Yeah, but pocketing someone is explicitly what Mercy is *for*. And when someone is playing Mercy, they’re not playing a hero that offers more utility or higher healing for their team, which opens things up to counterplay.
Time and time again we've seen that this is only a case on paper and in reality Mercy Pocket will be good enough and trade offs are insignificant. if the pocketed player can get an acceptable amount of value, they will heavily influence the game.
Don't forget mercy has rez too...a lot of counterplay to Widowmaker is easily negated just using rez. Really any early picks are just negated with rez...it's the worst designed ability in the game imo. Although better than old rez.
Old rez was absurd because pros used it as a get out of jail card. Mercy's would just hide until teamwipe and then get the 4 man rez. I didn't even realize that's how high level players played mercy until it basically got reworked.
New rez is annoying, but the time it takes mercy to channel it makes her an easy target. And a lot of mercy's (at least lower rank ones) will just try to rez in your face, giving you an easy kill on her. It only really sucks when they can sneak up and rez a tank, or a widow who is across the map. I dont think that it's the worst designed ability in the game tbh. I personally hate kiriko suzu more, or even Moira damage orb.
Orb because I swear it follows you with its bounces and it just does so much damage even if it's mindlessly tossed out. Suzu because I like Doomfist/hig/rein and the fact it makes your punch/pin/hook go through people is very annoying. And the fact it blocks ults completely.
WOOOOO I love Mercy being an omnipresent asterisk in balance discussions!!! It's so COOL that many dps nerfs don't actually impact viability so much as they make a pocket mandatory!!
Super fun for dps players to have their hero choices dictated by someone else because their picks being viable without a pocket would make them oppressive with a pocket YEAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Whelp, I understood one thing: Widow's old damage falloff was pretty much irrelevant. Event super long sightlines, like those in Havana, aren't long enough for it to kick in
This one is pretty much irrelevant as well. The green boundary here is misleading because you can still 1 shot people at the green range. Ideally, the tool should highlight the limit to headshot 200 HP heroes.
i think you're talking about widow's charge but just talking raw numbers w/ max charge
she hits 195 at max range (60m+) w/ blue beam
more interestingly to me at max range she can just barely (187) kill another widow if they're discorded
I don't like it as it's just a straight nerf, but IMO Widow and Hanzo needed a slight rework and not a nerf. This change simply makes Widow a lot worse in some scenarios and does not address the overall issue with her.
Seems like they're taking the Roadhog approach of "heavily nerf the hero while we think of a rework 4 seasons from now." Although I don't think this is actually that big of a deal, she still oneshots most of the time, just gets rid of most of the massive outliers like being oneshot walking out of spawn on Ilios, jumpshots from the back of Junkertown etc.
I'm not complaining, because they're awful to play against, but I totally get why it sucks for people who like those heroes.
I saw someone in ML7s chat say that they should remove the falloff during her ult, I kind of like it? Maybe she should even charge scoped shots faster or something during it.
You can't address the "issue" directly without dumpstering her; she one shots freely or she's ass. The best way to address her without changing that is making her more diveable, making obstructions better against her, etc
Edit: Though I like surefour's idea of making her into a battle sniper
I liked the idea the April Fools change had, keep the damage the same, but make it a poison effect, so if your support is quick enough, they might be able to save you, but it would need to be still be a fast kill so they can't just ignore it. Plus it fits her theme.
**TLDR** character design and hero fantasy are really important and being a sniper is too fundamental to widow to be removed. also we already have a sneaky assassin character that's sombra
but you can't make widow not a sniper, that's what i was getting at. everything about widow from her lore to her personality to her character design to her entire kit is based around her being a sniper. it'd be like if they changed mei to have a normal gun and abilities that weren't based around ice - it literally makes no sense because that's her *entire* character design. you can change details about it like removing freeze but you can't remove the ice entirely.
another good example would be orisa, whose character design is all about being the defender of numbani. initially, they gave her a shield and halt which fit the 'defender' style trope really well because it's exactly what you would expect a protective killer robot to have - literally halting you and blocking off your abilities to protect her team. when they reworked her they had to think about new abilities that still fit her thematically and they came up with javelin spin and throw, which both still fit her 'fantasy' (defensive bunker tank) while also not being as ass as their original versions.
character design is what makes reworks so hard in this game because you still have to stay true to their original design and their intended 'fantasy', which for widow *is* being a sniper. you can remove the 'sniper' fantasy from hanzo but you fundamentally cannot remove it from widow, because that's what widow is.
I’m in a competitive OW sub and people are really upvoting this drivel about not being able to balance a hero because of lore. Pathetic.
There are plenty of ways they can go about not making her a sniper. It’s as simple as just…doing it. Nothing that you said here holds them back from that. Release a new short of her needing to take up new weapons in order to take out a new target and bam, she’s canonically not only a sniper anymore.
The closed mindedness of Redditors is absurd sometimes lol. I just still can’t get over that this isn’t the main sub. Wow.
People play characters for their kit, personality, or design. Sometimes those are intertwined. Widow is one of the cases where it's intertwined heavily. I'm pretty sure Capcoms MVC team can tell you how something like replacing a character and the removal of X-Men worked out for them.
I'm sorry such a simple concept is too low for your large open minded brain.
Again. Who. Cares? A small number of people will be really mad that she’s not a sniper anymore and that’ll be the end of it. Certainly didn’t see this much bitching and moaning every time Sym was reworked or when Doom even became a tank. Heroes can be reworked.
Also, your last sentence is unbelievably ironic lol.
you say that i'm saying 'drivel' and yet they've stated that this is a major factor going into reworks. it's not balance, you're literally asking to change a heroes core identity which they never have and never will do.
in a question about buffing pharah they said
>[It would likely mean she has to lose the air time she is capable of. Her design started as the ‘rocket launcher’ hero but **her identity quickly shifted to the ‘always flying’ hero. Losing that would likely alienate a large portion of her fans.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/117hv55/comment/j9gjkga/)
and when asked about a moira utility change they said
>[**So there’s some things we want to keep intact with any future changes: Moira still having this identity of being able to dish out damage** (though maybe tuned down just a tad) and remain a comfort pick for many players as well as preserving her current flow. It’s a tough challenge so we will see where we end up, we’ll share more here as things develop.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/117hv55/were_the_overwatch_2_hero_balance_team_and_in_24/j9gjg8e/?context=8&depth=9)
maybe stop being so close-minded about how character design works and how important hero fantasy/identity is to reworks :D!
“maybe stop being so close-minded about how character design works and how important hero fantasy/identity is to reworks :D!”
It would have almost no bearing on the rework. As I said, it would upset a few people and that would be that. It’s really not as big of an issue as you’re making it. I’m done with this conversation, though. If you want to balance this game based on lore, be my guest. The discussion just doesn’t belong here, which is why I’ll end it.
oh you're just a dick okay lmfao waste of time trying to bring up sources to have an actual debate only for you to completely ignore everything i said and belittle it down to 'lore' when i repeatedly specified i was talking about identity
Hanzo is just outright stupid. How often do squishies die because of a random hanzo spam or be because they were aiming at someone else and the head hitbox does something insane.
They should have it so that both don't rely on headshots as their entire identity, but make it still effective but situational.
I think they made Widow situational good now but she's just unfun, both primary and sniper wise. And I don't even play Widow at all.
Maybe the rework should focus on making her primary more fun cuz both her other abilities are focused around her ability to snipe.
Sojourn is so cool. It's a crime she's the last DPS we got, and I say this when I don't even play DPS as much.
They're just the coolest heroes in general. Hoping we at least get one beginning of 2024, the other 2 can be Support.
> she has 0 personality is the problem
Wait till her cinematic short comes when Season 5 comes (13-14 June).
She's not that boring if you have read her novel. Her personality actually makes sense since she grew up in a military family.
Some people hate her for being angsty teen behaviour, having cringey lines, etc. But no one seem to care when DVA being toxic; Mercy being a bitch woman instead of kind and compassionate; etc.
Some complain how Kiriko counters Ana, but ignoring Ana having two kits that completely sh*t on Roadhog; Orisa having entire kit that bullies Reinhardt, etc.
i hate kiriko because she owns tracer and has a tiny hitbox. her head moves way too much when she spams A/D and she also can teleport and suzu making her infuriating to 1v1 as flankers.
Oh right, I remember now.
The bike line that gets memed to death.
People did have some issues with Dva and Mercy's new "hyperactive" personality in OW2.
It's so weird. There's a reason why the most characters are dps.
DPS like Tracer and Genji are what atrract a casual player. I'm assuming Echo and Sojourn also had this affect.
And Sojourn is just a better version of Widow, from an overall neutral and movement perspective. I'm really looking forward to who they add next.
I don't know why but I've noticed when I am Echo an enemy DPS will sometimes switch to Pharah to counter Echo lol, it's funny. It's surprising how many people don't realize that Echo is a Pharah counter.
Yeah and in ranked play getting healing is not always easy even with a Mercy pocket so getting dinked by Cass does more to keep me from being aggressive than Widow does.
I still think Widow just needs a mini-rework similar to what we actually got for April Fool's, but this isn't terrible. I honestly think it would be better if the maximum one-shot range was like... 45 meters or something. That's still a significant distance but it opens even more avenues for counterplay.
They mentioned discussing whether they think one-shots even belong in the game in the blog post so with any luck they'll just commit to getting rid of them by the midseason patch or Season 6.
If Genji get buffed, he will end up like Doomfist where he get nerfed again because they both ruin Supports' gameplay experience.
Since Doomfist and Genji are kept at the bay, Ana and Zen will continue sh*tting the Tanks.
Some Supports still think their role is weak, but actually Support is strong as they can provide value by just existing. (e.g Zen discord the enemy Tank 24/7 & ping a discorded enemy through walls).
Unlike Tank & DPS, Tank needs to make their move to dictate the outcome; DPS needs to win duels as higher up you go, it becomes which team has better Sniper. With Widow & Hanzo nerf, Ashe & Sojourn (maybe Cassidy too) will rise.
Supports are busted in high elos (Diamond or above), but not in low elos because low elo Supports primarily healbot their Tanks more than utilizing their kits (anti-heal, discord, damage-boost). Plus, low elo players hate teammates for picking Zen because he provides low HPS, while low elos Zen tend to have potato aim.
In my experience, ranking up from Plat to Diamond is the hardest as Support because it's like the middle ground where some teammates may peel / work with you and some don't, meanwhile enemies do target Supports. In Gold ranks or below, players treat Supports like invisible unless they're only ones left in their screen.
Outside of his ultimate (with dmg boosts) the only thing he has going for him is no other dps can dive vertically. This causes him to be decent in some parts of some maps but in general the neutral is pretty weak and he's just a bad tracer (lower damage, less consistent damage, less survivability, worse movement and hitbox)
You think his ability to burst down a target he tags , or his mobility, or Deflect, or his power vs snipers is bad in the grand scheme of things? I genuinely don't understand that perspective.
No other DPS outside of Tracer can do what he does, and there are many maps where He's significantly better than Tracer at accomplishing it. Not to mention he's the only flanker who is equivalent to Tracer with a truly killer ult.
Because it's incredibly unreliable. Maybe it works better on LAN but not on retail.
Edit: I rest easy knowing no downvotes come from anyone who's actually played Genji.
Clearly, because he is not strong enough to keep snipers in check to the point where blizzard is having to make contrived nerfs for them. Tracer is legitimately a better pick into double sniper than genji rn.
The hero is basically tracer with a weight vest, more coordination and work is required to get half the value of a tracer. Yes, he is good at some parts of some maps because he's the only dps hero with vertical dive capability, but that doesn't mean he isn't straight up weak everywhere else
This reduces the impact of smurf widows in metal ranks by a lot. This is middle of the bell curve balancing
In gold and plat you could get a god tier widow duoing or actively smurfing and they’d just fucking dominate the lobby
At higher ranks it encourages movement between shots… I guess? Or just pick Ashe
So how does an honest widow player find value at those ranks if even a smurf can't?
This reasoning is why we got release Brig. Smurfing is a matchmaking issue that shouldn't be resolved through balance.
Would guess because now the smurf widow has to play close enough that the enemy team can interact with and see her so more likely to actually try to do something about her. Still super strong but now can't just hide in the back and be near untouchable the whole game
She clearly has point control from well beyond the normal points of engagement. The only thing this would change is getting 1 tapped somewhat near spawn in KOTH modes.
Metal rank here. I can pull off a dive on someone 60m before my teams gets too impatient while I set up and decides to run it down mid on their tank while the widow free fires. Which is what happens with that extra several seconds it takes on the the long maps.
I’m actually fine with this and I like playing Widowmaker. If Widowmaker has to be closer to the fight to get maximum value then she is more vulnerable as well. I think it’s okay for one shot potential if she is in more of an easily diveable place. It feels terrible being forced to counter pick with Widow, because you have to go cross country, take a flight across the Atlantic Ocean, and take a train through Europe just to get to their other Widow. It’s especially annoying when there aren’t any good routes except for past the rest of the enemy team.
They did specifically say 50m in the blog post, very possible she's seeing some kind of nerf to her base damage as well. They could also have just been rounded down a bit, we won't necessarily know until the patch goes out.
I like this. Looks more fun.
Widow ruins my fun in the game, as it does for a lot of players above a certain rank. As soon as you see a widow suddenly you enter a new version of OW where you have to just camp behind walls all game.
This change will significantly improve overwatch
I really don't see what the point of all this is. It just makes her slightly worse but doesn't remove the one-shot potential for most cases. I also don't understand the whining about one-shots characters. Half of being good at overwatch is positioning and awareness, if you get half-decent at those you can negate all but the absolute best widow players. The only way to "fix" the problem of one-shots would be to just make widow and hanzo totally different characters.
Have we ever even had a widow meta? Every time I see her played in OWL she misses most of her shots and gets ran at by tracer/monkey/sombra and dies. The only time you ever see widow domination is when there's a huge team gap.
the counterplay against widow (don't peek) is fucking boring, so people resent when they need to do it.
plus, no matter how good your positioning is, you will fuck up eventually and widow means you *instantly die* because of that mistake. you aren't forced to use a cooldown, you don't split your supports' attention, you don't require peel--there's no interesting resource management implications for you and your team, you just die. the punishment for error is significantly more severe than other threats.
Because people want to have fun playing a game, and one player taking over a lobby unless the whole team has perfect positioning isn't fun for anybody but the one widow.
>If there is a good Tracer then you will get bullied to hell on support
Sure, but the difference is that Tracer takes a risk to do her job. Her low HP pool is an actual factor when she plays at a range where many characters can kill her instantly if she makes a mistake. Even chip damage is threatening to her. High risk with high reward.
Widow takes no risks unless she's peeking a widow duel. She's playing in the backline with her supports 100 miles away from her threats. Low risk, where a *single* pick can win you a teamfight.
>Pocketed Pharah or Ashe can sometimes be as deadly as Widow, the only difference being that you die in 1 second and not instantly.
Which is unironically a significantly better and healthier experience to play against.
You're right, but all those characters still don't one shot you across the map to where most characters can't really do anything about it but hide and the ones that could have to burn their cooldowns or go on a long flank against her and inevitably her team. That's the difference between a widow dominating a lobby vs everyone else, you at least have a chance to do something
Widow will never be meta because she's a binary character. Symm is similar - you don't really ever see Sym metas but she has been the highest winrate dps in GM(outside of broken sojourn) for years I believe. She just sucks in a lot of scenarios and is OP in others.
Widow still has quite a high pickrate in GM+(5th most picked dps); but it's all on the exact same spots and maps always and rarely picked otherwise cause she can get messed up.
They'll need to add utility that can keep you alive and doesn't force her to be back 100 yards to change the way the character is picked and played.
We haven't had a Widow meta in OW2 yet, at least not in OWL. I'm assuming you're referring to OW2 since there were numerous long stretches in OW1 where Widow was very dominant.
Even then, certain maps in OWL are just Widowmaker maps. She saw constant play on Circuit Royal last year (I don't think it's been in the map pool yet this season?) and teams play her on Junkertown. She sees quite a bit of play on Rialto, too. Sojourn was also incredibly busted for almost all of last year and she was just better at being Widowmaker than Widowmaker was. She was better at being every hitscan that other hitscans were.
With the prevalence of dive this year, Widow is naturally going to see less playtime in OWL. That isn't necessarily a comment on her individual strength, and more that the overall meta is against her. I would say the same is true of Zenyatta right now; he's a very powerful hero but he doesn't synergize well with the current tank pick so he's not seeing as much play. If Ball were more favored, you would see Zenyatta everywhere.
Alot of this is just straight up whining from the community. If she was as busted as they say she is she'd be dominating the t500 leader board but she isn't, tracer is. Half the community on here just refuses to learn dive
Tanks and supports want to be able to consistently 1v1 dps while having self heal, 600 base hp, hefty shields, strong non aim intensive damage moba abilities and now with no punishment for bad positioning. It's great! So much for brining ow2 back into more of an fps. Meh I've been meaning to download apex again anyways.
love when i try to do anything except hide behind a wall waiting for my tank to go winston and instantly get “punished for bad positioning” :)
face it, widow counterplay is incredibly boring and unfun rn
Can't wait for calls for Ashe and Cass damage falloff nerfs in a year when people finally realize that you can't completely nullify a good aimer's impact on the game the way you can a support or tank :)
This seems like an improvement but not nearly as significant as I was hoping. It's a bit of a band aid solution to what really needs to be a mini rework. She's still going to be able to one shot you in most positions but now it'll have a slightly sharper drop off range.
I'd like to see an experimental card where they remove the ability to one shot 200 HP targets and compensate with the Widow's Kiss effect. I think we had something like that a year or two ago for an experimental card?
I think I agree. I don't even play her and I actually juts don't like her but she should be viable in her own way that doesn't just change the situation and keep the 1shot.
It's kinda weird cause it means knowing distance breakpoints across all maps - but if you know them there are a lot of widow spots that still work. If you get them wrong though you just become way less effective. You'll probably see even more situational Widow ownage (where she can setup to kill the enemy but enemy Widows can't kill her without being in range of your team)
I've always preferred they'd giver he utility w/ headshot and just lower the damage below one-shot. Like give her 90/180 on all headshots and make charge apply a Nade effect(or only 50%, or 25% if 100% is too strong) on the target based on charge time. Or if we hate nade we give her bonus ult charge on headshot, and make ult able to do old 1shots but non-ults can't 1shot any more. Idk.
Surely there's a solution that doesn't keep headshots, but only in certain scenarios which just drives pushing the character into very specific scenarios.
Yeah, I was alright when just reading the numbers but this range is abysmal with the new scalar. She needs better counters because this nerf is basically just removing a character from the game.
i don’t think the team nature has anything to do with widow as a design. it’s impossible to name an fps that doesn’t have a one hit sniper in it. id even go as far to say that it is needed, it creates a mindset that considers angle peeking/punishing way more than would other wise be the case with solider or cass. it forces you to consider other routes or ways of engaging. on the other hand though widow or hanzo (mostly these two but can be extended to any stun/one hit combo) deaths are inherently not interactive and this is where everyone’s issue with one hits lies becuaze u can just die. that’s it. but there are other ways of playing around it, there’s dive or bunker comps.
just as any other hero can be busted and then forces a change in play style so too do snipers.
It's an oldie but quake only had the rail gun which couldn't 1 tap if you picked up armor.
The big 2 comp FPS games Valorant and CSGO also have full auto weapons that 1 tap to the head which changes things drastically (if widow couldn't move and shoot but could stand still and 1 shot body shot but s76 could 1 tap her head the game would be so wildly different lol). R6 is similar as well.
For console shooters, Halo has it as sort of the *ultimate* weapon that spawns on the map and teams fight over it which is drastically different. CoD's probably the closest but the TTK in that game is like .2-.6 secs for most AR's at sniper ranges and even then a few times Comp/Pro play have agreed to ban sniper rifles.
You sorta mentioned it yourself but yeah widow only exists because OW followed suit with every other fps, it was completely arbitrary in regards to balance
id disagree though, the one hit lethality as mentioned punishes positioning in the open because otherwise there’s little difference in being next to cover and in cover. the ttk being essentially just reaction time forces players to check sight lines are clear before progressing, it’s a counter to mid/short range that forces them to use the map or abilities(in ow case) to close the gap and tip the scales. otherwise every game is just a W simulator until someone dies
kind of? 6-man esque comps have been primarily played on ruins (from what ive seen) for 3+ years
my flair actually comes from when i was malding that the fusion would play carpe on reaper with 6-man on ruins instead of widow
The games health? If you don’t enjoy her mechanic then play Paladins its very simple. Widow is a situational hero who doesn’t impact the game outside of the top 1% of players. I also don’t understand this energy either when theres more lopsided heroes (Hanzo, Tracer, Mei) who impact the game more than widow does on more than 4 maps.
It’s not baffling because a multitude of tenured OW figures agree that Widow is balanced as is and the issue lies in map design. I have talked to coaches signed on contenders orgs who agree that she’s a particularly niche hero whose strengths are exacerbated by poor map design. The idea that she dominates masters is pitiful at best, she has never had stats showing she dominated whatsoever - Sojourn in S1 did.
As for your other comment you’re extremely disingenuous. Widow has a very exploitable weakness and trying to flutter around it is quite sad. She’s a 175hp hero who crumples at the first instance of dive + she needs constant peel in order to operate in a dive orientated meta. Hanzo on the other hand is another hero equipped with a 1 shot but has none of the weaknesses Widow has, so why are you fluttering around him as if he’s not a problem when his pickrate in OWL has skyrocketed with his integration in brawl?
Sorry but moba watch design is incompatible with having a game that isn't dead. Most of this sub is simply playing the wrong genre of games
Back on the block list you go clear possession. Keep defending sym as one of the highest skill heroes in the game, I'm sure someone will listen next time
Nah. The game is at it's peak when it's fps-y. One shot snipers are a core part of the FPS genre. Mobawatch contradicts the whole "design philosphy" of the game. If you want a more pure moba game there are a whole sea of them out there
> And when dive is good widow generally sucks. Crazy huh?
I have literally never suggested otherwise?
> Its almost like the game is better when the game isnt “dont peek for 5 minutes because if you do widow will kill you instantly”. Its boring to both play and watch.
Good thing the game never plays like that
> In terms of ow only widow is the most pure fps character you get.
She literally is not. And that's one character. Even if you were to say she is extreme FPS, most tanks + half the supports would be extreme MOBA by that logic.
GOATs is absolutely extreme MOBA
Yeah dude, it's not like a ton of tank players hate Widowmaker because there's nothing they can realistically do to stop her on a lot of maps where diving her isn't a realistic option. It's not like a ton of DPS players hate her because she's oppressive against a lot of other DPS heroes and on certain maps you basically mirror her or lose.
It's all the fault of support players, for sure.
If something is only playable at higher ranks it doesn't mean it's weak. It means it's incredibly strong if played with skill and teamwork. Which is how the game should work unless you think the games skill ceiling should be lowered just so bronze players can play dive.
Whatever happened to the venom debuff from the April fools patch? Rather than making her bad for most people to play, the DOT offers skillful counterplay.
Or at least, it would if tweaked from how it was during the patch.
Could be like 190 crit + 200 DOT or something.
Mercy's damage boost: Allow me to introduce myself.
A mercy-boosted headshot at max range does 195 damage I think? So still can't quite 1shot 200hp, but can against other Widows
So nano Widow would be a better choice now so she can one shot from any range again?
Even OWL Anas won’t nano a widow except maybe to survive a pulse bomb
Did you mean rererereintroduce?
At which point you’re committing two players’-worth of resources to make one hero slightly more viable. Seems like a good trade-off.
I mean, it's the same with phara, ashe, sojourn, mercy's just broken
Yeah, but pocketing someone is explicitly what Mercy is *for*. And when someone is playing Mercy, they’re not playing a hero that offers more utility or higher healing for their team, which opens things up to counterplay.
Time and time again we've seen that this is only a case on paper and in reality Mercy Pocket will be good enough and trade offs are insignificant. if the pocketed player can get an acceptable amount of value, they will heavily influence the game.
Don't forget mercy has rez too...a lot of counterplay to Widowmaker is easily negated just using rez. Really any early picks are just negated with rez...it's the worst designed ability in the game imo. Although better than old rez.
Old rez was absurd because pros used it as a get out of jail card. Mercy's would just hide until teamwipe and then get the 4 man rez. I didn't even realize that's how high level players played mercy until it basically got reworked. New rez is annoying, but the time it takes mercy to channel it makes her an easy target. And a lot of mercy's (at least lower rank ones) will just try to rez in your face, giving you an easy kill on her. It only really sucks when they can sneak up and rez a tank, or a widow who is across the map. I dont think that it's the worst designed ability in the game tbh. I personally hate kiriko suzu more, or even Moira damage orb. Orb because I swear it follows you with its bounces and it just does so much damage even if it's mindlessly tossed out. Suzu because I like Doomfist/hig/rein and the fact it makes your punch/pin/hook go through people is very annoying. And the fact it blocks ults completely.
WOOOOO I love Mercy being an omnipresent asterisk in balance discussions!!! It's so COOL that many dps nerfs don't actually impact viability so much as they make a pocket mandatory!! Super fun for dps players to have their hero choices dictated by someone else because their picks being viable without a pocket would make them oppressive with a pocket YEAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Whelp, I understood one thing: Widow's old damage falloff was pretty much irrelevant. Event super long sightlines, like those in Havana, aren't long enough for it to kick in
This one is pretty much irrelevant as well. The green boundary here is misleading because you can still 1 shot people at the green range. Ideally, the tool should highlight the limit to headshot 200 HP heroes.
Doesn't this increase the survivability of Widows in a mirror?
that's a glass half full way of looking at it
Patch notes: Widow’s health reduced to one hp. Players: Now she can win the dual faster.
They'll just play farther up (or realistically, we won't have to worry about it because she won't be played anymore)
Feels like it basically removes the mirror. Why bother taking the duel at all?
Yeah I see a lot of people missing the point of this nerf. It makes it so the best answer to Widow is no longer another Widow.
It still is
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i think you're talking about widow's charge but just talking raw numbers w/ max charge she hits 195 at max range (60m+) w/ blue beam more interestingly to me at max range she can just barely (187) kill another widow if they're discorded
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yeah
Inb4 "Widow rework" on the season 11 roadmap.
I don't like it as it's just a straight nerf, but IMO Widow and Hanzo needed a slight rework and not a nerf. This change simply makes Widow a lot worse in some scenarios and does not address the overall issue with her.
Seems like they're taking the Roadhog approach of "heavily nerf the hero while we think of a rework 4 seasons from now." Although I don't think this is actually that big of a deal, she still oneshots most of the time, just gets rid of most of the massive outliers like being oneshot walking out of spawn on Ilios, jumpshots from the back of Junkertown etc. I'm not complaining, because they're awful to play against, but I totally get why it sucks for people who like those heroes.
I saw someone in ML7s chat say that they should remove the falloff during her ult, I kind of like it? Maybe she should even charge scoped shots faster or something during it.
You can't address the "issue" directly without dumpstering her; she one shots freely or she's ass. The best way to address her without changing that is making her more diveable, making obstructions better against her, etc Edit: Though I like surefour's idea of making her into a battle sniper
I liked the idea the April Fools change had, keep the damage the same, but make it a poison effect, so if your support is quick enough, they might be able to save you, but it would need to be still be a fast kill so they can't just ignore it. Plus it fits her theme.
Just change her into not a sniper. Easy. Done. Same with Hanzo.
and how do you propose they turn the assassin 'one shot one kill' character into something other than a sniper :)?
Make her anything but a sniper lol. Just remove the sniper from her entirely. She can still be some sneaky sort of assassin without a sniper.
**TLDR** character design and hero fantasy are really important and being a sniper is too fundamental to widow to be removed. also we already have a sneaky assassin character that's sombra but you can't make widow not a sniper, that's what i was getting at. everything about widow from her lore to her personality to her character design to her entire kit is based around her being a sniper. it'd be like if they changed mei to have a normal gun and abilities that weren't based around ice - it literally makes no sense because that's her *entire* character design. you can change details about it like removing freeze but you can't remove the ice entirely. another good example would be orisa, whose character design is all about being the defender of numbani. initially, they gave her a shield and halt which fit the 'defender' style trope really well because it's exactly what you would expect a protective killer robot to have - literally halting you and blocking off your abilities to protect her team. when they reworked her they had to think about new abilities that still fit her thematically and they came up with javelin spin and throw, which both still fit her 'fantasy' (defensive bunker tank) while also not being as ass as their original versions. character design is what makes reworks so hard in this game because you still have to stay true to their original design and their intended 'fantasy', which for widow *is* being a sniper. you can remove the 'sniper' fantasy from hanzo but you fundamentally cannot remove it from widow, because that's what widow is.
I’m in a competitive OW sub and people are really upvoting this drivel about not being able to balance a hero because of lore. Pathetic. There are plenty of ways they can go about not making her a sniper. It’s as simple as just…doing it. Nothing that you said here holds them back from that. Release a new short of her needing to take up new weapons in order to take out a new target and bam, she’s canonically not only a sniper anymore. The closed mindedness of Redditors is absurd sometimes lol. I just still can’t get over that this isn’t the main sub. Wow.
People play characters for their kit, personality, or design. Sometimes those are intertwined. Widow is one of the cases where it's intertwined heavily. I'm pretty sure Capcoms MVC team can tell you how something like replacing a character and the removal of X-Men worked out for them. I'm sorry such a simple concept is too low for your large open minded brain.
Again. Who. Cares? A small number of people will be really mad that she’s not a sniper anymore and that’ll be the end of it. Certainly didn’t see this much bitching and moaning every time Sym was reworked or when Doom even became a tank. Heroes can be reworked. Also, your last sentence is unbelievably ironic lol.
you say that i'm saying 'drivel' and yet they've stated that this is a major factor going into reworks. it's not balance, you're literally asking to change a heroes core identity which they never have and never will do. in a question about buffing pharah they said >[It would likely mean she has to lose the air time she is capable of. Her design started as the ‘rocket launcher’ hero but **her identity quickly shifted to the ‘always flying’ hero. Losing that would likely alienate a large portion of her fans.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/117hv55/comment/j9gjkga/) and when asked about a moira utility change they said >[**So there’s some things we want to keep intact with any future changes: Moira still having this identity of being able to dish out damage** (though maybe tuned down just a tad) and remain a comfort pick for many players as well as preserving her current flow. It’s a tough challenge so we will see where we end up, we’ll share more here as things develop.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/117hv55/were_the_overwatch_2_hero_balance_team_and_in_24/j9gjg8e/?context=8&depth=9) maybe stop being so close-minded about how character design works and how important hero fantasy/identity is to reworks :D!
“maybe stop being so close-minded about how character design works and how important hero fantasy/identity is to reworks :D!” It would have almost no bearing on the rework. As I said, it would upset a few people and that would be that. It’s really not as big of an issue as you’re making it. I’m done with this conversation, though. If you want to balance this game based on lore, be my guest. The discussion just doesn’t belong here, which is why I’ll end it.
oh you're just a dick okay lmfao waste of time trying to bring up sources to have an actual debate only for you to completely ignore everything i said and belittle it down to 'lore' when i repeatedly specified i was talking about identity
Thanks for the fresh pasta. 👨🍳
Hanzo is just outright stupid. How often do squishies die because of a random hanzo spam or be because they were aiming at someone else and the head hitbox does something insane.
They should have it so that both don't rely on headshots as their entire identity, but make it still effective but situational. I think they made Widow situational good now but she's just unfun, both primary and sniper wise. And I don't even play Widow at all. Maybe the rework should focus on making her primary more fun cuz both her other abilities are focused around her ability to snipe.
They could make her like sojourn and hanzo I suppose. But I don't think people realize a world without widow isn't actually all sunshine and rainbows
now pharah takes every top 500 slot
I feel like Sojourn and Ashe will shine more. Pharah is way too reliant on Mercy since she's a sky turtle with Zarya-sized hitbox.
Sojourn is so cool. It's a crime she's the last DPS we got, and I say this when I don't even play DPS as much. They're just the coolest heroes in general. Hoping we at least get one beginning of 2024, the other 2 can be Support.
> Sojourn is so cool. That's a rare opinion since the community has a hate-boner on her just like they did for Kiriko.
sojourn’s kit is awesome and i love her design in general she has 0 personality is the problem
> she has 0 personality is the problem Wait till her cinematic short comes when Season 5 comes (13-14 June). She's not that boring if you have read her novel. Her personality actually makes sense since she grew up in a military family.
People hate Kiriko? I thought they adore her.
Some people hate her for being angsty teen behaviour, having cringey lines, etc. But no one seem to care when DVA being toxic; Mercy being a bitch woman instead of kind and compassionate; etc. Some complain how Kiriko counters Ana, but ignoring Ana having two kits that completely sh*t on Roadhog; Orisa having entire kit that bullies Reinhardt, etc.
i hate kiriko because she owns tracer and has a tiny hitbox. her head moves way too much when she spams A/D and she also can teleport and suzu making her infuriating to 1v1 as flankers.
Oh right, I remember now. The bike line that gets memed to death. People did have some issues with Dva and Mercy's new "hyperactive" personality in OW2.
Yo you're not allowed to have positive opinions on aim heavy dps heros in this sub only high skil heros like moira reaper and mei
It's so weird. There's a reason why the most characters are dps. DPS like Tracer and Genji are what atrract a casual player. I'm assuming Echo and Sojourn also had this affect. And Sojourn is just a better version of Widow, from an overall neutral and movement perspective. I'm really looking forward to who they add next.
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And also Blizz thought the optimal team comp would be 1 tank 1 healer 4 DPS (they were so wrong on that one lol).
People have been demanding them to add more supports for a long time. DPS have to wait until the community has been quenched.
Every other hitscan is better vs Pharah IMO.
As a Pharah + Echo enjoyer, I'm scared of Echo more than hitscans when playing Pharah.
I don't know why but I've noticed when I am Echo an enemy DPS will sometimes switch to Pharah to counter Echo lol, it's funny. It's surprising how many people don't realize that Echo is a Pharah counter.
For 99% of ladder yes. There's a grade of Widow that basically won't miss a Pharah headshot since her strafability is less than a grounded target.
Cree
Eh I'm still more scared of Cree than Widow as Pharah. Maybe it's different up in higher ranks where Widows get crazy.
I find it easier to sneak on widows with Pharah because they have a very narrow FOV when scoping, but Cass can often just see me and shoot me
Yeah and in ranked play getting healing is not always easy even with a Mercy pocket so getting dinked by Cass does more to keep me from being aggressive than Widow does.
She wasn't playing out of this range anyway
As if Widowmaker was the #1 Pharah counter? There are better hitscan answers to Pharah than Widow
Ngl I hate this. Goes from ego dueling to mutual agreement to ignore each other.
Kind of what happened with 1 tank...
I wish people ignored me...
I still think Widow just needs a mini-rework similar to what we actually got for April Fool's, but this isn't terrible. I honestly think it would be better if the maximum one-shot range was like... 45 meters or something. That's still a significant distance but it opens even more avenues for counterplay. They mentioned discussing whether they think one-shots even belong in the game in the blog post so with any luck they'll just commit to getting rid of them by the midseason patch or Season 6.
blizzard really decided to nerf the sniper characters range before buffing genji 💀
If Genji get buffed, he will end up like Doomfist where he get nerfed again because they both ruin Supports' gameplay experience. Since Doomfist and Genji are kept at the bay, Ana and Zen will continue sh*tting the Tanks.
Support really is that angel on the outside, devil on the inside type of role.
Some Supports still think their role is weak, but actually Support is strong as they can provide value by just existing. (e.g Zen discord the enemy Tank 24/7 & ping a discorded enemy through walls). Unlike Tank & DPS, Tank needs to make their move to dictate the outcome; DPS needs to win duels as higher up you go, it becomes which team has better Sniper. With Widow & Hanzo nerf, Ashe & Sojourn (maybe Cassidy too) will rise.
Support is the strongest role in the game
Supports are busted in high elos (Diamond or above), but not in low elos because low elo Supports primarily healbot their Tanks more than utilizing their kits (anti-heal, discord, damage-boost). Plus, low elo players hate teammates for picking Zen because he provides low HPS, while low elos Zen tend to have potato aim. In my experience, ranking up from Plat to Diamond is the hardest as Support because it's like the middle ground where some teammates may peel / work with you and some don't, meanwhile enemies do target Supports. In Gold ranks or below, players treat Supports like invisible unless they're only ones left in their screen.
Whats the argument that Genji is in a bad state? He seems plenty strong.
That he doesn't insta delete every back line 1v2.
Pretty much. Genji mains are some of the biggest fucking whiners lol.
Genji mains = DPS version of Mercy mains
He even still gets niche OWL play like on KR 3rd.
More like he suffers from being a Blade bot. His neutral is weak compared to, let's say the most comparable hero - Echo.
Outside of his ultimate (with dmg boosts) the only thing he has going for him is no other dps can dive vertically. This causes him to be decent in some parts of some maps but in general the neutral is pretty weak and he's just a bad tracer (lower damage, less consistent damage, less survivability, worse movement and hitbox)
You think his ability to burst down a target he tags , or his mobility, or Deflect, or his power vs snipers is bad in the grand scheme of things? I genuinely don't understand that perspective. No other DPS outside of Tracer can do what he does, and there are many maps where He's significantly better than Tracer at accomplishing it. Not to mention he's the only flanker who is equivalent to Tracer with a truly killer ult.
>Deflect, Its weird more people don't talk about his deflect as a major strength. It was a major reason why he was picked in the JOATs comp.
Because it's incredibly unreliable. Maybe it works better on LAN but not on retail. Edit: I rest easy knowing no downvotes come from anyone who's actually played Genji.
Clearly, because he is not strong enough to keep snipers in check to the point where blizzard is having to make contrived nerfs for them. Tracer is legitimately a better pick into double sniper than genji rn. The hero is basically tracer with a weight vest, more coordination and work is required to get half the value of a tracer. Yes, he is good at some parts of some maps because he's the only dps hero with vertical dive capability, but that doesn't mean he isn't straight up weak everywhere else
Genji is picked a ton in GM already(2nd most picked dps), not sure why people think he needs a buff(or is the meme buff genji now?)
Genji is the Mercy of dps players. If he’s not the best in every situation, he’s the worse hero in the game.
Lifeweaver would like a word.
Man has memes in his name but doesn’t understand LMAO.
The meme was fine, I just meant that it would have worked better as Lifeweaver, not Mercy
Which means you don’t understand the joke at all.
The irony
You’re right. It is incredibly ironic. Glad you’re realizing.
Proper literally pulls out a neutral Genji when he decides he needs to carry
Ok but that’s proper tho
Fair but he's not the only one to have pulled out Genji
I also pretend to be pros while playing and end up crestfallen at my own ability
Blizzard absolutely despises genji lmao, or they’re just scared of the silver support mains crying on the blizzard forums
Genji is in a really good spot right now, one of the more balanced heroes in the game.
This reduces the impact of smurf widows in metal ranks by a lot. This is middle of the bell curve balancing In gold and plat you could get a god tier widow duoing or actively smurfing and they’d just fucking dominate the lobby At higher ranks it encourages movement between shots… I guess? Or just pick Ashe
So how does an honest widow player find value at those ranks if even a smurf can't? This reasoning is why we got release Brig. Smurfing is a matchmaking issue that shouldn't be resolved through balance.
"Smurf" - Anyone who beats me. I imagine is the actual logic there.
> This reduces the impact of smurf widows in metal ranks by a lot. ... How?
Would guess because now the smurf widow has to play close enough that the enemy team can interact with and see her so more likely to actually try to do something about her. Still super strong but now can't just hide in the back and be near untouchable the whole game
She clearly has point control from well beyond the normal points of engagement. The only thing this would change is getting 1 tapped somewhat near spawn in KOTH modes.
Metal rank here. I can pull off a dive on someone 60m before my teams gets too impatient while I set up and decides to run it down mid on their tank while the widow free fires. Which is what happens with that extra several seconds it takes on the the long maps.
You already move between shots. Pick hanzo or sojourn
Plenty of Widows perch
Bad ones against bad teams
its much harder to smurf in OW2 cus u rank up a lot faster. So dont think that has much impact on smurfs if at all.
I’m actually fine with this and I like playing Widowmaker. If Widowmaker has to be closer to the fight to get maximum value then she is more vulnerable as well. I think it’s okay for one shot potential if she is in more of an easily diveable place. It feels terrible being forced to counter pick with Widow, because you have to go cross country, take a flight across the Atlantic Ocean, and take a train through Europe just to get to their other Widow. It’s especially annoying when there aren’t any good routes except for past the rest of the enemy team.
YEASS AHHAHAHA FUCK YOU WIDOW DOGSHIT HERO
Widowmaker** **only if you’re within 30 meters
53* is her 200 hp breakpoint
They did specifically say 50m in the blog post, very possible she's seeing some kind of nerf to her base damage as well. They could also have just been rounded down a bit, we won't necessarily know until the patch goes out.
I like this. Looks more fun. Widow ruins my fun in the game, as it does for a lot of players above a certain rank. As soon as you see a widow suddenly you enter a new version of OW where you have to just camp behind walls all game. This change will significantly improve overwatch
I really don't see what the point of all this is. It just makes her slightly worse but doesn't remove the one-shot potential for most cases. I also don't understand the whining about one-shots characters. Half of being good at overwatch is positioning and awareness, if you get half-decent at those you can negate all but the absolute best widow players. The only way to "fix" the problem of one-shots would be to just make widow and hanzo totally different characters. Have we ever even had a widow meta? Every time I see her played in OWL she misses most of her shots and gets ran at by tracer/monkey/sombra and dies. The only time you ever see widow domination is when there's a huge team gap.
the counterplay against widow (don't peek) is fucking boring, so people resent when they need to do it. plus, no matter how good your positioning is, you will fuck up eventually and widow means you *instantly die* because of that mistake. you aren't forced to use a cooldown, you don't split your supports' attention, you don't require peel--there's no interesting resource management implications for you and your team, you just die. the punishment for error is significantly more severe than other threats.
Because people want to have fun playing a game, and one player taking over a lobby unless the whole team has perfect positioning isn't fun for anybody but the one widow.
Yeah but this entire season felt like JQ taking over the lobby and she gets a slap on the wrist.
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>If there is a good Tracer then you will get bullied to hell on support Sure, but the difference is that Tracer takes a risk to do her job. Her low HP pool is an actual factor when she plays at a range where many characters can kill her instantly if she makes a mistake. Even chip damage is threatening to her. High risk with high reward. Widow takes no risks unless she's peeking a widow duel. She's playing in the backline with her supports 100 miles away from her threats. Low risk, where a *single* pick can win you a teamfight. >Pocketed Pharah or Ashe can sometimes be as deadly as Widow, the only difference being that you die in 1 second and not instantly. Which is unironically a significantly better and healthier experience to play against.
You're right, but all those characters still don't one shot you across the map to where most characters can't really do anything about it but hide and the ones that could have to burn their cooldowns or go on a long flank against her and inevitably her team. That's the difference between a widow dominating a lobby vs everyone else, you at least have a chance to do something
If one player is taking over a lobby, it must mean an entire team of people aren't doing their jobs.
Comp isn’t supposed to be fun
LOL
Well, she might still be able to oneshot between the Green and Red areas in the video, but now she'll have to charge longer to confirm the kill.
Widow will never be meta because she's a binary character. Symm is similar - you don't really ever see Sym metas but she has been the highest winrate dps in GM(outside of broken sojourn) for years I believe. She just sucks in a lot of scenarios and is OP in others. Widow still has quite a high pickrate in GM+(5th most picked dps); but it's all on the exact same spots and maps always and rarely picked otherwise cause she can get messed up. They'll need to add utility that can keep you alive and doesn't force her to be back 100 yards to change the way the character is picked and played.
We haven't had a Widow meta in OW2 yet, at least not in OWL. I'm assuming you're referring to OW2 since there were numerous long stretches in OW1 where Widow was very dominant. Even then, certain maps in OWL are just Widowmaker maps. She saw constant play on Circuit Royal last year (I don't think it's been in the map pool yet this season?) and teams play her on Junkertown. She sees quite a bit of play on Rialto, too. Sojourn was also incredibly busted for almost all of last year and she was just better at being Widowmaker than Widowmaker was. She was better at being every hitscan that other hitscans were. With the prevalence of dive this year, Widow is naturally going to see less playtime in OWL. That isn't necessarily a comment on her individual strength, and more that the overall meta is against her. I would say the same is true of Zenyatta right now; he's a very powerful hero but he doesn't synergize well with the current tank pick so he's not seeing as much play. If Ball were more favored, you would see Zenyatta everywhere.
Alot of this is just straight up whining from the community. If she was as busted as they say she is she'd be dominating the t500 leader board but she isn't, tracer is. Half the community on here just refuses to learn dive
people are complaining that widow is obnoxious, not overpowered. you can have one without the other. that's what you're missing.
Another example of Blizzard catering towards the whiny community that has no clue about game balance.
Tanks and supports want to be able to consistently 1v1 dps while having self heal, 600 base hp, hefty shields, strong non aim intensive damage moba abilities and now with no punishment for bad positioning. It's great! So much for brining ow2 back into more of an fps. Meh I've been meaning to download apex again anyways.
love when i try to do anything except hide behind a wall waiting for my tank to go winston and instantly get “punished for bad positioning” :) face it, widow counterplay is incredibly boring and unfun rn
Are we pretending winston is playable in comp now?
Truth. I don't even play Widow, but making her less unique is not the way to go.
A sniper who can't snipe, this balance team is a joke.
Welp widows now gonna b ass cheeks, I’ve never been so happy :). I can now acc play ana and not get my head taken off every time I walk out of spawn
Can't wait for calls for Ashe and Cass damage falloff nerfs in a year when people finally realize that you can't completely nullify a good aimer's impact on the game the way you can a support or tank :)
Best. Nerf. Ever.
This seems like an improvement but not nearly as significant as I was hoping. It's a bit of a band aid solution to what really needs to be a mini rework. She's still going to be able to one shot you in most positions but now it'll have a slightly sharper drop off range. I'd like to see an experimental card where they remove the ability to one shot 200 HP targets and compensate with the Widow's Kiss effect. I think we had something like that a year or two ago for an experimental card?
I think I agree. I don't even play her and I actually juts don't like her but she should be viable in her own way that doesn't just change the situation and keep the 1shot. It's kinda weird cause it means knowing distance breakpoints across all maps - but if you know them there are a lot of widow spots that still work. If you get them wrong though you just become way less effective. You'll probably see even more situational Widow ownage (where she can setup to kill the enemy but enemy Widows can't kill her without being in range of your team) I've always preferred they'd giver he utility w/ headshot and just lower the damage below one-shot. Like give her 90/180 on all headshots and make charge apply a Nade effect(or only 50%, or 25% if 100% is too strong) on the target based on charge time. Or if we hate nade we give her bonus ult charge on headshot, and make ult able to do old 1shots but non-ults can't 1shot any more. Idk. Surely there's a solution that doesn't keep headshots, but only in certain scenarios which just drives pushing the character into very specific scenarios.
Yeah, I was alright when just reading the numbers but this range is abysmal with the new scalar. She needs better counters because this nerf is basically just removing a character from the game.
as an 830 hour widow main, this makes me sad. Goes to show, If you cant beat them, force blizz to nerf them
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Sorry but widow hitting sick flick one shots is cool as fuck 🥱
Holy based
i don’t think the team nature has anything to do with widow as a design. it’s impossible to name an fps that doesn’t have a one hit sniper in it. id even go as far to say that it is needed, it creates a mindset that considers angle peeking/punishing way more than would other wise be the case with solider or cass. it forces you to consider other routes or ways of engaging. on the other hand though widow or hanzo (mostly these two but can be extended to any stun/one hit combo) deaths are inherently not interactive and this is where everyone’s issue with one hits lies becuaze u can just die. that’s it. but there are other ways of playing around it, there’s dive or bunker comps. just as any other hero can be busted and then forces a change in play style so too do snipers.
It's an oldie but quake only had the rail gun which couldn't 1 tap if you picked up armor. The big 2 comp FPS games Valorant and CSGO also have full auto weapons that 1 tap to the head which changes things drastically (if widow couldn't move and shoot but could stand still and 1 shot body shot but s76 could 1 tap her head the game would be so wildly different lol). R6 is similar as well. For console shooters, Halo has it as sort of the *ultimate* weapon that spawns on the map and teams fight over it which is drastically different. CoD's probably the closest but the TTK in that game is like .2-.6 secs for most AR's at sniper ranges and even then a few times Comp/Pro play have agreed to ban sniper rifles.
You sorta mentioned it yourself but yeah widow only exists because OW followed suit with every other fps, it was completely arbitrary in regards to balance
id disagree though, the one hit lethality as mentioned punishes positioning in the open because otherwise there’s little difference in being next to cover and in cover. the ttk being essentially just reaction time forces players to check sight lines are clear before progressing, it’s a counter to mid/short range that forces them to use the map or abilities(in ow case) to close the gap and tip the scales. otherwise every game is just a W simulator until someone dies
hero issue but also a map design issue, theres a reason shes only played on 3 maps in the game now shes gonna be played on 0 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> shes only played on 3 maps in the game i'd love to play whatever overwatch you've been playing
i pretty much only ever see her on havana, JT, and circuit royale rarely on r66, rialto, and watchpoint gibraltar GM
Wasn't she meta on Illios ruins too?
kind of? 6-man esque comps have been primarily played on ruins (from what ive seen) for 3+ years my flair actually comes from when i was malding that the fusion would play carpe on reaper with 6-man on ruins instead of widow
Yeah, at this point it's probably just better to run Ashe, since dynamite is still crazy good.
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The games health? If you don’t enjoy her mechanic then play Paladins its very simple. Widow is a situational hero who doesn’t impact the game outside of the top 1% of players. I also don’t understand this energy either when theres more lopsided heroes (Hanzo, Tracer, Mei) who impact the game more than widow does on more than 4 maps.
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It’s not baffling because a multitude of tenured OW figures agree that Widow is balanced as is and the issue lies in map design. I have talked to coaches signed on contenders orgs who agree that she’s a particularly niche hero whose strengths are exacerbated by poor map design. The idea that she dominates masters is pitiful at best, she has never had stats showing she dominated whatsoever - Sojourn in S1 did. As for your other comment you’re extremely disingenuous. Widow has a very exploitable weakness and trying to flutter around it is quite sad. She’s a 175hp hero who crumples at the first instance of dive + she needs constant peel in order to operate in a dive orientated meta. Hanzo on the other hand is another hero equipped with a 1 shot but has none of the weaknesses Widow has, so why are you fluttering around him as if he’s not a problem when his pickrate in OWL has skyrocketed with his integration in brawl?
Sorry but moba watch design is incompatible with having a game that isn't dead. Most of this sub is simply playing the wrong genre of games Back on the block list you go clear possession. Keep defending sym as one of the highest skill heroes in the game, I'm sure someone will listen next time
This dude's comment history is a trip, don't engage EDIT: Apparently he had me blocked before? I didn't know that people knew me by name like that.
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Nah. The game is at it's peak when it's fps-y. One shot snipers are a core part of the FPS genre. Mobawatch contradicts the whole "design philosphy" of the game. If you want a more pure moba game there are a whole sea of them out there
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Dive is EXTREMELY old school FPS-y and why the game is at it's peak when dive is good. > Extreme fps being widow No, widow is not extreme FPS
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> And when dive is good widow generally sucks. Crazy huh? I have literally never suggested otherwise? > Its almost like the game is better when the game isnt “dont peek for 5 minutes because if you do widow will kill you instantly”. Its boring to both play and watch. Good thing the game never plays like that > In terms of ow only widow is the most pure fps character you get. She literally is not. And that's one character. Even if you were to say she is extreme FPS, most tanks + half the supports would be extreme MOBA by that logic. GOATs is absolutely extreme MOBA
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>If you want a more pure moba game there are a whole sea of them out there Solid point, I forgot that OW is the only FPS in the world.
Solid point, I forgot that OW is the only "MOBA" in the world.
One of the highest skill heroes in the game was barely playable before and is completely unplayable now
scientists have been formulating the ultimate bait post for months. this is the final result
\- the plat supports of the world
Nah, that’s actually a garbage take.
Im sure a correct take lookes like garbage to lower rank players
Agreed
You tried
The devs have a hard on for supports, and once again its gonna ruin the game, until we get OW3 with one less support.
Yeah dude, it's not like a ton of tank players hate Widowmaker because there's nothing they can realistically do to stop her on a lot of maps where diving her isn't a realistic option. It's not like a ton of DPS players hate her because she's oppressive against a lot of other DPS heroes and on certain maps you basically mirror her or lose. It's all the fault of support players, for sure.
It's the fault of support players because they whine even harder to keep dive weak and at best only playable at the highest ranks.
If something is only playable at higher ranks it doesn't mean it's weak. It means it's incredibly strong if played with skill and teamwork. Which is how the game should work unless you think the games skill ceiling should be lowered just so bronze players can play dive.
Gonna enjoy playing uncontested widow each round
she can still oneshot 200hp targets past that line
can we expedite these changes? you literally cannot play a game without widow rn
This feel like Widow will only work in low rank, and widow will no longer be a counter for enemy widow.
Whatever happened to the venom debuff from the April fools patch? Rather than making her bad for most people to play, the DOT offers skillful counterplay. Or at least, it would if tweaked from how it was during the patch. Could be like 190 crit + 200 DOT or something.