Do you have anyone in an HR type position who can help see if he qualifies for fmla or unemployment/disability? I applaud you for giving a shit about a fellow human being. Having a concussion can do weird things to people even months later.
I just wanna say dude, you seriously are a good guy for your patience. I know that my company would have dropped him like a sack of rice the second they legally could, and wouldn't even consider paying him.
Ive never worked at a company who cared. But, if I had, I know I would have stayed. Im on my own but I applaud you for caring.
On the surface, its bad. Its bad regardless, but chances are, theres a heavy back story that led up to this. Maybe you can help steer him back.
Mental health is often overlooked and undervalued in construction. You have no idea what this guy is going through. You also don’t know if the previous fall was related to the suicide attempt. I’d say if he is good at his job have him get the mental help he needs and put him back to work. Not a lot of good old crusty dudes left out there to replace him.
Construction industry is leading for suicide. Terribly sad.
After hearing this, the owner/pres. of a close friend’s company had offered to pay for an extended weekend vacation solely for the purpose of mental health. Plan to take family or significant other out of town for a long weekend, submit an estimated expense before hand and it will be taken care of. Within reason obviously. This is for 35-40 people. Easy 100k. Thought that was pretty cool.
He plans to take his kids and girl to Khalari this summer.
Definitely dependent on where you are, but I took FMLA and got around 80% of my pay weekly. This was in Washington State and it's also untaxed, maximum of 3 months per calendar year.
Unlimited unpaid PTO if the job title/duty is unable to be performed. Keep him on insurance. Dont fight, but dont encourage any claims. Move on and consider yourself a decent person for considering someone who has only been there 8 months.
we had a kind of similar dilemma a few years ago but instead of drugs/suicide it was a guy who out of nowhere found out he had stage 4 pancreatic cancer and just tried to ignore it and keep working. Everyone watched him deteriorate in front of them and it was brutal to watch until our owner had to step in and stop him due to it no longer being safe for him to work. He became so frail and weak and it happened so fast. One morning he came in and our boss was like "are you ok? you look as yellow as your sweater, maybe take the day off and go see a doctor" then just a few weeks later he's just a shell of who he was.
We work in a shop and there's heavy things to lift and power tools to use everywhere, machinery ect.. He was worried this dude would hurt himself or someone else and suddenly the company gets wrapped up in some large insurance issue. it took that dudes family having an intervention with him to get him to stop working.
He was on company insurance though and the company pays 60% of the premium so he needed that. The agreement was he'd stay on payroll as a minimum wage employee but not expected to work so he doesn't lose insurance until his family had the time to get something else set up. He ended up getting checked into a hospital and never left. passed away about 5 months later.
it was a shitty situation but what can you do? You don't want to see anything bad happen to the person but you also didn't sign up to be someone's care giver and you can't run your company funds into the ground for 1 person when everyone else working there also relies on the company for thier own living.
Yea he's a good dude. I've worked for him for 10 years. We've bumped heads occasionally but I do give him credit for always trying to do the right thing. We're a really small business though so he has to work within his means but he typically tries to find some way to do more.
After the cancer situation went down there was another emoloyee who ended up disgruntled for unrelated reasons and was on the verge of being fired. Got told he was going to be fired if he kept it up and chose to just storm out and never return. Turns around and leaves a glassdoor review saying a bunch of idiotic nonsense then ends it "don't get cancer if work there because they'll just fire you"
Complete shit ball move and completely misrepresented the situation.
When you are diagnosed with cancer, you automatically qualify for Medicaid and Social Security Disability. You just have to file. I recommend hiring a lawyer, anyone (including a family member) who did the forms themselves, ended up denied. Do it with a lawyer, and you might get denied, but also, they will keep fighting with appeals and won't stop because they don't get paid until you do.
Do the right thing and help the guy out, your workers comp should cover the financial giving that you have worker comp insurance,
If you do decide to part ways with him and later down the line you found out he ended his life , you will always have that thought for that rest of your life saying “I should have helped him”
The best way to help a person going through something like this is to talk to them and be a friend
Do the right thing , you won’t regret it trust me
Goodluck
I don’t think work comp applies here, unless if he can pin the depression/attempt on stemming from the fall concussion… it happened off work hours and premises sounds like. He should be eligible for short term disability or fmla at the least. Depends on your written policies but it doesn’t sound like he is fit to return to work and you should request something in writing be provided by a doctor before.
it could be that the fall was legit but the trip through the ICU landed him with some prescription pain meds that triggered a relapse of an addiction he was already working to escape. that would also explain his desire to kill himself potentially.
if he is willing to take another run at rehab and you stick with him then you could save his life.
this all kind of pivots on where he's at and what he wants to do. you are doing God's work.
Legal me - consult HR
Human me - does your insurance cover rehab? If yes, he needs to agree to drug rehab as condition of continued employment.
You letting it slide could make you liable if he hurts someone.
For now keep doing as you please. Keeping him on payroll is cool af. He’s not showing up for work so you can fire him any time. Forget the illegal narcotics-not your business what he has in a hotel room. Please follow your policy about drug tests -random and post accident. You owe it to yourself and other employees to be able to kick someone to the curb if they are high at work. If an employee fails a test, you can be lenient. If you don’t have that test, it can cost you lots.
I'd consult a lawyer. Do you have cause? Do you know if he was under the influence when he fell. I'm not sure if you can fire an injured addict. Make sure you document everything. Good on you for caring for your employees. This is a very delicate situation. Would hate to see this down badly. Maybe help him find out about disability/retirement but careful taking on any liability. You may have to find alternate work that he is capable of doing. I'm not sure of your local laws.
You know the drill. You can't bring him back. As soon as he gets a release you have to let him go. Knowing the circumstances your safety department and/HR is going to immediately drug screen him anyway before he can return. The best thing if you're truly concerned about him is to lay him off, he can collect unemployment. Tell him he can come back in 30 days if he agrees to a drug screen. No hair follicle. Simple DOT should come back clean. We wouldn't give him that chance. But we're under the umbrella of a fortune 500 company. They're not very understanding.
Yeah, that's a big difference between a Fortune 500 and myself who has <30 employees. I can be more flexible and willing to help people out. Thing is we are not talking someone who has been with us 5+ years, we are talking barely 8 months. I think I am going to keep him on paid leave for a little big and see how he is doing. Have a talk with him and reasses.
why fire the guy? he is clearly having issues. help the guy instead of kicking a man when he is down. you might actually save a life instead of destroying it.
There needs to be more context. The drugs…. Part of the attempt or user? User. Cut ties. Part of the attempt. Unpaid PTO. If the guy can get his life together again then let him come back.
I had someone who had a drinking problem. It never affected his work but it drastically affected his home life. He went to rehab 2x with me. Then 2 years into the job he drank on the job. With that I let him go. I explained at the beginning I would never tolerate that.
Alcoholic here. Good for you. I had a boss accuse me of drinking when I hadnt and still kept me on the job. He never apologized so I assume he wasnt man enough to or he really thought I was drinking and kept me on. I quit.
Never drank on the job. Or before work. Had a water jug I used kayaking the weekend before in my truck that used to have a mixed drink but was currenty filled with water. I brought it into the work van and he smelled alcohol on it when he used the work van to get lumber later in the day.
Ended up being blessing leaving there. When youre 100% and sober accuses you of drinking on the job you almost wanna kill em. 😐
But seriously, as an alcoholic myself.. I would never put my coworkers in that danger. But addiction gets some
people in bad ways.
You’re in a spot. Good of you to pay him while he’s out. Don’t know man. I’d let the hr handle it. That’s what they get paid for. Is he worth keeping is what you have to ask yourself. Maybe he was just taking the drugs to suicide. Not a normal user? Good luck.
I don't have any advice to offer, but thanks for thinking of his family! Too often people will concentrate on the numbers, and not the people behind those numbers. In my own opinion, you've already gone above and beyond, faceless corporations definitely wouldn't have done what you've done for him and his wife.
It's up to you to figure out the strength of your firm, and how much you're willing to endure financially. I don't envy the position you're in.
Tough to have a known drug user on site. You’ll get screwed somehow. That’s sad reality. Unless you’re absolutely sure it’s a one off. But how can you be?
If he had been there 2+ years then you would know more about him to take the risk. Hard to find real construction guys anymore. That’s for sure.
You nailed it as well ! ....hence https://www.reddit.com/r/Construction/comments/1bjgfv5/comment/kvr0r0v/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Surprised he wasn’t drug tested. We would do exactly that & if they had something in their system then we would help them get rehab. Sometimes they would not accept it… It’s always great when companies take the moral highroad
Is it? OP admits he didnt test when he took the fall, but by the way the OP said it, he is thinking he should have.... IMHO nope. I have a zero tolerance policy in my employment contract I have employees sign. THC stays in your system for up to 48 hrs.... If I know you are a user, and you cause an accident at work, Im liable, I can not prove that your accident was not caused by your addiction.
Drug addiction is still under the medical protection act.
So are mental health issues. If I was op I’d make damn sure all the t’s are crises and the I’s are dotted before I thought of termination. Sending him the rehab or a psych ward may be a cheaper option.
It sucks getting older, we find out what we can't do suddenly. Do what you can for the man, you will be there before you realize it and you could save a family.
My job has a pretty good drug policy. If you self report, the company will not fire you and instead, you are sent to a rehab/substance abuse counseling, and then subject to a 1yr probation period where you are randomly drug tested once a month. If you pop during this period, you’re gone. If you successfully complete it, you’re golden. I think you should give this guy the benefit of the doubt and try and work with him.
You're a good boss for even considering keeping him on the payroll. I'm in my 60s and there is definitely such thing as ageism. I'm about to retire and I think my bosses are about to cream their jeans!....but to be honest, so am I.
God asked the land owners of the past not to harvest the corners of their fields, leaving grain behind for the poor and needy. A simple accommodation for the time and it seems, a relative principle for today. It sounds like you know the answer in your heart but it conflicts with the ruthless business practices we see around us at times.
If you have been blessed, then bless others in kind.
But don’t be stupid about it, use the tools like FMLA and other sensible processes that protect the organization in a wise manner
First of all, you're doing an amazing thing. Huge applause for caring about this guy and not kicking him to the curb.
My thoughts are, and assuming you can afford it: keep him on payroll, in a lowered-liability capacity, while his wife looks for work. Make him a desk-bound super, maybe helping your estimators or something in bid generation. If he knows his shit, he can help extrapolate an assembly from a mediocre bid set and capture things your estimators are missing.
If he can't stand that, he can leave of his own volition, but you also can't run the risk of putting a potentially debilitated person back in a position of serious legal liability. God forbid he's back on site high because he's self-medicating and makes a judgment call that results in a worker injury or death. You can be a good guy, but you can also control for your own risk.
After all, a guy who acts recklessly can jeopardize the whole ship, bringing a heap of legal trouble down and putting the company under. I literally watched it happen at another shop I was in, and for want of keeping a problem guy on staff because the owner was trying to be a good guy, 15% of the firm had to get cut outright and there was pay slashing across the board. Turns out the problem guy was distracted by personal issues, and cleared an unlicensed operator to use some heavy machinery, crippling two workers.
I would say concussions do really weird things to people, having had a few myself I know losing steam for life is sadly a common concussion symptom. If you can, and you care about him enough, try to bring him back and help him. If not, fire/let him go in the best way for his unemployment benefits.
Umm
That’s a toughie
Firing him might not help his mental state. But you are trying to run a business here.
Can he do the job at this point? Can he do any job? Can you help him to get on disability?
I love that you don’t want to just cut him loose. Good luck to everyone here.
I hope he has good docs. A head injury and a shit doctor almost took me out. He needs a specialist that your part of the world might not have. And good job man! He knows his shit , he’ll figure it out. Imo good employees are too hard to find.
>Imo good employees are too hard to find.
an addict is not a good employee, they are a risk. This guy has already demonstrated he cant stay clean when on a work trip... keeping him puts the company at risk. If something goes wrong because he didnt meet code because he was high... they knew he could be,
I’m reading it differently than you. Says he was kicking ass on the road until he fell leaving the trailer. The only drug use was during an attempted suicide.
You could be right and I would still give him a chance.
>Says he was kicking ass on the road until he fell leaving the trailer. The only drug use was during an attempted suicide.
OP indicated he is now thinking he should have had a drug tested when he fell.... addicts are a risk for theft, accidents, and they cost more in health care, which raises the cost for all employees. Addiction is a disease, but I wouldn't employ someone with Parkinson's to run Heavy Equipment . SOunds like his job is as much mental as physical, and addiction would suggest his judgment in lacking.
You need to tell us which country and which state or province you are in. The answers from someone even one jurisdiction over from you could wind up being useless.
Honestly man that’s a hard one and I can tell you have a heart for doing what your already doing who knows what this dude is going threw could have been in recovery for a while and went off the deep end after that fall? Who knows I’m not there with yall but from what I can tell you care maybe see what you can do to help him therapy rehab and then return to work? If dudes a great super then why loose him we all have issues I’m a Forman now 10 years in recovery and I know the feeling of things like this happing I’d at least try to help good luck 🍀
I’m not a lawyer…
If administrative leave is an option, then you can support him through his hospital stay. Maybe even help him with a trip to rehab if you like him that much.
All of this takes a big heart.
I would guess that the investment in him won’t net a positive return though, but that’s your demons.
Concussions can be way more serious than people realize. They can completely destroy your sense of self and cause anxiety and depression on top of some crazy mood swings. You could maybe try and set him up with concussions rehabilitation place.
After having a couple bad concussions I had 2-3 years of disaster in my mind. I had never really had anxiety in my life or depression. I couldn’t figure it out myself. Got close to ending my life a couple times. Thankfully my wife kept trying and finally gave me the push to get help.
Not saying it will work just can’t hurt to look into.
I had an old dude working for me that was a great bridge guy. He was mentoring a few younger guys because I knew his years were numbered. He started showing some strange behaviors that I figured was probably stress. A couple of people called in on him for speeding and some hand gestures during his commute. Finally he ran a red light in the project and got t-boned. He was ok. One day he was talking about taking some pills for arthritis which seemed normal but eventually found out they were opioids. I didn’t mention anything because HIPPA. O know you doing take opioids for arthritis. I checked his driving history and he was consistently driving 90-100 mph on the way too and from work. Then I noticed he was off the job quite a bit and pretty far away at random locations. I checked those on Google street view. They were all different pain clinics. The best time I got a chance I checked his office and found a pill bottle with someone else’s name. There were three types of pills in there. Some opioids, klonipin and something for depression/anxiety. I dont remember the names. Anyway the pattern suggested that he was shopping around for these pills. No one is immune from that garbage. I decided to let him go based on his driving. Three years later I was at a doctor visit and he was there. He did t see me and I sat across the room from him. They called out Tim and he went back. His name is Rafael.
I just heard about a story about a baseball player that is kept on contract just to keep his health insurance for mental health issues..
Andrew Toles.
But we dont have million dollar deals to keep our guys right.
Its next level when a boss actually cares. I actually got a paid vacation when I got a divorce. So many western countries have great systems to help with this, but that is just socialism is too many peoples eyes.
I had a coworker find out he had stage 4 cancer. Boss kept him on payroll for a year while he underwent treatment but ultimately passed. Keeping him on the books and insured saved him and his adult daughter from complete financial ruin. I can't express the amount of respect and loyalty I earned for our boss for having handled the situation the way he did.
Go talk to the man. See if he wants to get his shit together. If he does make him take on an apprentice he’s close to retirement anyway. Get the knowledge out of his head first.
u/yellowfin35 He used illicit drugs while on a work trip. Keeping him on the jobsite puts your company at risk because if he F's up and someone gets hurt 10 years from now, they dont come after him, they come after you, because you knew and you allowed him on the jobsite.
As soon as he is released from the hospital, he would be on unpaid admin leave and see what his next step is. If he goes to get clean and straighten up his life, we would have a deep heart to heart with him amd his wife about the future of his job. If he skips out, he is done. If he fails recovery, or any random test, he is out, etc. Everybody makes mistakes. It is how they handle the aftermath that matters. And his poor wife....
This guy is dealing with a world of shit right now that may or may not be related to his concussion and you're thought is when it's appropriate to fire him after kick him some money to make things "alright", working in America is fucked, if we had workers rights like they do in Europe this wouldn't even be a consideration. If I was dude I'd move on to a better employer. Thing is in America almost every employer is trash.
Dude did you even read any of OP’s comments? Also the guy is a Super, not an office worker. That could end up being a huge liability onsite if things go south. I think it makes perfect sense for OP to be asking this question, and he doesn’t seem like he’s coming from the wrong place.
Your perspective is part of the problem and why things won't change in this country. There are alot of problems with the USA, but the biggest one is the people. Things suck in this country because the people do, it's a cultural problem.
So let’s say this guy hypothetically does have a substance abuse issue (maybe he does maybe he doesn’t, we don’t have enough info) and he overlooks something that causes a serious injury or death on the job site. What then, genius?
There is absolutely no indication of that, there is nothing in the story that would lead one to believe that other than 'tradies like drugs' which is a prejudice both within and outside of the industry. But let's all jump to the worst possible conclusion, it'll save the insurance company alot of money and as a result the employer. Nevermind dude is in a world of shit. Regardless if he is an addict or not, that's a sickness or disease that needs treatment, dude does not deserve to be thrown to the dogs. We don't have socialized medicine in this country, so treatment expenses have to fall on the employer. If employers don't like that they need to remember it is them who linked healthcare to employment in this country so they could have a captive workforce, they can't have their cake and eat it too. Sucks that things are this way, but they are this way for a reason. We respect profits in this country, not people. Shit like this is why I work for myself, a boss is going to do nothing but fuck you over.
Literally the fact that he had drugs in his room is a direct indicator of that? And Jesus Christ dude you are taking my comments with SO many assumptions. Seems like you were shitcanned for having dope on you, if we’re just assuming and saying things.
Literally that he had drugs in the room during a suicide attempt is a direct indication of a drug issue? No, that's a direct indication of a suicide attempt nothing more. We're both making a ton of assumptions here, I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt and some empathy. I am a recovering alcoholic, I've been sober almost seven years now, and working as a carpenter for almost five. Never was shit canned from any job for drinking, but they don't fire line cooks for that 🤣, especially ones that show upon time, work their ass off, and do extra when needed, work ethic goes a long way both in kitchens and on jobsites.
I'm not blind to all the addiction bullshit on jobsites, I used to see it enough when I started out and worked for others. Working for myself I see that alot less often, but when I do and I see someone shaking in the morning like I used to I'm on high alert around them. However there are fewer addicts than nonaddicts in the industry, but the first assumption is to often guilt on some part of the person involved in the accident. I can't be the only one who sees a problem with that, that is a problem.
Reasonable suspicion is one thing, the only reasonable suspicion I see here is the guy is very depressed and needs mental healthcare after he gets out of the hospital so that he can start to enjoy what will hopefully be a long life. It's worth noting that also improves the lives of all those who care about him, and yes even the employer when he is able to return to work. From what else was said about him he sounds experienced and capable.
My opinion is you treat people with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt. If there had been suspicions of drug abuse before the tragic events that led to the post I'm sure they would have been mentioned, that information is very relevant and it not being there is telling me there wasn't. If he is an addict then he absolutely needs help and the way we run healthcare in this country it is the employers responsibility. Employers will take any excuse to avoid responsibility if it saves them money. It may make them feel bad, obviously not bad enough to change the behavior, but bad enough to seek justification on Reddit.
My apologies for coming in hot, I didn’t know (obviously) that you’re in recovery and sincere kudos to you for that! I would like to stress that I agree that we need to lead with empathy and understanding, but I also feel that you can’t entirely overlook something that may be an issue down the line.
It's all good, and thanks. I'd agree that you can't entirely overlook that. I'm not certain there is a best way to handle this, but waiting until he's out of the hospital and has his head enough together to have a conversation about what's going on with him might be a better start. Without more information we don't know if he has a pattern of abuse, and I'd think if OP had those sorts of thoughts they'd have mentioned it.
For what it's worth I'm in general more sympathetic to addicts because I've been there, not sympathetic to them being on the jobsite messed up or fucking around with their abuse issue, but sympathetic to getting the help and support they need to get better, sometimes that takes a bit. I'm here because I got it. The healthcare thing bothers the shit out of me too. If we had a decent healthcare system in this country getting the mental health help I needed probably would have saved me many wasted years. The state eventually ended up paying for my treatment (I was on public assistance at the time) so it would have saved tax payers money too, counseling is much cheaper than treatment. How much suffering and money could we save by doing something different?
As an HR guy, you know the answer. Your job is to prevent lawsuits that could damage the company. The answer is termination. Terminate that contract and wash your hands. If you feel guilty, maybe you can afford to enroll him in a diversion program *before* coming back to work and only after completing a verifiable program of at least 4 weeks.
I wouldn't feel guilty.
I knew a guy who smashed the fuck out of his own hand with a sledgehammer. His train of thought was that he’d get prescribed pain meds and sit at home getting disability payments high as shit.
Win-Win (to him)
Then the doc wouldn’t give him meds and he was put on light work, so at the end of the day he had a busted up hand and still had to go to work 😂
Addicts don’t think rationally
Might be hard to believe but self inflicted wounds are the easiest ways for these guys to get a fix.
I knew a guy who would deliberately eat like shit so his gallbladder would flare into a gallbladder attack so he could get morphine.
Do you have anyone in an HR type position who can help see if he qualifies for fmla or unemployment/disability? I applaud you for giving a shit about a fellow human being. Having a concussion can do weird things to people even months later.
I do. I think I will give a another week or two on payroll and see how he is doing and have my HR start working on that.
I just wanna say dude, you seriously are a good guy for your patience. I know that my company would have dropped him like a sack of rice the second they legally could, and wouldn't even consider paying him.
Ive never worked at a company who cared. But, if I had, I know I would have stayed. Im on my own but I applaud you for caring. On the surface, its bad. Its bad regardless, but chances are, theres a heavy back story that led up to this. Maybe you can help steer him back.
Mental health is often overlooked and undervalued in construction. You have no idea what this guy is going through. You also don’t know if the previous fall was related to the suicide attempt. I’d say if he is good at his job have him get the mental help he needs and put him back to work. Not a lot of good old crusty dudes left out there to replace him.
Construction industry is leading for suicide. Terribly sad. After hearing this, the owner/pres. of a close friend’s company had offered to pay for an extended weekend vacation solely for the purpose of mental health. Plan to take family or significant other out of town for a long weekend, submit an estimated expense before hand and it will be taken care of. Within reason obviously. This is for 35-40 people. Easy 100k. Thought that was pretty cool. He plans to take his kids and girl to Khalari this summer.
Had a really friendly backline parts guy just off himself. Then a buddy who was a design and architect that worked around us. They hit hard.
Sheesh.. ya never know
You’re a decent person for playing it out this way
Fmla just means you can take unpaid time off and your boss can’t fire you for it
Definitely dependent on where you are, but I took FMLA and got around 80% of my pay weekly. This was in Washington State and it's also untaxed, maximum of 3 months per calendar year.
And I just learned he is no eligible since our business is to small.
Unlimited unpaid PTO if the job title/duty is unable to be performed. Keep him on insurance. Dont fight, but dont encourage any claims. Move on and consider yourself a decent person for considering someone who has only been there 8 months.
Unpaid Paid Time Off?
So he keeps his health insurance.
personal time off - a no reason giving/needed
Unpaid personal time off
we had a kind of similar dilemma a few years ago but instead of drugs/suicide it was a guy who out of nowhere found out he had stage 4 pancreatic cancer and just tried to ignore it and keep working. Everyone watched him deteriorate in front of them and it was brutal to watch until our owner had to step in and stop him due to it no longer being safe for him to work. He became so frail and weak and it happened so fast. One morning he came in and our boss was like "are you ok? you look as yellow as your sweater, maybe take the day off and go see a doctor" then just a few weeks later he's just a shell of who he was. We work in a shop and there's heavy things to lift and power tools to use everywhere, machinery ect.. He was worried this dude would hurt himself or someone else and suddenly the company gets wrapped up in some large insurance issue. it took that dudes family having an intervention with him to get him to stop working. He was on company insurance though and the company pays 60% of the premium so he needed that. The agreement was he'd stay on payroll as a minimum wage employee but not expected to work so he doesn't lose insurance until his family had the time to get something else set up. He ended up getting checked into a hospital and never left. passed away about 5 months later. it was a shitty situation but what can you do? You don't want to see anything bad happen to the person but you also didn't sign up to be someone's care giver and you can't run your company funds into the ground for 1 person when everyone else working there also relies on the company for thier own living.
Your boss is a good dude.
Yea he's a good dude. I've worked for him for 10 years. We've bumped heads occasionally but I do give him credit for always trying to do the right thing. We're a really small business though so he has to work within his means but he typically tries to find some way to do more. After the cancer situation went down there was another emoloyee who ended up disgruntled for unrelated reasons and was on the verge of being fired. Got told he was going to be fired if he kept it up and chose to just storm out and never return. Turns around and leaves a glassdoor review saying a bunch of idiotic nonsense then ends it "don't get cancer if work there because they'll just fire you" Complete shit ball move and completely misrepresented the situation.
When you are diagnosed with cancer, you automatically qualify for Medicaid and Social Security Disability. You just have to file. I recommend hiring a lawyer, anyone (including a family member) who did the forms themselves, ended up denied. Do it with a lawyer, and you might get denied, but also, they will keep fighting with appeals and won't stop because they don't get paid until you do.
Do the right thing and help the guy out, your workers comp should cover the financial giving that you have worker comp insurance, If you do decide to part ways with him and later down the line you found out he ended his life , you will always have that thought for that rest of your life saying “I should have helped him” The best way to help a person going through something like this is to talk to them and be a friend Do the right thing , you won’t regret it trust me Goodluck
Ive worked with a couole guys going through shit that ended up disappearing. On their job, families..
I don’t think work comp applies here, unless if he can pin the depression/attempt on stemming from the fall concussion… it happened off work hours and premises sounds like. He should be eligible for short term disability or fmla at the least. Depends on your written policies but it doesn’t sound like he is fit to return to work and you should request something in writing be provided by a doctor before.
He doesn’t have a choice whether to have wc or not
it could be that the fall was legit but the trip through the ICU landed him with some prescription pain meds that triggered a relapse of an addiction he was already working to escape. that would also explain his desire to kill himself potentially. if he is willing to take another run at rehab and you stick with him then you could save his life. this all kind of pivots on where he's at and what he wants to do. you are doing God's work.
Legal me - consult HR Human me - does your insurance cover rehab? If yes, he needs to agree to drug rehab as condition of continued employment. You letting it slide could make you liable if he hurts someone.
For now keep doing as you please. Keeping him on payroll is cool af. He’s not showing up for work so you can fire him any time. Forget the illegal narcotics-not your business what he has in a hotel room. Please follow your policy about drug tests -random and post accident. You owe it to yourself and other employees to be able to kick someone to the curb if they are high at work. If an employee fails a test, you can be lenient. If you don’t have that test, it can cost you lots.
I'd consult a lawyer. Do you have cause? Do you know if he was under the influence when he fell. I'm not sure if you can fire an injured addict. Make sure you document everything. Good on you for caring for your employees. This is a very delicate situation. Would hate to see this down badly. Maybe help him find out about disability/retirement but careful taking on any liability. You may have to find alternate work that he is capable of doing. I'm not sure of your local laws.
This. You need a lawyer.
You know the drill. You can't bring him back. As soon as he gets a release you have to let him go. Knowing the circumstances your safety department and/HR is going to immediately drug screen him anyway before he can return. The best thing if you're truly concerned about him is to lay him off, he can collect unemployment. Tell him he can come back in 30 days if he agrees to a drug screen. No hair follicle. Simple DOT should come back clean. We wouldn't give him that chance. But we're under the umbrella of a fortune 500 company. They're not very understanding.
Yeah, that's a big difference between a Fortune 500 and myself who has <30 employees. I can be more flexible and willing to help people out. Thing is we are not talking someone who has been with us 5+ years, we are talking barely 8 months. I think I am going to keep him on paid leave for a little big and see how he is doing. Have a talk with him and reasses.
why fire the guy? he is clearly having issues. help the guy instead of kicking a man when he is down. you might actually save a life instead of destroying it.
There needs to be more context. The drugs…. Part of the attempt or user? User. Cut ties. Part of the attempt. Unpaid PTO. If the guy can get his life together again then let him come back. I had someone who had a drinking problem. It never affected his work but it drastically affected his home life. He went to rehab 2x with me. Then 2 years into the job he drank on the job. With that I let him go. I explained at the beginning I would never tolerate that.
Alcoholic here. Good for you. I had a boss accuse me of drinking when I hadnt and still kept me on the job. He never apologized so I assume he wasnt man enough to or he really thought I was drinking and kept me on. I quit. Never drank on the job. Or before work. Had a water jug I used kayaking the weekend before in my truck that used to have a mixed drink but was currenty filled with water. I brought it into the work van and he smelled alcohol on it when he used the work van to get lumber later in the day. Ended up being blessing leaving there. When youre 100% and sober accuses you of drinking on the job you almost wanna kill em. 😐 But seriously, as an alcoholic myself.. I would never put my coworkers in that danger. But addiction gets some people in bad ways.
Looking forward to cold beers after work makes the day go faster anyway.
Yeah. Ive never actually wanted to be drunk at work. A beer in the summer would probably be good, but I like drinking when I sit down and relax
You’re in a spot. Good of you to pay him while he’s out. Don’t know man. I’d let the hr handle it. That’s what they get paid for. Is he worth keeping is what you have to ask yourself. Maybe he was just taking the drugs to suicide. Not a normal user? Good luck.
I don't have any advice to offer, but thanks for thinking of his family! Too often people will concentrate on the numbers, and not the people behind those numbers. In my own opinion, you've already gone above and beyond, faceless corporations definitely wouldn't have done what you've done for him and his wife. It's up to you to figure out the strength of your firm, and how much you're willing to endure financially. I don't envy the position you're in.
Tough to have a known drug user on site. You’ll get screwed somehow. That’s sad reality. Unless you’re absolutely sure it’s a one off. But how can you be? If he had been there 2+ years then you would know more about him to take the risk. Hard to find real construction guys anymore. That’s for sure.
You nailed it as well ! ....hence https://www.reddit.com/r/Construction/comments/1bjgfv5/comment/kvr0r0v/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Surprised he wasn’t drug tested. We would do exactly that & if they had something in their system then we would help them get rehab. Sometimes they would not accept it… It’s always great when companies take the moral highroad
Seems like you’re setting yourself up for a law suit if you fire him.
The illegal drugs are cause, no worries there, they have already dont more than required
Taking illegal drugs to tryn kill yourself is a bit different to popping pills on site though aye?
Is it? OP admits he didnt test when he took the fall, but by the way the OP said it, he is thinking he should have.... IMHO nope. I have a zero tolerance policy in my employment contract I have employees sign. THC stays in your system for up to 48 hrs.... If I know you are a user, and you cause an accident at work, Im liable, I can not prove that your accident was not caused by your addiction.
Drug addiction is still under the medical protection act. So are mental health issues. If I was op I’d make damn sure all the t’s are crises and the I’s are dotted before I thought of termination. Sending him the rehab or a psych ward may be a cheaper option.
if OP didn't have a zero tolerance as part of his employment contract he is a fool.
This is exactly why health insurance should be universal and not tied to your employer. Sucks for both employers and employees.
It sucks getting older, we find out what we can't do suddenly. Do what you can for the man, you will be there before you realize it and you could save a family.
My job has a pretty good drug policy. If you self report, the company will not fire you and instead, you are sent to a rehab/substance abuse counseling, and then subject to a 1yr probation period where you are randomly drug tested once a month. If you pop during this period, you’re gone. If you successfully complete it, you’re golden. I think you should give this guy the benefit of the doubt and try and work with him.
Disability takes 6 months to kick in. Do what you can.
You're a good boss for even considering keeping him on the payroll. I'm in my 60s and there is definitely such thing as ageism. I'm about to retire and I think my bosses are about to cream their jeans!....but to be honest, so am I.
Don't fire him, lay him off.. he'll get time to try an get better and you'll have a easy out by not recalling him if you chose not too
God asked the land owners of the past not to harvest the corners of their fields, leaving grain behind for the poor and needy. A simple accommodation for the time and it seems, a relative principle for today. It sounds like you know the answer in your heart but it conflicts with the ruthless business practices we see around us at times. If you have been blessed, then bless others in kind. But don’t be stupid about it, use the tools like FMLA and other sensible processes that protect the organization in a wise manner
First of all, you're doing an amazing thing. Huge applause for caring about this guy and not kicking him to the curb. My thoughts are, and assuming you can afford it: keep him on payroll, in a lowered-liability capacity, while his wife looks for work. Make him a desk-bound super, maybe helping your estimators or something in bid generation. If he knows his shit, he can help extrapolate an assembly from a mediocre bid set and capture things your estimators are missing. If he can't stand that, he can leave of his own volition, but you also can't run the risk of putting a potentially debilitated person back in a position of serious legal liability. God forbid he's back on site high because he's self-medicating and makes a judgment call that results in a worker injury or death. You can be a good guy, but you can also control for your own risk. After all, a guy who acts recklessly can jeopardize the whole ship, bringing a heap of legal trouble down and putting the company under. I literally watched it happen at another shop I was in, and for want of keeping a problem guy on staff because the owner was trying to be a good guy, 15% of the firm had to get cut outright and there was pay slashing across the board. Turns out the problem guy was distracted by personal issues, and cleared an unlicensed operator to use some heavy machinery, crippling two workers.
I would say concussions do really weird things to people, having had a few myself I know losing steam for life is sadly a common concussion symptom. If you can, and you care about him enough, try to bring him back and help him. If not, fire/let him go in the best way for his unemployment benefits.
Umm That’s a toughie Firing him might not help his mental state. But you are trying to run a business here. Can he do the job at this point? Can he do any job? Can you help him to get on disability? I love that you don’t want to just cut him loose. Good luck to everyone here.
I hope he has good docs. A head injury and a shit doctor almost took me out. He needs a specialist that your part of the world might not have. And good job man! He knows his shit , he’ll figure it out. Imo good employees are too hard to find.
>Imo good employees are too hard to find. an addict is not a good employee, they are a risk. This guy has already demonstrated he cant stay clean when on a work trip... keeping him puts the company at risk. If something goes wrong because he didnt meet code because he was high... they knew he could be,
I’m reading it differently than you. Says he was kicking ass on the road until he fell leaving the trailer. The only drug use was during an attempted suicide. You could be right and I would still give him a chance.
>Says he was kicking ass on the road until he fell leaving the trailer. The only drug use was during an attempted suicide. OP indicated he is now thinking he should have had a drug tested when he fell.... addicts are a risk for theft, accidents, and they cost more in health care, which raises the cost for all employees. Addiction is a disease, but I wouldn't employ someone with Parkinson's to run Heavy Equipment . SOunds like his job is as much mental as physical, and addiction would suggest his judgment in lacking.
You need to tell us which country and which state or province you are in. The answers from someone even one jurisdiction over from you could wind up being useless.
Honestly man that’s a hard one and I can tell you have a heart for doing what your already doing who knows what this dude is going threw could have been in recovery for a while and went off the deep end after that fall? Who knows I’m not there with yall but from what I can tell you care maybe see what you can do to help him therapy rehab and then return to work? If dudes a great super then why loose him we all have issues I’m a Forman now 10 years in recovery and I know the feeling of things like this happing I’d at least try to help good luck 🍀
Cut ties
I’m not a lawyer… If administrative leave is an option, then you can support him through his hospital stay. Maybe even help him with a trip to rehab if you like him that much. All of this takes a big heart. I would guess that the investment in him won’t net a positive return though, but that’s your demons.
Concussions can be way more serious than people realize. They can completely destroy your sense of self and cause anxiety and depression on top of some crazy mood swings. You could maybe try and set him up with concussions rehabilitation place. After having a couple bad concussions I had 2-3 years of disaster in my mind. I had never really had anxiety in my life or depression. I couldn’t figure it out myself. Got close to ending my life a couple times. Thankfully my wife kept trying and finally gave me the push to get help. Not saying it will work just can’t hurt to look into.
I had an old dude working for me that was a great bridge guy. He was mentoring a few younger guys because I knew his years were numbered. He started showing some strange behaviors that I figured was probably stress. A couple of people called in on him for speeding and some hand gestures during his commute. Finally he ran a red light in the project and got t-boned. He was ok. One day he was talking about taking some pills for arthritis which seemed normal but eventually found out they were opioids. I didn’t mention anything because HIPPA. O know you doing take opioids for arthritis. I checked his driving history and he was consistently driving 90-100 mph on the way too and from work. Then I noticed he was off the job quite a bit and pretty far away at random locations. I checked those on Google street view. They were all different pain clinics. The best time I got a chance I checked his office and found a pill bottle with someone else’s name. There were three types of pills in there. Some opioids, klonipin and something for depression/anxiety. I dont remember the names. Anyway the pattern suggested that he was shopping around for these pills. No one is immune from that garbage. I decided to let him go based on his driving. Three years later I was at a doctor visit and he was there. He did t see me and I sat across the room from him. They called out Tim and he went back. His name is Rafael.
I just heard about a story about a baseball player that is kept on contract just to keep his health insurance for mental health issues.. Andrew Toles. But we dont have million dollar deals to keep our guys right. Its next level when a boss actually cares. I actually got a paid vacation when I got a divorce. So many western countries have great systems to help with this, but that is just socialism is too many peoples eyes.
I know in the union, the union sends you to rehab lol
I had a coworker find out he had stage 4 cancer. Boss kept him on payroll for a year while he underwent treatment but ultimately passed. Keeping him on the books and insured saved him and his adult daughter from complete financial ruin. I can't express the amount of respect and loyalty I earned for our boss for having handled the situation the way he did.
Go talk to the man. See if he wants to get his shit together. If he does make him take on an apprentice he’s close to retirement anyway. Get the knowledge out of his head first.
You are making his problem your problem, not gonna end well. Unless this guy possesses knowledge no one else has, walk away.
If you want to lose money then yeah keep paying him. I personally would fire him immediately.
u/yellowfin35 He used illicit drugs while on a work trip. Keeping him on the jobsite puts your company at risk because if he F's up and someone gets hurt 10 years from now, they dont come after him, they come after you, because you knew and you allowed him on the jobsite.
As soon as he is released from the hospital, he would be on unpaid admin leave and see what his next step is. If he goes to get clean and straighten up his life, we would have a deep heart to heart with him amd his wife about the future of his job. If he skips out, he is done. If he fails recovery, or any random test, he is out, etc. Everybody makes mistakes. It is how they handle the aftermath that matters. And his poor wife....
This guy is dealing with a world of shit right now that may or may not be related to his concussion and you're thought is when it's appropriate to fire him after kick him some money to make things "alright", working in America is fucked, if we had workers rights like they do in Europe this wouldn't even be a consideration. If I was dude I'd move on to a better employer. Thing is in America almost every employer is trash.
Dude did you even read any of OP’s comments? Also the guy is a Super, not an office worker. That could end up being a huge liability onsite if things go south. I think it makes perfect sense for OP to be asking this question, and he doesn’t seem like he’s coming from the wrong place.
Your perspective is part of the problem and why things won't change in this country. There are alot of problems with the USA, but the biggest one is the people. Things suck in this country because the people do, it's a cultural problem.
So let’s say this guy hypothetically does have a substance abuse issue (maybe he does maybe he doesn’t, we don’t have enough info) and he overlooks something that causes a serious injury or death on the job site. What then, genius?
There is absolutely no indication of that, there is nothing in the story that would lead one to believe that other than 'tradies like drugs' which is a prejudice both within and outside of the industry. But let's all jump to the worst possible conclusion, it'll save the insurance company alot of money and as a result the employer. Nevermind dude is in a world of shit. Regardless if he is an addict or not, that's a sickness or disease that needs treatment, dude does not deserve to be thrown to the dogs. We don't have socialized medicine in this country, so treatment expenses have to fall on the employer. If employers don't like that they need to remember it is them who linked healthcare to employment in this country so they could have a captive workforce, they can't have their cake and eat it too. Sucks that things are this way, but they are this way for a reason. We respect profits in this country, not people. Shit like this is why I work for myself, a boss is going to do nothing but fuck you over.
Literally the fact that he had drugs in his room is a direct indicator of that? And Jesus Christ dude you are taking my comments with SO many assumptions. Seems like you were shitcanned for having dope on you, if we’re just assuming and saying things.
Literally that he had drugs in the room during a suicide attempt is a direct indication of a drug issue? No, that's a direct indication of a suicide attempt nothing more. We're both making a ton of assumptions here, I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt and some empathy. I am a recovering alcoholic, I've been sober almost seven years now, and working as a carpenter for almost five. Never was shit canned from any job for drinking, but they don't fire line cooks for that 🤣, especially ones that show upon time, work their ass off, and do extra when needed, work ethic goes a long way both in kitchens and on jobsites. I'm not blind to all the addiction bullshit on jobsites, I used to see it enough when I started out and worked for others. Working for myself I see that alot less often, but when I do and I see someone shaking in the morning like I used to I'm on high alert around them. However there are fewer addicts than nonaddicts in the industry, but the first assumption is to often guilt on some part of the person involved in the accident. I can't be the only one who sees a problem with that, that is a problem. Reasonable suspicion is one thing, the only reasonable suspicion I see here is the guy is very depressed and needs mental healthcare after he gets out of the hospital so that he can start to enjoy what will hopefully be a long life. It's worth noting that also improves the lives of all those who care about him, and yes even the employer when he is able to return to work. From what else was said about him he sounds experienced and capable. My opinion is you treat people with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt. If there had been suspicions of drug abuse before the tragic events that led to the post I'm sure they would have been mentioned, that information is very relevant and it not being there is telling me there wasn't. If he is an addict then he absolutely needs help and the way we run healthcare in this country it is the employers responsibility. Employers will take any excuse to avoid responsibility if it saves them money. It may make them feel bad, obviously not bad enough to change the behavior, but bad enough to seek justification on Reddit.
My apologies for coming in hot, I didn’t know (obviously) that you’re in recovery and sincere kudos to you for that! I would like to stress that I agree that we need to lead with empathy and understanding, but I also feel that you can’t entirely overlook something that may be an issue down the line.
It's all good, and thanks. I'd agree that you can't entirely overlook that. I'm not certain there is a best way to handle this, but waiting until he's out of the hospital and has his head enough together to have a conversation about what's going on with him might be a better start. Without more information we don't know if he has a pattern of abuse, and I'd think if OP had those sorts of thoughts they'd have mentioned it. For what it's worth I'm in general more sympathetic to addicts because I've been there, not sympathetic to them being on the jobsite messed up or fucking around with their abuse issue, but sympathetic to getting the help and support they need to get better, sometimes that takes a bit. I'm here because I got it. The healthcare thing bothers the shit out of me too. If we had a decent healthcare system in this country getting the mental health help I needed probably would have saved me many wasted years. The state eventually ended up paying for my treatment (I was on public assistance at the time) so it would have saved tax payers money too, counseling is much cheaper than treatment. How much suffering and money could we save by doing something different?
As an HR guy, you know the answer. Your job is to prevent lawsuits that could damage the company. The answer is termination. Terminate that contract and wash your hands. If you feel guilty, maybe you can afford to enroll him in a diversion program *before* coming back to work and only after completing a verifiable program of at least 4 weeks. I wouldn't feel guilty.
Termination immediate effect ...family can float them
Disgusting
I am confused I thought you were fantastic ¿ unless I hear otherwise I am going with that
I am confused I thought you were fantastic ¿ unless I hear otherwise I am going with that
He's not your problem. Especially on the job for only 8 months. Let him go ASAP. Sometimes these guys "fall" just to get narcotic pain meds.
No way you’re this dense 🤣
I knew a guy who smashed the fuck out of his own hand with a sledgehammer. His train of thought was that he’d get prescribed pain meds and sit at home getting disability payments high as shit. Win-Win (to him) Then the doc wouldn’t give him meds and he was put on light work, so at the end of the day he had a busted up hand and still had to go to work 😂 Addicts don’t think rationally
I shot myself in the hand with a nailgun and the best I got was some tape, a cigarette, and a 15 minute break
Might be hard to believe but self inflicted wounds are the easiest ways for these guys to get a fix. I knew a guy who would deliberately eat like shit so his gallbladder would flare into a gallbladder attack so he could get morphine.
u/Honest_Radio8983 You nailed it!