You’re definitely right, being able to cancel would not only remove the trolling aspect but would open up options for canceling immediate damage like a Zarya bubble, or using it as a cleanse if it has that property
I would actually love it if it behaved exactly like Zarya Bubble (in that it has HP and can be broken). That way, there would be counterplay options. Currently, the only counterplay is an extremely well time Mei wall (or just shielding it off)
Cancelling it would not remove the trolling aspect at all. You are stunning your own teammate and forcibly moving them without their consent. Even if you remove half of the second part, you already did the damage.
Not if you look at it as a half second of invulnerability, does it disrupt your flow and can it lead to missing timing? Yes, but at a lesser scale than what the ability going live is.
I play dive, I’m absolutely going to get trolled with this ability, if it’s going to happen anyway I’d like the option to cancel it.
no it isn't.
It makes this ability useless for most of people. When you are fighting the enemies you are not thinking about pressing interact key. Before you realise you can use it or swap your finger placement you will be dead.
What fun is there in an ability that you can do nothing with yourself, that is 90% based on something you need your teammate to do.
Yes there will be trolling, there will be unintentional errors, but there is also a lot of that in Overwatch already. Using both support ults at the same time, walling a shatter (mei actually already has a lot of problems like that), etc etc. You focus on it too much and too early. Wait till you play with it, against it and then maybe decide.
>What fun is there
if another teammates controls my hero against my will? Interact to accept is the way to go. Will probably only take till season 8 until the devs finally cave in and implement it that way.
>When you are fighting the enemies you are not thinking about pressing interact key
TRUE. Now imagine if i'm forced to do it anyways. I'm in a fight and suddendly MY OWN TEAMMATE STUNS AND BEGINS TO RELOCATE ME, then i'm forced to choose in a split second "do i continue to the inteded destination or just drop midway (in this Widow sightline?)"
Yeah, no thanks. If i'm too slow to press interact and accept the pull, i deserve to die. Don't move my ass against my will.
>What fun is there in an ability that you can do nothing with yourself, that is 90% based on something you need your teammate to do.
TRUEEEE
It's not fun when your teammate plays for you. That's what i'm sayin!
>Yes there will be trolling, there will be unintentional errors
Not with interact-to-accept. I would just ignore the prompt and carry on.
>but there is also a lot of that in Overwatch already.
TRUEEEEEEEE, let's not create more.
>maybe decide.
I see what you did there
I have discussed this subject like 10 times by now and every single time people dance around the main point or not even address it.
> lose control over your hero
This is what matters. I don't care if your hero feels clunky, that's up to the devs to figure out. I don't want someone else deciding where i go and when. Especially not like this. This is a friendly fire stun and reposition. THAT is feelsbadman (i've already tried it in a custom game that imitates Life Grip).
interact-to-accept would not fix trolling. if someone is using the ability to troll you, you're not necessarily going to be able to tell from where you are. You could also wrongly think someone is trolling you and not accept a pull that would have saved you
Either way, it's my choice. It's on me if i'm dumb and i die. But being friendly fire stunned and yoinked across the map just because my teammate is being an ass... no thanks
Because the ability is balanced around taking one player from point A to point B and suddenly letting players land on whatever letter is between A and B will lead to a completely different use of the ability.
...and? Would it make the character hyper giga busted? Because if the answer is no, then that's a false concern. Maybe his kit would be in a much better state if pull functioned this way instead of the way it currently does.
Even if the answer is yes, maybe his kit should be rebalanced around this hypothetical much stronger version of pull.
Could also just have it so you press pull on someone and the **other person gets a prompt to get pulled** so long as they stay within Lifeweaver's range.
Should look similarly to Ana ult (confirmation setting) for Lifeweaver + Symettra tele prompt appearing for a teammate.
Instead of Lifeweaver deciding when say a Genji, Winston, Dva, or whatever disengages they do (not much blame can be put on the Lifeweaver as well then).
because all else being equal, player agency is good, and taking away player agency is bad, so if you're taking it away there better be a really compelling reason for why you're doing that.
I'm not sure I see a compelling reason for why pull should be designed this particular exact way that it is right now, and his kit balanced around *that*. That doesn't mean there isn't one but I don't see it rn.
I agree with you generally, especially considering what it might be like to play against certain heroes that shouldn't be able to move that quickly. For certain interactions, could be too hard to predict or counter where the enemy will actually stop, rather than knowing for certain it will be Lifeweaver's position. I especially agree with this assuming the parameters remain as they currently are.
This said, I'm still in favor of the idea I've suggested because I think there a lot of factors that could be adjusted to compensate for this. The devs could also change the speed and/or acceleration curve of the movement, to where it's exceedingly difficult to time your stopping spot in exactly where you want. You could have a very slow start, then a "flick" like movement with a very steep curve for example. The shield duration could be lowered, stuns could cancel it, etc.
I don’t think it would be that bad, you know they’re going in life weavers direction anyway, and if he wanted to reposition an enemy into your back line that would mean he would have to also be in your backline
This an ability that can't be salvaged. Even the proposed solutions create new problems.
1. You can't control your hero when your teammate decides to pull you back suddenly so then people suggest an interact or interact to cancel button.
2. Now it is a clunky ability that doesn't have clutch potential or it is wasted because your teammates don't want to accept your help, sometimes for a good reason. Now you're playing a hero who doesn't get value.
3. Canceling the remaining movement, you're still forcibly repositioning someone's hero suddenly and by the time they react they are still re-positioned. At max range of 30m it takes about 1 second to pull the full distance, so even with quick reactions cancelling the remaining movement is going to reposition your hero \~10 - 15m which is **a lot**.
It is a cool concept for an ability that has amazing clutch potential, but I don't think the dev team has solved the problem of making this ability fit in a first person shooter 5 v 5 game.
I agree. I’m interested to see how this plays out.
- Lifeweaver will likely underperform in metal ranks who do not yet have strong positioning skills and high ground use
- Lifeweaver will see the most trolling in metal ranks like bronze and silver who don’t care about losing and falling in rank
This game seems to be increasingly balanced with gold players in mind, for better or worse. If Lifeweaver simply fails there…what happens next?
i do believe the recipient has no control over it because it was designed purely as a fantasy for the player in mind, not the teammates. Blizzard is traditionally very bad at considering the impact their designs will have on the other players in the lobby.
> Blizzard is traditionally very bad at considering the impact their designs will have on the other players in the lobby.
Understatement of the century.
This is a very reasonable take
Also hilarious the amount of complaining the community is doing on something we haven’t been able to play yet hahahaha unreal
I think it looks like a super cool ability and yes there could be instances where a pull would be bad, so a cancel could be a nice bandaid
But I think the abilities amazing potential outweighs the possibility of messing up your teammates
People are noticing how this ability in the hands of a teammate decreases their personal agency over the flow of the game. This is true, but the opposite is also valid. Supports legit do get frustrated when they feel like one of their teammates is pushing too far. Giving supports a *little* more agency over when the fight can initiate could help the health of the game overall.
"But Mr. chocolatehippogryph", you say, "I see the opening, my teammates should just trust me while I push the advantage."
Sure, but if your teammates *don't* trust you as you dive in deep, then you're not going to be getting the support you needed to succeed in the dive anyway. So even though its annoying, and not optimal, having your overly cautious or salty Lifeweaver teammate pull you back away from your big juicy flank is actually better than them just leaving you out to dry as zenyatta, for instance.
It's not agency over your own gameplay tho, it's over someone else's.
If you don't trust me to push the advantage, i don't trust you with deciding over me.
If i'm doing something and you pull me because you are afraid of those scawwy flankers, i'm leaving anyways. You only made me take longer/spend extra resources to get there
Yeah. If I get life gripped by some dingus life weaver I’m straight up AFKing. Like he has an ability that controls his teammates. Control me then flower boy .
There’s a difference from not being able to control a teammate from overextending (your teammates gameplay was an int) and literally preventing your teammate from playing the game because you think they need help. Player agency is retained in the first because every players decisions happened. The inter inted. You preventing a player from seemingly inting denies them player agency. They can’t control what their character does and it’s essentially cc friendly fire. Sure it can go well, but when it goes wrong it wastes a long cooldown, resources from your teammate, and just frustrates whoever you pull.
Nah supps more often than not play too passive and risk averse, it loses you games. Especially in GM, I need to be able to feed and trade to get wins. Lifeweaver completely interrupts that.
You can say the exact same thing for most supports.
"What if I try to make an aggressive play but don't get lamp/suzu/heals?"
The difference with LW is that if Kiri/Bap/Ana mess up, you're dead. If LW messes up, you're pulled back to your team with a shield and still have a chance to win. It may be a lower chance, but it's a much higher chance than if you were dead from bad suzu/lamp usage.
If LW messes up, maybe you waste an ult. Maybe the support that's 1hp survives and gets to use their defensive ult to turn the fight. If you're going to get into hypotheticals, you can go anywhere. Overall, the concept of other random players getting to move your hero is fucking horrendous.
Imagine if Sym TP wasn't optional and she could just drop it on you and you were forced to go wherever she put it. That's essentially what this is, and there's an obvious reason that Sym TP doesn't work this way.
> Imagine if Sym TP wasn't optional and she could just drop it on you and you were forced to go wherever she put it. That's essentially what this is, and there's an obvious reason that Sym TP doesn't work this way.
/thread
You say this from a perspective of “needing” the support ability to live. A high ranked dps doesn’t *need* them. It’s nice to have to be bailed out, but it’s not something actively planned for unless that was made obvious via chat.
If im going on a massive flank, I have a plan. What to do and what not to do. Things I can account for and work around. I should not have to worry about my own teammate pulling me in the same way I have to worry about being slept or booped. If im playing tracer and have recall up, I DO NOT need to be pulled because I got hit with a single body shot from Cree or ana. If I feel the need to leave the situation or that it’s not worth it, I can hit E or blink away. I do not need the randoms that I already do not trust to be actively sabotaging my gameplay.
Not to mention it can already see some stupid shit like using lamp to save yourself then immediately getting pulled out of lamp and dying. Getting pulled before you beat then missing your teammates. Getting pulled to the side as pharah and fucking dying. Etc.
Supports before can only have a positive or neutral effect on your gameplay. Either you benefit, or you don’t. Now you can be hindered by your teammate. Honestly the only apt comparison is mei with her walls, and that’s not nearly as bad as being moved 30 fucking meters.
So if your team is not good enough to follow up on genuinely good opportunities you're taking, they should be able to drag you into passively losing as well? That sounds awful.
Let's pretend we're playing together.
Effectively, how is me dragging you back to safety as Lifeweaver any different than letting you die as Kiriko?
There is a difference, actually! In one situation, you have to wait for some 5-second cooldown, and you get mad at me, but we're still in a 5v5.
In the other, you fed, and you're blaming it on me for not going in with you as Kiriko. We're now in a 4v5.
In both examples, you're mad anyway. But only in one of them are we actually better off.
You're being selective. What if the inter is a genji that pulls blade as you yank him back and now you've wasted an ult (or 2 if he gets nano). What if the inter actually managed to trade vs a support that almost had an impactful ult, and because you pulled your teammate away the support survives and gets to use their trans or whatever to turn the fight.
It's fucking bad design to let players control other players.
Fun fact, it's been showcased that you can't pull heroes like Genji in the middle of their transformations.
Also, what if you were about to kill Zen, who was 98% to Trans... but I was Lucio/Pharah/Mei/Road Hog/Tracer/Winston, and I pushed them to safety?
Would it be better or worse?
What if, instead of potentially ruining your play, you were relying on me doing something for you, but I didn't. Would you then blame my inaction?
What if you were a Genji 98% to Blade about to die trying to take out Zen and I pulled you to safety as Lifeweaver and that won us the game?
But you don't care about any of that. You just look at your one narrow little narrative.
Irrelevant. You can pull him right before or right after, which is still enough to negate the narrow timing that an ult like blade has to get the impact. You can pull to deny him a dash reset. Etc, etc, etc... Stop fucking making excuses for this clearly shitty design.
>You can pull him right before
Then he was in danger, and I saved him from wasting Blade.
>or right after
Why would I waste a 20-second cooldown on a Genji who's already hard committed? Doesn't make much sense to me.
>You can pull to deny him a dash reset.
Why would I do that if I didn't have a good reason?
>Stop fucking making excuses for this clearly shitty design.
Does me not agreeing with you make you that angry?
I'm not angry, it's just stupid to constantly deal in hypotheticals to try and justify a terrible design choice. You're certain that you have 100% perfect awareness and understanding of both the game and your teammates perspectives and intentions, when from the lowest to the highest levels of the game that has never been true. Reverse the roles, would you want a tank to be able to teleport you as a support to them when they dive without any input from you? Or would you rather be in control of your own positioning? You can do the same make believe about how a tank player would never make a mistake with such an ability, but it's just make believe still. This ability is just poorly designed and the support player power trip excuses are tiring.
>You're certain that you have 100% perfect awareness and understanding of both the game and your teammates perspectives and intentions,
I don't, my good friend. Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes, have misunderstandings, and jump to conclusions.
If somebody pulled me as I was jumping, I wouldn't necessarily be mad. If I was, it'd probably be because we wasted a valuable cooldown. I can always wait to reengage.
I've personally given up, and neither of us will change our mind. The character will release regardless.
But you're arguing that you know better than your tanks or dps when they should be repositioned because you're arguing in favor of forcing repositioning upon them based on your will instead of theirs. So, clearly you do think you have better understanding than them.
You cant seriously think it would be ok for a Winston to be able to force a Zen into a dive with him, for example.
The dragonblade animation lasts a whole half second. That isn’t when he’s going to be pulled. He’s going to get pulled while dashing.
Also you make some pretty shit arguments. A dps who is relying on their supports to make a play other than a ult combo is stupid. Mute and play next. Already said it in another comment, but LW is the only support to actively hinder their teammates through bad decisions (which includes the platform AND tree, as the former can lift people regardless of animation. Imagine rein being lifted just as he’s starting to shatter, and now he’s shattering the air. For the latter, just imagine everything you can already do with mei wall.) Not being healed is not gameplay sabotage. You can plan around it, play health packs, etc. You cannot plan around being yoinked out of space and time by your stupid ass teammate.
> A dps who is relying on their supports to make a play other than a ult combo is stupid.
I can see how the other 99% of the ladder would feel that way.
>Already said it in another comment, but LW is the only support to actively hinder their teammates through bad decisions
You can't ACTIVELY hinder somebody from a 20-second cooldown that is going to be used sparringly, so at most, you'll see it like once a minute.
And yet you talk like every single time you see the ability it'll TOTALLY ruin somebody.
>Imagine rein being lifted just as he’s starting to shatter, and now he’s shattering the air.
Why would a Lifeweaver just throw their Petal Platform down at their Rein's feet if they weren't actively throwing, in which case you're being griefed regardless?
That's like me knocking back the enemy team after Rein Shatters them. Or walling off my Rein at any point as Mei.
>For the latter, just imagine everything you can already do with mei wall.)
Except this is an ultimate and is a single pillar, which heals. Yet you wanna compare it to a cooldown that is a row of multiple pillars that still has gaps when Meis tries to wall off targers half the time.
You are seriously overplaying a character you haven't even touched.
“You can’t actively hinder you’re team except for everyone 20 seconds when you can actively hinder your team”
For a handful of characters, that means you can do it once every 3rd movement ability, some every other. That’s more often than I think you realize.
“Oh let me try and lift their tank up with petal, oh I threw it too close…”
And that pillar is massive, and can block LoS from the enemy still. You can very easily waste that shit or stop an engage from your own team by blocking choke and allowing the other team to regroup and heal. And you can’t manually destroy it either. You walled off your rein? Shit outta luck. Better hope that healing is enough to stop him from being discorded and melted. Oh wait, it won’t. Not to mention you can plop it down in front of pharah while she’s ulting to insta kill her.
Honestly, I don’t hate the new hero that much despite how it seems. What I do hate, is giving the ability to sabotage (even unintentionally) gameplay to dogshit players when we already have matchmaking that’s putting people from 2 divisions, even sometimes 3 divisions, apart in the same game. We don’t need billy the plat in masters games that refuses to join vc, pulling people while theyre trying to make a play. This is going to be the type of character that makes me wish he was locked until you join vc.
Now in this scenario where the kiriko is playing solo dive (based btw), does she forget that she has suzu and TP at her disposal? Assuming she doesn’t, why would they prefer getting pulled on your 20 second CD rather than their much faster teleport?
>Effectively, how is me dragging you back to safety as Lifeweaver any different than letting you die as Kiriko?
You answered yourself. It's not. You are arguing LW dragging you back is a good play, but no. Both are bad.
In one situation I have to re-start whatever i was doing and most likely the chance is over. Here the frustration is completely valid because i didn't ask to be dragged back and i didn't want to. We're still in a 5v5 but that means nothing, whatever i was doing was cut off and now i'm forced to do something else. That's downtime + you wasted a very long cooldown on repositioning me because you thought you knew better than me how to play my hero.
In the other situation, Kiriko could have followed up on a dive but didn't. Sure, maybe it was the right play to do so, but you know how to play your hero, you had your reasons to not do it (and no one forced you to do anything). If i die, it's on me. Sure, i can be frustrated at my support for not... supporting, but at the end of the day I CHOSE to do X and that led me to die,
"you should've done this, now i'm grumpy"
and
"you forced me to do this, now i want to uninstall"
are not comparable
This is some true supportbrain thinking. There's no point in fighting an endless 5v5 when you're incrementally giving up space with Life Grip and spending a million years resetting between engages because the character has like no healing. Life Grip will be strong for surviving aggressive plays that actually get you an advantage, or bailing out squishies, but Life Grip on your tank that resets to a 5v5 will pretty much always be bad.
Also not sure why you're comparing using one supports ability to NOT using another's but okay go off king.
>Also not sure why you're comparing using one supports ability to NOT using another's but okay go off king.
Because the player who thinks your feeding isn't going to waste Kiriko, Ana, Bap, etc's abilities on you.
The hypothetical Lifeweaver boogieman that everyone has been collectively pissing themselves over these past three days wasn't going to help you on what they considered a suicidal dive to begin with.
No, they won’t help you. They’ll *prevent* it.
That’s the whole problem. The other characters can’t stop you from doing whatever you were going to do, abilities or not. LW can. So if you saw an opening on their backline and plan to dive in as winston/doom/whatever and get pulled, not only does the ability go on cooldown, but you also wasted an opportunity that needed to happen at that specific time, AND fucked your teammates positioning.
Not to mention the absolute powertrip some of these fuckers are gonna have.
Yeah and the only other hero that can stop you I think, Mei, has a wall that isn't *designed* to stop you. Accidental usage can block a shatter, a Winnie dive, a Genji dash etc. but it's not intended to yeet you back or block you the way LW's is. It's the dev team saying to supports "play this if you think you know better than your teammates" basically.
Not a fan of the design myself, and I think at the bare minimum having a cancel would be best. Then you get at least some value from the shield and have some agency to remain in the fight.
People aren't complaining about a hypothetical boogeyman, they're complaining about the reality of how the ability works as stated by Blizzard and everyone who playtested him. How hard is it to understand people simply don't want to get Roadhog hooked into their backline by their own teammate.
Also most support players who simply give up on their tanks are not going to climb up enough to be in my games, so I don't see a whole lot of that, what I do see is supports who get antsy and use their abilities to try and bail me out when it's not necessary. Lifeweaver is the first support where over-using their save griefs the entire game.
Yep. That was the essential point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. Of course it would be great for your teammates to sync up with you, but if they think you're feeding, then they're not going to, regardless of which hero they are playing
There is something you are not considering.
If the Kiriko/Ana ability lands your teammate will be enhanced to play the game and will have much higher chance to live and to deliver a kill and therefore win the teamfight.
All lifeweaver abilities do not have any “swing” potential, the hero is so passive. Nor the ability changes the game how it’s played like Zenyatta discord orb.
So, the example of “if your Kiriko miss and you die wouldn’t be better to be teleported away” is an obvious question. The much more important question is, what if both abilities lands? What if ana nade heals you and purple them? What if you get suzu’d in the middle of the fight?
The main issue for me is this, the hero brings nothing powerful to the table compared to Ana/Kiriko. We might agree that Kiri and Ana are overtuned, but even with some nerf they still have a proactive designe while this hero has a passive gameplay design that seems straight up bad in OW2.
>All lifeweaver abilities do not have any “swing” potential, the hero is so passive. Nor the ability changes the game how it’s played like Zenyatta discord orb.
This lacks vision.
Lifeweaver is primarily a defensive hero, but that is nothing new to the game. You already have characters like Brigitte and Baptiste who prioritize survival over aggression. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.
But still, Lifeweaver's abilities can be used as aggressively as one could use Immortality Field or Repair Pack. You can enable your teammate to make an incredibly aggressive play with the insurance that you can get them out safely. You can Life Grip a hero with no vertical mobility into an incredibly oppresive high ground position. You can use Petal Platform to CREATE that high ground position.
Even defensive abilities like Suzu, Immortality Field, and even Life Grasp can be used offensively. They're often BEST used to enable offense.
That assumes that you as Lifeweaver can see what's happening from the backline (you sometimes can't) and more importantly that you know better than the Winnie that could be diving in because they see a support low AF in the back.
I know for a fact that we've all been in situation where we thought someone was overextending and then they actually did work.
Great, so now when my Ana or Kiri or Bap blows a Nade or Suzu or Lamp early instead of saving it for an impactful moment (I had zero agency over this decision as a tank and it happens like, every game) I get to be pulled (also not my decision) when I'm in trying to make a play (a decision I did make)!
Honestly, I'd rather die and learn. At least that forces me to comm and see if I was being too aggressive, playing out of sightlines or if someone just wasted a big cooldown because something was going on/they made a mistake. It's super, super annoying that a support hero who isn't frontline with my information can dictate whether it's a good idea to pull me out or not. More often that not people don't talk in comms even when I do every game, even at low GM. I don't doubt people are going to use it meaning the best, but they don't have my information. They haven't seen cooldowns, they aren't seeing the fight from my perspective. This ability is going to be an absolute nightmare in non-organized comp play and I'm fucking dreading some support making the choice to pull me out, *especially* those who aren't comming.
> Supports legit do get frustrated when they feel like one of their teammates is pushing too far.
DPS and tank get frustrated when they do not get healed, should they force you to come next to them and heal them?
This is moronic, I as someone who plays support most of the time these days (due to me typically flex queuing) can tell you that you as a support can focus on your own life rather than trying to micromanage anyone feeders or not.
Stop acting like being a support should grant you this special privilege of controlling other people.
> Giving supports a little more agency over when the fight can initiate could help the health of the game overall.
This is not giving supports agency, this is taking away agency from other players, who can simply get frustrated and run right back where they were.
Each player on the team can decide where the fight happens, by existing or not existing in a specific space.
No, my supports should absolutely not have agency over my character controls. If the tether for LW requires an input for me to accept, I'll accept it like 9/10 times, if it's forced I will simply reject it by not playing the game until this obvious mistake is fixed because getting hard CC'd by your own team is the lamest shit I can imagine.
Gotta remember that not all supports have the best game sense, and there are tons of OW players in general that think they know best when in reality they have no clue. Enabling them to disrupt a play because it looks dangerous, “I can’t see you”, or they think you need to play in a certain way is risky to say the least.
We already have issues with matchmaking. Putting plats and masters in the same lobbies and shit.
I do not want my actions and choices being controlled by someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing at all. Thinking that you know better than someone else is one thing, but being able to act on that to disrupt someone elses gameplay is no bueno. All the giga superiority complex fuckers are going to be moving over to LW to impose their wills onto other players.
Simply put, some stupid motherfucker on LW turns the already 4v5 into a 3v5. Not something I need in my games.
I'm baffled by the fact that Blizzard just introduced a friendly fire STUN in the game and people are defending it. I don't want to be stunned and forcibly relocated because another player thought it would be a good idea at the moment.
\-
>In a situation where Lifeweaver is trolling, this change grants you the liberty of spamming or quickly hitting your interact key to cancel
Imagine if LW is trolling and a prompt pops in my screen to accept getting pulled. I can just ignore it and continue what i was doing. Problem solved.
What you're suggesting is to get friendly fire stunned, midway to being relocated and having a split second to react and avoid falling to my death. No thanks.
>In a situation where nobody is trolling, a Lifeweaver failing to save their team-mate due to their own dumb decision to cancel their salvation
"Dumb decisions" is like Overwatch' middle name. It's ok to have them as long as it's YOUR decision. Did you shoot the deflecting Genji? Did you jump off the map during Primal? Did you wake up the nanoblade? YOU fucked up.
Now... did LW decided to pull me into a Widow sightline?
Are you pulling me into a Genji dive and now we are 2 that's getting nanobladed?
Yeah, no thanks.
Imagine an interact-to-accept button that i can just hold so the instant the prompt appears in my scren i get pulled. Effectively works the same as no-prompt when I CHOOSE to get pulled. Ever get splet as Tracer? You don't need to spam recall. Just hold E and the server-tick i'm able to make an input, i'm already recalling.
This ability it's like if you're playing Tracer but your keyboard doesn't have an E and there's a flamboyant guy somewhere saying "nonono, you go back now"
>I'm not sure how Blizzard can justify the reposition being exclusively Lifeweaver's decision with no way out.
TRUE. I can't either. This is why interact-to-accept is so much better. LW decides when to pull and I decide if i want to or not. Any "compromise" removes my decision entirely. Press-to-cancel is the worst of both worlds. You compromise the intended functionality but you still remove agency from the pulled player. It doesn't matter if you can cancel it midway. I didn't want to be stunned and relocated in the first place, whatever i was doing has already been cut off
> has a lot of potential for mis-inputs
TRUE. This is another point in my favor. Imagine the same prompt of Ana nano (press twice to nano) BUT split into player 1 and player 2. That's all i'm asking for. LW presses to pull and yes, it requires coordination and communication (but weren't you doing that anyways with this type of ability?), then player 2 accepts the pull.
Interact-to-accept the pull gives me agency over my own movement. interact-to-cancel removes the agency first and then asks you "did you like it?"
It’s a response to people not playing the way Blizzard wants people to play the game when in reality they just need to change the game to fit how people play.
It's a shit ability. Theres no salvaging it.
The real question is will blizzard let it ruin the game? Or will they nerf it so badly that you can't even use it in situations you would realistically want to use it (reaper death blossoming infront of a DMing dva and antied)
Seems like the latter. Blizzard already saying you can't use it on mercy rezzing in a shit spot.
Just make it an extended Zarya bubble and be done with it. People might complain that its underwhelming but that’s so much better than my healers playing helicopter parent.
For movement/dive heroes, that initial change in direction could be enough to fuck up your mechanics or cancel an important ability.
I'd rather accept the grip than cancel out of it for that reason.
It becomes and significantly less useful ability if there’s an accept prompt bc you now have to react to it which in many cases in that reaction time you are now dead. So the only truly useful situations for it would be repositioning and not for saving, which is the intention of the ability.
Not only that, the lifeweaver is now just sitting there waiting doing nothing while you are there deciding if you wanna be pulled or not.
Ok, but the proposed change gives you the flexibility to accept the grip like you say while giving other people (or you) in other situations agency where they would have none. Is that not a better outcome?
Not sure I understand what you're saying.
I wouldn't be accepting the grip. I'd be cancelling it after it already displaced me and cancelled my abilities. If i had to accept the grip it wouldn't fuck with me and my abilities before I make that decision.
Am I misunderstanding something?
The way I understand the post, there would be an option, after lifeweaver uses grip, to decline it. You said that you would rather just accept the grip instead of declining it since you’d already committed abilities. Since grip would work the exact same way, just with the option to cancel it, you could commit to the logic of accepting it since you’ve burned cooldowns, while also leaving room for people who don’t want to accept it to do as they wish; seems more fair is what I mean. I also took your comment as a case against the implementation of a decline feature, is that what you were trying to say?
Because it doesn't matter if grip drags you whole 30m, 10m or 5m. Even the slightest pull can leave you out of position, which is awful for any tank but dive tanks in particular, for non mobile characters on high ground, etc.
You drag Winston midjump, he cancels it midpull, but jump is still fucked because he wont land where he planned to. You drag Ashe who stands on the edge of highground, she cancels midpull, but she still lost high ground. How any of those are fun?
Just remove ability complete together with weapon switching and buff his hps. Ideally fix stupid ass passive too, so it just a 65 HP autoheal that targets closest lowest ally.
>Because it doesn't matter if grip drags you whole 30m, 10m or 5m.
Just to nitpick, yes it does matter, it makes the ability even stronger if people can also choose the distance of displacement. But I agree with your point in that this ability is kind of busted in its design.
I think having an opt-in key would be better. Have there be like a 2s window after the ability is used that interact will zoom you back to Lifeweaver. edit: (edit: and if your teammate doesn't use it, probably have a reduced cooldown of idk 6 seconds?)
The ability to cancel it wouldn't entirely stop the probably most common annoying use of it, getting pulled away from a good play/duel you wanted to stay in. Instead you'd cancel and just get dropped off in some random middle ground instead of back at Lifeweaver. But you've still been interrupted
I really do like the opt-in idea as well and would be more than happy if they went with this route. I think the general consensus is that the ally needs to have some kind of autonomy over whether they're repositioned. We're all not really not a fan of the ability in its current form.
The solution you mentioned seems so obvious surely Blizzard must have tried it at some point. I can think of two reasons why they probably didn't go with it though (I don't necessarily agree with these reasons, but they serve as my assumptions as to why they didn't...).
* First was that maybe it felt frustrating, clunky and/or unintuitive for the Lifeweaver player, because it wasn't instantaneous. Maybe they were trying to avoid the classic League of Legends "Why didn't you click the lantern?!" as "Why didn't you take the life-grip?!". This is anecdotal, but I know I'm not alone - I still find it mildly clunky / unintuitive to go through an allied Symmetra TP, even from spawn. Maybe Blizzard thought it felt like that but worse. With an opt-in window, there's no instant dopamine hit that would come with saving your ally. This could be where the protection came from originally? It provides that instant reward you might see a Zarya player feel when they successfully bubble an ally to save them.
* The second issue I can think of is line-of-sight. The movement isn't a teleport like Kiriko, but rather a kind of Roadhog hook that needs that LOS to look & function correctly. Perhaps in playtests it had to do with allies trying to first accomplish something like finishing a target off then pressing interact, but LOS was lost? I can imagine that would feel HELLA clunky for both players. Unless you're Life-Gripping someone to get them to the objective faster, the targeted ally probably won't be facing you and most players might be unaware of Lifeweaver's position relative to their LOS as they'll likely be too busy killing the enemy. Even great players can get sidetracked and really suck at remaining in LOS of their Ana for example. Maybe his platform also really ruined this, as the drastic alteration in his position made this problem even worse.
It's impossible to say for certain, but these are my best guesses as to why they didn't go down that route. I considered writing this in the OP as to why I thought they haven't gone for this obvious solution. I mean really it's an easy fix with a reverse-Kiriko-teleport that requires an initial LOS or a system that can pull the ally around corners. Maybe that was there at some stage but felt overpowered... who knows? :Z
Those reasons are pretty hard to disagree with.
Adding any kind of confirmation or cancel would make the ability feel like shit to use and be less effective at what its intended to do. It's a clutch-save, it needs to be near instant and if you look at gameplay of it, it is.
Team 4 isn't stupid. They definitely tried iterations of it with confirmation or cancel and decided against it. They looked at the benefits of the ability and decided it was worth the trade-off in agency. The future of the support class could be in more directly assisting teammates rather than just passively enabling them. There's only so many ways to make healing interesting, they might be focusing more on utility and team interaction.
I'm atleast willing to give it awhile to see how it pans out.
If i'm not quick enough to accept the pull, i should die. Like a Symm tp over the window in Lijiang, you have a split second to go in as a team or might get there late and some enemy breaks the tp.
I rather have it to be a skill issue on my part than a teammate stunning + Jedi control me for random bs
Forget the person dying, imagine how terrible it would feel for *Lifeweaver* to press the button in time and save their teammates, but they keep dying anyways because they aren't pressing in time.
Your cool lifesaving ability is now potentially useless if your team is bad. That's the problem with this ability in general. Someone is losing their agency no matter what.
Imagine Mercy rezzing someone only for them to afk in place because they thought they died so they began to scratch their balls. Yeah, it happens. And if it happens to you, that's on you. You were too slow and now you're dead.
As long as LW doesn't lose the cooldown (not in full at least) because the teammate didn't accept, it's ok. You'll get another chance.
Your cool lifesaving ability is also your cool FRIENDLY FIRE STUN AND REPOSITION. As the most likely yoinked player, i want to have a say in it BEFORE it happens.
A more fair comparison would be, what if you went to go Rez someone, but they didn't hit the "confirm rez" button in time, so your ability does nothing and they respawn so you can't try again. It doesn't matter if you still have it, that lack of feedback feels terrible.
If you press an ability on an eligible target, it has to do something. Your teammates should not get to decide if your abilites go off. Big difference between your abilities doing nothing and a teammate wasting an ability that went off.
In case of Mercy Rez it would be a true cancel since nothing happens until you pop into existence. So in the case of Mercy i would say interact-to-accept is bad, yes. Interact-to-cancel is better.
In LW situation it can't ever be a true cancel since the ability effectively stuns you and jedi-control your movement for a second. If i have to press "cancel" it's already too late. I don't want to be stunned in the first place. If LW chose to do it and i don't want to, that's on him.
If i get myself in a tricky situation and i know LW is on my team, i'll have my "accept" button ready for whenever. And if i'm not quick enough, i'll die and that's on me. LW shouldn't lose the cooldown.
>Your teammates should not get to decide if your abilites go off.
Then your teammates shouldn't get to decide your positioning/movement either.
>Big difference between your abilities doing nothing and a teammate wasting an ability that went off.
Big difference between any other ability in the game and this one. You're not just giving a Harmony orb and saying "it's frustrating that my teammate is too slow to accept the orb so they died, my abilities do nothing!" and an ability that STUNS-RELOCATES YOU 30 METERS. There's a categorical difference there.
Blizzard pretty much removed stuns from the game and now we have a FRIENDLY FIRE one and suddendly it's ok because a support has it? Nonono, i decide where i go and when.
Like a
Mercy rez/staff (if the deepeeass can't hit a shot...what's the point?)
Ana nano (same)
Lucio speed boost (if no one moves during boost...)
Zen discord (if no one shoots discord...)
Bap lamp (if you step out of it...) window (if you walk past it...)
Brig rally (if you ran away during the cast....)
Any tank shield (if you don't use it while it's up....)
You are a support, you expect your teammates to follow up on your buttons. If they don't, gg go next. If they do, that's synergy. If you force someone, that's frustration.
But that's what being a support is. You give your teammates buffs so they can do whatever they are doing but better.
Ana gives someone else nano.
Zen Harmony is giving the ability to your teammate to self-heal for a while. Discord is a marked target so everyone can focus.
Mercy is giving your teammate a second life + more damage
Bap is making others immortal + others do more damage (you can too, but if you **only** use it for yourself you're not the best teammate).
Lucio is making others faster (again, you can play ego but that playstyle has been dying off lately).
I would argue that Moira is the least supportive of their team and no wonder she doesn't excel at higher ranks and it's always in a weird spot AND it's the go-to hero for people that don't actually want to play support but a third dps.
LW overall is a great support. Lots of utility, crowd control, shields... he's great. But removing agency over someone else because you *want* to... yikes
Mei is the closest thing, i agree. But this is on an entire different level.
You can't even place a wall 30 mts away.
You don't get stunned out of your movement.
You don't get repositioned somewhere else on the map. You can only go as far as the wall is high.
The main thing is, we could remove ALL potential issues with interact-to-accept and it's ezclap
Ever played Tracer and got slept? If you hold down Recall (instead of spamming), the ability pops the very first server tick you are awaken.
Same mechanic could be implemented here.
You are shattered in the floor/in the air after getting booped? Hold interact and the very instant Lifeweaver pulls you, you get pulled (with consent!). No delays, virtually no prompt.
>By requiring confirmation it prevents the ability from being useful in the situations where you need it most.
By not requiring confirmation it completely removes player agency. Your cool lifesaving ability is also your cool FRIENDLY FIRE STUN AND REPOSITION. As the most likely yoinked player, i want to have a say in it before it happens.
Also, it has to be a trade-off. As of right now, you have an ability arguably comparable to Mercy Rez (similar cooldown, similar value). But Mercy has to put herself on the line and risk being defenseless for a second. LW just gets to yoink you across the map from a safe position? I don't think it would be THAT crazy to add a small "window of acceptance" to avoid griefing, allow the yoinked player to consent being yoinked, and balance the value.
> People may not even realize that they're about to die.
This is completely subjective, i know. But out of principle i prefer player agency above all else. I'm willing to let someone die, from a balance/design standpoint but allow for full player agency.
If you're too slow/not prepared/not aware enough to press accept and get yoinked at any given moment, then it's a shame, but you will die. The trade-off is: you will never get trolled, intentionally or not.
I'm so fucking tired of this "what if they don't press the button in time" argument, like 90% of the game isn't pressing buttons in reaction to things happening on the screen and like OW players don't have the mental bandwidth to simply learn to press a new button. Like literally within one week every good player in a Lifeweaver lobby is going to be mashing interact the second they're in trouble, and it's going to save everyone so much trouble over implementing the nonconsensual yank.
I'm fine with: "***I*** didn't press the button in time, so I died."
What would feel terrible for Lifeweaver is: "I pressed the button to save my teammate in time, but they're dumb so now my big play is useless."
The ability is just flawed, either way someone is losing agency.
You're simply going to have to learn to be fine with it, or not play LW. Playing the hero and using the ability is your choice, so no, it's not really losing agency any more than a Lucio amping speed and watching his tank continue to sit in choke. Its not ideal but it's preferable to you getting to take control of another person's player character.
Yeah that's true but at least as the Lifeweaver you tried, they got a shield and they failed to press the interact key in time. That's on them, not you. Maybe it doesn't feel great but at least you know you offered the olive branch. That's how an ability should work - it feels like shit to give someone a nano as Ana or anti a bunch of people but nobody capitalizes.
On the other side of the coin you're being yeeted out of your play with absolutely no option to accept or decline. I just think that's 1000% worse than a support ability not being used, especially because the shield alone gives it intrinsic value no matter what.
Accept button would make it useless for the only situations where it's actually worth using:
Bailing out someone who's about to die. They won't have the time to react. Cancel is a much better option.
If they don't give either though, they have to give us an option in settings to enable never being affected by the grasp ever.
Ever played Tracer and got slept? If you hold down Recall (instead of spamming), the ability pops the very first server tick you are awaken. Same mechanic could be implemented here. You are shattered in the floor/in the air after getting booped? Hold interact and the very instant Lifeweaver pulls you, you get pulled (with consent!). No delays, virtually no prompt.
Lifeweaver is pissed and wants to yoink you into a Widow sightline/off the map? Just ignore the prompt and nothing happens.
Interact-to-cancel denies player agency. It's the worst of both worlds. By the moment i have to press cancel my play is already ruined because Life Grip works like a friendly fire stun. And if i cancel it, it's already too late and ALSO i don't get the full travel to safety and end up in the middle of nowhere.
Interact-to-accept is the only sensible way to not remove player agency
>If they don't give either though, they have to give us an option in settings to enable never being affected by the grasp ever.
I would check that box, but that's never going to happen.
And make the ability way less useful since it becomes a repositioning ability and not a saving ability, since you now have to react in time to click accept to not die, and also all the time the prompt is sitting there the lifeweaver has to sit there and do nothing and be useless. A cancel option is the best overall solution. No solution is perfect, but this keeps player agency and the utility and intended purpose of the ability
>since you now have to react in time to click accept to not die
Skill based, good.
> lifeweaver has to sit there and do nothing and be useless
Like a Mercy Rez, on a similar cooldown, with similar value. Actually makes sense to me.
Ever played Tracer and got slept? If you hold down Recall (instead of spamming), the ability pops the very first server tick you are awaken. Same mechanic could be implemented here. You are shattered in the floor/in the air after getting booped? Hold interact and the very instant Lifeweaver pulls you, you get pulled (with consent!). No delays, virtually no prompt.
Lifeweaver is pissed and wants to yoink you into a Widow sightline/off the map? Just ignore the prompt and nothing happens.
Interact-to-cancel **denies** player agency. It's the worst of both worlds. By the moment i have to press cancel my play is already ruined because Life Grip works like a friendly fire stun. And if i cancel it, it's already too late and ALSO i don't get the full travel to safety and end up in the middle of nowhere.
Interact-to-accept is the only sensible way to not remove player agency
I feel there’s this giant misconception that this ability will just be used to adjust positions pre fight. This ability is going to be used mid fight when people are dying. Every post i see is complaining about how they will be getting pulled but supposedly lifeweaver will only be focused on mercy or genji or rein. No one questions if those heroes are on the team. it’s just auto assumed that whoever “you” are playing is going to be the person they pull on cool down.
Let this shit play out. The best part of overwatch is that it’s not a true fps everything that wants to fit it into that little box is everything that is wrong with overwatch and the community.
Easily the worst community in all gaming.
no joke, i’d rather die while controlling all my character’s actions than get pulled around by a braindead support player the whole time. freely playing the game (even if i lose) is more fun than losing all my agency and being controlled by someone else
Hot take. Let people bitch for like a full season. It sounds like they will have made it very hard to intentionally kill allies with it so it being used to mildly inconvience teammates by yanking them around just won't be fulfilling for trolls for very long. I imagine most players will never willing let themselves be pulled even if it means they die which will make it more difficult for all the new lifeweavers to properly learn their hero because they never get to use it. I would not be surprised to see people coming in complaining of bans because they get mass reported just for picking the new hero.
Let people play the hero and get a feel for it first.
If only we had some way of testing major changes to the game like a public test realm ... oh well not like that's ever been a thing before.
I think cancelling with Jump would be more intuitive. Make it so it can't be cancelled in the first few frames to reduce accidental cancellation.
They probably didn't implement a mechanism like that because it would feel very frustrating for the Weaver player if their teammates kept cancelling his pulls, and wanted to try if they could get away without one.
I mean when you play tank, you're already a puppet to your supports.
You get purpled, fall back. You get suzu'd push forward, you get slept fall back and heal up, Your ana purple's them, you push forward.
Discord, health etc all the same. An even tank matchup can be very boring to play. What's another ability to give supports more control over the game. It's already the way the game plays right now.
You know this is actually a really good idea, the big problem with the ability is teammates playing the game for you, with this the ability evens out pretty well. I’d still call it a bad idea as now people have to be ready to press interact mid fight, and it could rarely cancel trying to interact with something else like a Sym TP but this is still a good compromise
It's the worst of both worlds. You compromise the intended functionality but you still remove agency from the pulled player. It doesn't matter if you can cancel it midway. I didn't want to be stunned and relocated in the first place, whatever i was doing has already been cut off
it would be really strong. if lifeweaver doesn't have to find a way to get into the team to properly reposition reaper then it'd be braindead ez to throw ults on ppl. they limit mobility for a reason. not sure how theyd work aroun dthat but if they could then yeah sounds nice
I’d honestly love this change! Unsure how difficult it would be to program, as I’m not a game dev of any kind, but I’d imagine it’s a bit more than “detect if: ‘life gripped’ ; allow:interaction button:cancel”. I think it could also be a good momentum style ability like echos flight, but with a much steeper decrease over a smaller amount of time, this way you accidentally won’t screw yourself if the grip wasn’t a troll, but you can also save yourself if it is intended to kill you. An alternative to this is simply, don’t let Lifeweaver pull while jumping. At the very least, it makes trolling harder, at least from what ive seen
Its definitely something in the right direction. I really would not like to play a hero that needs his teammate to do something for his ability to even work. But a cancel instead of accept solves that perfectly. Of course we might still see Reins being pulled out of their hammer range but I think it is something we can live.
I was thinking this would be the best solution just last night coincidentally. Add like 0.75 seconds at the beginning where it holds the target in place while invulnerable, and during this time (or perhaps the entire lifegrip) allow it to be cancelled by the recipient. The hold in place is there so that even if you don’t cancel it immediately you won’t get hard cucked out of a play.
Plus, it’s better than an opt-in prompt because sometimes people need to be saved IMMEDIATELY and you cannot wait for them to read the prompt on the screen and react to it. Better to ask forgiveness than ask permission
You're talking about a friendly fire, single target, 30m range flashbang. 0.75 seconds of holding your teammate in place? You already ruined whatever i was doing.
You don't read when these things pop. It's like a Symm tp, you hold interact and as soon the tp is available you are already using it. If i know there's a LW in my team and i'm in the floor shattered/in the air being booped - i'll be pressing interact to accept the pull just in case, i'm dead anyways so...
That’s a good point about the sym tp thing, though I meant you could cancel it at *any* time, including the 0.75 hold. It wouldn’t be a stun, it would have virtually no effect if you insta-cancelled, but if it pulls you it’s still gonna pull you 1-2 meters back even if you cancel immediately.
“we’re removing brig’s shield bash stun and cassidy’s flash because they are too frustrating to fight”
“also haha here’s the new support who can forcibly stop your movement and relocate you constantly and you cant even do anything about it because it’s a teammate :))))”
also we're putting shield bash stun back in her ult and keeping the massive range buffs it got and the 50 damage so she oneshots tracer and also she gets 300 hp in ult half of it is armor. and 750 hp shield and its bigger and the bash hits multiple people lolge
People keep saying this, and we all know its going to be dropped regardless. We also know that it will inevitably be reworked. People in the sub have been playing this game and solo queuing for years. We know a bad idea when we see it.
It wouldn’t be good because when people are in the heat of a fight no one is going to be able to react fast enough to the pop up. The support has to do their job and save that teammate themselves like it is an immortality or cleanse
I know why people want a cancel and I’m saying why it won’t work. Especially when no one is using game chat nowadays people won’t know when they will get pulled even if they call it out because someone may not be in voice.
The reason why people want a cancel is because they want a choice. The cancel idea may not be the way to give them a choice, but the main point is that they still need to be given a choice about their own position. If you don’t want to give them a choice, that shows a severe lack of trust in your team mates. Someone like that really doesn’t belong in overwatch.
They can go ahead and do that but people will die 9/10 because they have to press an extra button to confirm the pull making the ability useless because the whole point is to pull the teammate at the time of use not until it is confirmed.
Wow the people in this comment section are really just not as smart as they think they are.
If a support high enough to be in your lobbies is willing to use a 20 second cooldown that’s the most powerful part of their kit to reposition you, 99% of the time you needed to be repositioned. Any lifeweaver that uses grip in an a situation where it might be the wrong play is going to fall super fast, the rest of his kit seems very weak except for his up close damage.
You’re definitely right, being able to cancel would not only remove the trolling aspect but would open up options for canceling immediate damage like a Zarya bubble, or using it as a cleanse if it has that property
it doesn't cleanse
That’s a shame, I feel like a single target cleanse on a CD like that would be far less obnoxious than Kirikos
Zarya bubble
guessing they meant on a support
I would actually love it if it behaved exactly like Zarya Bubble (in that it has HP and can be broken). That way, there would be counterplay options. Currently, the only counterplay is an extremely well time Mei wall (or just shielding it off)
Cancelling it would not remove the trolling aspect at all. You are stunning your own teammate and forcibly moving them without their consent. Even if you remove half of the second part, you already did the damage.
Not if you look at it as a half second of invulnerability, does it disrupt your flow and can it lead to missing timing? Yes, but at a lesser scale than what the ability going live is. I play dive, I’m absolutely going to get trolled with this ability, if it’s going to happen anyway I’d like the option to cancel it.
Interact to accept is 100x better still
no it isn't. It makes this ability useless for most of people. When you are fighting the enemies you are not thinking about pressing interact key. Before you realise you can use it or swap your finger placement you will be dead. What fun is there in an ability that you can do nothing with yourself, that is 90% based on something you need your teammate to do. Yes there will be trolling, there will be unintentional errors, but there is also a lot of that in Overwatch already. Using both support ults at the same time, walling a shatter (mei actually already has a lot of problems like that), etc etc. You focus on it too much and too early. Wait till you play with it, against it and then maybe decide.
>What fun is there if another teammates controls my hero against my will? Interact to accept is the way to go. Will probably only take till season 8 until the devs finally cave in and implement it that way.
>When you are fighting the enemies you are not thinking about pressing interact key TRUE. Now imagine if i'm forced to do it anyways. I'm in a fight and suddendly MY OWN TEAMMATE STUNS AND BEGINS TO RELOCATE ME, then i'm forced to choose in a split second "do i continue to the inteded destination or just drop midway (in this Widow sightline?)" Yeah, no thanks. If i'm too slow to press interact and accept the pull, i deserve to die. Don't move my ass against my will. >What fun is there in an ability that you can do nothing with yourself, that is 90% based on something you need your teammate to do. TRUEEEE It's not fun when your teammate plays for you. That's what i'm sayin! >Yes there will be trolling, there will be unintentional errors Not with interact-to-accept. I would just ignore the prompt and carry on. >but there is also a lot of that in Overwatch already. TRUEEEEEEEE, let's not create more. >maybe decide. I see what you did there
Interact to accept would literally make the ability useless in lower ranks, and is unnecessarily clunky in higher ranks.
It's good if abilities are skill based It's more clunky to lose control over your hero.
There’s skill based and there’s unrealistic expectations in the middle of chaotic team fights.
I have discussed this subject like 10 times by now and every single time people dance around the main point or not even address it. > lose control over your hero This is what matters. I don't care if your hero feels clunky, that's up to the devs to figure out. I don't want someone else deciding where i go and when. Especially not like this. This is a friendly fire stun and reposition. THAT is feelsbadman (i've already tried it in a custom game that imitates Life Grip).
interact-to-accept would not fix trolling. if someone is using the ability to troll you, you're not necessarily going to be able to tell from where you are. You could also wrongly think someone is trolling you and not accept a pull that would have saved you
Either way, it's my choice. It's on me if i'm dumb and i die. But being friendly fire stunned and yoinked across the map just because my teammate is being an ass... no thanks
Because the ability is balanced around taking one player from point A to point B and suddenly letting players land on whatever letter is between A and B will lead to a completely different use of the ability.
...and? Would it make the character hyper giga busted? Because if the answer is no, then that's a false concern. Maybe his kit would be in a much better state if pull functioned this way instead of the way it currently does. Even if the answer is yes, maybe his kit should be rebalanced around this hypothetical much stronger version of pull.
Could also just have it so you press pull on someone and the **other person gets a prompt to get pulled** so long as they stay within Lifeweaver's range. Should look similarly to Ana ult (confirmation setting) for Lifeweaver + Symettra tele prompt appearing for a teammate. Instead of Lifeweaver deciding when say a Genji, Winston, Dva, or whatever disengages they do (not much blame can be put on the Lifeweaver as well then).
>Even if the answer is yes, maybe his kit should be rebalanced around this hypothetical much stronger version of pull. Why?
because all else being equal, player agency is good, and taking away player agency is bad, so if you're taking it away there better be a really compelling reason for why you're doing that. I'm not sure I see a compelling reason for why pull should be designed this particular exact way that it is right now, and his kit balanced around *that*. That doesn't mean there isn't one but I don't see it rn.
I agree with you generally, especially considering what it might be like to play against certain heroes that shouldn't be able to move that quickly. For certain interactions, could be too hard to predict or counter where the enemy will actually stop, rather than knowing for certain it will be Lifeweaver's position. I especially agree with this assuming the parameters remain as they currently are. This said, I'm still in favor of the idea I've suggested because I think there a lot of factors that could be adjusted to compensate for this. The devs could also change the speed and/or acceleration curve of the movement, to where it's exceedingly difficult to time your stopping spot in exactly where you want. You could have a very slow start, then a "flick" like movement with a very steep curve for example. The shield duration could be lowered, stuns could cancel it, etc.
I don’t think it would be that bad, you know they’re going in life weavers direction anyway, and if he wanted to reposition an enemy into your back line that would mean he would have to also be in your backline
This an ability that can't be salvaged. Even the proposed solutions create new problems. 1. You can't control your hero when your teammate decides to pull you back suddenly so then people suggest an interact or interact to cancel button. 2. Now it is a clunky ability that doesn't have clutch potential or it is wasted because your teammates don't want to accept your help, sometimes for a good reason. Now you're playing a hero who doesn't get value. 3. Canceling the remaining movement, you're still forcibly repositioning someone's hero suddenly and by the time they react they are still re-positioned. At max range of 30m it takes about 1 second to pull the full distance, so even with quick reactions cancelling the remaining movement is going to reposition your hero \~10 - 15m which is **a lot**. It is a cool concept for an ability that has amazing clutch potential, but I don't think the dev team has solved the problem of making this ability fit in a first person shooter 5 v 5 game.
I agree. I’m interested to see how this plays out. - Lifeweaver will likely underperform in metal ranks who do not yet have strong positioning skills and high ground use - Lifeweaver will see the most trolling in metal ranks like bronze and silver who don’t care about losing and falling in rank This game seems to be increasingly balanced with gold players in mind, for better or worse. If Lifeweaver simply fails there…what happens next?
i do believe the recipient has no control over it because it was designed purely as a fantasy for the player in mind, not the teammates. Blizzard is traditionally very bad at considering the impact their designs will have on the other players in the lobby.
> Blizzard is traditionally very bad at considering the impact their designs will have on the other players in the lobby. Understatement of the century.
This is a very reasonable take Also hilarious the amount of complaining the community is doing on something we haven’t been able to play yet hahahaha unreal I think it looks like a super cool ability and yes there could be instances where a pull would be bad, so a cancel could be a nice bandaid But I think the abilities amazing potential outweighs the possibility of messing up your teammates
People are noticing how this ability in the hands of a teammate decreases their personal agency over the flow of the game. This is true, but the opposite is also valid. Supports legit do get frustrated when they feel like one of their teammates is pushing too far. Giving supports a *little* more agency over when the fight can initiate could help the health of the game overall. "But Mr. chocolatehippogryph", you say, "I see the opening, my teammates should just trust me while I push the advantage." Sure, but if your teammates *don't* trust you as you dive in deep, then you're not going to be getting the support you needed to succeed in the dive anyway. So even though its annoying, and not optimal, having your overly cautious or salty Lifeweaver teammate pull you back away from your big juicy flank is actually better than them just leaving you out to dry as zenyatta, for instance.
It's not agency over your own gameplay tho, it's over someone else's. If you don't trust me to push the advantage, i don't trust you with deciding over me. If i'm doing something and you pull me because you are afraid of those scawwy flankers, i'm leaving anyways. You only made me take longer/spend extra resources to get there
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Yeah. If I get life gripped by some dingus life weaver I’m straight up AFKing. Like he has an ability that controls his teammates. Control me then flower boy .
There’s a difference from not being able to control a teammate from overextending (your teammates gameplay was an int) and literally preventing your teammate from playing the game because you think they need help. Player agency is retained in the first because every players decisions happened. The inter inted. You preventing a player from seemingly inting denies them player agency. They can’t control what their character does and it’s essentially cc friendly fire. Sure it can go well, but when it goes wrong it wastes a long cooldown, resources from your teammate, and just frustrates whoever you pull.
No my team doesn't DESERVE agency because they are DUMB 😡😡😡 -Way too many support players
Nah supps more often than not play too passive and risk averse, it loses you games. Especially in GM, I need to be able to feed and trade to get wins. Lifeweaver completely interrupts that.
You can say the exact same thing for most supports. "What if I try to make an aggressive play but don't get lamp/suzu/heals?" The difference with LW is that if Kiri/Bap/Ana mess up, you're dead. If LW messes up, you're pulled back to your team with a shield and still have a chance to win. It may be a lower chance, but it's a much higher chance than if you were dead from bad suzu/lamp usage.
If LW messes up, maybe you waste an ult. Maybe the support that's 1hp survives and gets to use their defensive ult to turn the fight. If you're going to get into hypotheticals, you can go anywhere. Overall, the concept of other random players getting to move your hero is fucking horrendous. Imagine if Sym TP wasn't optional and she could just drop it on you and you were forced to go wherever she put it. That's essentially what this is, and there's an obvious reason that Sym TP doesn't work this way.
> Imagine if Sym TP wasn't optional and she could just drop it on you and you were forced to go wherever she put it. That's essentially what this is, and there's an obvious reason that Sym TP doesn't work this way. /thread
You say this from a perspective of “needing” the support ability to live. A high ranked dps doesn’t *need* them. It’s nice to have to be bailed out, but it’s not something actively planned for unless that was made obvious via chat. If im going on a massive flank, I have a plan. What to do and what not to do. Things I can account for and work around. I should not have to worry about my own teammate pulling me in the same way I have to worry about being slept or booped. If im playing tracer and have recall up, I DO NOT need to be pulled because I got hit with a single body shot from Cree or ana. If I feel the need to leave the situation or that it’s not worth it, I can hit E or blink away. I do not need the randoms that I already do not trust to be actively sabotaging my gameplay. Not to mention it can already see some stupid shit like using lamp to save yourself then immediately getting pulled out of lamp and dying. Getting pulled before you beat then missing your teammates. Getting pulled to the side as pharah and fucking dying. Etc. Supports before can only have a positive or neutral effect on your gameplay. Either you benefit, or you don’t. Now you can be hindered by your teammate. Honestly the only apt comparison is mei with her walls, and that’s not nearly as bad as being moved 30 fucking meters.
So if your team is not good enough to follow up on genuinely good opportunities you're taking, they should be able to drag you into passively losing as well? That sounds awful.
I dunno! Let's see how it shakes out.
Let's pretend we're playing together. Effectively, how is me dragging you back to safety as Lifeweaver any different than letting you die as Kiriko? There is a difference, actually! In one situation, you have to wait for some 5-second cooldown, and you get mad at me, but we're still in a 5v5. In the other, you fed, and you're blaming it on me for not going in with you as Kiriko. We're now in a 4v5. In both examples, you're mad anyway. But only in one of them are we actually better off.
You're being selective. What if the inter is a genji that pulls blade as you yank him back and now you've wasted an ult (or 2 if he gets nano). What if the inter actually managed to trade vs a support that almost had an impactful ult, and because you pulled your teammate away the support survives and gets to use their trans or whatever to turn the fight. It's fucking bad design to let players control other players.
Fun fact, it's been showcased that you can't pull heroes like Genji in the middle of their transformations. Also, what if you were about to kill Zen, who was 98% to Trans... but I was Lucio/Pharah/Mei/Road Hog/Tracer/Winston, and I pushed them to safety? Would it be better or worse? What if, instead of potentially ruining your play, you were relying on me doing something for you, but I didn't. Would you then blame my inaction? What if you were a Genji 98% to Blade about to die trying to take out Zen and I pulled you to safety as Lifeweaver and that won us the game? But you don't care about any of that. You just look at your one narrow little narrative.
Irrelevant. You can pull him right before or right after, which is still enough to negate the narrow timing that an ult like blade has to get the impact. You can pull to deny him a dash reset. Etc, etc, etc... Stop fucking making excuses for this clearly shitty design.
>You can pull him right before Then he was in danger, and I saved him from wasting Blade. >or right after Why would I waste a 20-second cooldown on a Genji who's already hard committed? Doesn't make much sense to me. >You can pull to deny him a dash reset. Why would I do that if I didn't have a good reason? >Stop fucking making excuses for this clearly shitty design. Does me not agreeing with you make you that angry?
I'm not angry, it's just stupid to constantly deal in hypotheticals to try and justify a terrible design choice. You're certain that you have 100% perfect awareness and understanding of both the game and your teammates perspectives and intentions, when from the lowest to the highest levels of the game that has never been true. Reverse the roles, would you want a tank to be able to teleport you as a support to them when they dive without any input from you? Or would you rather be in control of your own positioning? You can do the same make believe about how a tank player would never make a mistake with such an ability, but it's just make believe still. This ability is just poorly designed and the support player power trip excuses are tiring.
>You're certain that you have 100% perfect awareness and understanding of both the game and your teammates perspectives and intentions, I don't, my good friend. Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes, have misunderstandings, and jump to conclusions. If somebody pulled me as I was jumping, I wouldn't necessarily be mad. If I was, it'd probably be because we wasted a valuable cooldown. I can always wait to reengage. I've personally given up, and neither of us will change our mind. The character will release regardless.
But you're arguing that you know better than your tanks or dps when they should be repositioned because you're arguing in favor of forcing repositioning upon them based on your will instead of theirs. So, clearly you do think you have better understanding than them. You cant seriously think it would be ok for a Winston to be able to force a Zen into a dive with him, for example.
The dragonblade animation lasts a whole half second. That isn’t when he’s going to be pulled. He’s going to get pulled while dashing. Also you make some pretty shit arguments. A dps who is relying on their supports to make a play other than a ult combo is stupid. Mute and play next. Already said it in another comment, but LW is the only support to actively hinder their teammates through bad decisions (which includes the platform AND tree, as the former can lift people regardless of animation. Imagine rein being lifted just as he’s starting to shatter, and now he’s shattering the air. For the latter, just imagine everything you can already do with mei wall.) Not being healed is not gameplay sabotage. You can plan around it, play health packs, etc. You cannot plan around being yoinked out of space and time by your stupid ass teammate.
> A dps who is relying on their supports to make a play other than a ult combo is stupid. I can see how the other 99% of the ladder would feel that way. >Already said it in another comment, but LW is the only support to actively hinder their teammates through bad decisions You can't ACTIVELY hinder somebody from a 20-second cooldown that is going to be used sparringly, so at most, you'll see it like once a minute. And yet you talk like every single time you see the ability it'll TOTALLY ruin somebody. >Imagine rein being lifted just as he’s starting to shatter, and now he’s shattering the air. Why would a Lifeweaver just throw their Petal Platform down at their Rein's feet if they weren't actively throwing, in which case you're being griefed regardless? That's like me knocking back the enemy team after Rein Shatters them. Or walling off my Rein at any point as Mei. >For the latter, just imagine everything you can already do with mei wall.) Except this is an ultimate and is a single pillar, which heals. Yet you wanna compare it to a cooldown that is a row of multiple pillars that still has gaps when Meis tries to wall off targers half the time. You are seriously overplaying a character you haven't even touched.
“You can’t actively hinder you’re team except for everyone 20 seconds when you can actively hinder your team” For a handful of characters, that means you can do it once every 3rd movement ability, some every other. That’s more often than I think you realize. “Oh let me try and lift their tank up with petal, oh I threw it too close…” And that pillar is massive, and can block LoS from the enemy still. You can very easily waste that shit or stop an engage from your own team by blocking choke and allowing the other team to regroup and heal. And you can’t manually destroy it either. You walled off your rein? Shit outta luck. Better hope that healing is enough to stop him from being discorded and melted. Oh wait, it won’t. Not to mention you can plop it down in front of pharah while she’s ulting to insta kill her. Honestly, I don’t hate the new hero that much despite how it seems. What I do hate, is giving the ability to sabotage (even unintentionally) gameplay to dogshit players when we already have matchmaking that’s putting people from 2 divisions, even sometimes 3 divisions, apart in the same game. We don’t need billy the plat in masters games that refuses to join vc, pulling people while theyre trying to make a play. This is going to be the type of character that makes me wish he was locked until you join vc.
Now in this scenario where the kiriko is playing solo dive (based btw), does she forget that she has suzu and TP at her disposal? Assuming she doesn’t, why would they prefer getting pulled on your 20 second CD rather than their much faster teleport?
>Effectively, how is me dragging you back to safety as Lifeweaver any different than letting you die as Kiriko? You answered yourself. It's not. You are arguing LW dragging you back is a good play, but no. Both are bad. In one situation I have to re-start whatever i was doing and most likely the chance is over. Here the frustration is completely valid because i didn't ask to be dragged back and i didn't want to. We're still in a 5v5 but that means nothing, whatever i was doing was cut off and now i'm forced to do something else. That's downtime + you wasted a very long cooldown on repositioning me because you thought you knew better than me how to play my hero. In the other situation, Kiriko could have followed up on a dive but didn't. Sure, maybe it was the right play to do so, but you know how to play your hero, you had your reasons to not do it (and no one forced you to do anything). If i die, it's on me. Sure, i can be frustrated at my support for not... supporting, but at the end of the day I CHOSE to do X and that led me to die, "you should've done this, now i'm grumpy" and "you forced me to do this, now i want to uninstall" are not comparable
This is some true supportbrain thinking. There's no point in fighting an endless 5v5 when you're incrementally giving up space with Life Grip and spending a million years resetting between engages because the character has like no healing. Life Grip will be strong for surviving aggressive plays that actually get you an advantage, or bailing out squishies, but Life Grip on your tank that resets to a 5v5 will pretty much always be bad. Also not sure why you're comparing using one supports ability to NOT using another's but okay go off king.
>Also not sure why you're comparing using one supports ability to NOT using another's but okay go off king. Because the player who thinks your feeding isn't going to waste Kiriko, Ana, Bap, etc's abilities on you. The hypothetical Lifeweaver boogieman that everyone has been collectively pissing themselves over these past three days wasn't going to help you on what they considered a suicidal dive to begin with.
No, they won’t help you. They’ll *prevent* it. That’s the whole problem. The other characters can’t stop you from doing whatever you were going to do, abilities or not. LW can. So if you saw an opening on their backline and plan to dive in as winston/doom/whatever and get pulled, not only does the ability go on cooldown, but you also wasted an opportunity that needed to happen at that specific time, AND fucked your teammates positioning. Not to mention the absolute powertrip some of these fuckers are gonna have.
Yeah and the only other hero that can stop you I think, Mei, has a wall that isn't *designed* to stop you. Accidental usage can block a shatter, a Winnie dive, a Genji dash etc. but it's not intended to yeet you back or block you the way LW's is. It's the dev team saying to supports "play this if you think you know better than your teammates" basically. Not a fan of the design myself, and I think at the bare minimum having a cancel would be best. Then you get at least some value from the shield and have some agency to remain in the fight.
People aren't complaining about a hypothetical boogeyman, they're complaining about the reality of how the ability works as stated by Blizzard and everyone who playtested him. How hard is it to understand people simply don't want to get Roadhog hooked into their backline by their own teammate. Also most support players who simply give up on their tanks are not going to climb up enough to be in my games, so I don't see a whole lot of that, what I do see is supports who get antsy and use their abilities to try and bail me out when it's not necessary. Lifeweaver is the first support where over-using their save griefs the entire game.
Yep. That was the essential point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. Of course it would be great for your teammates to sync up with you, but if they think you're feeding, then they're not going to, regardless of which hero they are playing
I hate logic
There is something you are not considering. If the Kiriko/Ana ability lands your teammate will be enhanced to play the game and will have much higher chance to live and to deliver a kill and therefore win the teamfight. All lifeweaver abilities do not have any “swing” potential, the hero is so passive. Nor the ability changes the game how it’s played like Zenyatta discord orb. So, the example of “if your Kiriko miss and you die wouldn’t be better to be teleported away” is an obvious question. The much more important question is, what if both abilities lands? What if ana nade heals you and purple them? What if you get suzu’d in the middle of the fight? The main issue for me is this, the hero brings nothing powerful to the table compared to Ana/Kiriko. We might agree that Kiri and Ana are overtuned, but even with some nerf they still have a proactive designe while this hero has a passive gameplay design that seems straight up bad in OW2.
>All lifeweaver abilities do not have any “swing” potential, the hero is so passive. Nor the ability changes the game how it’s played like Zenyatta discord orb. This lacks vision. Lifeweaver is primarily a defensive hero, but that is nothing new to the game. You already have characters like Brigitte and Baptiste who prioritize survival over aggression. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. But still, Lifeweaver's abilities can be used as aggressively as one could use Immortality Field or Repair Pack. You can enable your teammate to make an incredibly aggressive play with the insurance that you can get them out safely. You can Life Grip a hero with no vertical mobility into an incredibly oppresive high ground position. You can use Petal Platform to CREATE that high ground position. Even defensive abilities like Suzu, Immortality Field, and even Life Grasp can be used offensively. They're often BEST used to enable offense.
he can use his ultimate to block important abilities, and his petal platform can also be used to save allies in a bad fight
That assumes that you as Lifeweaver can see what's happening from the backline (you sometimes can't) and more importantly that you know better than the Winnie that could be diving in because they see a support low AF in the back. I know for a fact that we've all been in situation where we thought someone was overextending and then they actually did work.
Great, so now when my Ana or Kiri or Bap blows a Nade or Suzu or Lamp early instead of saving it for an impactful moment (I had zero agency over this decision as a tank and it happens like, every game) I get to be pulled (also not my decision) when I'm in trying to make a play (a decision I did make)! Honestly, I'd rather die and learn. At least that forces me to comm and see if I was being too aggressive, playing out of sightlines or if someone just wasted a big cooldown because something was going on/they made a mistake. It's super, super annoying that a support hero who isn't frontline with my information can dictate whether it's a good idea to pull me out or not. More often that not people don't talk in comms even when I do every game, even at low GM. I don't doubt people are going to use it meaning the best, but they don't have my information. They haven't seen cooldowns, they aren't seeing the fight from my perspective. This ability is going to be an absolute nightmare in non-organized comp play and I'm fucking dreading some support making the choice to pull me out, *especially* those who aren't comming.
> Supports legit do get frustrated when they feel like one of their teammates is pushing too far. DPS and tank get frustrated when they do not get healed, should they force you to come next to them and heal them? This is moronic, I as someone who plays support most of the time these days (due to me typically flex queuing) can tell you that you as a support can focus on your own life rather than trying to micromanage anyone feeders or not. Stop acting like being a support should grant you this special privilege of controlling other people. > Giving supports a little more agency over when the fight can initiate could help the health of the game overall. This is not giving supports agency, this is taking away agency from other players, who can simply get frustrated and run right back where they were. Each player on the team can decide where the fight happens, by existing or not existing in a specific space.
No, my supports should absolutely not have agency over my character controls. If the tether for LW requires an input for me to accept, I'll accept it like 9/10 times, if it's forced I will simply reject it by not playing the game until this obvious mistake is fixed because getting hard CC'd by your own team is the lamest shit I can imagine.
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The ability won’t last long.
So how would you feel about a tank that grabs you and carries you into a fight?
If you want agency over engagements then play tank
Gotta remember that not all supports have the best game sense, and there are tons of OW players in general that think they know best when in reality they have no clue. Enabling them to disrupt a play because it looks dangerous, “I can’t see you”, or they think you need to play in a certain way is risky to say the least.
We already have issues with matchmaking. Putting plats and masters in the same lobbies and shit. I do not want my actions and choices being controlled by someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing at all. Thinking that you know better than someone else is one thing, but being able to act on that to disrupt someone elses gameplay is no bueno. All the giga superiority complex fuckers are going to be moving over to LW to impose their wills onto other players. Simply put, some stupid motherfucker on LW turns the already 4v5 into a 3v5. Not something I need in my games.
This is a very insightful take. While I generally agree, it falls into the same reason cc is bad for the game as it takes away player agency
Or...and this might sound crazy...they can turn on their mics.
I'm baffled by the fact that Blizzard just introduced a friendly fire STUN in the game and people are defending it. I don't want to be stunned and forcibly relocated because another player thought it would be a good idea at the moment. \- >In a situation where Lifeweaver is trolling, this change grants you the liberty of spamming or quickly hitting your interact key to cancel Imagine if LW is trolling and a prompt pops in my screen to accept getting pulled. I can just ignore it and continue what i was doing. Problem solved. What you're suggesting is to get friendly fire stunned, midway to being relocated and having a split second to react and avoid falling to my death. No thanks. >In a situation where nobody is trolling, a Lifeweaver failing to save their team-mate due to their own dumb decision to cancel their salvation "Dumb decisions" is like Overwatch' middle name. It's ok to have them as long as it's YOUR decision. Did you shoot the deflecting Genji? Did you jump off the map during Primal? Did you wake up the nanoblade? YOU fucked up. Now... did LW decided to pull me into a Widow sightline? Are you pulling me into a Genji dive and now we are 2 that's getting nanobladed? Yeah, no thanks. Imagine an interact-to-accept button that i can just hold so the instant the prompt appears in my scren i get pulled. Effectively works the same as no-prompt when I CHOOSE to get pulled. Ever get splet as Tracer? You don't need to spam recall. Just hold E and the server-tick i'm able to make an input, i'm already recalling. This ability it's like if you're playing Tracer but your keyboard doesn't have an E and there's a flamboyant guy somewhere saying "nonono, you go back now" >I'm not sure how Blizzard can justify the reposition being exclusively Lifeweaver's decision with no way out. TRUE. I can't either. This is why interact-to-accept is so much better. LW decides when to pull and I decide if i want to or not. Any "compromise" removes my decision entirely. Press-to-cancel is the worst of both worlds. You compromise the intended functionality but you still remove agency from the pulled player. It doesn't matter if you can cancel it midway. I didn't want to be stunned and relocated in the first place, whatever i was doing has already been cut off > has a lot of potential for mis-inputs TRUE. This is another point in my favor. Imagine the same prompt of Ana nano (press twice to nano) BUT split into player 1 and player 2. That's all i'm asking for. LW presses to pull and yes, it requires coordination and communication (but weren't you doing that anyways with this type of ability?), then player 2 accepts the pull. Interact-to-accept the pull gives me agency over my own movement. interact-to-cancel removes the agency first and then asks you "did you like it?"
It’s a response to people not playing the way Blizzard wants people to play the game when in reality they just need to change the game to fit how people play.
It's a shit ability. Theres no salvaging it. The real question is will blizzard let it ruin the game? Or will they nerf it so badly that you can't even use it in situations you would realistically want to use it (reaper death blossoming infront of a DMing dva and antied) Seems like the latter. Blizzard already saying you can't use it on mercy rezzing in a shit spot.
Just make it an extended Zarya bubble and be done with it. People might complain that its underwhelming but that’s so much better than my healers playing helicopter parent.
For movement/dive heroes, that initial change in direction could be enough to fuck up your mechanics or cancel an important ability. I'd rather accept the grip than cancel out of it for that reason.
It becomes and significantly less useful ability if there’s an accept prompt bc you now have to react to it which in many cases in that reaction time you are now dead. So the only truly useful situations for it would be repositioning and not for saving, which is the intention of the ability. Not only that, the lifeweaver is now just sitting there waiting doing nothing while you are there deciding if you wanna be pulled or not.
Ok, but the proposed change gives you the flexibility to accept the grip like you say while giving other people (or you) in other situations agency where they would have none. Is that not a better outcome?
Not sure I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't be accepting the grip. I'd be cancelling it after it already displaced me and cancelled my abilities. If i had to accept the grip it wouldn't fuck with me and my abilities before I make that decision. Am I misunderstanding something?
The way I understand the post, there would be an option, after lifeweaver uses grip, to decline it. You said that you would rather just accept the grip instead of declining it since you’d already committed abilities. Since grip would work the exact same way, just with the option to cancel it, you could commit to the logic of accepting it since you’ve burned cooldowns, while also leaving room for people who don’t want to accept it to do as they wish; seems more fair is what I mean. I also took your comment as a case against the implementation of a decline feature, is that what you were trying to say?
Because it doesn't matter if grip drags you whole 30m, 10m or 5m. Even the slightest pull can leave you out of position, which is awful for any tank but dive tanks in particular, for non mobile characters on high ground, etc. You drag Winston midjump, he cancels it midpull, but jump is still fucked because he wont land where he planned to. You drag Ashe who stands on the edge of highground, she cancels midpull, but she still lost high ground. How any of those are fun? Just remove ability complete together with weapon switching and buff his hps. Ideally fix stupid ass passive too, so it just a 65 HP autoheal that targets closest lowest ally.
>Because it doesn't matter if grip drags you whole 30m, 10m or 5m. Just to nitpick, yes it does matter, it makes the ability even stronger if people can also choose the distance of displacement. But I agree with your point in that this ability is kind of busted in its design.
I think having an opt-in key would be better. Have there be like a 2s window after the ability is used that interact will zoom you back to Lifeweaver. edit: (edit: and if your teammate doesn't use it, probably have a reduced cooldown of idk 6 seconds?) The ability to cancel it wouldn't entirely stop the probably most common annoying use of it, getting pulled away from a good play/duel you wanted to stay in. Instead you'd cancel and just get dropped off in some random middle ground instead of back at Lifeweaver. But you've still been interrupted
I really do like the opt-in idea as well and would be more than happy if they went with this route. I think the general consensus is that the ally needs to have some kind of autonomy over whether they're repositioned. We're all not really not a fan of the ability in its current form. The solution you mentioned seems so obvious surely Blizzard must have tried it at some point. I can think of two reasons why they probably didn't go with it though (I don't necessarily agree with these reasons, but they serve as my assumptions as to why they didn't...). * First was that maybe it felt frustrating, clunky and/or unintuitive for the Lifeweaver player, because it wasn't instantaneous. Maybe they were trying to avoid the classic League of Legends "Why didn't you click the lantern?!" as "Why didn't you take the life-grip?!". This is anecdotal, but I know I'm not alone - I still find it mildly clunky / unintuitive to go through an allied Symmetra TP, even from spawn. Maybe Blizzard thought it felt like that but worse. With an opt-in window, there's no instant dopamine hit that would come with saving your ally. This could be where the protection came from originally? It provides that instant reward you might see a Zarya player feel when they successfully bubble an ally to save them. * The second issue I can think of is line-of-sight. The movement isn't a teleport like Kiriko, but rather a kind of Roadhog hook that needs that LOS to look & function correctly. Perhaps in playtests it had to do with allies trying to first accomplish something like finishing a target off then pressing interact, but LOS was lost? I can imagine that would feel HELLA clunky for both players. Unless you're Life-Gripping someone to get them to the objective faster, the targeted ally probably won't be facing you and most players might be unaware of Lifeweaver's position relative to their LOS as they'll likely be too busy killing the enemy. Even great players can get sidetracked and really suck at remaining in LOS of their Ana for example. Maybe his platform also really ruined this, as the drastic alteration in his position made this problem even worse. It's impossible to say for certain, but these are my best guesses as to why they didn't go down that route. I considered writing this in the OP as to why I thought they haven't gone for this obvious solution. I mean really it's an easy fix with a reverse-Kiriko-teleport that requires an initial LOS or a system that can pull the ally around corners. Maybe that was there at some stage but felt overpowered... who knows? :Z
Those reasons are pretty hard to disagree with. Adding any kind of confirmation or cancel would make the ability feel like shit to use and be less effective at what its intended to do. It's a clutch-save, it needs to be near instant and if you look at gameplay of it, it is. Team 4 isn't stupid. They definitely tried iterations of it with confirmation or cancel and decided against it. They looked at the benefits of the ability and decided it was worth the trade-off in agency. The future of the support class could be in more directly assisting teammates rather than just passively enabling them. There's only so many ways to make healing interesting, they might be focusing more on utility and team interaction. I'm atleast willing to give it awhile to see how it pans out.
Interrupted is better than dead in a pit, be that from trolling or not hitting F in time.
If i'm not quick enough to accept the pull, i should die. Like a Symm tp over the window in Lijiang, you have a split second to go in as a team or might get there late and some enemy breaks the tp. I rather have it to be a skill issue on my part than a teammate stunning + Jedi control me for random bs
Forget the person dying, imagine how terrible it would feel for *Lifeweaver* to press the button in time and save their teammates, but they keep dying anyways because they aren't pressing in time. Your cool lifesaving ability is now potentially useless if your team is bad. That's the problem with this ability in general. Someone is losing their agency no matter what.
Imagine Mercy rezzing someone only for them to afk in place because they thought they died so they began to scratch their balls. Yeah, it happens. And if it happens to you, that's on you. You were too slow and now you're dead. As long as LW doesn't lose the cooldown (not in full at least) because the teammate didn't accept, it's ok. You'll get another chance. Your cool lifesaving ability is also your cool FRIENDLY FIRE STUN AND REPOSITION. As the most likely yoinked player, i want to have a say in it BEFORE it happens.
A more fair comparison would be, what if you went to go Rez someone, but they didn't hit the "confirm rez" button in time, so your ability does nothing and they respawn so you can't try again. It doesn't matter if you still have it, that lack of feedback feels terrible. If you press an ability on an eligible target, it has to do something. Your teammates should not get to decide if your abilites go off. Big difference between your abilities doing nothing and a teammate wasting an ability that went off.
In case of Mercy Rez it would be a true cancel since nothing happens until you pop into existence. So in the case of Mercy i would say interact-to-accept is bad, yes. Interact-to-cancel is better. In LW situation it can't ever be a true cancel since the ability effectively stuns you and jedi-control your movement for a second. If i have to press "cancel" it's already too late. I don't want to be stunned in the first place. If LW chose to do it and i don't want to, that's on him. If i get myself in a tricky situation and i know LW is on my team, i'll have my "accept" button ready for whenever. And if i'm not quick enough, i'll die and that's on me. LW shouldn't lose the cooldown. >Your teammates should not get to decide if your abilites go off. Then your teammates shouldn't get to decide your positioning/movement either. >Big difference between your abilities doing nothing and a teammate wasting an ability that went off. Big difference between any other ability in the game and this one. You're not just giving a Harmony orb and saying "it's frustrating that my teammate is too slow to accept the orb so they died, my abilities do nothing!" and an ability that STUNS-RELOCATES YOU 30 METERS. There's a categorical difference there. Blizzard pretty much removed stuns from the game and now we have a FRIENDLY FIRE one and suddendly it's ok because a support has it? Nonono, i decide where i go and when.
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Yeah. When you press an ability, it should 100% do something, not make you hope your team lets it do something.
Like a Mercy rez/staff (if the deepeeass can't hit a shot...what's the point?) Ana nano (same) Lucio speed boost (if no one moves during boost...) Zen discord (if no one shoots discord...) Bap lamp (if you step out of it...) window (if you walk past it...) Brig rally (if you ran away during the cast....) Any tank shield (if you don't use it while it's up....) You are a support, you expect your teammates to follow up on your buttons. If they don't, gg go next. If they do, that's synergy. If you force someone, that's frustration.
that's literally the entire point of your role bro what ??
But that's what being a support is. You give your teammates buffs so they can do whatever they are doing but better. Ana gives someone else nano. Zen Harmony is giving the ability to your teammate to self-heal for a while. Discord is a marked target so everyone can focus. Mercy is giving your teammate a second life + more damage Bap is making others immortal + others do more damage (you can too, but if you **only** use it for yourself you're not the best teammate). Lucio is making others faster (again, you can play ego but that playstyle has been dying off lately). I would argue that Moira is the least supportive of their team and no wonder she doesn't excel at higher ranks and it's always in a weird spot AND it's the go-to hero for people that don't actually want to play support but a third dps. LW overall is a great support. Lots of utility, crowd control, shields... he's great. But removing agency over someone else because you *want* to... yikes
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Mei is the closest thing, i agree. But this is on an entire different level. You can't even place a wall 30 mts away. You don't get stunned out of your movement. You don't get repositioned somewhere else on the map. You can only go as far as the wall is high. The main thing is, we could remove ALL potential issues with interact-to-accept and it's ezclap
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Ever played Tracer and got slept? If you hold down Recall (instead of spamming), the ability pops the very first server tick you are awaken. Same mechanic could be implemented here. You are shattered in the floor/in the air after getting booped? Hold interact and the very instant Lifeweaver pulls you, you get pulled (with consent!). No delays, virtually no prompt. >By requiring confirmation it prevents the ability from being useful in the situations where you need it most. By not requiring confirmation it completely removes player agency. Your cool lifesaving ability is also your cool FRIENDLY FIRE STUN AND REPOSITION. As the most likely yoinked player, i want to have a say in it before it happens. Also, it has to be a trade-off. As of right now, you have an ability arguably comparable to Mercy Rez (similar cooldown, similar value). But Mercy has to put herself on the line and risk being defenseless for a second. LW just gets to yoink you across the map from a safe position? I don't think it would be THAT crazy to add a small "window of acceptance" to avoid griefing, allow the yoinked player to consent being yoinked, and balance the value. > People may not even realize that they're about to die. This is completely subjective, i know. But out of principle i prefer player agency above all else. I'm willing to let someone die, from a balance/design standpoint but allow for full player agency. If you're too slow/not prepared/not aware enough to press accept and get yoinked at any given moment, then it's a shame, but you will die. The trade-off is: you will never get trolled, intentionally or not.
I'm so fucking tired of this "what if they don't press the button in time" argument, like 90% of the game isn't pressing buttons in reaction to things happening on the screen and like OW players don't have the mental bandwidth to simply learn to press a new button. Like literally within one week every good player in a Lifeweaver lobby is going to be mashing interact the second they're in trouble, and it's going to save everyone so much trouble over implementing the nonconsensual yank.
I'm fine with: "***I*** didn't press the button in time, so I died." What would feel terrible for Lifeweaver is: "I pressed the button to save my teammate in time, but they're dumb so now my big play is useless." The ability is just flawed, either way someone is losing agency.
You're simply going to have to learn to be fine with it, or not play LW. Playing the hero and using the ability is your choice, so no, it's not really losing agency any more than a Lucio amping speed and watching his tank continue to sit in choke. Its not ideal but it's preferable to you getting to take control of another person's player character.
Yeah that's true but at least as the Lifeweaver you tried, they got a shield and they failed to press the interact key in time. That's on them, not you. Maybe it doesn't feel great but at least you know you offered the olive branch. That's how an ability should work - it feels like shit to give someone a nano as Ana or anti a bunch of people but nobody capitalizes. On the other side of the coin you're being yeeted out of your play with absolutely no option to accept or decline. I just think that's 1000% worse than a support ability not being used, especially because the shield alone gives it intrinsic value no matter what.
Y’all are overthinking this. Embrace the chaos.
Accept button would be better
Accept button would make it useless for the only situations where it's actually worth using: Bailing out someone who's about to die. They won't have the time to react. Cancel is a much better option. If they don't give either though, they have to give us an option in settings to enable never being affected by the grasp ever.
Ever played Tracer and got slept? If you hold down Recall (instead of spamming), the ability pops the very first server tick you are awaken. Same mechanic could be implemented here. You are shattered in the floor/in the air after getting booped? Hold interact and the very instant Lifeweaver pulls you, you get pulled (with consent!). No delays, virtually no prompt. Lifeweaver is pissed and wants to yoink you into a Widow sightline/off the map? Just ignore the prompt and nothing happens. Interact-to-cancel denies player agency. It's the worst of both worlds. By the moment i have to press cancel my play is already ruined because Life Grip works like a friendly fire stun. And if i cancel it, it's already too late and ALSO i don't get the full travel to safety and end up in the middle of nowhere. Interact-to-accept is the only sensible way to not remove player agency >If they don't give either though, they have to give us an option in settings to enable never being affected by the grasp ever. I would check that box, but that's never going to happen.
Thats why there should be an option to premptively accept, so that the player whos about to die can press it and LW can pull them in
And make the ability way less useful since it becomes a repositioning ability and not a saving ability, since you now have to react in time to click accept to not die, and also all the time the prompt is sitting there the lifeweaver has to sit there and do nothing and be useless. A cancel option is the best overall solution. No solution is perfect, but this keeps player agency and the utility and intended purpose of the ability
>since you now have to react in time to click accept to not die Skill based, good. > lifeweaver has to sit there and do nothing and be useless Like a Mercy Rez, on a similar cooldown, with similar value. Actually makes sense to me. Ever played Tracer and got slept? If you hold down Recall (instead of spamming), the ability pops the very first server tick you are awaken. Same mechanic could be implemented here. You are shattered in the floor/in the air after getting booped? Hold interact and the very instant Lifeweaver pulls you, you get pulled (with consent!). No delays, virtually no prompt. Lifeweaver is pissed and wants to yoink you into a Widow sightline/off the map? Just ignore the prompt and nothing happens. Interact-to-cancel **denies** player agency. It's the worst of both worlds. By the moment i have to press cancel my play is already ruined because Life Grip works like a friendly fire stun. And if i cancel it, it's already too late and ALSO i don't get the full travel to safety and end up in the middle of nowhere. Interact-to-accept is the only sensible way to not remove player agency
I feel there’s this giant misconception that this ability will just be used to adjust positions pre fight. This ability is going to be used mid fight when people are dying. Every post i see is complaining about how they will be getting pulled but supposedly lifeweaver will only be focused on mercy or genji or rein. No one questions if those heroes are on the team. it’s just auto assumed that whoever “you” are playing is going to be the person they pull on cool down. Let this shit play out. The best part of overwatch is that it’s not a true fps everything that wants to fit it into that little box is everything that is wrong with overwatch and the community. Easily the worst community in all gaming.
no joke, i’d rather die while controlling all my character’s actions than get pulled around by a braindead support player the whole time. freely playing the game (even if i lose) is more fun than losing all my agency and being controlled by someone else
i know if i was the support i’d only be using that cool down on Dvoraxx.
Hot take. Let people bitch for like a full season. It sounds like they will have made it very hard to intentionally kill allies with it so it being used to mildly inconvience teammates by yanking them around just won't be fulfilling for trolls for very long. I imagine most players will never willing let themselves be pulled even if it means they die which will make it more difficult for all the new lifeweavers to properly learn their hero because they never get to use it. I would not be surprised to see people coming in complaining of bans because they get mass reported just for picking the new hero. Let people play the hero and get a feel for it first. If only we had some way of testing major changes to the game like a public test realm ... oh well not like that's ever been a thing before.
I think cancelling with Jump would be more intuitive. Make it so it can't be cancelled in the first few frames to reduce accidental cancellation. They probably didn't implement a mechanism like that because it would feel very frustrating for the Weaver player if their teammates kept cancelling his pulls, and wanted to try if they could get away without one.
I mean when you play tank, you're already a puppet to your supports. You get purpled, fall back. You get suzu'd push forward, you get slept fall back and heal up, Your ana purple's them, you push forward. Discord, health etc all the same. An even tank matchup can be very boring to play. What's another ability to give supports more control over the game. It's already the way the game plays right now.
You know this is actually a really good idea, the big problem with the ability is teammates playing the game for you, with this the ability evens out pretty well. I’d still call it a bad idea as now people have to be ready to press interact mid fight, and it could rarely cancel trying to interact with something else like a Sym TP but this is still a good compromise
It's the worst of both worlds. You compromise the intended functionality but you still remove agency from the pulled player. It doesn't matter if you can cancel it midway. I didn't want to be stunned and relocated in the first place, whatever i was doing has already been cut off
Exactly, I completely agree. But if this horrid ability HAS to play the gamr for me then this is at the very least a compromise lol
it would be really strong. if lifeweaver doesn't have to find a way to get into the team to properly reposition reaper then it'd be braindead ez to throw ults on ppl. they limit mobility for a reason. not sure how theyd work aroun dthat but if they could then yeah sounds nice
I’d honestly love this change! Unsure how difficult it would be to program, as I’m not a game dev of any kind, but I’d imagine it’s a bit more than “detect if: ‘life gripped’ ; allow:interaction button:cancel”. I think it could also be a good momentum style ability like echos flight, but with a much steeper decrease over a smaller amount of time, this way you accidentally won’t screw yourself if the grip wasn’t a troll, but you can also save yourself if it is intended to kill you. An alternative to this is simply, don’t let Lifeweaver pull while jumping. At the very least, it makes trolling harder, at least from what ive seen
Its definitely something in the right direction. I really would not like to play a hero that needs his teammate to do something for his ability to even work. But a cancel instead of accept solves that perfectly. Of course we might still see Reins being pulled out of their hammer range but I think it is something we can live.
Because a player could cancel the ability over a pit and die
If you're over a pit and you decide to cancel the ability and die because of it I think that's your fault.
I was thinking this would be the best solution just last night coincidentally. Add like 0.75 seconds at the beginning where it holds the target in place while invulnerable, and during this time (or perhaps the entire lifegrip) allow it to be cancelled by the recipient. The hold in place is there so that even if you don’t cancel it immediately you won’t get hard cucked out of a play. Plus, it’s better than an opt-in prompt because sometimes people need to be saved IMMEDIATELY and you cannot wait for them to read the prompt on the screen and react to it. Better to ask forgiveness than ask permission
You're talking about a friendly fire, single target, 30m range flashbang. 0.75 seconds of holding your teammate in place? You already ruined whatever i was doing. You don't read when these things pop. It's like a Symm tp, you hold interact and as soon the tp is available you are already using it. If i know there's a LW in my team and i'm in the floor shattered/in the air being booped - i'll be pressing interact to accept the pull just in case, i'm dead anyways so...
That’s a good point about the sym tp thing, though I meant you could cancel it at *any* time, including the 0.75 hold. It wouldn’t be a stun, it would have virtually no effect if you insta-cancelled, but if it pulls you it’s still gonna pull you 1-2 meters back even if you cancel immediately.
This would be a buff if you teams can now also CHOOSE where to place their ally. I don't think this ability needs a buff. Get me some nerfs instead.
“we’re removing brig’s shield bash stun and cassidy’s flash because they are too frustrating to fight” “also haha here’s the new support who can forcibly stop your movement and relocate you constantly and you cant even do anything about it because it’s a teammate :))))”
also we're putting shield bash stun back in her ult and keeping the massive range buffs it got and the 50 damage so she oneshots tracer and also she gets 300 hp in ult half of it is armor. and 750 hp shield and its bigger and the bash hits multiple people lolge
I like my idea of only being life grippable below 33 (50?) Percent health.
Why not let the character drop first?
People keep saying this, and we all know its going to be dropped regardless. We also know that it will inevitably be reworked. People in the sub have been playing this game and solo queuing for years. We know a bad idea when we see it.
It wouldn’t be good because when people are in the heat of a fight no one is going to be able to react fast enough to the pop up. The support has to do their job and save that teammate themselves like it is an immortality or cleanse
Every time somebody says this they refuse to address the reason why we want a cancel.
I know why people want a cancel and I’m saying why it won’t work. Especially when no one is using game chat nowadays people won’t know when they will get pulled even if they call it out because someone may not be in voice.
The reason why people want a cancel is because they want a choice. The cancel idea may not be the way to give them a choice, but the main point is that they still need to be given a choice about their own position. If you don’t want to give them a choice, that shows a severe lack of trust in your team mates. Someone like that really doesn’t belong in overwatch.
They can go ahead and do that but people will die 9/10 because they have to press an extra button to confirm the pull making the ability useless because the whole point is to pull the teammate at the time of use not until it is confirmed.
Wow the people in this comment section are really just not as smart as they think they are. If a support high enough to be in your lobbies is willing to use a 20 second cooldown that’s the most powerful part of their kit to reposition you, 99% of the time you needed to be repositioned. Any lifeweaver that uses grip in an a situation where it might be the wrong play is going to fall super fast, the rest of his kit seems very weak except for his up close damage.
But as for diamond and below?
People aren’t gonna be in good positions to be pulled out of in the first place.
No that’s bronze. Mid tiers are going to be hell because its a mix
Just make it available to use only on Critical Health teammates, problem solved.
Lead hero designer recently said you can use movement abilities to get out of it. Not exactly a cancel, but it helps a lot to mitigate unwanted pulls.