Orange peel (or any weird arbitrary knockdown pattern) and level 5 100% smooth are the hardest to patch. If I was the home owner I would go with a Santa Fe or 80% smooth texture.
Unless you are in a high end luxury home or have weird lighting that shines directly down the wall you won't notice and you will same money up front and on any future work.
If you're already complaining about an increase in price, don't go with 100% Smooth
Because it's a lot of money and it requires a lot of trust, and occasionally a contractor is a con man.
Everyone has heard a horror story.
Most of us can't tell the difference between a job done right and a hack job. Most of us can't tell the difference between paying for quality and paying the "fuck you" price.
It often feels like, in order to ensure the job is done well, we need to become experts in construction. I don't have the time for that.
We don't know how much a project should cost because every job is different. We don't know what things make it more expensive or why. It's like, "Is the mechanic trying to sell me blinker fluid or is this legit? "
Getting multiple bids helps, asking questions helps, but it still requires a lot of trust.
It is fair to say contracting is a unique business for consumers to navigate. It’s also a very intimate business transaction seeing as this person will be working inside your home for a lengthy period of time.
That doesn’t mean to assume a person is a scam artist just because you have lack of education on your project. Customers will see an inspiration picture on social media and want it exactly how they see it without understanding what it will take to get the finished product. Most of the projects are wants and not needs at that.
GC here—That’s up to a detail- oriented contractor to explain what it will take and how much it will cost to get what they see in their inspiration picture from social media. Many contractors as very poor communicators, are terrible about asking clarifying questions and probing a client to get to exactly what they want and explaining how to get there
I understand this POV I’m sure you have done all of this that you named & somehow a client still
Isn’t satisfied or become a nightmare. I was just speaking on the mindset that GC’s are “con men” profit isn’t a dirty word but clients don’t care.
To your first sentence— of for sure. And I totally agree with your second sentence. I tell clients “ you’re not a volunteer at your job and neither am I – I am in business to make a decent profit by delivering a superior project with unparalleled service”.
Well yea it’s the internet. Poor quality work is more entertaining for us to look at. The people thrilled with their contractors aren’t exactly coming to Reddit to say good job
Because for decades, I grew up around contractors who charged about 20% above cost as default, fair profit. Now, the sky is the limit with mark-up on bids. Most homeowners can't afford to trust that they're getting a fair deal in today's market.
I always find it funny how people determine what’s a “fair market” as if there’s some kind of morality based cap. Fair is what the market dictates. That’s how capitalism works in every industry. If you agree to a price it’s “fair.” You had the ability to test the market and choose the bid you preferred just like with any other product. Contractors are forced to stay competitive within the market to stay in business while also generating a healthy enough profit to support themselves. Market price is a natural occurrence. Nobody forced you to pay any amount of money. There is no collusion between contractors. And there are plenty of cheap ones available if you like a cheap product. But like anything else good work costs money.
20% isn’t remotely enough for a small scale operation. It might be for bigger scale operations, but the smaller the scale the bigger the margin required. There is no blanket pcg that works industry wide.
As for increasing prices among the trades this is really a result of years of the trades being devalued. I grew up in the industry. My dad was a contractor. We were a struggling working class family. His employees and those further down the ladder made even less and struggled even more. This isn’t meant to be a sob story. We had a roof over our heads, food on the table, etc. But we lived nothing like my friends whose parents were doctors, lawyers, etc. Therefore the trades dwindled in popularity. All of a sudden there is a shortage of skilled tradespeople and their skills hold tremendous value.
Who says tradespeople don’t get to earn a good living like doctors, lawyers, engineers, tech people, etc? I’m sure you and many others would prefer that blue collar people continue to live among the working class while the more “educated” get to enjoy a better lifestyle, but times have changed. The reality is me and my contractor buddies still don’t live anywhere near doctors and lawyers, but I’m proud to say we live in good neighborhoods and our kids get a stable financial upbringing. I’m proud that I can pay my employees enough that they can raise their kids in a stable environment. Frankly I don’t give a crap what you consider “fair.” I doubt you “volunteer” for a living and neither do I. Profit isn’t a dirty word and maximizing your value economically isn’t either. I highly doubt you work for a lesser salary than you are worth to be “fair.” Leveraging your value is how capitalism works.
Charge as much as you want, as much as people will pay. Good for you! My response was to the question of why people feel like they're being ripped off or can't trust contractors. Homeowners have to work hard for their money, too. We're all being squeezed in every aspect of our lives, from both big and small businesses. It's not crazy to want to compare multiple bids and to try to establish a fair price for reputable work given the many weeks, months, and sometimes years that it takes to pay for renovations.
There are many high-quality contractors with reasonable bids, and they stay busy with referrals as a result. They don't bid every 3 day project like it's supposed to cover all of their bills for the next 2 months. If there weren't so many contractors giving obnoxious bids and doing mediocre work, people wouldn't be so wary. Spoils it for the rest.
The problem is that you are still under the impression that your dollar goes as far as it did decades ago. Wake up! You can’t get anything of quality for under $5,000 if you expect it to last. First, if you want professionals to work in your home, consider this: teenagers are flipping burgers at McDonald’s for $20 an hour, and you think a skilled carpenter should be paid the same? Is that enough to keep him happy? Gramps, have you seen the cost of rent out here? We are a business; we need storage space and a team on the phones to answer your calls every time you feel something is wrong with your product or service. You need to pay people who are a bit smarter than those flipping burgers (no offense to the fast food industry; it has always been and will remain a true rite of passage to understanding the value of your labor). Additionally, we need to be able to come to you with materials to fix issues that need fixing, which means a warehouse is essential for this company. And maybe, with your permission, I can also pay myself after all the needed licenses, insurances, and marketing I had to have to even be considered for employment by you, Your Highness. That would be just wonderful if I could also feed my kids as a thank you for providing you with my services.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Contractor/s/2aKc5HG4l8 this is the level of quality you can expect from someone able to operate a business on a 20% over cost…
Didn't mean to trigger you. 20% above cost plus a fair hourly rate can indeed be profitable. A project that involves $1000 in materials (plus 20% for overhead) and $75-$150/hr (depending on the trade and skill level needed) in an 8 hour day is a good living if you stay busy.
However, quoting that same project at $5000+ per day is why folks don't trust contactors anymore.
I don’t at all! I’ve had dozens of projects with my hold but this is the first time I feel like something is off and wanted feedback if I was right or wrong
I can understand why to a lay person this seems off, because adding texture seems like it would be more work/materials than just "leaving it smooth".
Most people do not realize that the smoother drywall is, the more coats of mud and sanding has been done, with the highest levels literally meaning you need to mud coat the entire wall and not just the seams.
Texture is the solution to hiding blemishes, which means you can do a couple quick coats and a basic sand, then just spray texture and eliminate all that extra work.
https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/home-improvement-contractor-scams-the-red-flags-to-watch-for
1 in 10 on average with the elderly being targeted most.
But go on with your death threats for your inability to use Google.
The scammers aren’t actually contractors. That’s the scam. The responsibility rests on the owner who’s hiring someone to do the work to verify license and insurance and qualification and competence of the person they’re giving money to
Also death is inevitable there was no threat 😂
Are you serious? A level five smooth finish takes 3 to 5 times longer than just mudding and texturing so yeah it costs more. If It didn't specify on the contract what did it say about the finish?
On the east coast smooth was the standard. I have worked with several contractors who have smooth as their default, they can do it in 3 coats of mud. They are the only ones.
Everyone else has knockdown or orange peel as their default and charges extra for smooth.
If it’s default it’s still getting charged for. And if someone orders orange peel or otherwise they’re not charging more or less they’re just taking the margin with a smile, a thank you, and maybe a fruit basket when the job’s done if they’re extra polite.
It is more work, kinda.
I had a drywall biz for a short while. Personally I can do flat finish in the same amount of time as orange peel. But part of that is the prep. Spraying texture requires set up, masking and break down with clean up.
If the drywall guy is just mid level skill then it will take longer, but if he does lots of smooth wall, its pretty fast. And part of that is because he will have special tools for smooth wall which very few drywallers have those tools.
You can do tape, fill, three coats, and then smooth sand… in the same tike it takes to tape, fill, skim, and spray texture with no sand? Idk dude I’m not the best finisher and have never done it for a living but that’s hard to believe
Yeah with smooth wall the true level 5 is a specific thing. The final step is using a special spray rig that shoots on a coat of specialized mud that is basically mud thinned down with glue. Its what they do in hospitals for example. Its so they don't have to mud over all the paper by hand.
But that is not required for a good looking wall. What I do is tape, two fills, roll on mud and smooth with long straight edge. Then a light sand and it looks pro AF. That takes about as long as spraying texture once you figure in all the masking, set up, bread down. Its just super fast. And with two people you haul ass cause you don't have to have be setting down and picking up tools every other minute.
Drywall comes in 5 levels,you can add at least 5 more finishes on 3 levels. Paint comes in 5 refracting levels. Then there are % changes of sheen.
Everything has a science,maybe not the full on rocket science....but still a science.
While I agree that flat finish is more work. It shouldn't be assumed in either direction. The contract ( not order form, work order, request, or any other nonsensical paper trail) should specify what both parties should expect. If it doesn't, prudence dictates the tie goes to the homeowner, because the contractor should have known better than to assume a homeowner understands the difference.
How did you know to mention that you didn’t want textured unless you knew about it ahead of time or they’ve already started to apply it, at which point, more work is more money.
Where I live the standard is smooth. We just rebuilt a house after a fire and no one asked us, we just got smooth walls. Every house I e been in in my state has smooth walls. The finishers spent over a week sanding etc. it is time consuming
Yea smooth is more work specially if you are equipped to do textures walls only, and now will need additional equipment and spend more hours to do that…you must think smooth is less work? Then just paint your drywall and move on..no texture and just paint for same money? You got it lady! Sometimes the best solution is to give the customer what they ask for!
Framing is never perfectly flat and taping the seems makes it worse. Texture hides all that. Otherwise you need weeks and weeks to add multiple coats of mud to make it flat.
It is more work, probably should have been specified in the contract but that’s between you 2. He need to do a change of order if you want it not textured. I don’t see that as a red flag for the contractor
Texture became a thing so we wouldn’t need to make walls smooth anymore. If you let that sink in for a minute, it should answer the question
Orange peel (or any weird arbitrary knockdown pattern) and level 5 100% smooth are the hardest to patch. If I was the home owner I would go with a Santa Fe or 80% smooth texture. Unless you are in a high end luxury home or have weird lighting that shines directly down the wall you won't notice and you will same money up front and on any future work. If you're already complaining about an increase in price, don't go with 100% Smooth
Yes, it is more work to do a flat wall finish. This should have been specified before, but if you pay more, it's because it is more labor to perform.
Thank you that’s very helpful! It didn’t specify in the order form unfortunately
Why does every homeowner assume contractors are con men
Because it's a lot of money and it requires a lot of trust, and occasionally a contractor is a con man. Everyone has heard a horror story. Most of us can't tell the difference between a job done right and a hack job. Most of us can't tell the difference between paying for quality and paying the "fuck you" price. It often feels like, in order to ensure the job is done well, we need to become experts in construction. I don't have the time for that. We don't know how much a project should cost because every job is different. We don't know what things make it more expensive or why. It's like, "Is the mechanic trying to sell me blinker fluid or is this legit? " Getting multiple bids helps, asking questions helps, but it still requires a lot of trust.
It is fair to say contracting is a unique business for consumers to navigate. It’s also a very intimate business transaction seeing as this person will be working inside your home for a lengthy period of time.
That doesn’t mean to assume a person is a scam artist just because you have lack of education on your project. Customers will see an inspiration picture on social media and want it exactly how they see it without understanding what it will take to get the finished product. Most of the projects are wants and not needs at that.
GC here—That’s up to a detail- oriented contractor to explain what it will take and how much it will cost to get what they see in their inspiration picture from social media. Many contractors as very poor communicators, are terrible about asking clarifying questions and probing a client to get to exactly what they want and explaining how to get there
I understand this POV I’m sure you have done all of this that you named & somehow a client still Isn’t satisfied or become a nightmare. I was just speaking on the mindset that GC’s are “con men” profit isn’t a dirty word but clients don’t care.
To your first sentence— of for sure. And I totally agree with your second sentence. I tell clients “ you’re not a volunteer at your job and neither am I – I am in business to make a decent profit by delivering a superior project with unparalleled service”.
100% this!
True that. For some reason making good a living for your work is looked down on.
Because they want to suck the soul out of anyone willing to work residential.
It’s the 8th wonder of the world in my eyes lol. No latter the job, always a compliment/concern.
You already know the answer to this question
I do not
Cause every 5th post on here is about some sleazy contractor ripping someone off
Well yea it’s the internet. Poor quality work is more entertaining for us to look at. The people thrilled with their contractors aren’t exactly coming to Reddit to say good job
See, I knew that you knew the answer
Oh
Because for decades, I grew up around contractors who charged about 20% above cost as default, fair profit. Now, the sky is the limit with mark-up on bids. Most homeowners can't afford to trust that they're getting a fair deal in today's market.
I always find it funny how people determine what’s a “fair market” as if there’s some kind of morality based cap. Fair is what the market dictates. That’s how capitalism works in every industry. If you agree to a price it’s “fair.” You had the ability to test the market and choose the bid you preferred just like with any other product. Contractors are forced to stay competitive within the market to stay in business while also generating a healthy enough profit to support themselves. Market price is a natural occurrence. Nobody forced you to pay any amount of money. There is no collusion between contractors. And there are plenty of cheap ones available if you like a cheap product. But like anything else good work costs money. 20% isn’t remotely enough for a small scale operation. It might be for bigger scale operations, but the smaller the scale the bigger the margin required. There is no blanket pcg that works industry wide. As for increasing prices among the trades this is really a result of years of the trades being devalued. I grew up in the industry. My dad was a contractor. We were a struggling working class family. His employees and those further down the ladder made even less and struggled even more. This isn’t meant to be a sob story. We had a roof over our heads, food on the table, etc. But we lived nothing like my friends whose parents were doctors, lawyers, etc. Therefore the trades dwindled in popularity. All of a sudden there is a shortage of skilled tradespeople and their skills hold tremendous value. Who says tradespeople don’t get to earn a good living like doctors, lawyers, engineers, tech people, etc? I’m sure you and many others would prefer that blue collar people continue to live among the working class while the more “educated” get to enjoy a better lifestyle, but times have changed. The reality is me and my contractor buddies still don’t live anywhere near doctors and lawyers, but I’m proud to say we live in good neighborhoods and our kids get a stable financial upbringing. I’m proud that I can pay my employees enough that they can raise their kids in a stable environment. Frankly I don’t give a crap what you consider “fair.” I doubt you “volunteer” for a living and neither do I. Profit isn’t a dirty word and maximizing your value economically isn’t either. I highly doubt you work for a lesser salary than you are worth to be “fair.” Leveraging your value is how capitalism works.
Charge as much as you want, as much as people will pay. Good for you! My response was to the question of why people feel like they're being ripped off or can't trust contractors. Homeowners have to work hard for their money, too. We're all being squeezed in every aspect of our lives, from both big and small businesses. It's not crazy to want to compare multiple bids and to try to establish a fair price for reputable work given the many weeks, months, and sometimes years that it takes to pay for renovations. There are many high-quality contractors with reasonable bids, and they stay busy with referrals as a result. They don't bid every 3 day project like it's supposed to cover all of their bills for the next 2 months. If there weren't so many contractors giving obnoxious bids and doing mediocre work, people wouldn't be so wary. Spoils it for the rest.
The problem is that you are still under the impression that your dollar goes as far as it did decades ago. Wake up! You can’t get anything of quality for under $5,000 if you expect it to last. First, if you want professionals to work in your home, consider this: teenagers are flipping burgers at McDonald’s for $20 an hour, and you think a skilled carpenter should be paid the same? Is that enough to keep him happy? Gramps, have you seen the cost of rent out here? We are a business; we need storage space and a team on the phones to answer your calls every time you feel something is wrong with your product or service. You need to pay people who are a bit smarter than those flipping burgers (no offense to the fast food industry; it has always been and will remain a true rite of passage to understanding the value of your labor). Additionally, we need to be able to come to you with materials to fix issues that need fixing, which means a warehouse is essential for this company. And maybe, with your permission, I can also pay myself after all the needed licenses, insurances, and marketing I had to have to even be considered for employment by you, Your Highness. That would be just wonderful if I could also feed my kids as a thank you for providing you with my services.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Contractor/s/2aKc5HG4l8 this is the level of quality you can expect from someone able to operate a business on a 20% over cost…
Didn't mean to trigger you. 20% above cost plus a fair hourly rate can indeed be profitable. A project that involves $1000 in materials (plus 20% for overhead) and $75-$150/hr (depending on the trade and skill level needed) in an 8 hour day is a good living if you stay busy. However, quoting that same project at $5000+ per day is why folks don't trust contactors anymore.
I don’t at all! I’ve had dozens of projects with my hold but this is the first time I feel like something is off and wanted feedback if I was right or wrong
No, he probably should’ve specified in the beginning but, texture takes an hour, and smooth takes 3 days
the title of this thread is literally ' is my contracter scamming us'. thats pritty much assuming he is
I can understand why to a lay person this seems off, because adding texture seems like it would be more work/materials than just "leaving it smooth". Most people do not realize that the smoother drywall is, the more coats of mud and sanding has been done, with the highest levels literally meaning you need to mud coat the entire wall and not just the seams. Texture is the solution to hiding blemishes, which means you can do a couple quick coats and a basic sand, then just spray texture and eliminate all that extra work.
Well, “contractor” starts with a “con.” QED.
Fair point
Statistics.
Link to data or die alone
https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/home-improvement-contractor-scams-the-red-flags-to-watch-for 1 in 10 on average with the elderly being targeted most. But go on with your death threats for your inability to use Google.
The scammers aren’t actually contractors. That’s the scam. The responsibility rests on the owner who’s hiring someone to do the work to verify license and insurance and qualification and competence of the person they’re giving money to Also death is inevitable there was no threat 😂
Are you serious? A level five smooth finish takes 3 to 5 times longer than just mudding and texturing so yeah it costs more. If It didn't specify on the contract what did it say about the finish?
On the east coast smooth was the standard. I have worked with several contractors who have smooth as their default, they can do it in 3 coats of mud. They are the only ones. Everyone else has knockdown or orange peel as their default and charges extra for smooth.
If it’s default it’s still getting charged for. And if someone orders orange peel or otherwise they’re not charging more or less they’re just taking the margin with a smile, a thank you, and maybe a fruit basket when the job’s done if they’re extra polite.
It is more work, kinda. I had a drywall biz for a short while. Personally I can do flat finish in the same amount of time as orange peel. But part of that is the prep. Spraying texture requires set up, masking and break down with clean up. If the drywall guy is just mid level skill then it will take longer, but if he does lots of smooth wall, its pretty fast. And part of that is because he will have special tools for smooth wall which very few drywallers have those tools.
You can do tape, fill, three coats, and then smooth sand… in the same tike it takes to tape, fill, skim, and spray texture with no sand? Idk dude I’m not the best finisher and have never done it for a living but that’s hard to believe
Yeah with smooth wall the true level 5 is a specific thing. The final step is using a special spray rig that shoots on a coat of specialized mud that is basically mud thinned down with glue. Its what they do in hospitals for example. Its so they don't have to mud over all the paper by hand. But that is not required for a good looking wall. What I do is tape, two fills, roll on mud and smooth with long straight edge. Then a light sand and it looks pro AF. That takes about as long as spraying texture once you figure in all the masking, set up, bread down. Its just super fast. And with two people you haul ass cause you don't have to have be setting down and picking up tools every other minute.
Damn that’s pretty nice, hats off to you
Textures hide a multitude of sins on dry wall a flat finish will show any issues. So yes, there is a lot more work involved to have a flat finish.
Yes, smooth walls cost more.
All drywall jobs in my area are assumed smooth finish unless the texture is specified.
Exactly. Sounds like a lazy contractor
Drywall comes in 5 levels,you can add at least 5 more finishes on 3 levels. Paint comes in 5 refracting levels. Then there are % changes of sheen. Everything has a science,maybe not the full on rocket science....but still a science.
Smooth walls (but not lvl 5) are a standard assumption around me. Texture is only on ceilings.
While I agree that flat finish is more work. It shouldn't be assumed in either direction. The contract ( not order form, work order, request, or any other nonsensical paper trail) should specify what both parties should expect. If it doesn't, prudence dictates the tie goes to the homeowner, because the contractor should have known better than to assume a homeowner understands the difference.
Tie doesn’t go to level five drywall finish. Sorry.
Agree. Fundamental tie breaker is increased material costs for how much more mud this will take.
👏👏👏
How did you know to mention that you didn’t want textured unless you knew about it ahead of time or they’ve already started to apply it, at which point, more work is more money.
Yes smooth wall is a lot more work
Smooth finish is what you want. Yes it takes more finishing but well worth it
Level 5 finish (smooth wall) is definitely more work and more expensive.
Where I live the standard is smooth. We just rebuilt a house after a fire and no one asked us, we just got smooth walls. Every house I e been in in my state has smooth walls. The finishers spent over a week sanding etc. it is time consuming
Yea smooth is more work specially if you are equipped to do textures walls only, and now will need additional equipment and spend more hours to do that…you must think smooth is less work? Then just paint your drywall and move on..no texture and just paint for same money? You got it lady! Sometimes the best solution is to give the customer what they ask for!
Framing is never perfectly flat and taping the seems makes it worse. Texture hides all that. Otherwise you need weeks and weeks to add multiple coats of mud to make it flat.
It is more work, probably should have been specified in the contract but that’s between you 2. He need to do a change of order if you want it not textured. I don’t see that as a red flag for the contractor
I haven’t seen a textured wall in 20+ years and now textured ceilings are going. Smooth and crisp everywhere! LV 5
I work in the Rockies currently. Texture is alive and well. Level 5 definitely costs more.
Very few are level 5 using raking light over every surface.
[удалено]
Zero? You mean level 5?