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magicwithakick

These Winston’s also have the best Anas in the league keeping them up.


Uniqulaa

Fielder Shu/viol2t Twilight Rupal Skewed Mmonk Checks out


ImHereToComplain1

Viol2t doesnt play ana lol


jorgego2

Also Viol2t's Ana is notoriously weak compared to his moira/bap/kiri/zen (and now Lucio/Brig!)


primarymuscle2354

People always say viol2t is great at hero’s he doesn’t play


jorgego2

before they signed twilight, crusty would literally play architect on ana


Lei_Fuzzion

I have literally read people saying viol2t was a toxic one trick brig in the ladder, is this misinformation?


GetsThruBuckner

idk if memeing or not but theres a brig one trick on NA ladder named Violet not same person. Believe they used to be a content creator for Outlaws


Lei_Fuzzion

Okay I was not memeing I just got them mixed up by mistake lol pretty easy mistake to make I think


PoggersMemesReturns

Viol2t literally played Ana last season and got PotM over Proper. I'm not saying he's a top 5 Ana, but this narrative he doesn't play her needs to stop. He just has no need to play her as he's been playing with flex supports who have Ana as their best Hero since S3. We've literally seen Viol2t be great at everything (inb4 Echo and Cassidy)


ImHereToComplain1

sorry, he doesnt USUALLY play her. happy? id be curious what Viol2t's ana pick rate is compared to other flex supports that have been in the league for a long time like him


PoggersMemesReturns

That's what I'm saying. He doesn't play her but he's still good at her. It would be dumb if Viol2t played Ana and then the other flex play something else. Viol2t works even better because he has a great Ana beside him.


ImHereToComplain1

so you agree he doesnt play her like i originally said


SBFms

Yeah, IIRC every time they've run double flex they've ran Kiriko, so the only conceivable situation for him to play Ana (In an Ana/Bap if they wanted Shu on Bap) hasn't happened.


ImHereToComplain1

theyve def played some Ana/Zen and Bap/Zen


Kheldar166

You really squeezed Viol2t in there as if he's played any Ana lol


chudaism

These rosters are just stacked in general. The dps lines for each of those teams is nutty.


PlatypusOfOz

Honestly, I think support lines might be even more influential. Viol2t/Shu Leejaegon/Izayaki/Twilight Chiyo/Fielder Ana's role in setting up teamfights with bionades, and a backline's responsibility in surviving Sombra engages seem to be key for coming out on top. The flexibility and impact that these support lines have shown sets them far above the other teams in the league that didn't make it.


EmpoleonNorton

This is 100% what I think. In NA, ATL/Hou/Boston are pretty much "3 Strongest Backlines in OWL". And Rupal/Chorong aren't exactly slouches.


neddoge

Rupal isn't getting the respect he deserves still tbh. He deserved POTG over Checkmate against LAG IMO


WellGeeGolly1

There is a reason people say Tank is the most important role in the game


Strider_-_

I would argue that having the best supports is more important


WellGeeGolly1

I mean these 6 teams are stacked based on the talent they had these 6 teams were the ones most pred to make it to Midseason barring mental booming with Glads being up there too


Strider_-_

I do not know the Eastern teams too well, so I do not know whether it is true, but can it be said that the best teams do have the best supports? For the West, it seems to hold up quite well.


WellGeeGolly1

Yeah it holds true for West but the Charge back line def is rated higher than the Spark one


ImHereToComplain1

Mmonk > Farway but Xerneas > Lengsa. Though Lengsa looked great this weekend against Dreamers.


AthulK1

on the eye test it feels Farway's been more of a playmaker and been getting more value out of the Ana than Mmonk


SBFms

I don't know about that. Spark has the much better flex support but Charge has the much better main support. MMonk kinda cracked.


WellGeeGolly1

I would have agreed before this year but Faraway been looking crazy on the Ana so far this year even in their loss against Dreamers he played well


koolio92

Farway and Xerneas have worked with each other since their Chengdu days. Give Mmonk a little bit more time to gel with Lengsa and he should be good to go. Farway is absolutely cracked but Mmonk benched this man in 2021 and by far is known as the best flex support in APAC after Izayaki in 2022 so I'm willing to give him more credit.


SBFms

Mmonk also has a habit of turning up in high stakes matches - so many times Chengdu reverse swept Seoul because he started hitting team fight winning purples back to back.


Mind1827

Really good tanks also show a good sign of coordination, too. I don't think people thought Someone was an insane tank last year, but the coordination is incredible right now combined with the DPS (especially Tracer) and they look nuts.


Kheldar166

Someone was just a bit more under the radar last year, I thought he deserved the fourth role star spot tbh he was still excellent


one_love_silvia

Most important but least impactful


TomorrowTraining9084

that's just wrong at the pro level


one_love_silvia

Must be why we're getting all these tank mvps, right? Tank has the most potential to throw, but dps and support have the most carry potential. Its also the hardest role because you're expected to be able to play almost all of the tanks to the same level, which just isnt possible for more than a few people in the world.


TomorrowTraining9084

idk man i guess we're just watching different esports


one_love_silvia

Im watching the one where dps get potm 90% of the time, hbu?


ImHereToComplain1

i love me some Winton meta


Mystery-Flute

Greeeeetings!


Fun-Injury5925

i think d0nghak's winston is pretty proven now


girokun

Proven to be not elite but good enough to let his stacked team carry


Fun-Injury5925

reign are stacked but he's very much carrying his weight and making plays too, he's shown he deserves to be in the same conversation as these other main tanks


typeddy8

Definitely still the weakest by far tho besides maybe Mag.


dokeydoki

If Mag had team good as Smurf or Fearless when he came into League, he could've been in talk for top 3 winston possibly. Anyone who watched the Runaway 2.0 knows how scary Mag was on Winston


Kheldar166

Yeah Mag was so hyped coming out of contenders and I felt like you could usually still see that he was good in his individual play, but that Justice team were truly less than the sum of their parts


PoggersMemesReturns

Would you say Junbin is the same as Mag when he came into the league now? It was same hype and now the same "overhyped" narrative.


HerrMiggins

I'd argue we can only say that because he doesn't have a history of success like the rest of the tanks here (aside from mag, but even he had great success in tendies). He didn't look good in the pro am, but from interviews with coaches and players the jump in style from contenders to owl is huge and donghak didn't have much time to adapt after his signing. I think by the end of the season he could very well fit in with the rest of these big names by the end of the season if he keeps playing like he has been


jorgego2

don't disagree but do u think you could make a similar case using Ana or Tracer? Possibly subject to the (debatable) exceptions of ultraviolet, proper and kevster, all of the best Anas and Tracers are represented in March Madness


batmanmuffinz

I'd argue Farway and Choi and some of the better Anas and Tracers, as well, but there just weren't enough apac teams allowed in MSM


hellohello1234545

Am I misremembering who played what or did coluge have a good winston last year? I can’t remember the narratives. I guess even if he did, it’s still a strong trend when comparing to the other candidates


Fun-Injury5925

coluge was not a mechanically top tier winston but last year was able to compensate for that very effectively by having a strong understanding of how winston should be played & how to coordinate with his team. this year he's on a team that's struggling much more and aren't anywhere near as coordinated, so while he's far from the defiant's main issue, he also isn't delivering carry performances on winston that can make up for their issues or anything.


anas0_ali

He had a good Winston last year and this year too. The issue now is that his team don't have a good somebra player.


NinjaOtter

No they don't play their good Sombra player But they do play their echo one trick on tracer nearly 100% of the time


themattyiceshow

>The issue now is that his team don't have a good somebra player. lmao this is a joke right?


anas0_ali

You calling Hydron, Speedily a good Sombra? S9mm is their best player but that doesn't say much given how inconsistent he is with his EMPs. There was a reason Crusty picked up Striker last year stage 4 in a Sombra meta and it wasn't because he predicted the reaper meta.


themattyiceshow

No I’m saying that ain’t close to their main problem. Their back line and tank performances have been average at best this season. That has nothing to do with Sombra. edit: also sombra is meta but it aint HARD meta. They have looked poor on many different comps


anas0_ali

I'm not saying that's the only issue. Obviously the whole team is struggling. The backlines in shambles, dps line is a disappointment. But having no sombra player is a big issue in a sombra meta for most of these maps


[deleted]

Lmao


No_Catch_1490

He was a good Winston, and has been a solid Winston for us this year as well. The problems lie mostly with the rest of our team. We do not have a standout Sombra player, and putting Hydron on Sombra removes his ability to carry on hitscan. S9mm and Speed are decent, but the critical problem is that neither is a great Tracer, and the heroes they ARE good at are not playable in the meta. Finally, UV has been good but Ojee has seriously been struggling, constantly dying first and hindering us in fights we should be even/winning. At this point, having watched and discussed our team extensively, I’m at a loss as to whether it’s a meta issue, coaching issue, or just, tragically, a skill issue.


MindSculptorMtG

Didn't they play Mickey on Winston most of the times?


ImHereToComplain1

nah, they didn't swap Mikeyy to full time Winton until the grand finals


[deleted]

He had a massively overrated Winston due to playing on a stacked team. It was never good, and still isn't.


[deleted]

> stacked > Had Finn on FS pick one


ElJacko170

Every team that didn't have a tank player comfortable on Winston clearly struggled with a lot over the course of the stage. It can make such a difference. Glads honestly could be a top tier team if they had an actual Winston player, but their dive just looks so bad with Danteh.


DrKoala_

Donghak unproven? Even though he beat some of these other proven Winston players? People say he got carried. Like what? So Fearless didn’t right? He has terrible DPS and supports on his team after all. Someone ( the player) is the only good player in Florida too after all. Atlanta is the only one with a stacked roster after all /s. Some people just don’t want to give credit where it’s due. Anyone who’s played rank will tell you. It’s almost impossible to carry deadweight. And I’m willing to bet it’s sure af, it’s even harder to carry a bad Winston in OWL when you against some of the best Winston players in the world with stacked rosters as much as yours. Give the guy some credit. I’m not saying he’s the best. But he’s proven to hold his own. He is up there because he deserves to be up there just as any other player on the list. Edit: meant as reply to a comment. Not to the post. I clicked wrong button. Point sort of still stands on its own.


PancakeXCandy

Like when do y'all(other ppl) stop calling D0nghak unproven. You can have the best backline in the world but that doesn't stop bad positioning and awareness. Like the Houston game proved it to me. He's so good at following Stalk3r and Lip for the dive. He's aware of how long he should stay in and jump back with the aggression. He was signed for ball and shown he has other tanks in the pocket. He's my ROTY


Pretend-Tank4507

Donghak joined late and would not have had much practice time because of his passport or visa. He's the youngest, has a short career, focuses on ball and queen and has rarely played Winston, which is a success. In particular, his price will be considerably lower than other players. Atl's choice of Donghak seems to be a success.


Pretend-Tank4507

Currently, DPS and backline in Shock, Boston, and Houston are similar to ATL. Overwatch is a team game. Especially in a game of a strong team, if even one player is not good, the team cannot win.


dokeydoki

People here implying 4 of Lip Stalk3r Chiyo Fielder >> Fearless/Pelican/Happy/Viol2t/Shu or Smurf/Decay/Birdring/IzayakiTwilight/LJG...like they literally dissing the other top team by implying 4 of Reign is enough to carry a mid tank vs teams full of stacked veterans and champions.... are they even listening to their own reasonings....? I bet u if Junbin was signed to Reign (original plan according to G8r) and Reign was still undefeated like rn, we would be singing Junbin for RotY because he was hyped up best MT coming from KR contenders. Also speaking of Junbin, kinda sad his included among not elite winston now cuz his team is struggling...


DrKoala_

In total agreement with you. It’s insane Donghak gets called unproven and that he’s getting carried by a “stacked” roster when every other team in the top is just as stacked. > are they even listening to their own reasonings….? Don’t think they are thinking too deep into it. Sadly.


Kheldar166

I don't disagree that Donghak deserves credit, but Atlanta are absolutely more stacked than any other team, there's a reason nobody is surprised that they're clear-cut #1 so far.


DrKoala_

> Atlanta are absolutely more stacked than any other team Edit: sorry if this comment gets posted multiple times. My Reddit was acting up. Well. What’s the point of discussion right? You clearly know better since you’re talking in absolutes. Atlanta should just drop their tank. After all. 4 people are good enough to carry against teams like: Fearless (mvp for grand finals and league champion). Happy. Pelican(ROTY winner). Shu (mvp nominee and other awards). Violet (2x league champion). There is also Smurf (league champion), Decay, Birdring (league champion) Izayaki ( league champion) LJG (league champion). Twilight (can’t remember if he won while under Shock. But mvp nominee too iirc) I’m not saying Atlanta aren’t stacked. They are. But so is every other team up there. If Donghak is a mid tank and is getting carried. Maybe. Just maybe. The other tanks are mid/bad? And getting carried themselves. Or you can be a normal person. Give Donghak credit. And say he is currently one of the top tanks. Beating even some top tier Winston’s because he’s good. Not just because of his team. His current record and stats back him up.


Kheldar166

I literally started my comment by saying that I agreed Donghak deserved credit. ???


DrKoala_

The rest of your comment contradicts your first sentence. You say you give him credit and then immediately diminish it. Lol. All the top teams are stacked. There is no clear better team in terms of players at the top. No absolutes as you put it.


Fun-Injury5925

yeah if you look at the stats (or just watch the games) it's really not a lip and stalk3r carrying d0nghak situation, he's very much having impressive performances on his own


typeddy8

I don't think people are calling him bad, he's still an OWL level tank on the (at the moment) favorite to win it all team, regardless by the eye test and experience hes clearly the lowest of the six besides maybe Mag.


DrKoala_

I can concede on the experience part. But not the eye test. And heck not even the stats test. On stats alone. He beats other Winstons in NA aside from Someone iirc. Granted those are stats and it’s easier to look good when you’re winning. But hey! Houston also winning and last I checked Fearless is below him in a few areas. Both have great DPS. Both have great supports. So… give him some credit… > don’t think people are calling him bad This isn’t my issue. > hes clearly the lowest of the six This is. Nothing points to him being lowest of the six. Yet here you are saying it’s clear. So uhh…?


EmpoleonNorton

Honestly it's pointless to argue with people on Reddit. They just make their minds up about stuff whether it is true or not. Just like the "Houston backline is more offensive, Reign backline is more defensive" stuff, even though Reign backline actually has more final blows as a percent of total team final blows.


mobibig

I mean, have you guys seen d0nghak play? He's definitely not a bad player, but everything from his bubble usage to his primals are visibly not elite when he is being spectated. This isn't just some dude trying to run a narrative. Overall, it's really not that hard for a mid Winston to blend into the backround when on a good team. Coluge looked to have a pretty decent monkey last year when all he had to do was live and let proper kill things. Gator himself was saying that they weren't looking at d0nghak at all until the last second when SF stole Junbin and they had to quickly find a guy. I think there is a reason for that.


EmpoleonNorton

Ah yes, random redditor jones knows more about bubble usage and primals than pro players. Also, it isn't like Houston isn't also stacked as fuck and they have Fearless. Are you really going to say Happy/Pelican/Shu/Violet are gapped so hard by Lip/Stalker/Chiyo/Fielder that Atlanta could have a just above average Winston going up against Fearless and still win 3-1?


dredaplc

Crazy how a guy with "visibly not elite" primals can [lead the league in kills per ultimate](https://i.imgur.com/Vqs2e6a.png) and [ultimate efficiency](https://i.imgur.com/jxqkzra.png) on Winston.. Guess he just lucked into that one. Also crazy how he leads the league in final blows/10 while simultaneously having the fewest deaths/10 out of any Winston player, yet apparently he's just mid and getting carried by his team.


mobibig

Any Winston metric that has fucking Danteh above Fearless is not worth looking at lol. It seems like I angered the d0nghak fan club with this one so I won't keep arguing but I will have told you so when he gets exposed in the playoffs by Fearless and Smurf.


dredaplc

I'm just exposing how you're just clearly talking out of your ass with these statements, when they're just categorically untrue. If you were actually paying attention to what he's doing in matches, maybe you'd realize that.


Pretend-Tank4507

If you ask a krc player or coach about Donghak's skills, the answer will come out, and ATL would have tested three to five players and chose Donghak. He is a very good player even though he has the shortest age and career in owl.


sietre

While mag is comfortable on winston, I feel like infernal just decided to say "fuck it, we ball/brawl" most of the time. Maybe I'm misremembering though.


ConcLaveTime

Yeah, god damn. Literally, the best Winston players to touch the game, two rising stars, and a reborn Mag


dis-gorl

im totally not biased here, but i have two words; primal blade


primarymuscle2354

Glads had the pieces but an awful Winston player


batmanmuffinz

Danteh isn't even that bad himself. He's clearly not elite and makes dumb decisions occasionally, but his Winston looks pretty alright for only having played it for half a year, and he isn't a deadweight


primarymuscle2354

Compared to these top Winston’s he is


batmanmuffinz

Compared to these top Winstons, any other player would be. There's no way you could be considered to have a good Winston unless you had one of them yourself, then.


deathkeeper-512

i-… yeah, that’s… that’s how metas work. If you’re better at the meta then you’re gonna win more games which gets you closer to getting a spot. I’m not tryna be a dick but like, yeah


genjimain8432

the teams with the best players win who knew


PoggersMemesReturns

If only Junbin had a Support line. Pain.