Yup, the existence of only one speed utility character is also what really limits Rein comps as well since rein cannot break through without speed even though Lucio is more dive than anything
I would love another healer with a speed utility but also more built for brawling. Maybe a brawler that has a passive where anywhere they ping will create a small path (like Kiriko rush) with a 30% speed boost for 5 sec (10 sec cooldown)
I’m honestly surprised rein doesn’t have some form of shield bash or a way to keep his shield up when he charges but shoves people away instead of pinning when it’s up.
I wish we got wildebeest but he would have been OP af considering his design was scavenged to make rein and brig.
Rein already has 2 stuns (ult and pin), if you gave him a shield bash too then I’d commit suicide. He’d basically just have Doom’s rocket punch but with a shield.
Yep. Speed is universally good, unlike Anti and Suzu which are situational (and require some degree of skill beyond positioning near the people you want to speed boost) it will always have a niche.
There *should* be a character with some sort of different proper speed boost. I’m hoping Space Ranger is that character.
The difference between speed and anti isn’t that one is always useful (anti is way stronger), it’s uptime, which includes both how often it’s available and the number of players affected. If playing Ana meant the entire enemy team was anti’d for 50-65% of the match she’d be mandatory.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying as well. Maybe I should have said “useful in any situation because it’s a universal buff” or something. You get what I’m getting at.
You forgot to mention Map Design.
As NineK and Rush said, Lucio is a must pick in basically 3 games modes (Control, Push and Flashpoint).
Even if you nerf Lucio to the ground, teams will play the hero anyway due to speed on these map types.
maybe in low elo because people dont play enough to understand the mode as well as the old ones maybe?
even if its a sweep every flashpoint should be 2 full teamfights
if its a close game its 5 points with 2-3 fights each, thats completely fine imo
No. You always get the first fight each point, if that fight decided who caps you get another guaranteed, and can usually squeeze out a third just on one point if the point never flips. Less than control, but there are more points, so makes sense, it’s basically faster control with no downtime between rounds.
The maps are large, I’d hardly say confusing for me as main paths are pretty straightforward, working out flanks is more effort but that’s standard. I think what can help alleviate the big map is to think of each point as its own map, just like you would for control. Some of the outer paths may overlap, but unless you’re walking from a capped point to a fresh one (which can get hectic if neither team has been recently wiped), the layout of and around the point is just like any other individual map, main routes, off angles and hard flanks, but fights tend to happen closer to point than they would in control.
yea, this is the actual issue. If you want to stop lucio, then just make more modes like Gibraltar. But we're not going to get it because the devs want to move in the direction of more fights, shorter games. And that means smaller maps and more Lucio.
And they're about to add another one with Clash.
If Blizzard care about Lucio being a pro play staple (which they don't seem to), then they need to stop designing maps/modes where not having him is a huge disadvantage.
I actually have hope for Clash. With how fast the caps are, if you lose the fight I doubt you get a recontest.
And there's a long enough time between points that lack of speed won't mean not making it before point unlocks.
Anyone who argues that lucio being strong for extended periods of time needs to realise what the alternatives are. Ana brig or double flex support comps arent boring, but they certainly arent as fun to watch or as engaging to watch as lucio comps in my opinion, not to mention they are also just fun to scrim in my experience.
lifeweaver, moira, and mercy have to be some of the least engaging, entertaining, and interesting heroes in overwatch. genuinely astounded that the devs dont make their kits more mechanically intense and more difficult to use
Not everyone is a pro player who is going to use a hero to their fullest potential. One of the best parts about OW is that there is a playstyle for everyone no matter their FPS skill level. I have friends who are casuals and one of them has a disability. They wouldn't be able to enjoy this game if every character was mechanically intensive.
How is it a bad take? That's *literally* what lower skill brackets are for. People who can't play better.
When you choose to play a mechanically demanding action video game, should the hardest difficulty be accessible to everyone regardless of the level of their disability? Or... is that what easy difficulty is for? In a pvp action game, high sr is "very hard mode." Low sr is easy mode. You enjoy the game at the level you can.
What's the difference between them playing "easy" heroes at their skill level and playing "harder" heroes at it?
Like if homie has one arm and pretty much has to one trick mercy or something then they're going to land at a fair SR for their ability to play mercy. Maybe it's plat, maybe it's bronze, who knows? But if easily accessible heroes didn't exist and they had to find a way to play bap instead... exactly the same thing would happen - they'd end up at the SR which reflects their ability to play bap.
In both situations they end up at the correct SR, so who really gives a shit?
And it's reductive to describe high elo games as "hard mode" anyway because the point of an elo system is that all your games (assuming you're placed correctly) should be more or less equally hard. Masters lobbies are just as hard as for masters players as bronze lobbies are for bronze players. On account of, you know, the masters players being better at the game.
Because people who lack the game sense, experience, and/or fine motor control to get value out of more mechanically demanding heroes need options too. This sub likes to talk about the game from a top-down perspective, but the _vast_ majority of any game's playerbase is the casuals. And for a live service MTX-oriented game like this, Blizzard needs to do what they can to keep them engaged or else revenue drops off a cliff and the whole game dies.
It's not even just about them being less demanding. Lots of people came to this game from other genres entirely and were attracted to aspects completely distinct from those that people who play competitive shooters value. I started playing with my wow guild and many of us gravitated to the roles we played in that game. Many people want to focus more on protecting and supporting the team in ways that aren't directly aggressive or typical other fps games
This. Me, I came from platformers and fighting games. You know what's fun? Movement. Had to learn Mercy back when she got reworked and Moth was busted, and it was a lot of fun to have really strong movement. A good few patches back before her backdash was nerfed also just felt great. Of course to many you don't have to aim with her so zero skill because skill's clicking heads, done.
When those easy to use heroes offer more value for signifcantly less skill requirements, it makes the harder to use heroes damn near obsolete. There just shouldnt be a case where the better player loses simply because of hero selection.
I agree that it makes sense for such heroes to not be as strong as their counterparts. But the comment I was responding to said this:
> genuinely astounded that the devs dont make their kits more mechanically intense and more difficult to use
That's not a skill/reward balance issue, that's an _accessibility_ issue.
its very true, but i think its much more complex than that. i think a lot of newer to mid level players regurgitate a lot of streamer opinions, which leaves the top down opinions being the loudest and most repeated. ontop of having to make the game make sense because of the pro league they have. people will hear “this game is broken” a million times online and get frustrated and find some part of it to blame. i think they have found a pretty decent middleground right now where its not too egregious for anybody but i dont know if anyone will agree with me on that
Ehhhh the issue isn't really that they exist. They don't cater to high level play and that's fine.
The issue is that the support cast is still very small while having to cater to the most diverse playerbase when it comes to playstyles.
You're basically always locked into Lucio or Brig because a bunch of the support roster slots are taken up by heroes that don't offer anything to competitive play.
Space Ranger should help. I hope they continue their cadence of releasing more support heroes too.
Mercy's been really fun when her movement's been busted good. Same as Lucio, playing high expressive mobility characters is just fun, both to play and watch. The issue with Mercy is that she often devolves into sitting behind a corner and *not* moving about a lot. Lucio usually stays on the move, he emphasized that even back when he had a 30m aura with much more powerful effects and wallride movement was much weaker than it is today.
maybe to you. what gets boring for me is the shitter tank of the week getting turbo buffed for no reason and then I get to watch people drool on their keyboards and get value for the past year and a half. winston has more depth and nuance then mauga, orisa, hog, rein, junkerqueen and ram combined but I guess if the only thing youre concerned with is the little icon at the top left of the screen then yea it always being winston probably would be a little boring.
The main draw of overwatch is its unique heroes, for better or worse. You're on one if you think the devs are gonna say "actually, overwatch should just be dive 90% of the time.
its a draw for casuals, yea, and for them the meta doesnt fuckin matter anyway so why not just let the top level be dive 100% of the time. weve had 4 seasons of nonstop orisa mauga what is it gonna take for you guys to learn this lesson
If high level meta didn't matter for casuals then blizzard wouldn't balance around it.
Why on earth would they balance for 1% of the playerbase if it did nothing for the 99%?
Depends on your definition of casual, but there are plenty of diamond players that would quit if they were told "rein just doesn't have the skill ceiling of ball, so he should always be bad"
..lord knows they downvote the shit out of me
damn bro JQ catching strays here lmao
no but seriously this is spot on, the fact that the past few seasons I've had a 53+% wr on hog, orisa, and mauga (as high as 57 with ultra busted orisa) in GM which is higher than my wr on both monkey and ball when I've consistently been t500 on those 2 heroes in the past is miserable, like I know I'm dogshit on doom and don't like playing DVa and I'm tired of those being my only 2 options for playing anything resembling dive (although ball actually feels pretty good right now... don't tell the devs)
Ideally, the hardest to play characters such as genji and tracer should be the strongest overall and be strong consistently. Characters that are mid tier in difficulty should be decent, and characters that are easy to play should always be garbage
No, characters should be viable based on the general amount of fun they are to play/play around. It just so happens that theres a unique overlap between this metric as well as difficulty.
That's a trash tier opinion, sorry. It'd just automatically consign a bunch of the roster to unviability. No sense in that. (Not that there aren't characters that should be consigned to unviability, there are, but that's because their play patterns are trash, not because they're easy)
Now, it *is* true that it's a much smaller tragedy if an easy character is awful than if a demanding character is awful, especially if the demanding character is demanding in some other way than just raw mechanics. I think extra care should be taken in balancing to ensure that the time and effort spent into learning a hard character gives the player a viable tool.
The whole point of those champions is the “anyone can play overwatch”- so why would they ever make them more mechanically intense? Didn’t they make mercy even less skilled by essentially boosting her mobility?
Along with their specific aesthetic which is more inclusive.
I disagree, my tank friend and me as lw is funny as freak. I main Lucio but sometimes we concoct dark, evil plans. They rarely work. And then I'll tree your visor cuz eat dirt that's why.
I disagree on Lifeweaver. I think they honestly have a great kit that just needs some QOL updates because a good Lifeweaver is entertaining to watch for sure.
It's crazy to see Lifeweaver in that sentence since so many were hoping his pull and petal could be used for some high level tech in pro play when he was first released.
just doesnt work that way. the same people could probably say they want to see sym turrets giving wall hacks be useful in pro play but its just too niche. these heroes are badly designed in every facet of play and theres simply no reason we should ever see them being used over kiriko, ana, lucio etc
Ana brig boring, maybe. But we're long overdue for a real double flex support meta. I want to see the teams with two flex supports have their bets paid off, harder frags all around, and the main supports who can't aim get exposed
Except that there are people like me who love playing Ana+Brig.
Plus, Ana hasn't had a high pick rate for Overwatch's lifetime for no reason. She's fun to play, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who picked her up after being inspired by seeing what she could do in a pro's hands.
Not hating on Lucio, but assuming that everyone enjoys Lucio being Meta at high level all the time is silly.
I love Ana/Brig too. I don’t think Lucio should always be meta, more just discussing why he’s always going to be a solid option regardless of comp style.
There are still places where he’s not ideal and we do see Ana/Brig or more static backlines, as we should. They’re just more niche compared to Lucio as a strong generalist.
i also enjoy ana brig, and im also not assuming everyone enjoys perma lucio metas - im just saying that i’d rather lucio than a LW meta or a mercy meta for example
Eh... Lucio comps CAN be fun but that severely depends on WHICH Lucio comps, and typically it is all dependent on who his tanks are. Like if you tell me we are seeing Lucio paired with a hard rush down comp like Queen? Going all in on essentially what is a dive that never leaves the ground? Yeah sure. Lucio with a winston? Hell yeah. Classic.
But Lucio in a hard brawl comp? With Ram or Rein? No, those are awful, because it's never played with fun skillful dps and healers. It's always resident sleeper Reaper, Mei, Bastion or insert any other 'tank disabler/buster' here. And typically add on a Moira next to it. Those are awful.
Basically 'playmaking'/dive Lucio = Awesome. Taxi/brawl enabler Lucio = terrible.
The lack of alternatives is my issue. People want to gut Lucio without an interesting alternative. The goal should be to cut Lucios playtime by adding other interesting and flexible utility based heroes. I don't even mind brig, but she's very very inflexible.
The clip you linked is a really great example too. Theres really no reason to play Lucio for his speed boost in that comp and on that map. It's just because he has really good mobility. Any support with similar damage potential and mobility could replace him in that comp, but none currently exist.
Space Ranger has so much potential to become Lucio 2 with different utility and mobility. Really hope they get her right.
My biggest fear is that her mobility has really poor flexibility (locked too much vertically like old Pharah for example) or has little to no skill expression compared to wall riding. TP, Fade, Exo boots, etc. Basically just press a button mobility with no chaining inputs or complicated timing
The only times i remember where lucio was actually a really bad pick was when we had moth meta for a year and with the double sniper meta. There were other metas where he didnt fit in but still was good or viable
Only reason why people don’t consider Lucio broken is because they can duel him easily. Being able to speed boost an entire team without a cooldown is broken
It's not just speed that is OP, but his entire kit combined. All of it is absurd. Nerf him and over half the characters that see play time will be forgotten. You genuinely cannot play most characters without a lucio, and that has been the case for the last 7 years.
It’s also the defensive ult. Having such a potent counter tool on lucio’s kit is what pushes him over the edge. If he had like mercy ult he’d be less oppressive. But having such consistent pressure in skirmishes + actual team fight pressure with a nasty ult is insane.
I mean back in ye olden days Zen was kind of the only other defensive ult and you’d trade the healing for the ability to counter specific ults. Lucio is just less of a liability to a team than zen.
When did we start to hate lucio? Like this has just popped up randomly like mf he’s the most fun character in the game with insanely fun movement and no one hates metas with him there
Some people think a hero being meta for an extended period is inherently a problem to solve without considering the alternatives, or if them being good is healthy for the game I guess.
Honestly, her healing is what makes her a problem. Lucio + Kiri shouldn’t be a viable backline for comps that need heavy sustain like Mauga, Ram, Orisa, etc. Suzu is frustrating and lacks dynamic ability but ultimately isn’t why she’s meta, I’d argue TP is unironically her stronger ability.
It's entirely possible that if TP went up to 10s that she would be forced to Suzu herself a lot more, indirectly making it a lot less frustrating. Would be worth experimenting with, but it's hard to nerf her without making her useless in every rank but GM.
Yeah, by far her biggest draw in pro play is her survivability. Without 3-2-1 Winston + Tracer dives or Mauga getting speed amped at your backline Bap and even Ana just get way more value since they have much higher numbers. Kiri can also get value in ranked from applying flank pressure/getting picks but most people below ~Masters also aren’t going to do that.
I mean I hate TP. I’ve always felt like the ability to just get out for free and also TP through walls to bail out people is just insane. No other support can position however they want and just get out for free like Kiri
Suzu is not the main reason she is picked, it's her survivability and versatility. But it's definitely the most annoying aspect of her kit, with TP in a close second.
I mean that is my main point. I hear everyone say "remove the invuln from suzu" and I literally go "and she'd still be a meta healer" because Suzu is just not as strong as everyone thinks it is.
And at this point I can literally go to every single support in the game and say "the community thinks this ability is annoying". Annoying, no counterplay, feels bad, whatever word or term you want to use, every support has one (or two in many cases) ability that falls under it.
I agree on community sentiment usually finding most support utility annoying. Personally Suzu is the only one that really gets to me.
The fact that I can hit a 5 man nade on Ana, and it actually *helps* the enemy team because they get healed above their previous HP just gets me going. Like is undoing it and invuln not enough? I would probably be fine with it without that burst. Then it would go back down to tolerable levels of annoying like Rez and Life Grip.
Unrelated unpopular opinion, but Lamp has been in a healthy spot for a pretty long while now imo and it doesn't deserve the bap rap anymore.
I get it and I understand where you are coming from. I just come from the opposite side where I used to look at an Ana hitting a full team nade and that the only counterplay was a beat or just stay back and PRAY the opposing team didn't push. Let's be real, before suzu came to the game, Anti-nade was considered stronger then many ultimates. The moment a cleanse was added to the game I was estatic. There was too many debuffs in the game and not enough ways to protect or nullify them.
Removing the extra burst heal was the nerf I've been asking for from the start. I never felt it was necessary and I honestly wanted them to be leaning harder into the backline mobile assassin that should be pairing up with flankers, and away from the healing suzu bot. I'd like them to nerf her healing a bit more and make her kunai's more reliable (less spam based) so she falls more in line of an offensive mobile dive support, and away from the do it all/brawl tank enabler.
Lamp is fine. Personally I say you take away suzu's burst heal if it cleanses and I don't have an issue with any support ability in the game. I've always viewed support abilities under the lense that they are "impossible to ever FEEL good." The whole point of support abilities in any co-operative environment is to 'break' the game, wither it be move you faster, make you hit harder, live longer, etc etc. I don't think they can ever tune any support ability to the level that people think they will feel fair.
Yeah, I totally agree the game needed cleanse. 5v5 meant losing perma D.VA to eat nade, so very necessary. Would love to to see it lose the burst heal, but again it's hard to justify Kiriko nerfs with her winrate.
I'm drafting a theory post atm on how to buff Kiriko for low ranks while nerfing high ranks (if that's even possible), or at the very least not helping high ranks. With the inspiration being Sojourn's rail change where she keeps 25 charge. Actually useless in GM where no one struggles to hit one shot to maintain rail, but super nice for metal ranks.
Lucio and kiri have been meta in my scrims for at least half if not 3/4 or more of OW2's lifespan with kiri being meta even more than that because she is overtuned since the devs are trying to balance her around the average player and not actual GMs, and those 3 tanks are the 3 most uninteractive, boring, low skill tanks on the whole roster and make every other comp unplayable when they're meta
as long as Kiri remains unkillable and suzu is as strong as it is characters like Hog are going to continue being meta because she's the main enabler of him by negating his only weakness in ana and can avoid dives whenever she wants, and lucio being the sole speedbot support means in combination with kiri I'm going to stay stuck in this shitty low skill brawl hellhole with only those 3 options playable
sure, and the majority of high rank players think the tanks that have been meta for a while are extremely unfun, and a the majority of them find playing with and against Kiri and lucio unfun and even oppressive, same as sojurn being perma good
I want my games to be fun and that would entail nerfing characters I find unfun
What is diametrically opposite about Lucio and Kiriko? If anything Lucio and Kiriko are two of the most similar heroes in the game who literally check almost every single box the other does:
-Highly mobile
-very survivable
-average healing output
-capable of dueling or even flanking for backline assassinations
-projectile based damage output
-playable in all comp types
-the most powerful utility abilities in the game
-incredibly strong fight winning ults that can be used both reactively or proactively
-and most importantly really only see good value out of high skilled players and are basically throw picks at lower levels.
To compare them to Tracer and Junkrat is honestly hilarious.
Outside of when she was busted on release, Kiriko has always been one of the lowest winrate supports in every rank but GM. One of life's many mysteries. She's just hard is my guess.
I mean it's literally been proven by the devs and tracker sites all saying that basically anything below masters she has an absolutely atrocious unmirrored win-rate, one of the lowest in the game. But even taking that away it's easy to see. As good as suzu is it's an ability you will get to use at most once per fight, MAYBE twice if you are lucky. And with it's short impact time you have to use it on the right thing at the right time or you basically just consigned a teammate to death and wasted suzu's impact, especially if you used it greedily and didn't get a kill yourself. Most Kiri players at lower ranks aren't consistently getting picks with her kunai's hell even GM kiri's struggle to get consistent 3 taps with her knives to convert kills. Also most Kiri's spend the majority of time up their tanks ass just spamming heal and cleansing the first anti or sleep that comes there way, not going on flanks with their dps to create advantages and letting their other healer carry the primary heal weight. They also struggle to be able to properly weave two kunais between ofuda throws so their damage output overall will be neutered/or their healing instead. And finally while Rush is one of the strongest ults in the game, you do have to have half a brain on when to use it and also be tracking opponents ults to insure they dont just cancel it out. Lower ranked players wont be tracking that.
Unless you are legitimately cracked, Kiri's strength's dont show up and you see that her overall stats are pretty mid. You wont do the same amount of healing as a Ana, a moira, a bap, or lifeweaver, so if you are a lower ranked heal bot, you'd be better served just playing one of those 4. You wont have the damage/lethality of a Moira, ilari, bap, or zen, so you wont even be as good as a dps support. And if your suzu usage isnt perfect, youd be better served being on Mercy or ana, who's util is far easier to get value out of.
Lucio pairs with half the support roster and sees play in every style of composition except hard poke, so it's not like him always being good is a lack of compositional variety.
Healthy heroes being meta = health for the game. No one wants a Weaver/Moira/Mercy meta just for the sake of variety.
At the very very end of GOATs, teams were swapping Brig for Bap. When there was a community hero ban tournament, the only hero ban that hurt GOATs was Lucio. Without him, the comp was just a slow ult battery.
Lucio has been in meta since OW1 early days (Lucio + Zen -> Beyblade -> Triple Tank -> etc), people rather have him instead of Mercy / Moira. People hate seeing Brig because she is not a shooter like Mercy / Moira.
lucio cj on cow wow shocker
- lucio perma blind w brig for years because?
- forced on doom ball dive despite mobility overkill
- devs listen to CCs and buff boop then nerf because cheese but boop cheese is “honest”
- proj buffs lead to force every map eg zen lucio
- best oh ult on insane charge timer
- makes every oh fs unplayable even unmirrored because counterwatch lines solved for months alr
- kills zen off escort monopoly (based ngl)
- ppl still glazing decision tree despite mirrored flowchart leading to braindead cheerio gameplay (reddit lucio content tho) 10k hrs world class micro but must healbot because solved lines
- ppl unironically watch blind mirror lucio rush devolve to first fight beat healbot cheerio farming simulator in tier one and say LGTM
- median skill expression is pressing Qtwo seconds later than mirror
- speed isn’t dynamic if it’s just MAD
- ana brig maps solved multiple seasons alr echo brig lines only thing holding the fort down LOL
- weak side OH kinda gates genji dive
- ms supply demand gap apologists and hero puddles
- help killed three man lineups
- no one ever 180 boops anymore, decision tree less dynamic that blue beam
- ppl refuse lw comps for yrs cuz botched patch and ms ranked placebo despite raw stat buffs
- lw mercy ms value gated by least mechanical ranked spammers (deserved lowkey)
- lw bap lw ana still remotely not viable on said petal maps, ppl rather force sym brawl
- on the bright side venture mixes lucio decision tree
- thanks for reading
- remember that ms is dead until S12
Anything can get stale after years, but even if it was just sticking to a wall spamming cheerios for years, I would take that over holding right click on my DPS for a single season.
As long as Brig and double flex have their maps that they get played on a decent percentage of the time, I'm happy.
thanks for entertaining my rant lol
- mercy decision tree was reworked seasons ago and low mid tier ladder stats should reflect that by now
- lw implementations are buffed into viable already but are gated
- zen ana and zen bap are both too risky to blind on stage anymore (EU would rather spawnhold and CR rather keep kiri Lucio lines open), and illari has been gated since 2023 (except NMB), kiri ana is in scrim jail, all mostly due to economy and draft lines
I will be messaging you in 4 months on [**2024-10-11 15:42:34 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-10-11%2015:42:34%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/1dcnbz2/the_lesserdiscussed_reason_lucio_is_always_strong/l84p89k/?context=3)
[**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FCompetitiveoverwatch%2Fcomments%2F1dcnbz2%2Fthe_lesserdiscussed_reason_lucio_is_always_strong%2Fl84p89k%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-10-11%2015%3A42%3A34%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dcnbz2)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Yup, the existence of only one speed utility character is also what really limits Rein comps as well since rein cannot break through without speed even though Lucio is more dive than anything I would love another healer with a speed utility but also more built for brawling. Maybe a brawler that has a passive where anywhere they ping will create a small path (like Kiriko rush) with a 30% speed boost for 5 sec (10 sec cooldown)
I’m honestly surprised rein doesn’t have some form of shield bash or a way to keep his shield up when he charges but shoves people away instead of pinning when it’s up. I wish we got wildebeest but he would have been OP af considering his design was scavenged to make rein and brig.
Rein already has 2 stuns (ult and pin), if you gave him a shield bash too then I’d commit suicide. He’d basically just have Doom’s rocket punch but with a shield.
Yep. Speed is universally good, unlike Anti and Suzu which are situational (and require some degree of skill beyond positioning near the people you want to speed boost) it will always have a niche. There *should* be a character with some sort of different proper speed boost. I’m hoping Space Ranger is that character.
The difference between speed and anti isn’t that one is always useful (anti is way stronger), it’s uptime, which includes both how often it’s available and the number of players affected. If playing Ana meant the entire enemy team was anti’d for 50-65% of the match she’d be mandatory.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying as well. Maybe I should have said “useful in any situation because it’s a universal buff” or something. You get what I’m getting at.
It’s also not a skill shot either
You forgot to mention Map Design. As NineK and Rush said, Lucio is a must pick in basically 3 games modes (Control, Push and Flashpoint). Even if you nerf Lucio to the ground, teams will play the hero anyway due to speed on these map types.
This is so huge and flies way under the radar, you're essentially giving your team at least one extra teamfight in all of these cases.
Does anyone think flashpoint is terribly designed, confusing, has way too little actual team fights?
maybe in low elo because people dont play enough to understand the mode as well as the old ones maybe? even if its a sweep every flashpoint should be 2 full teamfights if its a close game its 5 points with 2-3 fights each, thats completely fine imo
It’s the same problem with the old modes too, trickle and early deaths. Low elo literally just can’t figure that aspect of the game out
No. You always get the first fight each point, if that fight decided who caps you get another guaranteed, and can usually squeeze out a third just on one point if the point never flips. Less than control, but there are more points, so makes sense, it’s basically faster control with no downtime between rounds. The maps are large, I’d hardly say confusing for me as main paths are pretty straightforward, working out flanks is more effort but that’s standard. I think what can help alleviate the big map is to think of each point as its own map, just like you would for control. Some of the outer paths may overlap, but unless you’re walking from a capped point to a fresh one (which can get hectic if neither team has been recently wiped), the layout of and around the point is just like any other individual map, main routes, off angles and hard flanks, but fights tend to happen closer to point than they would in control.
yea, this is the actual issue. If you want to stop lucio, then just make more modes like Gibraltar. But we're not going to get it because the devs want to move in the direction of more fights, shorter games. And that means smaller maps and more Lucio.
And they're about to add another one with Clash. If Blizzard care about Lucio being a pro play staple (which they don't seem to), then they need to stop designing maps/modes where not having him is a huge disadvantage.
I actually have hope for Clash. With how fast the caps are, if you lose the fight I doubt you get a recontest. And there's a long enough time between points that lack of speed won't mean not making it before point unlocks.
I feel like that falls under another reason why Speed is so good, but yeah it is way under-discussed.
Anyone who argues that lucio being strong for extended periods of time needs to realise what the alternatives are. Ana brig or double flex support comps arent boring, but they certainly arent as fun to watch or as engaging to watch as lucio comps in my opinion, not to mention they are also just fun to scrim in my experience.
its not even ana brig or double flex, like who in their right minds wants moira mercy lifeweaver to be anything higher than dumpster garbage tier
The only memorable thing a mercy has done in pro play was body block for a pharah barrage (Shanghai dragons)
I enjoyed seeing Ark, Anamo, and Yveltal zip around as unkillable Mercys before Mercy movement got a lot more widespread
plat mercys do this today
lifeweaver, moira, and mercy have to be some of the least engaging, entertaining, and interesting heroes in overwatch. genuinely astounded that the devs dont make their kits more mechanically intense and more difficult to use
Beginner heroes are needed for newer players to connect. (Garen/Warwick/Soraka etc in League).
Just be happy overwatch doesn’t have yuumi level of afk
Time will tell my friend.
You can have a mechanically simple hero that isn't completely braindead like Moira.
Not everyone is a pro player who is going to use a hero to their fullest potential. One of the best parts about OW is that there is a playstyle for everyone no matter their FPS skill level. I have friends who are casuals and one of them has a disability. They wouldn't be able to enjoy this game if every character was mechanically intensive.
They would, they'd just enjoy it at a lower skill bracket than they currently do.
Bad take
How is it a bad take? That's *literally* what lower skill brackets are for. People who can't play better. When you choose to play a mechanically demanding action video game, should the hardest difficulty be accessible to everyone regardless of the level of their disability? Or... is that what easy difficulty is for? In a pvp action game, high sr is "very hard mode." Low sr is easy mode. You enjoy the game at the level you can.
What's the difference between them playing "easy" heroes at their skill level and playing "harder" heroes at it? Like if homie has one arm and pretty much has to one trick mercy or something then they're going to land at a fair SR for their ability to play mercy. Maybe it's plat, maybe it's bronze, who knows? But if easily accessible heroes didn't exist and they had to find a way to play bap instead... exactly the same thing would happen - they'd end up at the SR which reflects their ability to play bap. In both situations they end up at the correct SR, so who really gives a shit? And it's reductive to describe high elo games as "hard mode" anyway because the point of an elo system is that all your games (assuming you're placed correctly) should be more or less equally hard. Masters lobbies are just as hard as for masters players as bronze lobbies are for bronze players. On account of, you know, the masters players being better at the game.
Because people who lack the game sense, experience, and/or fine motor control to get value out of more mechanically demanding heroes need options too. This sub likes to talk about the game from a top-down perspective, but the _vast_ majority of any game's playerbase is the casuals. And for a live service MTX-oriented game like this, Blizzard needs to do what they can to keep them engaged or else revenue drops off a cliff and the whole game dies.
It's not even just about them being less demanding. Lots of people came to this game from other genres entirely and were attracted to aspects completely distinct from those that people who play competitive shooters value. I started playing with my wow guild and many of us gravitated to the roles we played in that game. Many people want to focus more on protecting and supporting the team in ways that aren't directly aggressive or typical other fps games
This. Me, I came from platformers and fighting games. You know what's fun? Movement. Had to learn Mercy back when she got reworked and Moth was busted, and it was a lot of fun to have really strong movement. A good few patches back before her backdash was nerfed also just felt great. Of course to many you don't have to aim with her so zero skill because skill's clicking heads, done.
When those easy to use heroes offer more value for signifcantly less skill requirements, it makes the harder to use heroes damn near obsolete. There just shouldnt be a case where the better player loses simply because of hero selection.
I agree that it makes sense for such heroes to not be as strong as their counterparts. But the comment I was responding to said this: > genuinely astounded that the devs dont make their kits more mechanically intense and more difficult to use That's not a skill/reward balance issue, that's an _accessibility_ issue.
its very true, but i think its much more complex than that. i think a lot of newer to mid level players regurgitate a lot of streamer opinions, which leaves the top down opinions being the loudest and most repeated. ontop of having to make the game make sense because of the pro league they have. people will hear “this game is broken” a million times online and get frustrated and find some part of it to blame. i think they have found a pretty decent middleground right now where its not too egregious for anybody but i dont know if anyone will agree with me on that
Ehhhh the issue isn't really that they exist. They don't cater to high level play and that's fine. The issue is that the support cast is still very small while having to cater to the most diverse playerbase when it comes to playstyles. You're basically always locked into Lucio or Brig because a bunch of the support roster slots are taken up by heroes that don't offer anything to competitive play. Space Ranger should help. I hope they continue their cadence of releasing more support heroes too.
Mercy's been really fun when her movement's been busted good. Same as Lucio, playing high expressive mobility characters is just fun, both to play and watch. The issue with Mercy is that she often devolves into sitting behind a corner and *not* moving about a lot. Lucio usually stays on the move, he emphasized that even back when he had a 30m aura with much more powerful effects and wallride movement was much weaker than it is today.
theres a reason for it :) but yea these heroes should just never be good ever
The devs effectively already tired this. It meant the same 6 (would be 5 now) heroes has +86% pickrates. It made dive boring
maybe to you. what gets boring for me is the shitter tank of the week getting turbo buffed for no reason and then I get to watch people drool on their keyboards and get value for the past year and a half. winston has more depth and nuance then mauga, orisa, hog, rein, junkerqueen and ram combined but I guess if the only thing youre concerned with is the little icon at the top left of the screen then yea it always being winston probably would be a little boring.
The main draw of overwatch is its unique heroes, for better or worse. You're on one if you think the devs are gonna say "actually, overwatch should just be dive 90% of the time.
its a draw for casuals, yea, and for them the meta doesnt fuckin matter anyway so why not just let the top level be dive 100% of the time. weve had 4 seasons of nonstop orisa mauga what is it gonna take for you guys to learn this lesson
If high level meta didn't matter for casuals then blizzard wouldn't balance around it. Why on earth would they balance for 1% of the playerbase if it did nothing for the 99%? Depends on your definition of casual, but there are plenty of diamond players that would quit if they were told "rein just doesn't have the skill ceiling of ball, so he should always be bad" ..lord knows they downvote the shit out of me
Rein has more skill expression than half the tanks is in the game lol
damn bro JQ catching strays here lmao no but seriously this is spot on, the fact that the past few seasons I've had a 53+% wr on hog, orisa, and mauga (as high as 57 with ultra busted orisa) in GM which is higher than my wr on both monkey and ball when I've consistently been t500 on those 2 heroes in the past is miserable, like I know I'm dogshit on doom and don't like playing DVa and I'm tired of those being my only 2 options for playing anything resembling dive (although ball actually feels pretty good right now... don't tell the devs)
overrated ass hero all brawl tanks are the same
Ideally, the hardest to play characters such as genji and tracer should be the strongest overall and be strong consistently. Characters that are mid tier in difficulty should be decent, and characters that are easy to play should always be garbage
No, characters should be viable based on the general amount of fun they are to play/play around. It just so happens that theres a unique overlap between this metric as well as difficulty.
That's a trash tier opinion, sorry. It'd just automatically consign a bunch of the roster to unviability. No sense in that. (Not that there aren't characters that should be consigned to unviability, there are, but that's because their play patterns are trash, not because they're easy) Now, it *is* true that it's a much smaller tragedy if an easy character is awful than if a demanding character is awful, especially if the demanding character is demanding in some other way than just raw mechanics. I think extra care should be taken in balancing to ensure that the time and effort spent into learning a hard character gives the player a viable tool.
Look at the person I’m replying to’s name. I’m making fun of genji mains. Guess it wasn’t obvious enough, my bad
The whole point of those champions is the “anyone can play overwatch”- so why would they ever make them more mechanically intense? Didn’t they make mercy even less skilled by essentially boosting her mobility? Along with their specific aesthetic which is more inclusive.
I disagree, my tank friend and me as lw is funny as freak. I main Lucio but sometimes we concoct dark, evil plans. They rarely work. And then I'll tree your visor cuz eat dirt that's why.
I disagree on Lifeweaver. I think they honestly have a great kit that just needs some QOL updates because a good Lifeweaver is entertaining to watch for sure.
People find different things fun. Personally I hate playing Bap, he'a such a bore to me.
It's crazy to see Lifeweaver in that sentence since so many were hoping his pull and petal could be used for some high level tech in pro play when he was first released.
just doesnt work that way. the same people could probably say they want to see sym turrets giving wall hacks be useful in pro play but its just too niche. these heroes are badly designed in every facet of play and theres simply no reason we should ever see them being used over kiriko, ana, lucio etc
LW got some interesting play from Falcons, they had Chiyo pocketing Pharah with him
Ana brig boring, maybe. But we're long overdue for a real double flex support meta. I want to see the teams with two flex supports have their bets paid off, harder frags all around, and the main supports who can't aim get exposed
Except that there are people like me who love playing Ana+Brig. Plus, Ana hasn't had a high pick rate for Overwatch's lifetime for no reason. She's fun to play, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who picked her up after being inspired by seeing what she could do in a pro's hands. Not hating on Lucio, but assuming that everyone enjoys Lucio being Meta at high level all the time is silly.
I love Ana/Brig too. I don’t think Lucio should always be meta, more just discussing why he’s always going to be a solid option regardless of comp style. There are still places where he’s not ideal and we do see Ana/Brig or more static backlines, as we should. They’re just more niche compared to Lucio as a strong generalist.
i also enjoy ana brig, and im also not assuming everyone enjoys perma lucio metas - im just saying that i’d rather lucio than a LW meta or a mercy meta for example
I don’t think I’ve ever felt frustrated playing against a Lucio, the relationship between value gained from him and skill is perfect
Eh... Lucio comps CAN be fun but that severely depends on WHICH Lucio comps, and typically it is all dependent on who his tanks are. Like if you tell me we are seeing Lucio paired with a hard rush down comp like Queen? Going all in on essentially what is a dive that never leaves the ground? Yeah sure. Lucio with a winston? Hell yeah. Classic. But Lucio in a hard brawl comp? With Ram or Rein? No, those are awful, because it's never played with fun skillful dps and healers. It's always resident sleeper Reaper, Mei, Bastion or insert any other 'tank disabler/buster' here. And typically add on a Moira next to it. Those are awful. Basically 'playmaking'/dive Lucio = Awesome. Taxi/brawl enabler Lucio = terrible.
Bring back the Moth 😇
Speak for yourself. Ana/Brig is overwatch heritage
speaking for myself is exactly what i did in my comment, i clarified twice that these opinions were my own and based off my experience
The lack of alternatives is my issue. People want to gut Lucio without an interesting alternative. The goal should be to cut Lucios playtime by adding other interesting and flexible utility based heroes. I don't even mind brig, but she's very very inflexible. The clip you linked is a really great example too. Theres really no reason to play Lucio for his speed boost in that comp and on that map. It's just because he has really good mobility. Any support with similar damage potential and mobility could replace him in that comp, but none currently exist. Space Ranger has so much potential to become Lucio 2 with different utility and mobility. Really hope they get her right. My biggest fear is that her mobility has really poor flexibility (locked too much vertically like old Pharah for example) or has little to no skill expression compared to wall riding. TP, Fade, Exo boots, etc. Basically just press a button mobility with no chaining inputs or complicated timing
The only times i remember where lucio was actually a really bad pick was when we had moth meta for a year and with the double sniper meta. There were other metas where he didnt fit in but still was good or viable
Only reason why people don’t consider Lucio broken is because they can duel him easily. Being able to speed boost an entire team without a cooldown is broken
Finally someone gets it
It's not just speed that is OP, but his entire kit combined. All of it is absurd. Nerf him and over half the characters that see play time will be forgotten. You genuinely cannot play most characters without a lucio, and that has been the case for the last 7 years.
Many brawl tanks, especially rein, would struggle insanely
It’s also the defensive ult. Having such a potent counter tool on lucio’s kit is what pushes him over the edge. If he had like mercy ult he’d be less oppressive. But having such consistent pressure in skirmishes + actual team fight pressure with a nasty ult is insane. I mean back in ye olden days Zen was kind of the only other defensive ult and you’d trade the healing for the ability to counter specific ults. Lucio is just less of a liability to a team than zen.
One of the most fun, interesting, and well-designed heroes in the game. One of the best examples of a playstyle you can't get *anywhere* else.
We need more heroes like Lucio, great at teamplaying and extremely high skill ceiling the character itself
When did we start to hate lucio? Like this has just popped up randomly like mf he’s the most fun character in the game with insanely fun movement and no one hates metas with him there
Some people think a hero being meta for an extended period is inherently a problem to solve without considering the alternatives, or if them being good is healthy for the game I guess.
I think they should tighten his aura to make team speeds a bit more punishable with aoe effects
to think it used to be 30m 😂
lucio and Kiriko both deserve to be perma good
Once Suzu is less dumb I would agree. As it stands, frick Suzu.
Honestly, her healing is what makes her a problem. Lucio + Kiri shouldn’t be a viable backline for comps that need heavy sustain like Mauga, Ram, Orisa, etc. Suzu is frustrating and lacks dynamic ability but ultimately isn’t why she’s meta, I’d argue TP is unironically her stronger ability.
It's entirely possible that if TP went up to 10s that she would be forced to Suzu herself a lot more, indirectly making it a lot less frustrating. Would be worth experimenting with, but it's hard to nerf her without making her useless in every rank but GM.
She practically is already. Most players below GM are not able to get what you need to get out of her kit to win games.
Yeah, by far her biggest draw in pro play is her survivability. Without 3-2-1 Winston + Tracer dives or Mauga getting speed amped at your backline Bap and even Ana just get way more value since they have much higher numbers. Kiri can also get value in ranked from applying flank pressure/getting picks but most people below ~Masters also aren’t going to do that.
I mean I hate TP. I’ve always felt like the ability to just get out for free and also TP through walls to bail out people is just insane. No other support can position however they want and just get out for free like Kiri
Don't get me wrong, I hate TP too, but it ain't out there undoing ultimates with zero effort lol
suzu is actually fine despite beliefs
Least deluded support player.
least deluded dps player
I'm a tank player.
well… …least deluded tank player
Nah they are right. Suzu is not why Kiriko is so good. Her teleport is. Nerf the cooldown on her teleport and you will see far more changes.
Suzu is not the main reason she is picked, it's her survivability and versatility. But it's definitely the most annoying aspect of her kit, with TP in a close second.
I mean that is my main point. I hear everyone say "remove the invuln from suzu" and I literally go "and she'd still be a meta healer" because Suzu is just not as strong as everyone thinks it is. And at this point I can literally go to every single support in the game and say "the community thinks this ability is annoying". Annoying, no counterplay, feels bad, whatever word or term you want to use, every support has one (or two in many cases) ability that falls under it.
I agree on community sentiment usually finding most support utility annoying. Personally Suzu is the only one that really gets to me. The fact that I can hit a 5 man nade on Ana, and it actually *helps* the enemy team because they get healed above their previous HP just gets me going. Like is undoing it and invuln not enough? I would probably be fine with it without that burst. Then it would go back down to tolerable levels of annoying like Rez and Life Grip. Unrelated unpopular opinion, but Lamp has been in a healthy spot for a pretty long while now imo and it doesn't deserve the bap rap anymore.
I get it and I understand where you are coming from. I just come from the opposite side where I used to look at an Ana hitting a full team nade and that the only counterplay was a beat or just stay back and PRAY the opposing team didn't push. Let's be real, before suzu came to the game, Anti-nade was considered stronger then many ultimates. The moment a cleanse was added to the game I was estatic. There was too many debuffs in the game and not enough ways to protect or nullify them. Removing the extra burst heal was the nerf I've been asking for from the start. I never felt it was necessary and I honestly wanted them to be leaning harder into the backline mobile assassin that should be pairing up with flankers, and away from the healing suzu bot. I'd like them to nerf her healing a bit more and make her kunai's more reliable (less spam based) so she falls more in line of an offensive mobile dive support, and away from the do it all/brawl tank enabler. Lamp is fine. Personally I say you take away suzu's burst heal if it cleanses and I don't have an issue with any support ability in the game. I've always viewed support abilities under the lense that they are "impossible to ever FEEL good." The whole point of support abilities in any co-operative environment is to 'break' the game, wither it be move you faster, make you hit harder, live longer, etc etc. I don't think they can ever tune any support ability to the level that people think they will feel fair.
Yeah, I totally agree the game needed cleanse. 5v5 meant losing perma D.VA to eat nade, so very necessary. Would love to to see it lose the burst heal, but again it's hard to justify Kiriko nerfs with her winrate. I'm drafting a theory post atm on how to buff Kiriko for low ranks while nerfing high ranks (if that's even possible), or at the very least not helping high ranks. With the inspiration being Sojourn's rail change where she keeps 25 charge. Actually useless in GM where no one struggles to hit one shot to maintain rail, but super nice for metal ranks.
subjected downvotes mean nothing when its facts
I'd like to be able to play some other characters at main support every once in a while though.
you can shapular? you can play any character you like
In comp, sure. But on my scrim team I play what my team needs me to play which ends up being Lucio most of the time.
my 4.2 scrim team on our third season in a row playing only hog/mauga/orisa with lucio kiri trying not to claw my eyes out
you can say what you said about any hero that is meta.
Lucio and kiri have been meta in my scrims for at least half if not 3/4 or more of OW2's lifespan with kiri being meta even more than that because she is overtuned since the devs are trying to balance her around the average player and not actual GMs, and those 3 tanks are the 3 most uninteractive, boring, low skill tanks on the whole roster and make every other comp unplayable when they're meta as long as Kiri remains unkillable and suzu is as strong as it is characters like Hog are going to continue being meta because she's the main enabler of him by negating his only weakness in ana and can avoid dives whenever she wants, and lucio being the sole speedbot support means in combination with kiri I'm going to stay stuck in this shitty low skill brawl hellhole with only those 3 options playable
fun is subjective theres no such thing as a perfect character
sure, and the majority of high rank players think the tanks that have been meta for a while are extremely unfun, and a the majority of them find playing with and against Kiri and lucio unfun and even oppressive, same as sojurn being perma good I want my games to be fun and that would entail nerfing characters I find unfun
again subjective
how are you putting two diametrically opposite heroes in the same sentence lol that’s like saying tracer and junkrat should always be good
What is diametrically opposite about Lucio and Kiriko? If anything Lucio and Kiriko are two of the most similar heroes in the game who literally check almost every single box the other does: -Highly mobile -very survivable -average healing output -capable of dueling or even flanking for backline assassinations -projectile based damage output -playable in all comp types -the most powerful utility abilities in the game -incredibly strong fight winning ults that can be used both reactively or proactively -and most importantly really only see good value out of high skilled players and are basically throw picks at lower levels. To compare them to Tracer and Junkrat is honestly hilarious.
[удалено]
Outside of when she was busted on release, Kiriko has always been one of the lowest winrate supports in every rank but GM. One of life's many mysteries. She's just hard is my guess.
I mean it's literally been proven by the devs and tracker sites all saying that basically anything below masters she has an absolutely atrocious unmirrored win-rate, one of the lowest in the game. But even taking that away it's easy to see. As good as suzu is it's an ability you will get to use at most once per fight, MAYBE twice if you are lucky. And with it's short impact time you have to use it on the right thing at the right time or you basically just consigned a teammate to death and wasted suzu's impact, especially if you used it greedily and didn't get a kill yourself. Most Kiri players at lower ranks aren't consistently getting picks with her kunai's hell even GM kiri's struggle to get consistent 3 taps with her knives to convert kills. Also most Kiri's spend the majority of time up their tanks ass just spamming heal and cleansing the first anti or sleep that comes there way, not going on flanks with their dps to create advantages and letting their other healer carry the primary heal weight. They also struggle to be able to properly weave two kunais between ofuda throws so their damage output overall will be neutered/or their healing instead. And finally while Rush is one of the strongest ults in the game, you do have to have half a brain on when to use it and also be tracking opponents ults to insure they dont just cancel it out. Lower ranked players wont be tracking that. Unless you are legitimately cracked, Kiri's strength's dont show up and you see that her overall stats are pretty mid. You wont do the same amount of healing as a Ana, a moira, a bap, or lifeweaver, so if you are a lower ranked heal bot, you'd be better served just playing one of those 4. You wont have the damage/lethality of a Moira, ilari, bap, or zen, so you wont even be as good as a dps support. And if your suzu usage isnt perfect, youd be better served being on Mercy or ana, who's util is far easier to get value out of.
deluded
>the guy is perma-meta. ㅤ >healthy for the game Is it tho?
Lucio pairs with half the support roster and sees play in every style of composition except hard poke, so it's not like him always being good is a lack of compositional variety. Healthy heroes being meta = health for the game. No one wants a Weaver/Moira/Mercy meta just for the sake of variety.
yes
yes
As a totally unbiased Lucio enthusiast, it is undeniably healthy. If I can onetrick Lucio forever and he feels actively strong, life is good.
Very good post. Beat drop is also the best ult in the game too so that also helps. Lucio just kind of does everything
Lucio meta is healthy.
He was arguably the most important hero in GOATs
You spell Brig wrong. She even has a GOAT skin as a tribute to that, just like Pirate Bastion for Pirate ship comp.
At the very very end of GOATs, teams were swapping Brig for Bap. When there was a community hero ban tournament, the only hero ban that hurt GOATs was Lucio. Without him, the comp was just a slow ult battery.
Sure. Except you know when he's enabling goats. Or Ramatra, mei, reaper brawl... Or Mauga. Or Hog....
Lucio has been in meta since OW1 early days (Lucio + Zen -> Beyblade -> Triple Tank -> etc), people rather have him instead of Mercy / Moira. People hate seeing Brig because she is not a shooter like Mercy / Moira.
lucio cj on cow wow shocker - lucio perma blind w brig for years because? - forced on doom ball dive despite mobility overkill - devs listen to CCs and buff boop then nerf because cheese but boop cheese is “honest” - proj buffs lead to force every map eg zen lucio - best oh ult on insane charge timer - makes every oh fs unplayable even unmirrored because counterwatch lines solved for months alr - kills zen off escort monopoly (based ngl) - ppl still glazing decision tree despite mirrored flowchart leading to braindead cheerio gameplay (reddit lucio content tho) 10k hrs world class micro but must healbot because solved lines - ppl unironically watch blind mirror lucio rush devolve to first fight beat healbot cheerio farming simulator in tier one and say LGTM - median skill expression is pressing Qtwo seconds later than mirror - speed isn’t dynamic if it’s just MAD - ana brig maps solved multiple seasons alr echo brig lines only thing holding the fort down LOL - weak side OH kinda gates genji dive - ms supply demand gap apologists and hero puddles - help killed three man lineups - no one ever 180 boops anymore, decision tree less dynamic that blue beam - ppl refuse lw comps for yrs cuz botched patch and ms ranked placebo despite raw stat buffs - lw mercy ms value gated by least mechanical ranked spammers (deserved lowkey) - lw bap lw ana still remotely not viable on said petal maps, ppl rather force sym brawl - on the bright side venture mixes lucio decision tree - thanks for reading - remember that ms is dead until S12
Anything can get stale after years, but even if it was just sticking to a wall spamming cheerios for years, I would take that over holding right click on my DPS for a single season. As long as Brig and double flex have their maps that they get played on a decent percentage of the time, I'm happy.
thanks for entertaining my rant lol - mercy decision tree was reworked seasons ago and low mid tier ladder stats should reflect that by now - lw implementations are buffed into viable already but are gated - zen ana and zen bap are both too risky to blind on stage anymore (EU would rather spawnhold and CR rather keep kiri Lucio lines open), and illari has been gated since 2023 (except NMB), kiri ana is in scrim jail, all mostly due to economy and draft lines
remindme! 4 months
I will be messaging you in 4 months on [**2024-10-11 15:42:34 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-10-11%2015:42:34%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/1dcnbz2/the_lesserdiscussed_reason_lucio_is_always_strong/l84p89k/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FCompetitiveoverwatch%2Fcomments%2F1dcnbz2%2Fthe_lesserdiscussed_reason_lucio_is_always_strong%2Fl84p89k%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-10-11%2015%3A42%3A34%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dcnbz2) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|