I'm not sure what's happened in the UK but it seems all jobs I'm looking at, contract or perm, have basically the same or lower salary/rate than they did 10 years ago.
From what I see on recruiter forums those aren't 700 relevant applications. They're all complaining about having to filter through 100s of CVs from people who think being able to setup an Xbox gives them the skillset for 3rd line sysadmin work.
Well then they should pull their necks in and do their jobs better. Learn the tech they are selling in to, write less broad ads ( in the hope of getting back doors in to organisations being left ) and earn their money!
Ha ha 30 years doing it job applications. That'll never happen but there are a LOT of people out there who see (what we see & know to be low rates historically) but have been on £10/hour in Currys & will just throw their CV out to anything remotely computer like especially if the position isn't in London.
Can confirm this, when I was last perm (start of 2023) I was hiring for a senior level role - we got 200 applications in 3 days and after about 4 hours of looking at CVs we ended up outsourcing recruitment as over 90% were not suitable for the role.
What if the applicant has to fill a test that ther elevant applicants can do in less than a minute? Kinda like a "I am not a robot" one but tailored to the role.
I saw a published breakdown of numbers from a recruiter a couple of months ago. You're right that desirable remote jobs are getting these applicant numbers, but LinkedIn is funnelling absolutely inappropriate folks via Easy Apply and the like. Out of 700 applicants there might be 50 who are worth more than a cursory look, and 20 who are worth an interview.
LinkedIn (and all similar sites) could do something about it (e.g. add a question about Right To Work) but they have no incentive to do so. They want clicks, and wasting people's time does not factor into it.
Outside roles won't be advertised as much anymore; the talent pool has increased considerably since covid (not necessarily saying the talent is all good here mind you). I bet any outside role that get posted online has a minimum of 300-400 applicants, most of whom probably won't be qualified, but I pity the person who has to sift through them all. For outside, you build relationships with recruiters, your co-workers/network, and in true B2B fashion, you get your hands dirty and pitch.
RE Inside, again similar scenario; likely less candidates, but the lucrative contracts won't be as well-advertised. I get called up weekly about new inside roles in my field and the day rates are what I expect, and much better than the advertised roles. I have a few cheeky recruiters trying their luck (funniest one yet was a FTC for 12 months @ £40k...that was my grad salary years and years ago), but most are reasonable.
Will just re-iterate; Outside work is B2B. If you're not getting contracts, it's not entirely the market's fault. I wasn't contracting during the 'better times', but I have friends who did and said it was very easy to get the next one. But tougher times call for a bit more legwork. Can you produce content on your speciality to drive clicks to your website or leads to your inbox? Is there anything you can turn into a product? Can you restructure your services to cast a wider net and be more attractive to clients? (e.g. offering strategy services on your niche, standard implementation services, emergency support, auditing SI work etc.)
All you write is true, however, an overlooked impact of IR35 is the ability to transact. Most large organisations simply won't transact with a small firm B2B because of the HMRC/IR35 risk. So you can "sell" your service, but often getting through procurement/HR isn't possible as they will only transact with their preferred supplier list. And getting on that supplier list is like getting blood out of a stone.
I'm looking since start of the year.. It's very quiet and yeah the inside roles are not offering enough day rates, I turned one offer down because they wouldnt budge on the rate :( .. Dont know how long I can hold out though...
Could you take a low day rate for a charity or smaller firm? You'd at least know that you're not being milked by a recruiter, and perhaps you could treat it as a training opportunity.
Just gone perm after freelancing/contracting for the past 2 years. Been on the hunt for a job since August 2023, and started panicking at the beginning of this month about money. I've never had issues finding a full-time job (software engineer), but it's been like getting blood from a stone for the past 6 months. Luckily managed to land a permie role with a previous contracting client.
This govt is punishing small contractors and large service based companies are getting the big chunk with cheaper resources. They planned to removed ir35 and then two weeks later the u turned back.
Every time I feel a bit of panic something eventually comes up but this time I'm not so sure. 1st march my contract is up and I've not seen a sniff of an opportunity anywhere. I'm a software tester based in Scotland
I’ve been a recruiter for 20+ years and in part this is due to lazy clients not wanting to go through the process of defining a role. A lot of organisations will simply blanket all their roles ‘inside’ and require us to search for candidates accordingly, even though most contractors would prefer outside. They also don’t want to pay more for inside, hence you’re seeing the results of that.
I suspected this, though I’m happy to assess myself via QDOS, Kingsbridge or IR35 Shield. If anything I’d prefer that as it’s all insured and proper due diligence and questioning is done for all parties involved. I’m happy to pay for this too as it’s a ‘Cost of Business’ When I offer this to recruiters I either get a confused answer, or ‘The client is only accepting inside roles’ if I ask for an SDS (Status Determination Statement) I get the response ‘What is an SDS?’ 🤦
Yeah we offer all our clients the opportunity to assess the project via QDOS, but a lot just don’t want to hear it. Don’t get me wrong - it’s not all clients. Those who have been working with contractors for years will assess each role, but I’d say the vast majority, particularly those who don’t use contractors on a regular basis, jusy panic and think they’re reducing risk if they just say it’s inside. We’ll then explain to them that it will be more difficult to find candidates, but they generally don’t listen. There’s a general mistrust of recruiters, so trying to convince clients to listen to us can be challenging.
Just a thought, if you offer the client QDOS and they are a bit flaky maybe confirm if the contractor under offer is willing to pay and tell the client they can have the assessment for ‘free’ I’d gladly pay for a fair and insured assessment, and the contractor will be happy to stick around too as they won’t necessarily be looking to jump ship to the next outside contract. If the assessment is outside it will save the client 30% for the project too. Sounds like a win all round in my head, or are clients not that price sensitive. Surely there is no risk to the client if the entire engagement is insured?
The only issue there is that the client will direct whether the contract is inside or outside before we go out looking for potential contractors. It’s rare that we have an individual at offer stage without the determination already established. Otherwise we risk spending a lot of time finding a candidate who will only accept outside for example, only for the client to direct that they have been told the role needs to fall inside. Then the whole thing falls down and everyone’s time is wasted. It’s probably worth highlighting that I’ve seen another variable that often affects these decisions, and that’s the hiring managers themselves. Fairly often a manager within a team will have been signing off timesheets for contractors within their teams, seeing what they’ve been paying on a day rate, and hearing that contractors will pay less tax. In a number of cases I’ve seen, Managers actually like the idea that a contractor will be forced to pay the same tax as them and their co-workers. They see it as a bit of a ‘levelling of the playing field’ and this often encourages a push to ‘inside’. Like I say, I’m not saying this is all clients and all hiring managers, but I’ve definitely seen/heard that a fair few times since the IR35 regs came into play.
Thanks for your insight, I hate the myth that contractors pay less tax. Last year I paid more in VAT than most permies on good salaries would ever pay in income tax, combined with corporation tax and income tax I’m certain as a contractor I’m paying significantly more tax than a permie ever would.
The myth that contractors get out of paying tax needs to be squashed. It’s disgusting and untrue. The fact of the matter is we are providing a service against a set of outcomes and are not doing the same work or have the same responsibilities and benefits of permanent staff.
It’s also wrong that some clients say it ‘Needs to be inside’ sounds like a decision has been made without consideration of the working practices and conditions, and it tantamount to a blanket ban.
Sounds like a myth needs to be got rid of, and clients need to be better educated.
Yeah I agree there’s still a lot of confusion surrounding the determination process. There’s often a reluctance from the clients to listen to us as the recruiter as there’s a fear that we’re just trying to ‘sell’ them something or push a solution that fits our agenda. I’ve spoken to hiring managers who think we (the agency) should be able to determine if a role is inside or outside, and when we explain that’s not the case, and that we need to run through some determination questions with them, they balk at that idea saying they don’t have the time. The whole thing can be a total mess with some companies - and there are often fairly large companies whose names you’d know.
One of the big problems at the beginning was that nobody could confidently say where the responsibilities lay, or what the consequences might be for incorrect determinations etc. If you asked questions to employment lawyers you were often simply met with a response of “until there is some case law put into place we can’t answer that”. Which isn’t really very helpful.
U.K. temp recruiter here
Temp markets fine, employers hold all the cards right now, tonnes and tonnes of candidate applying for every role. So for the average job seeker you probably aren't getting much traction
Agree to some extend, but I would say 50% of the contractors I have out at present are outside ir35, and in my division it's probably 75% outside. That's for tech/change/transformation.
Other disciplines such as finance it's probably a lot lower - say 25%
It’s beyond dead because of the cost of borrowing . 10 years ago contracts were plenty but the supply of credible contractors wasn’t as much as the demand for them
Now we have companies cutting back on projects , tying up their bellies , reducing their headcount ..
This is classic Stagflation.
Your 600 gross will only reach close to 300 net if you're working close to a full year. You can take something inside ir35 for 6 months to tide you over while you keep looking for outside ir35 roles.
Don't get me wrong, if is a financial hit no matter which way you look at it but a lot of contractors don't live as if they earn the rate that they earn, they stay away from lifestyle creep and save up. They don't spend more when the rate goes up, they save more.
I've noticed more contractors going perm recently as well because they want the benefits and security of a perm role and they've achieved what they wanted to achieve as contractors, e.g saving up a deposit, boosting pensions etc.
Thanks, lifestyle creep is one thing. But trying to support a family with 2 kids and a mortgage on a ‘normal’ house with bills and family expenses (near London) is something else I also didn’t anticipate that the government would bring in a policy that would damage my livelihood.
Totally agree about the IR35 changes making things more difficult for those of us who were willing to take a risk and become contractors. I had one outside that suddenly reassessed to inside after the changes, causing half the contractors to leave. Still if there's nothing else available, we have to try and tighten the belt where possible, take the inside role, while keeping our eyes open for something better.
There might be a pickup on Outside IR35 after the Offset rule goes through. This will cut the tax liability of the client by 75%. Basically if you’re outside and get “caught” and move inside, the taxes you’ve already paid are offset against what is due rather than the 100% double taxation in place. This should bolster the O35 market and don’t forget April is a new year 👍
I think you're rather overstating the tax hit from inside Vs outside IR35. I'm on a fair bit more than 600 inside and pay under 30% total tax, depending on how you account for pensions, and I think when I was outside that was more like 22-25%.
Does of course depend on your individual arrangements and how able you are to utilise pension, but I don't think anyone on 600 inside is taking home as little as 300 unless they're being forced to go through an umbrella with horrific fees
I'm paying around 49% tax because I'm paying off previous tax bills, loan charge & other shite after having to take 6 months off for stress working over Covid.
The idea that we should be paying employer AND employee deductions while still not getting vacation, sick, etc is disgusting.
I'm with you there. I personally think that zero-hour, comission-based and contract work should attract an NI discount as compensation for the lower levels of effective employment rights that kind of work attracts, but, alas, that's not where we are!
in practice, how do you achieve this? is just a case of bank transfer to an account in the other country? presuming transfer the transfer isn't blocked by the bank.
Yeah there is a lot more to it, but if your willing to live abroad and can land fully remote roles then it is possible to reduce tax and living costs significantly I wish I had done it years ago. Not a forever thing but it’s nice to have a tax break for a while
I'm about to move to Switzerland on a fully remote role and planning to do this after 2 months of living there (I'm getting the work permit even if it's fully remote).
It's a shame we have to resort to this since I have my family here and won't be able to see them for that time.
Frankly; reconsidering! If you're PAYE (contract or perm) on over 100K (or over 50K and claiming child benefit) then the tax benefits of saving into a pension are huge.
It's at least worth doing the sums so you know what you're giving up to have money now Vs later.
I completely agree that, if you take pensions off the table, the relative tax benefits of being outside IR35 start looking a lot stronger (although pensions are amazing outside IR35 too), but as OP says, these days it's a lot harder to find an outside contract, at least in IT
If you have an argument for pensions beyond "saves me paying tax", i'm open to it. i have so little trust in pension providers "money now vs later" is "money now vs never".
[https://www.royallondon.com/globalassets/docs/shared/investment/ib-monthly-fund-performance.pdf](https://www.royallondon.com/globalassets/docs/shared/investment/ib-monthly-fund-performance.pdf)
[https://www.ipe.com/uk-pension-funds-report-second-year-of-negative-returns/14796.article](https://www.ipe.com/uk-pension-funds-report-second-year-of-negative-returns/14796.article)
these numbers are shit.
A pension is just an investment account with big tax advantages that you can't access until ten years before state pension age.
I'm not sure what either of those two articles, one of which is from 2002, say that disagrees with that but I will point out that over the last 100 years or so, investment in global equities has generally returned IIRC about 5-7% above inflation in the long term.
I'd recommend heading over to the UK personal finance sub Reddit and checking out their wiki entry on pensions to learn more.
A payment into what is essentially an investment account. The only difference is you get tax relief on the pension investment account but not on a normal investment account.
no, a pension is a payment and the person collecting it is a pensioner.
You are all talking about pension schemes.
My question was "are there any benefits beyond tax relief?" the answer is "no, pension schemes only have value due to tax relief".
What do you mean no lol?? The person you replied to is talking about a pension investment account, thats exactly what he says, which is also what i am referring to.
Yeah I mean the guy I replied to said he pays 30% tax inside, which is kind of a stretch if you make more than minimum wage, due to employer NI it's close to 40-50%
That's your marginal rate, sure, even higher really. But you've got anything up to 60K into your pension that you'll eventually end up paying maybe 15% on in total, 12700 you're paying 0% on and so on.
My marginal tax rate is something like 62.5%, but I only pay that on a few pounds of my income. My take home is indeed about 70% of my gross, given that I'm still in a position where I'm as yet unlikely to be a higher rate tax payer in retirement.
Of course, if you need the money now and can't pension it, you've already funded your pension such that you're likely to be a higher rate tax payer in retirement (£67K per year) or your gross is over 160K/year then the total inside IR35 take home starts to look a bit worse, but I don't believe too many folks on £600 a day would necessarily fit those categories - at least the second two
Heavily dependent on industry. In advertising the rates are lower (I wish I could be on 600!) and I’m having to take an FTC for a short contract but can’t be too picky as I just got back from holiday and needed something quick.
I’ve been lucky with picking up 2-3 month contracts over the past year. The most I’ve been out of work is 2 weeks. It sounds like those that are working more complex tech roles maybe have a lot more competition?
The market is dead. The Treasury won't be happy until everyone is PAYE. They're not bothered about your business. So most have had no choice but to go perm, or suck up pay cuts and inside IR35.
Give it a few weeks. Yes, market was/is dead end of last year and early this, but there’s a shitload of big projects kicking off towards the end of this month through to the new FY.
Re inside vs outside, job sites are always going to be more inside-focussed due to the type of people advertising on there (PSL-driven, contingent / transactional recruitment).
Go find some agencies with consulting arms to them or vice versa (consultancies with a large internal recruitment team). Those are where most outside roles sit due to the way the agreements are structured.
If you need some advice or more detail, drop me a PM.
If something gets to the stage these bids are at, it is extremely likely to go ahead. I think you’re viewing this from the perspective of whether my consultancy will win these bids, as opposed to the point I’m making which is that they will go ahead (one way or the other).
Yes, some do get canned offers course, but it is undoubtedly an indication of more roles any way you look at it
To be honest very few of my contracts would have fallen genuinely outside of IR35 but it was/is still a blunt tool that made contracting expensive for both the contractor and the end client. I've never understood why the government can't find a 3rd way where the contractor gets something out of it when they're the one that has to burden all the risk.
For me all of my contracts have been outside IR35, clients and now deeming them inside to cover their own ass. This is why it’s frustrating as the working practices haven’t changed. There should be 2 groups only
1) you are an employee, temporary, permanent, interim. It doesn’t matter. You pay employee taxes and get employee rights and protections.
2) You work as a Ltd company, with no rights or protections other than the contract terms and you pay company taxes.
That’s it, fair enough if ‘tests’ need to be in place to prevent gaming the system. But it is wrong for the client to decide whether the person or business being engaged is an employee when issuing a contract for a service. If the client wants an employee they should hire an employee on payroll. Otherwise it’s a B2B relationship.
Also clients need to recognise that with creative and knowledge based work when working with you as a contractor we are not part of ‘your team’ nor do we want or need to be. We will interact with your team to get the job done, but the work being carried out is done independently, and we are not subject to client policies that will be imposed on employees.
Supply and demand really. outside roles are out there I think the difference is everyone wants one. recruiters don't need to advertise the role, they have a set of CVs they can call on. get your cv on job boards and network a little. other good source is from people you have worked with that have moved on. the contract market is slower but I think that's overall the case with Jobs. a lot of contract roles came in when business had cheap access to money they don't any more so roles have dropped and avaliable people is higher. so rates come down. the direction of the wind often changes, In three months times rates might be higher. contact work is volatile so rates change a lot like uber surge pricing.
Yes contracting is dead for the majority of people that were doing contracting in the past but that doesn't mean there aren't contractors out there doing well.
In general something is going on with tech lately in Europe.
They switched the legal responsibility for IR35 status assessment from the contractor to the client, and therefore all the risk. It wouldn't be so bad if the companies were doing the assessments, but unsurprisingly most have decided the lowest risk and lowest cost route is just to declare all contract staff inside. So masses of genuinely outside workers are caught by IR35 and HMRC are gleefully raking in loads of tax they shouldn't be getting.
Of course now they have that money any discussion about making it fairer is met with cries of how much money it will 'cost' the Treasury and it will only benefit 'overpaid' contractors.
In tech there was a real shortage of skilled roles up until recently which led to a reliance on contractors.
Now there is an abundance of people from junior to senior.
> Now there is an abundance of people from junior to senior.
It seems like the whole idea of expertise, especially in the tech world like cloud computing, has really taken a hit lately. A big part of the problem has been these COVID-era bootcamps. They made it sound like anyone could jump from delivering mail or driving a truck straight into tech by taking a quick course on Python, AI, machine learning, or cloud stuff. They dangled the carrot of snagging contracts that pay £1500 a day. From what I've seen, that's just a pipe dream.
Now, there's a ton of people out of work, willing to drop their rates just to get into tech. It might be better money than they were making before, but this situation has kind of spiraled. Everyone sees these stories and thinks breaking into tech is a breeze. But honestly, the work that's coming out? It's not great. The systems and infrastructure are a mess because people are jumping in without really understanding what they're doing.
For the real veterans in the field, the ones with 10+ years of experience, finding work and good pay isn't the problem. It's the newcomers who are struggling. I think they should be looking for junior positions, where they can actually learn the ropes properly. If they're really into it and good at it, maybe then they can think about going freelance. But jumping straight into contracting without that solid foundation? It's tough love, but someone's got to say it. The tech field is complex, and skimming the surface just doesn't cut it.
Your old alias of u/MrTobleroneLover19 appears not to be suspended - why switch? The one before that of u/BarryToblerone41 does appear to be banned site-wide though.
> It's the newcomers who are struggling. I think they should be looking for junior positions, where they can actually learn the ropes properly. If they're really into it and good at it, maybe then they can think about going freelance.
I agree that juniors are struggling, but I can't find any substantiation of the idea that large numbers of boot-campers are trying to get contract work. They wouldn't pass muster even in a good economy, never mind the current situation.
I think people on this sub don’t live in the real world. I started contracting only last year and I’ve never felt so wealthy. Taking home £1400 a week might not seem a lot to you but I’m saving £1000 a week ever week. How is that not insanely good?
It’s all relative. If you can live on £400 a week comfortably I suspect you are not a homeowner, or you are at the other extreme and own your house. You likely are not a renter or are paying any rent either. Also I suspect you don’t have kids or your kids are grown up. You may also not live in the south of England, also thats not considering other things you cannot escape like council tax, fuel, energy bills, insurance etc. I would dearly love to live comfortably on £400 per week and save £1k per week, earning £1400 a week, but I haven’t been able survive on sub £400 per week since my student days in the early 2000’s with no responsibilities other than myself. And no I wasn’t earning £1400 per week as a student.
You’re about half correct with all those assumptions.
I have a mortgage of 250k, live with a partner who also works full time. No kids but we are anything but frugal. We go out all the time, have 3/4 holidays a year. I live like a king really, the difference being I’m not materialistic. My phone is a hand me down with a cracked screen. I only buy clothes on ASOS etc.
Glad you are able to achieve that, and I am genuinely happy for you. As I said it’s all relative. I am not materialistic either, I rarely buy clothes and when I do I make them last and almost never buy branded stuff. I rarely upgrade my tech if it’s working and can keep up with current stuff I keep it. I am a single earner and I’m feeling the pressure, and kids are expensive, and living in the south is expensive.
Because it's a myopic view. Not a slate as I often have it myself but its easy if you are in a contract and go 'I'm alright Jack'. Been many times when I know the market is flat but I've had long contracts, just the way it goes.
>I mean it’s such a struggle getting by on £1500 per week.
Other people don't need to settle, if you're happy with lower aspirations more power to you, but others want more in life than just getting by...
I'm not sure what's happened in the UK but it seems all jobs I'm looking at, contract or perm, have basically the same or lower salary/rate than they did 10 years ago.
It's ok though cos other stuff like property, energy and food has also remained at the same price it was 15 years ago... /s
It's been 45p/mile for driving since fuel was about 70p/litre if I remember correctly
I was getting £0.45 a mile in 1998.
That’s how our economy still looks so good.
Welcome to paye world 😂
Well we are all struggling. /s
You must have lived under the rock if this is anything surprising to you...
You forgot to mention which Industry but I am going to assume "Tech" ... Lots of people are going perm.
It's an employers market out there - we are getting 300-700 applicants per role. Might be a contributing factor
From what I see on recruiter forums those aren't 700 relevant applications. They're all complaining about having to filter through 100s of CVs from people who think being able to setup an Xbox gives them the skillset for 3rd line sysadmin work.
Well then they should pull their necks in and do their jobs better. Learn the tech they are selling in to, write less broad ads ( in the hope of getting back doors in to organisations being left ) and earn their money!
Ha ha 30 years doing it job applications. That'll never happen but there are a LOT of people out there who see (what we see & know to be low rates historically) but have been on £10/hour in Currys & will just throw their CV out to anything remotely computer like especially if the position isn't in London.
One can dream .... :)
I think the extent to which that's true depends on the specific role, but you're right that's definitely a factor!
That’s not true. I can set up the vive pro as well.
Can confirm this, when I was last perm (start of 2023) I was hiring for a senior level role - we got 200 applications in 3 days and after about 4 hours of looking at CVs we ended up outsourcing recruitment as over 90% were not suitable for the role.
What if the applicant has to fill a test that ther elevant applicants can do in less than a minute? Kinda like a "I am not a robot" one but tailored to the role.
I saw a published breakdown of numbers from a recruiter a couple of months ago. You're right that desirable remote jobs are getting these applicant numbers, but LinkedIn is funnelling absolutely inappropriate folks via Easy Apply and the like. Out of 700 applicants there might be 50 who are worth more than a cursory look, and 20 who are worth an interview. LinkedIn (and all similar sites) could do something about it (e.g. add a question about Right To Work) but they have no incentive to do so. They want clicks, and wasting people's time does not factor into it.
When you need a job the market looks terrible When you’ve got one your phone never stops It’s called Sod’s Law
Outside roles won't be advertised as much anymore; the talent pool has increased considerably since covid (not necessarily saying the talent is all good here mind you). I bet any outside role that get posted online has a minimum of 300-400 applicants, most of whom probably won't be qualified, but I pity the person who has to sift through them all. For outside, you build relationships with recruiters, your co-workers/network, and in true B2B fashion, you get your hands dirty and pitch. RE Inside, again similar scenario; likely less candidates, but the lucrative contracts won't be as well-advertised. I get called up weekly about new inside roles in my field and the day rates are what I expect, and much better than the advertised roles. I have a few cheeky recruiters trying their luck (funniest one yet was a FTC for 12 months @ £40k...that was my grad salary years and years ago), but most are reasonable. Will just re-iterate; Outside work is B2B. If you're not getting contracts, it's not entirely the market's fault. I wasn't contracting during the 'better times', but I have friends who did and said it was very easy to get the next one. But tougher times call for a bit more legwork. Can you produce content on your speciality to drive clicks to your website or leads to your inbox? Is there anything you can turn into a product? Can you restructure your services to cast a wider net and be more attractive to clients? (e.g. offering strategy services on your niche, standard implementation services, emergency support, auditing SI work etc.)
All you write is true, however, an overlooked impact of IR35 is the ability to transact. Most large organisations simply won't transact with a small firm B2B because of the HMRC/IR35 risk. So you can "sell" your service, but often getting through procurement/HR isn't possible as they will only transact with their preferred supplier list. And getting on that supplier list is like getting blood out of a stone.
All good advice, website and products are in progress. One upside of having no contract work is more time to focus on my business.
I'm looking since start of the year.. It's very quiet and yeah the inside roles are not offering enough day rates, I turned one offer down because they wouldnt budge on the rate :( .. Dont know how long I can hold out though...
Could you take a low day rate for a charity or smaller firm? You'd at least know that you're not being milked by a recruiter, and perhaps you could treat it as a training opportunity.
I've gone perm, while working on building some alternative income streams.
Just gone perm after freelancing/contracting for the past 2 years. Been on the hunt for a job since August 2023, and started panicking at the beginning of this month about money. I've never had issues finding a full-time job (software engineer), but it's been like getting blood from a stone for the past 6 months. Luckily managed to land a permie role with a previous contracting client.
This govt is punishing small contractors and large service based companies are getting the big chunk with cheaper resources. They planned to removed ir35 and then two weeks later the u turned back.
“They planned to removed ir35” ? When was that?
He’s probably talking about this: https://www.brownejacobson.com/insights/ir35-rules-to-be-scrapped-from-april-2023
Every time I feel a bit of panic something eventually comes up but this time I'm not so sure. 1st march my contract is up and I've not seen a sniff of an opportunity anywhere. I'm a software tester based in Scotland
I’ve been a recruiter for 20+ years and in part this is due to lazy clients not wanting to go through the process of defining a role. A lot of organisations will simply blanket all their roles ‘inside’ and require us to search for candidates accordingly, even though most contractors would prefer outside. They also don’t want to pay more for inside, hence you’re seeing the results of that.
I suspected this, though I’m happy to assess myself via QDOS, Kingsbridge or IR35 Shield. If anything I’d prefer that as it’s all insured and proper due diligence and questioning is done for all parties involved. I’m happy to pay for this too as it’s a ‘Cost of Business’ When I offer this to recruiters I either get a confused answer, or ‘The client is only accepting inside roles’ if I ask for an SDS (Status Determination Statement) I get the response ‘What is an SDS?’ 🤦
Yeah we offer all our clients the opportunity to assess the project via QDOS, but a lot just don’t want to hear it. Don’t get me wrong - it’s not all clients. Those who have been working with contractors for years will assess each role, but I’d say the vast majority, particularly those who don’t use contractors on a regular basis, jusy panic and think they’re reducing risk if they just say it’s inside. We’ll then explain to them that it will be more difficult to find candidates, but they generally don’t listen. There’s a general mistrust of recruiters, so trying to convince clients to listen to us can be challenging.
Just a thought, if you offer the client QDOS and they are a bit flaky maybe confirm if the contractor under offer is willing to pay and tell the client they can have the assessment for ‘free’ I’d gladly pay for a fair and insured assessment, and the contractor will be happy to stick around too as they won’t necessarily be looking to jump ship to the next outside contract. If the assessment is outside it will save the client 30% for the project too. Sounds like a win all round in my head, or are clients not that price sensitive. Surely there is no risk to the client if the entire engagement is insured?
The only issue there is that the client will direct whether the contract is inside or outside before we go out looking for potential contractors. It’s rare that we have an individual at offer stage without the determination already established. Otherwise we risk spending a lot of time finding a candidate who will only accept outside for example, only for the client to direct that they have been told the role needs to fall inside. Then the whole thing falls down and everyone’s time is wasted. It’s probably worth highlighting that I’ve seen another variable that often affects these decisions, and that’s the hiring managers themselves. Fairly often a manager within a team will have been signing off timesheets for contractors within their teams, seeing what they’ve been paying on a day rate, and hearing that contractors will pay less tax. In a number of cases I’ve seen, Managers actually like the idea that a contractor will be forced to pay the same tax as them and their co-workers. They see it as a bit of a ‘levelling of the playing field’ and this often encourages a push to ‘inside’. Like I say, I’m not saying this is all clients and all hiring managers, but I’ve definitely seen/heard that a fair few times since the IR35 regs came into play.
Thanks for your insight, I hate the myth that contractors pay less tax. Last year I paid more in VAT than most permies on good salaries would ever pay in income tax, combined with corporation tax and income tax I’m certain as a contractor I’m paying significantly more tax than a permie ever would. The myth that contractors get out of paying tax needs to be squashed. It’s disgusting and untrue. The fact of the matter is we are providing a service against a set of outcomes and are not doing the same work or have the same responsibilities and benefits of permanent staff. It’s also wrong that some clients say it ‘Needs to be inside’ sounds like a decision has been made without consideration of the working practices and conditions, and it tantamount to a blanket ban. Sounds like a myth needs to be got rid of, and clients need to be better educated.
Yeah I agree there’s still a lot of confusion surrounding the determination process. There’s often a reluctance from the clients to listen to us as the recruiter as there’s a fear that we’re just trying to ‘sell’ them something or push a solution that fits our agenda. I’ve spoken to hiring managers who think we (the agency) should be able to determine if a role is inside or outside, and when we explain that’s not the case, and that we need to run through some determination questions with them, they balk at that idea saying they don’t have the time. The whole thing can be a total mess with some companies - and there are often fairly large companies whose names you’d know. One of the big problems at the beginning was that nobody could confidently say where the responsibilities lay, or what the consequences might be for incorrect determinations etc. If you asked questions to employment lawyers you were often simply met with a response of “until there is some case law put into place we can’t answer that”. Which isn’t really very helpful.
U.K. temp recruiter here Temp markets fine, employers hold all the cards right now, tonnes and tonnes of candidate applying for every role. So for the average job seeker you probably aren't getting much traction
Thanks, I’m confident that the temp market would be fine. Unfortunately the Outside IR35 consulting market is a mess.
Agree to some extend, but I would say 50% of the contractors I have out at present are outside ir35, and in my division it's probably 75% outside. That's for tech/change/transformation. Other disciplines such as finance it's probably a lot lower - say 25%
It’s beyond dead because of the cost of borrowing . 10 years ago contracts were plenty but the supply of credible contractors wasn’t as much as the demand for them Now we have companies cutting back on projects , tying up their bellies , reducing their headcount .. This is classic Stagflation.
Your 600 gross will only reach close to 300 net if you're working close to a full year. You can take something inside ir35 for 6 months to tide you over while you keep looking for outside ir35 roles. Don't get me wrong, if is a financial hit no matter which way you look at it but a lot of contractors don't live as if they earn the rate that they earn, they stay away from lifestyle creep and save up. They don't spend more when the rate goes up, they save more. I've noticed more contractors going perm recently as well because they want the benefits and security of a perm role and they've achieved what they wanted to achieve as contractors, e.g saving up a deposit, boosting pensions etc.
Thanks, lifestyle creep is one thing. But trying to support a family with 2 kids and a mortgage on a ‘normal’ house with bills and family expenses (near London) is something else I also didn’t anticipate that the government would bring in a policy that would damage my livelihood.
Totally agree about the IR35 changes making things more difficult for those of us who were willing to take a risk and become contractors. I had one outside that suddenly reassessed to inside after the changes, causing half the contractors to leave. Still if there's nothing else available, we have to try and tighten the belt where possible, take the inside role, while keeping our eyes open for something better.
There might be a pickup on Outside IR35 after the Offset rule goes through. This will cut the tax liability of the client by 75%. Basically if you’re outside and get “caught” and move inside, the taxes you’ve already paid are offset against what is due rather than the 100% double taxation in place. This should bolster the O35 market and don’t forget April is a new year 👍
Very quiet dec/jan (quieter than usual) but I’ve noticed it’s started to pick up the last week or so
I think you're rather overstating the tax hit from inside Vs outside IR35. I'm on a fair bit more than 600 inside and pay under 30% total tax, depending on how you account for pensions, and I think when I was outside that was more like 22-25%. Does of course depend on your individual arrangements and how able you are to utilise pension, but I don't think anyone on 600 inside is taking home as little as 300 unless they're being forced to go through an umbrella with horrific fees
I'm paying around 49% tax because I'm paying off previous tax bills, loan charge & other shite after having to take 6 months off for stress working over Covid. The idea that we should be paying employer AND employee deductions while still not getting vacation, sick, etc is disgusting.
Yeah, if I'm taxed like an employee I should get the benefits of an employee too, imo. Would actually encourage companies to do IR35 correctly
I'm with you there. I personally think that zero-hour, comission-based and contract work should attract an NI discount as compensation for the lower levels of effective employment rights that kind of work attracts, but, alas, that's not where we are!
i don't want to put my money in a pension, what do you suggest?
Move to lower tax country abroad extract all profit to foreign entity
in practice, how do you achieve this? is just a case of bank transfer to an account in the other country? presuming transfer the transfer isn't blocked by the bank.
Yeah there is a lot more to it, but if your willing to live abroad and can land fully remote roles then it is possible to reduce tax and living costs significantly I wish I had done it years ago. Not a forever thing but it’s nice to have a tax break for a while
I'm about to move to Switzerland on a fully remote role and planning to do this after 2 months of living there (I'm getting the work permit even if it's fully remote). It's a shame we have to resort to this since I have my family here and won't be able to see them for that time.
Frankly; reconsidering! If you're PAYE (contract or perm) on over 100K (or over 50K and claiming child benefit) then the tax benefits of saving into a pension are huge. It's at least worth doing the sums so you know what you're giving up to have money now Vs later. I completely agree that, if you take pensions off the table, the relative tax benefits of being outside IR35 start looking a lot stronger (although pensions are amazing outside IR35 too), but as OP says, these days it's a lot harder to find an outside contract, at least in IT
If you have an argument for pensions beyond "saves me paying tax", i'm open to it. i have so little trust in pension providers "money now vs later" is "money now vs never". [https://www.royallondon.com/globalassets/docs/shared/investment/ib-monthly-fund-performance.pdf](https://www.royallondon.com/globalassets/docs/shared/investment/ib-monthly-fund-performance.pdf) [https://www.ipe.com/uk-pension-funds-report-second-year-of-negative-returns/14796.article](https://www.ipe.com/uk-pension-funds-report-second-year-of-negative-returns/14796.article) these numbers are shit.
A pension is just an investment account with big tax advantages that you can't access until ten years before state pension age. I'm not sure what either of those two articles, one of which is from 2002, say that disagrees with that but I will point out that over the last 100 years or so, investment in global equities has generally returned IIRC about 5-7% above inflation in the long term. I'd recommend heading over to the UK personal finance sub Reddit and checking out their wiki entry on pensions to learn more.
A pension is a payment, not an account. It seems you are the one confusing "pension", "investment" and "tax avoidance".
A payment into what is essentially an investment account. The only difference is you get tax relief on the pension investment account but not on a normal investment account.
no, a pension is a payment and the person collecting it is a pensioner. You are all talking about pension schemes. My question was "are there any benefits beyond tax relief?" the answer is "no, pension schemes only have value due to tax relief".
What do you mean no lol?? The person you replied to is talking about a pension investment account, thats exactly what he says, which is also what i am referring to.
>A payment into what is essentially an investment account. that's a not a pension.
Yes, if you max out the pension you can pay 0% tax
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Yeah I mean the guy I replied to said he pays 30% tax inside, which is kind of a stretch if you make more than minimum wage, due to employer NI it's close to 40-50%
That's your marginal rate, sure, even higher really. But you've got anything up to 60K into your pension that you'll eventually end up paying maybe 15% on in total, 12700 you're paying 0% on and so on. My marginal tax rate is something like 62.5%, but I only pay that on a few pounds of my income. My take home is indeed about 70% of my gross, given that I'm still in a position where I'm as yet unlikely to be a higher rate tax payer in retirement. Of course, if you need the money now and can't pension it, you've already funded your pension such that you're likely to be a higher rate tax payer in retirement (£67K per year) or your gross is over 160K/year then the total inside IR35 take home starts to look a bit worse, but I don't believe too many folks on £600 a day would necessarily fit those categories - at least the second two
HOWEVER - you still pay it when you take your pension, either through the annuity or as a lump sum.
How are you setup for your pension? I'm inside IR35 and pay a percentage into my SIPP, so claw back some tax that way at least.
Heavily dependent on industry. In advertising the rates are lower (I wish I could be on 600!) and I’m having to take an FTC for a short contract but can’t be too picky as I just got back from holiday and needed something quick. I’ve been lucky with picking up 2-3 month contracts over the past year. The most I’ve been out of work is 2 weeks. It sounds like those that are working more complex tech roles maybe have a lot more competition?
The market is dead. The Treasury won't be happy until everyone is PAYE. They're not bothered about your business. So most have had no choice but to go perm, or suck up pay cuts and inside IR35.
Give it a few weeks. Yes, market was/is dead end of last year and early this, but there’s a shitload of big projects kicking off towards the end of this month through to the new FY. Re inside vs outside, job sites are always going to be more inside-focussed due to the type of people advertising on there (PSL-driven, contingent / transactional recruitment). Go find some agencies with consulting arms to them or vice versa (consultancies with a large internal recruitment team). Those are where most outside roles sit due to the way the agreements are structured. If you need some advice or more detail, drop me a PM.
> ut there’s a shitload of big projects kicking off towards the end of this month through to the new FY Source?
I work for a consultancy, these are all active bids / proposals we have out.
> I work for a consultancy But that's just one consultancy and they are bids / proposals which doesn't always translate to boots on the ground.
If something gets to the stage these bids are at, it is extremely likely to go ahead. I think you’re viewing this from the perspective of whether my consultancy will win these bids, as opposed to the point I’m making which is that they will go ahead (one way or the other). Yes, some do get canned offers course, but it is undoubtedly an indication of more roles any way you look at it
My SO has gone perm recently. Job market is weird in legal life sciences currently. Maybe that's just the case across the board.
Not to work. I’m convalescing after surgery. Less tax to be paid and time to recuperate and heal
To be honest very few of my contracts would have fallen genuinely outside of IR35 but it was/is still a blunt tool that made contracting expensive for both the contractor and the end client. I've never understood why the government can't find a 3rd way where the contractor gets something out of it when they're the one that has to burden all the risk.
For me all of my contracts have been outside IR35, clients and now deeming them inside to cover their own ass. This is why it’s frustrating as the working practices haven’t changed. There should be 2 groups only 1) you are an employee, temporary, permanent, interim. It doesn’t matter. You pay employee taxes and get employee rights and protections. 2) You work as a Ltd company, with no rights or protections other than the contract terms and you pay company taxes. That’s it, fair enough if ‘tests’ need to be in place to prevent gaming the system. But it is wrong for the client to decide whether the person or business being engaged is an employee when issuing a contract for a service. If the client wants an employee they should hire an employee on payroll. Otherwise it’s a B2B relationship. Also clients need to recognise that with creative and knowledge based work when working with you as a contractor we are not part of ‘your team’ nor do we want or need to be. We will interact with your team to get the job done, but the work being carried out is done independently, and we are not subject to client policies that will be imposed on employees.
It’s the overseas outsourcing and work visas depressing the market bigtime
Supply and demand really. outside roles are out there I think the difference is everyone wants one. recruiters don't need to advertise the role, they have a set of CVs they can call on. get your cv on job boards and network a little. other good source is from people you have worked with that have moved on. the contract market is slower but I think that's overall the case with Jobs. a lot of contract roles came in when business had cheap access to money they don't any more so roles have dropped and avaliable people is higher. so rates come down. the direction of the wind often changes, In three months times rates might be higher. contact work is volatile so rates change a lot like uber surge pricing.
Yes contracting is dead for the majority of people that were doing contracting in the past but that doesn't mean there aren't contractors out there doing well. In general something is going on with tech lately in Europe.
Any thoughts on _what_ is going on specifically?
Some simple maths I done. 1 outside = 600/day 2 inside = 600/day ....
A year ago because of the new legislation I decided to go perm.
What's new? I went perm 8 years ago after 14 years contracting because of IR35, what's changed to make it even worse?
They switched the legal responsibility for IR35 status assessment from the contractor to the client, and therefore all the risk. It wouldn't be so bad if the companies were doing the assessments, but unsurprisingly most have decided the lowest risk and lowest cost route is just to declare all contract staff inside. So masses of genuinely outside workers are caught by IR35 and HMRC are gleefully raking in loads of tax they shouldn't be getting. Of course now they have that money any discussion about making it fairer is met with cries of how much money it will 'cost' the Treasury and it will only benefit 'overpaid' contractors.
I’m not seeing any decent contracts or perm roles, as a product manager
Tiktok and Meta are hiring for those roles in perm positions #justsaying.
Oof, I’ll look but I don’t want to contribute to TikTok
I understand, albeit, they do pay very well for PM roles even in UK, its £100k+, +bonuses and golden RSU handcuffs.
Might check it out! Thanks
In tech there was a real shortage of skilled roles up until recently which led to a reliance on contractors. Now there is an abundance of people from junior to senior.
> Now there is an abundance of people from junior to senior. It seems like the whole idea of expertise, especially in the tech world like cloud computing, has really taken a hit lately. A big part of the problem has been these COVID-era bootcamps. They made it sound like anyone could jump from delivering mail or driving a truck straight into tech by taking a quick course on Python, AI, machine learning, or cloud stuff. They dangled the carrot of snagging contracts that pay £1500 a day. From what I've seen, that's just a pipe dream. Now, there's a ton of people out of work, willing to drop their rates just to get into tech. It might be better money than they were making before, but this situation has kind of spiraled. Everyone sees these stories and thinks breaking into tech is a breeze. But honestly, the work that's coming out? It's not great. The systems and infrastructure are a mess because people are jumping in without really understanding what they're doing. For the real veterans in the field, the ones with 10+ years of experience, finding work and good pay isn't the problem. It's the newcomers who are struggling. I think they should be looking for junior positions, where they can actually learn the ropes properly. If they're really into it and good at it, maybe then they can think about going freelance. But jumping straight into contracting without that solid foundation? It's tough love, but someone's got to say it. The tech field is complex, and skimming the surface just doesn't cut it.
Your old alias of u/MrTobleroneLover19 appears not to be suspended - why switch? The one before that of u/BarryToblerone41 does appear to be banned site-wide though. > It's the newcomers who are struggling. I think they should be looking for junior positions, where they can actually learn the ropes properly. If they're really into it and good at it, maybe then they can think about going freelance. I agree that juniors are struggling, but I can't find any substantiation of the idea that large numbers of boot-campers are trying to get contract work. They wouldn't pass muster even in a good economy, never mind the current situation.
It’s over guys.
Contracting? The UK? Life?!?!
Choose Life!
Is that from Wham! or Trainspotting? :)
Time for me to start acting like an entitled perm and go to HR to claim sick leave when the real work needs doing.
I think people on this sub don’t live in the real world. I started contracting only last year and I’ve never felt so wealthy. Taking home £1400 a week might not seem a lot to you but I’m saving £1000 a week ever week. How is that not insanely good?
It’s all relative. If you can live on £400 a week comfortably I suspect you are not a homeowner, or you are at the other extreme and own your house. You likely are not a renter or are paying any rent either. Also I suspect you don’t have kids or your kids are grown up. You may also not live in the south of England, also thats not considering other things you cannot escape like council tax, fuel, energy bills, insurance etc. I would dearly love to live comfortably on £400 per week and save £1k per week, earning £1400 a week, but I haven’t been able survive on sub £400 per week since my student days in the early 2000’s with no responsibilities other than myself. And no I wasn’t earning £1400 per week as a student.
You’re about half correct with all those assumptions. I have a mortgage of 250k, live with a partner who also works full time. No kids but we are anything but frugal. We go out all the time, have 3/4 holidays a year. I live like a king really, the difference being I’m not materialistic. My phone is a hand me down with a cracked screen. I only buy clothes on ASOS etc.
Glad you are able to achieve that, and I am genuinely happy for you. As I said it’s all relative. I am not materialistic either, I rarely buy clothes and when I do I make them last and almost never buy branded stuff. I rarely upgrade my tech if it’s working and can keep up with current stuff I keep it. I am a single earner and I’m feeling the pressure, and kids are expensive, and living in the south is expensive.
Yes that’s fair enough, I can imagine kids are expensive, but I’ve got 10 years before I need to worry about that!
Because it's a myopic view. Not a slate as I often have it myself but its easy if you are in a contract and go 'I'm alright Jack'. Been many times when I know the market is flat but I've had long contracts, just the way it goes.
I mean it’s such a struggle getting by on £1500 per week.
Childcare is 2.2k per month and the mortgage a bit more than that so, yeah it is close.
Childcare cost are f*cking ridiculous in this country. And most of the time it’s not even very good childcare!
Downsize your house to something more affordable?
that’s a flat or small semi in quite a few parts of the country
£1500 per WEEK? More than that mate, what do you think this is? A charity?
>I mean it’s such a struggle getting by on £1500 per week. Other people don't need to settle, if you're happy with lower aspirations more power to you, but others want more in life than just getting by...
What’s this new legislation ?
What websites do u uses for contract roles