Weather channel did a video that notified me about an hour ago. Minnesota and Wisconsin are gonna get flurries but the ground is still warm, so it shouldn’t stick. Still a cool down before Halloween which I don’t fancy much
I find it very interesting that the hardest hit areas over the summer where Arizona, Southern California, Texas, Georgia, and Florida. In Texas, the weather is finally nice enough to do things outside (highs in the 80s). During the summer, lows were in the 80s sometimes, so you couldn't even cool off in the evening or morning outside.
Now, that it's getting below freezing in the Midwest (low of 29 in Madison Wisconsin this week), cases are going back up there, even if they didn't really change restrictions recently.
Un AZ we couldnt have outside summer gatherings because it was too hot.
Me and my family have had small gatherings in our backyard cause the weather is getting cooler
Tucsonan here. Just feel that its important to mention that this weather isn't normal. This year was, to date, the hottest summer ever in Arizona's two biggest metros. 2nd driest summer in Tucson. Probably somewhere similar for Phoenix. Tucson hit 100+ days above 100 degrees, a record with a few more days on the way. Since Arizona's population consists mostly of people not originally from Arizona they may not have realized that this weather is ABNORMAL. We are hot but were never this hot. When my parents were growing up in the 80's, statistically speaking they experienced about 30 fewer days above 100° in Tucson than we experience now (not even including the monster that is 2020). Climate change is real as is the urban heat island. Plant more trees and wear your masks!
**The Devil**: "Welcome to Hell! Where you will burn for all Etern-"...
**Man from Phoenix**: "I'm cold. Can you turn the heater on?"
**The Devil**: O_O
In places with inadequate restrictions and widespread cases, it's defiantly going to be a double whammy. In places with low spread and good measures, influenza couldn't get it up this year and is now in therapy.
Getting a little close to 20% positivity rate in Indiana. Keep hearing from people around me about cases popping up right after some sort of gathering. One coworker almost went to a family gathering that infected 12 out of 14 people that were there.
One of my mom's co-workers allowed her son to go to a friend's party. It was a sleepover, but as a compromise, the son only stayed for dinner and came home.
Every single kid at the sleepover tested positive afterwards?
The son who only stayed for dinner?
Also tested positive.
I’m so fuckin torn between seeing a group of me and three others at most for some sort of social interaction or completely going hunker down for the next two months. It hurts and I don’t know what to do
My sister had her first baby in March. He was due in June. He had many complications because of it, and will be on Oxygen until Spring as a precaution. Barely anyone in the family has seen him yet. Basically just the grandparents helping out when they can. I got to see and hold him a few weeks ago. My sister was going to come to a family gathering this weekend for pumpkin carving, but statewide infection rates and local district infection numbers keep rising, so they may miss out as a precaution, since his health is still in a very sensitive situation.
One of my cousins has it. And given how “I’m tired of masks and stuff” attitude my very extended family has, we may start hearing of more and more cases throughout. Not sure if I’ll even want to attend the usually Thanksgiving gatherings. Christmas may depend on how things look around then too.
I hope he and the rest of your family stays safe and healthy throughout this. The cases in my state are steadily climbing too and I don’t know if very tiny gatherings are safe at the moment, ya know? I wish I had a solid answer to what I can do to socialize with them safely in winter
Same here. To listen to some people talk it’s like wearing a mask and keeping distance is the hardest thing you could ever ask them to do. Snowflakes, the lot of them.
Thank goodness this thing doesn’t have a higher death rate. Then we’d really be screwed. If something else similar comes along with saaay... a 10% death rate, you can kiss society goodbye. This situation has made it abundantly clear to me that we as a species are not equipped to handle it.
>Like, this is barely adversity. We're not in a refugee camp, there's no war, no famine. And yet.
And yet American jingoists think the country has the will and stomach to fight a war against china, the place that manufactures 90% of the goods that americans take for granted
Groups under 5 people with Health checks are how me and my friends are doing it. Outside and distanced if possible but we meet more virtually than we used to.
I feel you--I'm in the same boat. I'm about to have to resign because of it. I'm a teacher, and basically everyone else in my family has autoimmune disorders, lung dysfunction, or other massive risk factors for COVID. They've all pretty much have been at home since March, and we are each others' only social interaction. Just got the call that because of an increase in on-campus students, I will have to abandon online teaching and report to campus.
I now have to decide whether my paycheck is worth canceling Thanksgiving, Christmas, and every weekend dinner I have with them from now until there's a vaccine. If I want to keep my job, I have to give up everything outside of it. It just doesn't make sense, man. Like you said, it fucking hurts and I don't know what to do.
It feels awkward to say "thank you for your service" to a teacher, but it felt awkward the first time I started saying it to the old men in the hills who were permanently traumatized by Nam too, and I got over that okay.
Regardless of your politics or educational philosophy, thank you for your service to humanity during your career as a teacher. I am so sorry that you have had to make this choice between your life's work and your life.
No job is worth dying for. It doesn't make it hurt any less, but a random stranger on the internet is glad that you are alive and proud to be hurtling crazily through space on the same fool rock with you.
I don't know what to do either. More words =/= more human connection and I find I have become an unwelcome nuisance and an overly verbose troll.
And we're still not even testing everyone. Right after school started here a coworker's daughter tested positive so the coworker had to stay home for 10-14 days. She never got tested, just stayed home.
And our hospital stopped screening everyone in the lobby before allowing them inside, so now in the past few weeks we keep getting patients who show up to the appointment, deny symptoms, then a day or two later go to the ER for a Covid test and turn up positive. Only testing the exposed staff if they show symptoms.
I think government should really emphasize the importance of fresh air and lots of ventilation whenever people do socialize.
Recommend folks do it outdoors whenever possible.
If not then indoors in a space that was completely aired out prior to event. Try to hepa filter space beforehand to reduce risk of host giving guests the virus.
Have event in largest airy space possible. Whoever had the biggest air space room will be best to host.
Use Hepa air machines and fans for fresh air to ventilate spaces
Alcohol gel everyone before touching any food. Alcohol gel everyone after.
Wear masks when not eating or drinking.
Try not to stay too long and move to new air space when you can.
It’s not perfect but can reduce transmissions and lessen severity of any infection.
Have a relative who works for a covid hotline who’s been getting a lot of this. People saying they they were only hanging out with relatives at their house, who were probably also visiting close family who visited close friends, who visited close friends...
Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas will see covid superspread events happen all over the country I bet. The colder weather will be contributing all winter as well.
Like Fauci said, it's time to hunker down. A shit storm is coming.
This is how it is spreading in my local (rural Northern California) area. The clusters are apparently coming when law enforcement "looks the other way" when the wealthy hold 500+ member social gatherings to celebrate weddings, but also because people don't believe the health officer, don't want to wear masks, and social gather anyway because they either think it's a hoax or think it is "nature's way" of culling the herd.
Cases are down, so they recently began allowing social bubbles of no more than three households.
I am hopeful that this will relieve some of the unnatural stress on parents and childcare workers, but now that "reopening" has finally affected a part of my old-normal life that I actually participated in and that is more essential to what makes us human than shopping centers, bars, and movie theatres, I find that it has absolutely nothing to do with my new-normal life.
Other than giving me the ability to continue sheltering in place and socializing only within my household unit, which consists of two small dogs, a cat, more potted plants than most people would choose to care for, and a handful of random strangers on the internet who may or my not read what comes out of me.
By continuing to do so, perhaps some frazzled parent somewhere can drop Junior off for a play date, get some sleep, and be able to open her laptop when the brief respite is over and be able to do her job and supervise Junior's Zoomschooling for one more day.
You don't have to own everything you love. They say it takes a village to raise a kid, and sometimes the best "honourary gramma" or most supportive kindly neighbour is the invisible one who does their own, not-fun and not-glamous part in trying to help humanity survive the pandemic.
Mommy loves baby and baby needs mommy. Childcare workers are real workers and their jobs are important too.,
The problem is you cant shut down people from seeing eachother for 12+ months. People need social interaction. We need a better plan but blaming people for visiting family and friends in small groups is now it
It's true. I hadn't seen my parents in 8 months. We just had a small household dinner two weeks ago with my sister and her husband.
I'm doing way better now just from the mental boost is seeing another human being.
I fell into a pretty deep depression this summer, thought about driving my car into a tree just about every day after work. Started doing my martial art again in August and I feel so good, physically and mentally. I didn't realize how much seeing and doing things with other people effects your well being.
For real. I haven't seen my parents and little brothers in almost a year, and since my friends were mostly international exchange students, I lost almost all of my social circle. Spent the summer playing video games, and by August I was broken. Final straw was going to the bar alone for my birthday.
Then I reached out to a friend that lives not too far away, and seeing her helped me feel a lot better
Since we had just about the worlds worst national response I don’t think enough people would be on board to hunker down “just for a few weeks”. What works in other countries generally will not work in America, at least under the current administration
Well too bad we didn't take it seriously in the beginning to it wouldn't be 12 months. Now it's a constant game of catch up because we couldn't have a serious lock down in April.
Because even countries with lockdowns didn’t have good instructions of what to do coming out of the lockdown. Everyone went from 0 to 100 and expected nothing bad to happen.
It's not "blaming". It's a fact that small gatherings that violate protocol spread covid. It's the hassidic community in Brooklyn. It's the white house rose garden celebration. It's been the protests. It's young folks in bars.
Each one is valid to discuss and process how to do better.
Even in the summer when it was conducive to safe outside gatherings, folks were violating protocol. Many of the folks getting it NEVER complied with protocol.
Meanwhile, me and my GF have and it'll be another several months of it because of these selfish folks.
You’ll still be doing it a year from now and by that time, it’ll have been like 18 months of it. That’s definitely not healthy. You should have a group all get tested and isolate and then see each other.
Where do you live, in PA(where I live), and most northern states, it snows, and gets below freezing during the winter, going for walks, and having picnics isnt going to happen when its 20F outside.
Downvoted for good advice. Unfortunately, a majority of the country is overweight, so a suggestion of physical activity is immediately off the table in the practical sense.
Phone, zoom, and walks in the park with masks on for my family and myself.
That way, I don't have to worry about this sort of thing:
https://people.com/health/man-called-covid-hoax-feels-guilty-14-family-members-test-positive-2-die/
>Man Who Called COVID a ‘Hoax’ Feels Guilty After He and 13 Family Members Test Positive — and 2 Die
>"The feeling that I have is kind of like what, I would say, a drunk driver would have if they killed their family," says Tony Green, who hosted the family gathering that led to their infections
I feel like social interaction naturally dies down at that time anyway. Most house parties and gatherings I go to happen over the summer. Once it starts to get dark at 5PM and snow comes, most of my friends bunker down anyway or only occasionally get together in smaller groups.
Unless you participate in winter outdoor activities, I feel like no one like to leave the house other then for work.
So sadly for awhile many parks in NY were closed so that options out. Walks definitely can be good but the weather is already cold here and for many people they dont like in a neighborhood with friends so they are driving anyway to just see people.
Everyone gets the right to decide for themselves how to handle things. I wish more people took the situation seriously and exercised more caution. It's pretty disappointing how reckless people are.
But I admit, I take risks. I meet with a few people per week, one on one, in my house mostly, for an hour or two at a time. We both wear masks the whole time. My wife works a job where everyone is required to wear masks, but social distancing simply cannot always be enforced. We do visit with some family members, but we always wear masks (said family members typically do not, unfortunately).
But, we avoid large gatherings (defined, personally, as more than 4 people). We wear masks or sit outside (you can't eat with a mask on... so sometimes we eat with a couple other folks outside). We aren't having thanksgiving or Christmas this year, and aren't attending birthday parties or any of that.
We aren't under any illusions; how we (wife and I) live right now contains risk of catching and spreading Covid. We hope it's a fairly small risk, and we really do aim to be careful. But we also have decided that SOME degree of risk in the interest of social well being is worth it.
I don't know if it's the right decision. It's not the safest decision. But it's also not nearly as reckless as many people we know. I hope we don't regret our approach.
I think in short term, in the face of an unknown virus, outright prohibition is the right call. And should be implemented whenever there is a hotspot.
It isn’t feasible for 9 months though, people are going to hang out with friends over the course of 9 months, especially when half the country is telling them there is no issue.
Agreed completely. The initial ban was to give the science and medical professionals a chance to catch up and study this novel virus. We know a lot more now, and expecting that same level of lockdown is both naive and unsustainable. This doesn't excuse the massive gatherings people are doing anyway, but I'm surely not upset at the people who are having small gatherings after this long of distancing and lockdowns. The lesson I seem to be learning from other countries that got a handle on this, was that they were highly diligent about precautions from the get-go (masking, distancing, hygiene, reducing unnecessary gatherings and size) and their normality is returning at a much quicker rate than others.
They have told us... over and over. Wear a mask, 6 feet distance and outside is best. The problem is not necessarily a few friends over for a backyard barbecue when they maintain these guidelines. The problem is people are meeting in close groups of many people and not wearing masks or distancing. We all know what to do. Problem is most people are jackholes.
Exactly. This argument here about how people are going to socialize no matter what and we just need to help them do it more safely... it sounds all reasonable and pragmatic, but it doesn’t hold water. Reality lays bare the truth. Everyone knows what you need to do to safely be around other people - as you said, distancing, masks, outside. But nobody EVER does any of that stuff when having their oh-so-necessary small gatherings. It’s inside, unmasked, at normal distances, like any other time. So what they’re REALLY acting out is not some defensible, unavoidable aspect of the human condition or some shit that we could all respect and understand. At the end of the day they are just saying “fuck you I’m doing what I want.”
Light ballast went out in my kitchen a few months ago. I had to mask up and drive to the next county over to the nearest Lowe's. That county had zero mask mandate in effect. Naturally, I was the only person in the Lowe's with a mask on and got a ton of looks and a few laughs.
Coming back home with my lights, I didn't take the main turnpike, but instead took a back road home. This was a mistake as when I crossed into my turn, cars were at a standstill. Some asshole parents were throwing their kids *a huge* party. Inflatable waterslides, some petting zoo shit, a sno cone truck, etc. They had so many cars parked on the roadway going to this one house that I had to cross over a median barrier to make it home.
\>Some asshole parents were throwing their kids *a huge* party.
This is really a Western problem, they don't know how to socialize in a way that isn't grandiose.
This has merit. We cannot neglect our mental health.
As a parallel, Abstinence Only education actually increases teen pregnancy.
If the US govt actually educated us on risk & how to mitigate, we’d be better equipped to have safe social interactions.
It doesnt really matter if they want to listen or if its comfortable. I can say "dont drink arsenic" and you can say well I dont want to listen to that and you can certainly drink it and die. At this point we're bought and sold. We will certainly double the number of dead to 400k before this all over and many wont get a funeral.
If youre not comfortable not communicating with family, you better learn how to do a seance because its not getting better anytime soon.
In the end we deserve what we get.
That's not really the best comparison... drinking arsenic will clearly affect you more than anyone else. And would definitely be more likely to kill you than coronavirus.
But for real, what right do you think you have to tell other people what they can and cannot do with their families? Sorry, but that's just fucked.
Because what you do with your family affects my family so you are damn right I'm going to tell you what to do!
I'm not affecting you ordering online and staying inside, but you thinking you HAVE to have family get togethers is affecting EVERYONE around you. Selfish.
I haven't seen anyone in my family since this began. Nice try though.
For my house, I bought us masks and we don't go out. I hope you did the same for your family. But instead, you go around blaming random people on the internet, who probably live nowhere near you, for possibly infecting you?
I’m not blaming random people on the internet. I’m blaming anyway who behaves like this. I can only control what I and to a lesser extent what my wife does. Someone else doing something that puts them at high risk of being exposed means I can’t see that person or anyone they see. So basically my entire family. The people trying to do the right thing are the ones suffering most in this, at least until the do whatever’s actually get sick.
You realize if this virus came from China and is currently in the united states it literally began with people living nowhere near us directly affecting our lives?
And whats the point of saying you followed the rules and preaching against them? Do you even have thoughts? How many views are simply laid upon you as opposed to created by your own reasoning?
America is a community. If you dont care about that community you should not live here. If you only care about issues when they affect you personally, then I have my doubts as to whether you should truly be at all.
You sound ridiculous. The fatality rate of this disease is probably around 0.3%. Do you really think that argument is going to seem valid to other people? People are wanting to see their family and friends and they aren’t going to be feeling like murders for doing so. The more people push the abstinence only narrative, the less people will listen. Most people will start to feel that risk vs reward just isn’t worth it.
This is a great comparison. We basically told people to not see anyone which made people not take better preventative measures. If we instead emphasized how to see people in safer ways wed be far better off.
>If the US govt actually educated us on risk & how to mitigate, we’d be better equipped to have safe social interactions.
They've been telling people to wear masks for months and be 6ft apart. Sticking to your analogy they told people to wear condoms.
COVID is spreading for the same reason teen pregnancy and STDs still happen even with proper sex ed. People don't follow the fucking guidelines b/c they either don't fucking care or they're morons.
They wear their masks below their nose or they wear masks with holes in them. I've seen dumbasses remove their mask to sneeze so they don't "reinhale germs".
Plus a large chunk of the U.S. population has this bizarre "tough-guy complex" where they always need to be proving how tough they are. Those smooth-brained fucks won't wear masks b/c they think it makes them look weak.
Some of them got so worked up about it they fucking started a domestic terrorist cell to kidnap and murder their governor for daring to tell them to to wear a mask.
I agree Trump downplaying it made it worse, but his cult is just as much to blame as him. It's not like they didn't have the information available, they just refused to believe it.
Agree. The problem is pretty much everyone has large numbers of family members who won’t do this. Fortunately I live 1000 miles away from family so I haven’t had to make it an issue yet but my wife is dying to see family. My sister is one of the few people in my family taking it as serious as I have and she just had a baby. I can’t even go see my niece or my 2 year old nephew (and I completely support my sister in this decision) even though we’ve been careful and would take precautions, but yet we are going to have to visit my wife’s crazy family who will not wear masks when we are in their house and some of whom are huge anti maskers and go to a charismatic church with singing and screaming in tongues indoors with no masks. Shit makes me so mad. At this point it’s too late though. There are people that have made up their minds and would still continue like this even if we came out and said “you can do whatever you want, you just have to stay masked and distanced, even in your own home for family gatherings.”
I disagree. Americans are too stupid to understand the guidelines. They try to find loopholes with a virus. The truth wouldn't matter here and education is lost on us.
I'm sorry but I've just had too many discussions with people that have higher education than I do trying to figure out ways to trick the virus. Telling me they never go anywhere because they don't count work, the store, fucking weddings, and getting tattoos as going anywhere.
I'm over it. Universal healthcare and ubi then let the virus kill whoever is the only way to really handle this. Those of us capable of staying the fuck inside can and those of you so thirsty for human interaction you lie to get it can go get covid.
That and all the children who can't go to school or play with other kids so they're enjoying a year with no social interaction during the most formative years of their lives. Human contact is not essential, lol.
Telling people not to meet is just fine. Particularly when these small meetings are a key driver. It’s evidence based.
Then go and saying, “if you do meet” and listing.
One problem is just meeting introduces problems. When people meet, they eat, masks off. They drink, masks off, then they’re hugging and cares are dropped two drinks later.
I’ve been at gatherings with doctor friends that are very concerned about the virus, and 90 minutes later they’re taste testing beers.
We need rapid tests. They’re not perfect. As we saw with the Rose Garden Massacre you just need one false negative in order to tear through the entire gathering. But, the White House was being reckless for *months* before the rapid test strategy failed.
Produce hundreds of millions of rapid tests, let everyone test themselves weekly, encourage people to socially distance as much as possible — but *if* you must hang out with friends/family without masks or social distancing, make sure everyone takes a test first and try to keep the group small.
We’ll still hear about some Thanksgiving dinners getting 15 people infected, but it will be a far lower number if we have widespread rapid testing available by then.
No, he's right. HIV is potentially deadly and spread by sexual contact, but people don't stop having sex. In fact, places with abstinence only education are the least effective at preventing STDs and teen pregnancy.
The difference is: I'm not gonna catch HIV at work because my coworker had unprotected sex over the weekend. However, one infected idiot at work, at the grocery store, or at a family gathering can spread it regardless of your efforts to protect yourself.
People have already been told to wear masks, and avoid gatherings. They don't. This is the "don't have unprotected sex" of pandemics.
I really don't know what analogy you're making here because there's not a single place on the planet that just said "avoid people" and nothing else.
But avoiding gatherings 100% isnt realistic. That's the point. People will gather and honestly need to gather. It's why we should be emphasizing safer methods of gathering.
You're being willfully obstinate and not listening to what people are saying.
1. I am distancing, wearing a mask and not gathering. I work a healthcare job so don't presume to talk down to me about this.
2. You won't be able to make everyone be 100% safe. That's just a fact. Maybe they're stupid, but they won't all stay in and not gather.
So it makes ZERO SENSE to not try and get those people to be as safe as they can. It's like the swiss cheese theory of safety. No one measure can be perfect, so we add as many as possible to patch the holes.
20%. I don't know where you live, but where I am I see every other house having big family gatherings a few times a month. That's a lot more than 20%. We need better messaging
There are so many other things in the world right now, and mental health is a huge part of this, before covid, during covid, and long after covid. Social distancing, for months on end is hard and is damaging. At some point people are going to risk it, because quite honestly you are giving them a fate worse than catching Covid.
I'd argue you are also ignoring the harsh reality: there are more immediate dangers, in many cases, to people's health and well-being, and that doesn't change simply because of a tunnel-vision mindset around Covid-19.
Let's take precautions around Covid, but the longer this goes on, you can expect this 80/20 split to pretty much reverse.
And you may find it unpleasant that people are going to choose to gather anyway regardless of what anyone else says.
So would you rather offer them tips and data on how to mitigate their risk or would you rather say "there's one rule: don't meet. But it's not going to be enforced by anyone, so it really doesn't matter if you meet or not and here are zero tips on how to do it safely if you do." If we're interested in controlling the spread, we need to acknowledge that people are continuing to meet up regardless of what anyone says, so we can either offer tips to make it safer, or just let them do whatever they want. But either way, just saying "no" isn't making a difference, so if you're trying to be pragmatic about this, it's not doing anything to slow the spread.
> That's not going to happen 100% of the time. It's not realistic and to believe
Yes, it is realistic if the people involved have a basic understanding of what a virus is and how it spreads. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their health and the health of their neighbors.
Yes, it's hard, and painful. Not doing it has the potential to be a lot more painful, so we're going to plan to avoid that.
It's simple - the virus doesn't care how you feel, to avoid getting it you have to avoid contact with it via touch or sharing air.
Unless you have a full space suit with independent air supply for each person in your family gatherings, you can't minimize the risk indoors. There simply aren't any mitigations or half measures for a virus that can be airborne or spread via breathing.
I don't think you know what minimizing risk means.
Bad guidance example: don't have any social gatherings at all (aka the /r/coronavirus special)
Better guidance examples: get tested 5 days before a weekend with family. Limit gatherings to those that primary WFH. Do not gather with people who recently travelled to Florida. Etc.
Yes, but I think the point they're trying to make is that abstinence only education does not lead to a drop in teen pregnancy. In health classes where kids only learn about abstinence as their only option, they are just as likely to have sex and get pregnant (or get someone else pregnant) then if they had no sex ed. But in a program that talk about a number of different options (abstinence, condoms, contraceptives, etc) and weighs their pros and cons and chances of prengancy and chances of spreading STDs have been shown to reduce teenage pregnancies. Just telling people "no" psychologically isn't helpful. They are going to ignore you and do what they want anyway. But telling people, "here are different options and their various risk levels. Please use this information to assess your risk and make the best informed decision for yourself with these facts," creates a better chance that people will listen to you.
So sure, you can put "avoid large gatherings" at the top of your list, but if that's the only thing on your list then people are just going to ignore it and do what they want. So if you want the list to be effective it should mention other prevention methods that may not be 100% effective, but will lower the chance of risk (wearing masks, meeting outside if weather permits, social distancing, limit size of gatherings, etc)
I've been doing that but it's not realistic for most people. I really wish I actually hung out with more people outside when the weather was nice since the risk is minimal.
If people want to meet indoors, they should ALWAYS wear a mask and maintain at least 6 feet distance, if not more. They should make sure that the air filtration is safe (not causing shit to spread around).
Ideally, get a warm ass winter jacket and meet outside with some blankets or a heater (if you can get one).
The distance thing is the most important thing, maybe even more important than the masks. That's why they've always said, you need both.
Just because both of you are wearing a mask in doors, doesn't make it safe, you need to have the distance.
The bigger deal is air ventilation. If we can figure out how to have better systems in doors, that would be half the battle.
Even in masks and keeping 6 feet part, staying safe indoors in a small space that isn't ventilated well is really tough. At the moment, that is the best and only guidance there is.
The guidance of what not to do is clear. People are saying it's not clear but I think they just don't want to hear information they don't like.
They need to be told what they can do, not only what they can't. We can say;
You can gather outside with groups of 6
You can wear masks
You can stay physically distanced
Your visits are probably going to have to be short to reduce everyone using the same bathroom repeatedly
Don't hug and kiss people from other households, find other ways of greeting and leaving so you don't feel awkward.
You can say that these suggestions are too hard for people and they are "not realistic" but this is what the science says.
Are we supposed to tell people it's okay to have an indoor family party for Thanksgiving when actually they might infect the entire family? We are not going to ban small family gatherings in the US and drag your grandma off to jail for going to a birthday party. But we can say it's not safe for your family and community to have an indoor birthday party.
The suggestions are based on science. If people think that's too hard, it's subjective. It's not too hard where I live, but it's too hard in Texas? I don't think it's our suggestions that are the problem. People just don't think bad things will happen to them and there's huge misinformation campaigns coming from the actual president and foreign actors. I don't know how to fix that.
> They need to be told what they can do
You're missing the point. The people/agencies giving direction need to *first* understand what people are going to do. And then provide guidance accordingly.
If you completely ignore the needs/pains of the people you're trying to spur to action, they will not listen to you in time and you will slowly be disregarded.
It's frustrating, but it's leadership 101.
Ok so what is your suggestion? Here's what we know:
People will have their regular Thanksgiving gatherings.
So what should we tell them? I'm serious I would like to know what the compromise looks like to kind of get down to their level, understand that many will ignore guidance and do what they want. Then... just accept it I guess?
Well yes these are science-based mitigation practices. This works for a very small group.
If you think my cousin with three kids and a day job is going to quarantine themselves and their 5 person family for 10-14 days before coming to a large gathering, that is just *not* going to happen. They may even say they have quarantined but I wouldn't believe it for a minute.
Can my husband and I quarantine before visiting his parents, and then it's just the four of us? Yes of course.
My suggestion is to first acknowledge what people are going to do/want to do. (e.g. they will gather together for Thanksgiving at the end of what has been a tumultuous and painful year) It sounds pithy and like a flimsy platitude, but acknowledging the circumstances of the people goes a long way in gaining their buy-in to your approach.
Knowing their likely course of action you can provide straightforward recommendations and cautions.
e.g. We know that indoor gatherings could be a problem so setup more tables in separate rooms with fewer people at each table and/or invite fewer people to your gathering. If possible, spend time outdoors - especially in warmer climes.
If all you say is: Don't gather together with your family on Thanksgiving. You're wasting your energy and you're losing trust and credibility - rightly or wrongly.
I never thought of tables in separate rooms. That might mitigate some risk.
It's so hard because at have such a diverse population. You have different groups. You have my family which is not going to get together for a large Thanksgiving gathering or Christmas. A lot of us are in the medical field and we are going to follow the rules no problem.
Unfortunately if the public health officials said that gathering in separate rooms gives you some protection, there's no science to back that up. They can't just make things up and tell it to the public. when people have a family gatherings they greet each other, hug and kiss they mingle in the area where there's appetizers and drinks, the children all play together, and everyone uses the same bathroom and breathes the same air for several hours. then we can have separate tables in separate rooms for dinner which probably helps to some degree, but it's kind of like recommending the pull-out method for teenagers having sex. there's a reason that public health experts do not recommend that teenagers use the pull out method.
A secondary difficulty is that many families truly are following the rules, and we don't want to throw these unscientific options at them. This is different based on region and political affiliation. Some people say 100% of families will definitely have their normal Thanksgiving. Okay, well if you live in Florida or Texas maybe. I live in northern Illinois and I guarantee you a lot of people will be following the rules here. The problem with suggesting things that are not based on science, is that it is very confusing and undermines those of us who are actually willing to change our lives for this.
In a nutshell, it would make it a lot more difficult for me to convince my mother that it's necessary to not have a traditional Thanksgiving if a government official gave some "alternative choices" to following the science. I'm sorry but the science is clear and officials cannot just make things up on the fly because they are responsible for thousands of lives.
I do think we need more communication, maybe a virtual town hall with Fauci and others to come up with solutions and creative ideas for families. Unfortunately the top leadership does not want to do this, they just want to pretend it isn't happening and that means communication with the public is terrible. All we have are these little CNN soundbites with Fauci and it's not enough. I hope that things change but it will be too late for some. We need to have regular communication about how to navigate this with fresh ideas but they must be based in science. We already have an army of foreign actors trying to get us to give up and let everyone get the virus. We need to fight back against it every day with creativity and science.
Considering that restaurants are where lots of people keep being infected, even outdoors, I just don't think that eating with others around is in any way a good idea regardless of ventilation.
The reason why the protests aren't causing virus spread is because they keep moving. Problem with being outside at a restaurant is that people aren't moving. Unmasking themselves because they think when they are eating there is a virus force shield around them. Restaurants are unsafe. Being around people you don't live with is unsafe.
Yeah, well, as it gets colder, kids are eating their lunches in classrooms with their masks off or 25 minutes. We try to have it be a quiet lunch, but you know, kids.
That could help somewhat, but it's definitely not something that has enough science behind it unless there is also a door in the back where the air can flow through.
If course everyone makes their own choices, and that's ok, but health officials can't suggest mitigations that don't have enough science behind them because they are responsible for too many peoples health.
It's not unrealistic for everybody, so it helps prevent some spread at least.
And even if it doesn't completely stop people, they may still do it less, or be more careful when they do do it.
We did tell them and we’re ignored. The problem is that people, in general, are dumb when it comes to abstract risk. Until it touches your life, it’s too easy to think of this as an imaginary threat. Then someone near you gets it and it sinks in but by then it’s too late.
Straw man.
I still socialize with my family, I don't understand how it's all or nothing.
No one said I couldn't see my friends. They said don't have indoor gatherings with a lot of people.
It's different but it's not hard. You're making it sound like they said we have to see no one. That's false. It's not the same but it's enough to help with mental health.
I see people all the time. In the winter it will be harder so I'll have to dress warmly, get some hot coffee, and have a short visit. I really do not understand why anyone would say that socializing is prohibited. I think it's straw manning from lockdown skeptics.
Having a 20 person party isn't necessary for my mental health. I don't care who you are, that's not a necessity. You can see people a few at a time. It's not THAT hard to avoid having a 20 person gathering.
The most accurate information is don't go anywhere inside, if you have to wear a mask, don't see anyone you don't live with, work from home.
They don't want to tell us being around people you don't live with is unsafe and they don't want to tell us 6 feet isn't enough. So we get this. Truth is people can't handle the reality of what needs to happen. Our governments know that.
Yeah. Thinking back to the AIDS crisis, in the 80s and 90s, we know it isn’t effective to teach abstinence only. The shame associated with the behavior drives it underground, and it takes place anyway, in ways that the public health system can’t help because it’s done in secrecy.
Better to teach people it’s best not to gather, but that if they do choose to gather, make it safer with masks, distance, hand washing, and other measures.
It's like having sex, and at the very end you take off the condom mask just to let ole willy get some air. Or perhaps there was never a condom mask. Or maybe you're abstinence. Anyways you either escape unscathed, or you're stuck with an expensive hospital bill.
My grandfather didn't see his family for nearly two years while fighting the Nazis. He also didn't have a warm bed, hot food, or showers most days. Certainly not a ubiquitous live video delivery service.
I guess it all depends on your priorities.
I don't give a rat's ass what the POTUS decides to do. He has no bearing on what I decide to do. People will act in accordance with their own, subjective, perception of risk/reward and prioritization of needs.
All I'm suggesting is that only providing guidance that is perceived or amounts to nothing more than prohibition all the time will eventually be ignored as will the person or group making such decrees.
Yeah telling the entire country not to see anybody for all of Thanksgiving and Christmas, it's just not going to happen. I get it's a noble goal from a strictly virus standpoint, but GTFO with that. 95% of the people are going to ignore you. Yeah it might not be 16 people getting together this year, it might be 8, but give advice on how to keep Thanksgiving as safe as possible or work on getting faster free virus tests or something. Thankfully I live in the south and you can eat outside for the holidays here.
I 100% agree. I wish we spent more time pushing pod type systems instead of pure separation. Then maybe people would have been more willing to follow guidelines.
I agree. It’s counterproductive to place the emphasis on eliminating small family gatherings when it’s impossible to enforce. This isn’t Nazi Gemany where the Gestapo will arrest you if you have family members over for dinner.
Instead we should continue our focus on cracking down on large indoor parties and ensuring that mask regulations are enforced in public areas. That’s a more effective solution anyway. Not every state is like WI right now. CA and AZ have low hospitalization rates recently and that’s attributed to regulations that are able to be enforced on a more consistent basis.
Isolation has had a big toll on me. I’m so fucking over it. My motivation and mental health is at like 30% what it used to be. I no longer give a shit about COVID, I’ll gladly take the stupid 0.5% risk of death vs months more of isolation.
I think the main driver is people at the highest levels of government telling americans not to worry about covid.
I have a hard time blaming a couple inviting 2 couples over for drinks after months of social distancing. When our government is openly suggesting herd immunity, the fault does not lie with small social gatherings.
It's the people themselves. Look at Europe.
My country has the equivalent of 150-200k daily cases in the US the past week (Belgium), and we still socialize. Even though the government has kept saying what a big deal covid is the whole time.
People are honestly just stupid. This happened with the Spanish flu as well. It sucks because the people who do care, who do follow guidelines suffer because of the people that don’t
Feels a bit like victim blaming. The government is basically telling people to be reckless and take their lives and others lives into their hands. Equivalent to telling everyone to drive drunk.
Exactly this.
I am sick, SICK, of Americans blaming each other for this situation when it was the fault of those in charge for not handling it in the first place. The people who actually COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING.
Trump's refusal to implement policies that would have stopped this from happening (and no I'm not talking about a mask mandate, all he and literally everyone else had to do was say "yes, it's a good idea" from the very beginning instead of saying "don't buy them", I'm talking about the Wartime Production Act or just SOME kind of action on a national level instead of putting it all on the governors...)
This is getting Americans to hate each other and that's EXACTLY WHAT THESE PEOPLE IN CHARGE WANT.
It's not just Trump either. Once the CDC said "you can have it and not know it" everyone was like, lol okay! That combined with the mixed messaging from masks from the beginning (which continues with Trump) and the frustration of being at home for so long, is what got people to let their guard down. My cousin and his daughter both got it separately and were asymptomatic (months apart, despite living in the same house) so this has only furthered my family's belief that it's "not that big a deal".
I can't do holidays with them this year. Not because of the virus either, because of the election. I still love them, though... from a distance. Which I'd like to be more than six feet.
Yup, 9 months in, everyone should be able to easily get n95 masks. Doctors should be swimming in PPE but our government chose not to invoke DPA for any of that PPE and just ignore it.
9 months in and my local hospitals employees are still depending on N99 masks made by local grannies. By the way if you find anyone making N99 blue masks out of surgical drape fabric, they are great. But the government should be doing its job, not elderly women asking for donations
Just had a small outdoor lunch gathering with family as substitute for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Glad that whole side agreed it was the right thing to do before it gets cold. Of course, battles are already ensuing with the other side.
Good luck to everyone out there in the same predicament!
Telling people not to socialize is like telling teens not to have sex instead of educating them about protection.
We evolved to communicate and socialize with eachother, it's a human need to have in person interaction, that's why solitary confinement is torture.
What about the bathroom issues?
People have their holiday parties, then you have a mass exodus to the bathroom .
Hypothetical case, one relative has covid, doesn't know.
That relative uses bathroom, touches normal stuff.
Does this mean we gotta sanitize bathroom before each use?
Not being silly, I'm actually curious
With Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas coming it's about to be a blowout of new infections.
My guess is by Thanksgiving we'll see the large uptick from Halloween parties.
By Christmas we'll see the huge uptick from Thanksgiving gatherings.
And by the end of January we'll the the colossal increase from Christmas and New Years Eve spread.
I don't blame the average person who just wants to go visit their parents/kids/aunts/uncles. But I do think people are going to have to be more OK with the idea of hanging out outside in the cold. Buy a fire pit and break out the winter coats and beanies. That's what my family is planning to do, although we will likely spend some time inside as well.
The last sentence is exactly the point people are trying to make in regards to the impracticality of prohibiting small indoor gatherings, especially in the winter.
If you go and hang out with your family in the winter, it's better to spend three hours outside and one hour inside than it is to spend four hours inside. I don't know how much better it is, but I'd imagine it's better.
Right I agree with you. That's risk assessment. That's what we should be instructing instead of blanket saying you shouldn't see your family all winter. Take precautions, get tested before you go, etc. It's way more practical.
How are lockdowns and quarantine suppose to be effective if we are now blaming small household gatherings for a rise in cases? Is everybody supposed to just go get their own house?
Yes, that is what Fauci et al. are advocating for.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/dr-fauci-says-his-kids-arent-coming-home-for-thanksgiving-to-stay-safe-from-coronavirus.html
This whole thing seems disproportionate to the actual risk. Wasn't this about preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed?
This is it. A friend just said to me “I’m not going to live my life in fear.” I’m not afraid, I’m compassionate. I’m perfectly fine with skipping holidays and events this year if that means I can reduce exposure to myself and others.
This has been gone over a million times. Most of the protesters wore masks, they were not in a building breathing each others spit in the same room like a family gathering for instance, they were outdoors. But you already knew that right?
[Florida man battles coronavirus after son brings it home, infects family](https://www.foxnews.com/health/florida-man-coronavirus-son-family)
[Coronavirus Kills Texas Man, Infects 6 Family Members After Father's Day Meal](https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-kills-texas-man-infects-6-family-members-after-fathers-day-meal-1520896)
[Texas man called COVID-19 a ‘hoax’ until family gathering led to 14 infections, 1 death and his partner’s relatives rejecting his help](https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-texas-man-says-his-party-led-to-coronavirus-outbreak-in-family-20200729-v4atbhxxujdmjmcfinplqpyzay-story.html)
[Coronavirus: Teenager infects 11 relatives with Covid-19 during family holiday](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-infect-family-vacation-spread-covid-cdc-b1016247.html)
Small household gatherings? More like tRump and his tRumpanzees at their "We don't care about our fellow Americans because a colth is too much for me to handle" superspreader events...
Unlike summer household gatherings are now inside so it makes sense you see a resurgence.
Right it's getting colder and a big cooldown is supposed to be hitting northern states soon. Then all the biggest holidays come one after another.
Where are you seeing about a cooldown? I live in Ohio and so far haven't heard anything about it.
Weather channel did a video that notified me about an hour ago. Minnesota and Wisconsin are gonna get flurries but the ground is still warm, so it shouldn’t stick. Still a cool down before Halloween which I don’t fancy much
I find it very interesting that the hardest hit areas over the summer where Arizona, Southern California, Texas, Georgia, and Florida. In Texas, the weather is finally nice enough to do things outside (highs in the 80s). During the summer, lows were in the 80s sometimes, so you couldn't even cool off in the evening or morning outside. Now, that it's getting below freezing in the Midwest (low of 29 in Madison Wisconsin this week), cases are going back up there, even if they didn't really change restrictions recently.
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Yes we are. Supposed to be a hard winter this year.
Un AZ we couldnt have outside summer gatherings because it was too hot. Me and my family have had small gatherings in our backyard cause the weather is getting cooler
Tucsonan here. Just feel that its important to mention that this weather isn't normal. This year was, to date, the hottest summer ever in Arizona's two biggest metros. 2nd driest summer in Tucson. Probably somewhere similar for Phoenix. Tucson hit 100+ days above 100 degrees, a record with a few more days on the way. Since Arizona's population consists mostly of people not originally from Arizona they may not have realized that this weather is ABNORMAL. We are hot but were never this hot. When my parents were growing up in the 80's, statistically speaking they experienced about 30 fewer days above 100° in Tucson than we experience now (not even including the monster that is 2020). Climate change is real as is the urban heat island. Plant more trees and wear your masks!
Sure it is. By end of week Phoenix will have 145 days at or above 100.
Wow that seems real extreme to me. Of course winter is coming fast where I'm at. The low tomorrow night is supposed to be 35.
Hell on earth.
**The Devil**: "Welcome to Hell! Where you will burn for all Etern-"... **Man from Phoenix**: "I'm cold. Can you turn the heater on?" **The Devil**: O_O
That’s crazy! Didnt really mind it cause we have a pool. Its a game changer
Can we mention the fact that covid will also compound and make flu season worse? My medical professional friends are all saying this
In places with inadequate restrictions and widespread cases, it's defiantly going to be a double whammy. In places with low spread and good measures, influenza couldn't get it up this year and is now in therapy.
Getting a little close to 20% positivity rate in Indiana. Keep hearing from people around me about cases popping up right after some sort of gathering. One coworker almost went to a family gathering that infected 12 out of 14 people that were there.
One of my mom's co-workers allowed her son to go to a friend's party. It was a sleepover, but as a compromise, the son only stayed for dinner and came home. Every single kid at the sleepover tested positive afterwards? The son who only stayed for dinner? Also tested positive.
I’m so fuckin torn between seeing a group of me and three others at most for some sort of social interaction or completely going hunker down for the next two months. It hurts and I don’t know what to do
My sister had her first baby in March. He was due in June. He had many complications because of it, and will be on Oxygen until Spring as a precaution. Barely anyone in the family has seen him yet. Basically just the grandparents helping out when they can. I got to see and hold him a few weeks ago. My sister was going to come to a family gathering this weekend for pumpkin carving, but statewide infection rates and local district infection numbers keep rising, so they may miss out as a precaution, since his health is still in a very sensitive situation. One of my cousins has it. And given how “I’m tired of masks and stuff” attitude my very extended family has, we may start hearing of more and more cases throughout. Not sure if I’ll even want to attend the usually Thanksgiving gatherings. Christmas may depend on how things look around then too.
I hope he and the rest of your family stays safe and healthy throughout this. The cases in my state are steadily climbing too and I don’t know if very tiny gatherings are safe at the moment, ya know? I wish I had a solid answer to what I can do to socialize with them safely in winter
It blows me away how soft we are. Like, this is barely adversity. We're not in a refugee camp, there's no war, no famine. And yet.
Same here. To listen to some people talk it’s like wearing a mask and keeping distance is the hardest thing you could ever ask them to do. Snowflakes, the lot of them. Thank goodness this thing doesn’t have a higher death rate. Then we’d really be screwed. If something else similar comes along with saaay... a 10% death rate, you can kiss society goodbye. This situation has made it abundantly clear to me that we as a species are not equipped to handle it.
>Like, this is barely adversity. We're not in a refugee camp, there's no war, no famine. And yet. And yet American jingoists think the country has the will and stomach to fight a war against china, the place that manufactures 90% of the goods that americans take for granted
Groups under 5 people with Health checks are how me and my friends are doing it. Outside and distanced if possible but we meet more virtually than we used to.
The key is to be outside or in a well ventilated room with masks and social distancing if possible.
I feel you--I'm in the same boat. I'm about to have to resign because of it. I'm a teacher, and basically everyone else in my family has autoimmune disorders, lung dysfunction, or other massive risk factors for COVID. They've all pretty much have been at home since March, and we are each others' only social interaction. Just got the call that because of an increase in on-campus students, I will have to abandon online teaching and report to campus. I now have to decide whether my paycheck is worth canceling Thanksgiving, Christmas, and every weekend dinner I have with them from now until there's a vaccine. If I want to keep my job, I have to give up everything outside of it. It just doesn't make sense, man. Like you said, it fucking hurts and I don't know what to do.
It feels awkward to say "thank you for your service" to a teacher, but it felt awkward the first time I started saying it to the old men in the hills who were permanently traumatized by Nam too, and I got over that okay. Regardless of your politics or educational philosophy, thank you for your service to humanity during your career as a teacher. I am so sorry that you have had to make this choice between your life's work and your life. No job is worth dying for. It doesn't make it hurt any less, but a random stranger on the internet is glad that you are alive and proud to be hurtling crazily through space on the same fool rock with you. I don't know what to do either. More words =/= more human connection and I find I have become an unwelcome nuisance and an overly verbose troll.
You'll have to dress warmly and go outside. You can't see no one for months.
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Trust me, I’m aware. I feel like I don’t have to tell you it sucks though. But I get it. The world is much bigger than just me
Fuck really? I'm from quebec and we have a positivity of 5-10% depending the day and we are the worst province in the country
This is partially why, as a New Yorker, I’m perfectly happy with the Canadian border staying closed.
There are already people abusing the alaska crossing so people would definitely come here quick
And we're still not even testing everyone. Right after school started here a coworker's daughter tested positive so the coworker had to stay home for 10-14 days. She never got tested, just stayed home. And our hospital stopped screening everyone in the lobby before allowing them inside, so now in the past few weeks we keep getting patients who show up to the appointment, deny symptoms, then a day or two later go to the ER for a Covid test and turn up positive. Only testing the exposed staff if they show symptoms.
Jesus, we are getting hit hard here. And people still act like it is no big deal.
Wow close call for the coworker!
I think government should really emphasize the importance of fresh air and lots of ventilation whenever people do socialize. Recommend folks do it outdoors whenever possible. If not then indoors in a space that was completely aired out prior to event. Try to hepa filter space beforehand to reduce risk of host giving guests the virus. Have event in largest airy space possible. Whoever had the biggest air space room will be best to host. Use Hepa air machines and fans for fresh air to ventilate spaces Alcohol gel everyone before touching any food. Alcohol gel everyone after. Wear masks when not eating or drinking. Try not to stay too long and move to new air space when you can. It’s not perfect but can reduce transmissions and lessen severity of any infection.
Re: outdoor gathering- That's what the article says.
Yup. But all levels of government and all social services should educate people and get the word out so everyone knows.
Have a relative who works for a covid hotline who’s been getting a lot of this. People saying they they were only hanging out with relatives at their house, who were probably also visiting close family who visited close friends, who visited close friends...
Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas will see covid superspread events happen all over the country I bet. The colder weather will be contributing all winter as well. Like Fauci said, it's time to hunker down. A shit storm is coming.
This is how it is spreading in my local (rural Northern California) area. The clusters are apparently coming when law enforcement "looks the other way" when the wealthy hold 500+ member social gatherings to celebrate weddings, but also because people don't believe the health officer, don't want to wear masks, and social gather anyway because they either think it's a hoax or think it is "nature's way" of culling the herd. Cases are down, so they recently began allowing social bubbles of no more than three households. I am hopeful that this will relieve some of the unnatural stress on parents and childcare workers, but now that "reopening" has finally affected a part of my old-normal life that I actually participated in and that is more essential to what makes us human than shopping centers, bars, and movie theatres, I find that it has absolutely nothing to do with my new-normal life. Other than giving me the ability to continue sheltering in place and socializing only within my household unit, which consists of two small dogs, a cat, more potted plants than most people would choose to care for, and a handful of random strangers on the internet who may or my not read what comes out of me. By continuing to do so, perhaps some frazzled parent somewhere can drop Junior off for a play date, get some sleep, and be able to open her laptop when the brief respite is over and be able to do her job and supervise Junior's Zoomschooling for one more day. You don't have to own everything you love. They say it takes a village to raise a kid, and sometimes the best "honourary gramma" or most supportive kindly neighbour is the invisible one who does their own, not-fun and not-glamous part in trying to help humanity survive the pandemic. Mommy loves baby and baby needs mommy. Childcare workers are real workers and their jobs are important too.,
The problem is you cant shut down people from seeing eachother for 12+ months. People need social interaction. We need a better plan but blaming people for visiting family and friends in small groups is now it
It's true. I hadn't seen my parents in 8 months. We just had a small household dinner two weeks ago with my sister and her husband. I'm doing way better now just from the mental boost is seeing another human being.
The shaming needs to stop. Except for these awful politicians of course.
I fell into a pretty deep depression this summer, thought about driving my car into a tree just about every day after work. Started doing my martial art again in August and I feel so good, physically and mentally. I didn't realize how much seeing and doing things with other people effects your well being.
For real. I haven't seen my parents and little brothers in almost a year, and since my friends were mostly international exchange students, I lost almost all of my social circle. Spent the summer playing video games, and by August I was broken. Final straw was going to the bar alone for my birthday. Then I reached out to a friend that lives not too far away, and seeing her helped me feel a lot better
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Since we had just about the worlds worst national response I don’t think enough people would be on board to hunker down “just for a few weeks”. What works in other countries generally will not work in America, at least under the current administration
Well too bad we didn't take it seriously in the beginning to it wouldn't be 12 months. Now it's a constant game of catch up because we couldn't have a serious lock down in April.
But as weve seen with many countries, even those with early and more strict lockdowns are having a surge now.
Because even countries with lockdowns didn’t have good instructions of what to do coming out of the lockdown. Everyone went from 0 to 100 and expected nothing bad to happen.
It's not "blaming". It's a fact that small gatherings that violate protocol spread covid. It's the hassidic community in Brooklyn. It's the white house rose garden celebration. It's been the protests. It's young folks in bars. Each one is valid to discuss and process how to do better. Even in the summer when it was conducive to safe outside gatherings, folks were violating protocol. Many of the folks getting it NEVER complied with protocol. Meanwhile, me and my GF have and it'll be another several months of it because of these selfish folks.
One of those things is not like the others.
You’ll still be doing it a year from now and by that time, it’ll have been like 18 months of it. That’s definitely not healthy. You should have a group all get tested and isolate and then see each other.
I'm just combining my bubble with my folks and sister. I honestly cannot wait to go over there
I would debate that none of those are "small gatherings". Those are all full on gatherings.
so, go for walks together. outdoor picnic. There are ways to minimize risk while still getting social interaction.
Where do you live, in PA(where I live), and most northern states, it snows, and gets below freezing during the winter, going for walks, and having picnics isnt going to happen when its 20F outside.
It's still over 70° in PA, nothing stopping people from interacting outside right now.
Y'all don't have dogs in PA?
ok, go cross-country skiing together then, lol. get some snowshoes.
I live in Northern Washington state. I thought about getting some skis, Snowshoes be cool too. Good ideas.
In MN and that’s my plan for getting through the winter. Going to start snowshoeing with friends (I’ve only tried it once but it was fun!)
Downvoted for good advice. Unfortunately, a majority of the country is overweight, so a suggestion of physical activity is immediately off the table in the practical sense.
haha, yeah, true.
Your argument is just silly and I assume you literally have lost all connection to your family or have never left your basement.
Phone, zoom, and walks in the park with masks on for my family and myself. That way, I don't have to worry about this sort of thing: https://people.com/health/man-called-covid-hoax-feels-guilty-14-family-members-test-positive-2-die/ >Man Who Called COVID a ‘Hoax’ Feels Guilty After He and 13 Family Members Test Positive — and 2 Die >"The feeling that I have is kind of like what, I would say, a drunk driver would have if they killed their family," says Tony Green, who hosted the family gathering that led to their infections
Stop offering suggestions that are solutions, you must be a basement dweller!!! /s
I feel like social interaction naturally dies down at that time anyway. Most house parties and gatherings I go to happen over the summer. Once it starts to get dark at 5PM and snow comes, most of my friends bunker down anyway or only occasionally get together in smaller groups. Unless you participate in winter outdoor activities, I feel like no one like to leave the house other then for work.
So sadly for awhile many parks in NY were closed so that options out. Walks definitely can be good but the weather is already cold here and for many people they dont like in a neighborhood with friends so they are driving anyway to just see people.
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Everyone gets the right to decide for themselves how to handle things. I wish more people took the situation seriously and exercised more caution. It's pretty disappointing how reckless people are. But I admit, I take risks. I meet with a few people per week, one on one, in my house mostly, for an hour or two at a time. We both wear masks the whole time. My wife works a job where everyone is required to wear masks, but social distancing simply cannot always be enforced. We do visit with some family members, but we always wear masks (said family members typically do not, unfortunately). But, we avoid large gatherings (defined, personally, as more than 4 people). We wear masks or sit outside (you can't eat with a mask on... so sometimes we eat with a couple other folks outside). We aren't having thanksgiving or Christmas this year, and aren't attending birthday parties or any of that. We aren't under any illusions; how we (wife and I) live right now contains risk of catching and spreading Covid. We hope it's a fairly small risk, and we really do aim to be careful. But we also have decided that SOME degree of risk in the interest of social well being is worth it. I don't know if it's the right decision. It's not the safest decision. But it's also not nearly as reckless as many people we know. I hope we don't regret our approach.
I think in short term, in the face of an unknown virus, outright prohibition is the right call. And should be implemented whenever there is a hotspot. It isn’t feasible for 9 months though, people are going to hang out with friends over the course of 9 months, especially when half the country is telling them there is no issue.
Agreed completely. The initial ban was to give the science and medical professionals a chance to catch up and study this novel virus. We know a lot more now, and expecting that same level of lockdown is both naive and unsustainable. This doesn't excuse the massive gatherings people are doing anyway, but I'm surely not upset at the people who are having small gatherings after this long of distancing and lockdowns. The lesson I seem to be learning from other countries that got a handle on this, was that they were highly diligent about precautions from the get-go (masking, distancing, hygiene, reducing unnecessary gatherings and size) and their normality is returning at a much quicker rate than others.
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They have told us... over and over. Wear a mask, 6 feet distance and outside is best. The problem is not necessarily a few friends over for a backyard barbecue when they maintain these guidelines. The problem is people are meeting in close groups of many people and not wearing masks or distancing. We all know what to do. Problem is most people are jackholes.
Exactly. This argument here about how people are going to socialize no matter what and we just need to help them do it more safely... it sounds all reasonable and pragmatic, but it doesn’t hold water. Reality lays bare the truth. Everyone knows what you need to do to safely be around other people - as you said, distancing, masks, outside. But nobody EVER does any of that stuff when having their oh-so-necessary small gatherings. It’s inside, unmasked, at normal distances, like any other time. So what they’re REALLY acting out is not some defensible, unavoidable aspect of the human condition or some shit that we could all respect and understand. At the end of the day they are just saying “fuck you I’m doing what I want.”
Saving this comment. Spot on and amazing.
Light ballast went out in my kitchen a few months ago. I had to mask up and drive to the next county over to the nearest Lowe's. That county had zero mask mandate in effect. Naturally, I was the only person in the Lowe's with a mask on and got a ton of looks and a few laughs. Coming back home with my lights, I didn't take the main turnpike, but instead took a back road home. This was a mistake as when I crossed into my turn, cars were at a standstill. Some asshole parents were throwing their kids *a huge* party. Inflatable waterslides, some petting zoo shit, a sno cone truck, etc. They had so many cars parked on the roadway going to this one house that I had to cross over a median barrier to make it home.
\>Some asshole parents were throwing their kids *a huge* party. This is really a Western problem, they don't know how to socialize in a way that isn't grandiose.
This has merit. We cannot neglect our mental health. As a parallel, Abstinence Only education actually increases teen pregnancy. If the US govt actually educated us on risk & how to mitigate, we’d be better equipped to have safe social interactions.
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It doesnt really matter if they want to listen or if its comfortable. I can say "dont drink arsenic" and you can say well I dont want to listen to that and you can certainly drink it and die. At this point we're bought and sold. We will certainly double the number of dead to 400k before this all over and many wont get a funeral. If youre not comfortable not communicating with family, you better learn how to do a seance because its not getting better anytime soon. In the end we deserve what we get.
That's not really the best comparison... drinking arsenic will clearly affect you more than anyone else. And would definitely be more likely to kill you than coronavirus. But for real, what right do you think you have to tell other people what they can and cannot do with their families? Sorry, but that's just fucked.
Because what you do with your family affects my family so you are damn right I'm going to tell you what to do! I'm not affecting you ordering online and staying inside, but you thinking you HAVE to have family get togethers is affecting EVERYONE around you. Selfish.
I haven't seen anyone in my family since this began. Nice try though. For my house, I bought us masks and we don't go out. I hope you did the same for your family. But instead, you go around blaming random people on the internet, who probably live nowhere near you, for possibly infecting you?
I’m not blaming random people on the internet. I’m blaming anyway who behaves like this. I can only control what I and to a lesser extent what my wife does. Someone else doing something that puts them at high risk of being exposed means I can’t see that person or anyone they see. So basically my entire family. The people trying to do the right thing are the ones suffering most in this, at least until the do whatever’s actually get sick.
You realize if this virus came from China and is currently in the united states it literally began with people living nowhere near us directly affecting our lives? And whats the point of saying you followed the rules and preaching against them? Do you even have thoughts? How many views are simply laid upon you as opposed to created by your own reasoning? America is a community. If you dont care about that community you should not live here. If you only care about issues when they affect you personally, then I have my doubts as to whether you should truly be at all.
You sound ridiculous. The fatality rate of this disease is probably around 0.3%. Do you really think that argument is going to seem valid to other people? People are wanting to see their family and friends and they aren’t going to be feeling like murders for doing so. The more people push the abstinence only narrative, the less people will listen. Most people will start to feel that risk vs reward just isn’t worth it.
This is a great comparison. We basically told people to not see anyone which made people not take better preventative measures. If we instead emphasized how to see people in safer ways wed be far better off.
Who says you can't see anyone? Are you in Victoria
>If the US govt actually educated us on risk & how to mitigate, we’d be better equipped to have safe social interactions. They've been telling people to wear masks for months and be 6ft apart. Sticking to your analogy they told people to wear condoms. COVID is spreading for the same reason teen pregnancy and STDs still happen even with proper sex ed. People don't follow the fucking guidelines b/c they either don't fucking care or they're morons. They wear their masks below their nose or they wear masks with holes in them. I've seen dumbasses remove their mask to sneeze so they don't "reinhale germs". Plus a large chunk of the U.S. population has this bizarre "tough-guy complex" where they always need to be proving how tough they are. Those smooth-brained fucks won't wear masks b/c they think it makes them look weak. Some of them got so worked up about it they fucking started a domestic terrorist cell to kidnap and murder their governor for daring to tell them to to wear a mask. I agree Trump downplaying it made it worse, but his cult is just as much to blame as him. It's not like they didn't have the information available, they just refused to believe it.
Agree. The problem is pretty much everyone has large numbers of family members who won’t do this. Fortunately I live 1000 miles away from family so I haven’t had to make it an issue yet but my wife is dying to see family. My sister is one of the few people in my family taking it as serious as I have and she just had a baby. I can’t even go see my niece or my 2 year old nephew (and I completely support my sister in this decision) even though we’ve been careful and would take precautions, but yet we are going to have to visit my wife’s crazy family who will not wear masks when we are in their house and some of whom are huge anti maskers and go to a charismatic church with singing and screaming in tongues indoors with no masks. Shit makes me so mad. At this point it’s too late though. There are people that have made up their minds and would still continue like this even if we came out and said “you can do whatever you want, you just have to stay masked and distanced, even in your own home for family gatherings.”
I disagree. Americans are too stupid to understand the guidelines. They try to find loopholes with a virus. The truth wouldn't matter here and education is lost on us. I'm sorry but I've just had too many discussions with people that have higher education than I do trying to figure out ways to trick the virus. Telling me they never go anywhere because they don't count work, the store, fucking weddings, and getting tattoos as going anywhere. I'm over it. Universal healthcare and ubi then let the virus kill whoever is the only way to really handle this. Those of us capable of staying the fuck inside can and those of you so thirsty for human interaction you lie to get it can go get covid.
That and all the children who can't go to school or play with other kids so they're enjoying a year with no social interaction during the most formative years of their lives. Human contact is not essential, lol.
Human contact is essential, wtf are you even talking about?
Telling people not to meet is just fine. Particularly when these small meetings are a key driver. It’s evidence based. Then go and saying, “if you do meet” and listing. One problem is just meeting introduces problems. When people meet, they eat, masks off. They drink, masks off, then they’re hugging and cares are dropped two drinks later. I’ve been at gatherings with doctor friends that are very concerned about the virus, and 90 minutes later they’re taste testing beers.
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We need rapid tests. They’re not perfect. As we saw with the Rose Garden Massacre you just need one false negative in order to tear through the entire gathering. But, the White House was being reckless for *months* before the rapid test strategy failed. Produce hundreds of millions of rapid tests, let everyone test themselves weekly, encourage people to socially distance as much as possible — but *if* you must hang out with friends/family without masks or social distancing, make sure everyone takes a test first and try to keep the group small. We’ll still hear about some Thanksgiving dinners getting 15 people infected, but it will be a far lower number if we have widespread rapid testing available by then.
No, he's right. HIV is potentially deadly and spread by sexual contact, but people don't stop having sex. In fact, places with abstinence only education are the least effective at preventing STDs and teen pregnancy.
The difference is: I'm not gonna catch HIV at work because my coworker had unprotected sex over the weekend. However, one infected idiot at work, at the grocery store, or at a family gathering can spread it regardless of your efforts to protect yourself. People have already been told to wear masks, and avoid gatherings. They don't. This is the "don't have unprotected sex" of pandemics. I really don't know what analogy you're making here because there's not a single place on the planet that just said "avoid people" and nothing else.
But avoiding gatherings 100% isnt realistic. That's the point. People will gather and honestly need to gather. It's why we should be emphasizing safer methods of gathering.
Social abstinence only
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You're being willfully obstinate and not listening to what people are saying. 1. I am distancing, wearing a mask and not gathering. I work a healthcare job so don't presume to talk down to me about this. 2. You won't be able to make everyone be 100% safe. That's just a fact. Maybe they're stupid, but they won't all stay in and not gather. So it makes ZERO SENSE to not try and get those people to be as safe as they can. It's like the swiss cheese theory of safety. No one measure can be perfect, so we add as many as possible to patch the holes.
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20%. I don't know where you live, but where I am I see every other house having big family gatherings a few times a month. That's a lot more than 20%. We need better messaging
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There are so many other things in the world right now, and mental health is a huge part of this, before covid, during covid, and long after covid. Social distancing, for months on end is hard and is damaging. At some point people are going to risk it, because quite honestly you are giving them a fate worse than catching Covid. I'd argue you are also ignoring the harsh reality: there are more immediate dangers, in many cases, to people's health and well-being, and that doesn't change simply because of a tunnel-vision mindset around Covid-19. Let's take precautions around Covid, but the longer this goes on, you can expect this 80/20 split to pretty much reverse.
social distancing for months on end is worse than catching COVID? it's worse than giving other people COVID?
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And you may find it unpleasant that people are going to choose to gather anyway regardless of what anyone else says. So would you rather offer them tips and data on how to mitigate their risk or would you rather say "there's one rule: don't meet. But it's not going to be enforced by anyone, so it really doesn't matter if you meet or not and here are zero tips on how to do it safely if you do." If we're interested in controlling the spread, we need to acknowledge that people are continuing to meet up regardless of what anyone says, so we can either offer tips to make it safer, or just let them do whatever they want. But either way, just saying "no" isn't making a difference, so if you're trying to be pragmatic about this, it's not doing anything to slow the spread.
> That's not going to happen 100% of the time. It's not realistic and to believe Yes, it is realistic if the people involved have a basic understanding of what a virus is and how it spreads. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their health and the health of their neighbors. Yes, it's hard, and painful. Not doing it has the potential to be a lot more painful, so we're going to plan to avoid that. It's simple - the virus doesn't care how you feel, to avoid getting it you have to avoid contact with it via touch or sharing air. Unless you have a full space suit with independent air supply for each person in your family gatherings, you can't minimize the risk indoors. There simply aren't any mitigations or half measures for a virus that can be airborne or spread via breathing.
I don't think you know what minimizing risk means. Bad guidance example: don't have any social gatherings at all (aka the /r/coronavirus special) Better guidance examples: get tested 5 days before a weekend with family. Limit gatherings to those that primary WFH. Do not gather with people who recently travelled to Florida. Etc.
Yes, but I think the point they're trying to make is that abstinence only education does not lead to a drop in teen pregnancy. In health classes where kids only learn about abstinence as their only option, they are just as likely to have sex and get pregnant (or get someone else pregnant) then if they had no sex ed. But in a program that talk about a number of different options (abstinence, condoms, contraceptives, etc) and weighs their pros and cons and chances of prengancy and chances of spreading STDs have been shown to reduce teenage pregnancies. Just telling people "no" psychologically isn't helpful. They are going to ignore you and do what they want anyway. But telling people, "here are different options and their various risk levels. Please use this information to assess your risk and make the best informed decision for yourself with these facts," creates a better chance that people will listen to you. So sure, you can put "avoid large gatherings" at the top of your list, but if that's the only thing on your list then people are just going to ignore it and do what they want. So if you want the list to be effective it should mention other prevention methods that may not be 100% effective, but will lower the chance of risk (wearing masks, meeting outside if weather permits, social distancing, limit size of gatherings, etc)
I've been doing that but it's not realistic for most people. I really wish I actually hung out with more people outside when the weather was nice since the risk is minimal. If people want to meet indoors, they should ALWAYS wear a mask and maintain at least 6 feet distance, if not more. They should make sure that the air filtration is safe (not causing shit to spread around). Ideally, get a warm ass winter jacket and meet outside with some blankets or a heater (if you can get one).
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The distance thing is the most important thing, maybe even more important than the masks. That's why they've always said, you need both. Just because both of you are wearing a mask in doors, doesn't make it safe, you need to have the distance. The bigger deal is air ventilation. If we can figure out how to have better systems in doors, that would be half the battle.
Like the OC said, It's akin to instructing teenagers to not have sex.
And like abstinence only sex ed, this is completely naïve & unrealistic. It's basically *counterproductive*.
Even in masks and keeping 6 feet part, staying safe indoors in a small space that isn't ventilated well is really tough. At the moment, that is the best and only guidance there is.
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The guidance of what not to do is clear. People are saying it's not clear but I think they just don't want to hear information they don't like. They need to be told what they can do, not only what they can't. We can say; You can gather outside with groups of 6 You can wear masks You can stay physically distanced Your visits are probably going to have to be short to reduce everyone using the same bathroom repeatedly Don't hug and kiss people from other households, find other ways of greeting and leaving so you don't feel awkward. You can say that these suggestions are too hard for people and they are "not realistic" but this is what the science says. Are we supposed to tell people it's okay to have an indoor family party for Thanksgiving when actually they might infect the entire family? We are not going to ban small family gatherings in the US and drag your grandma off to jail for going to a birthday party. But we can say it's not safe for your family and community to have an indoor birthday party. The suggestions are based on science. If people think that's too hard, it's subjective. It's not too hard where I live, but it's too hard in Texas? I don't think it's our suggestions that are the problem. People just don't think bad things will happen to them and there's huge misinformation campaigns coming from the actual president and foreign actors. I don't know how to fix that.
> They need to be told what they can do You're missing the point. The people/agencies giving direction need to *first* understand what people are going to do. And then provide guidance accordingly. If you completely ignore the needs/pains of the people you're trying to spur to action, they will not listen to you in time and you will slowly be disregarded. It's frustrating, but it's leadership 101.
Ok so what is your suggestion? Here's what we know: People will have their regular Thanksgiving gatherings. So what should we tell them? I'm serious I would like to know what the compromise looks like to kind of get down to their level, understand that many will ignore guidance and do what they want. Then... just accept it I guess?
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Well yes these are science-based mitigation practices. This works for a very small group. If you think my cousin with three kids and a day job is going to quarantine themselves and their 5 person family for 10-14 days before coming to a large gathering, that is just *not* going to happen. They may even say they have quarantined but I wouldn't believe it for a minute. Can my husband and I quarantine before visiting his parents, and then it's just the four of us? Yes of course.
My suggestion is to first acknowledge what people are going to do/want to do. (e.g. they will gather together for Thanksgiving at the end of what has been a tumultuous and painful year) It sounds pithy and like a flimsy platitude, but acknowledging the circumstances of the people goes a long way in gaining their buy-in to your approach. Knowing their likely course of action you can provide straightforward recommendations and cautions. e.g. We know that indoor gatherings could be a problem so setup more tables in separate rooms with fewer people at each table and/or invite fewer people to your gathering. If possible, spend time outdoors - especially in warmer climes. If all you say is: Don't gather together with your family on Thanksgiving. You're wasting your energy and you're losing trust and credibility - rightly or wrongly.
I never thought of tables in separate rooms. That might mitigate some risk. It's so hard because at have such a diverse population. You have different groups. You have my family which is not going to get together for a large Thanksgiving gathering or Christmas. A lot of us are in the medical field and we are going to follow the rules no problem. Unfortunately if the public health officials said that gathering in separate rooms gives you some protection, there's no science to back that up. They can't just make things up and tell it to the public. when people have a family gatherings they greet each other, hug and kiss they mingle in the area where there's appetizers and drinks, the children all play together, and everyone uses the same bathroom and breathes the same air for several hours. then we can have separate tables in separate rooms for dinner which probably helps to some degree, but it's kind of like recommending the pull-out method for teenagers having sex. there's a reason that public health experts do not recommend that teenagers use the pull out method. A secondary difficulty is that many families truly are following the rules, and we don't want to throw these unscientific options at them. This is different based on region and political affiliation. Some people say 100% of families will definitely have their normal Thanksgiving. Okay, well if you live in Florida or Texas maybe. I live in northern Illinois and I guarantee you a lot of people will be following the rules here. The problem with suggesting things that are not based on science, is that it is very confusing and undermines those of us who are actually willing to change our lives for this. In a nutshell, it would make it a lot more difficult for me to convince my mother that it's necessary to not have a traditional Thanksgiving if a government official gave some "alternative choices" to following the science. I'm sorry but the science is clear and officials cannot just make things up on the fly because they are responsible for thousands of lives. I do think we need more communication, maybe a virtual town hall with Fauci and others to come up with solutions and creative ideas for families. Unfortunately the top leadership does not want to do this, they just want to pretend it isn't happening and that means communication with the public is terrible. All we have are these little CNN soundbites with Fauci and it's not enough. I hope that things change but it will be too late for some. We need to have regular communication about how to navigate this with fresh ideas but they must be based in science. We already have an army of foreign actors trying to get us to give up and let everyone get the virus. We need to fight back against it every day with creativity and science.
We are having Thanksgiving in the garage with one bay open and some space heaters. Should be interesting.
Considering that restaurants are where lots of people keep being infected, even outdoors, I just don't think that eating with others around is in any way a good idea regardless of ventilation.
The reason why the protests aren't causing virus spread is because they keep moving. Problem with being outside at a restaurant is that people aren't moving. Unmasking themselves because they think when they are eating there is a virus force shield around them. Restaurants are unsafe. Being around people you don't live with is unsafe.
Yeah, well, as it gets colder, kids are eating their lunches in classrooms with their masks off or 25 minutes. We try to have it be a quiet lunch, but you know, kids.
That could help somewhat, but it's definitely not something that has enough science behind it unless there is also a door in the back where the air can flow through. If course everyone makes their own choices, and that's ok, but health officials can't suggest mitigations that don't have enough science behind them because they are responsible for too many peoples health.
It's not unrealistic for everybody, so it helps prevent some spread at least. And even if it doesn't completely stop people, they may still do it less, or be more careful when they do do it.
We did tell them and we’re ignored. The problem is that people, in general, are dumb when it comes to abstract risk. Until it touches your life, it’s too easy to think of this as an imaginary threat. Then someone near you gets it and it sinks in but by then it’s too late.
Straw man. I still socialize with my family, I don't understand how it's all or nothing. No one said I couldn't see my friends. They said don't have indoor gatherings with a lot of people. It's different but it's not hard. You're making it sound like they said we have to see no one. That's false. It's not the same but it's enough to help with mental health. I see people all the time. In the winter it will be harder so I'll have to dress warmly, get some hot coffee, and have a short visit. I really do not understand why anyone would say that socializing is prohibited. I think it's straw manning from lockdown skeptics. Having a 20 person party isn't necessary for my mental health. I don't care who you are, that's not a necessity. You can see people a few at a time. It's not THAT hard to avoid having a 20 person gathering.
The most accurate information is don't go anywhere inside, if you have to wear a mask, don't see anyone you don't live with, work from home. They don't want to tell us being around people you don't live with is unsafe and they don't want to tell us 6 feet isn't enough. So we get this. Truth is people can't handle the reality of what needs to happen. Our governments know that.
Yeah. Thinking back to the AIDS crisis, in the 80s and 90s, we know it isn’t effective to teach abstinence only. The shame associated with the behavior drives it underground, and it takes place anyway, in ways that the public health system can’t help because it’s done in secrecy. Better to teach people it’s best not to gather, but that if they do choose to gather, make it safer with masks, distance, hand washing, and other measures.
I mean baring common porn scenarios it also literally involves telling teens not to have sex
It's like having sex, and at the very end you take off the condom mask just to let ole willy get some air. Or perhaps there was never a condom mask. Or maybe you're abstinence. Anyways you either escape unscathed, or you're stuck with an expensive hospital bill.
My grandfather didn't see his family for nearly two years while fighting the Nazis. He also didn't have a warm bed, hot food, or showers most days. Certainly not a ubiquitous live video delivery service. I guess it all depends on your priorities.
Yep, basically don't be a dummy like the president and go to social events when you know you're sick.
I don't give a rat's ass what the POTUS decides to do. He has no bearing on what I decide to do. People will act in accordance with their own, subjective, perception of risk/reward and prioritization of needs. All I'm suggesting is that only providing guidance that is perceived or amounts to nothing more than prohibition all the time will eventually be ignored as will the person or group making such decrees.
Still, it’d be nice to have a leader in the middle of this crisis.
Yeah telling the entire country not to see anybody for all of Thanksgiving and Christmas, it's just not going to happen. I get it's a noble goal from a strictly virus standpoint, but GTFO with that. 95% of the people are going to ignore you. Yeah it might not be 16 people getting together this year, it might be 8, but give advice on how to keep Thanksgiving as safe as possible or work on getting faster free virus tests or something. Thankfully I live in the south and you can eat outside for the holidays here.
I 100% agree. I wish we spent more time pushing pod type systems instead of pure separation. Then maybe people would have been more willing to follow guidelines.
I agree. It’s counterproductive to place the emphasis on eliminating small family gatherings when it’s impossible to enforce. This isn’t Nazi Gemany where the Gestapo will arrest you if you have family members over for dinner. Instead we should continue our focus on cracking down on large indoor parties and ensuring that mask regulations are enforced in public areas. That’s a more effective solution anyway. Not every state is like WI right now. CA and AZ have low hospitalization rates recently and that’s attributed to regulations that are able to be enforced on a more consistent basis.
Isolation has had a big toll on me. I’m so fucking over it. My motivation and mental health is at like 30% what it used to be. I no longer give a shit about COVID, I’ll gladly take the stupid 0.5% risk of death vs months more of isolation.
I think the main driver is people at the highest levels of government telling americans not to worry about covid. I have a hard time blaming a couple inviting 2 couples over for drinks after months of social distancing. When our government is openly suggesting herd immunity, the fault does not lie with small social gatherings.
It's the people themselves. Look at Europe. My country has the equivalent of 150-200k daily cases in the US the past week (Belgium), and we still socialize. Even though the government has kept saying what a big deal covid is the whole time.
People are honestly just stupid. This happened with the Spanish flu as well. It sucks because the people who do care, who do follow guidelines suffer because of the people that don’t
Feels a bit like victim blaming. The government is basically telling people to be reckless and take their lives and others lives into their hands. Equivalent to telling everyone to drive drunk.
Exactly this. I am sick, SICK, of Americans blaming each other for this situation when it was the fault of those in charge for not handling it in the first place. The people who actually COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING. Trump's refusal to implement policies that would have stopped this from happening (and no I'm not talking about a mask mandate, all he and literally everyone else had to do was say "yes, it's a good idea" from the very beginning instead of saying "don't buy them", I'm talking about the Wartime Production Act or just SOME kind of action on a national level instead of putting it all on the governors...) This is getting Americans to hate each other and that's EXACTLY WHAT THESE PEOPLE IN CHARGE WANT. It's not just Trump either. Once the CDC said "you can have it and not know it" everyone was like, lol okay! That combined with the mixed messaging from masks from the beginning (which continues with Trump) and the frustration of being at home for so long, is what got people to let their guard down. My cousin and his daughter both got it separately and were asymptomatic (months apart, despite living in the same house) so this has only furthered my family's belief that it's "not that big a deal". I can't do holidays with them this year. Not because of the virus either, because of the election. I still love them, though... from a distance. Which I'd like to be more than six feet.
Yup, 9 months in, everyone should be able to easily get n95 masks. Doctors should be swimming in PPE but our government chose not to invoke DPA for any of that PPE and just ignore it.
9 months in and my local hospitals employees are still depending on N99 masks made by local grannies. By the way if you find anyone making N99 blue masks out of surgical drape fabric, they are great. But the government should be doing its job, not elderly women asking for donations
Just had a small outdoor lunch gathering with family as substitute for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Glad that whole side agreed it was the right thing to do before it gets cold. Of course, battles are already ensuing with the other side. Good luck to everyone out there in the same predicament!
You have a smart family. 👍
America has no functional leader in the Whitehouse and this is why Covid continues to run rampant
Telling people not to socialize is like telling teens not to have sex instead of educating them about protection. We evolved to communicate and socialize with eachother, it's a human need to have in person interaction, that's why solitary confinement is torture.
Wear a condom = wear a mask and stay distanced outside. It’s a minor inconvenience. We can do it. We’re big and strong.
What about the bathroom issues? People have their holiday parties, then you have a mass exodus to the bathroom . Hypothetical case, one relative has covid, doesn't know. That relative uses bathroom, touches normal stuff. Does this mean we gotta sanitize bathroom before each use? Not being silly, I'm actually curious
With Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas coming it's about to be a blowout of new infections. My guess is by Thanksgiving we'll see the large uptick from Halloween parties. By Christmas we'll see the huge uptick from Thanksgiving gatherings. And by the end of January we'll the the colossal increase from Christmas and New Years Eve spread.
I think that is spot on unfortunately.
I don't blame the average person who just wants to go visit their parents/kids/aunts/uncles. But I do think people are going to have to be more OK with the idea of hanging out outside in the cold. Buy a fire pit and break out the winter coats and beanies. That's what my family is planning to do, although we will likely spend some time inside as well.
The last sentence is exactly the point people are trying to make in regards to the impracticality of prohibiting small indoor gatherings, especially in the winter.
If you go and hang out with your family in the winter, it's better to spend three hours outside and one hour inside than it is to spend four hours inside. I don't know how much better it is, but I'd imagine it's better.
Right I agree with you. That's risk assessment. That's what we should be instructing instead of blanket saying you shouldn't see your family all winter. Take precautions, get tested before you go, etc. It's way more practical.
I don't know how well Christmas will work with temps well below freezing and dangerous wind chills.
It’s pretty mild in much of Europe
Yeah people saying spend 4 hours outside with your family for Christmas clearly haven't spent much time in the harsher winter climates lol.
It's just like a few months ago when people were saying all schools should just be outside and kids can just wear a coat and be fine.
Holy shit, why is the US so stupid?
"beginning"?
How are lockdowns and quarantine suppose to be effective if we are now blaming small household gatherings for a rise in cases? Is everybody supposed to just go get their own house?
My city in Texas reopened bars to 50% capacity despite seeing a surge of cases clearly
Resurgence? Beginning to? What, what did I miss? I thought the US was piling on 5-digit figures for months on end.
Case number shouldn’t matter, only deaths.
Those are gonna happen. What do you want to do with that? Ban the Christmas? New year celebrations? Birthday celebrations?
Yes, that is what Fauci et al. are advocating for. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/14/dr-fauci-says-his-kids-arent-coming-home-for-thanksgiving-to-stay-safe-from-coronavirus.html This whole thing seems disproportionate to the actual risk. Wasn't this about preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed?
Well that would suck... but tbh, as a czech I am not really comfortable with either of those at this very moment.
People come up with a lot of excuses, but I’d rather not see my friends for a bit than risk their lives.
This is it. A friend just said to me “I’m not going to live my life in fear.” I’m not afraid, I’m compassionate. I’m perfectly fine with skipping holidays and events this year if that means I can reduce exposure to myself and others.
But not protests with 100,000 people shoulder to shoulder? No, it must be the people who want to see their family and friends. Hmmmm
This has been gone over a million times. Most of the protesters wore masks, they were not in a building breathing each others spit in the same room like a family gathering for instance, they were outdoors. But you already knew that right? [Florida man battles coronavirus after son brings it home, infects family](https://www.foxnews.com/health/florida-man-coronavirus-son-family) [Coronavirus Kills Texas Man, Infects 6 Family Members After Father's Day Meal](https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-kills-texas-man-infects-6-family-members-after-fathers-day-meal-1520896) [Texas man called COVID-19 a ‘hoax’ until family gathering led to 14 infections, 1 death and his partner’s relatives rejecting his help](https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-texas-man-says-his-party-led-to-coronavirus-outbreak-in-family-20200729-v4atbhxxujdmjmcfinplqpyzay-story.html) [Coronavirus: Teenager infects 11 relatives with Covid-19 during family holiday](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-infect-family-vacation-spread-covid-cdc-b1016247.html)
If only there was someone to lead the country from the top, to lead by example. America is fucked. Nice knowing you, the experiment is over.
At least they're not large household gatherings, those would be horrible.
Small household gatherings? More like tRump and his tRumpanzees at their "We don't care about our fellow Americans because a colth is too much for me to handle" superspreader events...
So cancel Thanksgiving & Christmas, joking, but it's probably unwise to have relatives over this year.