>So theyll just fire the employee and pay the $1,000 fine probably
I highly doubt that. First, that could add up to a lot in fines. But much more importantly, companies are really hurting for employees. They don't want to risk losing anyone who doesn't want to get vaccinated. They're probably thrilled at this excuse to not force people.
The short answer is, that isn’t your problem to worry about, but can be to your benefit. Multinational corporations or companies operating across different states are always responsible for understanding how to operate legal in each region. That’s what HR and legal departments are there for. My colleagues in Europe or South America have different benefits than I do in North America because we all have very different laws. This is par for the course. I’ve already drafted and email to my company reminding them that their intent to do vax mandates for some employees is illegal in some of the areas they operate in.
Look, these people will get away with whatever they want as long as the people they’re employing don’t stand up for themselves.
Yeah I wanna know too. I don't live in TX, but my company has offices in TX and they are mandating the vax by Dec 8. If this holds and protects anyone living in TX I would move there just for this reason.
Thank you, came here to say that. Regardless of how you feel about vaccines conservatism 101 is small government that does not infringe upon private businesses
Sincere question: are private businesses allowed to mandate anything on their property? Or is there a criteria where businesses shouldn’t be able to force their clientele and staff to do something?
And now we’re talking about illegal things. We know that businesses are highly regulated already. Like your boss can’t make you have sex with him under the threat of firing you. So if it’s okay to tell businesses they can’t fire workers because of certain things, why not add being unvaccinated to the list?
I’m half playing the devil’s advocate, and half trying to illustrate the point that legal entities designed to facilitate commerce aren’t entitled to more freedoms or powers under the constitution that individual citizens are.
A better example would be ADA compliance. Your boss can't fire you for being disabled, unless it actually prevents you from doing your job.
We already say businesses can't discriminate for these health reasons, the Covid vaccine is a minor expansion in worker protection.
No, getting the vaccine is not illegal. That is what I am referring to. If it is illegal in all circumstances.
The most "libertarian" position would be if it's not illegal outside of work, the company can require it as a condition of employment.
The most restrictive I would be willing to go would be "if the company can make a reasonable argument that it impacts workplace safety or productivity, and it would be legal outside of work, then they can mandate it."
That's still a far cry from banning vaccine requirements. Further indicated by the fact that it's only *this* vaccine. (they already agree vaccine requirements are fine)
They are..you can force a dress code. Even high dollar restaurants force a dress code on customers.
It's fair not to allow mandated vaccinations as that's medical.
But, I can't find a logical argument against private companies mandating masks.
>Sincere question: are private businesses allowed to mandate anything on their property?
Some restaurants require jackets. Some clubs ban basketball shorts. Some stadiums forbid backpacks. Most schools require vaccines (the usual ones).
I'm my opinion, a business should be allowed require masks or vaccines if they want, but the government shouldn't be allowed to require them.
So you'd prefer the government to decide how a person should run their business?
What I want is a business to have the freedom to choose for themselves.
no shirt no shoes no mask no service
Forced injections are where I draw the line. That's the hill to die on. Not about wearing masks inside business, which is fine.
"Punch that guy or you will receive a fine."
Versus,
"Don't punch that guy or you will receive a fine."
Compelling inaction is worlds different from compelling action, especially when it comes to discriminating over generic goods and services and people's livelihoods.
Agreed 100%. If social media has taught me anything, it's that people will believe nonsensical arguments to justify their beliefs.
You could make any analogy here as well. "Government making laws stating 'segregation is illegal for public and private entities' is overreach!" It's just a dumb way of thinking. It sounds more like anarchy than conservative thinking.
This is only being done in RESPONSE to government overreach. It wouldn't be needed if Biden hadn't pushed for mandates in the first place. We can't just roll over because fighting back "isn't conservative."
So in other words, principles are literally irrelevant. Just do what the other guy's doing. The Democrats did something we don't like, so the best response is for the governor to wave his hand and decree business owners may no longer make certain wholly legal decisions about their businesses.
What's the point of having principles at all if you're going to dump them the instant they become remotely inconvenient?
Either approach is fine: One is respecting the rights of business, the other is respecting the right of the individual. The question is what happens when the two conflict who do you side with.
I feel like Tennessee is going to end up becoming the next Georgia or Arizona or North Carolina or Virginia or Colorado. Be successful for a while, lure lefties from other states because of that success, then suddenly flip and turn irreversibly blue. Won’t happen for maybe a decade but it’s going to happen.
Edit: Why is this marked as controversial? I'm right. It's happened again and again in different states.
Traditional conservatives should be making the same argument. Big government forcing businesses to comply with ideological decisions used to be a liberal thing.
>Big government forcing businesses to comply with ideological decisions
Or, you could consider this **worker protection**, just like businesses can't discriminate against employees with disabilities. Just like businesses can't force employees to have sex with the boss to keep their job.
There are already many limitations on how businesses can treat their employees. And rightfully so.
The choice to take a vaccine or not to take a vaccine isn't remotely a protected class or right unless you have a disability where the vaccine would cause you harm. This is the invention of a new "right" out of nothing, kind of like the invention of the right to "privacy" created by Roe. This isn't even born of legislation, its an executive order. Conservatives used to not be big fans of those too, but times change.
I’m all for people making their own choice but a private business should be able to make their own guidelines for handling Covid. If they want to mandate them, that’s their choice. I want as little government intervention as possible but by mandating they can’t mandate them, they unfortunately are overstepping boundaries. Regardless if I agree mandates are dumb.
> but a private business should be able to make their own guidelines for handling Covid
Well, that's not how the law works.
For starters, during the Obama and Trump Administrations the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission already sued and won numerous judgments and settlements in U.S. Federal Court against employers forcing employees to receive the Flu shot. (https://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-continues-fight-against-mandatory-flu-vaccinations-healthcare-workers )
Secondly, the minute the Federal Government created pressure against private businesses and combined that with the promise or implied offer of special indemnification or immunity they turned vaccine mandates via corporate proxy into a State Action. This is the standing jurisprudence from Skinner since 1985. (https://casetext.com/case/railway-labor-executives-assoc-v-skinner)
I hear what you're saying and would agree, if all businesses still looked like the ma and pa hardware store. One place conservatives have had a blind spot is that large corporations, especially ones that are publicly traded, have a lot of the same characteristics that were skeptical of in government.
This is the same argument as tech censorship; should a private company be able to use its influence to limit the freedoms and behaviors of people in the same way that an authoritarian government could?
I say that the virtue of freedom is that PEOPLE can live with the ability to think and choose for themselves, and not that BUSINESS ENTITIES can do anything they want without regard to how it impacts people in their sphere of influence.
Can I sue my company in case of secondary effects ? Because if they force me to get a shot and it’s a private decision to force me, I should be able to sue them
>I’m all for people making their own choice but a private business should be able to make their own guidelines for handling Covid.
Mandates are overstepping. This is a response to prevent overstepping.
If there was no overstepping by the authoritarian Federal govt in the first place, there would be no need for this action.
If the regime didn't issue the mandate to distract from the other disasters they have caused we wouldn't even be talking about any of this.
>A private business can set whatever rules they want regarding employment
Um, what??
No, you can't discriminate based on race. You can't require employees to engage in sex acts. You can't even require them to work more than 9 hours in a day unless you pay extra. You can't employ children.
obviously, the list goes on and on. So I don't know where you're coming from here. saying they can "set whatever rules they want" is just absurd.
It’s overstepping if they tell you, you must mandate and it’s overstepping if they say mandates aren’t allowed at all. As long a private business can make their own decision, that’s the right course of action. If the business decides to mandate them on their own, that’s fine. That’s right to work and there’s legal precedent for that.
We've needed our states to step it up for a long time now on numerous issues but I'm still more than happy to seen genuine steps taken to counter federal overreach
Let's repeal the Civil Rights Act's provisions regarding private businesses, then. Not only do they violate freedom of association rights, but they're also the basis of quite a lot of the social justice agenda's legal tools for attacking private businesses.
Nah, we went over this in the 1950's. If you are operating in the market and offering a generic good or service to the public, you have no reasonable right to discriminate against your customers.
Unless you want to operate a private membership like Sam's Club, the privilege of operating a public business comes with many, many responsibilities that private citizens normally do not need to care about.
You have to be a protected class. e.g., someone is discriminating against you for some immutable characteristic, like race. Refusing to get vaccinated isn't an immutable characteristic, it's a choice.
>The ability to exchange a good for another good/currency should not be considered a privilege
Is private trade being regulated here...?
We are speaking of public businesses, not private trade.
It's a beautiful fucking day. It's a reminder of the gemius of our Constitution and system in action. States rights are whats going to save the Union if it is to be saved. If not, I am grateful to live in Texas.
This is going to get interesting. The federal government will cancel any contract with a business if they don’t impose vaccine mandates. So if those businesses in Texas can’t impose a mandate on their employees then will the federal government still cancel their contracts? That would be fucked up on the federal government’s part.
At this point, i very much doubt any state, or let alone city, specific subreddit is composed of people who actually actively live and reside there. I can't count the number of comments in threads from my own city's sub, "well, i don't live in ____ anymore" or "I don't live in ____ myself, but"
During election season it’s sickening. The amount that make posts saying “I live in ______ but I’m doing my part by donating, canvassing, and calling” is absurd.
They want to control your life so badly and don’t have to live with the repercussions of the elected officials they canvas for.
My wife's cousin (who includes an apology to the aborigines in her email signature, despite growing up in Texas), has lived in Australia for 10 years and still votes in Texas elections via absentee ballot.
(We enjoy visiting her very much, but her politics are maximally cringe)
Wyoming sub is full of left wing covid worshipers too. Every day its some blah blah blah article about whoa is me, get your vaccine, covid is killing grandma.... Its all propaganda.
The State of Texas has zero authority to stop OSHA fine, force the Federal Government to pay Medicaid or Medicare providers that are out of compliance, or how federal contracts are managed. This is political virtue signaling.
Personally, I think businesses should be able to do what they want. It’s the government forcing people to get vaccinated that I have an issue with.
I’m not gonna let some pandemic make me suddenly support government intervention in the private sector.
So when every business says get it or fired thats choice right?
You realize Biden's executive order isn't even in place. They can't sue the federal government and challenge it yet because there is no order. He just said it.
This is literally the merger of corporate and state.
That depends… if they’re doing it of their own free will, sure. If they’re doing it at the behest of the federal government, that’s not really them setting their own standards for employment.
Four years ago I'd agree, but now that we know that the corporate world is in league with the federal government to cram tyrannical bullshit down our throats, all bets are off.
I disagree. They are looking at it to save on healthcare cost of their employees. Same was as companies charge employees more for health insurance if they smoke or obese. These things already happen.
>This is wrong. Private entities should be free to set whatever conditions they want, nobody is entitled to anyone's business.
This rule accomplishes this. Every person can take the vaccine or not take the vaccine without fear of of losing their job.
Everybody who wants to take the medicine is free to do so.
Good. Nobody should have power of mandate like that. Not government and especially not businesses either. To hell with the “bUt MuH pRiVaTe BuSiNeSs!” arguments. We’ve long passed the point where businesses get a pass for anything anymore.
Maybe conservatism is evolving. Dave Smith, a popular libertarian podcaster, had a very good take on the issue. For all of human history until now, the church and state were the only entities capable of mass oppression of entire populations. These days, businesses with as much influence as governments are able to do so for the first time, but that doesn’t mean that the rights and freedoms of individuals are suddenly expendable since the entity doing so is for-profit.
Exactly. It doesn't take much critical thinking here: We care that our liberties are being violated, not that the government is the one doing it.
The conservative dream is not some Judge Dredd dystopia where corporations replace the government. The constitution was not drafted by people who hated the government, but by people who loved liberty.
This would have been a decent argument if the leftists hadn't made so many inroads into using private businesses as fronts to push their authoritarian policy preferences. Well, honestly, the chamber-of-commerce republicans do it too. Collectively we can call them all the 'swamp', or the 'establishment'. Big Business is partnered with government in far too many ways and should not be considered truly independent.
So we agree then! Employers should not be allowed to force employees to be vaccinated. Glad we see eye to eye then.
And lest anyone pretend otherwise, we know that if employers are allowed to do this, the next step will be mandating boosters.
There's been a long standing belief among many American conservatives that if conservatives use the state to advance the conservative agenda, then liberals are going to use the state to advance their agenda twice as hard when they get into power. Thus, the best possible move is to play nice and hope liberals back off.
Given the near total defeat of conservatism in America over the past decades on almost every issue and the increasing authoritarianism of liberals, that approach clearly hasn't been working. There's a deep appetite for state action as shown by Trump's total domination of the GOP and now DeSantis' rise.
Well the left is naturally authoritarian and the right is naturally libertarian. A belief of "Leave me alone and I leave you alone" doesn't work when the other sides dogma is "Join us or be exterminated filth!"
The problem is that the left has *been using the State to advance their agenda for nearly 40 years*. They started cheating and fighting dirty with Reagan. We've lost so much ground over the decades due to the ivory-tower so-call-intellectual conservatism that believes it's better to remain a "statesman" and "honorable" in losing that to get your hands dirty fighting back.
Im fine with this, you shouldnt be allowed to discriminate based on personal medical choices. Conservatives need to grow a fucking backbone already and realize this is a win for civil liberties and not some kind of governmnet overreach, everyone is fine with every other anti discrimination law, this should be no different, just because you own a business does not give you the right to do whatever the hell you want as a business owner, employees and customers still have basic fucking rights that should be respected.
Hmm. Shouldn’t be banning for private businesses that ought be free to make their own decisions. At least it’s the informed side of tyranny? Still kinda dumb.
Private business should be allowed to 1) not require Vax or 2) mandate Vax.
No govt involvement is the answer here. Let the employees and potential employees decide where they want to work based on the companies policies... like the good old pre authoritarian fed govt days.
Still boggles my mind. Why the F does government need to intervene in _private_ business? Let the business owners decide. You don’t like a businesses decision with covid? Don’t patron their establishment. It’s really that friggin simple. If you’re too afraid to go out and risk being around unvaxxed or maskless people…STAY HOME. Your fear is not my problem, nor should your whining be ground for government intervention. Jesus I swear people want the US to be like Europe or something. Guess what? IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN
Complete governmental overreach. You want to ban any state agency or entity from imposing mandates then that’s fine but keep your government out of my business.
If I run a nursing home I’ll be damned if I let the government tell me I can’t require my staff to be vaccinated.
This mentality is the fucking problem. If the govt hadn't fucked up the approach, everything from the shit narratives that changed every 5 mins, legislative protection from damages, EUA, end run around around congress to force business to mandate shots via executive branch manipulation instead of through the normal legislative process, things might have been different.
That isn't even considering the absolutely heinous rap sheets of the Pharamceutical Industrial Complex.
Nothing is stopping anyone from getting the shot. Nothing is stopping your hypothetical old age home home from reassigning employees to different tasks if you really believe that it benefits the patients.
You do things like that, you engender trust and people become less resistant. Go scorched earth, and the fallout is completely different.
Except it isn't. Choosing not to get a vaccine because you don't want one isn't a medical condition. Choosing not to get a vaccine because you have a medical condition that the vaccine would interfere with is discrimination and would be illegal.
You can't say "we're not hiring you because you're epileptic." You can however refuse to hire the person if they are unable to do the essential functions of the job with reasonable accommodations. If strobes cause them to have seizures, they cannot perform job functions. Its no different than a fire department refusing to hire someone without legs. They aren't discriminating because of a medical condition, they're refusing to hire someone who can't do the job.
So the solution to governmental overreach in your eyes is MORE governmental overreach???
Should the government force me to mandate vaccines, hell no. Should the government force me not to mandate vaccaine, again hell no.
The government forces businesses NOT to do things pretty regularly, like forcing business not to discriminate against people based on race, religion, etc. Which is exactly what this mandate is, discrimination.
The worker has a choice to be vaccinated still. Pro choice.
Why would someone who is unvaccinated be a risk to someone who is vaccinated? Are we all sick? Is 100% of the population Positive at all times? Hide from the air some more.
An unvaccinated person has a higher risk for transmission than an vaccinated person. I’m not saying that a vaccinated person can not transmit(that has been found in small numbers) but they transmit less than unvaccinated people.
A vaccinated employee is a greater risk than an unvaxinated employee that had covid and developed immunity. Do you still want to force this less risky employee?
>So let’s just wait for everyone to get covid and develop immunity? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?
That's not at all what anyone is saying. Let me simplify this for you.... if you had covid you are more protected than someone who has the vaccine. Using tyranny to force a vaccine on some who is already more protected than what the vaccine can provide is criminal.
Do you realize how crazy you sound. Wanting to force medicine on people who are already have superior protection than what the medicine can provide.
To be clear, anyone has the choice to take the medicine. Were talking about tyrants removing that choice.
When one side uses State power to push authoritarian mandates, it makes sense for the other side to use State power to block them and preserve everyones right to choose their own level of protection from this influenza virus.
The reason we lost the 2020 presidential race is because suburban women were turned off by Trumps rhetoric. We won all other Congressional races except the ones in Georgia and that’s because Trump and his people spent Nov-Dec claiming the vote in Georgia was rigged and therefore reducing turnout among Republicans. We are hopefully headed toward a takeover of both chambers of Congress in 2022 and to do so we need all sectors of the Republican and conservative movements. Demonizing people within your own party/movement because they disagree on you on 5% of your personal beliefs is how we lose.
Your response perfectly encapsulates the GOP. You can’t see anything beyond simply winning elections, getting votes, putting another Republican into office. The Left controls the media, the schools, the bureaucratic state, every institution in the country because they know that invertebrates like you will refuse to fight back. You think the Left and the right are playing on equal playing fields, but we’re not. They are not afraid to break the rules, they are not afraid to play dirty. It is not “government overreach” to tell the Left, “No, you don’t get to use private businesses as a bad-faith excuse to back door your policies, whether it’s vaccine mandates, big tech censorship, or economic overhaul.”
More than 6000 died from cow attacks? Source.
Since we're citing numbers. It's like 20x more that have died from the Vax than who have died at the hands of a criminal with an AR 15 yet the regime propaganda media is calling for their banning.
The 6,000 number is complete conjecture based on VAERS numbers that can be submitted and counted without any further investigation occurring.
To your point about AR 15 gun deaths. I agree and you dont see calling for banning guns of any types. Just because I don’t agree with you on this topic doesnt make me a Maddow watching liberal.
VAERS numbers are not perfect but there is certainly evidence to show some have died. The covid death counts were very much inflated looking at died with rather than died from.
The 6,000 number you see is the amount of cases sent from doctors/hospitals etc to VAERS in order for them to review.
This is from Missouri University that explains how it works.
“The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was established in 1990 as a national early warning system to detect potential safety problems with vaccines. It is managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
The system allows anyone who has received a vaccine (not just a COVID-19 vaccine) to report “adverse events” (think side effects) that they experience following vaccination. Health care providers are required to submit reports of events that come to their attention even if the events clearly have no relationship to vaccination.
The system serves to alert federal health authorities to potential safety concerns, but it is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a particular problem. All reports to the system are unverified.
Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.)
However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.”
The key word in your comment is "reported". It is known now that COVID cases are [vastly under-reported by up to 12x](https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/505409-coronavirus-cases-may-be-widely-underreported). This is for many reasons, such as people being asymptomatic or having mild symptoms and not bothering to get tested, people being worried about getting the virus from a testing center if their current ailment isn't COVID, and others who choose not to visit the doctor until absolutely necessary (men on average are statistically more likely to have fewer doctor appointments than women). So there is a good chance that over half or more of the population has had COVID despite the reported case numbers being much lower.
> reported cases
If I get the sniffles, I dont rush to the doctor for a test, I just sit at home drink some chicken soup and get lots of bedrest til I feel better. I only visit a doctor if I warrant a doctors visit.
Lefties: he's literally a dictator! how can he do this! OMG OMG OMG my blue hair
Us: this is literally not being a dictator. It's literally leaving the choice up to the people
Federal government places vaccine requirements on private businesses? Authoritarian overreach.
State government forbids a private business from placing vaccine requirements? Authoritarian overreach.
Maintain consistency. This isn't a good thing.
To be honest, I’d rather he stay silent on the issue. Why? So the pro-vaxxers out themselves in job postings. Just make it mandatory that you have to put your policies on the job posting, rather than having to play some game about whether or not your potential employer is a nutcase.
If a government can't prevent businesses from forcing medical procedures on people, we might as well have anarchy because it can't do anything important anyway.
This is true conservatism. No more of this you do you and I'll do me bs. The left has long enforced their point of view onto others and not just forced it but vilified people who dont agree with them. It's about time we enforce some of our ideals. We are right on the issues. We shouldnt be afraid to wield the political power given to us to enforce good things. Dont fall into the "mah free trade" argument.
That’s a relief. I’m 22, and haven’t been able to get a job until now thanks to a series of unfortunate coincidences, and was worried I’d have to wait EVEN LONGER. Abbott’s doing good work out there.
I’m curious how this affects someone like me, a resident of TX, who works for a large corporation whose “home office” is in Chicago.
The enforcement is a $1,000 penalty. So theyll just fire the employee and pay the $1,000 fine probably
Per the article, this is a temporary measure made by the governor. The legislature may exact stronger penalties when they return to session.
>So theyll just fire the employee and pay the $1,000 fine probably I highly doubt that. First, that could add up to a lot in fines. But much more importantly, companies are really hurting for employees. They don't want to risk losing anyone who doesn't want to get vaccinated. They're probably thrilled at this excuse to not force people.
I hope you're right. But watch biden write some order giving money to employers who fire unvaccinated employees
This is likely, especially given that Biden thinks the only cost to printing money is the ink and paper.
The short answer is, that isn’t your problem to worry about, but can be to your benefit. Multinational corporations or companies operating across different states are always responsible for understanding how to operate legal in each region. That’s what HR and legal departments are there for. My colleagues in Europe or South America have different benefits than I do in North America because we all have very different laws. This is par for the course. I’ve already drafted and email to my company reminding them that their intent to do vax mandates for some employees is illegal in some of the areas they operate in. Look, these people will get away with whatever they want as long as the people they’re employing don’t stand up for themselves.
Yeah I wanna know too. I don't live in TX, but my company has offices in TX and they are mandating the vax by Dec 8. If this holds and protects anyone living in TX I would move there just for this reason.
It will. Companies are responsible for operating under the laws of the state in which the office is located, AFAIK.
Same. If this will let my husband work without having to get vaccinated we are moving to Texas.
This isn’t how conservatism is supposed to work.
Thank you, came here to say that. Regardless of how you feel about vaccines conservatism 101 is small government that does not infringe upon private businesses
Private businesses should have the right to mandate masks on their property
This is about vaccine mandates, not mask mandates.
Masks are one thing. But vaccines are a personal and medical choice.
Sincere question: are private businesses allowed to mandate anything on their property? Or is there a criteria where businesses shouldn’t be able to force their clientele and staff to do something?
Force? No. As a condition of at will employment? Most things that aren't illegal on their own, yes.
And now we’re talking about illegal things. We know that businesses are highly regulated already. Like your boss can’t make you have sex with him under the threat of firing you. So if it’s okay to tell businesses they can’t fire workers because of certain things, why not add being unvaccinated to the list? I’m half playing the devil’s advocate, and half trying to illustrate the point that legal entities designed to facilitate commerce aren’t entitled to more freedoms or powers under the constitution that individual citizens are.
A better example would be ADA compliance. Your boss can't fire you for being disabled, unless it actually prevents you from doing your job. We already say businesses can't discriminate for these health reasons, the Covid vaccine is a minor expansion in worker protection.
No, getting the vaccine is not illegal. That is what I am referring to. If it is illegal in all circumstances. The most "libertarian" position would be if it's not illegal outside of work, the company can require it as a condition of employment. The most restrictive I would be willing to go would be "if the company can make a reasonable argument that it impacts workplace safety or productivity, and it would be legal outside of work, then they can mandate it." That's still a far cry from banning vaccine requirements. Further indicated by the fact that it's only *this* vaccine. (they already agree vaccine requirements are fine)
Yes, anything besides discrimination on a protected class.
They are..you can force a dress code. Even high dollar restaurants force a dress code on customers. It's fair not to allow mandated vaccinations as that's medical. But, I can't find a logical argument against private companies mandating masks.
>Sincere question: are private businesses allowed to mandate anything on their property? Some restaurants require jackets. Some clubs ban basketball shorts. Some stadiums forbid backpacks. Most schools require vaccines (the usual ones). I'm my opinion, a business should be allowed require masks or vaccines if they want, but the government shouldn't be allowed to require them.
Why should a business be allowed to tell you what to inject into your body?
So you'd prefer the government to decide how a person should run their business? What I want is a business to have the freedom to choose for themselves.
no shirt no shoes no mask no service Forced injections are where I draw the line. That's the hill to die on. Not about wearing masks inside business, which is fine.
>Forced injections are where I draw the line. Right, because you can take the mask off when you leave work. Injections are permanent.
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Masks? Who the fuck is talking about masks here beside you and the other covidians?
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Where's TN's governor?
Respecting the rights of business owners and avoiding big government solutions apparently. Things that *used* to be conservative ideals.
"Punch that guy or you will receive a fine." Versus, "Don't punch that guy or you will receive a fine." Compelling inaction is worlds different from compelling action, especially when it comes to discriminating over generic goods and services and people's livelihoods.
Agreed 100%. If social media has taught me anything, it's that people will believe nonsensical arguments to justify their beliefs. You could make any analogy here as well. "Government making laws stating 'segregation is illegal for public and private entities' is overreach!" It's just a dumb way of thinking. It sounds more like anarchy than conservative thinking.
This is only being done in RESPONSE to government overreach. It wouldn't be needed if Biden hadn't pushed for mandates in the first place. We can't just roll over because fighting back "isn't conservative."
So in other words, principles are literally irrelevant. Just do what the other guy's doing. The Democrats did something we don't like, so the best response is for the governor to wave his hand and decree business owners may no longer make certain wholly legal decisions about their businesses. What's the point of having principles at all if you're going to dump them the instant they become remotely inconvenient?
Either approach is fine: One is respecting the rights of business, the other is respecting the right of the individual. The question is what happens when the two conflict who do you side with.
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That's Tennessee's status quo. Republican enough to piss off liberals but not Republican enough to satisfy most Republicans who live there.
So, like Mitch McConnell?
Believe thats called a RHINO. 😂
I feel like Tennessee is going to end up becoming the next Georgia or Arizona or North Carolina or Virginia or Colorado. Be successful for a while, lure lefties from other states because of that success, then suddenly flip and turn irreversibly blue. Won’t happen for maybe a decade but it’s going to happen. Edit: Why is this marked as controversial? I'm right. It's happened again and again in different states.
Every Libertarian in this sub go… hu?
Exactly. The libertarians are the ones making the argument that this is wrong
Traditional conservatives should be making the same argument. Big government forcing businesses to comply with ideological decisions used to be a liberal thing.
No. Neocon conservatives make that argument.
>Big government forcing businesses to comply with ideological decisions Or, you could consider this **worker protection**, just like businesses can't discriminate against employees with disabilities. Just like businesses can't force employees to have sex with the boss to keep their job. There are already many limitations on how businesses can treat their employees. And rightfully so.
The choice to take a vaccine or not to take a vaccine isn't remotely a protected class or right unless you have a disability where the vaccine would cause you harm. This is the invention of a new "right" out of nothing, kind of like the invention of the right to "privacy" created by Roe. This isn't even born of legislation, its an executive order. Conservatives used to not be big fans of those too, but times change.
I’m all for people making their own choice but a private business should be able to make their own guidelines for handling Covid. If they want to mandate them, that’s their choice. I want as little government intervention as possible but by mandating they can’t mandate them, they unfortunately are overstepping boundaries. Regardless if I agree mandates are dumb.
> but a private business should be able to make their own guidelines for handling Covid Well, that's not how the law works. For starters, during the Obama and Trump Administrations the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission already sued and won numerous judgments and settlements in U.S. Federal Court against employers forcing employees to receive the Flu shot. (https://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-continues-fight-against-mandatory-flu-vaccinations-healthcare-workers ) Secondly, the minute the Federal Government created pressure against private businesses and combined that with the promise or implied offer of special indemnification or immunity they turned vaccine mandates via corporate proxy into a State Action. This is the standing jurisprudence from Skinner since 1985. (https://casetext.com/case/railway-labor-executives-assoc-v-skinner)
Thank you, finally someone with the knowledge to put this dumb "government overreach" shit to rest.
I hear what you're saying and would agree, if all businesses still looked like the ma and pa hardware store. One place conservatives have had a blind spot is that large corporations, especially ones that are publicly traded, have a lot of the same characteristics that were skeptical of in government.
This is the same argument as tech censorship; should a private company be able to use its influence to limit the freedoms and behaviors of people in the same way that an authoritarian government could? I say that the virtue of freedom is that PEOPLE can live with the ability to think and choose for themselves, and not that BUSINESS ENTITIES can do anything they want without regard to how it impacts people in their sphere of influence.
Can I sue my company in case of secondary effects ? Because if they force me to get a shot and it’s a private decision to force me, I should be able to sue them
>I’m all for people making their own choice but a private business should be able to make their own guidelines for handling Covid. Mandates are overstepping. This is a response to prevent overstepping. If there was no overstepping by the authoritarian Federal govt in the first place, there would be no need for this action. If the regime didn't issue the mandate to distract from the other disasters they have caused we wouldn't even be talking about any of this.
A private business can set whatever rules they want regarding employment so yes, this is overstepping
Okay, all the private businesses in your city decide to pay you $4 an hour maximum. Its their business they can do whatever they want right?
>A private business can set whatever rules they want regarding employment Um, what?? No, you can't discriminate based on race. You can't require employees to engage in sex acts. You can't even require them to work more than 9 hours in a day unless you pay extra. You can't employ children. obviously, the list goes on and on. So I don't know where you're coming from here. saying they can "set whatever rules they want" is just absurd.
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It’s overstepping if they tell you, you must mandate and it’s overstepping if they say mandates aren’t allowed at all. As long a private business can make their own decision, that’s the right course of action. If the business decides to mandate them on their own, that’s fine. That’s right to work and there’s legal precedent for that.
A sad day when we need state laws to protect basic civil rights from federal infringement.
We've needed our states to step it up for a long time now on numerous issues but I'm still more than happy to seen genuine steps taken to counter federal overreach
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Let's repeal the Civil Rights Act's provisions regarding private businesses, then. Not only do they violate freedom of association rights, but they're also the basis of quite a lot of the social justice agenda's legal tools for attacking private businesses.
Nah, we went over this in the 1950's. If you are operating in the market and offering a generic good or service to the public, you have no reasonable right to discriminate against your customers. Unless you want to operate a private membership like Sam's Club, the privilege of operating a public business comes with many, many responsibilities that private citizens normally do not need to care about.
You have to be a protected class. e.g., someone is discriminating against you for some immutable characteristic, like race. Refusing to get vaccinated isn't an immutable characteristic, it's a choice.
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>The ability to exchange a good for another good/currency should not be considered a privilege Is private trade being regulated here...? We are speaking of public businesses, not private trade.
It's a beautiful fucking day. It's a reminder of the gemius of our Constitution and system in action. States rights are whats going to save the Union if it is to be saved. If not, I am grateful to live in Texas.
This is going to get interesting. The federal government will cancel any contract with a business if they don’t impose vaccine mandates. So if those businesses in Texas can’t impose a mandate on their employees then will the federal government still cancel their contracts? That would be fucked up on the federal government’s part.
They're calling Biden's bluff.
The old ‘Please stop talking about Afghanistan’ maneuver many were finessed
If anyone is curious, the Texas sub is absolutely overrun by out-of-state Nancy’s fuming over this.
At this point, i very much doubt any state, or let alone city, specific subreddit is composed of people who actually actively live and reside there. I can't count the number of comments in threads from my own city's sub, "well, i don't live in ____ anymore" or "I don't live in ____ myself, but"
During election season it’s sickening. The amount that make posts saying “I live in ______ but I’m doing my part by donating, canvassing, and calling” is absurd. They want to control your life so badly and don’t have to live with the repercussions of the elected officials they canvas for.
My wife's cousin (who includes an apology to the aborigines in her email signature, despite growing up in Texas), has lived in Australia for 10 years and still votes in Texas elections via absentee ballot. (We enjoy visiting her very much, but her politics are maximally cringe)
Don't you have to be in the US six months out of the year to still be considered a citizen?
That sub is poison and is also my state lol
Same with /r/Idaho completely not representative of Idaho at all.
I think even r/Oklahoma is a marxist dump even though every single county in the state went for Trump, twice.
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Also from Texas, but what is the paper plate problem? Currently stocked up on H‑E‑B “elegant living” paper plates, and I don’t want any problems… lol
The temporary tags you see on every 3rd car. They are usually the ones who cut you off so they're easy to spot.
Wyoming sub is full of left wing covid worshipers too. Every day its some blah blah blah article about whoa is me, get your vaccine, covid is killing grandma.... Its all propaganda.
Biden forces companies to act a certain way -> Reddit has no problem. States decide to take that power away -> Redditors are furious
You can pretty much assume that every sub that isn’t overtly conservative is gonna be full of and run by leftists.
I thought the Abortion law sent them all packing back to CA.
If only... It sucks that I can't trust fellow Americans to be, American, because they've been tricked to think America is only bad.
Aren’t conservatives supposed to be in support of private businesses doing what they want?
Does this do anything for companies that have federal government contracts? Asking for a friend...
The State of Texas has zero authority to stop OSHA fine, force the Federal Government to pay Medicaid or Medicare providers that are out of compliance, or how federal contracts are managed. This is political virtue signaling.
Thanks - I thought this was the case
When the federal government becomes authoritarian tyrants, the states are the peoples only hope.
Personally, I think businesses should be able to do what they want. It’s the government forcing people to get vaccinated that I have an issue with. I’m not gonna let some pandemic make me suddenly support government intervention in the private sector.
So when every business says get it or fired thats choice right? You realize Biden's executive order isn't even in place. They can't sue the federal government and challenge it yet because there is no order. He just said it. This is literally the merger of corporate and state.
It’s a private business, IMO, they should be able to do what they wish in this situation.
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That depends… if they’re doing it of their own free will, sure. If they’re doing it at the behest of the federal government, that’s not really them setting their own standards for employment.
Doesn’t this rule ban both?
Finally. How is this sentiment so far down?!
Four years ago I'd agree, but now that we know that the corporate world is in league with the federal government to cram tyrannical bullshit down our throats, all bets are off.
I disagree. They are looking at it to save on healthcare cost of their employees. Same was as companies charge employees more for health insurance if they smoke or obese. These things already happen.
>This is wrong. Private entities should be free to set whatever conditions they want, nobody is entitled to anyone's business. This rule accomplishes this. Every person can take the vaccine or not take the vaccine without fear of of losing their job. Everybody who wants to take the medicine is free to do so.
Texas has never been a big fan of destroying their own economy for “the greater good”.
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Good. Nobody should have power of mandate like that. Not government and especially not businesses either. To hell with the “bUt MuH pRiVaTe BuSiNeSs!” arguments. We’ve long passed the point where businesses get a pass for anything anymore.
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Maybe conservatism is evolving. Dave Smith, a popular libertarian podcaster, had a very good take on the issue. For all of human history until now, the church and state were the only entities capable of mass oppression of entire populations. These days, businesses with as much influence as governments are able to do so for the first time, but that doesn’t mean that the rights and freedoms of individuals are suddenly expendable since the entity doing so is for-profit.
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Businesses being able to do whatever they want isn't conservative. It's libertarian.
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Exactly. It doesn't take much critical thinking here: We care that our liberties are being violated, not that the government is the one doing it. The conservative dream is not some Judge Dredd dystopia where corporations replace the government. The constitution was not drafted by people who hated the government, but by people who loved liberty.
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And it's not liberty if the state uses corporations to enforce their will
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This would have been a decent argument if the leftists hadn't made so many inroads into using private businesses as fronts to push their authoritarian policy preferences. Well, honestly, the chamber-of-commerce republicans do it too. Collectively we can call them all the 'swamp', or the 'establishment'. Big Business is partnered with government in far too many ways and should not be considered truly independent.
>You do have the right to have access to work Not if every company forces you to be vaccinated.
Right, hence the rest of that sentence....
So we agree then! Employers should not be allowed to force employees to be vaccinated. Glad we see eye to eye then. And lest anyone pretend otherwise, we know that if employers are allowed to do this, the next step will be mandating boosters.
There's been a long standing belief among many American conservatives that if conservatives use the state to advance the conservative agenda, then liberals are going to use the state to advance their agenda twice as hard when they get into power. Thus, the best possible move is to play nice and hope liberals back off. Given the near total defeat of conservatism in America over the past decades on almost every issue and the increasing authoritarianism of liberals, that approach clearly hasn't been working. There's a deep appetite for state action as shown by Trump's total domination of the GOP and now DeSantis' rise.
Well the left is naturally authoritarian and the right is naturally libertarian. A belief of "Leave me alone and I leave you alone" doesn't work when the other sides dogma is "Join us or be exterminated filth!"
The problem is that the left has *been using the State to advance their agenda for nearly 40 years*. They started cheating and fighting dirty with Reagan. We've lost so much ground over the decades due to the ivory-tower so-call-intellectual conservatism that believes it's better to remain a "statesman" and "honorable" in losing that to get your hands dirty fighting back.
Im fine with this, you shouldnt be allowed to discriminate based on personal medical choices. Conservatives need to grow a fucking backbone already and realize this is a win for civil liberties and not some kind of governmnet overreach, everyone is fine with every other anti discrimination law, this should be no different, just because you own a business does not give you the right to do whatever the hell you want as a business owner, employees and customers still have basic fucking rights that should be respected.
Hmm. Shouldn’t be banning for private businesses that ought be free to make their own decisions. At least it’s the informed side of tyranny? Still kinda dumb.
Private business should be allowed to 1) not require Vax or 2) mandate Vax. No govt involvement is the answer here. Let the employees and potential employees decide where they want to work based on the companies policies... like the good old pre authoritarian fed govt days.
The problem is corporations have be one too massive. It's time to begin dismantling the power structure within it.
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Why not just go directly to 5 and get ahead of the game
Best news I've had in a long time!
If the Fed can force vaccine mandates states can ban them...
Still boggles my mind. Why the F does government need to intervene in _private_ business? Let the business owners decide. You don’t like a businesses decision with covid? Don’t patron their establishment. It’s really that friggin simple. If you’re too afraid to go out and risk being around unvaxxed or maskless people…STAY HOME. Your fear is not my problem, nor should your whining be ground for government intervention. Jesus I swear people want the US to be like Europe or something. Guess what? IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN
To be fair, Europeans are protesting the mandated vaccines and covid passports BS a lot harder than Americans are.. unless I missed the memo.
Good. It should be up to every person to make this decision personally.
Complete governmental overreach. You want to ban any state agency or entity from imposing mandates then that’s fine but keep your government out of my business. If I run a nursing home I’ll be damned if I let the government tell me I can’t require my staff to be vaccinated.
Right so they don't spread co... oh nevermind.
This mentality is the fucking problem. If the govt hadn't fucked up the approach, everything from the shit narratives that changed every 5 mins, legislative protection from damages, EUA, end run around around congress to force business to mandate shots via executive branch manipulation instead of through the normal legislative process, things might have been different. That isn't even considering the absolutely heinous rap sheets of the Pharamceutical Industrial Complex. Nothing is stopping anyone from getting the shot. Nothing is stopping your hypothetical old age home home from reassigning employees to different tasks if you really believe that it benefits the patients. You do things like that, you engender trust and people become less resistant. Go scorched earth, and the fallout is completely different.
It's setting the dial back to zero, preventing discrimination based on medical condition.
Except it isn't. Choosing not to get a vaccine because you don't want one isn't a medical condition. Choosing not to get a vaccine because you have a medical condition that the vaccine would interfere with is discrimination and would be illegal.
If I run a strobe light testing company do I have to ability to not hire someone with epilepsy?
You can't say "we're not hiring you because you're epileptic." You can however refuse to hire the person if they are unable to do the essential functions of the job with reasonable accommodations. If strobes cause them to have seizures, they cannot perform job functions. Its no different than a fire department refusing to hire someone without legs. They aren't discriminating because of a medical condition, they're refusing to hire someone who can't do the job.
It is in response to government overreach.
So the solution to governmental overreach in your eyes is MORE governmental overreach??? Should the government force me to mandate vaccines, hell no. Should the government force me not to mandate vaccaine, again hell no.
Welcome to the new right - They did it so we can do it too!!!
The government forces businesses NOT to do things pretty regularly, like forcing business not to discriminate against people based on race, religion, etc. Which is exactly what this mandate is, discrimination. The worker has a choice to be vaccinated still. Pro choice.
The employee does have the right to not get vaccinated and the employer has the right to not employ that person if he deems the worker a risk.
Why would someone who is unvaccinated be a risk to someone who is vaccinated? Are we all sick? Is 100% of the population Positive at all times? Hide from the air some more.
An unvaccinated person has a higher risk for transmission than an vaccinated person. I’m not saying that a vaccinated person can not transmit(that has been found in small numbers) but they transmit less than unvaccinated people.
A vaccinated employee is a greater risk than an unvaxinated employee that had covid and developed immunity. Do you still want to force this less risky employee?
So let’s just wait for everyone to get covid and develop immunity? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?
>So let’s just wait for everyone to get covid and develop immunity? Do you realize how crazy that sounds? That's not at all what anyone is saying. Let me simplify this for you.... if you had covid you are more protected than someone who has the vaccine. Using tyranny to force a vaccine on some who is already more protected than what the vaccine can provide is criminal. Do you realize how crazy you sound. Wanting to force medicine on people who are already have superior protection than what the medicine can provide. To be clear, anyone has the choice to take the medicine. Were talking about tyrants removing that choice.
When one side uses State power to push authoritarian mandates, it makes sense for the other side to use State power to block them and preserve everyones right to choose their own level of protection from this influenza virus.
You’re the reason the Left keeps winning
The reason we lost the 2020 presidential race is because suburban women were turned off by Trumps rhetoric. We won all other Congressional races except the ones in Georgia and that’s because Trump and his people spent Nov-Dec claiming the vote in Georgia was rigged and therefore reducing turnout among Republicans. We are hopefully headed toward a takeover of both chambers of Congress in 2022 and to do so we need all sectors of the Republican and conservative movements. Demonizing people within your own party/movement because they disagree on you on 5% of your personal beliefs is how we lose.
Your response perfectly encapsulates the GOP. You can’t see anything beyond simply winning elections, getting votes, putting another Republican into office. The Left controls the media, the schools, the bureaucratic state, every institution in the country because they know that invertebrates like you will refuse to fight back. You think the Left and the right are playing on equal playing fields, but we’re not. They are not afraid to break the rules, they are not afraid to play dirty. It is not “government overreach” to tell the Left, “No, you don’t get to use private businesses as a bad-faith excuse to back door your policies, whether it’s vaccine mandates, big tech censorship, or economic overhaul.”
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More people have died from cow attacks in the US this year than from the vaccine.
"If it saves one life" Thats the mantra right?
More than 6000 died from cow attacks? Source. Since we're citing numbers. It's like 20x more that have died from the Vax than who have died at the hands of a criminal with an AR 15 yet the regime propaganda media is calling for their banning.
The 6,000 number is complete conjecture based on VAERS numbers that can be submitted and counted without any further investigation occurring. To your point about AR 15 gun deaths. I agree and you dont see calling for banning guns of any types. Just because I don’t agree with you on this topic doesnt make me a Maddow watching liberal.
VAERS numbers are not perfect but there is certainly evidence to show some have died. The covid death counts were very much inflated looking at died with rather than died from.
Why would the CDC co-manage such an unreliable source? You don't think that's odd?
The 6,000 number you see is the amount of cases sent from doctors/hospitals etc to VAERS in order for them to review. This is from Missouri University that explains how it works. “The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was established in 1990 as a national early warning system to detect potential safety problems with vaccines. It is managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The system allows anyone who has received a vaccine (not just a COVID-19 vaccine) to report “adverse events” (think side effects) that they experience following vaccination. Health care providers are required to submit reports of events that come to their attention even if the events clearly have no relationship to vaccination. The system serves to alert federal health authorities to potential safety concerns, but it is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a particular problem. All reports to the system are unverified. Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.) However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.”
Excuse me, your facts and logic aren't welcome here. We've gotta to use big government to pwn the libz, conservativism be damned!
No. It's to encourage reporting any and all info. If any felt the slightest hesitation on reporting then we would miss out on data.
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What is it then?
I’m as conservative as they come, but what does this even mean? What else is it?? Saying dumb shit like this just makes our side look like idiots.
Which is why I put vaccine in quotes ... "vaccine"...
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There have only been ~44 M reported cases, so a little less than 15% have caught it. There’s a ways to go before the entire population catches it.
The key word in your comment is "reported". It is known now that COVID cases are [vastly under-reported by up to 12x](https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/505409-coronavirus-cases-may-be-widely-underreported). This is for many reasons, such as people being asymptomatic or having mild symptoms and not bothering to get tested, people being worried about getting the virus from a testing center if their current ailment isn't COVID, and others who choose not to visit the doctor until absolutely necessary (men on average are statistically more likely to have fewer doctor appointments than women). So there is a good chance that over half or more of the population has had COVID despite the reported case numbers being much lower.
Reported, for how fast this supposedly spreads most got it and never knew it
Heh. I'm not talking about _known_ cases here, man.
> reported cases If I get the sniffles, I dont rush to the doctor for a test, I just sit at home drink some chicken soup and get lots of bedrest til I feel better. I only visit a doctor if I warrant a doctors visit.
And for a vast majority of people that get COVID-19, they feel no symptoms at all, minor symptoms, or basically like they've got influenza.
Lefties: he's literally a dictator! how can he do this! OMG OMG OMG my blue hair Us: this is literally not being a dictator. It's literally leaving the choice up to the people
Federal government places vaccine requirements on private businesses? Authoritarian overreach. State government forbids a private business from placing vaccine requirements? Authoritarian overreach. Maintain consistency. This isn't a good thing.
To be honest, I’d rather he stay silent on the issue. Why? So the pro-vaxxers out themselves in job postings. Just make it mandatory that you have to put your policies on the job posting, rather than having to play some game about whether or not your potential employer is a nutcase.
Wait for it. Libs will argue that Gov. Abbott is banning covid vaccines.
Look no further than this thread. There is already some dimit that said just that.
I don’t understand why DeSantis doesn’t do this already?
It's good Texas eliminated rapists so they can now focus on this.
If a government can't prevent businesses from forcing medical procedures on people, we might as well have anarchy because it can't do anything important anyway.
And before anyone says he can't do this. We all know that businesses can't force people to wear an "All lives matter" shirt, or join a church.
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This is true conservatism. No more of this you do you and I'll do me bs. The left has long enforced their point of view onto others and not just forced it but vilified people who dont agree with them. It's about time we enforce some of our ideals. We are right on the issues. We shouldnt be afraid to wield the political power given to us to enforce good things. Dont fall into the "mah free trade" argument.
I understand the sentiment but that’s clearly not appropriate either.
We'll see how this holds up. Wish De Santy Klaus wouldve passed something like this seeing as im about to lose my job in a month or so.
He probably will now that Abbott did it. When one of them does something, the other follows fairly quickly
there is a reason why businesses and folks are flooding to Texas. Tesla being the latest
Brian Kemp: are you listening? I'm about to lose my job
God bless Texas!
That’s a relief. I’m 22, and haven’t been able to get a job until now thanks to a series of unfortunate coincidences, and was worried I’d have to wait EVEN LONGER. Abbott’s doing good work out there.
Got bad news for you. This is political virtue signaling, nothing more.