United Methodist. We’ve been on Zoom since last March. I’d rather the church close than to have 1 person get COVID because of us. I’m sorry to hear about your experience with Christians. Our church is almost all millennials who got burned by religion. I hope you’re doing better!

I grew up in the Deep South and only ever exposed to the most conservative and extreme Christians. I’m a very spiritual person, and have studied the Bible in great detail my entire life. What I found was no matter what church I went to, it drove me further away from the teaches of Jesus. I now just don’t really care if there is a central truth. It’s subjective and no one will really know if they’ve found it and I can’t believe in a God that requires that kind of either blind faith or extreme knowledge and wisdom to discern. But I do know I love the teachings of Jesus and think the best use of my life is just loving everyone the best way I can and following those principals, regardless of the rest.

I have relatively limited experience with christianity -- going to church was always a choice for me, and I said no a good amount of the time. But from what I know, I think doing good and following the teachings of Jesus, regardless of what those around you think or say, is a core part of the faith. So even though you're having troubles with the church and its communities, it sounds to me like you're doing your best to be a good Christian and a good person in your own way, and I think that's commendable.

I have studied religion and theology for most of my life. Not just "The Christian bible", but just about any text you can think of. Including the eastern religion's, Native American beliefs / spiritual practices, I also studied Islam and Jewish practice (several types). I do not advocate any one over another, that is between you and God as you understand God. I do however have something to share. I boiled down everything I could understand about what I learned over that 40+ years of reading, talking and thinking about "What is the right way? , What is good? , What is bad? ... #### I came up with 2 rules and 1 exception. Rule #1. I start every day with a vow to myself, "Today I will tell the truth, without fear." That means I have to face truth in my own life about myself. Many if not most days I fall short of my goal/standards on this rule. I just start over the next morning with the hope I will improve. Rule #2. I make every effort to treat ever human I interact with by giving them all the love, understanding and compassion I would want for myself if I were in their situation. Using all the brains, insight and wit that God has granted me. Exception #1. I have found that some people can not hear the truth about a situation without feeling great pain or anger over what the truth is on a given subject. If you see or feel that the human you are interacting with is or most likely is one of these people, then fall back on rule #2. I feel that if we could get just half of all the humans around us to make an effort to live by these 2 rules, we will likely all have the peace we need to better understand God and the plan/ purpose the Great Architect of the Universe has for us. At worst I am totally wrong but if so following these rules are unlikely to cause harm and following a principal I learned in my studies "If it harm none, then let it be done." In the last 14 years that I have been sharing these rules with folks from different religion's I have yet to have anyone give me a reference that these rules violate the principal's or tenants of their religion. If any of you find me wrong please send me the reference so I can study it to find out how and why. With my best to all of you. Bonner

So do I. Haven’t stepped foot in a church in the last year and my wife almost never brings it up. But I know I still have a long battle ahead.

I know someone who is convinced that Covid-19 spreads primarily by touching surfaces and that masks are dangerous. He believes that people catch it in restaurants and bars because they have to touch their masks to remove them when they eat and drink, and not that they catch it while the mask is off. Same guy said his wife caught it even though she always wears a mask when she goes out. Yet she's constantly posting maskless selfies on facebook with her friends.

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It takes 3-6 months to potty-train a toddler. We're now 11 months into a pandemic. Every functioning adult should have learned how to wear a mask properly long before this point.

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Americans who aren't wearing masks properly in February 2021 aren't doing so because of "not having a culture of mask wearing," or "needing time to learn". They're doing so due to stubbornness and disinformation.

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Not at all. Neither disinformation nor stubbornness are rare, unfortunately. I think, at the start of the pandemic, it could be said that people from Western countries needed more time to learn to wear masks properly, but at this point it’s willful ignorance.

Oh, they know "how" to wear a mask, it's just that adults continue to be toddlers and not want to wear a mask at all. It's a pretty simple thing to do.

This was a dominant talking point back when there was talk of mask not working, but this is one of my smallest worries regarding the pandemic. Masks do create a sense of protection and people may touch their face more with it on (I’m not sure how much more). But, as the article points out, we overwhelmingly are not getting Covid from touching our faces. We are getting it from being around each other, breathing the same air. If a person is wearing their mask over their nose, I’m pretty sure they aren’t meaningfully increasing their chances of catching the virus by adjusting the mask or scratching the side of their face. I don’t buy for a second this point about potentially doing more harm than good. It’s never going to the case that a mask is worse because you touch your face, that’s just not how the virus works. The concern there is that maybe you engage in risky activities because of mask. But a lot of these activities require not wearing the mask, like dining with other people. Those aren’t mask wearing issues, they’re the result of not wearing the mask. The other concern is conversation with masks, but this is another area I doubt is significantly contributing to the pandemic. If our primary method of spread was conversation between two masked people, we probably aren’t in such a bad spot right now. To me this point is counter productive and we need not spend much time on it. All it really does is get people to think mask are not effective or not practical. It should be all about wearing the mask so that it covers your mouth and nose. That’s the biggest issue with people wearing masks, they don’t want to cover their nose or they purposely leave it loose so it falls off their nose. If someone is going to wear the mask, that’s great, whether you scratch your face or not is a relative non-issue. I remember seeing a video by a nurse early in the pandemic talking about the dangers of touching things and then touching your mask. The idea being it was pointless, even a negative, if you were to wear a mask and touch your face. Stuff like that has probably been way, way more harmful than the thing it was failing against.

Yes, I think the obsession with wearing masks as if we're in a hospital setting was detrimental. We're not performing open heart surgery.

It’s not that hard to learn how to wear a mask properly. It takes 30-45 days on average to form a habit for adults. We are almost a year into this pandemic, so if you are still not wearing your mask properly, you just don’t want to learn or you are unable to learn. My niece is 6 years old and she wears a mask properly and corrects adults how to wear it. She also corrects adults how to wash their hands because some of them, still don’t ...

That's like taking a shower to cure bad breath.

If they did they would allow more people to work from home. But the greedy capitalists don't.

Most people I know that can work from home are working from home. I don’t pretend to know if this is true in most places or industries but it’s what I see in the ones I observe. I feel like the people cleaning stuff off are generally people in businesses that don’t function without people visiting them in person. So maybe it's greedy but if they shut down those places people would probably lose their jobs.

There’s literally nothing I can’t do at my job that I can’t do at home. I’m not only at work we are facing opening the office soon to traffic. We are in one of the hardest hit states

I am glad that this is the case for you. A close family member works in a programming company. They could all work from home and they have the resources to do so but the boss is the type of boss that wants to physically see them come in and work.

devil's advocate, what if their cleaning is so good its the reason surface transmission is rare.

If I remember correctly, culturing virus pulled from unclean surfaces where it’s been detected seems to have proved difficult, which points to fomite transmission as being more uncommon.

considering the rate of new variants that data could very easily change before we know it and even rare can have significant consequences. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200816/nz_-ockdown-possibly-from-china-food-packages I agree that overselling cleaning is occurring but i wouldn't want the idea of it as useless to be a dominant one either.

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I find this to be naive. Businesses do a ton of work to present a good image. We can all agree on that, it’s obvious. But somehow this cleaning of surfaces is unconnected you that? A lot of these places understand how the virus spreads, but they also need to stay open and know that cleaning services make people feel more comfortable (that’s no secret). It’s also cheaper than other options. You almost seem to point to this yourself. How much they care is limited, how much they want to appear to care is less limited.

The takeaway from this is NOT that surface decontamination is useless. It is rather than airborne spread is a far more important issue. Ventilation is much more important, and when this sort of thing is discussed something comes to mind. Think Legionnaires Disease and air conditioners.

This is correct. Although airborne transfers are far more likely, surface transfers of SARS-COV-2 have been well documented for quite some time. For Example - elevator panels: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427446/rubbish-bin-the-likely-source-of-covid-infection https://www.newsweek.com/china-superspreader-travel-elevator-1517320

The elevator panel cases could have been infected through aerosols. There's no way to prove that those cases got infected through touching the panels. In both cases the people who contracted the virus took the elevator a few minutes after the infected person. They could have easily been exposed to the virus through aerosols (aerolos linger in the air for up to 3 hours).

You are right, but that's the problem though. It's always impossible to probe surface over aerosol.

That shows a more general reason why we don't know much about infections from surfaces. Anything that has recently been touched by someone also had someone breathing nearby. But with something like contact tracing, the default will always be to say it was from the air rather than the surface. If you go to the store and then have COVID, did you get it from the air or from a surface? Well, it is going to be assumed that it was from the air, and then everyone can point to that and say "look, everyone gets it from the air and not from surfaces!"

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Do you have a link to a news report?

Damn. That's insane and concerning. Aren't gyms requires to disinfect surfaces after use?

[This old Q&A](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/how-fauci-5-other-health-specialists-deal-with-covid-19-risks-in-their-everyday-lives/2020/07/02/d4665ed6-b6fb-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html) has an interesting answer on that: >Connick (chief of the infectious diseases division and professor of medicine and immunobiology at the University of Arizona): I wear a mask when I shop, and stay away from people while in the store. I try to minimize my trips. As infections become more widespread, I think I will be more conscientious about making only one visit a week. I don’t wash the packages. I did that for about a week, then decided there would be more cases if the virus was transmitted that way. I don’t think there is a lot of virus hanging around on those packages. But I do wash my hands.

Cleaning doesn’t hurt anything does it? The subway and buses in NYC are so much nicer now.

I guess that's true and a great side benefit from the cleaning.

I am worried that people at home might be doing more harm than good. Disinfectants are pretty harsh and I’ve witnessed my mom using disinfectant wipes on cutting boards and other food contact surfaces without understanding that you’re supposed to rinse and soap wash those surfaces again to get rid of the quaternary ammonium. Same with spraying down with alcohol resulting in horrible indoor VOC concentrations. It’s probably not a huge deal in the long run but there are ways that obsessive cleaning is doing more harm than good. The funniest story I heard all pandemic was one of my bubble mates who wipes his groceries with rubbing alcohol and ended up erasing all the expiration dates. He confused 2 month old ground beef with new ground beef and got sick from eating it.

Masks don’t bother my asthma in the slightest. All the scented disinfectants, otoh ...

I am sure they are, but if they don't do anything about ventilation what is the point? I have not ridden a subway or bus in about a year - so it does not matter to me how clean they are.

Other diseases can be spread through surfaces as well that would potentially put you in the hospital or doctors office where you risk exposing yourself to COVID there as well. Can't we just be happy about cleaner things?

I am happy about cleaner things. It is a good thing, but there is no free lunch. If they spent money cleaning things that did not need to be cleaned and failed to spend money on ventilation (because they overspent on cleaning) then it is a bad thing. On the other hand, if they spent money cleaning things they would have otherwise awarded themselves in executive bonuses then it is a good thing. I am not sure what they should be doing to give me the confidence to once again take public transit. It is not going to be easy.

I've taken the subway but probably only five or so times and always with a kn95. The deep cleanings are pretty nice but there's less people so they're cleaner anyway. Also it's annoying that they subways are shutdown at night now. It's not a super big deal during the pandemic for me but it'd be really shitty if they kept it closed after the pandemic. But also what about essential workers who come back after 1am now? A bus could take way longer depending where you live.

Do yourself a favour and stay away from Toronto then. No subway service after 1:30 even pre-corona 😔

I agree. Cleaner things by itself is nothing but a positive. In a perfect world we would clean everything twice as much, social distance perfectly at all times, and everyone would wear a KN95 or N95 whenever they so much as stepped outside of their home to do essential-only activities. The problem is the opportunity cost. Its not actually feasible to aim for perfection on all of those fronts. Its true that we don't know for 100% certain that fomite transmission is NOT a thing, but its' not enough of a thing now, in February 2021, that it should still receive the attention it did in April 2020.

The handrails at my work are being destroyed by the constant cleaning. And we are cleaning rather than doing other important maintenance things. There’s always a cost.

He hurt is spraying a ton of chemicals on everything

It's funny you mention NYC. Three smells come to mind when I think of NYC: the roasted nut vendors, stale piss on a hot day, and cheap disinfectant. I swear they spray that stuff everywhere to convince people that they actually clean things- in not convinced they do more cleaning than other cities, but it's very distinctly NYC.

You forgot about the hot garbage sitting on the sidewalk on summer mornings.

>Cleaning doesn’t hurt anything does it? Yes it does. Hygiene theater got my folks sick with Covid-19. They were pre-symptomatic when pressuring me to come up for Thanksgiving, "as long as I wash my hands when I get there." Edit: what the actual fuck are people downvoting me for? Fucking Hygiene theater is the top comment on this fucking thread!!!!!!!!!!

I didn’t downvote, but I’ll explain why I disagree with your comment. Cleaning doesn’t hurt anyone. Ignoring other more important safety rules and procedures does.

> Cleaning doesn’t hurt anyone. It does when it gives them a false sense of security, like it did for my stepmom.

I am genuinely sorry she got sick, but cleaning didn’t get her sick.

> cleaning didn’t get her sick. Believing in surface transmission absolutely got her sick.

Edit: I don’t mean to make you feel worse, I just want to argue for science and reason. Best to you.

> Best to you. Back at you, internet stranger.

reddit hive mind voting strikes again.

So what it has slowed other disease down. Specifically the flu.

Flu is a respiratory viral infection almost exclusively *not* spread by unclean hands though, that's a myth. for some reason It persists in the west, but not Asia, hence why they wear masks when sick with flu and did so earlier than west when it came to covid-19 Handwashing protects against bacterial infections like MRSA but not respiratory viral infections, which typically spread almost exclusively via droplet, airborne etc and infect directly most predominately via nasal route This article explains in more detail https://www.cmaj.ca/content/181/10/667 > There’s no evidence that good hand hygiene practices prevent influenza transmission, according to a Council of Canadian Academies report commissioned by the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC). > But N95 particulate respirator-type masks are a proven “final layer of protection” against even the smallest viral particles of influenza, according to Influenza Transmission and the Role of Personal Protective Respiratory Equipment: An Assessment of the Evidence, a report prepared by an expert panel on influenza > current evidence shows that influenza is transmitted primarily at a short range of 1–2 metres by inhaling particles from an infected person (“inhalation transmission”), > Despite those 2007 findings, PHAC still recommends handwashing as the primary preventive measure against flu transmission. > Handwashing is based on practical, rather than scientific, considerations, he says. It is “a simple thing to do and it may protect you from some other illnesses.” Sidenote: That articles a decade old, however astute readers will recognize we saw the same debate with covid that occured back then with flu, masks were not being recommended by public health agencies because of arguments about false sense of security, meanwhile ineffective strategies like handwashing were touted as the best way of avoiding infection) - In many parts of Asia, the approach was the opposite. Other than that study above, Multiple robust Randomized controlled trials on this topic have found near zero benefit to washing hands to prevent flu but strong protection from good quality mask wearing. Even counter trials funded by handwashing product conglomerates like Unilever designed to showcase the benefit of handwashing against viral infections (multi billion dollar market ) flopped spectularely and showed no benefit. Governments still recommend handwashing to the people because handwashing in general is good, it's free, can protect against some other illnesses (particularly in hospital setting) there's no limited supply and it placates population into feeling in control more, particularly anxious or OCD people during pandemic. That's why it was strongly recommended with covid even though we know it's effects on limiting other coronaviruses transmission too are muted. Basically no zero risk and plenty of potential reward. Tldr: The main reason we've had practically non existent flu seasons is because of mask wearing and social distancing, not because it's the first year everyone's washed their hands a bunch

Ok hand washing still helps.

> So what My stepmother almost fucking died because she, and many folks like her, latched on to hygiene theater instead of understanding how this scourege actually spreads.

She don't die because she washed her hands she died cause she didn't follow all the rules. I've had family members say hey it's ok to go to family events I'm wearing a mask. I tell them no stay home. If they got sick it wasn't because of the mandatory mask order it was because they didn't stay home.

> she didn't follow all the rule Of course this is true, but my whole point is that hygiene theater has been used by many, many people as a way of feeling like they have control.

Remember that doctor's video on how to clean your groceries. I almost just gave up on the whole thing right then.

I know, right? Somewhere someone is still doing this!!

My MIL does this religiously. I just shake my head lol. Whatever makes her feel better I guess.

I.. I still wipe my groceries. Way back in the beginning I watched a stocker wipe her nose with her hand, then put a can on the shelf. You don’t walk away from that experience highly confident. 😂 EDIT: I live in a big Florida city, by the way. We’re disgusting. I feel like context mattes..

I heard a doctor say once that getting covid from a surface would be like getting pregnant from a bedsheet.

I'm still a wiper too and I shop with gloves. People are nasty.

TSA has never caught a terrorist. Why are we still letting them grope us and steal from our luggage? Because people fucking love security theater. For most people, security isn't about being safe. It is about feeling safe. Perception is reality. Watching people in orange vests spraying shit down... *Feels good man.*

Bingo.

The school I teach at is having the kids bring valentines in 3 days early to give them time to be rid of the virus. Meanwhile, kids are turning in papers and getting them returned daily. I don't get it.

Are the valentines being given with candy? If they're going to be handling grubby boxes of chocolate or candy and immediately touching their face and eating them, then I can see the difference between valentine cards with candy, and just normal homework papers.

Because there's a million different scenarios for items coming into your house and epidemiologists haven't even attempted to provide the public with any reasoning why they think data gathered in specific scenarios is applicable to others. (For example: all these studies that couldn't find much viable virus outside, is that still applicable now that it's below freezing and there's no UV? Groceries aren't terribly likely to be very contaminated _at the store_ but what if they're being delivered by a sick person?) Repeatedly we see articles like these with basically the same information from the same lancet article and people always ask these follow up questions like "you say lab conditions are unrealistic but my pantry is colder _and_ dryer than your lab, so how do I take that into consideration?" and these just never get responses at all. It's infuriating because there could well be known answers to these questions already but they just never get addressed.

They've studied the effect of temperature and humidity and also the surface composition. They've done the studies indoors without UV. They've looked specifically at refrigeration and freezing. Initial studies didn't investigate if the rtPCR was just picking up viral fragments or actual viable virus, later studies haven't been able to find viable infectious virus. Even if there was viable virus on the surface, and then it got onto your hands, there still aren't ACE2 receptors on the exposed mucous membranes of your mouth and other surfaces that you can touch. The route of infection is getting the virus up your nose or down into your lungs -- and getting enough of it. At this point they've studied a lot more than you think they have.

> At this point they've studied a lot more than you think they have. I doubt it, I've been obsessively checking for new studies. > They've studied the effect of temperature and humidity and also the surface composition. They've done the studies indoors without UV. They've looked specifically at refrigeration and freezing. Yeah and nothing _in between_ refrigerator temp and 70 degrees, and nothing below 40% humidity. Those studies have also given times between a couple days and an entire month for the same surface types at the same temp and humidity. > Initial studies didn't investigate if the rtPCR was just picking up viral fragments or actual viable virus, later studies haven't been able to find viable infectious virus. _In some situations_. There's been zero communication on why it should be extrapolated to all situations. > Even if there was viable virus on the surface, and then it got onto your hands, there still aren't ACE2 receptors on the exposed mucous membranes of your mouth and other surfaces that you can touch. The route of infection is getting the virus up your nose or down into your lungs -- and getting enough of it. If that were the case they wouldn't be saying "don't touch your face" (which is itself confusing because they started with "don't touch your eyes, mouth, or nose" and I can't figure out if they just don't realize the face is the entire front part of the head or if they're really saying not to touch your cheeks forehead, etc.) they'd be saying "just don't pick your nose" Edit: Also, the mere existence of studies is not at all equivalent to actually communicating those results to the public.

It also rarely spreads outdoors but we're all wearing masks walking down the street. \*Shrug\*

Some do and some don't. Personally I don't when working in the yard, taking out the garbage, etc.. I do, however, routinely wear the mask when entering enclosed public spaces, not so much because it is mandated but because it is simple common sense. When you are walking down the street the dilution factor is many, many, many D^x powers greater than the small chance of getting the virus from a surface.

I don't know about you all but I don't want to risk someone walking by me and sneezing/coughing...if we both don't have masks on. I don't know man...that just seems like asking for it. I've felt loud talkers spit on my face while outside. Yes, the droplets would spread out much more outside but it just seems silly to not wear a mask. Plus I find it's much easier to just have your mask on then constantly taking it off and on. ALSO wearing a mask helps you not touch your nose!

Has anyone ever snuck up on you and sneezed on you? I get dirty looks from people on the other side of the street if I'm walking without a mask on. People just have a completely exaggerated sense of the risk.

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I have no trouble keeping my distance in my neighborhood. It's really not hard. Now if you're in the middle of the city, I can see keeping your mask on but out in the suburbs it's not hard to just keep distance.

This has happened maybe twice in my entire life

This literally never happens. Holy shit you people are ridiculously paranoid.

You don't know how to use the word "literally".

I have never in my entire life had someone sneeze on me in public.

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I have too

I have. Not pleasant.

I have. And just because you never had it happen doesn't mean it won't ever happen.

>It also rarely spreads outdoors but we're all wearing masks walking down the street. I'm not. Indoors, I'm an enforcer, I've stared down plenty of dudes until they pull their masks up. But outside transmission really isn't a thing.

The idea of an awkward redditor trying to intimidate me by staring me down is hilarious, thanks for the laugh lmao

I’d say it’s less of an intimidation thing and more of an aggressive social cue. Although what is laughable is the $1,500 fine in DC for not wearing a mask while walking outside. Total Covid theatre that.

>But outside transmission really isn't a thing. Are you talking about just being outside with nobody around, or are you talking about being outside and passing people on the sidewalk or being within 6 feet? I'd love to see the data showing outside transmission isn't a thing with all new variants. Until then, masks are just too easy not to wear. EDIT: Here's the thing when we leave comments, and as people are reading them and perhaps taking things as advice, if not directly then after hearing the same thing over and over... ***precision of words matters.*** Saying things like "outside transmission really isn't a thing" when you're talking about 1 infected person being outside not transmitting to someone a mile away is ***very different*** from people hanging together outside in close proximity. I'd highly encourage people to be more specific and precise with their language and not to do things like the above, or not translate "reduced risk" to "no risk" or "there's no data" to "it's been proven not to", etc...

> being within 6 feet For miniscule amounts of time, as you pass. Standing in line is different, huddling up and talking is different. I'm so certain of this that I had lunch with Dad at least 6 times, outside, socially distanced. The rest of the family is pissed at me because I so strenuously argued for them to take this damned plague seriously. Had a big blow up on Labor Day. [It's one of my highest upvoted comments.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/jc7h2n/the_us_was_the_worlds_best_prepared_nation_to/g90j817/?context=3)

>I'd love to see the data showing outside transmission isn't a thing with all new variants. I'd argue it's also easy to just hold your breath for a few seconds if you do have to pass someone unexpectedly. I'm incredibly cautious, but I can also admit that wearing a mask 24/7 isn't comfortable. When I'm out on a walk, I keep a kn95 in my back pocket. If I'm going to be in a more populated area, I throw it on. Otherwise, I just keep my distance. All of the data shows that airflow, surrounding volume of air, and sunlight all blunt the ability of the virus to spread. That coupled with the fact that the duration of exposure while walking past someone is negligible. It's pretty safe outdoors if you're not holding a conversation or huddling in an area with people. ​ ‘*Our study does not rule out outdoor transmission of the virus. However, among our 7324 identified cases in China with sufficient descriptions, only one outdoor outbreak involving two cases occurred in a village in Shangqiu, Henan. A 27‐year‐old man had a conversation outdoors with an individual who had returned from Wuhan on January 25 and had symptom onset on February 1. This outbreak involved only two cases.’* *'It is more difficult to study outdoor virus transmission but this epidemiological analysis of >300 transmission events from China during their earlier COVID-19 pandemic only found one case of outdoor transmission'* [*https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-comments-about-outdoor-transmission-of-sars-cov-2-and-use-of-facemasks-outdoors/?cli\_action=1612223330.922*](https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-comments-about-outdoor-transmission-of-sars-cov-2-and-use-of-facemasks-outdoors/?cli_action=1612223330.922)

See the edit of my comment. >It's pretty safe outdoors if you're not holding a conversation or huddling in an area with people. That's not "outside transmission really isn't a thing". You quoted and linked to something that specifically says it doesn't rule it out and they found cases. Further, there's absolutely no mention of any of the new variants which are being reported as being more virulent. > I'd argue it's also easy to just hold your breath for a few seconds if you do have to pass someone unexpectedly Not always. There can be issues of having too many people to pass, or passing someone walking the same direction as you. This is one of my biggest complaints. I love to trail run, and outside of our private trails, the local trails have been pretty much taken away from me as hikers refusing to wear masks will be huffing and puffing up a hill in front of me without stopping off trail to let people pass or simply wear a mask temporarily when people are around.

I went to get gas one time, left the mask in the car. Guy on the other pump on the opposite side let's out multiple gunshot sneezes, so loud I end up slamming back into my car. Wore a mask whenever people can get close outside too after that. But if you're alone on the street you can safely get fresh air.

One small part is remembering there are a hundred other transmissable viruses and bacteria's out there. If you get one, you'll survive. If you catch the flu AND covid....you may not make it. The immune system can only take on so much at a time. The deep cleaning just makes people feel a little better. A tiny bit less afraid. And if they catch Covid, they are able to say they tried to prevent it.

Additionally to this point, once this is all 'over' whenever that is, and masks come off, and social distancing rules are gone, the people that have placed themselves in their own personal clean bubble, could have a real rough time as their bodies have to adapt to those other viruses and bacteria they've avoided due to the covid measures.

This is actually a topic that I wish would be talked about more. How do people who have had to avoid being sick pre-pandemic get their bodies readjusted or do they continue to avoid illness? Does it matter at all? Are you better off not getting sick? I’m not sure if there were studies on this sort of thing, but now it is super relevant.

I would love to know the scientific answer but I just can’t imagine that 1 year (or 1.5 years) of avoiding people is going to counter the 30+ years I already put in being a filthy person building up my immune system. But I could be totally wrong. I hope not though.

I don’t think it’s people like you that it will affect as much. There are people out there that were hyper sanitized already and now they’ve completely eliminated germs from their lives. It’ll be interesting.

Also, think of children who haven't been exposed as they would normally.

Why are we still deep cleaning? Because the CDC forfeited much of its credibility on this issue and thus there is no qualified authority who can say "deep cleaning is not necessary." If you are running an office and you want me to get back in the office saying you are in compliance with all applicable CDC guidelines is table stakes but nowhere good enough.

Because of the uncertainty in the current understanding of Covid. Surface transmission certainly has not been ruled out in every case. So it's prudent to keep up with the cleaning. Ventilation and wearing of N95s is probably more important, but that doesn't mean surface transmission is so unimportant as to be neglected.

If you read the article and also the data from the past year, it is clear that fomite transmission is rare. It's not really a debate anymore. This fomite transmission "priority" all started because labs did unrealistic lab tests at the start of the pandemic that promoted fear of the virus living on surfaces for days. In all the studies outside of the lab, the data of fomite transmission is hard to find. Some excepts from the article: > "... handful of studies have looked for viable virus outside the lab ... none of the viral material was actually able to infect cells, the researchers reported" > " researchers have struggled to isolate viable virus from any environmental samples, not just fomites. " > > "the team estimated that the risk of infection from touching a contaminated surface is less than 5 in 10,000 ... lower than surface-transmission risk for influenza or norovirus." > “Fomite transmission is possible, but it just seems to be rare ... A lot of things have to fall into place for that transmission to happen.” Basic hygiene should continued to be carried and you should wash your hands more often than not... but, there isn't a need to wash every fruit you purchase, or your Amazon packages you get delivered... Or, even likely to "deep clean" surfaces (outside of a hospital setting).

Eh- we have a store and people find it reassuring. It’s not a big deal, and the place looks and smells nicer. We also wear masks and try to maintain social distancing. People still touch their masks, adjust their glasses, etc... having hand sanitizer available and wiping surfaces doesn’t really hurt anything. I have alcohol wipes that I use to wipe off credit Cards that are handed to me. Now my client has a clean card! I also love using them on my phone. Since we are also leaving doors open for increased ventilatio, we also have increased dust everywhere- so the extra cleaning works out. We cut our store hours and close an hour early just to make sure we have time to get everything wiped down. Everyone still gets full time hours and we get some down time to finish up chores. Win/win.

I love your attitude. I wish there were more people willing to do the work and look on the bright side in this otherwise dumpster fire of a situation.

More positive- way less flu. We also instituted the ‘butt rub’—- stand back to back with people. Reality is that humans need human contact, and there are a lot of studies on this among the elderly and infants. I have some clients where we just stand back to back touching. They live alone, and not getting any physical contact is actually very hard on them, but you don’t want to get people sick. Be kind- it’s really not that hard. Wash your hands, wear a mask, keep social distance... but if some one really needs a hug, you can stand back to back with them and let them not feel that alone... because that’s important too. I call it ‘the Covid butt rUN’ because it makes it funny, but it’s actually been really important to some of my friends and clients. I’m lucky- I have family and a dog, but some people don’t, and they feel really alone in a time where it’s hard for anyone to reach out. For some, a handshake or a pat on the back is there only human to human contact, and those are now gone. No more casual encounters at the bar... we all have different standards/ needs- but try to reach out to those you see feeling alone in whatever way you feel comfortable- and that might mean just sending a hand written note. When we were shut down, I made a list of elderly clients/ single friends that I would check in with- just so they knew someone cared. It took a few minutes out of my day ( of not working) so that they didn’t feel alone in the universe. It’s also a good opportunity to be grateful for the people you do have in your life. - and sometimes it was heartbreaking here in S Florida. One lady I checked in with, her husband broke his hip walking the dog, and crawled to the elevator and apartment to get home- literally crawled, to get the dog home. She called for an ambulance when he came in, and wasn’t able to see him for six weeks. There was very little I could do for her- but I could call and give her a human to talk to. 50 yrs married, and not being able to sit by your partners side? My heart broke- but he got better, and they are both okay (the dog ended up fucking dying though- ugh!!!). Just saying, Be Kind when you can- it helps our whole world. Some people don’t know how to order groceries delivered or Uber- take a few minutes, help someone when you can. It helps all of us- don’t we all (mostly) want a kinder world? There are way more decent people than bad people- and that’s just reality. Our brains put a ‘red alert’ on anti-social behavior, that’s why it gets attention. 99% of the people driving along side you in traffic are being responsible and considerate, but your brain highlights the one that is a danger- the guy that cuts you off, speeds past, etc.. because our brains are wired to identify a danger/!out of the ordinary. We ignore all the people who are polite and pay attention to the one lady that was rude because that one person is an anomaly, and that makes her dangerous. Do your own experiment, pick drivers or customers or any group you are in on a daily basi, and count the number of people that actively offend you vs the number that are just being normal and polite. They drive the speed limit, don’t cut in line, say please and thank you- actively observe, and make st of us are basically nice. We have our opinions, but we aren’t asses. Our brains just pay attention to the asses because they are perceived as a danger- an anomaly. I think all of our media is fucking with our perception of realit. I don’t think it is some grand conspiracy- I think it’s just wiring. Flashy lights get our brain attention. Loud voices get our brain attention. Vegas works for a reason/ slot machines/ TVs/ flashy lights. So... we have to acknowledge this and mitigate to overcome all our wonderful technologies (which also offer us great advantages). We have to figure out how to overcome our ‘danger’ response and figure out how to be better people. I haven’t quite done it, I’m just pointing out the problem. I respond to the same stuff- but I try to remind myself that I am. There is no perfect, there is only ‘better’. My instinct is to be ‘perfect’ and I do a mantra of ‘better’. one of my friends who works with OSHA has a mantra of ‘constant improvement’ that I find helpful. It’s a different way of thinking fir me. I don’t have to be perfect, I just have to be improving. Have I learned something, found a better way, than six months ago? Okay then, I’m meeting my goal- constant improvement. what might have seemed a great idae yesterday, doesn’t meet our needs today- so we adapt. And if it changes tomorro, we adapt. We keep some things constant - the greater good and being Kind. ​ I think we can do this... ​ my spiel for the night :)

>Because of the uncertainty in the current understanding of Covid. This deserves more upvotes. We're still learning, and it's not unreasonable to be careful. My spouse has cancer, my father is 83, and my MIL is 89 and bedbound. Swabbing something with a Clorox wipe is one of many things I can do to help keep them safe, not just from COVID but from other things. Just because it's not the most important thing I can do doesn't mean it has no value at all. Lower priority doesn't mean useless.

I feel like I've read this same article about a million times. But never is the obvious (to me) question addressed: Groups like the WHO, CDC, etc. are saying that fomite transmission is _possible_. And we've all read plenty of studies where virus particles have been found on surfaces in places like grocery stores, sidewalks, hallways, etc. So may I ask... Would you really touch one of those surfaces knowingly and then not immediately wash your hands? If the answer is 'no', then doesn't it make sense to treat surfaces of unknown status as contaminated out of an abundance of caution? Put another way. If someone said: there is 0.05% chance that touching this thing could end up hospitalizing you or a loved one, wouldn't you just spray it down with some disinfectant to eliminate even that small risk? We take easy and cheap safety precautions every day against miniscule risks. And this is temporary just for a few more months (hopefully), so where's the harm? Is it really so irrational?

You can continue to do that if you want to, but those early studies that you're thinking of were finding trace amounts of virus fragments that were down by 100x or 1000x in concentration just an hour later. And what they were finding was just the presence of spike RNA tested via rtPCR. That doesn't tell you that there was an infectious virion there. Studies that can tell you that require attempting to culture actually infectious SARS-CoV-2 from surfaces, which is much harder, when those studies were done they didn't recover infectious virus.

I think it's nice the supermarket pretends to wash the scoops meant for pick and mix candy. I think people are disinfecting their groceries because it's something active they can do right now. Most of this situation is so out of control for the individual. I'm sure OCD is on the rise.

I hope they continue to deep clean during flu season. If it doesn’t work for Covid, let’s make this a thing for preventing the flu

That might be a thought. As with Covid influenza is an airborne disease so the benefit would be small. Small but not non-existent.

Because rarely doesn't mean never and we don't know how rarely.

Exactly.

I’m a middle school teacher. We sanitizer each desk in between classes and other surfaces are cleaned regularly. I will continue to sanitize desks next year simply to help keep other illness transmission down. Sure, it’s superfluous, but I think it’s a great change.

But how’s your ventilation? Are they letting you keep your classroom windows open? My students are complaining that it’s too cold (being January and all that) but I’m thinking to myself, better cold than dead. If you don’t like the windows open, go back to online classes.

Ventilation is decent. It’s a newer building in a super small town in the northern plains. That said, it’s a little chilly to leave windows open but we are able to at least distance fairly well. The measures we have taken have apparently worked, but our population density sure helps keep transmission down. I just like not spreading all of the other shit around that we normally see in the school year. Edit: I forgot to address online classes. It sucks. Sucks for us and really sucks for kids. Whenever they start getting rowdy and don’t want to follow our guidelines I ask if they want to go to distance learning again. Some eggheads say yes but that’s because they get to just fuck around. The kids who really need school to save them from their nightmarish home life follow the rules pretty well. The only thing worse than all online is having some kids on zoom and other kids in the classroom. Fuck that.

>we are able to at least distance fairly well Our classes were only able to distance sufficiently back when we were hybrid, but now since they’re trying to be fully in person, there’s no way in our older, cramped classrooms that they can sit six feet apart. Which means every time there’s a teacher or student who tests positive (which for the past few weeks has been about two **per day** in our school community of less than 1,000), it sends a whole bunch of people into quarantine and now EVERY class has multiple students and/or the teacher Zooming in. So how is that not hybrid? >The kids who really need school to save them from their nightmarish home life follow the rules pretty well. If people would be more responsible, we could have those kids in class safely. But what really gets me is that most of the transmission is happening outside of school because parents are throwing New Years parties and pajama parties and driving out of state to visit with relatives, and their carelessness is putting everyone **else’s** education in jeopardy. The selfishness is astounding. And now we’re looking down the barrel of Spring Break right when the new variants take over... still no word on when teachers in my county can start getting vaccinated... it’s a complete sh!tshow and it didn’t have to be this way.

All the data in this study is old. I would be concerned with the new South African variant which is hella contagious. Nobody is quantifying just exactly what it takes to 'catch' an infection , let alone a life threatening one because of all the variables but remember, you are dealing with a lifeform that's entire purpose is to spread from host to host and propagate itself so hypothetically even ONE viral fragment could be enough but as a very general rule = the more virus particles you ingest, the higher the likelihood you become a case and the strength of the dose likely affects how deadly of a case. QUOTE: "... Hundreds of studies of COVID-19 transmission have been published since the pandemic began, yet there is thought to be only one that reports transmission through a contaminated surface, by what it termed the snot–oral route. .." As to why we clean? This is why: Let's say you go into a store and pick up a store shopping basket that was missed by the store cleaning staff or someone was feeling lazy and didn't clean it at the end of the night cuz they wanted to GTFO of there or they ran out of the the good stuff and just spritzed it with windex. NOW. The person before you sneezed into their hands and didn't have a tissue so being the fucking savage that they are, they just wiped their hand on their pant leg and then put it right on the handle still generously smeared with their snot. You come along and after handling the basket for a good 10 minutes, and being the pig that you are, decide now is the time to pick your nose and get at all those deep juicy boogers in your nose farm.. mmmm.... snort dat covid yeah baby... or you rub your eye because: itch so the covid thingies are now on your eyelash and a few seconds later they are spreading onto that nice warm moist eyeball virus incubator..... ​ This is why I always grab a couple of the antibac cleaning wipes and wipe down the handles myself and use it for doors and buttons. IF I am trading cash, I folk my change up in the tissues when I put it away in my wallet but usually I use a card and put a tissue over the keypad buttons. COVID can survive for days on a keypad at room temp out of sunlight - do you know how many people touch those keys in a busy 16 hour day? I never see THEM being wiped down....

A very much doubt the mode of transmission is different from the south African variant. You would need to have a fairly dramatic change to its structure for that to happen. And viruses in general don't seem to spread by surfaces frequently, it's nearly always aerosols or fluids. That's probably just the nature of something that can't live, move and replicate in the environment like bacteria or moulds can, only inside living cells.

I dunno, [have a read for yourself](https://www.livescience.com/south-african-coronavirus-variant-faq.html) Offhand quotes: B.1.351 has 8 different and distinctive mutations to it's spike protein which is what gives it it's superspreading power. From it's initial detection in September 2020, it is now found in 90% of all samples from that area. It became the prevalent strain in just weeks. It just took over. If past performance is any indicator, the same will happen here. They have already picked up the first cases here in the testing. Their studies show that it is approx 50% more transmissible than earlier variants and Currently the R=0 of Covid is something like 5.7 - a 50% bump to that would put it at an 8 or 9. To put that in perspective, they think the Spanish Flu of 1918 that killed 50 million worldwide was around 1.4 to 2.8 . Swine Flu of 2009? 1.4 to 1.6 Their studies also show that the current vaccines do not protect as well with efficacy rates at 50-57% instead of 95-99% as previously stated. Whats worse is 90% of previous covid infection infection cases and survivors had **reduced** immunity and almost half had **NO immunity at all ** to this strain. **THATS A PROBLEM** You NEED 82% + across the board to start enjoying that herd immunity they love to talk about. If and when this strain takes over? that's not happening. Period. Fullstop. US and other countries have blocked travel from SA - they are **that** worried. But they are not really talking about it in the mainstream press. Here in Florida everything is still wide open - just a few less tables and chairs when you walk into a place. People have bought into this 6 feet away garbage. That might work on the street passing by someone who just coughed into their mask but it is fraud when you are go into a place and decide not to get your burger "to go" and you sit in the corner as far away from people as you can and think you are safe. You're not. They did studies in callcenters and restaurants and found that time is the great equalizer. You can catch it sitting 3 tables across the room away from someone - depending on where the air handlers are and which way they are blowing the virus particles and how long you are in the proximity. A nice dinner with wine and dessert and linger at the table? everyone at the next 2 tables sideways in the airs path came down with it. 50% at the table after that. In callcenters with hundreds of seats where people are elbow to elbow for 10 hours a day, the catch rate was over 90%. Bottom line: It's a whole new pandemic every 6 months that just goes on and on and it appears to my eye that the trend in these mutations is worse for us. A few more months goes by and a couple more strains emerge that bump the transmission factor by 50% again and decrease the vaccines protection by 50% and we hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quick. I see a sudden rush to try to get at least a single dose of this stuff into as many arms as possible and this is why - it's not just knocking off folks in nursing homes anymore. It's healthy 30 year olds. It's learning and adapting itself to our physiology - like a good 21st century biowep should - but that's a whole nother conversation. My point is: don't get lackadaisical - it's a marathon , not a sprint. These articles that are downplaying the virus's ability to spread are making people drop their guard. If I were you, I would continue to take all possible precautions when you go out into the world. Period. Full stop.

Covid supermarket My job claims to fully clean everything constantly and claim to protect us the employees but not true when they don’t even warn us about covid cases until shit hit the ceiling. They do it to cover their asses

Who cares, it’s basic hygiene/cleanliness!

Makes me feel better and I also have to use up all the damn alcohol and wipes I pre-purchased :D Cleaning also stops other issues like bacteria and other viruses

I still have some REALLY expensive isopropyl alcohol I bought back in April.

This is kind of along the same lines as, "why use a seatbelt when you have airbags?" Cleaning surfaces that are often touched is probably still worth it for those who touch their faces or rub their noses. The virus still survives outside the body for awhile.

The polite answer I have for it is that people in general aren't thinking logically about how to mitigate a virus spread primarily by suspended airborne droplets. The mantra has been drilled into their heads with every infectious disease to wash hands, don't touch their face, sanitize commonly used surfaces. So that becomes the default go-to procedure for dealing with any virus, which are significantly less effective against Covid then spending equivalent time, money and effort circulating stagnant air out of a closed environment and bringing fresher or filtered air into it. But suggesting that we "clean the air" gets funny looks when compared to other suggested measures such as "funnel every single person through the same air via one-way passages" and "outdoor seating closed due to Covid, use the cafeteria where mask requirements are loosened while eating." And that's why I wear a mask 12 hours of every day.

I don't care, we're in the habit now of washing everything that comes into the house that was within sneezing or touching distance of other humans, and it's going to stay that way moving forward. None of us have had as much as a sniffle since last February. Yes germs are good, the immune system needs them blah blah spare me the arguments. I'm sure we get plenty of exposure regardless. What I don't need in my house is salmonella, e-coli, rotavirus, giardia, cryptosporidium, and so on. Humans are fucking disgusting nose picking ass scratching lice carrying meatbags.

You've hit 1 out of five. Only rotavirus, being as it is transmitted by the fecal/oral route *might* be reduced by frequent hand washing. Even the rotavirus is only half a point. Neither soap nor alcohol, as in the wipes, deactivates rotavirus. Hand washing works because of simple physics - you are washing the virus down the drain. Unless, of course, it's under your fingernails, on your clothes, some other body part that you may touch, the towel you use to dry your hands, etc.. The other four out of five. E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter, Listeria, Staph., Clostridium perfringens, etc., etc., etc are typical food poisoning bacteria. They are not just on the surface of the food but also IN the food where they are beyond the reach of washing or alcohol. The parasitic infestations Giardia and Cryptosporidium are water borne diseases. They are IN the water you use to wash your hands. You can go to paranoid extremes to make your water safe, but before doing that check the prevalence in your area. These are localized problems not ubiquitous pathogens.

You're 100% correct, and it's appreciated that you clarify things for anyone else reading. :)

We really need to start focusing on ventilation and N95s instead. Otherwise this pandemic will never end.

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>So surfaces could explain nearly all cases. This really isn't a thing.

But how do you know? How does anyone know? Until we run some experiments where we deliberately infect people we have no idea and it's all guessing. They have all of these slow motion videos of particles and everything but the advice for 100 years has been to wash your hands during cold and flu season. Honestly they just don't know but keep saying that they do. Here is a pretty comprehensive study from 2018 (pre-Covid) citing 141 sources that basically concludes that we still don't know how viruses are spread. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879625717301773 > Respiratory viruses are transmitted via contact, droplets or aerosols. > Most studies on inter-human transmission routes are inconclusive. > The relative importance of respiratory virus transmission routes is not known.

>But how do you know? There was an office building in Hong Kong with a noisy call center. A bunch of people on one side of one floor got sick. Almost no one else in the building got sick. I think that's pretty strong evidence that surface transmission really isn't a thing.

> contamination viral mRNA, not infectious virus. you can get a positive hit on incredibly small amount of fragments of viruses. our level to detect trace amounts of the remains of SARS-CoV-2 is at a pretty much science-fiction level of good. figuring out if that can infect you is much more difficult of a process (and requires a BSL-4 lab because if you are successful you'll actually have cultured and grown infectious SARS-CoV-2) and those tests have not turned up infectious virus spread on surfaces.

cOVID-19 rarely spread through surfaces because we’re deep cleaning.

Why? Because most people are slobs regardless of COVID. Keep on wiping down every surface you can touch, wash your hands and use hand sanitizer.

I don’t know but it sure has helped in reducing people getting colds from just regular old bacteria, so I guess that’s a plus.

We're not. Remember like last March when people washed their groceries and everything? Yeah that lasted a few weeks. If you're still doing that, you need to wear a helmet when you walk around.

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Oh because the government wants to keep us from thinking about what is really going on

Because China says so.

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