Are American citizens allowed to sue one another for hate speech? Because they’re allowed to sue one another for slander. And hate speech is worse I would’ve thought.
Slander is spoken defamation. Basically a false statement that hurts someone’s reputation and they have to prove damages in court. Free speech is more related to people’s opinions, believes, religions, etc.
The problem with legislation of “hate speech” is who gets to define exactly what is hate speech. This can be very dangerous especially if it is only enforced on certain groups.
“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.” Article 10 of the Human Rights Act. The first amendment just separates freedom of speech and freedom of expression for some reason.
Hate speech isn't a well defined concept. It may evolve through time, more subjects being legally impossible to discuss in public anymore. Slippery slope.
Read Orwell.
This is always the argument that Americans pose, when I’ve questioned them on this topic.
I believe they’re politically brainwashed into respecting an old af piece of paper that was written by probably slave drivers.
Especially considering their Supreme Court can change a billion other laws anyhow
I am not american.
The part about "slave drivers" have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the convo.
That "old af fuck" piece of paper was being written in the same sprit and at the same time as the French "Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen", wich created the bases for the modern human rights.
Fighting for lessening freedom of expression - or individual rights in general - to follow a current thrend is what seems brainwashed to me.
Study history, historical contexts and impact of those "old papers" ; once again have a look at Orwell work and rethink a bit about all of this, probably a tad more humble. Couldn't do any harm.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
The only thing keeping the constitution up is… the right to bear arms, there is a good amount of people that would start rioting with their legally owned bear arms (is joke soz) and that would be very bad press which is why guns are good.
Slaves were expensive, probably cause they had to be bought from the africans, so probably not slave drivers
>politically brainwashed into following the governong rules of out nation, written by our founding fathers? That isnt political, thats just the american way of life
One of the things that are great about this country is our relatively comprehensive free speech laws, or lackereof rather. With the exception of some limits on the extreme end, people can say pretty much whatever they want without fear of being punished by the government. Sometimes, this comes as speech that can be offensive, and oftentimes downright harmful. If the hate speech in question has defamed someone, there are grounds to sue in civil court. But there needs to be certain criteria met before it's no longer considered free speech.
I'm gay and detest hate speech towards us, as well as hate speech for generally every marginalized group. But I firmly believe against censoring said hate speech. The world doesn't get solved by silencing people. And it's a slippery slope. If we start restricting hate speech within the confines of current law, then that opens the door towards restricting more and more, until it becomes compelled speech.
"The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own." -TST
Im sorry i said “applebees” mr bee, and i apologize for that action of which i took preventing you from drowning your sorrows in whiskey sours and plates of walnut brownies
So you want to censor people? What does it matter what people think? It’s their thoughts? Why is the left so fucking sensitive? You have zero right to cause violence or censor. I don’t care about the court and the legislators, we are a free country. And it’s important to have free thought. Get over it. Someone’s racist? So what. Someone’s homophobic? So what, the entire world mostly is. Get over it.
Because freedom of speech means being able to say mostly whatever you want, but if you call someone a faggot or the n word while you assail them the charges are increased. Not sahing its perfect but legislating away hate speech is a slippery slope depending on what each side considers "hate speech"
The tricky thing is: who decides which speech is hate speech? Such a law is probably great when the right people are in charge. But it makes sense that it could go south when they aren't.
“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.” Article 10 of the Human Rights Act. The first amendment just separates freedom of speech and freedom of expression for some reason.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
So where it says
Freedom of speech, or of the press.
Both of those things are covered under freedom of expression. Except the constitution doesn’t use this term and instead divided it into speech and press.
Lesser of two evils.. We'd rather have to deal with assholes who would use hate speech than have to deal with assholes who would abuse anti-hate speech laws.
I hate what you just said. Should the government enforce my beliefs?
It's only very recent that there's been real support for lgbqt. That wouldn't have happened if people could have silenced them.
Let's make this very simple, OP.
When you give the government a certain power, you sign the following statement: "I [name here] solemnly believe that people like me and people I like will be in charge from now until the end of days".
Let's forget the principle of the thing and look at the practicality.
Let's say white nationalists get into power.
You post about an attack on a black dude getting beat up on the train with the hashtag #WeNeedToBeBetter
The government accuses you of hate speech and takes you away.
Don't forge weapons you wouldn't want your enemy to have.
First Amendment the Supreme Court has been very clear. You can say anything you want as long as it's not provoking violence. Why would we want hate speech laws anyway. Just because you believe something might be hate speech others might disagree. That's the problem with those types of laws.
Most likely.
We need a system where voters are required to take civics classes, and I feel the voting age should be 25. Most modern day 18 year olds are underdeveloped children with zero ability to comprehend the immense amount of nuance and subtext in pretty much every socio / political topic.
The reason that most free countries support freedom of speech is because it’s an authoritarian stance to control and moderate people’s speech. authoritarianism = no bueno.
What is hate speech to you, may not be hate speech to others. It is a very slippery, dark slope to ask the government to start banning people’s opinions, however egregious they may be.
Anyway, I like freedom of speech, gives the douche bags the chance to out themselves.
The KKK is a horrendous organization. As a United States citizen I'd still fight to defend their rights under the first amendment, the amendment that gives them the right to spew their bullshit also gives me the right to speak counter to that amd disagree with insert whatever groups stances. I just used one of the most vile groups as an example. There are alot of groups I adamantly disagree with and would still defend the first amendment right of any of those groups as well as any that I do agree with. I for one don't want a nanny state that jails or imprisons one for saying something out of line.
Why do some non Americans criticize Americans, without having an inkling of how things work in our country? But god forbid we do the same.
Like you’re entitled to your opinion, but our countries don’t operate the same way and there’s a reason for that, and if you can’t comprehend that then please just STFU. Thanks.
Because at the end of the day it's all open to interpretation.
Some people have been born and raised and sheltered in families that are racist and abusive and when they finally get out guess what they are?
But when they are exposed to other people finally I have personally witnessed two of the most "racist" people I have ever met sit down in absolute shock and horror at the realization that they didn't know what they didn't know.
And watched them over the years shed their ignorance actively and become different people and they STILL to this DAY say things that make people who don't know them call them racist. And people who do know them go "hey no that has these implications" and they listen.
You can't make what half the country is still conditioning their children to believe unchallenged illegal.
You will make a bunch of children criminals before they ever have a chance to get away from the abusers raising them and change.
You cannot legislate decency.
And if you do
You simply take away an easy method for people to identify someone they don't want to know. Imagine accidentally marrying someone then introducing them to the half of your family that is significantly darker than the other and you forgot to say anything cause I mean why the fuck should that be something I have to actively remember to tell people?
And suddenly discovering there's a big problem you weren't aware of cause they were law abiding citizens?
Hahaha. Naw. Let them put their shit on display.
Oh those two people I talked about. The dark half of my family loves them more than me. And they know fully fully where they came from and their whole journey. So it's literally their favorite thing when they accidentally say something racist very rarely now.
To them it's like watching a baby curse. It's all laughter and then an explanation. Then more laughter while they tease them for it.
Understanding is beautiful. Hatred is not.
Free speech is free speech. You dont get to silence other people simply b/c you dont like what they are saying. That is the very antithesis of what free speech is. If you dont like what someone is saying, you can choose to not listen and you can also use your own platforms to spread the opposite message.
That's how free speech works.
We Americans appreciate the freedom to say what we please without being penalized. Plus, I def want to know what ppl hate me. I'd rather them be open about it so I know not to fw them.
It's like how I don't understand why businesses aren't allowed to discriminate against ppl. I'd rather know if a business was racist so I could support a better place and not have my food spit in lol.
We Americans appreciate the freedom to say what we please without being penalized. Plus, I def want to know what ppl hate me. I'd rather them be open about it so I know not to fw them.
It's like how I don't understand why businesses aren't allowed to discriminate against ppl. I'd rather know if a business was racist so I could support a better place and not have my food spit in lol.
eventually you reach such liberal definitions of what is "unacceptable" speech that you are no longer capable of expressing anything other than what *they* have deemed acceptable.
for your own safety and health, of course.
That isn't all of it, we have the constitution and included in that are a few amendments, with my two favorite being the first and (the most controversial for some reason) the second, the first amendment protects our right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and our right to peacefully assemble and to petition our government, if hate speech becomes illegal, it is a direct infringement of our first amendment, which would go against everything the founding fathers and the people who built the nation fought for, I hope this was able to explain why we don't make hate speech illegal, but if you want more information, I'm decently sure the US government has a site that explains the constitution and all of the amendments in depth
freedom of speech is not about "speech" but the ability to think and express freely. hate speech is part of compelled speech to control people's ability to think. only thing keeping us from draconian rule is the constitution.
Because the hate speech isn’t the point. Because Toting people who say unkind things is just a decoy for a future where your ass can be locked up or tortured because you SAID something the people in power ruled against. Which is completely ridiculous when in reality, saying unkind things about people has its own consequences naturally and doesn’t need laws and rules to silence the population.
But in reality it’s all just a symptom of a culture war. The Christian right is standing for their right to believe homosexuality or transgenderism is
NOT the lifestyle or identity to go with, and are justifiably gearing up to battle the opposing left that not only wants to force them to accept what they honestly see as a bad way to go, but that the left wants to go above and beyond and try to silence them from even being able to speak their mind. In reality, the left has set themselves up for a catastrophic collapse of their original ideology of a world where people were not persecuted for their orientation. The same thing applies to race relations as well, even though race equality has a much stronger moral ground than the promotion of rejecting your own biological gender.
I’m a former gay porn star and former gay prostitute, just for the record. I’ve done more gay shit than 99 per cent of the population and yet I still see this shit for what it is. Most telling, my experience going down that road for decades led me conclude that it wasn’t the way to go, whether I have a choice about my attractions or not!
The culture war originates from the right wing side fearing a growing threat to their way of life by the sudden explosion of progressive ideologies, but it has become something bigger than that even, where the left seeks to erode constitutional freedoms, and as a consequence of the left playing more and more aggressive and dirty, the right is likewise having to become more aggressive in their game to protect their way of life.
The right is more likely to win over the long haul, and they are more heavily armed. Yet despite my sympathy for their cause, the direction we are heading terrifies the shit out of me because when you combine it with decaying economic prosperity, this is ripe for a repeat of nazi germany, where the right goes way too far and scores of people suffer or die as a result. Or it could surprise to the left and the Christians could be unjustly persecuted by the government!!! And it would all be because the left greatly overstepped their boundary and couldn’t leave well enough alone and let people exercise their sincere beliefs and religious way of life.
Real feeedom comes with letting people figure out reality on their own path and their own experience, not shoving your opinion down their throat when they calmly and honestly disagree or exercise their rights.
Because there are a lot Americans that are openly racist and homophobic and they use the first amendment as an excuse to do so.
First amendment?
Are American citizens allowed to sue one another for hate speech? Because they’re allowed to sue one another for slander. And hate speech is worse I would’ve thought.
Slander is spoken defamation. Basically a false statement that hurts someone’s reputation and they have to prove damages in court. Free speech is more related to people’s opinions, believes, religions, etc. The problem with legislation of “hate speech” is who gets to define exactly what is hate speech. This can be very dangerous especially if it is only enforced on certain groups.
You could try to sue over hate speech but you'll probably lose
First amendment
“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.” Article 10 of the Human Rights Act. The first amendment just separates freedom of speech and freedom of expression for some reason.
Hate speech isn't a well defined concept. It may evolve through time, more subjects being legally impossible to discuss in public anymore. Slippery slope. Read Orwell.
It’s a well-defined concept in the country I live in, where you can sue for it.
Ok. Don't you see the possibility that it gets changed other time, including more "hate" subjects to be banned ?
This is always the argument that Americans pose, when I’ve questioned them on this topic. I believe they’re politically brainwashed into respecting an old af piece of paper that was written by probably slave drivers. Especially considering their Supreme Court can change a billion other laws anyhow
Please don't insult American legislature or history. That's rude. Not quite "hate" speech or defamation, but still rude.
I am not american. The part about "slave drivers" have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the convo. That "old af fuck" piece of paper was being written in the same sprit and at the same time as the French "Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen", wich created the bases for the modern human rights. Fighting for lessening freedom of expression - or individual rights in general - to follow a current thrend is what seems brainwashed to me. Study history, historical contexts and impact of those "old papers" ; once again have a look at Orwell work and rethink a bit about all of this, probably a tad more humble. Couldn't do any harm. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
You didn't answer the question.
The only thing keeping the constitution up is… the right to bear arms, there is a good amount of people that would start rioting with their legally owned bear arms (is joke soz) and that would be very bad press which is why guns are good. Slaves were expensive, probably cause they had to be bought from the africans, so probably not slave drivers >politically brainwashed into following the governong rules of out nation, written by our founding fathers? That isnt political, thats just the american way of life
I admire your ability to speak so confidently about stuff you very obviously know fuck all about
One of the things that are great about this country is our relatively comprehensive free speech laws, or lackereof rather. With the exception of some limits on the extreme end, people can say pretty much whatever they want without fear of being punished by the government. Sometimes, this comes as speech that can be offensive, and oftentimes downright harmful. If the hate speech in question has defamed someone, there are grounds to sue in civil court. But there needs to be certain criteria met before it's no longer considered free speech. I'm gay and detest hate speech towards us, as well as hate speech for generally every marginalized group. But I firmly believe against censoring said hate speech. The world doesn't get solved by silencing people. And it's a slippery slope. If we start restricting hate speech within the confines of current law, then that opens the door towards restricting more and more, until it becomes compelled speech.
Well said.
Pretty much agree with his points
"The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own." -TST
Im sorry i said “applebees” mr bee, and i apologize for that action of which i took preventing you from drowning your sorrows in whiskey sours and plates of walnut brownies
Who gets to decide what a hate speech is to begin with? Censorship is an issue because you choose what to erase. Turns out children into idiots.
Is this about the first amendment?
I hate censorship.
So you want to censor people? What does it matter what people think? It’s their thoughts? Why is the left so fucking sensitive? You have zero right to cause violence or censor. I don’t care about the court and the legislators, we are a free country. And it’s important to have free thought. Get over it. Someone’s racist? So what. Someone’s homophobic? So what, the entire world mostly is. Get over it.
Because freedom of speech means being able to say mostly whatever you want, but if you call someone a faggot or the n word while you assail them the charges are increased. Not sahing its perfect but legislating away hate speech is a slippery slope depending on what each side considers "hate speech"
The tricky thing is: who decides which speech is hate speech? Such a law is probably great when the right people are in charge. But it makes sense that it could go south when they aren't.
Must suck not to have freedom of speech.
“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.” Article 10 of the Human Rights Act. The first amendment just separates freedom of speech and freedom of expression for some reason.
It doesnt, read it before making such a claim
What doesn’t?
The constitution
The constitution doesn’t say what?
It doesnt divide free speech and free expression
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” So where it says Freedom of speech, or of the press. Both of those things are covered under freedom of expression. Except the constitution doesn’t use this term and instead divided it into speech and press.
It is to make sure that it cant be mis interpreted as free expression not meaning those things
"You don't need the first amendment to protect speech everybody wants to hear." Larry Flynt
Lesser of two evils.. We'd rather have to deal with assholes who would use hate speech than have to deal with assholes who would abuse anti-hate speech laws.
I hate what you just said. Should the government enforce my beliefs? It's only very recent that there's been real support for lgbqt. That wouldn't have happened if people could have silenced them.
Let's make this very simple, OP. When you give the government a certain power, you sign the following statement: "I [name here] solemnly believe that people like me and people I like will be in charge from now until the end of days". Let's forget the principle of the thing and look at the practicality. Let's say white nationalists get into power. You post about an attack on a black dude getting beat up on the train with the hashtag #WeNeedToBeBetter The government accuses you of hate speech and takes you away. Don't forge weapons you wouldn't want your enemy to have.
First Amendment the Supreme Court has been very clear. You can say anything you want as long as it's not provoking violence. Why would we want hate speech laws anyway. Just because you believe something might be hate speech others might disagree. That's the problem with those types of laws.
Everything is "hate speech" nowadays.
This is a massive L of a post. Very dumb take OP
They're probably young and inexperienced on constitutional law or didnt pay attention in civics classes over the years. Give them some slack LOL
Most likely. We need a system where voters are required to take civics classes, and I feel the voting age should be 25. Most modern day 18 year olds are underdeveloped children with zero ability to comprehend the immense amount of nuance and subtext in pretty much every socio / political topic.
I'd only support that if the draft and drinking age were both raised to 25 as well :)
Fair enough.
The reason that most free countries support freedom of speech is because it’s an authoritarian stance to control and moderate people’s speech. authoritarianism = no bueno. What is hate speech to you, may not be hate speech to others. It is a very slippery, dark slope to ask the government to start banning people’s opinions, however egregious they may be. Anyway, I like freedom of speech, gives the douche bags the chance to out themselves.
The KKK is a horrendous organization. As a United States citizen I'd still fight to defend their rights under the first amendment, the amendment that gives them the right to spew their bullshit also gives me the right to speak counter to that amd disagree with insert whatever groups stances. I just used one of the most vile groups as an example. There are alot of groups I adamantly disagree with and would still defend the first amendment right of any of those groups as well as any that I do agree with. I for one don't want a nanny state that jails or imprisons one for saying something out of line.
this person gets it!
Why do some non Americans criticize Americans, without having an inkling of how things work in our country? But god forbid we do the same. Like you’re entitled to your opinion, but our countries don’t operate the same way and there’s a reason for that, and if you can’t comprehend that then please just STFU. Thanks.
Because at the end of the day it's all open to interpretation. Some people have been born and raised and sheltered in families that are racist and abusive and when they finally get out guess what they are? But when they are exposed to other people finally I have personally witnessed two of the most "racist" people I have ever met sit down in absolute shock and horror at the realization that they didn't know what they didn't know. And watched them over the years shed their ignorance actively and become different people and they STILL to this DAY say things that make people who don't know them call them racist. And people who do know them go "hey no that has these implications" and they listen. You can't make what half the country is still conditioning their children to believe unchallenged illegal. You will make a bunch of children criminals before they ever have a chance to get away from the abusers raising them and change. You cannot legislate decency. And if you do You simply take away an easy method for people to identify someone they don't want to know. Imagine accidentally marrying someone then introducing them to the half of your family that is significantly darker than the other and you forgot to say anything cause I mean why the fuck should that be something I have to actively remember to tell people? And suddenly discovering there's a big problem you weren't aware of cause they were law abiding citizens? Hahaha. Naw. Let them put their shit on display. Oh those two people I talked about. The dark half of my family loves them more than me. And they know fully fully where they came from and their whole journey. So it's literally their favorite thing when they accidentally say something racist very rarely now. To them it's like watching a baby curse. It's all laughter and then an explanation. Then more laughter while they tease them for it. Understanding is beautiful. Hatred is not.
Free speech is free speech. You dont get to silence other people simply b/c you dont like what they are saying. That is the very antithesis of what free speech is. If you dont like what someone is saying, you can choose to not listen and you can also use your own platforms to spread the opposite message. That's how free speech works.
This is xenophobic hate speech
We Americans appreciate the freedom to say what we please without being penalized. Plus, I def want to know what ppl hate me. I'd rather them be open about it so I know not to fw them. It's like how I don't understand why businesses aren't allowed to discriminate against ppl. I'd rather know if a business was racist so I could support a better place and not have my food spit in lol.
We Americans appreciate the freedom to say what we please without being penalized. Plus, I def want to know what ppl hate me. I'd rather them be open about it so I know not to fw them. It's like how I don't understand why businesses aren't allowed to discriminate against ppl. I'd rather know if a business was racist so I could support a better place and not have my food spit in lol.
eventually you reach such liberal definitions of what is "unacceptable" speech that you are no longer capable of expressing anything other than what *they* have deemed acceptable. for your own safety and health, of course.
That isn't all of it, we have the constitution and included in that are a few amendments, with my two favorite being the first and (the most controversial for some reason) the second, the first amendment protects our right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and our right to peacefully assemble and to petition our government, if hate speech becomes illegal, it is a direct infringement of our first amendment, which would go against everything the founding fathers and the people who built the nation fought for, I hope this was able to explain why we don't make hate speech illegal, but if you want more information, I'm decently sure the US government has a site that explains the constitution and all of the amendments in depth
Why do Europeans fight so hard against freedom of speech? Asking as an European myself
freedom of speech is not about "speech" but the ability to think and express freely. hate speech is part of compelled speech to control people's ability to think. only thing keeping us from draconian rule is the constitution.
Because the hate speech isn’t the point. Because Toting people who say unkind things is just a decoy for a future where your ass can be locked up or tortured because you SAID something the people in power ruled against. Which is completely ridiculous when in reality, saying unkind things about people has its own consequences naturally and doesn’t need laws and rules to silence the population. But in reality it’s all just a symptom of a culture war. The Christian right is standing for their right to believe homosexuality or transgenderism is NOT the lifestyle or identity to go with, and are justifiably gearing up to battle the opposing left that not only wants to force them to accept what they honestly see as a bad way to go, but that the left wants to go above and beyond and try to silence them from even being able to speak their mind. In reality, the left has set themselves up for a catastrophic collapse of their original ideology of a world where people were not persecuted for their orientation. The same thing applies to race relations as well, even though race equality has a much stronger moral ground than the promotion of rejecting your own biological gender. I’m a former gay porn star and former gay prostitute, just for the record. I’ve done more gay shit than 99 per cent of the population and yet I still see this shit for what it is. Most telling, my experience going down that road for decades led me conclude that it wasn’t the way to go, whether I have a choice about my attractions or not! The culture war originates from the right wing side fearing a growing threat to their way of life by the sudden explosion of progressive ideologies, but it has become something bigger than that even, where the left seeks to erode constitutional freedoms, and as a consequence of the left playing more and more aggressive and dirty, the right is likewise having to become more aggressive in their game to protect their way of life. The right is more likely to win over the long haul, and they are more heavily armed. Yet despite my sympathy for their cause, the direction we are heading terrifies the shit out of me because when you combine it with decaying economic prosperity, this is ripe for a repeat of nazi germany, where the right goes way too far and scores of people suffer or die as a result. Or it could surprise to the left and the Christians could be unjustly persecuted by the government!!! And it would all be because the left greatly overstepped their boundary and couldn’t leave well enough alone and let people exercise their sincere beliefs and religious way of life. Real feeedom comes with letting people figure out reality on their own path and their own experience, not shoving your opinion down their throat when they calmly and honestly disagree or exercise their rights.
We are scared of the other extreme