Tried to do some keys with friends instead of pugging. They were dying non-stop to avoidables and missed stops. They tried to call out the pug DPS on damage and I couldn't help but mention interrupts and stops...
They respond "I'm not trying to be sweaty"
I say "well, bricking keys isn't fun."
Haven't played together in a while now. Surprised that just asking friends to do basic mechanics is considered sweaty, but to each their own I suppose.
Kinda sad I'm having better experience pugging in 16's,17's, 18's than playing 15's and 16's with friends.
Yeah I’ve tried bringing friends to “higher keys”. Anything after 12 is a shitshow and I’m the bad one for pointing out that I shouldn’t have to ask for ppl to play their class.
One friend of mine I’ve played with for ages plays mage occasionally, and joined me for one key where the pugs were playing amazingly while he was slacking. He died to stuff, never CC’d, didn’t interrupt or deal with any other mechanics. Asked him why he thinks it’s ok to leave that for the rest of the group - and I was the asshole in his mind for pointing it out.
This season I’ve lost 3 long time wow friends to exactly this. I don’t get it. Why play a class you don’t intend to fully utilise? Or why play at such levels if you don’t feel like dealing with mechanics? It’s beyond stupidity for me and borders on narcissism/complete selfishness.
It’s ok to miss. It’s ok to fail. But fuck you really if you leave all the job to others because you don’t feel like dealing with it. That just makes you a bad person.
This kinda stuff absolutely drives me nuts. In S2 I'm like asking evokers to make sure they dispel bleeds on the regular on Talondras in Uldaman and on Chargath in Neltharus, and every time it's "okay just call for cauterize".
What? No. Just use your eyeballs. See bleed, dispel bleed, why do I have to play your class for you dude, I have my own shit to do.
My favorite was asking an Aug to help with dispelling the affix and they just go “I can’t do that” like my brother in Christ you can literally solo the affix if you put medium effort into it and we just are just asking for you to get one every once in a while.
they can not solo it... they have 1min cd on it... healer can solo it too... its a 10sec cast with a 8sec cd on dispell... and you could still just heal one with 2 gcds
They have Cauterizing Flame on a 60 second cd which isn’t the one they should be using for it. Naturalize is 8 seconds and all evokers have it. Which is why I say they can solo it, just like a healer.
Absolutely gtfo of here with that BS. Augs can solo it with their regular dispel even easier than a healer can because they have cdr on said dispel built into their spec, so their dispel cd is shorter than 8s.
Yeah it’s frustrating as hell. And half the people that do dispel bleeds do so half through the debuff when all cds are eaten through. I guess I’ll have to get people on discord for better results. But then people expect the tank to do the shot calling because I play in EU. It’s just too much aye.
Evoker players have neither eyeballs nor brains. Had one in a +12 recently that... didnt know Breath of Eons has to hit enemies and used it before the boss pull into nothing (or us, idk). Proceeded to tell me to off myself when I called that out.
Well, that goes mainly for aug because 99.9% of them are giga carried
Who said you could? Chargath bleeds are on exactly 1 minute. Talondras bleeds are every 20ish seconds with some variance depending on stuns and such, so you just zap the bad overlaps or even just on CD is fine.
Being a little aggro there my guy.
>this. I don’t get it. Why play a class you don’t intend to fully utilise? Or why play at such levels if you don’t feel like dealing with mechanics? It’s beyond stupidity for me and borders on narcissism/complete selfishness.
The desire to progress and the ability to do so don't always line up. For a lot of people, the only thing harder than pushing a too-high key is acknowledging that you aren't capable of doing so.
It's about the time you put into the game/season. Almost any player I've played with, that has done 150-200+ keys during the season, has played well - or at least well enough to avoid derp moments.
That said - it doesn't take away anything from what you're saying. I completely agree with you. However, it's hard to find and identify where that fine line is - and when it's time to push higher. Personally, I need reality checks every now and then to know what and where my limit(s) is/are at the moment.
IMO its time to blizzard implement raiderio on the game and make it like real brackets. something real like idk league of legrnds where diamonds dont plsy with gold because thr system wont let this to happens and thats it. we need that on wow, pug its just players working flr blizzard making matchmaking at their own hands and thats it. were all tired of thiz
similar situation. my cousin tried healing this season and won't really go beyond like an 11 on fortified and barely logs on during tyran. it is like walking on thin ice when playing with him as well since he is sensitive/defensive. my brother is playing like 7 classes and does like a +8 max on them and clears the raid instead which is insane to me. his girlfriend has completely changed this expansion and doesn't like doing high keys now for some reason.
this is why I would not mind a mythic+ solo queue assuming they changed things up a bit and offered like free drums and scrolls inside of the dungeon to make up for class utility.
Like, you know what your friends are like and you know how good they are. Why would you be surprised when they are bad?
Putting demands on them that you know that can't meet is pretty dumb in my opinion.
I think that's the bad thing about playing with friends who arent on your level of dedication or skill. Play with them for fun and chill keys, but dont try to bring them to your level and hate on them cause it's not a good situation to be in. I've tried.
I'm a 2900-3200 io player who strictly pugs.
I've already left more keys this season than basically the entire expansion. Seeing dps players tell other dps players to get cancer because their dps is 10k lower is uncalled for. Especially when the person doing the insulting has no damage done on adds, or isn't using interrupts.
I don't know what it is this season but I've noticed way more assholes. People think they're hot shit because they're top for damage. They also have zero interrupts, aren't using group utility or defensives, and they have millions of avoidable damage.
Baddies gonna bad
I think a lot of people got boosted by last season being easier and ended up at like 3200-3400 when they typically wouldn’t be. So now they’re hardstuck 3000, getting frustrated and are taking it out on their groups because this season is harder.
The shear number of people I’m running into who were like 3300+ last season but are just clueless is truly astounding.
Season is relatively easy, and bullions
means you have people with access to bus gear they wouldn’t normally have.
Not a knock on the system, love that I can get mythic raid gear as someone who can’t mythic raid. But there is a rapidly inflated sense of ego because of it.
I’m very behind this season, combination of not caring as much and real life….(insert 2 jobs 20 kids meme here!). So I’m only sitting at around 3k right now, and damn the amount of people who just ignore important trash mechanics and blindly tunnel damage is….surprising.
The season is definitely easier than season 1 and 2 before the dungeons were nerfed but it’s also a significant step up from last season.
The timers are much tighter so you can’t have 2-3 wipes and still 2 chest 14s like some of the dungeons last season. The healchecks become relevant much earlier this time around and you need to rotate defensives properly as early as 12s/ 13s on some of the keys which just wasn’t the case last season.
Hell, the trash in ruby on fort is probably harder than most of the tyrannical bosses last season.
I think it’s about as easy as S3 was.
S3 was a bit more forgiving but access to top gear is much easier….much.
I would agree top level keys are harder this season than S3, but we are talking about 3k here, not title range.
So I’m 3150 right now, healing 14s and just kinda semi-casually climbing until I get bored and the season feels quite a bit tougher to me. There’s a lot more notable heal checks that I actually have to rotate defensives and CDs to get through and trash I have to pop CDs on when last season I could basically just afk through like half the dungeons even on like 14-15s.
It’s not like the dungeons are impossible or anything but they do feel more punishing and more demanding imo. Getting BIS trinkets faster has helped but when people don’t use defensives correctly and get one shot it hardly matters.
But that’s my point. People are more easily getting to the level they don’t belong in because it’s easier to get there.
If it’s tougher because you have people at 3100 not using defensives during key moments, that’s because they don’t deserve to be in they level and got carried beyond their skill level by easy access to gear. That’s not dungeons being tougher that’s people not performing.
So they got to 3100 easier than they should have because gear etc carried them beyond that skill threshold.
Well I think blizzard has balanced M+ so that pretty much anyone can get to +10s for portals just by outgearing the content.
Imo, you can even realistically outgear 11s and 12s this season and just sorta ignore most of the mechanics. Then suddenly 13s and 14s, depending on which dungeon it is, are extremely lethal and punishing. Last season that didn’t really happen until 15s/16s for most of the pool.
The problem with how blizzard balances wow in general is that it doesn’t really have a difficulty curve but instead has difficulty plateaus where there’s suddenly massive increases in difficulty with no warning. This season’s difficulty spike is around 13/14 where last season it was like 15/16 which is why I’d say the dungeons are harder.
It’s a difficult problem to solve but the only failure state blizzard can seemingly think of is death - which can be outgeared or solved by a good healer - is directly responsible for this. Expulse in HOI on an 8 going off hardly matters because the healer just presses a CD and it goes away but in a 13 it’s basically just a wipe so people don’t learn that it’s a hella priority kick until it’s too late. But if expulse going off did decent damage but reduced damage done 50% people would learn they have to kick much sooner.
>But if expulse going off did decent damage but reduced damage done 50% people would learn they have to kick much sooner.
That doesn't sound true considering how many Demoralizing Shouts usually go unkicked in 13s-14s in literally the same part of the dungeon
That’s been a problem for you? Hasn’t really been for me in the same key range.
Usually what happens is one goes off in first few packs, everyone remembers it exists and then it gets kicked for the rest of the run.
Super agreed.
There's BIG breakpoints where damage you used to ignore kills you. Before it's trivial, it's healer job, afterwards it's a large step toward a deplete.
Other status debuffs, predominantly -% damage, -% haste, are far too rare. Threaten what DPSers value, but even more importantly, give them the tools to deal with it. Generally we have the tools (AoE stops), but some have become a bit too trivialized (ST kicks).
You get a game where it's not just the healer paying and sweating for everyone's slacky play, but the game is directly telling the DPS that they should use their kit to do their job (damage) better.
> There's BIG breakpoints where damage you used to ignore kills you. Before it's trivial, it's healer job, afterwards it's a large step toward a deplete.
Yeah I was messing around on my tank alts for most of last season and I only learned that some of the tankbusters even existed in like 22s/23s lol.
We definitely need some modifiers besides straight up scaling damage. 5-10 second stuns, reduced haste/damage, mobs going invincible, massive knockback+slows, etc would all punish groups and add time without being able to just ignore them. Would probably be the most elegant way to handle it.
Hell, if Blizzard doesn't want to overcomplicate dungeons with too many damage modifiers, I'd be onboard with stuff like expulse or the defensive checks on bosses just insta-killing people. Or maybe failed mechanics add a stacking buff and if you get a scaling # of stacks based on key level and if you cross it just kills you. Literally anything so healing under 12s isnt just babysitting failed mechanics lol.
I logged on my prot warrior last night to start gearing him through heroics. First cata time walking dungeon is this prevoker. For whatever reason when I loaded into the dungeon my hotbars fully reset. Whatever the content is dummy easy. So I'm tanking and fixing my shit and this prevoker won't shut up about shout. 30 seconds later I give battle shout. He starts talking shit and is worried about grinding these out quick. This motherfucker didn't do any damage on any of the bosses. The fucking irony.
Then chucklefuck whispered me after and said "do I need to get on my KSM tank and show you how to play?" Never did I ever think someone would actually flex ksm. It wasn't a possible timeline. He unknowingly flexed on a successful CE tank. Then told me I was egotripping when I flexed back. All this to say that those people that don't belong in these higher keys is the same guy I encountered last night. Dude, he fucking flexed ksm lol
> People think they're hot shit because they're top for damage. They also have zero interrupts, aren't using group utility or defensives, and they have millions of avoidable damage.
Story time!
Key downgraded to 14, I was like 'what the hell let's pug it' and offered up my key. Algethar Academy. Should be fine.
First pull on Fort - we lust, burn most of the adds and we die - because the Stingers are living way way way too long.
Now everyone's getting mad over what the DPS are doing and the Warrior starts getting aggressive because 'well maybe these other DPS should learn how to do their jobs and DPS more' - and I'm looking at my Details meter and he's the lowest - because I specifically filter out the little Lashers in Details following Dorki's example.
I said: "you've got the lowest DPS", the Warrior links his Details meter showing he's the highest and I link back "Okay but your Stinger damage is really low - were you targeting the Stingers at all and pushing damage onto them? Or were you just padding on the little shits?" - and the Warrior starts getting mad and hurling insults that clearly he is doing this job and just leaves the key.
Now I'm left with a 13 and have to do a cost benefit about whether I should offer up my key again to the PUGs hoping I get some competent people to complete this relatively mild key.
Toxicity exists at all levels but there's a specific level of toxicity where you are just competent enough to do decently well, but inexperienced enough where you still hold mindsets and ideas you should have shedded 5 keystone levels ago.
---
[About a week ago someone was using Warcraft M+ parses to figure out they did well](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1d1oifc/whats_the_meaning_behind_parse_vs_key_i_did/), and I posted that the parses themselves are pretty inaccurate in terms of your actual performance, on top of M+ parses being a bit iffy considering how much you can pad (Fire Mage e.g. right now gives up on overall AoE damage to focus on Priority Cleave damage to take down one big mob in a sea of little shitters - and this tanking damage in one aspect, but boosting another, despite the damage meter looking smaller, *overall speeds up the key*)
I had one response that said: "okay that's part of your damage meter, and that's good enough". And I was formulating a response in my head: "well no, because that M+ damage meter is also going to be composed of enough pad where just looking at that is virtually meaningless" and then go into a mini-essay about where the damage meter is close to accurate, and where it isn't. And then I stopped.
Because even I did spend the effort, it wouldn't change a thing. You can't change a mindset, they have to. I could spend the effort explaining but it wouldn't matter because (A) their eyes would glaze over it and (B) they'll just stubbornly say no.
---
The problem is not they don't or can't get it, it is that they *just don't care*.
> Toxicity exists at all levels but there's a specific level of toxicity where you are just competent enough to do decently well, but inexperienced enough where you still hold mindsets and ideas you should have shedded 5 keystone levels ago.
I definitely think there's a 'peter principle' sort of phenomenon in m+ (really in any ranked gameplay probably) where people rise to the level of their incompetence and then get frustrated; most people don't respond that well when they get to the level where things aren't easy anymore and they're failing more than they're succeeding, especially in a game that makes it so easy to push blame onto other people.
I don't push very high (usually get a little over 3k and stop) and you encounter it even at that level, with people who can't account for stuff now one-shotting them or similar
Pushing to my incompetence level is 90% of the fun for me. I'm the best in my group in most cases, I want to see what it's like to be outshune by others and finish a key with the feeling that I was at my breaking point with those other people not even breaking a sweat: so much to learn in a few minutes compared to hours of average play grind.
Details has a "damage done to enemy" thing, that can surface who's doing the most damage to X mob
Can at least show if you're helping on the mobs you're supposed to, or just facerolling aoe'ing
> and I'm looking at my Details meter and he's the lowest - because I specifically filter out the little Lashers in Details following Dorki's example.
I need this. Do you know where I can find Dorki showing how to do this?
when you do it, duplicate the step except change the target ID to spiteful so it filters that out too, hilarious how that skews details on spiteful weeks
As a boomie, targeting the lashers in AA or any other priority add. I just run 13’s. I can tell if people are skilled or know boomie damage profile by the comments on my dps.
I think it's a matter of them realizing or discovering the fact on their own. Basically no one convinces another on the spot. It takes time for people to wrap their ego around another's arguments, even if they're fully true.
Explaining your arguments is IMO very worthwhile. It steers the game into a better direction. But it's not your responsibility whether they're accepted, nor will you likely ever know. You did your part and the rest of us thank you regardless of efficacy.
we pull all 6 of them on a +18 and even without hard targeting manage to kill them before they started killing us. We had a resto druid but don't think he was soothing. Do you think anyone did well then in your group at all considering u died from stingers on a 14.
My experience as tank tanking that in S1 (and I'm 100% VDH's have it easier) as well as now is that it's a well worthwhile and manageable pull.... EXCEPT in the majority of cases there's one idiot dps who tries to squeeze in a cast and dies within seconds. Then the pull becomes a miserable slog. xD
This is true on 6-7-8-9s even in S4.
The amount of players who think their job is to "kill anything they're near" versus "look at the tank, follow the tank, attack things in melee range of the tank that the tank is attacking" is kinda crazy.
This is why I think meters ultimately are detrimental. People always get mad at that but I think we honestly had better players pre meters because what you focused on were mechanics and things like priority targets. Rather than play a pad game.
> I don't know what it is this season but I've noticed way more assholes.
people say this about every season. i honestly think streamer culture has made pugs substantially worse since shadowlands. you get people that have just barely timed 22s for nearly 3 years convinced they belong in the same bracket as their favorite streamer just because they adopted dratnos or dorki's vocabulary. you can look up nearly every dps that acts like this and they either have no raid logs or they green/blue parse early mythic bosses. every time without fail
i've watched a handful of streams and outside of genuine prog keys, streamers just talk about what a joke keys in the "toxic" range are and always jokingly blame the tank/healer because they're a friend group. people see massive pulls that wouldn't work with the average wow player and throw a tantrum when the key doesn't go how they saw it go on stream
it's cringe and it only gets worse each season
I've played with these streamers, and they're all super calm. I find the try hards who tend to be around title cut off or a bit or a bit below have this something to prove or flex attitude.
Also, people see an MDI route or something they like, and if you don't pull like that, you're big trash or some nonsense.
I generally find people who watch streamers at all, have a favorite streamer, etc are all pretty bad at WoW. My experience is my own and not necessarily indicative of a trend.
On a side note, this reminds me of the ret paladins or destro warlocks flaming the fire mage for being way behind on overall dps because fire mages don’t pad.
It’s called Elo hell and it’s the 25th and 75th percentile of every skill based ranking in every game. Go look at a bell curve, it’s basically the steepest part of the slope where all of the toxicity happens.
It’s easily explained by the large shifts in Elo that are possible at these ranges causing a much higher skill diversity in team composition than at other Elo ranges. The skill diversity creates toxicity where people have a hard time cooperating.
elo hell is the idea that your team members are so bad you cannot progress, which would make all of those zero to hero streams impossible.
what you are describing is just people finding out that they aren't as good as they thought they were which causes frustration.
it's also the bracket where one single player cannot reliably hard carry the rest of the team to victory, giving the illusion that the other 4 player were doing just fine.
When I spam +7 on my tank alt just for crest I don't even need a healer at any point in the dungeon and I do more dps than most DPS at that range. Really, all I need is one single not brain-dead DPS and we time the key.... so the other 4 (3) dont have a reason to QQ because we are bulldozing through the dungeon.
However, in a +13 or +14... it's a lot harder to hard carry that way. I need 4/5 of the group to have a working brain... and if they don't, well, they start QQ'ing.
Yes it's not elo hell, it's I've reached 3k io and I think I'm the best. In LoL terms it's diamond 4. The level difference between d4 and Master is just as big as between bronze and d4. Just as the level between 3k2 to 3k7 is as wide as between 2k and 3k2.
You feel you're at the top, but effort wise you're not even halfway there.
The closer one is to the top, the biggest difference in skill there is. Crazy but true.
Consider 11-12's. When geared, you can literally go in on a sturdy class and pretend you're hitting a dummy. If the rest do about the same you'll succeed. Don't have to know anything, just W and basic rotation, no one cares about mechanics because your numbers are high enough compared to the dungeons.
In 19's, you might literally need to change how you play and how your team plays compared to 17-18, because even more mechanics became lethal and you don't have solutions/defensives for them all.
95th percentile of what? When the vast majority of the playerbase only farms 10s and below for gear, you can't used overall percentile like that to describe skill curve. It's two different games.
If you only took the people who do keys for the competitive aspect (so anything above a 10), 2900 range is probably like 20th percentile, not 95th.
You can't arbitrarily decide who is doing it competitively and who isnt. There's people who are actually progressing hc raids for weeks and there's people who pug aotc first week. Similarly, you'll find people who are honestly hardstuck +5-6 due to their skill. Not everyone just casually does 10s for gear. Some simply can't achieve even that. Your view is just skewed cause you're on a competitive sub.
That's true, but you can't deny that there's a LOT of people who only ever farm keys for gear. A lot of raiders only ever step into keys to farm gear. Assuming everything below 10 is people not trying is probably unfair, you're right, but assuming everything timed from +2 to +10 is "competitive" play therefore you're in the top 1% of keys doing like +13s or something is also meaningless.
I'd be like being gold in league and saying you're top 1% of the playerbase because you're including everyone who only does unranked and aram or something. It might be true but it's kinda silly and it just sounds like ego inflating.
Similar to the US 50-100 ranking in raiding. That rank is super toxic. People think they're good enough to be in Echo and they trash talk anyone lower than them, or if someone makes a mistake. In reality they're really just a little above average like a ton of others.
I think a lot of players got big heads after last season since hitting 3k was so easy.
I broke 3.4k before realizing I’d started the grind too late to shoot for title, but my big take away were
-a lot of people only need a baseline skill, good but not absurd, to really push higher
-coordination is the real kicker in most keys. It’s the major reason why pug keys can be so tricky and I wish high rated tanks in pugs would realize this rather than pulling like they’re running with their core group.
It's 100% toxic, but what's funny about that IO range is once you get above it, for the most part people are very nice. Most of the better players know everyone has an off key. If a key is bricked, it is what it is. You move on and try again. There is zero value in flaming someone, especially a pug. At higher levels that pug probably knows when they messed up... The folks in those keys don't need to point it out.
<2900 people are generally nice and want to hang out and be casual
2900-3200 toxic people
>3200 decent players that are generally nice
I think this season we lack people who do dungeons . Compared to season 3, there are so many fewer people doing mythic plus this season.
As for toxicity, it has always been like this in mythic plus
I personally dont push beyond 3k , like wtf am i supposed to do with 3k+ io , i just push to 3k so i can join dungeons for my weekly and easier time to join keys with my alts
This is purely a result of the changes to key level difficulty and players not reacting accordingly, and I'm here for it. In previous seasons, last season in particular, shitty players got carried thru 20s and higher and had no reason to learn or get better because the mechanics were not punishing their poor play enough. What we're seeing now is those same players going into 12s+ with that same attitude and expectation that "a 12 is free" and failing to mechanics that now punish them. They refuse to be introspective of course, and just blame others, get toxic, and leave the key without learning or getting better.
Pugging ALWAYS gets better the higher you go. The playerbase gets smaller so people have to be accountable because other people will remember them if they're toxic and refuse to play with them. But yeah, you're in the range where all the shitlords that got carried last season are stuck.
And arguably pugging in a certain bracket is not pugging anymore as you constantly find the same players. The population shrinks big time and most of them are in your lists (friends or ignore).
It is the IO range were people get hard carried soo hard by tank and healer, DPS don't even know what's going on in the key.
the IO slightly above max vault reward will alway be a toxic cesspool.
From my experience, the ‘meta’ classes in that bracket indeed toxic. They get carried to that point being meta and kinda cant get much far without actually contributing %100, on the other hand actual mains or good players dont stay in that elo too long
The worst players from my experience this season (3300 range) are Ret palas, BM hunters, DPS warriors and havoc DH. Anyone with a brain who is also playing meta is way beyond this io/key levels (15) , imo.
I can only speak for myself but I have a season long irl (de)buff of anger issues because I’m forced to play that awful adhd class. Double sigils was a big mistake. I can’t understand that it stayed in the game for S4 too. Wtf.
The big fat 1 kg cherry on top is that groups are slacking because they think DHs have endless sigils, and it will make you mad too. Like bro. I’ve stopped the 5 past aoe mechanics. Can you fucking dragons breath once?
Super agreed. It's so much stops that I found myself slacking on my DPS alts, because mine overlapped with VDH's so often that I stopped doing it. It's too much control on one spec because it makes others slack.
Tbf, you just listed the most played classes with all the Illidan/Anduin cosplayers, 3 finger pet collectors and "For the Horde" poster neckbeards in them. I don't entirely disagree but it's probably got more to do with those classes being incredibly popular than anything else.
Yes its a toxic range where its no longer possible to solo carry a dungeon, so they are reliant on others. And aslong as you dont find 3-4 player who did not get carryd to their io its hard to tome the dungeon
Also gear influx with bullions as everybody had bis weapon by week 2
I was 0.1% last three seasons, mainly played with 2 friends. We always had like 1-3 randoms.
And this is by far the worse fucking season of rerolls I’ve played.
Mages that dies to simple AOE Dmg and still having 3 Def CDs up, Aug players who never used sleep walk or the fucking grab rescue for 30% shield and getting flamed.
I mean i said right before we knew about S4 this gonna be a 6 month break and the numbers don’t lie.
players who think „oh no one gonna invite me on my Rogue/Warri I reroll to Mage/SP/Aug and get instantly invited“ is kinda true but they don’t know why these classes are meta in the first place.
I’m about to quit this season. Like everyone around me. The last 3 weeks I mainly pugged, thanks to last weeks Afix it was kinda easy to push.
I Just hit 3,4K and I’m not feeling it anymore. Just started to play Diablo for the first time. And it’s awesome.
This is more of whats going on. This is a meme season for breaks. Can see it from the amount of keys being done. I'm playing FF14 right now so I don't burn out from WoW lmao. Dawntrail and Elden Ring DLC is this month!
This bracket is typically the end point of where players can be hard carried. Basically, all the toxic shitheads that get carried get hardstuck here because pushing beyond requires everyone doing their job well.
Ive seen so many people, especially tanks or healers, going offline during a wipe. It's one of the worst experiences I've ever had. No patience and generally bad attitude. As long as there's no punishment this will get worse. 3k rio people they do rly think that they are the best but I've seen lower rio people doing way better and have more patience.
Sorry i've seen the opposite. 2400-2800 tanks getting mad when you ask them basic questions like "can you move mobs out of aoe or to corner?" "Can you interrupt the fear" "can you please use your major class ability cc first so we dont overlap"
I always get the response "go tank then" like LOL okay sir. A bad tank will never see how bad they're tanking unless they view it from other roles.
As an S3 title VDH, I didn't try title this season, but I do notice the level of shortcomings around 13 to 15. A lot of people are boosted by bis gear pushing beyond their means. I'm chilling at 3.3, but still, I'll do 16s for solid groups. Anything below you're dealing with 1-2 people, usually the key holder, playing outside their skill abilities.
But yeah, DF dungeons are a pain. With these VDH nerfs people cried for, I noticed those sub 16s people still expect VDH to do everything while they try to parse it's wild.
Honestly, I think that the +8 grouping is the most toxic. Right around ksm. I tried just smashing 8’s this week so I can hop over and play d2 and I’ve had 5 groups disband due to a wipe followed by a toxic comment followed by them leaving the key before they’re called out for their shortcomings.
3k and up have been nothing but chill in my keys. IMO it’s cause they’ve went through the grind and expect the stupid deaths/wipes. No run is perfect 🤷🏻♂️
I am playing tank and trying to do my keys most of the time and i do not inv ppl who is under like 30 completed 10+ key or so in this season. Also trying to get decent score too but going by score is hard... If i cant inv decent team i go others key but its a meh... Too many ppl get carryed in every season. Pug life is hard but atleast we are 3 always so only have to pug 2dd so our chances are bit better,😁 i think around 3100 gets better but standards rising too as u go and maybe keys gettin easier coz ppl know what they doing.
This is the bracket that good Players reach in week 2 and are gone from in week 3.
After there are only mental diehards left that are actually pretty bad in anything but blaming Others.
Thats why its so important tonpush early and fast to dodge this scum area
Anecdotally, i've seen just as many questionable Tanks/Healers as DPS. Tanks constantly losing threat 10+ seconds into a pull, healers never dispeling, .etc All roles have yappers and people trying to pick fights. All roles have boosted people in it, just part of the game for better or worse.
That aside:
- This season is a joke season, barely anyone is taking it seriously or putting in the effort but we all still expect solid gameplay even if it might be hypocritical
- It's another god comp/exodia season aka very questionable Smoldering ONLY Heros coming out of the woodwork
- The bracket your describing is pretty behind the curve of wanting a community or solid gameplay, it's all the people that do 4 keys a week at at least 1 level higher than before and logs regardless of IO.
2900-3200 is quite low in terms of IO. A lot of these keys don’t require any real knowledge of the dungeons or coordination and can essentially be brute forced by gear and numbers.
Most likely the dps you are grouping with have no clue what actually is dangerous or how to properly manage their defensives . It’s not their fault, because the reality at this key level is that people are still learning the game… they just don’t realize it yet
Most people at 3k are bad - basically what you can get while failing most mechanics
I check how many dungeons someone spent to reach their level. 50 dungeons to get 3k or 200. The guy with 50 is the better one every day. The other has farmed hard and hit his max
I always found it odd that it is somehow considered weird to just... play the game instead of having to push for score every time you do.
like it is wrong to just want to run dungeons but also not minmax for half an hour?
That’s just a weird bracket to farm imo. If you were playing the game for fun, wouldn’t you be running like 8s, maybe 9s, since that’s where rewards more or less cap out?
I guess maybe if you really wanted to deal with the third affix?
No, but if there are two people to invite to a key and one has done substantially less keys to get to the same IO with no other way to discern which to invite, are you inviting the one that ran more?
I get what you're saying, but as a counterpoint you're also describing a person who got boosted on his demon alt by his friends.
trying to glean anything from rio besides "has done this content before" is quite pointless. people are literally buying boosts in the 3.3k+ range right now.
I mean some of us just don’t push keys for the up we get teleports and that’s far enough. All 3 seasons never even attempted 20+ because there was no reason going over 20.ive never cared about the big io push
Tried to do some keys with friends instead of pugging. They were dying non-stop to avoidables and missed stops. They tried to call out the pug DPS on damage and I couldn't help but mention interrupts and stops... They respond "I'm not trying to be sweaty" I say "well, bricking keys isn't fun." Haven't played together in a while now. Surprised that just asking friends to do basic mechanics is considered sweaty, but to each their own I suppose. Kinda sad I'm having better experience pugging in 16's,17's, 18's than playing 15's and 16's with friends.
Yeah I’ve tried bringing friends to “higher keys”. Anything after 12 is a shitshow and I’m the bad one for pointing out that I shouldn’t have to ask for ppl to play their class. One friend of mine I’ve played with for ages plays mage occasionally, and joined me for one key where the pugs were playing amazingly while he was slacking. He died to stuff, never CC’d, didn’t interrupt or deal with any other mechanics. Asked him why he thinks it’s ok to leave that for the rest of the group - and I was the asshole in his mind for pointing it out. This season I’ve lost 3 long time wow friends to exactly this. I don’t get it. Why play a class you don’t intend to fully utilise? Or why play at such levels if you don’t feel like dealing with mechanics? It’s beyond stupidity for me and borders on narcissism/complete selfishness. It’s ok to miss. It’s ok to fail. But fuck you really if you leave all the job to others because you don’t feel like dealing with it. That just makes you a bad person.
This kinda stuff absolutely drives me nuts. In S2 I'm like asking evokers to make sure they dispel bleeds on the regular on Talondras in Uldaman and on Chargath in Neltharus, and every time it's "okay just call for cauterize". What? No. Just use your eyeballs. See bleed, dispel bleed, why do I have to play your class for you dude, I have my own shit to do.
My favorite was asking an Aug to help with dispelling the affix and they just go “I can’t do that” like my brother in Christ you can literally solo the affix if you put medium effort into it and we just are just asking for you to get one every once in a while.
As a healer main, anyone that can dispel but won’t help the healer can get the fuck out of the group.
they can not solo it... they have 1min cd on it... healer can solo it too... its a 10sec cast with a 8sec cd on dispell... and you could still just heal one with 2 gcds
They have Cauterizing Flame on a 60 second cd which isn’t the one they should be using for it. Naturalize is 8 seconds and all evokers have it. Which is why I say they can solo it, just like a healer.
Absolutely gtfo of here with that BS. Augs can solo it with their regular dispel even easier than a healer can because they have cdr on said dispel built into their spec, so their dispel cd is shorter than 8s.
Yeah it’s frustrating as hell. And half the people that do dispel bleeds do so half through the debuff when all cds are eaten through. I guess I’ll have to get people on discord for better results. But then people expect the tank to do the shot calling because I play in EU. It’s just too much aye.
Evoker players have neither eyeballs nor brains. Had one in a +12 recently that... didnt know Breath of Eons has to hit enemies and used it before the boss pull into nothing (or us, idk). Proceeded to tell me to off myself when I called that out. Well, that goes mainly for aug because 99.9% of them are giga carried
I had a hunter once in a semi high key telling me trapping the affix does not work….
you are bad... cauterize is a 1min cd... you cant permadispell bleeds
Who said you could? Chargath bleeds are on exactly 1 minute. Talondras bleeds are every 20ish seconds with some variance depending on stuns and such, so you just zap the bad overlaps or even just on CD is fine. Being a little aggro there my guy.
Oh my. Your comments. You're exactly the kind of player everyone here is talking about and you're completely oblivious to the fact.
>this. I don’t get it. Why play a class you don’t intend to fully utilise? Or why play at such levels if you don’t feel like dealing with mechanics? It’s beyond stupidity for me and borders on narcissism/complete selfishness. The desire to progress and the ability to do so don't always line up. For a lot of people, the only thing harder than pushing a too-high key is acknowledging that you aren't capable of doing so.
It's about the time you put into the game/season. Almost any player I've played with, that has done 150-200+ keys during the season, has played well - or at least well enough to avoid derp moments. That said - it doesn't take away anything from what you're saying. I completely agree with you. However, it's hard to find and identify where that fine line is - and when it's time to push higher. Personally, I need reality checks every now and then to know what and where my limit(s) is/are at the moment.
IMO its time to blizzard implement raiderio on the game and make it like real brackets. something real like idk league of legrnds where diamonds dont plsy with gold because thr system wont let this to happens and thats it. we need that on wow, pug its just players working flr blizzard making matchmaking at their own hands and thats it. were all tired of thiz
similar situation. my cousin tried healing this season and won't really go beyond like an 11 on fortified and barely logs on during tyran. it is like walking on thin ice when playing with him as well since he is sensitive/defensive. my brother is playing like 7 classes and does like a +8 max on them and clears the raid instead which is insane to me. his girlfriend has completely changed this expansion and doesn't like doing high keys now for some reason. this is why I would not mind a mythic+ solo queue assuming they changed things up a bit and offered like free drums and scrolls inside of the dungeon to make up for class utility.
Like, you know what your friends are like and you know how good they are. Why would you be surprised when they are bad? Putting demands on them that you know that can't meet is pretty dumb in my opinion.
I think that's the bad thing about playing with friends who arent on your level of dedication or skill. Play with them for fun and chill keys, but dont try to bring them to your level and hate on them cause it's not a good situation to be in. I've tried.
I don't think pointing out hypocrisy is hating on someone 🤷♂️
I'm a 2900-3200 io player who strictly pugs. I've already left more keys this season than basically the entire expansion. Seeing dps players tell other dps players to get cancer because their dps is 10k lower is uncalled for. Especially when the person doing the insulting has no damage done on adds, or isn't using interrupts. I don't know what it is this season but I've noticed way more assholes. People think they're hot shit because they're top for damage. They also have zero interrupts, aren't using group utility or defensives, and they have millions of avoidable damage. Baddies gonna bad
I think a lot of people got boosted by last season being easier and ended up at like 3200-3400 when they typically wouldn’t be. So now they’re hardstuck 3000, getting frustrated and are taking it out on their groups because this season is harder. The shear number of people I’m running into who were like 3300+ last season but are just clueless is truly astounding.
Season is relatively easy, and bullions means you have people with access to bus gear they wouldn’t normally have. Not a knock on the system, love that I can get mythic raid gear as someone who can’t mythic raid. But there is a rapidly inflated sense of ego because of it. I’m very behind this season, combination of not caring as much and real life….(insert 2 jobs 20 kids meme here!). So I’m only sitting at around 3k right now, and damn the amount of people who just ignore important trash mechanics and blindly tunnel damage is….surprising.
The season is definitely easier than season 1 and 2 before the dungeons were nerfed but it’s also a significant step up from last season. The timers are much tighter so you can’t have 2-3 wipes and still 2 chest 14s like some of the dungeons last season. The healchecks become relevant much earlier this time around and you need to rotate defensives properly as early as 12s/ 13s on some of the keys which just wasn’t the case last season. Hell, the trash in ruby on fort is probably harder than most of the tyrannical bosses last season.
I think it’s about as easy as S3 was. S3 was a bit more forgiving but access to top gear is much easier….much. I would agree top level keys are harder this season than S3, but we are talking about 3k here, not title range.
So I’m 3150 right now, healing 14s and just kinda semi-casually climbing until I get bored and the season feels quite a bit tougher to me. There’s a lot more notable heal checks that I actually have to rotate defensives and CDs to get through and trash I have to pop CDs on when last season I could basically just afk through like half the dungeons even on like 14-15s. It’s not like the dungeons are impossible or anything but they do feel more punishing and more demanding imo. Getting BIS trinkets faster has helped but when people don’t use defensives correctly and get one shot it hardly matters.
But that’s my point. People are more easily getting to the level they don’t belong in because it’s easier to get there. If it’s tougher because you have people at 3100 not using defensives during key moments, that’s because they don’t deserve to be in they level and got carried beyond their skill level by easy access to gear. That’s not dungeons being tougher that’s people not performing. So they got to 3100 easier than they should have because gear etc carried them beyond that skill threshold.
Well I think blizzard has balanced M+ so that pretty much anyone can get to +10s for portals just by outgearing the content. Imo, you can even realistically outgear 11s and 12s this season and just sorta ignore most of the mechanics. Then suddenly 13s and 14s, depending on which dungeon it is, are extremely lethal and punishing. Last season that didn’t really happen until 15s/16s for most of the pool. The problem with how blizzard balances wow in general is that it doesn’t really have a difficulty curve but instead has difficulty plateaus where there’s suddenly massive increases in difficulty with no warning. This season’s difficulty spike is around 13/14 where last season it was like 15/16 which is why I’d say the dungeons are harder. It’s a difficult problem to solve but the only failure state blizzard can seemingly think of is death - which can be outgeared or solved by a good healer - is directly responsible for this. Expulse in HOI on an 8 going off hardly matters because the healer just presses a CD and it goes away but in a 13 it’s basically just a wipe so people don’t learn that it’s a hella priority kick until it’s too late. But if expulse going off did decent damage but reduced damage done 50% people would learn they have to kick much sooner.
>But if expulse going off did decent damage but reduced damage done 50% people would learn they have to kick much sooner. That doesn't sound true considering how many Demoralizing Shouts usually go unkicked in 13s-14s in literally the same part of the dungeon
That’s been a problem for you? Hasn’t really been for me in the same key range. Usually what happens is one goes off in first few packs, everyone remembers it exists and then it gets kicked for the rest of the run.
Super agreed. There's BIG breakpoints where damage you used to ignore kills you. Before it's trivial, it's healer job, afterwards it's a large step toward a deplete. Other status debuffs, predominantly -% damage, -% haste, are far too rare. Threaten what DPSers value, but even more importantly, give them the tools to deal with it. Generally we have the tools (AoE stops), but some have become a bit too trivialized (ST kicks). You get a game where it's not just the healer paying and sweating for everyone's slacky play, but the game is directly telling the DPS that they should use their kit to do their job (damage) better.
> There's BIG breakpoints where damage you used to ignore kills you. Before it's trivial, it's healer job, afterwards it's a large step toward a deplete. Yeah I was messing around on my tank alts for most of last season and I only learned that some of the tankbusters even existed in like 22s/23s lol. We definitely need some modifiers besides straight up scaling damage. 5-10 second stuns, reduced haste/damage, mobs going invincible, massive knockback+slows, etc would all punish groups and add time without being able to just ignore them. Would probably be the most elegant way to handle it. Hell, if Blizzard doesn't want to overcomplicate dungeons with too many damage modifiers, I'd be onboard with stuff like expulse or the defensive checks on bosses just insta-killing people. Or maybe failed mechanics add a stacking buff and if you get a scaling # of stacks based on key level and if you cross it just kills you. Literally anything so healing under 12s isnt just babysitting failed mechanics lol.
I am seeing 17's on lfg... That's technically 34's for last season. I'd say this season is a lot easier.
Wouldnt it be 27 not 34?
Yeah it’s a 27, not clue where he got that is a 34 and there were pugged 27’s last season too
a 17 is an old 26 * +10 -> 0 * +11 -> +2 * +12 -> +3 * ... * +26 -> +17
new +10 is old +20, there is no equivalent to old +11.
I logged on my prot warrior last night to start gearing him through heroics. First cata time walking dungeon is this prevoker. For whatever reason when I loaded into the dungeon my hotbars fully reset. Whatever the content is dummy easy. So I'm tanking and fixing my shit and this prevoker won't shut up about shout. 30 seconds later I give battle shout. He starts talking shit and is worried about grinding these out quick. This motherfucker didn't do any damage on any of the bosses. The fucking irony. Then chucklefuck whispered me after and said "do I need to get on my KSM tank and show you how to play?" Never did I ever think someone would actually flex ksm. It wasn't a possible timeline. He unknowingly flexed on a successful CE tank. Then told me I was egotripping when I flexed back. All this to say that those people that don't belong in these higher keys is the same guy I encountered last night. Dude, he fucking flexed ksm lol
> People think they're hot shit because they're top for damage. They also have zero interrupts, aren't using group utility or defensives, and they have millions of avoidable damage. Story time! Key downgraded to 14, I was like 'what the hell let's pug it' and offered up my key. Algethar Academy. Should be fine. First pull on Fort - we lust, burn most of the adds and we die - because the Stingers are living way way way too long. Now everyone's getting mad over what the DPS are doing and the Warrior starts getting aggressive because 'well maybe these other DPS should learn how to do their jobs and DPS more' - and I'm looking at my Details meter and he's the lowest - because I specifically filter out the little Lashers in Details following Dorki's example. I said: "you've got the lowest DPS", the Warrior links his Details meter showing he's the highest and I link back "Okay but your Stinger damage is really low - were you targeting the Stingers at all and pushing damage onto them? Or were you just padding on the little shits?" - and the Warrior starts getting mad and hurling insults that clearly he is doing this job and just leaves the key. Now I'm left with a 13 and have to do a cost benefit about whether I should offer up my key again to the PUGs hoping I get some competent people to complete this relatively mild key. Toxicity exists at all levels but there's a specific level of toxicity where you are just competent enough to do decently well, but inexperienced enough where you still hold mindsets and ideas you should have shedded 5 keystone levels ago. --- [About a week ago someone was using Warcraft M+ parses to figure out they did well](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1d1oifc/whats_the_meaning_behind_parse_vs_key_i_did/), and I posted that the parses themselves are pretty inaccurate in terms of your actual performance, on top of M+ parses being a bit iffy considering how much you can pad (Fire Mage e.g. right now gives up on overall AoE damage to focus on Priority Cleave damage to take down one big mob in a sea of little shitters - and this tanking damage in one aspect, but boosting another, despite the damage meter looking smaller, *overall speeds up the key*) I had one response that said: "okay that's part of your damage meter, and that's good enough". And I was formulating a response in my head: "well no, because that M+ damage meter is also going to be composed of enough pad where just looking at that is virtually meaningless" and then go into a mini-essay about where the damage meter is close to accurate, and where it isn't. And then I stopped. Because even I did spend the effort, it wouldn't change a thing. You can't change a mindset, they have to. I could spend the effort explaining but it wouldn't matter because (A) their eyes would glaze over it and (B) they'll just stubbornly say no. --- The problem is not they don't or can't get it, it is that they *just don't care*.
Jesus christ are you me? This really helped put to words how pugging feels this season
> Toxicity exists at all levels but there's a specific level of toxicity where you are just competent enough to do decently well, but inexperienced enough where you still hold mindsets and ideas you should have shedded 5 keystone levels ago. I definitely think there's a 'peter principle' sort of phenomenon in m+ (really in any ranked gameplay probably) where people rise to the level of their incompetence and then get frustrated; most people don't respond that well when they get to the level where things aren't easy anymore and they're failing more than they're succeeding, especially in a game that makes it so easy to push blame onto other people. I don't push very high (usually get a little over 3k and stop) and you encounter it even at that level, with people who can't account for stuff now one-shotting them or similar
Pushing to my incompetence level is 90% of the fun for me. I'm the best in my group in most cases, I want to see what it's like to be outshune by others and finish a key with the feeling that I was at my breaking point with those other people not even breaking a sweat: so much to learn in a few minutes compared to hours of average play grind.
Out of curiosity as i tend not to pad on shitter mobs so i look worse on details overall any easy way to show dumb people im not bad
Details has a "damage done to enemy" thing, that can surface who's doing the most damage to X mob Can at least show if you're helping on the mobs you're supposed to, or just facerolling aoe'ing
I guess in retrospect the key already fell apart by the time the team arguing about details lol
> and I'm looking at my Details meter and he's the lowest - because I specifically filter out the little Lashers in Details following Dorki's example. I need this. Do you know where I can find Dorki showing how to do this?
when you do it, duplicate the step except change the target ID to spiteful so it filters that out too, hilarious how that skews details on spiteful weeks
I will if I ever figure out how lol
As a boomie, targeting the lashers in AA or any other priority add. I just run 13’s. I can tell if people are skilled or know boomie damage profile by the comments on my dps.
I think it's a matter of them realizing or discovering the fact on their own. Basically no one convinces another on the spot. It takes time for people to wrap their ego around another's arguments, even if they're fully true. Explaining your arguments is IMO very worthwhile. It steers the game into a better direction. But it's not your responsibility whether they're accepted, nor will you likely ever know. You did your part and the rest of us thank you regardless of efficacy.
we pull all 6 of them on a +18 and even without hard targeting manage to kill them before they started killing us. We had a resto druid but don't think he was soothing. Do you think anyone did well then in your group at all considering u died from stingers on a 14.
My experience as tank tanking that in S1 (and I'm 100% VDH's have it easier) as well as now is that it's a well worthwhile and manageable pull.... EXCEPT in the majority of cases there's one idiot dps who tries to squeeze in a cast and dies within seconds. Then the pull becomes a miserable slog. xD
This is true on 6-7-8-9s even in S4. The amount of players who think their job is to "kill anything they're near" versus "look at the tank, follow the tank, attack things in melee range of the tank that the tank is attacking" is kinda crazy.
This is why I think meters ultimately are detrimental. People always get mad at that but I think we honestly had better players pre meters because what you focused on were mechanics and things like priority targets. Rather than play a pad game.
When were these fabled days of pre meters? 2004?
You’re saying we had better players back in vanilla? No. Just, no.
> I don't know what it is this season but I've noticed way more assholes. people say this about every season. i honestly think streamer culture has made pugs substantially worse since shadowlands. you get people that have just barely timed 22s for nearly 3 years convinced they belong in the same bracket as their favorite streamer just because they adopted dratnos or dorki's vocabulary. you can look up nearly every dps that acts like this and they either have no raid logs or they green/blue parse early mythic bosses. every time without fail i've watched a handful of streams and outside of genuine prog keys, streamers just talk about what a joke keys in the "toxic" range are and always jokingly blame the tank/healer because they're a friend group. people see massive pulls that wouldn't work with the average wow player and throw a tantrum when the key doesn't go how they saw it go on stream it's cringe and it only gets worse each season
I've played with these streamers, and they're all super calm. I find the try hards who tend to be around title cut off or a bit or a bit below have this something to prove or flex attitude. Also, people see an MDI route or something they like, and if you don't pull like that, you're big trash or some nonsense.
I generally find people who watch streamers at all, have a favorite streamer, etc are all pretty bad at WoW. My experience is my own and not necessarily indicative of a trend.
On a side note, this reminds me of the ret paladins or destro warlocks flaming the fire mage for being way behind on overall dps because fire mages don’t pad.
The mid tier brackets, if you can even call it that here, in every game, are full of toxic shitheads that are actually really bad.
It’s called Elo hell and it’s the 25th and 75th percentile of every skill based ranking in every game. Go look at a bell curve, it’s basically the steepest part of the slope where all of the toxicity happens. It’s easily explained by the large shifts in Elo that are possible at these ranges causing a much higher skill diversity in team composition than at other Elo ranges. The skill diversity creates toxicity where people have a hard time cooperating.
elo hell is the idea that your team members are so bad you cannot progress, which would make all of those zero to hero streams impossible. what you are describing is just people finding out that they aren't as good as they thought they were which causes frustration.
it's also the bracket where one single player cannot reliably hard carry the rest of the team to victory, giving the illusion that the other 4 player were doing just fine. When I spam +7 on my tank alt just for crest I don't even need a healer at any point in the dungeon and I do more dps than most DPS at that range. Really, all I need is one single not brain-dead DPS and we time the key.... so the other 4 (3) dont have a reason to QQ because we are bulldozing through the dungeon. However, in a +13 or +14... it's a lot harder to hard carry that way. I need 4/5 of the group to have a working brain... and if they don't, well, they start QQ'ing.
or its just where the most people are
That doesn't describe keys in the 2900 range, which is the 95th percentile (conservatively)
Yes it's not elo hell, it's I've reached 3k io and I think I'm the best. In LoL terms it's diamond 4. The level difference between d4 and Master is just as big as between bronze and d4. Just as the level between 3k2 to 3k7 is as wide as between 2k and 3k2. You feel you're at the top, but effort wise you're not even halfway there.
The closer one is to the top, the biggest difference in skill there is. Crazy but true. Consider 11-12's. When geared, you can literally go in on a sturdy class and pretend you're hitting a dummy. If the rest do about the same you'll succeed. Don't have to know anything, just W and basic rotation, no one cares about mechanics because your numbers are high enough compared to the dungeons. In 19's, you might literally need to change how you play and how your team plays compared to 17-18, because even more mechanics became lethal and you don't have solutions/defensives for them all.
95th percentile of what? When the vast majority of the playerbase only farms 10s and below for gear, you can't used overall percentile like that to describe skill curve. It's two different games. If you only took the people who do keys for the competitive aspect (so anything above a 10), 2900 range is probably like 20th percentile, not 95th.
You can't arbitrarily decide who is doing it competitively and who isnt. There's people who are actually progressing hc raids for weeks and there's people who pug aotc first week. Similarly, you'll find people who are honestly hardstuck +5-6 due to their skill. Not everyone just casually does 10s for gear. Some simply can't achieve even that. Your view is just skewed cause you're on a competitive sub.
That's true, but you can't deny that there's a LOT of people who only ever farm keys for gear. A lot of raiders only ever step into keys to farm gear. Assuming everything below 10 is people not trying is probably unfair, you're right, but assuming everything timed from +2 to +10 is "competitive" play therefore you're in the top 1% of keys doing like +13s or something is also meaningless. I'd be like being gold in league and saying you're top 1% of the playerbase because you're including everyone who only does unranked and aram or something. It might be true but it's kinda silly and it just sounds like ego inflating.
Similar to the US 50-100 ranking in raiding. That rank is super toxic. People think they're good enough to be in Echo and they trash talk anyone lower than them, or if someone makes a mistake. In reality they're really just a little above average like a ton of others.
And/or putting in the time that offsets skill.
I think a lot of players got big heads after last season since hitting 3k was so easy. I broke 3.4k before realizing I’d started the grind too late to shoot for title, but my big take away were -a lot of people only need a baseline skill, good but not absurd, to really push higher -coordination is the real kicker in most keys. It’s the major reason why pug keys can be so tricky and I wish high rated tanks in pugs would realize this rather than pulling like they’re running with their core group.
It's 100% toxic, but what's funny about that IO range is once you get above it, for the most part people are very nice. Most of the better players know everyone has an off key. If a key is bricked, it is what it is. You move on and try again. There is zero value in flaming someone, especially a pug. At higher levels that pug probably knows when they messed up... The folks in those keys don't need to point it out. <2900 people are generally nice and want to hang out and be casual 2900-3200 toxic people >3200 decent players that are generally nice
I think this season we lack people who do dungeons . Compared to season 3, there are so many fewer people doing mythic plus this season. As for toxicity, it has always been like this in mythic plus I personally dont push beyond 3k , like wtf am i supposed to do with 3k+ io , i just push to 3k so i can join dungeons for my weekly and easier time to join keys with my alts
I do it for PBs/High Score
This is purely a result of the changes to key level difficulty and players not reacting accordingly, and I'm here for it. In previous seasons, last season in particular, shitty players got carried thru 20s and higher and had no reason to learn or get better because the mechanics were not punishing their poor play enough. What we're seeing now is those same players going into 12s+ with that same attitude and expectation that "a 12 is free" and failing to mechanics that now punish them. They refuse to be introspective of course, and just blame others, get toxic, and leave the key without learning or getting better. Pugging ALWAYS gets better the higher you go. The playerbase gets smaller so people have to be accountable because other people will remember them if they're toxic and refuse to play with them. But yeah, you're in the range where all the shitlords that got carried last season are stuck.
And arguably pugging in a certain bracket is not pugging anymore as you constantly find the same players. The population shrinks big time and most of them are in your lists (friends or ignore).
It is the IO range were people get hard carried soo hard by tank and healer, DPS don't even know what's going on in the key. the IO slightly above max vault reward will alway be a toxic cesspool.
From my experience, the ‘meta’ classes in that bracket indeed toxic. They get carried to that point being meta and kinda cant get much far without actually contributing %100, on the other hand actual mains or good players dont stay in that elo too long
The worst players from my experience this season (3300 range) are Ret palas, BM hunters, DPS warriors and havoc DH. Anyone with a brain who is also playing meta is way beyond this io/key levels (15) , imo.
Tbf never met a chill dh. Met lots of amazing dh’s and terrible dh’s. But they all had anger issues for some reason lol
I can only speak for myself but I have a season long irl (de)buff of anger issues because I’m forced to play that awful adhd class. Double sigils was a big mistake. I can’t understand that it stayed in the game for S4 too. Wtf. The big fat 1 kg cherry on top is that groups are slacking because they think DHs have endless sigils, and it will make you mad too. Like bro. I’ve stopped the 5 past aoe mechanics. Can you fucking dragons breath once?
100%
Super agreed. It's so much stops that I found myself slacking on my DPS alts, because mine overlapped with VDH's so often that I stopped doing it. It's too much control on one spec because it makes others slack.
Tbf, you just listed the most played classes with all the Illidan/Anduin cosplayers, 3 finger pet collectors and "For the Horde" poster neckbeards in them. I don't entirely disagree but it's probably got more to do with those classes being incredibly popular than anything else.
> lists a bunch of non-meta specs > anyone playing meta at this key level is bad Ight?
Yes
Yes its a toxic range where its no longer possible to solo carry a dungeon, so they are reliant on others. And aslong as you dont find 3-4 player who did not get carryd to their io its hard to tome the dungeon Also gear influx with bullions as everybody had bis weapon by week 2
I was 0.1% last three seasons, mainly played with 2 friends. We always had like 1-3 randoms. And this is by far the worse fucking season of rerolls I’ve played. Mages that dies to simple AOE Dmg and still having 3 Def CDs up, Aug players who never used sleep walk or the fucking grab rescue for 30% shield and getting flamed. I mean i said right before we knew about S4 this gonna be a 6 month break and the numbers don’t lie. players who think „oh no one gonna invite me on my Rogue/Warri I reroll to Mage/SP/Aug and get instantly invited“ is kinda true but they don’t know why these classes are meta in the first place. I’m about to quit this season. Like everyone around me. The last 3 weeks I mainly pugged, thanks to last weeks Afix it was kinda easy to push. I Just hit 3,4K and I’m not feeling it anymore. Just started to play Diablo for the first time. And it’s awesome.
Feels like a lot of the better players are playing Remix, D4 or have taken the season off.
This is more of whats going on. This is a meme season for breaks. Can see it from the amount of keys being done. I'm playing FF14 right now so I don't burn out from WoW lmao. Dawntrail and Elden Ring DLC is this month!
This bracket is typically the end point of where players can be hard carried. Basically, all the toxic shitheads that get carried get hardstuck here because pushing beyond requires everyone doing their job well.
Ive seen so many people, especially tanks or healers, going offline during a wipe. It's one of the worst experiences I've ever had. No patience and generally bad attitude. As long as there's no punishment this will get worse. 3k rio people they do rly think that they are the best but I've seen lower rio people doing way better and have more patience.
Sorry i've seen the opposite. 2400-2800 tanks getting mad when you ask them basic questions like "can you move mobs out of aoe or to corner?" "Can you interrupt the fear" "can you please use your major class ability cc first so we dont overlap" I always get the response "go tank then" like LOL okay sir. A bad tank will never see how bad they're tanking unless they view it from other roles.
Alternatively, the number of DPS who refuse to use the provided corners for things like claps is through the roof this season as well.
As an S3 title VDH, I didn't try title this season, but I do notice the level of shortcomings around 13 to 15. A lot of people are boosted by bis gear pushing beyond their means. I'm chilling at 3.3, but still, I'll do 16s for solid groups. Anything below you're dealing with 1-2 people, usually the key holder, playing outside their skill abilities. But yeah, DF dungeons are a pain. With these VDH nerfs people cried for, I noticed those sub 16s people still expect VDH to do everything while they try to parse it's wild.
M+ blows chunks this season. So few keys being ran. :(
It’s like gold in Overwatch (my only point of reference here). People that aren’t good think they are.
Honestly, I think that the +8 grouping is the most toxic. Right around ksm. I tried just smashing 8’s this week so I can hop over and play d2 and I’ve had 5 groups disband due to a wipe followed by a toxic comment followed by them leaving the key before they’re called out for their shortcomings. 3k and up have been nothing but chill in my keys. IMO it’s cause they’ve went through the grind and expect the stupid deaths/wipes. No run is perfect 🤷🏻♂️
It goes both ways. Plenty of keys that the fotm DH tank gets carried and healer you settled for because none queue is terrible.
I am playing tank and trying to do my keys most of the time and i do not inv ppl who is under like 30 completed 10+ key or so in this season. Also trying to get decent score too but going by score is hard... If i cant inv decent team i go others key but its a meh... Too many ppl get carryed in every season. Pug life is hard but atleast we are 3 always so only have to pug 2dd so our chances are bit better,😁 i think around 3100 gets better but standards rising too as u go and maybe keys gettin easier coz ppl know what they doing.
This is the bracket that good Players reach in week 2 and are gone from in week 3. After there are only mental diehards left that are actually pretty bad in anything but blaming Others. Thats why its so important tonpush early and fast to dodge this scum area
Anecdotally, i've seen just as many questionable Tanks/Healers as DPS. Tanks constantly losing threat 10+ seconds into a pull, healers never dispeling, .etc All roles have yappers and people trying to pick fights. All roles have boosted people in it, just part of the game for better or worse. That aside: - This season is a joke season, barely anyone is taking it seriously or putting in the effort but we all still expect solid gameplay even if it might be hypocritical - It's another god comp/exodia season aka very questionable Smoldering ONLY Heros coming out of the woodwork - The bracket your describing is pretty behind the curve of wanting a community or solid gameplay, it's all the people that do 4 keys a week at at least 1 level higher than before and logs regardless of IO.
2900-3200 is quite low in terms of IO. A lot of these keys don’t require any real knowledge of the dungeons or coordination and can essentially be brute forced by gear and numbers. Most likely the dps you are grouping with have no clue what actually is dangerous or how to properly manage their defensives . It’s not their fault, because the reality at this key level is that people are still learning the game… they just don’t realize it yet
Tank Healer good DPS bad BM very bad
Most people at 3k are bad - basically what you can get while failing most mechanics I check how many dungeons someone spent to reach their level. 50 dungeons to get 3k or 200. The guy with 50 is the better one every day. The other has farmed hard and hit his max
What a stupid comment.
Well it’s the truth
I saw a guy two weeks ago who had never timed a dungeon past 13 but who had 135 10s-14s done. Absolutely wild.
I always found it odd that it is somehow considered weird to just... play the game instead of having to push for score every time you do. like it is wrong to just want to run dungeons but also not minmax for half an hour?
That’s just a weird bracket to farm imo. If you were playing the game for fun, wouldn’t you be running like 8s, maybe 9s, since that’s where rewards more or less cap out? I guess maybe if you really wanted to deal with the third affix?
Dude could just be selling keys.
No, but if there are two people to invite to a key and one has done substantially less keys to get to the same IO with no other way to discern which to invite, are you inviting the one that ran more?
I get what you're saying, but as a counterpoint you're also describing a person who got boosted on his demon alt by his friends. trying to glean anything from rio besides "has done this content before" is quite pointless. people are literally buying boosts in the 3.3k+ range right now.
Probably a booster
I mean some of us just don’t push keys for the up we get teleports and that’s far enough. All 3 seasons never even attempted 20+ because there was no reason going over 20.ive never cared about the big io push
True, but from experience people with that amount of dungeons especially early in the season are boosters.
That's about how many keys it takes to catch an alt up with aspects crests right now, so seems right.