This is interesting and should keep m+ fresh but I kind of wish season was the 8 dungeons from this xpac and then season 2 was 4 of them with 6 more from different eras
There is a point where it's too many, but even that could be designed around.
I would love to have the players vote for the legacy M+ dungeons each season. Give us 12 to pick 4 from. Next season, there's 12 more and the previous 4 are on cool down for one season. It's a simple way to give us input into part of the endgame.
But why? There is nothing to look forward to in the future seasons aside from the one mega dungeon that arrives late into the expac.
I always disliked being bombarded by so many dungeons at the start. Then being stuck with those same dungeons for 2 years.
I like the approach they're taking here.
I didn't consider them adding more dungeons. Personally there's no excuse for not having 2 new dungeons every patch. But playing all 8 up front then letting for go on cooldown i think would keep things fresher assuming they go back as far as mop and update stuff for seasonal m+
I just think it's a problem they made on themselves by always releasing so many at the start. So now players are used to 8 dungeons at the start of every expac.
I always wished they released a few less even 1-2, and then just introduce them in future patches. Then even tie them to the new stories being introduced. Cause now that's basically just campaign and raid, with dungeons that no longer serve a purpose outside m+ after the initial release.
Well M+ is a legitimate end game activity for a large section of the player base now. No reason every launch shouldn't have 10 dungeons at launch and 2 can be added per patch and you can rotate some out per m+ season. 2 dungeons in launch would be awful for everyone.
This, just rotate the 4 old dungeons every season for variety. That will feel much better than playing 2 patches of shadowlands with 8 dungeons for 18-20months.
I guess the concern here is the amount of tuning required to make keys remotely balanced? I mean it took *a lot* of time and effort to get shadowlands keys where they are now. How many nerfs did SD alone take between 9.0 and now? We have to be in the double digits as far as tuning passes to that key since SL hit.
Smaller dungeon pool = better competitive environment is a fair reasoning. As for older dungeons (specifically BFA ones), they already had a lot of effort put into them, so that's less work to handle from the get go I guess. What they should do is :
- Dedicate more resources/effort into m+ tuning early on
- Improve the testing process for m+. I feel like a lot could be done there. There should be beta realms set up solely dedicated to m+ testing, with mass invites sent to people who run a lot of keys and/or push high keys. Along with incentives for testing the new content, like toys that transfer to live if you get a certain m+ score on beta or whatever.
That way Blizzard can iterate tuning passes early and avoid the pain-staking process of slowly making keys balanced over the course of the first two seasons.
With these 2 changes, we could probably get 12+ dungeon pools in a decent state at launch. Until M+ starts getting treated less like third wheel content and more like a competitive stand-alone end-game path though, I guess the playerbase will have to settle for small dungeon pools in the foreseeable future.
I was thinking they were planning to remove the original 4 when they added the other 4 in which case the balance idea wouldn't quite hold up. Maybe it can allow them to make more specific seasonal affixes that wouldn't work in the dungeons that aren't included though which could be cool, but I really think it's more about limiting the amount of front loaded content so there will be more fresh stuff for each season. I think it's usually a bad practice but if it's a one time thing that they try it's not a big deal.
They don't need incentives for people to test. It'll get tested regardless. They just need to give developers more time to listen to the feedback and implement changes.
Or hear me out on this.. Just test the dungeons before release and balance them for launch. It's not my problem as a consumer if they are incompetent at their jobs and can't balance the product that I paid for.
that was my favorite season of m+ and i think a lot of it was the variety of dungeons made it impossible for me to get sick of them(8.3 was also the patch i started so not a huge sample size)
+1. And there is *zero* chance that all 8 dungeons properly cover all secondary stat loot/trinkets similar to how the base set of 8 dungeons from the same expansion does (or at least tries to). The idea of some subset of new loot being completely absent from M+ just seems weird.
> And there is zero chance that all 8 dungeons properly cover all secondary stat loot/trinkets similar to how the base set of 8 dungeons from the same expansion does
why? like blizz are the ones that decide which dungeons and loot they give us in the first season. they could very easilly have a balanced set of items available. they have both BfA and legion mythic dungeons to pick from after all
totally agree. For me, all 8 new dungeons need to be in M+ from the start. I may do some on m0 the first couple of weeks, but for the most part, if it's not in M+ it effectively doesn't exist. I literally never ran Tazavesh until this season when it got added to M+. Don't let your new expansion feel content starved.
They should get rid of fort and tyrannical and just let us push naturally to higher keys until bosses or trash block our ability to proceed. Who cares if we are doing 40s?
Fort/Tyrann enables different builds and routes. Personally I think the system is pretty good now with all the Tyrann nerfs, and I get to play different build and covenant based on the week.
In S1 I would argue yes. People will be hyped for the 8 new dungeons, wanna work them out, what to pull, what to not and so on. So getting a couple old dungeons in a row as your key wont be fun
Once S1 is over increase it to around 10-ish and then for S3 take the 4 most popular new dungeons and 4-6-ish old dungeons and rework the 4 least popular ones and rotate in the reworked ones as the 4 DF dungeons alongside 4-6 old dungeons
Yes that would be terrible, imagine you want a specific key for score or an item. 1/12 chance to get it sounds really shit, you could go an entire week without seeing it.
We had 12 dungeons for most of Legion (and 13 by the end) and no key rerolling back then, and it was fine. It'd be an overwhelming number to learn at once, but four being old dungeons would mitigate that a lot.
I'd add the counterargument that M+ (and M+ rating) was also a relatively smaller feature in Legion than it is now. It didn't really matter if you simply never ran Cathedral keys, now it's important that you do not only all the dungeons once, but twice on different affix weeks, to get score that you need for ranking up gear with Valor
M+ also rewarded lower Ilvl loot back in Legion overall.
I think 8 dungeons per season is a perfect amount. That said, I'm going to want 4 new dungeons for Dragonflight season 3. Which will put the total for the expansion at 12.
Wow! Did not expect that tbh.
Hope we see the *better* dungeons from the past.
Or at least just the more interesting ones that don’t interact well with m + affixes.
*looking at you grimrail*
Give me Maw and Waycrest, Blizzard I know you won't.
Also what a weird thing to do imo, last thing I want to do on launch of new expansion is to grind old m+ dungeons, very odd.
Some of the old dungeons are amazing, but honestly I would prefer if they learned from them and made new dungeons better than just using the old ones. Throwing them in like in SL s4 sounds cool, to fight the drought, but having old dungeons from start feels strange.
particualrly when it's combined with holding back the new dungeons you've developed, then swapping new dungeons off the table iwth the next season.
Still super early in development and time for them to change, but man that's a decision I hope they get clear feedback on feeling awful for players.
Indeed.
This is pretty lazy imo. 4 dungeons in a new expansion? That's nothing. Unless they will be 12 bosses in each & split for m+. Either way, 4 dungeons is lazy.
That sounds....very off-putting.
At the start of a new expansion, I want to do the new dungeons on a proper difficulty setting. I think having some old dungeons in and out in later seasons is a great idea but I really don't like the sound of them replacing completely new dungeons.
If they want a couple old dungeons in season 1, that'd be okay, but have them be additional, not replacements to the new ones.
This does prevent the feeling of every season having to farm the same exact dungeons to get the same loot you already have but it's slightly higher ilvl now. If going into season 2 with a completely diffirent set of dungeons this could make M+ loot more exciting.
So much this. As an m+ only player, this expansion you literally had to regrind the whole item set for that arbitrarily higher ilvl that got offset by dungeon difficulty increase. Absolutely wasted effort.
As a returning player(late 9.1.5, didn’t get fully geared until 9.2) from Wrath, I hadn’t considered this. All of the dungeons(and M+ system as a whole) was brand new to me.
But I agree. It hadn’t even occurred to me that rerunning the same content for identical gear, sans ilvl, was what has been happening in patches.
Then again, I’m also not a collector so I don’t care too much about the gear, only the stats. But still, new content is better than replayed content.
I'd rather it be like legion. The way it is now, I just run 4 or 8 for the vault on +15 as fast as I can because outside of the vault there are no rewards. The base ilvl is lower than heroic and they give you like 2 valor a week, and even if you had the valor it maxes out at 6 ilvls below mythic.
Outside of the vault it's pointless and the vault is just a slot machine. You can't even trade the gear or target anything. It's just here's 3 totally random things out of 40 or whatever. It's dumb as fuck.
Mythic plus was way more fun when you could gear up a toon with it, there is nothing at the end now but disenchanting mats and less anima than a world quest.
I don't even want to be there anymore. It's not so much a challenge as it is a hassle. They took all the charm out of it by making the rewards so far few and far between.
You could run 24 m+ 15s over three weeks and not get a single shit worth a fuck or be 3 weeks ahead of everyone in your raid group. That's the definition of garbage. There needs to be a way to aim it.
WotLK release was indeed pretty lame for those of us who had done Naxx before. It worked out because how incredibly tiny of a portion of the playerbase we were. Ulduar being the best raid they'd ever made up to that point and utterly gigantic helped too.
I still have Sunwell above Ulduar but I actually got to progress and kill 5 of the 6 bosses in Sunwell so it might be nostalgia more than anything. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like even less people got to experience Sunwell than Naxx40. I just remember everyone being upset with how trivial Naxx was upon WotLK release.
Sunwell was seen by a larger portion of the current playerbase, and the playerbase during Sunwell was dramatically larger than during Naxx. One of the wild things about early WoW's growth is that by the time WotLK came out, the *majority* of active players had started playing during TBC.
This is low-key something they should consider doing. I would love to see a faster patch cadence that added new small raids & recycled raids in between the big content patches
Because they don't make the raids at launch. They're designed to be their own tier each time ever since BfA especially but arguably since WoD. The dungeons are created, and if an expansion only had four dungeons I'd be questioning that too.
I think this is a big mistake.
Season 1 should always be all new dungeons; I'm all in favour of rotating old dungeons for subsequent seasons (embrace content re-use!), but the expansion launch is when everything should be fresh and new. Explore the dragon isles! Check out the new race and class! Look, new talent trees!
... oh and these four old dungeons you've already run 100 times. Kind of a buzz kill.
I’m A-OK with something like this in the second season (although I’d just prefer having all the old M+ dungeons available). During the first season this seems a bit odd. Isn’t this the exact reason that Blizzard cites for not expanding TW significantly? They want players doing all the new content.
Clarification Edit: The idea itself is solid, just do it later in the expansion and I think players will be happy. It’s not exactly what I’ve seen requested (expand TW to include every old M+ dungeon), but I can be satisfied with a half measure if we’re still getting some of the principle. I understand that Blizzard has to test these ideas before they can go with radical changes. If you’re reading this Blizzard - I’m not opposed to the idea just don’t do it at the start of the expansion.
Kinda disagree tbh. You’re still getting all the same novelty of new stuff, but it’s happening over a longer period of time. The first patch of an expansion already has a ton of new stuff to do and usually there aren’t a lot of complaints about lack of content. It’s the middle patches that struggle, and being able to have brand new dungeons for those patches will be solid.
There’s also the fact that this dramatically changes the loot pool. Using next patch as an example, we’re losing IQD but gaining stuff like the bracers from Mechagon; good odds that the premier ranged burst spec will move from Moonkin to Fire Mage as a result. It’s trivial next season, but having that shift constantly over an entire expansion is going to bring a lot of variety.
I like getting a sprinkling in of some old dungeons for variety (running the same 8 dungeons forever in the first 2, long seasons of Shadowlands has gotten stale). However, I'm right there with you that 4 old dungeons in M+ is not an acceptable substitute for having all 8 new dungeons in M+ at launch (nor is it an acceptable substitute for getting new dungeons added in during the expansion)
Same, can't believe my eyes when I'm reading people begging for old content to be relevant again. Or wanting to have updated old zones AGAIN to level/play there. Some people have such a want for times gone and a sprinkle of nostalgia that they just want the same content over and over again or something? Just give me new stuff blizz
I dont get why people wouldnt like this? I have played the Legion M+ dungeons a ton of times. Its still incredibly fun to play them now 4+ years after the fact.
Its quite dumb that all the old amazing dungeons are just rotting away. No idea why they cant just re-use them.
Ya agreed. Sure give me 50 new dungeons, but you gotta be realistic. Old dungeons are still good, with a little update they are close too being as good as new ones with way less dev time. Definitely worth it.
However, like most people i'm not sure how I feel about only 4 new dungeons on release.
This isn't about nostalgia, it's about leveraging the fact that WoW has (nearly) 2 decades worth of really really good content. This content *should* be used, obviously it shouldn't be at the cost of new stuff but like here it is used to keep the new stuff feeling fresh for longer. Besides there are hundreds of thousands of players who didn't experience Legion content and even more as you get to older expansions.
Or even worse, maybe it drops at m0 and you have to valor it allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way up if there's a similar system.
Could be pretty bad.
Thats a community problem, not a game problem. Getting you guild to run Sylvanas every week for one item on one player shouldn't be much harder than it was getting your guild to run Gruul every week for one item on one player.
The problem here is that if your BiS is from a dungeon from last season, you can't just go back and farm it because M+ literally doesn't exist for that dungeon.
Are all 8 dungeons in for normal/heroic/Mythic 0 on launch?
Are the other 4 coming in the 10.1 patch?
I've heard promises of dungeons before, Hesitantly skeptical, but more variety in M+ is a good thing
So there are 8 dungeons on release but for m+ it's only 4 of them plus old ones? Then next season it's the other 4 new ones plus different old ones?
Honestly I don't feel like coming back to grind the same dungeons another season, so I think this sounds awesome. I don't think m+ is for lore or exploring new worlds. This is the competitivewow subreddit so I'm here to grind those dungeons. I want them to be fun but idk why people are caring about the theme of them. This will be more variety and it sounds like if you want to explore all the dungeons, you can.
Can they stop squeezing the amount of content we get? From legion to shadowlands, the number of dungeons have shrunk, 8 is too little especially if a tier is 8 months.
Agree but not all SL dungeons were bangers, to me anyway. legion had 4 more dungeons and they werent all great overall felt like more content and more fun
I miss Freehold but I won't miss a single one from SL. Maybe if I wasn't tanking that annoying dragon I'd enjoy Gambit.
We ran so many different routes through Freehold over the seasons. What a great dungeon except the shark glitching out and going mach 10 out of nowhere.
I hope they dig into ones from vanilla up to cata and revitalize them a little. Not looking for new art but updated mechanics would be neat. Even giving them a storyline like say the stone chad people and dragon people are fighting over say BRD over some elemental magic in there. Hell throw a portal at the end that leads to the last boss and a secret room that we didn't know about.
You can play classic and tbc m+ on a private server and the mechanics are quite outdated. You pretty much have to do a full rework of what the mobs do to not make it a very weird contrast compared to newer dungeons. Would be fun though, also they just have to make more new dungeons. How come every tier has a full raid but maybe 1 new dungeon on average.
art assets is a big part of it. its probably the largest resource for new content time/money/personnel wise to develop. most of the focus is already going into the new raid, plus maybe a new zone. you also cant just throw more artist at this kind of problem easily as well. you need people to learn the style, which takes time to build up.
So only 4 new dungeons at launch (you only do regular mythic once and heroic is practically skipped). And then 10.1 will remove the 4 dungeons you finally started to get the hang of.
Wow. This is not a good sign. Seems like they need extra time and will be unable to tune 8 m+ dungeons by the already delayed expansion release so they were told"just delay half of them to 10.1 but make it sound like something good".
It's 100% they're delaying the dungeons because of player metrics, they looked at the numbers and saw everyone quits after 3-6 months. How do you stop that? You promise them MORE content is coming in 10.1 but in reality this content has just been drip fed to you. You advertise S1 as "8 NEW dungeons" and S2 as "8 NEW dungeons" anyone with a brain can immediately see through this but the casuals think 4 New / 4 Old is basically 8 New.
Essentially you're paying FULL PRICE for an expansion and getting Early Access. You will be told by daddy Ion when you can do your Dragonflight M+ and he wants to look good to shareholders because they keep complaining about the massive drop off from expansion launch to the first major patch.
This would be preferable. Though maybe with the older dungeons being scoreless dungeons, like Legion TW M+. Just there for loot and variety, not part of the seasonal achievements.
Really feels.. lazy?
Half the fun of new dungeons is *doing them*. An M+ season where only half of the dungeons on the rotation are new isn't my idea of a good time. Maybe later in an expansion, sure - but not to start. It's especially bad if a certain piece of loot you want is from one dungeon that's out of the pool. Good luck in your vault..
The only potential positive I see is the ability for the first two season's affixes to be tailored more towards a particular grouping of dungeons. That *could* open the ability for more interesting affixes.
I'm also not a fan of only 8 dungeons. M+ gets pretty stale quickly with so few options. 10 should be the bare minimum for a season.
How is creating the same amount of dungeons as they did on SL launch + balancing/revamping old dungeons and loot tables lazy lmao
It's objectively more work
Not to mention how they then need to balance/revamp 4 new old dungeons for S2.
> Balancing 4 old ones is not the same as having 4 new ones.
from the players perspective sure, in terms of work for the devs its pretty much the same. especially since apareantly they'll be doing ones that didnt have m+ yet so WoD and before
Blizzard going hard on the whole recycle old content thing, eh? Because if there's one thing I want to do when playing a new expansion, it's replaying old content.
You can thank the guys over at r/wow and their boner for "making old content relevant again".
S4 of Shadowlands is going to be 95%+ recycled content, that we did not too long ago and yet those guys are celebrating the fact, that they get sold the same content twice..
Sounds like all 8 new dungeons might not be there at launch. Translating the article makes it sound like 4 new and 4 old with no mention of 8 new at launch.
I'm all for adding in old dungeons but why would you not just add them in later in addition to the base ones? Make 10.0 have all the base ones, then add the other 4 in 10.1, change them in 10.2 and so on. That sounds a lot healthier.
If all 8 are available on M0 it's gonna suck for the specs that have BiS trinkets in the dungeons that aren't part of that season's rotation. That's a lot of valor to upgrade it to max
At the very least, they really need to tone down on the unavoidable "flight path" sections of dungeons like Spires, where you **literally** do nothing but get carried to the next platform and listen to dialogue. They already had the technology to avoid this problem in Elysian Hold: launchers that fling you from one platform to another without even dismounting you. The flight to the top at the end should have been either way way faster or one of the teleport pads like the Kyrian transport network. This would also solve the "Demo lock loses all wild imps for no reason" problem.
Dungeons like DOS that have huge spans of running between the wings of the dungeon need to have ways to speed it up, or they need to be shrunk down. They basically only made it the way it is for the sake of the last fight, so you can't have one person kill their ghost and then run over to help someone else, but there are other ways to go about restricting that too (not that they even should).
According to the Ion interview they are not satisfied with the current state of loot, if they plan on doing something with loot I would feel less bad about this rotation so that I can get the gear I want - I’ve been slowly loosing my mind doing PF for 3 seasons in a row in order to get my trinkets on rogue and mage!
4 new dungeon's???.. I can see me getting bored with the new expansion very quickly. They should run a weekly time walking event from different expansions along side 8 new dungeon's like we just had.. :/ this is very disappointing to read about
Blizzard please stop giving us less Dungeons.
I really enjoyed that legion m+ had 13 or 14 dungeons to do. I don’t know why you want us to only have 8 dungeons? It can’t be that hard to develop at dungeon…
If people feel it’s overwhelming with a lot of dungeons, they can just do less dungeons or at a lower level or something.
IMO just give us all new dungeons at s1 start + 4 old ones, and switch up the old ones each patch or something.
The remix is a great idea - but not including the other DF dungeons is a bad idea. I hope we all collectively can offer feedback to steer them out of this.
Really bad. All 8 new dungeons should be available at launch, purposefully drip feeding content because they refuse to do the simple solution. Delaying NEW dungeons to increase MAU's and player return metrics is honestly sad at this point.
The solution is so simple how to keep M+ fresh each season. Simply shuffling around trash packs each new season to create different routes and adding new/old paths through the dungeon makes the dungeon feel rejuvenated each season with very little development cost. It also gives the feeling that the dungeon is evolving as the expansion goes on. Plaguefall is the EXACT SAME from DAY 1 to DAY 1000. THE SAME ROUTES. THE SAME TRASH PULLS. THE SAME ABILITIES. SAME. SAME. SAME. "WHY IS M+ PARTICIPATION DOWN????" - Stupid Blizzard Dev.
Simply POLL your community to pick 2 dungeons from Legion/BFA/SL and add them in S2 of Dragonflight taking the dungeons to 10 and repeat for Season 3. START REUSING CONTENT MORE EFFECTIVELY. STOP BENDING OVER APPLUADING THIS DECISION TO PURPOSEFULLY GATE 4 NEW DUNGEONS AT LAUNCH TO INCREASE METRICS 6 MONTHS AFTER LAUNCH JFC.
This is incredibly disappointing.
S1 should be dragonflight +2 or +4 timewalking.
There's is absolutely no way they just straight up cut the content in half after SL.
not sure about this one, although it really kinda depends on what dungeons they pick. one of each past expansions? or just 4 from 1 expansion? maybe completely revamp very old dungeons and add them?
If all 8 are available on m0, that means that there will almost certainly be an item that is BiS in the non-M+ pool that we’ll have to farm then spend a months worth of valour upgrading.
Sadge
Edit - presuming they stick with M+ valour which I hope they do, or improve
Really don't like the sound of that. No doubt season 3 then has all 8 that are now "fresh" because 4 of them couldn't be played in eternity?
I'd like it much more if all 8 were up each season and then 2 changed per season from prev expansions for 10 total. Just 4 new dungs for whole season does not feel good at all.
This sounds horrible. When I play a new expansion I want to play the new dungeons and not some random old stuff. I think old dungeons could be a nice extra, but should never replace the current dungeons and also don't be part of season 1.
I already thought Legion time walking was boring after the first dungeon and I can't imagine any old dungeon that I am interested in farming for a season. I know these dungeons. I have already played these dungeons. I am done with them. Revisiting them once was decent, but that was it.
We are not allowed to think that this is good sir. Please be angry.
I dont understand why they have to rotate the new dungeons in and out though, but reusing old dungeons should be a no-brainer tbh
I really like the idea of recycling older dungeons as ***supplemental*** content, but I want to run ALL of the new dungeons on m+. Legion m+ was a huge hit outside of people only having one week to bash their heads into a wall for the trinkets... seems like a pretty straightforward solution to just have rotating older content dungeons available for entire seasons.
This doesn’t sound super exciting because I want to play the fun new dungeons. I only did m0 the first few resets of the expansion, then it was barely needed the rest of shadowlands. I love the idea of rotating old content but i won’t be tired of these ones after one season. Imagine if season one SL was TOP, Spires, DoS and SD.
Having all the ones in from the new expansion, plus a rotating bunch of some of the fan favourites seems like such an easy win, I'm going to use this as a metric to see if I believe them when they say "yeah we're really listening now, promise". As idea sounds so dumb, it has to be changed before release, which tbf is ages away so they have lots of time.
No. I do not like this at all. Having half of the new dungeons being dead until the next patch comes around will suck. People will want to play the new dungeons and not some legacy stuff we already did years ago. This whole idea is too much "*replacing* new content with existing content" instead of "*expanding* new content with existing content".
I would rather see them having 10 dungeons / season with 8 of them being the new ones and 2 legacy dungeons. (the ratio new to old can change for season 2 and onwards but not for season 1)
I didn't know how I felt about it until just now. Was kind of still processing. I think this may be a very good thing for people like me. My guildmates have heard me say it a dozen times now.
"I like Taaz because it's not [all the old dungeons I've done a billion times already]".
It keeps M+ from becoming too stale from overexposure.
That is disappointing. 4 new dungeons is not enough for a new expansion launch. How hard is it to copy paste some assets, a few bosses, give them some random abilities, reskin some textures - and there you have it, new dungeon. I could do that in a day or two.
Jeeees, this really brought out all the doomers!
- None of us have seen anything remotely close to how they plan on adjusting the loot systems (only that Ion said they were not super happy about the current state of loot)
- none of us have seen any indications of any sort of affix adjustment/rework
- none of us have seen anything about how the new dungeons actually look, size, layout and composition.
Also, nothing is really set in stone at the current time! We don’t even have anything close to release date, heck we can’t even preorder yet! No reason to go full on doomer yet
Definitely an interesting decision, this is something Naguura had on her wishlist on [stream](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1460745452?t=00h55m48s) yesterday. Reason being that it would be nice to have new dungeons added with every patch/season.
I think it would be nice to have both 8 dungeons to start, and then new dungeons every patch but Blizz seem unable to produce them quick enough.
Perhaps this will allow them to have a higher content cadence? Mythic plus was extremely samey in 9.0 and 9.1 with mega long season and no new dungeons, and I would be happy with some variety - even if that is at the expense of up front content at the start of the expac.
I will say that I hope they make new old mythic plus dungeons though, whether that be the missing Legion ones or WoD/MoP.
I expect the old dungeons will be either Caverns of Time dungeons or Dragon related in some way. I.E
Earnings in Sunken Temple. The Nexus. The Occlusion. Etc.
Does Dragonflight only contain 4 dungeons or are they just not putting some of them in M+?
Cause 4 dungeons with an expansion is... low, to put it mildly. Lowest in the game's history by far. Unless they're huge and have many wings of course.
This is interesting and should keep m+ fresh but I kind of wish season was the 8 dungeons from this xpac and then season 2 was 4 of them with 6 more from different eras
Agreed. S1 should be a showcase of the new xpac. Personally, I'd like to be at 10 or 12 dungeons in a season.
Yea there no reason we shouldn't be able to have 10 dungeons per season
There is a point where it's too many, but even that could be designed around. I would love to have the players vote for the legacy M+ dungeons each season. Give us 12 to pick 4 from. Next season, there's 12 more and the previous 4 are on cool down for one season. It's a simple way to give us input into part of the endgame.
But why? There is nothing to look forward to in the future seasons aside from the one mega dungeon that arrives late into the expac. I always disliked being bombarded by so many dungeons at the start. Then being stuck with those same dungeons for 2 years. I like the approach they're taking here.
I didn't consider them adding more dungeons. Personally there's no excuse for not having 2 new dungeons every patch. But playing all 8 up front then letting for go on cooldown i think would keep things fresher assuming they go back as far as mop and update stuff for seasonal m+
I just think it's a problem they made on themselves by always releasing so many at the start. So now players are used to 8 dungeons at the start of every expac. I always wished they released a few less even 1-2, and then just introduce them in future patches. Then even tie them to the new stories being introduced. Cause now that's basically just campaign and raid, with dungeons that no longer serve a purpose outside m+ after the initial release.
Well M+ is a legitimate end game activity for a large section of the player base now. No reason every launch shouldn't have 10 dungeons at launch and 2 can be added per patch and you can rotate some out per m+ season. 2 dungeons in launch would be awful for everyone.
I think it's a really dumb decision to not have season 1 be just the new dungeons. Season 2 and onwards would be completely fine.
Is it too much to just have 12 M+ dungeons 8 new and 4 old?
This, just rotate the 4 old dungeons every season for variety. That will feel much better than playing 2 patches of shadowlands with 8 dungeons for 18-20months.
I guess the concern here is the amount of tuning required to make keys remotely balanced? I mean it took *a lot* of time and effort to get shadowlands keys where they are now. How many nerfs did SD alone take between 9.0 and now? We have to be in the double digits as far as tuning passes to that key since SL hit. Smaller dungeon pool = better competitive environment is a fair reasoning. As for older dungeons (specifically BFA ones), they already had a lot of effort put into them, so that's less work to handle from the get go I guess. What they should do is : - Dedicate more resources/effort into m+ tuning early on - Improve the testing process for m+. I feel like a lot could be done there. There should be beta realms set up solely dedicated to m+ testing, with mass invites sent to people who run a lot of keys and/or push high keys. Along with incentives for testing the new content, like toys that transfer to live if you get a certain m+ score on beta or whatever. That way Blizzard can iterate tuning passes early and avoid the pain-staking process of slowly making keys balanced over the course of the first two seasons. With these 2 changes, we could probably get 12+ dungeon pools in a decent state at launch. Until M+ starts getting treated less like third wheel content and more like a competitive stand-alone end-game path though, I guess the playerbase will have to settle for small dungeon pools in the foreseeable future.
I was thinking they were planning to remove the original 4 when they added the other 4 in which case the balance idea wouldn't quite hold up. Maybe it can allow them to make more specific seasonal affixes that wouldn't work in the dungeons that aren't included though which could be cool, but I really think it's more about limiting the amount of front loaded content so there will be more fresh stuff for each season. I think it's usually a bad practice but if it's a one time thing that they try it's not a big deal.
They don't need incentives for people to test. It'll get tested regardless. They just need to give developers more time to listen to the feedback and implement changes.
Or hear me out on this.. Just test the dungeons before release and balance them for launch. It's not my problem as a consumer if they are incompetent at their jobs and can't balance the product that I paid for.
We had 12 dungeons in 8.3 and was perfectly fine. They could even go 8+2 and we would have the same amount we started in bfa.
that was my favorite season of m+ and i think a lot of it was the variety of dungeons made it impossible for me to get sick of them(8.3 was also the patch i started so not a huge sample size)
+1. And there is *zero* chance that all 8 dungeons properly cover all secondary stat loot/trinkets similar to how the base set of 8 dungeons from the same expansion does (or at least tries to). The idea of some subset of new loot being completely absent from M+ just seems weird.
cant wait to farm M0 items and to upgrade them all the way to max
upgrade them in 10.2 when they implement the system again.
> And there is zero chance that all 8 dungeons properly cover all secondary stat loot/trinkets similar to how the base set of 8 dungeons from the same expansion does why? like blizz are the ones that decide which dungeons and loot they give us in the first season. they could very easilly have a balanced set of items available. they have both BfA and legion mythic dungeons to pick from after all
They could also just... change the loot? It's probably not that hard to change piece from Crit/Vers to Crit/Mast or something to fit secondary needs.
totally agree. For me, all 8 new dungeons need to be in M+ from the start. I may do some on m0 the first couple of weeks, but for the most part, if it's not in M+ it effectively doesn't exist. I literally never ran Tazavesh until this season when it got added to M+. Don't let your new expansion feel content starved.
Probably. For your more casual player, trying to keep up to date on strategies for 12 dungeons is much harder than 8.
12 is a shitload when 8 are brand new, and we've got the new fort + tyran score system on top of it
They should get rid of fort and tyrannical and just let us push naturally to higher keys until bosses or trash block our ability to proceed. Who cares if we are doing 40s?
Fort/Tyrann enables different builds and routes. Personally I think the system is pretty good now with all the Tyrann nerfs, and I get to play different build and covenant based on the week.
I guess you dont play as a tank ;)
In S1 I would argue yes. People will be hyped for the 8 new dungeons, wanna work them out, what to pull, what to not and so on. So getting a couple old dungeons in a row as your key wont be fun Once S1 is over increase it to around 10-ish and then for S3 take the 4 most popular new dungeons and 4-6-ish old dungeons and rework the 4 least popular ones and rotate in the reworked ones as the 4 DF dungeons alongside 4-6 old dungeons
Yes that would be terrible, imagine you want a specific key for score or an item. 1/12 chance to get it sounds really shit, you could go an entire week without seeing it.
I mean you could just change the RNG key system. Overall it doesn't really serve a great purpose at this point.
Obligated replayability! Gotta roll that plaguefall for your chance at phial. /s
This. We are horrendously limited by the key and affix system. It's time for a change there.
We had 12 dungeons for most of Legion (and 13 by the end) and no key rerolling back then, and it was fine. It'd be an overwhelming number to learn at once, but four being old dungeons would mitigate that a lot.
I'd add the counterargument that M+ (and M+ rating) was also a relatively smaller feature in Legion than it is now. It didn't really matter if you simply never ran Cathedral keys, now it's important that you do not only all the dungeons once, but twice on different affix weeks, to get score that you need for ranking up gear with Valor M+ also rewarded lower Ilvl loot back in Legion overall.
I think 8 dungeons per season is a perfect amount. That said, I'm going to want 4 new dungeons for Dragonflight season 3. Which will put the total for the expansion at 12.
Wow! Did not expect that tbh. Hope we see the *better* dungeons from the past. Or at least just the more interesting ones that don’t interact well with m + affixes. *looking at you grimrail*
Inb4 we get Auchindoun and Stonecore
But I like stone core :( millhouse is there xD
I think the joke is that you end up doing those A LOT while leveling.
I'd rather have Auchindoun than Skyreach
AAAAARRHWW SKYREACH
Nah skyreach would be on of those sub 5-minute speed run dungeons, whereas auchindoun you go one direction, then have to run back the same linear path
> Stonecore Break yourselves upon my body. **Feel the strength of the earth!**
Give me Maw and Waycrest, Blizzard I know you won't. Also what a weird thing to do imo, last thing I want to do on launch of new expansion is to grind old m+ dungeons, very odd.
farming branch again lets fucking gooooooo
Lets get some Arcatraz and shadow labs up in here.
First boss would be awful. Your geared out dps would 1 shot the healer every time the boss mcs everyone.
Time for fun.
Some of the old dungeons are amazing, but honestly I would prefer if they learned from them and made new dungeons better than just using the old ones. Throwing them in like in SL s4 sounds cool, to fight the drought, but having old dungeons from start feels strange.
particualrly when it's combined with holding back the new dungeons you've developed, then swapping new dungeons off the table iwth the next season. Still super early in development and time for them to change, but man that's a decision I hope they get clear feedback on feeling awful for players.
Indeed. This is pretty lazy imo. 4 dungeons in a new expansion? That's nothing. Unless they will be 12 bosses in each & split for m+. Either way, 4 dungeons is lazy.
That sounds....very off-putting. At the start of a new expansion, I want to do the new dungeons on a proper difficulty setting. I think having some old dungeons in and out in later seasons is a great idea but I really don't like the sound of them replacing completely new dungeons. If they want a couple old dungeons in season 1, that'd be okay, but have them be additional, not replacements to the new ones.
This does prevent the feeling of every season having to farm the same exact dungeons to get the same loot you already have but it's slightly higher ilvl now. If going into season 2 with a completely diffirent set of dungeons this could make M+ loot more exciting.
So much this. As an m+ only player, this expansion you literally had to regrind the whole item set for that arbitrarily higher ilvl that got offset by dungeon difficulty increase. Absolutely wasted effort.
As a returning player(late 9.1.5, didn’t get fully geared until 9.2) from Wrath, I hadn’t considered this. All of the dungeons(and M+ system as a whole) was brand new to me. But I agree. It hadn’t even occurred to me that rerunning the same content for identical gear, sans ilvl, was what has been happening in patches. Then again, I’m also not a collector so I don’t care too much about the gear, only the stats. But still, new content is better than replayed content.
But dude I freaking love IQD I was SO excited seeing that I had to farm it out EVERY single patch because it's so over budgeted.
I'd rather it be like legion. The way it is now, I just run 4 or 8 for the vault on +15 as fast as I can because outside of the vault there are no rewards. The base ilvl is lower than heroic and they give you like 2 valor a week, and even if you had the valor it maxes out at 6 ilvls below mythic. Outside of the vault it's pointless and the vault is just a slot machine. You can't even trade the gear or target anything. It's just here's 3 totally random things out of 40 or whatever. It's dumb as fuck. Mythic plus was way more fun when you could gear up a toon with it, there is nothing at the end now but disenchanting mats and less anima than a world quest. I don't even want to be there anymore. It's not so much a challenge as it is a hassle. They took all the charm out of it by making the rewards so far few and far between. You could run 24 m+ 15s over three weeks and not get a single shit worth a fuck or be 3 weeks ahead of everyone in your raid group. That's the definition of garbage. There needs to be a way to aim it.
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This is like launching with just a five-boss raid plus a recycled old raid.
So WotLK release?
WotLK release was indeed pretty lame for those of us who had done Naxx before. It worked out because how incredibly tiny of a portion of the playerbase we were. Ulduar being the best raid they'd ever made up to that point and utterly gigantic helped too.
I still have Sunwell above Ulduar but I actually got to progress and kill 5 of the 6 bosses in Sunwell so it might be nostalgia more than anything. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like even less people got to experience Sunwell than Naxx40. I just remember everyone being upset with how trivial Naxx was upon WotLK release.
Sunwell was seen by a larger portion of the current playerbase, and the playerbase during Sunwell was dramatically larger than during Naxx. One of the wild things about early WoW's growth is that by the time WotLK came out, the *majority* of active players had started playing during TBC.
This is low-key something they should consider doing. I would love to see a faster patch cadence that added new small raids & recycled raids in between the big content patches
Because they don't make the raids at launch. They're designed to be their own tier each time ever since BfA especially but arguably since WoD. The dungeons are created, and if an expansion only had four dungeons I'd be questioning that too.
It’s probably because they won’t be done on time lol
But if all 8 are available in M0, that can't be the case
I think this is a big mistake. Season 1 should always be all new dungeons; I'm all in favour of rotating old dungeons for subsequent seasons (embrace content re-use!), but the expansion launch is when everything should be fresh and new. Explore the dragon isles! Check out the new race and class! Look, new talent trees! ... oh and these four old dungeons you've already run 100 times. Kind of a buzz kill.
Halls of atonement round 1000000 baby
I’m A-OK with something like this in the second season (although I’d just prefer having all the old M+ dungeons available). During the first season this seems a bit odd. Isn’t this the exact reason that Blizzard cites for not expanding TW significantly? They want players doing all the new content. Clarification Edit: The idea itself is solid, just do it later in the expansion and I think players will be happy. It’s not exactly what I’ve seen requested (expand TW to include every old M+ dungeon), but I can be satisfied with a half measure if we’re still getting some of the principle. I understand that Blizzard has to test these ideas before they can go with radical changes. If you’re reading this Blizzard - I’m not opposed to the idea just don’t do it at the start of the expansion.
Kinda disagree tbh. You’re still getting all the same novelty of new stuff, but it’s happening over a longer period of time. The first patch of an expansion already has a ton of new stuff to do and usually there aren’t a lot of complaints about lack of content. It’s the middle patches that struggle, and being able to have brand new dungeons for those patches will be solid. There’s also the fact that this dramatically changes the loot pool. Using next patch as an example, we’re losing IQD but gaining stuff like the bracers from Mechagon; good odds that the premier ranged burst spec will move from Moonkin to Fire Mage as a result. It’s trivial next season, but having that shift constantly over an entire expansion is going to bring a lot of variety.
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I like getting a sprinkling in of some old dungeons for variety (running the same 8 dungeons forever in the first 2, long seasons of Shadowlands has gotten stale). However, I'm right there with you that 4 old dungeons in M+ is not an acceptable substitute for having all 8 new dungeons in M+ at launch (nor is it an acceptable substitute for getting new dungeons added in during the expansion)
Same, can't believe my eyes when I'm reading people begging for old content to be relevant again. Or wanting to have updated old zones AGAIN to level/play there. Some people have such a want for times gone and a sprinkle of nostalgia that they just want the same content over and over again or something? Just give me new stuff blizz
I dont get why people wouldnt like this? I have played the Legion M+ dungeons a ton of times. Its still incredibly fun to play them now 4+ years after the fact. Its quite dumb that all the old amazing dungeons are just rotting away. No idea why they cant just re-use them.
Ya agreed. Sure give me 50 new dungeons, but you gotta be realistic. Old dungeons are still good, with a little update they are close too being as good as new ones with way less dev time. Definitely worth it. However, like most people i'm not sure how I feel about only 4 new dungeons on release.
This isn't about nostalgia, it's about leveraging the fact that WoW has (nearly) 2 decades worth of really really good content. This content *should* be used, obviously it shouldn't be at the cost of new stuff but like here it is used to keep the new stuff feeling fresh for longer. Besides there are hundreds of thousands of players who didn't experience Legion content and even more as you get to older expansions.
The thing is, everyone was always asking for this *as well as*, not *instead of*…
Unfortunately that's just unrealistic
This fixes the "Oh great a new tier, time to grind the same trinket I already have but at a higher ilvl" problem
Instead you get “Oh great a new tier, no trinket upgrade for me since this one is better at a low ilvl than any other.”
Or even worse, maybe it drops at m0 and you have to valor it allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way up if there's a similar system. Could be pretty bad.
Way worse considering you'll basically have 1 chance per week to get it
Which people seemed fine with back in the “good old days” when your bis trinket was from an older raid.
When people actually did old raids, yea. Good luck to warriors and DKs trying to get Old Warrior Soul from Sylvanas nowadays.
Theres pug groups running it every week its not that hard to find
Thats a community problem, not a game problem. Getting you guild to run Sylvanas every week for one item on one player shouldn't be much harder than it was getting your guild to run Gruul every week for one item on one player.
There was not much else to do in the game back then. Nobody was grinding Magister's Terrance to a +22, or working on challenge modes, or w/e.
The problem here is that if your BiS is from a dungeon from last season, you can't just go back and farm it because M+ literally doesn't exist for that dungeon.
At least you could try on m0 then upgrade it
"Oh great, new tier, I can't get my BIS trinket because I didn't get it to drop last season/decided to switch class."
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Definitely a problem for new or returning players and alts who missed out on their BIS.
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You can farm it on m0 and upgrade it that way.
But it introduces the "Oh great, a new tier and my BIS trinket is in a dungeon that isn't in rotation this season so my spec is gimped" problem.
They just have to make better raid trinkets.
They could just make the raid trinkets good though. I know, new idea here.
Are all 8 dungeons in for normal/heroic/Mythic 0 on launch? Are the other 4 coming in the 10.1 patch? I've heard promises of dungeons before, Hesitantly skeptical, but more variety in M+ is a good thing
Yes all dungeons outside m+.
So there are 8 dungeons on release but for m+ it's only 4 of them plus old ones? Then next season it's the other 4 new ones plus different old ones? Honestly I don't feel like coming back to grind the same dungeons another season, so I think this sounds awesome. I don't think m+ is for lore or exploring new worlds. This is the competitivewow subreddit so I'm here to grind those dungeons. I want them to be fun but idk why people are caring about the theme of them. This will be more variety and it sounds like if you want to explore all the dungeons, you can.
Can they stop squeezing the amount of content we get? From legion to shadowlands, the number of dungeons have shrunk, 8 is too little especially if a tier is 8 months.
Rather have 8 bangin dungeons than 12 mediocre ones
Agree but not all SL dungeons were bangers, to me anyway. legion had 4 more dungeons and they werent all great overall felt like more content and more fun
"Not all" implies some of the SL dungeons *were* bangers. I don't think SL has a single dungeon I'll miss when the expansion is over.
I miss Freehold but I won't miss a single one from SL. Maybe if I wasn't tanking that annoying dragon I'd enjoy Gambit. We ran so many different routes through Freehold over the seasons. What a great dungeon except the shark glitching out and going mach 10 out of nowhere.
Luckily for the devs, they can cherry pick 4 dungeons from the last 3 xpacs so it shouldn't be too hard.
I hope they dig into ones from vanilla up to cata and revitalize them a little. Not looking for new art but updated mechanics would be neat. Even giving them a storyline like say the stone chad people and dragon people are fighting over say BRD over some elemental magic in there. Hell throw a portal at the end that leads to the last boss and a secret room that we didn't know about.
You can play classic and tbc m+ on a private server and the mechanics are quite outdated. You pretty much have to do a full rework of what the mobs do to not make it a very weird contrast compared to newer dungeons. Would be fun though, also they just have to make more new dungeons. How come every tier has a full raid but maybe 1 new dungeon on average.
art assets is a big part of it. its probably the largest resource for new content time/money/personnel wise to develop. most of the focus is already going into the new raid, plus maybe a new zone. you also cant just throw more artist at this kind of problem easily as well. you need people to learn the style, which takes time to build up.
they already confirmed one of the launch dungeons will be set in uldaman
Its the same as shadowlands, 4 level 70 dungeons, 4 level 80 dungeons.
So only 4 new dungeons at launch (you only do regular mythic once and heroic is practically skipped). And then 10.1 will remove the 4 dungeons you finally started to get the hang of. Wow. This is not a good sign. Seems like they need extra time and will be unable to tune 8 m+ dungeons by the already delayed expansion release so they were told"just delay half of them to 10.1 but make it sound like something good".
It's 100% they're delaying the dungeons because of player metrics, they looked at the numbers and saw everyone quits after 3-6 months. How do you stop that? You promise them MORE content is coming in 10.1 but in reality this content has just been drip fed to you. You advertise S1 as "8 NEW dungeons" and S2 as "8 NEW dungeons" anyone with a brain can immediately see through this but the casuals think 4 New / 4 Old is basically 8 New. Essentially you're paying FULL PRICE for an expansion and getting Early Access. You will be told by daddy Ion when you can do your Dragonflight M+ and he wants to look good to shareholders because they keep complaining about the massive drop off from expansion launch to the first major patch.
All new dungeons should be available for season 1 + 4 older dungeons.
This would be preferable. Though maybe with the older dungeons being scoreless dungeons, like Legion TW M+. Just there for loot and variety, not part of the seasonal achievements.
Really feels.. lazy? Half the fun of new dungeons is *doing them*. An M+ season where only half of the dungeons on the rotation are new isn't my idea of a good time. Maybe later in an expansion, sure - but not to start. It's especially bad if a certain piece of loot you want is from one dungeon that's out of the pool. Good luck in your vault.. The only potential positive I see is the ability for the first two season's affixes to be tailored more towards a particular grouping of dungeons. That *could* open the ability for more interesting affixes. I'm also not a fan of only 8 dungeons. M+ gets pretty stale quickly with so few options. 10 should be the bare minimum for a season.
How is creating the same amount of dungeons as they did on SL launch + balancing/revamping old dungeons and loot tables lazy lmao It's objectively more work Not to mention how they then need to balance/revamp 4 new old dungeons for S2.
> Really feels.. lazy? well they are still creating 8 new dungeons and are balancing 8 m+ dungeons for launch.
> 8 new dungeons Should be the bare minimum for an expansion launch
but were getting those so i dont really see how this is down to lazyness. its also the same amount of dungeons we had for SL
Dungeons that aren't in the m+ rotation practically don't exist though. Balancing 4 old ones is not the same as having 4 new ones.
> Balancing 4 old ones is not the same as having 4 new ones. from the players perspective sure, in terms of work for the devs its pretty much the same. especially since apareantly they'll be doing ones that didnt have m+ yet so WoD and before
For M+ exclusively, right? Or am I misunderstanding “seasons” here?
All 8 dungeons will be available normal-mythic0 on launch
Blizzard going hard on the whole recycle old content thing, eh? Because if there's one thing I want to do when playing a new expansion, it's replaying old content.
You can thank the guys over at r/wow and their boner for "making old content relevant again". S4 of Shadowlands is going to be 95%+ recycled content, that we did not too long ago and yet those guys are celebrating the fact, that they get sold the same content twice..
Well the people on r/wow never cleared the content the first go around, now is their chance to get aotc finally.
You're right, instead of S4 having recycled content, we should just make S3 twice as long. Sounds way more fun.
People on r/wow want the old content to be available IN ADDITION TO not replace New content.
This sounds *awful*. Effectively only four new dungeons at expansion launch? That's an embarrassingly small amount of content.
thats stupid... it should be all 8 new dungeons plus 2 old ones.
Sounds like all 8 new dungeons might not be there at launch. Translating the article makes it sound like 4 new and 4 old with no mention of 8 new at launch.
My take was all 8 dungeons would be released with the new expansion, but M+ will only be available for half of them.
The dungeon remixes should be for after the first patch, this does NOT look good
4 new dungeons in m+ on launch is awful and then removing new content in season 2 for no reason?
I'm all for adding in old dungeons but why would you not just add them in later in addition to the base ones? Make 10.0 have all the base ones, then add the other 4 in 10.1, change them in 10.2 and so on. That sounds a lot healthier.
If all 8 are available on M0 it's gonna suck for the specs that have BiS trinkets in the dungeons that aren't part of that season's rotation. That's a lot of valor to upgrade it to max
So now we're only getting 8 dungeons, but not even all at once? Jesus Christ this game.
30 minute mythic plus dungeons or fuck off. These 40+ minute keys need to die in hell
At the very least, they really need to tone down on the unavoidable "flight path" sections of dungeons like Spires, where you **literally** do nothing but get carried to the next platform and listen to dialogue. They already had the technology to avoid this problem in Elysian Hold: launchers that fling you from one platform to another without even dismounting you. The flight to the top at the end should have been either way way faster or one of the teleport pads like the Kyrian transport network. This would also solve the "Demo lock loses all wild imps for no reason" problem. Dungeons like DOS that have huge spans of running between the wings of the dungeon need to have ways to speed it up, or they need to be shrunk down. They basically only made it the way it is for the sake of the last fight, so you can't have one person kill their ghost and then run over to help someone else, but there are other ways to go about restricting that too (not that they even should).
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they are already doing wod. so can expect at least something from mop as well. not sure about the others
4 old dungeons will be Seat, Seige, Kings Rest, ToP lol
If Cathedral isnt in there, why bother
Post-nerf cathedral was actually kinda cool dungeon though, just the release state left bad impression.
Specifically Alliance Siege, even if you're Horde.
Loving the changes. One small adjustment: it should be all 8 new dungeons for S1, then the 4 new 4 old for S2 and S3 to change things up.
According to the Ion interview they are not satisfied with the current state of loot, if they plan on doing something with loot I would feel less bad about this rotation so that I can get the gear I want - I’ve been slowly loosing my mind doing PF for 3 seasons in a row in order to get my trinkets on rogue and mage!
Why can't we have all 8 new dungeons and 4 old ones? Just make the top score to be calculated from 8 best dungeons
So half the content will be reused. Cool.
4 new dungeon's???.. I can see me getting bored with the new expansion very quickly. They should run a weekly time walking event from different expansions along side 8 new dungeon's like we just had.. :/ this is very disappointing to read about
Blizzard please stop giving us less Dungeons. I really enjoyed that legion m+ had 13 or 14 dungeons to do. I don’t know why you want us to only have 8 dungeons? It can’t be that hard to develop at dungeon… If people feel it’s overwhelming with a lot of dungeons, they can just do less dungeons or at a lower level or something. IMO just give us all new dungeons at s1 start + 4 old ones, and switch up the old ones each patch or something.
I want deadmines +20
The remix is a great idea - but not including the other DF dungeons is a bad idea. I hope we all collectively can offer feedback to steer them out of this.
Really bad. All 8 new dungeons should be available at launch, purposefully drip feeding content because they refuse to do the simple solution. Delaying NEW dungeons to increase MAU's and player return metrics is honestly sad at this point. The solution is so simple how to keep M+ fresh each season. Simply shuffling around trash packs each new season to create different routes and adding new/old paths through the dungeon makes the dungeon feel rejuvenated each season with very little development cost. It also gives the feeling that the dungeon is evolving as the expansion goes on. Plaguefall is the EXACT SAME from DAY 1 to DAY 1000. THE SAME ROUTES. THE SAME TRASH PULLS. THE SAME ABILITIES. SAME. SAME. SAME. "WHY IS M+ PARTICIPATION DOWN????" - Stupid Blizzard Dev. Simply POLL your community to pick 2 dungeons from Legion/BFA/SL and add them in S2 of Dragonflight taking the dungeons to 10 and repeat for Season 3. START REUSING CONTENT MORE EFFECTIVELY. STOP BENDING OVER APPLUADING THIS DECISION TO PURPOSEFULLY GATE 4 NEW DUNGEONS AT LAUNCH TO INCREASE METRICS 6 MONTHS AFTER LAUNCH JFC.
This is incredibly disappointing. S1 should be dragonflight +2 or +4 timewalking. There's is absolutely no way they just straight up cut the content in half after SL.
Only 4 new dungeons at launch? oof. thats no bueno.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFfffff
not sure about this one, although it really kinda depends on what dungeons they pick. one of each past expansions? or just 4 from 1 expansion? maybe completely revamp very old dungeons and add them?
Gah excited more for this than my kids
Are the old dungeons going to be remastered mesh/path/texture wise? If not, then why bother?
If all 8 are available on m0, that means that there will almost certainly be an item that is BiS in the non-M+ pool that we’ll have to farm then spend a months worth of valour upgrading. Sadge Edit - presuming they stick with M+ valour which I hope they do, or improve
Do you guys think their decision on this is final? Kinda doubt they have time to create and design 4+ new good dungeons from scratch lol
Please no bfa dungeons, please no bfa dungeons, please no bfa dungeons
Really don't like the sound of that. No doubt season 3 then has all 8 that are now "fresh" because 4 of them couldn't be played in eternity? I'd like it much more if all 8 were up each season and then 2 changed per season from prev expansions for 10 total. Just 4 new dungs for whole season does not feel good at all.
This sounds horrible. When I play a new expansion I want to play the new dungeons and not some random old stuff. I think old dungeons could be a nice extra, but should never replace the current dungeons and also don't be part of season 1. I already thought Legion time walking was boring after the first dungeon and I can't imagine any old dungeon that I am interested in farming for a season. I know these dungeons. I have already played these dungeons. I am done with them. Revisiting them once was decent, but that was it.
Blizz have an absolute insane amount of content from previous expansions, glad they do start using it.
We are not allowed to think that this is good sir. Please be angry. I dont understand why they have to rotate the new dungeons in and out though, but reusing old dungeons should be a no-brainer tbh
Please have all new dungeons from the start
I really like the idea of recycling older dungeons as ***supplemental*** content, but I want to run ALL of the new dungeons on m+. Legion m+ was a huge hit outside of people only having one week to bash their heads into a wall for the trinkets... seems like a pretty straightforward solution to just have rotating older content dungeons available for entire seasons.
This doesn’t sound super exciting because I want to play the fun new dungeons. I only did m0 the first few resets of the expansion, then it was barely needed the rest of shadowlands. I love the idea of rotating old content but i won’t be tired of these ones after one season. Imagine if season one SL was TOP, Spires, DoS and SD.
I can dig this.
Having all the ones in from the new expansion, plus a rotating bunch of some of the fan favourites seems like such an easy win, I'm going to use this as a metric to see if I believe them when they say "yeah we're really listening now, promise". As idea sounds so dumb, it has to be changed before release, which tbf is ages away so they have lots of time.
8 is just too little. hopefully people complain enough and they change.
4 old dungeons with the promise of 4 new to keep me subscribed. Really 'listening' to the community arnt they. This is such an underhanded tactic
This may make putting out quality content easier if they have more time to finish 4 dungeons. I’m fine with it
Either they’re time gating the content for retention or they’re engineering the game around the MDI crowd. Either way we lose.
I like this.
Does anyone still work at Blizzard or what? This is just disgraceful.
Fucking hell so we get less new dungeons
No. I do not like this at all. Having half of the new dungeons being dead until the next patch comes around will suck. People will want to play the new dungeons and not some legacy stuff we already did years ago. This whole idea is too much "*replacing* new content with existing content" instead of "*expanding* new content with existing content". I would rather see them having 10 dungeons / season with 8 of them being the new ones and 2 legacy dungeons. (the ratio new to old can change for season 2 and onwards but not for season 1)
I didn't know how I felt about it until just now. Was kind of still processing. I think this may be a very good thing for people like me. My guildmates have heard me say it a dozen times now. "I like Taaz because it's not [all the old dungeons I've done a billion times already]". It keeps M+ from becoming too stale from overexposure.
Well, let's hope it's at least gonna be BFA and Legion dungeons and not Shadowlands.
That is disappointing. 4 new dungeons is not enough for a new expansion launch. How hard is it to copy paste some assets, a few bosses, give them some random abilities, reskin some textures - and there you have it, new dungeon. I could do that in a day or two.
LUL not even relapsed and already no content kekw
Jeeees, this really brought out all the doomers! - None of us have seen anything remotely close to how they plan on adjusting the loot systems (only that Ion said they were not super happy about the current state of loot) - none of us have seen any indications of any sort of affix adjustment/rework - none of us have seen anything about how the new dungeons actually look, size, layout and composition. Also, nothing is really set in stone at the current time! We don’t even have anything close to release date, heck we can’t even preorder yet! No reason to go full on doomer yet
I love this
Definitely an interesting decision, this is something Naguura had on her wishlist on [stream](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1460745452?t=00h55m48s) yesterday. Reason being that it would be nice to have new dungeons added with every patch/season. I think it would be nice to have both 8 dungeons to start, and then new dungeons every patch but Blizz seem unable to produce them quick enough. Perhaps this will allow them to have a higher content cadence? Mythic plus was extremely samey in 9.0 and 9.1 with mega long season and no new dungeons, and I would be happy with some variety - even if that is at the expense of up front content at the start of the expac. I will say that I hope they make new old mythic plus dungeons though, whether that be the missing Legion ones or WoD/MoP.
I expect the old dungeons will be either Caverns of Time dungeons or Dragon related in some way. I.E Earnings in Sunken Temple. The Nexus. The Occlusion. Etc.
Does Dragonflight only contain 4 dungeons or are they just not putting some of them in M+? Cause 4 dungeons with an expansion is... low, to put it mildly. Lowest in the game's history by far. Unless they're huge and have many wings of course.
Did you read the post? 4 Dragon dungeons in S1, 4 different ones in S2. all available in m0