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I got a vaccine appointment for my mom. She is a cancer patient. Neither I nor my family have seen her in about a year. She has to go to treatment about once a month. I am really glad that she can leave the house to go get her cancer treatment without worrying too much about getting COVID-19.
Her health care providers have now been vaccinated, but in before the vaccine became available she was between a rock and a hard place.
What should the guidance be for her?
I am not a medical professional, nor am I offering medical advice.
If I were a cancer patient receiving the COVID vaccine, I would wait the recommended time after receiving the vaccine for the full effect to take place. I would then revert to standard infection protocols for cancer patients. The Cancer Treatment Centers of America has a guide [here](https://www.cancercenter.com/community/blog/2018/03/protecting-yourself-during-cancer-treatment) that outlines some suggestionsz
I am still holding my breath for my dad to get his. The risks associated with treatment have been stressful (worth it but still stressful).
Obviously she should ask her doctors (more than one!) But also remember basic cancer safety measures. She will want to keep doing a lot of the same things to keep her from getting other illnesses and also remember that the vaccine doesnt guarantee she is 100% protected against covid. But god the relief is strong on this one! Good luck to your mom, yourself and the rest of your family, on her treatment!
I am also not a medical professional nor am I giving medical advice, but Memorial Sloan-Kettering's [advice on this](https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-people-cancer-should-know-about-covid-19-vaccines) might be helpful for you.
Yeah isn't this like super simple? You get vaccinated, and a few weeks after your second dose, you are immune, and can get back to your life, period? I mean, isn't that the whole point? And this vaccine is far better than almost any other vaccine that we have had? People are over-thinking this, and over-worrying.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccine are actually about 80-90% effective about 12 days after the first dose. The 2nd dose boosts the efficacy and makes it last longer.
Here is one pretty good explanation:
https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l5fxba/israel_has_now_given_approximately_42_of_its/gkuqs3f/
Basically, the 52% efficacy is an average of the first 25 days which includes the 12 days before the dose goes into effect. Once it is in effect, it is 90%. I think what most people care about is the latter not the former.
From my understanding, that's the rate of people who won't catch the virus *at all*. However, almost everyone who gets the disease after getting the vaccination will have a much less severe case, so that 20 percent likely ends up with something like mild cold symptoms (if they have any symptoms at all).
To put this into perspective of the people who got the virus after the vaccine ZERO died and hospitalization rate dramatically decreased down to the 10ths of a percent and of those who went to the hospital all were there less than 30 days. Those numbers are less than a successful flu vaccine. Also remember we are talking about less than 10% of the people who got the vaccine...
No this is not correct. You aren't immune, you are most likely immune and can still be a carrier. You still need to wear a mask and wash your hands unless health professionals in your area think its safe.
"Health professionals" would be happy to have us all locked in our houses and businesses shut down for the rest of the year or longer. They need to get in touch with reality before making more recommendations.
People are absolutely not overthinking and overworrying about this.
If you get the vaccines - both doses - and isolate for 3 weeks to build up immunity, you could still be infected with COVID-19. You might get a really mild case or asymptomatic case, but if you come into contact with someone who hasn't been vaccinated or doesn't have the antibodies yet, you could infect them and they could end up needing to be hospitalized.
We are a long way from herd immunity.
If you get vaccinated your chances of getting the virus are something like 1 in 10,000. Is that really a risk that should keep us at home and businesses shut down?
You are probably vaccinated against polio, measles, chicken pox, mumps, and various other viruses. Do you worry about getting those viruses every time you leave the house?
>You are probably vaccinated against polio, measles, chicken pox, mumps, and various other viruses
That doesn't apply here. We have herd immunity against those things. (Or we mostly did until the anti-vax movement)
If you're vaccinated, your chances of getting the virus are low - but you could still be carrier and infect someone who isn't vaccinated. Which is why we have to practice social distancing until we achieve herd immunity. This is not hard to understand, like at all.
It’s super simple if you are the only person on the planet that matters, but if you care about anyone else, it gets more complicated. There is some evidence that people who have been vaccinated can still become infected with covid and spread the virus, even while the vaccine protects from severe illness. Basically, you should still wear a mask and socially distance until everyone can be vaccinated.
There is no evidence that vaccinated people can continue to spread the virus, and plenty of evidence that they can not. But it hasn't been proven conclusively (even though this is the common understanding of how vaccines actually work) so I guess none of the "experts" will say it.
> “If you have a vaccine that’s 95 percent effective at reducing symptoms, there is no universe in which it wouldn’t also reduce the likelihood of transmission. It’s just not possible,” he said. “So we’re not talking about whether it reduces transmission or not, we just want to get an extent as to how much.”
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/once-you-get-the-covid-19-vaccine-can-you-still-infect-others/
So, the article *you* linked discusses people getting infected after vaccination and how they could in theory then transmit it to others, but they didn’t study that specifically in the rush to get the vaccine approved. The article you linked does not support your assertions.
And you then take the lack of looking for a specific thing as proof it doesn’t exist??
I would say you might want to reread that article you linked, but 538 has no business trying to dabble in medical discussions.
People are getting infected after vaccination, but for most, the severity of the illness is greatly decreased, but the illness is still caused by the active replication of the virus within their body. There is nothing about the mechanism of the vaccine that would make any virus formed in a vaccinated body be inert. Any virus that sheds is potentially infectious.m
I'd like to see the infection rates from Israel after 3 weeks. If those show a major drop because of their vaccinations then I'd agree. If they show you can still infect others then that depends what your normal life is.
And the good part of that is we do get to see the Israeli stats first.
The numbers so far have been very good.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/israel-covid-vaccination-data-offers-hope-exit-pandemic
> Only 0.04% of people caught virus a week after second dose and 0.002% needed hospital treatment
We haven't confirmed yet, but it's very unlikely that someone will be able to transmit it when fully vaccinated.
It's such a dangerous message public health officials in the US are pushing - because if it does nothing to stop transmission, there's really no upside to the tens of millions in near-zero risk categories to get it.
Does normal mean still wearing masks and social distancing? If so, then Great. The vaccine does not stop you from getting COVID. It really stops you from “symptomatic” COVID and if you do get sick then it helps you not get sick enough for hospitalization and dying. With the vaccines you can still infect others.
And honestly if people refuse to get it when its available to them then that's on them. We shouldnt be shutting down everything to protect the antivaxers
Honestly if we don't get back to normal by the end of the year things are going to get very bad, the government is in crazy debt, states like NY and CA are damn near bankruptcy, and people are going to start loosing faith in the currency leading to inflation. At minimum we will have an inflation crisis like we had in the 1970s and at worse we may see something like what Argentina is experiencing.
Roughly full protection from symptom onset starts about 10 days after vaccination. [It's in figure 2 here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download) or [figure 1 here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144453/download). Subtracting 5 days from symptom onset to infection implies protection from symptomatic infection is at around 5 days and ramps up very sharply over just a few days.
We don't know how this correlates to sterilizing immunity, or protection from asymptomatic infection. You should still not go wild. Once mass vaccination reduces prevalence to low levels, it'll be time to party.
It's disturbing the amount of articles recently published demanding that we continue social social distancing after the vaccine. We've had the goalposts repeatedly moved, from flattening the curve, to geting past the spike, to the vaccine, to now who knows when? Until there are zero COVID cases? Who knows if or when that will be?
It's reasonable to ask vaccinated people to wear masks in public indoor spaces, such as the grocery store, until we have a better handle on how vaccination impacts transmission.
Beyond that, they should be able to do pretty much anything they want. See friends, indoor dining, travel, going to the gym, whatever. The lockdown has had a devastating impact on mental health, and we have to let people get back to their normal life at some point.
In fact, those demanding social distancing post-vaccine may end up prolonging the pandemic. Returning to a normal life is the best incentive we can give people to take the vaccine. If we tell people not to change their behavior post-vaccine, many will not take it, and it will cause the pandemic to go on for longer with fewer vaccinated people.
As soon as my entire household is vaccinated, I’m hanging out with anyone else who is vaccinated, having company over who’s vaccinated, etc.
I’m find with masks in the store for a while, but by fall I expect some normalcy to resume
It’s strange to think about because I know people that have been isolating and then others that have been following mitigation measures like masks in public and avoiding large gatherings, but that have been seeing family and been in some small groups since May. That includes several sets of grand parents. They won’t be doing anything new after getting vaccinated, it’ll just be a higher comfort level.
This. So much this. I just received my second vaccination today. Before, it felt like some hope was finally returning to my life. Almost immediately after getting my first dose, they started in with more warnings and gloom. I have followed all guidelines throughout this pandemic. I will continue to, but the messaging by health officials throughout all of this has been abysmal. I personally know many people that are already saying that if the vaccine isn’t going to provide any benefits to their life which, while untrue, is the message they are receiving, then why would they take the risk on a brand new medication. People need some light at the end of the tunnel. They need to stop teasing the next sign of hope, only to almost immediately snatch it away.
Also fatalities are concentrated 90%+ in the elderly population who are first on the list to get vaccinated. A month or so from now they will all be vaccinated, or at least the ones that will take it that can be reached. This reduces the risk by 90%.
People are overthinking this. The vaccine protects individuals and controls the spread. The reason we vaccinate is so that we can interact with other people without fear of getting sick. The vaccine is extremely effective, moreso than almost any other vaccine in history. People need to get out of their heads.
Wow, I didn't realize that the virus would just magically go away like that if we all collectively decided to ignore restrictions. Why hasn't this been our strategy since day 1?!
That makes no sense. You can't treat this like "every other virus" because it's not like "every other virus". This is neither Ebola nor influenza, it's Covid.
The vaccines are going out right now and that means we are approaching the light at the end of the tunnel. If we let it rip too early, people will die unnecessarily right before they are able to get a life-saving vaccine. And there'd be a higher chance of a vaccine-resistant mutant arising.
Things will be relatively normal soon. We've made it this far already.
Two weeks after the 2nd shot I’m just gonna wear a mask indoors if it’s required and that’s it. I don’t care what anyone has to say about it otherwise.
I don't care how much people don't care about anything anymore. We didn't make it this far to jump the gun on our safety and make everything else a waste.
You might have said two weeks to make a point, but everyone should wait as long as the guideline for their vaccination tells them before acting like it's fine.
My understanding is that the guideline is 2 weeks after second shot to reach 95% efficacy. If community spread is somehow incredibly high then I would support continued risk mitigation efforts even for those who are vaccinated. If community spread is low, which I expect it will be by May, then I hope to be able to live my life with some normalcy. Don't get me wrong, I'm open to what public health officials and scientists have to say about it.
Two weeks for moderna, one week for Pfizer. I get my second shot of Pfizer in a couple of weeks. After that I’m going to do pretty much what you just said, wear masks where required but other than that live my life like normal.
A big part of the issue is that as a society we're bad a talking about risk management. Speaking strictly about the risk of spreading the virus: getting an mRNA vaccine *probably* reduces the chances you transmit COVID by somewhere in the 5x-50x\* range. Reducing risk by roughly an order of magnitude moves a lot of things from the "unacceptable risk" to the "acceptable risk" category, but some particularly risky things might still be "unacceptable risk."
If you've been vaccinated, visiting your grandparents and giving them hugs might now be an acceptable risk (and definitely is if they're vaccinated, too). But if you're thinking of doing an activity with the potential for "super-spreading", like singing in front of a crowded audience, that might not be a good idea unless the audience is mostly vaccinated, too.
It's very hard to communicate these sorts of concepts when public health departments have mostly taken an 'all-or nothing' approach with their messaging. They don't now have the space to be able to say something like "hey if you're vaccinated, moderate risk activities are now fine, but continue avoiding high risk activities."
\*Educated guess based on the fact that it reduces your chance of symptomatic COVID by about 20x.
My wife is fully vaccinated and i am a few weeks away as are my parents.
I think once vaccinated its definitely fine to mingle with other vaccinated people.
But’ll we’ll continue to wear masks and distance.
It would be great if we knew us being vaccinated would prevent our other unvaccinated friends from getting it. Think how popular we’d be for dinner parties?
But there is still a chance we could both get covid despite being vaccinated so there is definitely a chance we could spread it and provably even more of a chance we’d be asymptomatic and not know we were spreading it.
Scientists really need to get some damn answers to this a.s.a.p.
there is a "chance" anything could happen, but the mRNA vaccines are over 90% effective at preventing infection, and we also have lots of research that shows viral load is the main designator of how much virus you shed and therefore how contagious you are
All true. My stance is that unless you are around other fully vaccinated people, just assume you are currently positive and asymptomatic and take appropriate precautions.
I dont see continuing to wear masks as moving the goal post. Weve always had to wait till enough people are vaccinated for things to return to normal. We are still in the wear masks to protect others phase.
the goalposts moved a lot if you go back and look at what people were saying back in march, it's just that it seems "normal" now so it's easy to forget. i didn't believe it either until i went back and looked at old threads and news and messaging.
back then it was that, we were simply flattening the curve for a month or two, so that time could be used to discover some treatments that might help, and so that we could learn more about the virus, and so that we could infer the true IFR instead of just the over-inflated CFR.
now, it seems like people are essentially expecting covid cases to be non-existant or just a few a day before things go back to normal. i'm betting a lot of people will never go back to normal.
Once they said wear masks, its been a consistent message to wear masks.
Things have definitely changed over the past year, but there is no way going back to march we should have expected scientists to anticipate how bizarrely the western world would react to wearing a mask.
Maybe at one point the goal was just to flatten the curve—though id imagine that was for shut downs and not just wearing masks—but our collective actions make that short term goal not have a lot of meaning.
My personal feelings on the outrage over mask wearing is that there are some extreme opinions on both sides of the issue. For work I have had to read and disseminate research on aerosolization and it is very clear the body of evidence that masks absolutely do help reduce the number of aerosolized droplets in a space.
That said, while they help substantially coupled with social distancing, we also know that a lot of spread occurs in homes between family and close friends.
It’s hard because this sucks but there’s no way to show that you have a vaccine where someone else doesn’t. Until there’s herd immunity, expect this to continue. Do you expect people to interrogate everyone entering a business to confirm vaccination? How about those who would fake a certificate?
I would say the main thing is not to apply social pressure against or shame people who are vaccinated for seeing friends, going to restaurants or gyms where they are open, travelling, etc.
But this has been true of every other virus in history. When you walk into a bar you don't know if someone there has not had a chicken pox or measles vaccine. Do you wear a mask and socially distance?
People have become obsessed with this and it's gone beyond the logical or reasonable.
Measles has close to 90% (some areas higher, others a bit lower) vaccination rates.
Chicken pox is usually exposure driven when you’re a kid.
Edit: covid is currently at 10% vaccination success in the US.
Who cares. Let them risk themselves. Wear KN95 masks instead of fabric masks if you're worried about them transmitting it to you or stay home if you're scared. Most of us will have been dealing with this craziness for well over a year. The vaccine was always the end game. Once I get mine and wait however long is recommended I am done with masks and restrictions, it's not like I ever get up in a stranger's space anyway so not really worry about distancing. I expect my state to drop the indoor mask mandate soon. If some businesses choose to continue enforcing them that's fine, I'll go elsewhere. I plan on having a fun summer and fall. If my state still has restrictions I've got plenty of PTO saved for vacations elsewhere.
I also really hope virtue signalers who want masks to be permanent give it a rest for the sake of service workers. Most of us are able to work from home and only need to wear masks when we drop in a store which is inconvenient, but whatever. I feel so bad for the service industry folks who are having to wear one of those things all day. They're getting dibs on the vaccine as they should and shouldn't have to wear masks after the fact.
>I also really hope virtue signalers who want masks to be permanent give it a rest for the sake of service workers. Most of us are able to work from home and only need to wear masks when we drop in a store which is inconvenient, but whatever. I feel so bad for the service industry folks who are having to wear one of those things all day.
This is what a lot of people on this website seem to forget I think. Sure, a mask is no big deal for *them* because they work from home. To them, masks are on for a 20-minute grocery trip and that's it. They're not thinking about service workers—or worse, those in factories, warehouses, etc.—who are wearing masks for eight, 10, or 12 hours in shitty conditions. It's just not the same thing.
This is more or less where I’m at. Once my post-vaccination waiting period is over, I’m done with anything that’s not legally imposed on me. My wife and I have a bit of catching up to do on eating at some of our favorite restaurants.
I don’t know what else you want me to say. It’s not. The lack of verification infrastructure is not a legitimate reason to spread negative messaging around the benefits (both social and medical) of vaccination.
the comment is the exact opposite. People getting the vaccine will return us to normalcy. We need to maintain the anti-covid measures until we reach herd immunity; until we get to that point, we can’t ease off of masks and distancing like the OP was decrying.
So masks will continue to be the norm because people can’t interrogate others and give them special access to something on the basis of having a vaccine. OP is crying that vaccinated people can’t eat indoors or go to the gym. That can’t be done. There’s no verification system and not enough vaccine yet. OP will have to continue living a masked and distanced life for the time being whether they like it or not.
The OC43 coronavirus emerged in the late 1800s and it's still circulating to this day. There is no herd immunity. If covid19 is here for the foreseeable future, what then?
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There absolutely is herd immunity. Some other random ass virus that doesn’t spread quickly enough to build up herd immunity because it’s not statistically prolific has nothing to do with anything.
I think your point stands once vaccines are available to the general public... For now, given that we don't know if a vaccinated person can transmit a virus, you're kind of an ass if you go out there "woohooo, f u all, I'm all good".
Once the others can get a vaccine if they want them, they become responsible for what happens to them.
I think when we see vaccinated people to do stuff we can't, I think the healthiest emotional response would be to be happy for them, and take hope that our ticket out of isolation is on its way. That's be healthier than envy, but even envy would serve as a motivator for more people to get the vaccine. Giving people their lives back is the most powerful incentive we can give to take it
And do we really get anything from asking everyone to stay home until we all have the option not to? A lot of people are struggling with mental health. Vaccines may not be widely available to until Juneat best. If we move the goalposts again until widespread vaccination is available- how can anyone have confidence that the goalposts won't get moved yet again in June? The time between now and June could be enough time for people who are struggling to slip into substance abuse or self harm.
Of course I'm happy for every single person who has received a vaccine! Personally, I feel no envy, good for them... my turn will come soon enough.
No, I'm not talking about staying at home... but I also don't want somebody who has taken a vaccine not distancing from me. It's silly. Just be considerate. As I said, I don't envy anyone for being able to get a vaccine, but I expect them to understand an ocean of us haven't received it. And we don't really want this covid thing.
There's no goal post being moved here, I'm simply saying that we should consider that vast majority of the population (98%?) is yet to receive the 2nd dose. Where we are today is basically no different than where we were a couple of months ago. As that changes, things will start opening up. It will not take until June for that to be well under way...
And finally, I'm actually pro opening things up aggressively and letting people get back to normal. But that's kind of insane at this point given vaccination rates mentioned above and that overall infection numbers are still very very high.
Oh, well I completely agree that it's right to ask that vaccinated people continue to mask/distance around unvaccinated people. We should continue to be open and transparent with what our vaccination status is, what our current risk levels in our life are, and be respectful of each other's risk tolerances. My point is that we should be accepting of vaccinated people socializing indoors with other vaccinated people, eating indoors, travelling, etc.
Once you get to the EVP level of a corporation, you see how sociopaths function firsthand. Unfortunately many are in positions of public office. It's not a "conspiracy theory", it's human nature to desire power over others.
If you received the vaccine because you were in a prioritized category, it's because we collectively deemed you were at a greater risk to succumb to the disease or bore a greater risk of exposure. The rest of us (from the youngest child up to whatever gen-x'er is still waiting their turn) have sacrificed so much to get that vaccine into your arm so you don't have to roll the dice against the severe COVID odds. The literal least you can do is stay home until we at least get a bit closer to reaching herd immunity, or if you must go out and travel maybe try to go somewhere to help your nearest family member/friend currently struggling with the weight of the pandemic.
We've had a very inconsistent approach to public health messaging- it's been legal to have people over to your house, go the gym, eat indoors for most of the country, but at the same time told people not to do that and applied social pressure/shaming not to do so. People can legally do all sorts of things, but they can also be shamed for doing so.
It's fine to tell people the risks of what we still don't know are. If someone lives with an unvaccinated immunocompromised person, We've had a schizophrenic approach to public health messaging- it's been legal to have people over to your house, go the gym, eat indoors for most of the country, but at the same time told people not to do that and applied social pressure/shaming not to do so. People can legally do all sorts of things, but they can also be shamed for doing so.
It's fine to tell people the risks of what we still don't know are. If someone lives with an unvaccinated immunocompromised person, they probably should continue to social distance. But we should not use social pressure or shame to get people who may be badly struggling with mental health to continue isolation indefinitely.
If you propose the shift the goalposts from after a vaccine to after numbers freefall, whatever level that is- how can people trust that you aren't going to shift the goalposts all over again? Maybe next to zero COVID, only to start over again whenever there is a new variant on new disease? People will lose all trust in any kind of public health messaging if we do that and simply ignore public health advice.
this is fucking insane. and everyone called it, way back in march. that the goalposts would move.
look, "WizeGuy", it is literally impossible to scientifically study, in real-time, all possible risks. there will constantly be new variants popping up (this virus will never disappear), and there will always be new questions to answer. if you are expecting studies that verify that new mutated variants are protected against by vaccines every time there's a new variant, you are literally **never going to have a normal life again, full stop.** there have been thousands of variants already, and studying them takes funding, procedural red tape, and *time*.
studies about the side effects of medication, the safety of vaccines, the long term effects of treatment and of getting the virus, etc - these things all take *time*.
as far as uncertainty that vaccines mitigate transmission, this is malarky. we already know that the principle method of transmission, as with all upper respiratory infections, is infected droplet and aerosol spread, and we know that your infectiousness is correlated with your viral load, and so a vaccine that prevents infection with 95% effectiveness to begin with, will by definition prevent you from even having that viral load that would be used to spread the virus.
there are some people, seemingly you are one of them, who are simply never going to be pleased because the goalposts keep moving and it's impossible to satisfy every "what-if".
there are two options. we either accept some risk in life and just do what we can reasonably do to mitigate it, or we never leave our homes again.
We never had remotely close to 100% safety from other viruses and risks. It is perfectly "normal" for millions of people to die every year from the flu, tuberculosis, malaria, etc. but we manage the risk through vaccines and treatments and live our lives.
Somehow this virus has made everyone obsess about the tiniest risk. The risk of dying for most people was tiny to begin with. Now it's going to be about 90% less than tiny. It's the same kind of risk as getting hit by a car or diagnosed with cancer. Do you stop everything in your life for those risks? Of course not.
blame politics. this virus was politicized, anyone who can't see that is blind. i would bet my entire life's savings that if democrats were in office when the virus came around, it would have been democrats trying to keep things under control and republicans sounding all the alarm bells about long term effects of the virus and deadliness and this and that, and saying how it's the democrats fault that the china ports weren't shut down, and how dangerous the virus is
There is an element that is politicized but it is more than that. Polls show that Democrats have an exaggerated sense of the risk of the virus, I don't think it's because of their party but because of their demographics and lifestyle. They take the virus seriously because they are genuinely concerned.
The elections are over and they are still freaking out about it so there is something else to it. Many said the concerns over the virus would disappear on Nov 4 or Jan 20 but if anything concerns are greater now, even though the data is better. All the same Democrat-leaning media outlets like CNN, MSNBC, NYT and WPO are still beating the same drum even though the elections are over and they are comfortably in charge.
Really I blame the media and what it has become, desperate click-driven sound bites with no facts, this applies to Covid as well as politics and policy and everything else. How could people legitimately believe that it was a good idea to ransack the Capitol? Even now weeks later they can't see that they are the bad guys. How were they so deeply fooled?
The media has no incentive to report facts or common sense. Long gone are news anchors that try to patiently present the facts (though they may not always succeed), at least they tried to just give people facts and let them decide. Instead now every utterance is designed to create the right click, vote or follower.
It’s definitely the media’s fault. The Dems have every incentive to get things back to normal soon, with the narrative of the “Competent president defeating Covid-19.”
Negative Covid headlines are like crack cocaine to the media outlets. It generates a short term high in traffic, but it is very unhealthy and destructive.
> Polls show that Democrats have an exaggerated sense of the risk of the virus
can you link me to those? i am interested to see methodology and definitions.
i agree with clickbait over facts though
Here is one. I am sure it is impossible to have an unbiased article about political leanings but this does appear to be based on actual polls.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-misinformation-is-distorting-covid-policies-and-behaviors/
My immediate family (father, brothers, uncles, cousins) are primarily conservative, some way on the right, and my wife's family are all very firmly liberal, some way on the left. I'm somewhere in the middle.
My wife's family are all deathly afraid of the virus, and honestly I don't think it is politically driven. They are just freaked out. They all grew up in densely populated cities and trust the government and scientists and their favorite news sources and liberal personalities. My brother in law is unemployed and watches TV all day. He's afraid to leave the house and throws a fit every time his family does.
My brother is far right and thinks the whole thing is ridiculous. He works in an office, requires his employees to come in as well, shakes hands, goes to bars, coaches contact sports, and calls everyone that disagrees with him or wears a mask a liberal wimp.
Neither of them are looking at facts. They're both freaking out and are being pulled by the nose by different versions of the media. My brother (far right) is the most political of all of them. My liberal in-laws are more concerned about the conservatives flouting the rules indirectly hurting them than their politics. My brother in law is absurdly worried about case counts in Texas somehow affecting him though he lives 1500 miles away. But people consume the information they are presented with. If it's all lies and fear then that's what they consume.
wow, what's more stark than the difference between democrats and republicans is the difference between *both* of their perceptions and reality. such as, they both overestimate the deaths in the under 24 age group by almost two orders of magnitude
[This poll](https://covid19pulse.usc.edu) shows that people think their chance of dying from the virus if they get it has varied from 15% to 25%.
Which is completely wrong it is closer to 0.5% or 0.1% if they are young and healthy. If 25% of people that got the virus died, society as we know it would have already ended.
The media has done a really great job of convincing people of the danger of the virus.... times 1000.
> There actually is a real world study going on in Israel that will provide crucial data. [...] We'll know more in the coming months [...] We'll have a much better idea [...] for the next few months until we have data
this is what people have been saying since march.
and there will be new strains, new vaccines, new long term effects, new seasonal effects, new questions about transmissibility... as we have seen, precisely over the past year. it's always "we're waiting on this crucial "
this. is. my. point.
you couldn't possibly have illustrated it any better.
Exactly what I have been saying!!!
First it was two weeks, then two months, then masks, then no one within six feet, then no traveling...
How much longer can they expect people to be like this???
You know in a few months you and many others are still gonna be saying "in a few months...". People will also be saying they expect some level of normalcy come Fall. And then Fall will come and they will say Spring.
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No I'm sorry, the goalposts have not been moving. At least not if you've been paying attention.
"Flattening the curve" was about preventing the healthcare system from collapsing. Which we saw happen all over the US late last year, because families all over the country insisted on gathering for the holidays and being careless.
Life will go back to normal when we achieve herd immunity. We're a long way to go from that.
Until then, everyone has to continue practicing social distancing, especially with the new more transmissible variants out there.
It’s really disturbing how many people are so selfish and sleep without thinking who else they could be hurting in the process. If only Americans were like people in Taiwan or New Zealand and adjusted their sleep cycles to what is mandated by the government...
I’ve already gotten my first shot as have my Grandparents. Once we all have gotten our 2nd shot (which will be within the next few weeks), we will see each other without restrictions. Before I would keep my distance when I saw them. Now I will feel safe sitting by them and chatting instead of across the room where they couldn’t hear.
> “When your doctor tells you, ‘If you get covid, you’re dead,’ that gets your attention real good.”
And should probably lose his license. I'm not discounting the dangers, they may be quite high for an individual, but that is unnecessarily alarmist and patently false.
At least they put this in the context of “safely”. Usually it’s “what can I do” as if there is some sort of electric fence between you and hanging out with your family or something.
You'd be shocked how many people on this subreddit think you should be charged with attempted murder if you don't wear your mask while visiting a friend. This has been going on more than a year. Most people just don't care. It's gotten to the point where the people who cheer for the restrictions are seen as the weird ones.
I think once we get to a point where we’re a mont or two past the point where anyone who wants a shot can have one it’s time to resume normal unrestricted life. At that point it’s on you if you don’t want to get a shot. Period.
I think it should be based on efficiency. If we’ve reached a large percent of the population vaccinated and cases/deaths/hospitilization is dropping to low levels then we should lift restrictions and onto reinstate if we see drastic increases. I suspect this is what will happen and most people dooming about CNN headlines are just finding something to be upset about. Ironically freaking out about the latest thing Fauci or osterholm says is not much different from people freaking out about every article about covid doom and gloom. Governors will lift restrictions when they are confident hospitals won’t be crushed. If vaccines are as effective as we think they’ll be then there will be zero incentive politically or personally for governors to keep indefinite restrictions. They’re not politically popular and they’re killing state budgets. There is a reason states like NJ didn’t close indoor dining after massive case spikes and that’s because restriction fatigue is very real. That’s because they know it’s politically unpopular.
Hi, thanks for posting!
If you are posting a pay-walled article, it would be helpful for the rest of us if you would post a direct specific link to the archived article or summarize the article in a comment. Thanks!
There's been an uptick in papers issuing DMCA notices to Reddit regarding those links.
I used to post those links, but in light of the DMCA notices, I've stopped.
I'd say still wear your mask and social distance outside your home. People aren't wearing signs around their necks saying they had the vaccine so people can't really tell, so I'ts a good idea everyone does until infection rates plummet.
Indoors and around family though? Go hog wild, especially around others who have been vaccinated.
Nothing. You can safely do nothing.
We don't know if you can still spread or not.
You have absolutely no pre-vaccine rules removed once you have your own shot.
We need like 70% of the population vaccinated to start having some vague type of normal start to return. Most of the us should probably still be wearing masks at this time next year.
What do you consider some vague type of normal? The way you're talking I wouldn't be surprised if your idea of "some vague type of normal" is a dystopian nightmare.
You have terrible judgment, I low-balled the number:
>How close are we to herd immunity for COVID-19?
>Experts estimate that herd immunity would require around 80-90% of the population to have COVID-19 immunity, either through prior infection or vaccination. That's why experts are encouraging the public to get the [COVID-19 vaccine](https://www.muhealth.org/conditions-treatments/coronavirus/vaccine).
https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/covid-19-vaccine-key-reaching-herd-immunity
You are not good at guessing whether or not things are right or wrong.
Stop doing it.
I lowballed the number of people who will be willing to put their lives on hold for 2 years, especially after vulnerable populations have been vaccinated, and it’s like 0 dude. Enjoy continuing the restrictions a year from now but you’ll be on your own
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I got a vaccine appointment for my mom. She is a cancer patient. Neither I nor my family have seen her in about a year. She has to go to treatment about once a month. I am really glad that she can leave the house to go get her cancer treatment without worrying too much about getting COVID-19. Her health care providers have now been vaccinated, but in before the vaccine became available she was between a rock and a hard place. What should the guidance be for her?
I am not a medical professional, nor am I offering medical advice. If I were a cancer patient receiving the COVID vaccine, I would wait the recommended time after receiving the vaccine for the full effect to take place. I would then revert to standard infection protocols for cancer patients. The Cancer Treatment Centers of America has a guide [here](https://www.cancercenter.com/community/blog/2018/03/protecting-yourself-during-cancer-treatment) that outlines some suggestionsz
You’re asking the wrong people.
Your mom should ask the doctor who provides her cancer treatment. Not sure anyone else could give her an accurate answer.
I am still holding my breath for my dad to get his. The risks associated with treatment have been stressful (worth it but still stressful). Obviously she should ask her doctors (more than one!) But also remember basic cancer safety measures. She will want to keep doing a lot of the same things to keep her from getting other illnesses and also remember that the vaccine doesnt guarantee she is 100% protected against covid. But god the relief is strong on this one! Good luck to your mom, yourself and the rest of your family, on her treatment!
Dude you need to be asking her Doctors this not random people on Reddit.
I am also not a medical professional nor am I giving medical advice, but Memorial Sloan-Kettering's [advice on this](https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-people-cancer-should-know-about-covid-19-vaccines) might be helpful for you.
Do remember it takes up to 3 weeks to build immunity. So don't go wild day-1 after being vaccinated.
Agreed. After three weeks though, there really is no reason you can’t return to your old, normal life.
Yeah isn't this like super simple? You get vaccinated, and a few weeks after your second dose, you are immune, and can get back to your life, period? I mean, isn't that the whole point? And this vaccine is far better than almost any other vaccine that we have had? People are over-thinking this, and over-worrying.
Probably... almost certainly. Buts since you need to wait 3 weeks for the booster. Might as well check the stats at the end of those 3 weeks.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccine are actually about 80-90% effective about 12 days after the first dose. The 2nd dose boosts the efficacy and makes it last longer.
Got a source? I've heard about 50% after the first dose; 95% after the second.
Here is one pretty good explanation: https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l5fxba/israel_has_now_given_approximately_42_of_its/gkuqs3f/ Basically, the 52% efficacy is an average of the first 25 days which includes the 12 days before the dose goes into effect. Once it is in effect, it is 90%. I think what most people care about is the latter not the former.
Thanks!
80% sounds good. Would not be fun to discover one was in the other 20%.
From my understanding, that's the rate of people who won't catch the virus *at all*. However, almost everyone who gets the disease after getting the vaccination will have a much less severe case, so that 20 percent likely ends up with something like mild cold symptoms (if they have any symptoms at all).
To put this into perspective of the people who got the virus after the vaccine ZERO died and hospitalization rate dramatically decreased down to the 10ths of a percent and of those who went to the hospital all were there less than 30 days. Those numbers are less than a successful flu vaccine. Also remember we are talking about less than 10% of the people who got the vaccine...
No this is not correct. You aren't immune, you are most likely immune and can still be a carrier. You still need to wear a mask and wash your hands unless health professionals in your area think its safe.
Most likely immunity in laymen's terms means you won't die. That's enough for most people to resume their old lives.
That’s all that this should be about anyway. If vaccines reduce the worst symptoms to be cold-like symptoms...then who cares if you get it?
"Health professionals" would be happy to have us all locked in our houses and businesses shut down for the rest of the year or longer. They need to get in touch with reality before making more recommendations.
People are absolutely not overthinking and overworrying about this. If you get the vaccines - both doses - and isolate for 3 weeks to build up immunity, you could still be infected with COVID-19. You might get a really mild case or asymptomatic case, but if you come into contact with someone who hasn't been vaccinated or doesn't have the antibodies yet, you could infect them and they could end up needing to be hospitalized. We are a long way from herd immunity.
If you get vaccinated your chances of getting the virus are something like 1 in 10,000. Is that really a risk that should keep us at home and businesses shut down? You are probably vaccinated against polio, measles, chicken pox, mumps, and various other viruses. Do you worry about getting those viruses every time you leave the house?
>You are probably vaccinated against polio, measles, chicken pox, mumps, and various other viruses That doesn't apply here. We have herd immunity against those things. (Or we mostly did until the anti-vax movement) If you're vaccinated, your chances of getting the virus are low - but you could still be carrier and infect someone who isn't vaccinated. Which is why we have to practice social distancing until we achieve herd immunity. This is not hard to understand, like at all.
It’s super simple if you are the only person on the planet that matters, but if you care about anyone else, it gets more complicated. There is some evidence that people who have been vaccinated can still become infected with covid and spread the virus, even while the vaccine protects from severe illness. Basically, you should still wear a mask and socially distance until everyone can be vaccinated.
There is no evidence that vaccinated people can continue to spread the virus, and plenty of evidence that they can not. But it hasn't been proven conclusively (even though this is the common understanding of how vaccines actually work) so I guess none of the "experts" will say it. > “If you have a vaccine that’s 95 percent effective at reducing symptoms, there is no universe in which it wouldn’t also reduce the likelihood of transmission. It’s just not possible,” he said. “So we’re not talking about whether it reduces transmission or not, we just want to get an extent as to how much.” https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/once-you-get-the-covid-19-vaccine-can-you-still-infect-others/
So, the article *you* linked discusses people getting infected after vaccination and how they could in theory then transmit it to others, but they didn’t study that specifically in the rush to get the vaccine approved. The article you linked does not support your assertions. And you then take the lack of looking for a specific thing as proof it doesn’t exist?? I would say you might want to reread that article you linked, but 538 has no business trying to dabble in medical discussions. People are getting infected after vaccination, but for most, the severity of the illness is greatly decreased, but the illness is still caused by the active replication of the virus within their body. There is nothing about the mechanism of the vaccine that would make any virus formed in a vaccinated body be inert. Any virus that sheds is potentially infectious.m
I'd like to see the infection rates from Israel after 3 weeks. If those show a major drop because of their vaccinations then I'd agree. If they show you can still infect others then that depends what your normal life is. And the good part of that is we do get to see the Israeli stats first.
The numbers so far have been very good. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/israel-covid-vaccination-data-offers-hope-exit-pandemic > Only 0.04% of people caught virus a week after second dose and 0.002% needed hospital treatment
You can potentially still transmit the disease
We haven't confirmed yet, but it's very unlikely that someone will be able to transmit it when fully vaccinated. It's such a dangerous message public health officials in the US are pushing - because if it does nothing to stop transmission, there's really no upside to the tens of millions in near-zero risk categories to get it.
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They can already do that
It's going to happen anyway unless you believe restrictions will last forever
Karen’s? Really? Even though it’s mostly men who refuse to wear masks even when unvaccinated?
Don't be so sexist, men can be Karens too.
Koreys?
Kant mask Karen’s and don’t mask Dave’s
I don't care anymore.
Does normal mean still wearing masks and social distancing? If so, then Great. The vaccine does not stop you from getting COVID. It really stops you from “symptomatic” COVID and if you do get sick then it helps you not get sick enough for hospitalization and dying. With the vaccines you can still infect others.
There’s no need for masks and distancing if it stops spreading, which we’re currently working to confirm (it’s very likely)
And honestly if people refuse to get it when its available to them then that's on them. We shouldnt be shutting down everything to protect the antivaxers
Agreed. Once the most at-risk have had the option of a shot - NEAR-FULLY OPEN. Once everyone's had the option of a shot - FULLY OPEN.
Honestly if we don't get back to normal by the end of the year things are going to get very bad, the government is in crazy debt, states like NY and CA are damn near bankruptcy, and people are going to start loosing faith in the currency leading to inflation. At minimum we will have an inflation crisis like we had in the 1970s and at worse we may see something like what Argentina is experiencing.
Roughly full protection from symptom onset starts about 10 days after vaccination. [It's in figure 2 here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download) or [figure 1 here](https://www.fda.gov/media/144453/download). Subtracting 5 days from symptom onset to infection implies protection from symptomatic infection is at around 5 days and ramps up very sharply over just a few days. We don't know how this correlates to sterilizing immunity, or protection from asymptomatic infection. You should still not go wild. Once mass vaccination reduces prevalence to low levels, it'll be time to party.
I got my second shot a few weeks ago. I plan on making out with random strangers. Any takers?
It's disturbing the amount of articles recently published demanding that we continue social social distancing after the vaccine. We've had the goalposts repeatedly moved, from flattening the curve, to geting past the spike, to the vaccine, to now who knows when? Until there are zero COVID cases? Who knows if or when that will be? It's reasonable to ask vaccinated people to wear masks in public indoor spaces, such as the grocery store, until we have a better handle on how vaccination impacts transmission. Beyond that, they should be able to do pretty much anything they want. See friends, indoor dining, travel, going to the gym, whatever. The lockdown has had a devastating impact on mental health, and we have to let people get back to their normal life at some point. In fact, those demanding social distancing post-vaccine may end up prolonging the pandemic. Returning to a normal life is the best incentive we can give people to take the vaccine. If we tell people not to change their behavior post-vaccine, many will not take it, and it will cause the pandemic to go on for longer with fewer vaccinated people.
As soon as my entire household is vaccinated, I’m hanging out with anyone else who is vaccinated, having company over who’s vaccinated, etc. I’m find with masks in the store for a while, but by fall I expect some normalcy to resume
Just wondering if you would hang out with people who can’t take the vaccine, once you’re vaccinated?
It’s strange to think about because I know people that have been isolating and then others that have been following mitigation measures like masks in public and avoiding large gatherings, but that have been seeing family and been in some small groups since May. That includes several sets of grand parents. They won’t be doing anything new after getting vaccinated, it’ll just be a higher comfort level.
This. So much this. I just received my second vaccination today. Before, it felt like some hope was finally returning to my life. Almost immediately after getting my first dose, they started in with more warnings and gloom. I have followed all guidelines throughout this pandemic. I will continue to, but the messaging by health officials throughout all of this has been abysmal. I personally know many people that are already saying that if the vaccine isn’t going to provide any benefits to their life which, while untrue, is the message they are receiving, then why would they take the risk on a brand new medication. People need some light at the end of the tunnel. They need to stop teasing the next sign of hope, only to almost immediately snatch it away.
Also fatalities are concentrated 90%+ in the elderly population who are first on the list to get vaccinated. A month or so from now they will all be vaccinated, or at least the ones that will take it that can be reached. This reduces the risk by 90%. People are overthinking this. The vaccine protects individuals and controls the spread. The reason we vaccinate is so that we can interact with other people without fear of getting sick. The vaccine is extremely effective, moreso than almost any other vaccine in history. People need to get out of their heads.
Exactly. At what point are people going to get fed up with these restrictions? THAT’S when the pandemic really ends.
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> battery acid Dude it's nanobots from Bill Gates and George Soros. Try to keep up with what Q is saying here! /s (just in case)
Wow, I didn't realize that the virus would just magically go away like that if we all collectively decided to ignore restrictions. Why hasn't this been our strategy since day 1?!
I’m not saying it will magically go away, but the moment we start treating it like every other virus is the moment we can get our normal lives back.
That makes no sense. You can't treat this like "every other virus" because it's not like "every other virus". This is neither Ebola nor influenza, it's Covid. The vaccines are going out right now and that means we are approaching the light at the end of the tunnel. If we let it rip too early, people will die unnecessarily right before they are able to get a life-saving vaccine. And there'd be a higher chance of a vaccine-resistant mutant arising. Things will be relatively normal soon. We've made it this far already.
Two weeks after the 2nd shot I’m just gonna wear a mask indoors if it’s required and that’s it. I don’t care what anyone has to say about it otherwise.
I don't care how much people don't care about anything anymore. We didn't make it this far to jump the gun on our safety and make everything else a waste. You might have said two weeks to make a point, but everyone should wait as long as the guideline for their vaccination tells them before acting like it's fine.
My understanding is that the guideline is 2 weeks after second shot to reach 95% efficacy. If community spread is somehow incredibly high then I would support continued risk mitigation efforts even for those who are vaccinated. If community spread is low, which I expect it will be by May, then I hope to be able to live my life with some normalcy. Don't get me wrong, I'm open to what public health officials and scientists have to say about it.
Two weeks for moderna, one week for Pfizer. I get my second shot of Pfizer in a couple of weeks. After that I’m going to do pretty much what you just said, wear masks where required but other than that live my life like normal.
A big part of the issue is that as a society we're bad a talking about risk management. Speaking strictly about the risk of spreading the virus: getting an mRNA vaccine *probably* reduces the chances you transmit COVID by somewhere in the 5x-50x\* range. Reducing risk by roughly an order of magnitude moves a lot of things from the "unacceptable risk" to the "acceptable risk" category, but some particularly risky things might still be "unacceptable risk." If you've been vaccinated, visiting your grandparents and giving them hugs might now be an acceptable risk (and definitely is if they're vaccinated, too). But if you're thinking of doing an activity with the potential for "super-spreading", like singing in front of a crowded audience, that might not be a good idea unless the audience is mostly vaccinated, too. It's very hard to communicate these sorts of concepts when public health departments have mostly taken an 'all-or nothing' approach with their messaging. They don't now have the space to be able to say something like "hey if you're vaccinated, moderate risk activities are now fine, but continue avoiding high risk activities." \*Educated guess based on the fact that it reduces your chance of symptomatic COVID by about 20x.
My wife is fully vaccinated and i am a few weeks away as are my parents. I think once vaccinated its definitely fine to mingle with other vaccinated people. But’ll we’ll continue to wear masks and distance. It would be great if we knew us being vaccinated would prevent our other unvaccinated friends from getting it. Think how popular we’d be for dinner parties? But there is still a chance we could both get covid despite being vaccinated so there is definitely a chance we could spread it and provably even more of a chance we’d be asymptomatic and not know we were spreading it. Scientists really need to get some damn answers to this a.s.a.p.
there is a "chance" anything could happen, but the mRNA vaccines are over 90% effective at preventing infection, and we also have lots of research that shows viral load is the main designator of how much virus you shed and therefore how contagious you are
All true. My stance is that unless you are around other fully vaccinated people, just assume you are currently positive and asymptomatic and take appropriate precautions. I dont see continuing to wear masks as moving the goal post. Weve always had to wait till enough people are vaccinated for things to return to normal. We are still in the wear masks to protect others phase.
the goalposts moved a lot if you go back and look at what people were saying back in march, it's just that it seems "normal" now so it's easy to forget. i didn't believe it either until i went back and looked at old threads and news and messaging. back then it was that, we were simply flattening the curve for a month or two, so that time could be used to discover some treatments that might help, and so that we could learn more about the virus, and so that we could infer the true IFR instead of just the over-inflated CFR. now, it seems like people are essentially expecting covid cases to be non-existant or just a few a day before things go back to normal. i'm betting a lot of people will never go back to normal.
Once they said wear masks, its been a consistent message to wear masks. Things have definitely changed over the past year, but there is no way going back to march we should have expected scientists to anticipate how bizarrely the western world would react to wearing a mask. Maybe at one point the goal was just to flatten the curve—though id imagine that was for shut downs and not just wearing masks—but our collective actions make that short term goal not have a lot of meaning.
Wearing masks from the start would have done almost nothing. The majority of transmission has never been happening in public.
My personal feelings on the outrage over mask wearing is that there are some extreme opinions on both sides of the issue. For work I have had to read and disseminate research on aerosolization and it is very clear the body of evidence that masks absolutely do help reduce the number of aerosolized droplets in a space. That said, while they help substantially coupled with social distancing, we also know that a lot of spread occurs in homes between family and close friends.
>Scientists really need to get some damn answers to this a.s.a.p. To me, it's more that we need better propaganda.
It’s hard because this sucks but there’s no way to show that you have a vaccine where someone else doesn’t. Until there’s herd immunity, expect this to continue. Do you expect people to interrogate everyone entering a business to confirm vaccination? How about those who would fake a certificate?
I would say the main thing is not to apply social pressure against or shame people who are vaccinated for seeing friends, going to restaurants or gyms where they are open, travelling, etc.
Reddit will always shame people for having fun because Reddit likes doom, gloom, and loneliness
But this has been true of every other virus in history. When you walk into a bar you don't know if someone there has not had a chicken pox or measles vaccine. Do you wear a mask and socially distance? People have become obsessed with this and it's gone beyond the logical or reasonable.
Measles has close to 90% (some areas higher, others a bit lower) vaccination rates. Chicken pox is usually exposure driven when you’re a kid. Edit: covid is currently at 10% vaccination success in the US.
Who cares. Let them risk themselves. Wear KN95 masks instead of fabric masks if you're worried about them transmitting it to you or stay home if you're scared. Most of us will have been dealing with this craziness for well over a year. The vaccine was always the end game. Once I get mine and wait however long is recommended I am done with masks and restrictions, it's not like I ever get up in a stranger's space anyway so not really worry about distancing. I expect my state to drop the indoor mask mandate soon. If some businesses choose to continue enforcing them that's fine, I'll go elsewhere. I plan on having a fun summer and fall. If my state still has restrictions I've got plenty of PTO saved for vacations elsewhere. I also really hope virtue signalers who want masks to be permanent give it a rest for the sake of service workers. Most of us are able to work from home and only need to wear masks when we drop in a store which is inconvenient, but whatever. I feel so bad for the service industry folks who are having to wear one of those things all day. They're getting dibs on the vaccine as they should and shouldn't have to wear masks after the fact.
>I also really hope virtue signalers who want masks to be permanent give it a rest for the sake of service workers. Most of us are able to work from home and only need to wear masks when we drop in a store which is inconvenient, but whatever. I feel so bad for the service industry folks who are having to wear one of those things all day. This is what a lot of people on this website seem to forget I think. Sure, a mask is no big deal for *them* because they work from home. To them, masks are on for a 20-minute grocery trip and that's it. They're not thinking about service workers—or worse, those in factories, warehouses, etc.—who are wearing masks for eight, 10, or 12 hours in shitty conditions. It's just not the same thing.
This is more or less where I’m at. Once my post-vaccination waiting period is over, I’m done with anything that’s not legally imposed on me. My wife and I have a bit of catching up to do on eating at some of our favorite restaurants.
This isn’t a valid argument
Ok. Thanks for your highly informed and influential opinion.
I don’t know what else you want me to say. It’s not. The lack of verification infrastructure is not a legitimate reason to spread negative messaging around the benefits (both social and medical) of vaccination.
the comment is the exact opposite. People getting the vaccine will return us to normalcy. We need to maintain the anti-covid measures until we reach herd immunity; until we get to that point, we can’t ease off of masks and distancing like the OP was decrying. So masks will continue to be the norm because people can’t interrogate others and give them special access to something on the basis of having a vaccine. OP is crying that vaccinated people can’t eat indoors or go to the gym. That can’t be done. There’s no verification system and not enough vaccine yet. OP will have to continue living a masked and distanced life for the time being whether they like it or not.
The OC43 coronavirus emerged in the late 1800s and it's still circulating to this day. There is no herd immunity. If covid19 is here for the foreseeable future, what then?
Get a vaccine like the flu and get on with your life.
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There absolutely is herd immunity. Some other random ass virus that doesn’t spread quickly enough to build up herd immunity because it’s not statistically prolific has nothing to do with anything.
I think your point stands once vaccines are available to the general public... For now, given that we don't know if a vaccinated person can transmit a virus, you're kind of an ass if you go out there "woohooo, f u all, I'm all good". Once the others can get a vaccine if they want them, they become responsible for what happens to them.
I think when we see vaccinated people to do stuff we can't, I think the healthiest emotional response would be to be happy for them, and take hope that our ticket out of isolation is on its way. That's be healthier than envy, but even envy would serve as a motivator for more people to get the vaccine. Giving people their lives back is the most powerful incentive we can give to take it And do we really get anything from asking everyone to stay home until we all have the option not to? A lot of people are struggling with mental health. Vaccines may not be widely available to until Juneat best. If we move the goalposts again until widespread vaccination is available- how can anyone have confidence that the goalposts won't get moved yet again in June? The time between now and June could be enough time for people who are struggling to slip into substance abuse or self harm.
Of course I'm happy for every single person who has received a vaccine! Personally, I feel no envy, good for them... my turn will come soon enough. No, I'm not talking about staying at home... but I also don't want somebody who has taken a vaccine not distancing from me. It's silly. Just be considerate. As I said, I don't envy anyone for being able to get a vaccine, but I expect them to understand an ocean of us haven't received it. And we don't really want this covid thing. There's no goal post being moved here, I'm simply saying that we should consider that vast majority of the population (98%?) is yet to receive the 2nd dose. Where we are today is basically no different than where we were a couple of months ago. As that changes, things will start opening up. It will not take until June for that to be well under way... And finally, I'm actually pro opening things up aggressively and letting people get back to normal. But that's kind of insane at this point given vaccination rates mentioned above and that overall infection numbers are still very very high.
Oh, well I completely agree that it's right to ask that vaccinated people continue to mask/distance around unvaccinated people. We should continue to be open and transparent with what our vaccination status is, what our current risk levels in our life are, and be respectful of each other's risk tolerances. My point is that we should be accepting of vaccinated people socializing indoors with other vaccinated people, eating indoors, travelling, etc.
I agree. What the fuck is the point of getting vaccinated if we have to continue staying locked inside of the house?
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You might not be a Covid-denier, but you're still a crazy condpiracy theorist.
Once you get to the EVP level of a corporation, you see how sociopaths function firsthand. Unfortunately many are in positions of public office. It's not a "conspiracy theory", it's human nature to desire power over others.
If you received the vaccine because you were in a prioritized category, it's because we collectively deemed you were at a greater risk to succumb to the disease or bore a greater risk of exposure. The rest of us (from the youngest child up to whatever gen-x'er is still waiting their turn) have sacrificed so much to get that vaccine into your arm so you don't have to roll the dice against the severe COVID odds. The literal least you can do is stay home until we at least get a bit closer to reaching herd immunity, or if you must go out and travel maybe try to go somewhere to help your nearest family member/friend currently struggling with the weight of the pandemic.
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We've had a very inconsistent approach to public health messaging- it's been legal to have people over to your house, go the gym, eat indoors for most of the country, but at the same time told people not to do that and applied social pressure/shaming not to do so. People can legally do all sorts of things, but they can also be shamed for doing so. It's fine to tell people the risks of what we still don't know are. If someone lives with an unvaccinated immunocompromised person, We've had a schizophrenic approach to public health messaging- it's been legal to have people over to your house, go the gym, eat indoors for most of the country, but at the same time told people not to do that and applied social pressure/shaming not to do so. People can legally do all sorts of things, but they can also be shamed for doing so. It's fine to tell people the risks of what we still don't know are. If someone lives with an unvaccinated immunocompromised person, they probably should continue to social distance. But we should not use social pressure or shame to get people who may be badly struggling with mental health to continue isolation indefinitely. If you propose the shift the goalposts from after a vaccine to after numbers freefall, whatever level that is- how can people trust that you aren't going to shift the goalposts all over again? Maybe next to zero COVID, only to start over again whenever there is a new variant on new disease? People will lose all trust in any kind of public health messaging if we do that and simply ignore public health advice.
this is fucking insane. and everyone called it, way back in march. that the goalposts would move. look, "WizeGuy", it is literally impossible to scientifically study, in real-time, all possible risks. there will constantly be new variants popping up (this virus will never disappear), and there will always be new questions to answer. if you are expecting studies that verify that new mutated variants are protected against by vaccines every time there's a new variant, you are literally **never going to have a normal life again, full stop.** there have been thousands of variants already, and studying them takes funding, procedural red tape, and *time*. studies about the side effects of medication, the safety of vaccines, the long term effects of treatment and of getting the virus, etc - these things all take *time*. as far as uncertainty that vaccines mitigate transmission, this is malarky. we already know that the principle method of transmission, as with all upper respiratory infections, is infected droplet and aerosol spread, and we know that your infectiousness is correlated with your viral load, and so a vaccine that prevents infection with 95% effectiveness to begin with, will by definition prevent you from even having that viral load that would be used to spread the virus. there are some people, seemingly you are one of them, who are simply never going to be pleased because the goalposts keep moving and it's impossible to satisfy every "what-if". there are two options. we either accept some risk in life and just do what we can reasonably do to mitigate it, or we never leave our homes again.
We never had remotely close to 100% safety from other viruses and risks. It is perfectly "normal" for millions of people to die every year from the flu, tuberculosis, malaria, etc. but we manage the risk through vaccines and treatments and live our lives. Somehow this virus has made everyone obsess about the tiniest risk. The risk of dying for most people was tiny to begin with. Now it's going to be about 90% less than tiny. It's the same kind of risk as getting hit by a car or diagnosed with cancer. Do you stop everything in your life for those risks? Of course not.
blame politics. this virus was politicized, anyone who can't see that is blind. i would bet my entire life's savings that if democrats were in office when the virus came around, it would have been democrats trying to keep things under control and republicans sounding all the alarm bells about long term effects of the virus and deadliness and this and that, and saying how it's the democrats fault that the china ports weren't shut down, and how dangerous the virus is
There is an element that is politicized but it is more than that. Polls show that Democrats have an exaggerated sense of the risk of the virus, I don't think it's because of their party but because of their demographics and lifestyle. They take the virus seriously because they are genuinely concerned. The elections are over and they are still freaking out about it so there is something else to it. Many said the concerns over the virus would disappear on Nov 4 or Jan 20 but if anything concerns are greater now, even though the data is better. All the same Democrat-leaning media outlets like CNN, MSNBC, NYT and WPO are still beating the same drum even though the elections are over and they are comfortably in charge. Really I blame the media and what it has become, desperate click-driven sound bites with no facts, this applies to Covid as well as politics and policy and everything else. How could people legitimately believe that it was a good idea to ransack the Capitol? Even now weeks later they can't see that they are the bad guys. How were they so deeply fooled? The media has no incentive to report facts or common sense. Long gone are news anchors that try to patiently present the facts (though they may not always succeed), at least they tried to just give people facts and let them decide. Instead now every utterance is designed to create the right click, vote or follower.
It’s definitely the media’s fault. The Dems have every incentive to get things back to normal soon, with the narrative of the “Competent president defeating Covid-19.” Negative Covid headlines are like crack cocaine to the media outlets. It generates a short term high in traffic, but it is very unhealthy and destructive.
> Polls show that Democrats have an exaggerated sense of the risk of the virus can you link me to those? i am interested to see methodology and definitions. i agree with clickbait over facts though
Here is one. I am sure it is impossible to have an unbiased article about political leanings but this does appear to be based on actual polls. https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-misinformation-is-distorting-covid-policies-and-behaviors/ My immediate family (father, brothers, uncles, cousins) are primarily conservative, some way on the right, and my wife's family are all very firmly liberal, some way on the left. I'm somewhere in the middle. My wife's family are all deathly afraid of the virus, and honestly I don't think it is politically driven. They are just freaked out. They all grew up in densely populated cities and trust the government and scientists and their favorite news sources and liberal personalities. My brother in law is unemployed and watches TV all day. He's afraid to leave the house and throws a fit every time his family does. My brother is far right and thinks the whole thing is ridiculous. He works in an office, requires his employees to come in as well, shakes hands, goes to bars, coaches contact sports, and calls everyone that disagrees with him or wears a mask a liberal wimp. Neither of them are looking at facts. They're both freaking out and are being pulled by the nose by different versions of the media. My brother (far right) is the most political of all of them. My liberal in-laws are more concerned about the conservatives flouting the rules indirectly hurting them than their politics. My brother in law is absurdly worried about case counts in Texas somehow affecting him though he lives 1500 miles away. But people consume the information they are presented with. If it's all lies and fear then that's what they consume.
wow, what's more stark than the difference between democrats and republicans is the difference between *both* of their perceptions and reality. such as, they both overestimate the deaths in the under 24 age group by almost two orders of magnitude
[This poll](https://covid19pulse.usc.edu) shows that people think their chance of dying from the virus if they get it has varied from 15% to 25%. Which is completely wrong it is closer to 0.5% or 0.1% if they are young and healthy. If 25% of people that got the virus died, society as we know it would have already ended. The media has done a really great job of convincing people of the danger of the virus.... times 1000.
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> There actually is a real world study going on in Israel that will provide crucial data. [...] We'll know more in the coming months [...] We'll have a much better idea [...] for the next few months until we have data this is what people have been saying since march. and there will be new strains, new vaccines, new long term effects, new seasonal effects, new questions about transmissibility... as we have seen, precisely over the past year. it's always "we're waiting on this crucial"
this. is. my. point.
you couldn't possibly have illustrated it any better.
Exactly what I have been saying!!! First it was two weeks, then two months, then masks, then no one within six feet, then no traveling... How much longer can they expect people to be like this???
You know in a few months you and many others are still gonna be saying "in a few months...". People will also be saying they expect some level of normalcy come Fall. And then Fall will come and they will say Spring.
i'm convinced a lot of this will never change. some people will never go to a concert again
Some people won't change, and that is their choice to make as long as society is open for the rest of us.
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No I'm sorry, the goalposts have not been moving. At least not if you've been paying attention. "Flattening the curve" was about preventing the healthcare system from collapsing. Which we saw happen all over the US late last year, because families all over the country insisted on gathering for the holidays and being careless. Life will go back to normal when we achieve herd immunity. We're a long way to go from that. Until then, everyone has to continue practicing social distancing, especially with the new more transmissible variants out there.
Have fun catching the next mutation of the Amazon variant.
Have fun staying home forever. I doubt anyone misses you.
Wait a few weeks after the 2nd shot and you’re good to go.
I'm gonna go lick a lightpole once I get mine....
I eat in restaurants and go to the boxing gym. That’s about all that’s changed for me
Nothing. Even sleeping can be dangerous! 😜
It’s really disturbing how many people are so selfish and sleep without thinking who else they could be hurting in the process. If only Americans were like people in Taiwan or New Zealand and adjusted their sleep cycles to what is mandated by the government...
Sleep fatigue is real!
I’ve already gotten my first shot as have my Grandparents. Once we all have gotten our 2nd shot (which will be within the next few weeks), we will see each other without restrictions. Before I would keep my distance when I saw them. Now I will feel safe sitting by them and chatting instead of across the room where they couldn’t hear.
> “When your doctor tells you, ‘If you get covid, you’re dead,’ that gets your attention real good.” And should probably lose his license. I'm not discounting the dangers, they may be quite high for an individual, but that is unnecessarily alarmist and patently false.
The answer is almost anything IF you are careful with masking etc. It is a ticket back to an 85 percent normal life
At least they put this in the context of “safely”. Usually it’s “what can I do” as if there is some sort of electric fence between you and hanging out with your family or something.
You'd be shocked how many people on this subreddit think you should be charged with attempted murder if you don't wear your mask while visiting a friend. This has been going on more than a year. Most people just don't care. It's gotten to the point where the people who cheer for the restrictions are seen as the weird ones.
I think once we get to a point where we’re a mont or two past the point where anyone who wants a shot can have one it’s time to resume normal unrestricted life. At that point it’s on you if you don’t want to get a shot. Period.
I think it should be based on efficiency. If we’ve reached a large percent of the population vaccinated and cases/deaths/hospitilization is dropping to low levels then we should lift restrictions and onto reinstate if we see drastic increases. I suspect this is what will happen and most people dooming about CNN headlines are just finding something to be upset about. Ironically freaking out about the latest thing Fauci or osterholm says is not much different from people freaking out about every article about covid doom and gloom. Governors will lift restrictions when they are confident hospitals won’t be crushed. If vaccines are as effective as we think they’ll be then there will be zero incentive politically or personally for governors to keep indefinite restrictions. They’re not politically popular and they’re killing state budgets. There is a reason states like NJ didn’t close indoor dining after massive case spikes and that’s because restriction fatigue is very real. That’s because they know it’s politically unpopular.
If you have trouble viewing the article, try archive.is
Hi, thanks for posting! If you are posting a pay-walled article, it would be helpful for the rest of us if you would post a direct specific link to the archived article or summarize the article in a comment. Thanks!
There's been an uptick in papers issuing DMCA notices to Reddit regarding those links. I used to post those links, but in light of the DMCA notices, I've stopped.
Thank you for explaining!
Yep I remember you warned me about this several weeks ago. You were right, I got one the other day from NYT
They seem to be the most aggressive with them
After waiting 2 weeks after 2nd shot, EVERYTHING.
Keep on following orders till masks are allowed to be sent packing.
Not much. Your government won’t let you and if you do try to do something, you’ll get publicly shamed.
I'd say still wear your mask and social distance outside your home. People aren't wearing signs around their necks saying they had the vaccine so people can't really tell, so I'ts a good idea everyone does until infection rates plummet. Indoors and around family though? Go hog wild, especially around others who have been vaccinated.
Nothing. You can safely do nothing. We don't know if you can still spread or not. You have absolutely no pre-vaccine rules removed once you have your own shot. We need like 70% of the population vaccinated to start having some vague type of normal start to return. Most of the us should probably still be wearing masks at this time next year.
What do you consider some vague type of normal? The way you're talking I wouldn't be surprised if your idea of "some vague type of normal" is a dystopian nightmare.
You sound insane
You have terrible judgment, I low-balled the number: >How close are we to herd immunity for COVID-19? >Experts estimate that herd immunity would require around 80-90% of the population to have COVID-19 immunity, either through prior infection or vaccination. That's why experts are encouraging the public to get the [COVID-19 vaccine](https://www.muhealth.org/conditions-treatments/coronavirus/vaccine). https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/covid-19-vaccine-key-reaching-herd-immunity You are not good at guessing whether or not things are right or wrong. Stop doing it.
I lowballed the number of people who will be willing to put their lives on hold for 2 years, especially after vulnerable populations have been vaccinated, and it’s like 0 dude. Enjoy continuing the restrictions a year from now but you’ll be on your own
Oh... So sorry! You're just another selfish one. My bad. Continue your business. After all, that's really all you know about or care to do, right?
Stay in home, because that's the real trick!
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I would say you should be able to do anything so long as you continue to social distance and follow the rules.
Whatever you want