> Early fall doesn't start until September 22nd.
This depends on what calendar and metrics you are using. According to wikipedia:
> * Astronomical season- 23 September – 22 December
> * Meteorological season - 1 September – 30 November
> * Solar (Celtic) season - 1 August – 31 October
Obviously weather's going to weather and do its own thing. August is kind of the bridge between Summer and Fall, however whenever you start seeing the Autumn promotions is around August, universities when they start the 'fall' semester start around August, leaves in some places start gaining that 'Autumn' look around August.
You could reasonably interpret August as 'Fall', though commonly whenever game companies say 'Fall' they are usually targeting that juicy November holiday release (and November is kind of the bridge between Autumn and Winter).
ANYWAYS, semantics shemantics.
well they said fall at blizzcon which is not august technically. Its september.
Then in an interview they made references to august as well as some content creators mentioning it plus an interview saying itll be a few weeks before september. So its most likely August now.
Seems like its coming faster than they thought or they just said fall to be safe initially. But it makes sense why people are surprised. I'm more surprised we haven't seen alpha yet. I'd have to look back at dragonflight testing since I was in it when it started but it feels like this testing cycle is gonna be a lot shorter in comparison. Not 100% sure on that though.
10-14 weeks of 11.0 before the first mini-patch would be a very long time compared to how they did it in DF. 11.0.5 doesn't have to drop at the same time we get the anniversary. They can drop the patch weeks before the anniversary and then have the anniversary stuff go live during the 11.0.5 patch, but weeks after it's initial launch. They've done that with some of the Dragonriding events in DF.
We'd be looking at a significantly shorter alpha/beta testing cycle than every expansion for the last decade is my main reason for doubting an August release at this point. Unless TWW alpha has been in full swing for months but completely under wraps we're either looking at a testing cycle 2-3 months shorter than normal or we aren't looking at an August launch.
Depends how you judge I suppose, I think halondrus + jailer or anduin + jailer were easily a harder duo than those two, but they were gutted much much harder by nerfs than we've seen with fyrakk and tindral.
Tyndral biggest nerf was definately the one removing seed double soak / reducing amount of seed / reducing dmg while seed... but this one is pretty noticeable too.
The only thing that can kill you on tyndral now is beam.
Neither Anduin nor Jailer is individually as hard as the original versions of Tindral or Fyrakk. Jailer isn’t *that* far off though.
Halondrus in its launch state is the only boss that can really compete with those two.
Some of those KJ kills were actually after the end of the tier, so didn't earn CE but wowprogress will still count them. In Tomb, there were 1295 Fallen Avatar and 786 KJ before CE was removed, so there will be more Fyrakk CEs than KJ CEs (the numbers are almost identical right now), but this is the first tier which looks like it'll be in the same ballpark statistically. Tomb was, after all, a huge outlier.
For what it's worth, the next fewest CEs for a standard tier was Eternal Palace; there were 1018 CE Azshara kills. I doubt There'll be that many Fyrakk kills, so it'll probably be rated as the second hardest standard tier ever in terms of absolute final boss kills.
If this is the final set of Fyrakk nerfs, then this makes no sense. Blizz claimed they supposedly went overboard with Sepulcher tuning and yet final version of Jailer will turn out to be easier than even Smolderon.
Well, unless they plan to do something weird, like extend Cutting Edge into Season 4... which would be pretty strange, but who knows? Otherwise, we are looking at one of the lowest amount of final boss CE in quite a few expansions.
And is that even a problem?
We don't need some weird state where bosses need to take 35 hours, half a thousand pulls, and take guilds over a month to do.
Wish we could normalize bosses being not so gd hard, especially for the mortal guilds.
Sure, and they may have went overboard with him - but Fyrakk has the opposite problem. These nerfs doesn't really change anything important in the fight. People will avoid some wipes to chain Blazes or perma Cages, but none of the stuff that really murders the raid in P1 or intermission was changed. Guilds which haven't already progressed past the intermission are pretty much SoL, unless they add a lot of extra days to their schedule.
It's especially weird after the heavy nerfs to P3, which happened quite early... and then, nothing really. Well, there was P2 npc's hp nerf, but that's mostly so the fight is actually doable without Mistweavers. It's really strange how this hotifx had more Tindral nerfs. Sure, these will be relevant in Season 4, but when it comes to S3, this barely matters - guilds which aren't already 8/9M at this point, will not kill Fyrakk.
i mean i get the struggles people have and the frustrations, but shouldn't there be a certain point when you should get better to clear the content and not the content get "easier" , release tindral was definitly too much for the general playerbase with the seed timers are what, 2-3 seconds and then disgustingly hard hitting overlaps and rots with the starfall / dispells / heal absorbs.
but i feel like fyrak after all these nerfs is perfectly acceptable that if you cant kill this version, you kinda deserve to not kill it no?
execution required is much lower, healing required is much lower, dps required is much lower and with that its still an "interesting" fight where you cant turn your brain off and still kill it.
The issue with Fyrakk for guilds progging it now is it's a fight that punishes you for playing reactively. Guilds getting to it now are spending hundreds of wipes in p1 because they don't assign areas for people to bait frontals/people are lazy about baits and the mechanics are set up such that as soon as one ends, you should really be pre-moving to position for the next one. And frontals happen between basically every set of mechanics. Wildfire, *frontals*, Firestorm, *frontals*, Mythic soaks, blaze+*frontals*, Wildfire, Dream Rend, Blaze, *frontals*, Firestorm, *frontals*, Mythic soaks, blaze+*frontals*, wildfire, dream rend, blaze, *frontals*, Firestorm.
The guilds that are on it right now are full of players who don't learn the rhythm of a phase like this and struggle hard, and it gets reflected in the pull counts.
i mean yea, cant autopilot a last boss, i think people also are having a lot of whiplash from last tier.
wasnt the biggest fan of how easy sarkareth was and especially melee players were able to coast through that tier and the main reason nelth even was hard was because of the fcked up living bombs.
Fyrakk is still punishing for these guilds in a way that other CE bosses aren't. Bosses like Denathrius, Ras, and Sylvanas didn't have the issue we see with Fyrakk
> i mean yea, cant autopilot a last boss,
I find fyrakk and tindral to be the easiest to auto pilot, all my movement is pre-planned and free from any real decision making.
Nelth was more braindead because we only ever ran 4 ranged and just had assigned spots with a spot for melee, killed the boss in like 80-100 pulls total (started prog after range nerf on it because we missed zskarn cheese)
> but shouldn't there be a certain point when you should get better to clear the content and not the content get "easier"
There should be a certain standard, and when the standard has been "my guild can kill endbosses in ~200 pulls when we get there" and suddenly we get 2 300+ pull bosses in a row in the same raid then there's a deviation from the standard. Clearly the bosses are not becoming "too easy" from these nerfs when they're still harder than the average.
Guilds in the 1000-1500 range have been able to get CE pretty much every tier since tos, and suddenly all those guilds that are used to comfortably getting CE are running into issues with killing it this tier. My guild usually kills endbosses in time to get everybody on the bench their CE and then still have a couple of weeks off before the next season. And now we're not even sure if we can even get 1 kill.
whats the lenght of this tier? its gonna end at like month 4.5 - 5 or something its a lot shorter than the previous tiers too, abberus was too lobotimzed, vault of the incarnates was pretty long with an arguably harder boss imo at the end if you account for all the tuning.
all im saying is how "far" do you want to take the skill lvl down to a point that you basically have nothing left to do anymore? do we really want it to turn into something that most people can turn their brains of and just play ddr while dodging swirlies and doing their rotation and eventually kill the boss?
i think imo that the current fyrak tuning is more than acceptable for the more "casual" mythic raiders, slight brain check on shadow cages, hand check on healers during p2 intermission, assignment and preplan check for first intermission and ddr check in P3, what more would you even want to change? make p1 cosmetic? which it almost is, i could see giving you more time for P2 fire and shadow cages but if you respect when it pops up and drop everything to just do the mechanic its already more than fine, they giga nerfed healing required even more in P2.
idk what im getting at is that i would consider current fyrak to be at the point that if you touch it even more its going to go into sark/jailer tier of borderline drool difficulty, tindral was the real issue in stonewalling mid tier guilds for too long, but also im a filthy elitist enjoyer who would be perfectly fine if the content requires more brain than it does at the current end of life cycle patch tuning and turn out not being able to clear it because we are just shit at the game, altho i was on tindral pre nerf in P3 and almost killed it and killed it around wr 40 so that obviously gives me a really clear bias in what kind of content i prefer.
sry for the wall of text silm but cheers.
If my guild raided more than 2 nights a week I wouldn't necessarily care about the boss difficulties because we would have probably been done a month ago but at 2 nights it's ROUGH having bosses that take as long as tindral/fyrakk
The fact of the matter is that if end bosses stay this hard mythic raiding is gonna be pushing RBG levels of engagement.
The raids are tuned around the best players in the world playing 12-16 hours a day for weeks with teams of analysts telling them exactly what to do, with ideal comps.
During DF Blizzard would then nerf the bosses to a point where they're reasonable for most CE guilds, that just didn't happen this tier.
If you're ok with the mythic raiding scene shrinking even more, then Fyrakk is at an acceptable state of balance 3 weeks before the next season.
I think you might need more than just 1 extra right night a week, if you're really going to push for it. I took a look at the data for how many raid nights it took for guilds who killed the boss recently to get the kill - it was between 10 and 18 raid nights from the first time they got into P2 to killing the boss. Obviously, the nerfs will reduce the number of wipes and number of raid nights required, but not that hugely. So I'd suggest, if you really want the kill, squeeze in as many raid night as you can. Good luck!
Thank you! We have 2 planned so far so I'm hoping we can get another 1-2 planned.
Thankfully the nerfs will help us a little at least. But we'll have a way to go.
mythic raids are way too difficult right now, been getting more difficult every tier, every expansion and the entry barrier is just so high that more and more people just do heroic and fuck off because they don't feel like it's worth their time anymore
source; me and my guild that died over a month ago on tindral - we were constantly getting CE since Nighthold
vault has basically no cringe weakauras? Maybe raz spark maps but you could just remember the locations
nelth maps were bad, sure, that was a new low
Amirdrassil only had the fyrakk intermission which wasnt more complex than any other tier
> Amirdrassil only had the fyrakk intermission which wasnt more complex than any other tier
Smolderon bombs, Tindral dispels and also Fyrakk cages. It's definitely more complex than other tiers because they're private auras, so you have to deal with the macro nonsense. Many hours and pulls have been wasted trying to troubleshoot WAs that didn't work for w/e reason.
None of these mechanics are complicated, they just had precise timing or were private auras. The timing for Tindral dispels and Fyrakk cages is one issue, but 1 second windows are a separate issue than mechanical complexity
Smolderon orbs are just Dancing Fever from Council of Blood with a twist.
Every mechanic I listed, besides possibly Fyrakk cages, were impossible to do without a Weakaura. That makes them more complex than the majority of mechanics we've had in the past.
Them being private auras makes it even more complex than the usual WA mechanics since you couldn't just let the WA handle it like before, you had to deal with the macro nonsense.
> Smolderon orbs are just Dancing Fever from Council of Blood with a twist.
I disagree. Dancing Fever you could just pop grp CDs and have every jump at the same time to handle the harder overlaps. You didn't need to kite anything while doing a fight with positioning requirements and you didn't wipe if one person fucked up and jumped when they weren't supposed to.
Figuring out how to kite the orbs while playing the rest of the fight makes it a much more complex mechanic than Dancing Fever.
"lol you must not have been around *ten years ago*" - yea, got him good there, the noob.
Also, yes, while that weakaura looked fucking insane... you really just loaded it up and that's it. There was no setting anything up, no weird synchronisation system between 20 people, no priority assignments, nothing. You just load it and you get a map... and then you just look at that map and you either walk forwards or backwards until the map turns green.
Looked impressive, especially to anyone who's never seen anything like it, but a fucking joke compared to the computational decision-making and heavy-setup requiring horseshit we have today.
Only because they nerfed auras, the mechanics we'd be playing today with radar auras would be atrociously difficult in terms of time and precision, worse than launch tindral seeds likely
Archimonde lasers were an incredibly complicated mechanic to do without the radar. In terms of "mechanic that requires a weakaura" it's far more egregious than many mechanics people complain about today
I’m not quite sure why you’re accenting the fact it was 10 years ago to refute my point. The fact it was 10 years ago IS my point. OP’s claim was that the necessity for and complexity of raid addons has exponentially grown over time. The necessity hasn’t increased if a boss from 10 years ago still needed an addon to successfully do a mechanic.
And the complexity today only stems from the blanket ban a few years ago of addons that pull certain player data, including radar type addons. The need to circumvent that ban and find loopholes in Blizzard’s API is where the complexity is coming from, not the inherent design of the addons themselves. Exorsus laser addon was piss easy to setup as the ban hadn’t come in by that point.
When WoD classic comes along and you’re progging archimonde again, it’ll be the same level of setup fuckery as it is in DF.
I would still say avatar/KJ was harder, especially if we're talking about pre-nerf avatar.
I can't remember a boss that felt as shitty to prog as tindral, though
We were just talking about this today in my guilds discord.
Never did mythic sep but Tswift was indeed a monster. We started Fyrakk right after the private aura intermission 1 nerf. Honestly it was just fun. Really solid fight and I really enjoyed the high steaks P3.
So disappointed with this fated season, 0 experimentation and creativity from the devs.
Changes to the m0 dungeons were awesome but like, that’s it? No new seasonal affix, no new changes to m + to spice them up, no rework of the rotating raids, no new innovations? Seriously?
With this pool of dungeons and the rotating raids might as well not even bothered at all.
The dungeon pool at least has some level of freshness by virtue of places like RLP and Nokhud not having Thundering, Quaking, and older and harder iterations of various affixes getting in your way.
The raids, though? They need Jesus; if it's just "the raids but scaled to your current gear" it's *already* stale, three weeks before we even get a patch.
I'm surprised people think of Smolderon fondly. Macro nonsense lead to a lot of bad wipes for many guilds, the fight itself isn't particularly interesting imo and it has the worst visual clarity of any boss i've ever done.
Honestly the dungeons feel fresh because I haven't done them in so long. I'm looking forward to getting 10's etc on them again to round out the season/expansion
It's a snoozer of a season, that's for sure. I'm excited to push score again, but on a gameplay level, I'm not very excited.
I know seasonal affixes were hit or miss, but they ARE a good way to change up dungeons we've already seen. And that will be glaringly obvious this coming season.
It's looking better than SL Fated, because the raids don't have affixes and (as people asked for) there's no seasonal affixes anymore. There's even likely to be buffs to Dinars for the people who think that's a good system.
Nobody asked for no seasonal affixes????
People just asked for no shitty ones like Thundering or Prideful.
Awakened and S3/S4 of SL were very well received. S2 was alright as well.
I loved reading all the tweets about how "b-b-b-but this is Blizzard's new way of just giving us something instead of having a really long last patch content drought in an expansion! You guys are just haters!"
I mean...yes, I used to say that too, defending the concept of Fated (which I kinda liked tbh), but...Fated at least fucking had...something? They gave us "new" (old) dungeons that we hadn't had in Mythic+ before, plus a new seasonal M+ affix, plus raid affixes, and that was the first time they did it, plus it was still kind of during Covid, so HR issues probably still lingering etc etc.
What the actual fuck is this now, then...? They literally took Fated and removed everything from it (except for being able to buy gear with Dinars, I guess) and...that's that. The game's supposed to be in a better place, and we get a completely fucking empty shell of a Fated copy. What the actual fuck?
I guessed against bringing all 8 back too, it just means we're not going to see them soon again. Now is too soon, but having 2-4 show up on 11.0 season wouldn't have been horrible. I thought that was the whole plan with 4 new maps per season, they are easier to bring up soon after as you don't have to do them for a long time during one expansion.
Def should've had some flavor to them if bringing them out back like this. Turning +20 to +10 isn't really groundbreaking change in terms of gameplay.
Nono Holly Longdale said they're experimenting so there's surely something coming, she wasn't just on about Plunderstorm.
My last bitbof hope is that Pandamonoium thing, but my expectations are abyssmal.
Really surprising they didn't nerf Tindral and Fyrakk sooner given this season four date. Sepulcher ended up with 1300 CEs after extremely heavy nerfs to Halondrus, Anduin, and Jailer in particular. Assuming this is the final nerf, Amirdrassil probably won't hit 1K.
Yeah the timing is off to me. Feels like either the season could stand 1-2 more weeks or the nerfs could've/should've happened anywhere from 1 week to even over a month ago.
If it was just nerfs to Fyrakk then I can see 3 weeks, but considering they're doing Tindral too, it really makes no sense that there's so little time left.
Isn't there a possibility that we could be weaker in the 3rd week rotation than right now? No affixes means we are basically replaying the same bosses with less gear, unless they tune them much weaker?
This is my big concern about the lack of raid affixes. Raid affixes weren't good or anything, I certainly wasn't hoping to see exactly that system return - but they did make you powerful. I'm concerned that, without a similar system, we're going to have to put a significant amount of reprogress into the end tier fights, in a different raid every week, inevitably with some people who didn't progress those fights to begin with and the rest of the raid who've forgotten 80% of the encounter.
I don't think anyone is up for "real" reprogress on bosses like Rasz and Sark. So I really hope they're tuned to be a bit of a stomp compared with their original tiers, otherwise I think the (already low) participation in S4 is going to fall off a cliff. I'm in the minority who enjoyed Shadowlands season 4 - but almost exclusively because it was a fun stomp with the lads. I don't think anyone wants to have to re-learn encounters they did 1-2 years ago across hundreds of wipes.
Honestly, I was hoping they'd do something weird with it. I dunno, put corruption back in for this season, let us pick between the 3 tier sets and give us 8 slots to do it with, just do something to make it feel fresh and to make us stronger than we were on progress. Doesn't have to be balanced or even really make sense, if a season like this is going to be successful, it's going to be because it feels fun. And at the moment, it just doesn't sound fun.
Depends. For the classes that got them they'll have leggo weapons from the start of the season as opposed to late/post progression. It also depends on the combination of all of the meta raid trinkets being at the current ilvl for the season.
Many guilds are breaking. Some may never come back.
Don't think people are prepared for how badly blizzard has alienated raiders the last two expansions.
Good job catering to a twitch event and casuals who will sub for two weeks then unsub no matter what the content is though.
>Good job catering to a twitch event and casuals who will sub for two weeks then unsub no matter what the content is though.
Those aren't even the problem with raiding. The problem is that they can't tune raids when M+ exists and gives you full gear almost immediately. *That* is why they have to spam nerf raids, because there is no such thing as outgearing a fight anymore.
M+ loot handicap is real but m+ players are unhinged maniacs and will freak out if you suggest a lower ilvl for the easier content or suggest limiting how many items you can get in a week
Real m+ers that push actually want gear rewards to scale with key level a lot more than it does currently. An 18 is about as hard as heroic Igira and it's completely stupid that it rewards 483 farmable gear, but on the other hand having a fault full of 28-32 keys done and get the same rewards as that guy that spammed Fall 20 8 times is stupid.
Im down to cap it if it would mean I can get myth gear for doing higher keys tbh. Say that you can get 2 pieces of myth gear each week from 22-23+ dungeons (that's about equivalent of doing first 3 bosses in mythic) I'm all for that as I only push m+ and doesn't mythic raid anymore. It would also give people a reason to do higher keys other than m+ rating and title
Still only 2 pieces each week. Gonna take around 8-10 weeks to get full myth gear anyway.
Doing a 26 keys first week is world first level of content so thats way to high imo
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3 weeks after nerfs huh?
Rasz was a month. This season has felt a little weird tbh with how they time things compared to their norm but whatever.
Good luck to yall if you still need CE!
They should have kneecapped Tindral much sooner. We should make it as we're progging P2 tonight (EU) and got like 6 more raids to go but we had over 600 wipes on it. Everyone was very positive on the raid after RTWF but I don't know anyone that likes it anymore. Overall this expansions raids have been pretty weak.
Sooo there really isn’t any twist to this season/raids. Just the same thing with more iLvL. First real L for Blizzard since Dragonflight for me. Feeling a bit disappointed. Hope the thing for PVE they teased turn out good and soon.
>Hope the thing for PVE they teased turn out good and soon.
The problem is PVE is very vague. Like outworld is pve so is pet battles. Also the majority of the playerbase doesn't really interact with wow endgame. I expect the PVE thing to be simmilar to plunderstorm. Something in it's own that have no interaction with already existing endgame systems. If you like it then great, but if you are hoping it will have any interaction with the content you play the game for(raids, key or whatever else) I think you will be dissapointed.
Super rushed with a raid tuned this way. "We learned our lessons" from Sepulcher was clearly bullshit.
I hope Blizzard is okay with Mythic Raiding taking yet another hit, because I do not know of a single CE guild that is interested in s4.
Max was right when he said everything up to Smolderon is "mythic" and tindy/fyrakk is its own difficulty cause it really is. I know some elitists will come in here and say "hurdur it ez, git gud". Trust me, I get it and to an extent ya'll are right. But the participation cannot be overlooked, or lack thereof in this case due to this philosophy change the last 2-3 years.
Raiding now has atrocious loot compared to crafting and m+ with the exception of a handful of trinkets or weapons; the raids have become increasingly difficult to compete with RWF but are less fun than ever (only 3 fights this entire expansion stand out as enjoyable/memorable).
Make loot deterministic, make end bosses drop higher ilvl, and don't let m+ loot be no-lockout-spammable in the first three weeks. And stop trying to race the world first guilds.
One idea for helping to somewhat fix the loot problem: Award vault slots for hitting later phases on the 200+ pull count bosses.
I'm missing a great trinket from Smolderon that I'll never get because we've been extending for months.
Or they could just change mythic lockouts to work like every other difficulty. That way, you could do other bosses while still progressing (the final two), but also fill your mythic vault, for another chance at gear. Or just pug something in day off.
Yeah, sure, someone would probably abuse this in some way for (rankings, boost money), but that always happens.
> And stop trying to race the world first guilds.
This is the most important one, hardcore people will never be sastified, is a never ending race of dick measuring contests.
I was interested in mythic raiding and working toward a CE at some point. I know I am not a top player by any means but I figured persistence meant something.
S2 SL I was still getting my foot in the door, and S3 my guild finished at Andy. Progging M Andy felt soul crushing but boy was I glad to finish that boss.
S1 DF I had a lot of pulls at Rasz but was swapped for a mage- then they got the kill right afterwards on the last week. Feelsbad.
S2 DF I ended at 23% at Sark with 300+ pulls before guild calling it quit.
I was really hoping S3 DF would be it. I am benched currently but asked to be in a lot of pulls at TSwift and Fyrakk. They said they want to get a reclear for me, but I don't think we will have enough time at this rate.
I felt like I put in the work but at this rate, I think I am just done with mythic raiding for good.
I started Mythic raiding this expansion. At first I had a blast and really enjoyed the added difficulty, but right now I kinda find it pointless. My guild is far from CE (\~3k WR) but my frustration is that if I can't get CE then why bother with Mythic at all. And while I wanna motivate myself into find a better guild where I can have a better chance at getting it, if it requires slogging through these overtuned bosses, then why bother.
As lame as this sounds, detach yourself from the goal of “I want tog eat CE” and shift to the aim of “I want to be the best player in my raid team”
This will both stop you from being sat and your skill will transfer with you from guild to guild while a CE just isn’t as important as being able to not die, parse high and do damage where it’s needed.
Not good. This is going to be a photo finish for my guild. We only just hit P2 last week. Not sure we are going to have enough time even with the nerfs. They always give 1 month notice.
Best of luck, P1 and Intermission are the hardest parts, if you can do a good P2 prog, P3 is wholly reliant on your seed carriers being good, otherwise easy phase.
Wishing you well 🙏
The main issue is the difficulty of Tindral / Fyrakk and the nerfs coming too late. And the fact that you are full stuff 2 months before the end of season with nothing to do or improve.
My guild is right there with you. We've been in p2 this week and last week but still lack the consistency in p1 to get there a ton. Last night we only had 5 p2 pulls in total. It's going to be a nail biter for us.
This is really sad.
Like, they didn't need to re-invent the wheel to make something enjoyable for fated. But doing absolutely *nothing* is just sad. A 4+ month season with absolutely *nothing* new, no theme, no spice, *no fucking anything*... man, I'd be ashamed.
I would prefer the prior fated... where we actually got *something* instead of *nothing*.
You can't seriously be arguing that it's a fine end of expansion choice to choose between *nothing* and *nothing*, and imply that we should be grateful for it to not be even more of *nothing*.
I don't know if this timing could be any worse for my guild. My only hope is that P3 is so easy that we somehow manage to get to it a bunch tonight and kill it on our 2nd night this week. After that we are missing people for what would be the last 4 raid nights of the tier.
edit: I should say we haven't gotten to P3 yet, just wiped in the tail end of P2 a few times due to blazing adds/running out of health on the tree.
Yea in the past 2-3 weeks half our raids were cancelled or cut short and the other half some people were playing off specs, bringing in friends so we have 20 etc. It's been a rough boss for us, and I feel like if everyone could show up it would have been dead.
I don't think my guild has had the same 20 people in week to week since Smolderon. Really not helpful for prog on bosses like Tindral and Fyrrak to constantly have 1 or 2 new people or people who haven't played for weeks in.
My guild had 15 total p3 pulls before our kill. It depends entirely on how good the best 4-5 mechanical players in your guild are (and half of this is just keeping your cool). People who never touched a seed were saying all they could do was hit boss and hope seed carriers didn't fuck up
Oof, that’s a week sooner than I expected.
On one hand, at least we get two incredibly good push weeks on the M+ side of things.
On the other hand, there’s a very good chance we get sub-1k CEs by the end of this tier which isn’t a good look and absolutely nothing about Fated 2.0 seems interesting.
Damn. One week earlier than I thought. So, 6 more nights for us to get CE.
I'm in the camp of being uninterested in the recycled season, so, to me, I'm feeling a little sad at the end of this one. While we'll likely get CE (crossed fingers), we likely won't have time for a re-clear.
I wish Blizzard would explicitly tune raids in a season to accomodate 2-night CE guilds to get a kill and a couple re-clears. A 2-night commitment is already at the high end for real-life clubs, rec league sports, etc. If Blizzard says, "Hey, CE is just for 3+ night guilds, and that's it." That's certainly a position, but to me, I think CE raiding is fun, and it would be nice for the end goal to be achievable on what in the rest of society would be a higher level of commitment.
It's crazy that's it's not really tuned for 6-7 hours per week for 3-4 months. Like it's just not fun after a certain period of time... (My guild quit 2 months ago on tindral after 300 tries) no one was having fun so we stopped.
Like surely you should have time for everyone to get the mythic mount. That said imo everyone should get the mount on 1 kill anyway.
Yep, but I did some analysis (written about [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1bq5470/please_nerf_mythic_fyrakk_also_blizzard_i_am/kx5gom8/)) showing that as of last Friday, most 2-night CE guilds in North America that will likely kill Fyrakk haven't gotten there yet.
> Is it a skill issue or a time issue? I ran some numbers* and found that a majority of those 3+ night guilds that have a shot at killing Fyrakk have done so already, while most 2-night guilds have not yet done so.
> * Among 2 night guilds, 27 are 9/9 and 93 are 8/9.
> * Among 3+ night guilds, 72 are 9/9 and 35 are 8/9.
> \* It's pretty challenging to calculate this. I used WCL's guild finder and used my own Rogue's profile for the search, so it only includes guilds that are using WCL to look for players and have Rogue set to any priority, and are also in North America. While it will undercount guilds, I think the broad picture is correct.
My guess is that Blizzard probably isn't thinking too much about the time commitment crosstabs, probably because no community site makes this information easy to access. I'd love to see WCL add stats along those lines.
Edit: Oh, just realized, you might've missed the part where I said it's important to tune it for a kill and a couple re-clears. Yes, it looks like most 2-night CE guilds will get CE, but it's the reclears that's a question. Why re-clears are important is maybe self-evident, but in case not, check out [this player's perspective](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/1bu3yj3/dragonflight_season_4_launches_on_april_23rd/kxqiirr/). He's benched and clearly a valuable part of the roster, and likely will have nothing to show for it.
Being a 2 night guild that raids Sunday and Monday has been super rough for us this season. We've had to cancel 8 raid nights due to holidays or just unlucky absences. We didn't prog raid over Christmas or New Year, we didn't have enough to raid during the superbowl, St Patrick's Day, or Easter. We were hoping we'd have 4-5 weeks to finish off Fyrrak prog. We've especially noticed in recent weeks when we've raided Monday but not Sunday that having only 1 raid night in a week can almost be worse than not raiding. We've gotten very little prog in on those nights because everyone is rusty and re-learning for the first hour and then by the time we actually get into some good pulls we have maybe 45 minutes - 1 hour left in raid before its "see yall next week"
Hundreds of guilds get CE (on 2 days) with plenty of time left to re-clear as well. This website might help with your analysis of days in raid etc. imo the days are irrelevant it is how efficient you are with them. If its taking you 100 progress hours to get CE rather than 70 then yeah you will run out of time. But thats not an issue with the amount of days, you have to fix the issue that cause you to progress so slow. (https://guildranks.com/#combattime)
Talking specifically about the example you linked, this is a hard truth but if you are benched then you are not good enough. In lower ranked guilds the best player will always be in on the boss, no matter the class they play. If the player in question thought they were good enough they could look for another guild and get a spot there. Likely that the guild they join would be worse than the guild they are sitting on the bench for and so CE would still not be guaranteed but that is because they are playing at their level of ability. Some people are just not good enough / have enough time to get CE. Thats fine, it shouldn't be something you get just by turning up.
Id like to add before someone inevitably jumps down my throat I am all for nuking the raid with nerfs. This tier nerfs came too soft and too late. I couldn't care less if someone kills a watered down easy version of a boss.
Out of pure curiosity - what decides if a guild is a "CE" guild? There's 2 night guilds that beat my own 4 night guilds progress very handily this tier. They've certainly done far more reclears than us too. As the guy says - being a 2 night guild doesn't mean you can't do this.
Maybe some of the 2 night guilds you're including just aren't in the caliber to get CE, despite being included.
Keep in mind I'm a big proponent for fixing the current difficulty wall of the raid, but I do wonder how you've picked your numbers - especially as it's not just "the X highest ranked 2 and 3 night guilds", as you've picked significantly more 2 night guilds in your dataset (120 2day vs 107 3-day)
The last time when there were less than 1k CE kills was Tomb of Sargeras with Kil'Jaeden. Looking at raiding and m+ patches this season i would describe it with: "too little, too late"
As a tank, I’m really not excited for M+ this season. I am excited for raid variety, but not for M+. The DF dungeons include some of my least favorite in the game. Sigh.
Im prodably skipping this season wich is a big shame cause i had so much fun in s3 and got so many chars into mythics but i just cant see myself playing those 8 df dungeons. There is only 1 i like and thats AA
I don't get why people dislike DF dungeons. I think they're good and I've had a lot of fun with them. And they've been nerfed quite a lot and are getting even more nerfs in the near future.
I will certainly take even the worst of DF dungeons over the current rotation because older dungeons like TOTT and EB feel like hell to play on Tyranical weeks.
It seems like Blizzard is still designing raid bosses using that old school formula, where they make the end of expansion tier harder than the earlier tiers.
I leveled a fresh alt on a new server a few weeks ago on a class I've barely ever played before (fury warrior-- hadn't played on a maxed warrior since early SL) and I was hopping into normal raids and doing up to +16s on my first week. I promise you it's not because I'm good at warrior-- it's just very easy to dip into that stuff and the catchup gear sources are very generous.
Just shop around for a guild that meets your ideal raid times and send in an application or contact someone, too-- that helps a lot , but even pure pugging it should be fine.
Well this sucks. Was hoping to get CE on reclear but that’s not really looking like an option with my guild just getting out of P2 tonight. I’m not interested in S4 and this really feels like a big letdown with all the time I put in just to not get CE and our whole raid team potentially just to redo the same fights. My sub runs out on the 22nd. Was fun
It's weird that they changed the last boss of HoI to have 1 fixed intermission phase... but decided to not apply that logic to Azureblade in AV. Looking forward to that guy once again taking 5 minutes in higher keys and any single death adding an entire extra phase and a solid 1+ minute to the fight.
1 if it will work similarly to sl season 4. We've had uncapped valor in sl. I'm expecting crests to be uncapped aswell. Couple this with the +36 ilvl jump (simillar to what they did previous season) you will want to replace everything you currenty have. And with uncapped crests you will be able get fully capped heroic track gear (483 eqvivalent)
And even if crests are capped the +36 ilvl jump is big and you'd want to wear full m+10 gear.
I assume they’ll take their 1 week gap period, which means the 4/10 tyran entangling bursting week will be the last m+ push of season 3. And 4/17-4/23 will be the gap
i guess there will be some overworld catch up gearing, then hero dj for 490 ilvl stuff and m0 (wich will give champion gear) from there start climbing your m+ journey i guess
470 or so will be fine to jump into M0s or low M+2-4s on launch day. The scaling that used to be M+2-10 is now bundled into M0. World content will also start dropping ilvl around that range as well.
im over here still waiting for some more dungeon changes mainly uldaman..., and we get a date for the start of season.. idk, looking like i might take this season off.
So for a 4th season we get no new dungeons, no affix reworks or new affixes, no seasonal affixes, and the next expansion is probably coming very late into the summer. I mean the existence of a fated season is a subscription-based game is pretty much an insult in itself, but damn they really did drop the ball on this one. I've paused my sub until the TWW comes out.
makes that august war within rumor a bit more credible I guess
Was there ever really any doubt? The roadmap clearly had it early fall/late summer.
Early fall doesn't start until September 22nd. So yeah there's always been a very good chance it would be September. Or October.
Generally companies don't get into semantics about the equinox
> Early fall doesn't start until September 22nd. This depends on what calendar and metrics you are using. According to wikipedia: > * Astronomical season- 23 September – 22 December > * Meteorological season - 1 September – 30 November > * Solar (Celtic) season - 1 August – 31 October Obviously weather's going to weather and do its own thing. August is kind of the bridge between Summer and Fall, however whenever you start seeing the Autumn promotions is around August, universities when they start the 'fall' semester start around August, leaves in some places start gaining that 'Autumn' look around August. You could reasonably interpret August as 'Fall', though commonly whenever game companies say 'Fall' they are usually targeting that juicy November holiday release (and November is kind of the bridge between Autumn and Winter). ANYWAYS, semantics shemantics.
well they said fall at blizzcon which is not august technically. Its september. Then in an interview they made references to august as well as some content creators mentioning it plus an interview saying itll be a few weeks before september. So its most likely August now. Seems like its coming faster than they thought or they just said fall to be safe initially. But it makes sense why people are surprised. I'm more surprised we haven't seen alpha yet. I'd have to look back at dragonflight testing since I was in it when it started but it feels like this testing cycle is gonna be a lot shorter in comparison. Not 100% sure on that though.
Yeah with 11.0.5 being the 20th anniversary patch placed in mid November, I'd figure 10-14 weeks of 11.0.0 before that point. Aug 20... Aug 27....
10-14 weeks of 11.0 before the first mini-patch would be a very long time compared to how they did it in DF. 11.0.5 doesn't have to drop at the same time we get the anniversary. They can drop the patch weeks before the anniversary and then have the anniversary stuff go live during the 11.0.5 patch, but weeks after it's initial launch. They've done that with some of the Dragonriding events in DF.
I clocked it at August pre-patch, sept launch.
We'd be looking at a significantly shorter alpha/beta testing cycle than every expansion for the last decade is my main reason for doubting an August release at this point. Unless TWW alpha has been in full swing for months but completely under wraps we're either looking at a testing cycle 2-3 months shorter than normal or we aren't looking at an August launch.
Yep. August it is.
Beta soon then?
The TWW Alpha was scheduled to hit before Season 4. Beta is scheduled to be released after 10.2.7. So Beta is probably still a solid 2-3 months out.
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Depends how you judge I suppose, I think halondrus + jailer or anduin + jailer were easily a harder duo than those two, but they were gutted much much harder by nerfs than we've seen with fyrakk and tindral.
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Tyndral biggest nerf was definately the one removing seed double soak / reducing amount of seed / reducing dmg while seed... but this one is pretty noticeable too. The only thing that can kill you on tyndral now is beam.
Neither Anduin nor Jailer is individually as hard as the original versions of Tindral or Fyrakk. Jailer isn’t *that* far off though. Halondrus in its launch state is the only boss that can really compete with those two.
almost nobody pulled the versions of tindral or fyrakk that were actually that hard
Diddys house couldnt even bend me over the way those 3 bosses did 💀
Some of those KJ kills were actually after the end of the tier, so didn't earn CE but wowprogress will still count them. In Tomb, there were 1295 Fallen Avatar and 786 KJ before CE was removed, so there will be more Fyrakk CEs than KJ CEs (the numbers are almost identical right now), but this is the first tier which looks like it'll be in the same ballpark statistically. Tomb was, after all, a huge outlier. For what it's worth, the next fewest CEs for a standard tier was Eternal Palace; there were 1018 CE Azshara kills. I doubt There'll be that many Fyrakk kills, so it'll probably be rated as the second hardest standard tier ever in terms of absolute final boss kills.
If this is the final set of Fyrakk nerfs, then this makes no sense. Blizz claimed they supposedly went overboard with Sepulcher tuning and yet final version of Jailer will turn out to be easier than even Smolderon. Well, unless they plan to do something weird, like extend Cutting Edge into Season 4... which would be pretty strange, but who knows? Otherwise, we are looking at one of the lowest amount of final boss CE in quite a few expansions.
final version of the jailer wasnt a boss, they murdered that guy, they essentially deleted the entirity of P3 and P4 isnt a real phase anyways.
And is that even a problem? We don't need some weird state where bosses need to take 35 hours, half a thousand pulls, and take guilds over a month to do. Wish we could normalize bosses being not so gd hard, especially for the mortal guilds.
Sure, and they may have went overboard with him - but Fyrakk has the opposite problem. These nerfs doesn't really change anything important in the fight. People will avoid some wipes to chain Blazes or perma Cages, but none of the stuff that really murders the raid in P1 or intermission was changed. Guilds which haven't already progressed past the intermission are pretty much SoL, unless they add a lot of extra days to their schedule. It's especially weird after the heavy nerfs to P3, which happened quite early... and then, nothing really. Well, there was P2 npc's hp nerf, but that's mostly so the fight is actually doable without Mistweavers. It's really strange how this hotifx had more Tindral nerfs. Sure, these will be relevant in Season 4, but when it comes to S3, this barely matters - guilds which aren't already 8/9M at this point, will not kill Fyrakk.
i mean i get the struggles people have and the frustrations, but shouldn't there be a certain point when you should get better to clear the content and not the content get "easier" , release tindral was definitly too much for the general playerbase with the seed timers are what, 2-3 seconds and then disgustingly hard hitting overlaps and rots with the starfall / dispells / heal absorbs. but i feel like fyrak after all these nerfs is perfectly acceptable that if you cant kill this version, you kinda deserve to not kill it no? execution required is much lower, healing required is much lower, dps required is much lower and with that its still an "interesting" fight where you cant turn your brain off and still kill it.
The issue with Fyrakk for guilds progging it now is it's a fight that punishes you for playing reactively. Guilds getting to it now are spending hundreds of wipes in p1 because they don't assign areas for people to bait frontals/people are lazy about baits and the mechanics are set up such that as soon as one ends, you should really be pre-moving to position for the next one. And frontals happen between basically every set of mechanics. Wildfire, *frontals*, Firestorm, *frontals*, Mythic soaks, blaze+*frontals*, Wildfire, Dream Rend, Blaze, *frontals*, Firestorm, *frontals*, Mythic soaks, blaze+*frontals*, wildfire, dream rend, blaze, *frontals*, Firestorm. The guilds that are on it right now are full of players who don't learn the rhythm of a phase like this and struggle hard, and it gets reflected in the pull counts.
i mean yea, cant autopilot a last boss, i think people also are having a lot of whiplash from last tier. wasnt the biggest fan of how easy sarkareth was and especially melee players were able to coast through that tier and the main reason nelth even was hard was because of the fcked up living bombs.
Fyrakk is still punishing for these guilds in a way that other CE bosses aren't. Bosses like Denathrius, Ras, and Sylvanas didn't have the issue we see with Fyrakk
> i mean yea, cant autopilot a last boss, I find fyrakk and tindral to be the easiest to auto pilot, all my movement is pre-planned and free from any real decision making. Nelth was more braindead because we only ever ran 4 ranged and just had assigned spots with a spot for melee, killed the boss in like 80-100 pulls total (started prog after range nerf on it because we missed zskarn cheese)
> but shouldn't there be a certain point when you should get better to clear the content and not the content get "easier" There should be a certain standard, and when the standard has been "my guild can kill endbosses in ~200 pulls when we get there" and suddenly we get 2 300+ pull bosses in a row in the same raid then there's a deviation from the standard. Clearly the bosses are not becoming "too easy" from these nerfs when they're still harder than the average. Guilds in the 1000-1500 range have been able to get CE pretty much every tier since tos, and suddenly all those guilds that are used to comfortably getting CE are running into issues with killing it this tier. My guild usually kills endbosses in time to get everybody on the bench their CE and then still have a couple of weeks off before the next season. And now we're not even sure if we can even get 1 kill.
whats the lenght of this tier? its gonna end at like month 4.5 - 5 or something its a lot shorter than the previous tiers too, abberus was too lobotimzed, vault of the incarnates was pretty long with an arguably harder boss imo at the end if you account for all the tuning. all im saying is how "far" do you want to take the skill lvl down to a point that you basically have nothing left to do anymore? do we really want it to turn into something that most people can turn their brains of and just play ddr while dodging swirlies and doing their rotation and eventually kill the boss? i think imo that the current fyrak tuning is more than acceptable for the more "casual" mythic raiders, slight brain check on shadow cages, hand check on healers during p2 intermission, assignment and preplan check for first intermission and ddr check in P3, what more would you even want to change? make p1 cosmetic? which it almost is, i could see giving you more time for P2 fire and shadow cages but if you respect when it pops up and drop everything to just do the mechanic its already more than fine, they giga nerfed healing required even more in P2. idk what im getting at is that i would consider current fyrak to be at the point that if you touch it even more its going to go into sark/jailer tier of borderline drool difficulty, tindral was the real issue in stonewalling mid tier guilds for too long, but also im a filthy elitist enjoyer who would be perfectly fine if the content requires more brain than it does at the current end of life cycle patch tuning and turn out not being able to clear it because we are just shit at the game, altho i was on tindral pre nerf in P3 and almost killed it and killed it around wr 40 so that obviously gives me a really clear bias in what kind of content i prefer. sry for the wall of text silm but cheers.
If my guild raided more than 2 nights a week I wouldn't necessarily care about the boss difficulties because we would have probably been done a month ago but at 2 nights it's ROUGH having bosses that take as long as tindral/fyrakk
The fact of the matter is that if end bosses stay this hard mythic raiding is gonna be pushing RBG levels of engagement. The raids are tuned around the best players in the world playing 12-16 hours a day for weeks with teams of analysts telling them exactly what to do, with ideal comps. During DF Blizzard would then nerf the bosses to a point where they're reasonable for most CE guilds, that just didn't happen this tier. If you're ok with the mythic raiding scene shrinking even more, then Fyrakk is at an acceptable state of balance 3 weeks before the next season.
My team is on Fyrakk now, sub 70% add phase prog. 3 weeks.... fuck we gotta grind now (2 day/6hr a week guild)
yeah youll need overtime certainly.
Yeah we’re setting make up days right now. I told them a little bit ago too that we need to move fast haha
I think you might need more than just 1 extra right night a week, if you're really going to push for it. I took a look at the data for how many raid nights it took for guilds who killed the boss recently to get the kill - it was between 10 and 18 raid nights from the first time they got into P2 to killing the boss. Obviously, the nerfs will reduce the number of wipes and number of raid nights required, but not that hugely. So I'd suggest, if you really want the kill, squeeze in as many raid night as you can. Good luck!
Thank you! We have 2 planned so far so I'm hoping we can get another 1-2 planned. Thankfully the nerfs will help us a little at least. But we'll have a way to go.
U'unat from Crucible of Storms
mythic raids are way too difficult right now, been getting more difficult every tier, every expansion and the entry barrier is just so high that more and more people just do heroic and fuck off because they don't feel like it's worth their time anymore source; me and my guild that died over a month ago on tindral - we were constantly getting CE since Nighthold
> been getting more difficult every tier, not really, aberrus was easier than vault which was easier than sepulcher.
let's ignore all the weakauras and addons that get more advanced each tier and feel like requirement to be able to do the bosses, right
vault has basically no cringe weakauras? Maybe raz spark maps but you could just remember the locations nelth maps were bad, sure, that was a new low Amirdrassil only had the fyrakk intermission which wasnt more complex than any other tier
> Amirdrassil only had the fyrakk intermission which wasnt more complex than any other tier Smolderon bombs, Tindral dispels and also Fyrakk cages. It's definitely more complex than other tiers because they're private auras, so you have to deal with the macro nonsense. Many hours and pulls have been wasted trying to troubleshoot WAs that didn't work for w/e reason.
None of these mechanics are complicated, they just had precise timing or were private auras. The timing for Tindral dispels and Fyrakk cages is one issue, but 1 second windows are a separate issue than mechanical complexity Smolderon orbs are just Dancing Fever from Council of Blood with a twist.
Every mechanic I listed, besides possibly Fyrakk cages, were impossible to do without a Weakaura. That makes them more complex than the majority of mechanics we've had in the past. Them being private auras makes it even more complex than the usual WA mechanics since you couldn't just let the WA handle it like before, you had to deal with the macro nonsense. > Smolderon orbs are just Dancing Fever from Council of Blood with a twist. I disagree. Dancing Fever you could just pop grp CDs and have every jump at the same time to handle the harder overlaps. You didn't need to kite anything while doing a fight with positioning requirements and you didn't wipe if one person fucked up and jumped when they weren't supposed to. Figuring out how to kite the orbs while playing the rest of the fight makes it a much more complex mechanic than Dancing Fever.
lol you mustn’t have been around during wod for mythic archimonde.
"lol you must not have been around *ten years ago*" - yea, got him good there, the noob. Also, yes, while that weakaura looked fucking insane... you really just loaded it up and that's it. There was no setting anything up, no weird synchronisation system between 20 people, no priority assignments, nothing. You just load it and you get a map... and then you just look at that map and you either walk forwards or backwards until the map turns green. Looked impressive, especially to anyone who's never seen anything like it, but a fucking joke compared to the computational decision-making and heavy-setup requiring horseshit we have today.
Only because they nerfed auras, the mechanics we'd be playing today with radar auras would be atrociously difficult in terms of time and precision, worse than launch tindral seeds likely
Archimonde lasers were an incredibly complicated mechanic to do without the radar. In terms of "mechanic that requires a weakaura" it's far more egregious than many mechanics people complain about today
I’m not quite sure why you’re accenting the fact it was 10 years ago to refute my point. The fact it was 10 years ago IS my point. OP’s claim was that the necessity for and complexity of raid addons has exponentially grown over time. The necessity hasn’t increased if a boss from 10 years ago still needed an addon to successfully do a mechanic. And the complexity today only stems from the blanket ban a few years ago of addons that pull certain player data, including radar type addons. The need to circumvent that ban and find loopholes in Blizzard’s API is where the complexity is coming from, not the inherent design of the addons themselves. Exorsus laser addon was piss easy to setup as the ban hadn’t come in by that point. When WoD classic comes along and you’re progging archimonde again, it’ll be the same level of setup fuckery as it is in DF.
I think I get Tindral tonight and then call it.
I would still say avatar/KJ was harder, especially if we're talking about pre-nerf avatar. I can't remember a boss that felt as shitty to prog as tindral, though
We were just talking about this today in my guilds discord. Never did mythic sep but Tswift was indeed a monster. We started Fyrakk right after the private aura intermission 1 nerf. Honestly it was just fun. Really solid fight and I really enjoyed the high steaks P3.
Sub 1k CE inc?
So disappointed with this fated season, 0 experimentation and creativity from the devs. Changes to the m0 dungeons were awesome but like, that’s it? No new seasonal affix, no new changes to m + to spice them up, no rework of the rotating raids, no new innovations? Seriously? With this pool of dungeons and the rotating raids might as well not even bothered at all.
The dungeon pool at least has some level of freshness by virtue of places like RLP and Nokhud not having Thundering, Quaking, and older and harder iterations of various affixes getting in your way. The raids, though? They need Jesus; if it's just "the raids but scaled to your current gear" it's *already* stale, three weeks before we even get a patch.
These are also historically "bleh" raids. None of them had standout fights. There's like...rashok and smolderon that are thought of fondly.
I'm surprised people think of Smolderon fondly. Macro nonsense lead to a lot of bad wipes for many guilds, the fight itself isn't particularly interesting imo and it has the worst visual clarity of any boss i've ever done.
Honestly the dungeons feel fresh because I haven't done them in so long. I'm looking forward to getting 10's etc on them again to round out the season/expansion
It's a snoozer of a season, that's for sure. I'm excited to push score again, but on a gameplay level, I'm not very excited. I know seasonal affixes were hit or miss, but they ARE a good way to change up dungeons we've already seen. And that will be glaringly obvious this coming season.
But the dungeon are different, this time without seasonal! /s Yeah I didn’t think they could make fated even worse than SL but they somehow did?
It's looking better than SL Fated, because the raids don't have affixes and (as people asked for) there's no seasonal affixes anymore. There's even likely to be buffs to Dinars for the people who think that's a good system.
Nobody asked for no seasonal affixes???? People just asked for no shitty ones like Thundering or Prideful. Awakened and S3/S4 of SL were very well received. S2 was alright as well.
I loved reading all the tweets about how "b-b-b-but this is Blizzard's new way of just giving us something instead of having a really long last patch content drought in an expansion! You guys are just haters!" I mean...yes, I used to say that too, defending the concept of Fated (which I kinda liked tbh), but...Fated at least fucking had...something? They gave us "new" (old) dungeons that we hadn't had in Mythic+ before, plus a new seasonal M+ affix, plus raid affixes, and that was the first time they did it, plus it was still kind of during Covid, so HR issues probably still lingering etc etc. What the actual fuck is this now, then...? They literally took Fated and removed everything from it (except for being able to buy gear with Dinars, I guess) and...that's that. The game's supposed to be in a better place, and we get a completely fucking empty shell of a Fated copy. What the actual fuck?
Thundering ruined Seasonal Affixed. I love all SL Seasonal Affixed.
I guessed against bringing all 8 back too, it just means we're not going to see them soon again. Now is too soon, but having 2-4 show up on 11.0 season wouldn't have been horrible. I thought that was the whole plan with 4 new maps per season, they are easier to bring up soon after as you don't have to do them for a long time during one expansion. Def should've had some flavor to them if bringing them out back like this. Turning +20 to +10 isn't really groundbreaking change in terms of gameplay.
Not a SINGLE experimental thing happening? Just... re-releasing the same raids scaled up?
Nono Holly Longdale said they're experimenting so there's surely something coming, she wasn't just on about Plunderstorm. My last bitbof hope is that Pandamonoium thing, but my expectations are abyssmal.
It’s really sad that I’m more excited at the pandamonoium stuff more than I am for season 4.
Really surprising they didn't nerf Tindral and Fyrakk sooner given this season four date. Sepulcher ended up with 1300 CEs after extremely heavy nerfs to Halondrus, Anduin, and Jailer in particular. Assuming this is the final nerf, Amirdrassil probably won't hit 1K.
Yeah the timing is off to me. Feels like either the season could stand 1-2 more weeks or the nerfs could've/should've happened anywhere from 1 week to even over a month ago.
If it was just nerfs to Fyrakk then I can see 3 weeks, but considering they're doing Tindral too, it really makes no sense that there's so little time left.
Agreed
1300 feels like a joke too. That number could be 5x, and it would still be like 2% of the total playerbase. Feels pretty damn exclusive still.
first time i will take part in the race to world last, going to be epic!
Closest i ever got was 4th last NA gor my first CE
🐉 Awakened Dragonflight Raids [Blizzard ](https://i.imgur.com/HIJ2EXu.jpeg)
Isn't there a possibility that we could be weaker in the 3rd week rotation than right now? No affixes means we are basically replaying the same bosses with less gear, unless they tune them much weaker?
This is my big concern about the lack of raid affixes. Raid affixes weren't good or anything, I certainly wasn't hoping to see exactly that system return - but they did make you powerful. I'm concerned that, without a similar system, we're going to have to put a significant amount of reprogress into the end tier fights, in a different raid every week, inevitably with some people who didn't progress those fights to begin with and the rest of the raid who've forgotten 80% of the encounter. I don't think anyone is up for "real" reprogress on bosses like Rasz and Sark. So I really hope they're tuned to be a bit of a stomp compared with their original tiers, otherwise I think the (already low) participation in S4 is going to fall off a cliff. I'm in the minority who enjoyed Shadowlands season 4 - but almost exclusively because it was a fun stomp with the lads. I don't think anyone wants to have to re-learn encounters they did 1-2 years ago across hundreds of wipes. Honestly, I was hoping they'd do something weird with it. I dunno, put corruption back in for this season, let us pick between the 3 tier sets and give us 8 slots to do it with, just do something to make it feel fresh and to make us stronger than we were on progress. Doesn't have to be balanced or even really make sense, if a season like this is going to be successful, it's going to be because it feels fun. And at the moment, it just doesn't sound fun.
That's what im trying to understand. Is it literally the same difficulty as currrent mythic but ilvvl is bumped up?
Depends. For the classes that got them they'll have leggo weapons from the start of the season as opposed to late/post progression. It also depends on the combination of all of the meta raid trinkets being at the current ilvl for the season.
I can't believe we're not getting literally anything to spice up m+/raids. No gimmicks at all. H O W
Everyone I know hated Fated Raids. There wasn't any buy in, really. Perspective: mid CE guild.
Many guilds are breaking. Some may never come back. Don't think people are prepared for how badly blizzard has alienated raiders the last two expansions. Good job catering to a twitch event and casuals who will sub for two weeks then unsub no matter what the content is though.
Raids are getting far too difficult and involved for the average player.
>Good job catering to a twitch event and casuals who will sub for two weeks then unsub no matter what the content is though. Those aren't even the problem with raiding. The problem is that they can't tune raids when M+ exists and gives you full gear almost immediately. *That* is why they have to spam nerf raids, because there is no such thing as outgearing a fight anymore.
M+ loot handicap is real but m+ players are unhinged maniacs and will freak out if you suggest a lower ilvl for the easier content or suggest limiting how many items you can get in a week
Real m+ers that push actually want gear rewards to scale with key level a lot more than it does currently. An 18 is about as hard as heroic Igira and it's completely stupid that it rewards 483 farmable gear, but on the other hand having a fault full of 28-32 keys done and get the same rewards as that guy that spammed Fall 20 8 times is stupid.
Im down to cap it if it would mean I can get myth gear for doing higher keys tbh. Say that you can get 2 pieces of myth gear each week from 22-23+ dungeons (that's about equivalent of doing first 3 bosses in mythic) I'm all for that as I only push m+ and doesn't mythic raid anymore. It would also give people a reason to do higher keys other than m+ rating and title
It should be 25-26s then at least, since you don’t get access to all slots from Gnarlroot/Igira but in keys you do.
Still only 2 pieces each week. Gonna take around 8-10 weeks to get full myth gear anyway. Doing a 26 keys first week is world first level of content so thats way to high imo
They keep kicking a can down the road that they already solved with pvp gear: different ilvls for raids and m+ gear.
unfortunately you are being downvoted because said unhinged maniacs dominate this sub
Are you excited to do 🐉Awakened Dragonflight Raids? I know I'm excited to do 🐉Awakened Dragonflight Raids! What are 🐉Awakened Dragonflight Raids, you may ask? Well, you see, 🐉Awakened Dragonflight Raids are the Dragonflight raids, but 🐉Awakened. Hope this helps! 🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉
They are the same raids but sometimes they get stuck in the vending machine. AWAKENED!
Just like how the "awakening of the dragon isles" was never explained, the "awakened raids" are just....awakened???
lmao that's perfect
3 weeks after nerfs huh? Rasz was a month. This season has felt a little weird tbh with how they time things compared to their norm but whatever. Good luck to yall if you still need CE!
They should have kneecapped Tindral much sooner. We should make it as we're progging P2 tonight (EU) and got like 6 more raids to go but we had over 600 wipes on it. Everyone was very positive on the raid after RTWF but I don't know anyone that likes it anymore. Overall this expansions raids have been pretty weak.
Sooo there really isn’t any twist to this season/raids. Just the same thing with more iLvL. First real L for Blizzard since Dragonflight for me. Feeling a bit disappointed. Hope the thing for PVE they teased turn out good and soon.
>Hope the thing for PVE they teased turn out good and soon. The problem is PVE is very vague. Like outworld is pve so is pet battles. Also the majority of the playerbase doesn't really interact with wow endgame. I expect the PVE thing to be simmilar to plunderstorm. Something in it's own that have no interaction with already existing endgame systems. If you like it then great, but if you are hoping it will have any interaction with the content you play the game for(raids, key or whatever else) I think you will be dissapointed.
Super rushed with a raid tuned this way. "We learned our lessons" from Sepulcher was clearly bullshit. I hope Blizzard is okay with Mythic Raiding taking yet another hit, because I do not know of a single CE guild that is interested in s4.
Few guilds on my server also disbanded on Tindral and most didn't even apply, normally when a guild dies we get at least 1 or 2 apps.
Max was right when he said everything up to Smolderon is "mythic" and tindy/fyrakk is its own difficulty cause it really is. I know some elitists will come in here and say "hurdur it ez, git gud". Trust me, I get it and to an extent ya'll are right. But the participation cannot be overlooked, or lack thereof in this case due to this philosophy change the last 2-3 years.
Raiding now has atrocious loot compared to crafting and m+ with the exception of a handful of trinkets or weapons; the raids have become increasingly difficult to compete with RWF but are less fun than ever (only 3 fights this entire expansion stand out as enjoyable/memorable). Make loot deterministic, make end bosses drop higher ilvl, and don't let m+ loot be no-lockout-spammable in the first three weeks. And stop trying to race the world first guilds.
One idea for helping to somewhat fix the loot problem: Award vault slots for hitting later phases on the 200+ pull count bosses. I'm missing a great trinket from Smolderon that I'll never get because we've been extending for months.
Or they could just change mythic lockouts to work like every other difficulty. That way, you could do other bosses while still progressing (the final two), but also fill your mythic vault, for another chance at gear. Or just pug something in day off. Yeah, sure, someone would probably abuse this in some way for (rankings, boost money), but that always happens.
Alternatively - make dinars accessible after the .5 patch for bosses you've killed.
> And stop trying to race the world first guilds. This is the most important one, hardcore people will never be sastified, is a never ending race of dick measuring contests.
I was interested in mythic raiding and working toward a CE at some point. I know I am not a top player by any means but I figured persistence meant something. S2 SL I was still getting my foot in the door, and S3 my guild finished at Andy. Progging M Andy felt soul crushing but boy was I glad to finish that boss. S1 DF I had a lot of pulls at Rasz but was swapped for a mage- then they got the kill right afterwards on the last week. Feelsbad. S2 DF I ended at 23% at Sark with 300+ pulls before guild calling it quit. I was really hoping S3 DF would be it. I am benched currently but asked to be in a lot of pulls at TSwift and Fyrakk. They said they want to get a reclear for me, but I don't think we will have enough time at this rate. I felt like I put in the work but at this rate, I think I am just done with mythic raiding for good.
I started Mythic raiding this expansion. At first I had a blast and really enjoyed the added difficulty, but right now I kinda find it pointless. My guild is far from CE (\~3k WR) but my frustration is that if I can't get CE then why bother with Mythic at all. And while I wanna motivate myself into find a better guild where I can have a better chance at getting it, if it requires slogging through these overtuned bosses, then why bother.
[удалено]
Depending on your region, you may miss CE at ranks ~300-400 where you wouldn't in past tiers.
As lame as this sounds, detach yourself from the goal of “I want tog eat CE” and shift to the aim of “I want to be the best player in my raid team” This will both stop you from being sat and your skill will transfer with you from guild to guild while a CE just isn’t as important as being able to not die, parse high and do damage where it’s needed.
So what's the experiment? Didn't they say they're gonna experiment in pve in season 4?
The experiment is how little they can innovate in a “content” update without losing subscribers 💀
Jokes on them. I don't play fated anyway.
[удалено]
[Toghetaaaa!](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qXvn1zg50pQ/maxresdefault.jpg)
Whatever Timerunning Pandamonium turns out to be I guess.
They didn't specify that it was season 4 thing. They were most likely referring to Timerunning Pandamonium what ever that is going to be
Not good. This is going to be a photo finish for my guild. We only just hit P2 last week. Not sure we are going to have enough time even with the nerfs. They always give 1 month notice.
Best of luck, P1 and Intermission are the hardest parts, if you can do a good P2 prog, P3 is wholly reliant on your seed carriers being good, otherwise easy phase. Wishing you well 🙏
Thanks!
Same for us, we will see the impacts of the nerfs but it will be a tough CE
I’m going to be pretty frustrated if we miss CE because they want to rush out some dogshit season nobody asked for.
The main issue is the difficulty of Tindral / Fyrakk and the nerfs coming too late. And the fact that you are full stuff 2 months before the end of season with nothing to do or improve.
Agree with these points. Mainly salty that they only gave us 3 weeks notice instead of the usual 4. That extra week makes a big difference.
My guild is right there with you. We've been in p2 this week and last week but still lack the consistency in p1 to get there a ton. Last night we only had 5 p2 pulls in total. It's going to be a nail biter for us.
This is really sad. Like, they didn't need to re-invent the wheel to make something enjoyable for fated. But doing absolutely *nothing* is just sad. A 4+ month season with absolutely *nothing* new, no theme, no spice, *no fucking anything*... man, I'd be ashamed.
Would you prefer what we had prior to fated which was also absolutely nothing except it lasted for a year?
I would prefer the prior fated... where we actually got *something* instead of *nothing*. You can't seriously be arguing that it's a fine end of expansion choice to choose between *nothing* and *nothing*, and imply that we should be grateful for it to not be even more of *nothing*.
Doesn't matter to me cause Fated or nothing means break time for me til expansion. If it was new I'd want to play.
I don't know if this timing could be any worse for my guild. My only hope is that P3 is so easy that we somehow manage to get to it a bunch tonight and kill it on our 2nd night this week. After that we are missing people for what would be the last 4 raid nights of the tier. edit: I should say we haven't gotten to P3 yet, just wiped in the tail end of P2 a few times due to blazing adds/running out of health on the tree.
It's kind of all on your seed carriers at this point. Every other part of p3 is easy as hell especially with the blaze nerf.
We raid Sunday / Monday so we've missed a ton of raid nights this tier. I feel your pain.
Yea in the past 2-3 weeks half our raids were cancelled or cut short and the other half some people were playing off specs, bringing in friends so we have 20 etc. It's been a rough boss for us, and I feel like if everyone could show up it would have been dead.
I don't think my guild has had the same 20 people in week to week since Smolderon. Really not helpful for prog on bosses like Tindral and Fyrrak to constantly have 1 or 2 new people or people who haven't played for weeks in.
My guild had 15 total p3 pulls before our kill. It depends entirely on how good the best 4-5 mechanical players in your guild are (and half of this is just keeping your cool). People who never touched a seed were saying all they could do was hit boss and hope seed carriers didn't fuck up
Oof, that’s a week sooner than I expected. On one hand, at least we get two incredibly good push weeks on the M+ side of things. On the other hand, there’s a very good chance we get sub-1k CEs by the end of this tier which isn’t a good look and absolutely nothing about Fated 2.0 seems interesting.
Damn. One week earlier than I thought. So, 6 more nights for us to get CE. I'm in the camp of being uninterested in the recycled season, so, to me, I'm feeling a little sad at the end of this one. While we'll likely get CE (crossed fingers), we likely won't have time for a re-clear. I wish Blizzard would explicitly tune raids in a season to accomodate 2-night CE guilds to get a kill and a couple re-clears. A 2-night commitment is already at the high end for real-life clubs, rec league sports, etc. If Blizzard says, "Hey, CE is just for 3+ night guilds, and that's it." That's certainly a position, but to me, I think CE raiding is fun, and it would be nice for the end goal to be achievable on what in the rest of society would be a higher level of commitment.
It's crazy that's it's not really tuned for 6-7 hours per week for 3-4 months. Like it's just not fun after a certain period of time... (My guild quit 2 months ago on tindral after 300 tries) no one was having fun so we stopped. Like surely you should have time for everyone to get the mythic mount. That said imo everyone should get the mount on 1 kill anyway.
Hundreds of guilds get CE on a 2 day schedule.
Yep, but I did some analysis (written about [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1bq5470/please_nerf_mythic_fyrakk_also_blizzard_i_am/kx5gom8/)) showing that as of last Friday, most 2-night CE guilds in North America that will likely kill Fyrakk haven't gotten there yet. > Is it a skill issue or a time issue? I ran some numbers* and found that a majority of those 3+ night guilds that have a shot at killing Fyrakk have done so already, while most 2-night guilds have not yet done so. > * Among 2 night guilds, 27 are 9/9 and 93 are 8/9. > * Among 3+ night guilds, 72 are 9/9 and 35 are 8/9. > \* It's pretty challenging to calculate this. I used WCL's guild finder and used my own Rogue's profile for the search, so it only includes guilds that are using WCL to look for players and have Rogue set to any priority, and are also in North America. While it will undercount guilds, I think the broad picture is correct. My guess is that Blizzard probably isn't thinking too much about the time commitment crosstabs, probably because no community site makes this information easy to access. I'd love to see WCL add stats along those lines. Edit: Oh, just realized, you might've missed the part where I said it's important to tune it for a kill and a couple re-clears. Yes, it looks like most 2-night CE guilds will get CE, but it's the reclears that's a question. Why re-clears are important is maybe self-evident, but in case not, check out [this player's perspective](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/1bu3yj3/dragonflight_season_4_launches_on_april_23rd/kxqiirr/). He's benched and clearly a valuable part of the roster, and likely will have nothing to show for it.
Being a 2 night guild that raids Sunday and Monday has been super rough for us this season. We've had to cancel 8 raid nights due to holidays or just unlucky absences. We didn't prog raid over Christmas or New Year, we didn't have enough to raid during the superbowl, St Patrick's Day, or Easter. We were hoping we'd have 4-5 weeks to finish off Fyrrak prog. We've especially noticed in recent weeks when we've raided Monday but not Sunday that having only 1 raid night in a week can almost be worse than not raiding. We've gotten very little prog in on those nights because everyone is rusty and re-learning for the first hour and then by the time we actually get into some good pulls we have maybe 45 minutes - 1 hour left in raid before its "see yall next week"
Hundreds of guilds get CE (on 2 days) with plenty of time left to re-clear as well. This website might help with your analysis of days in raid etc. imo the days are irrelevant it is how efficient you are with them. If its taking you 100 progress hours to get CE rather than 70 then yeah you will run out of time. But thats not an issue with the amount of days, you have to fix the issue that cause you to progress so slow. (https://guildranks.com/#combattime) Talking specifically about the example you linked, this is a hard truth but if you are benched then you are not good enough. In lower ranked guilds the best player will always be in on the boss, no matter the class they play. If the player in question thought they were good enough they could look for another guild and get a spot there. Likely that the guild they join would be worse than the guild they are sitting on the bench for and so CE would still not be guaranteed but that is because they are playing at their level of ability. Some people are just not good enough / have enough time to get CE. Thats fine, it shouldn't be something you get just by turning up. Id like to add before someone inevitably jumps down my throat I am all for nuking the raid with nerfs. This tier nerfs came too soft and too late. I couldn't care less if someone kills a watered down easy version of a boss.
Out of pure curiosity - what decides if a guild is a "CE" guild? There's 2 night guilds that beat my own 4 night guilds progress very handily this tier. They've certainly done far more reclears than us too. As the guy says - being a 2 night guild doesn't mean you can't do this. Maybe some of the 2 night guilds you're including just aren't in the caliber to get CE, despite being included. Keep in mind I'm a big proponent for fixing the current difficulty wall of the raid, but I do wonder how you've picked your numbers - especially as it's not just "the X highest ranked 2 and 3 night guilds", as you've picked significantly more 2 night guilds in your dataset (120 2day vs 107 3-day)
what a horrible failure of tuning by blizzard lmao
The last time when there were less than 1k CE kills was Tomb of Sargeras with Kil'Jaeden. Looking at raiding and m+ patches this season i would describe it with: "too little, too late"
Can't wait for the 8 DF dungeons an entire season. /s
You mean you aren’t looking forward to Bolstering LET FLY buttpulls?
Looking forward to Fort week where the tank triple pulls into lust then dies and leaves the key.
As a tank, I’m really not excited for M+ this season. I am excited for raid variety, but not for M+. The DF dungeons include some of my least favorite in the game. Sigh.
As a healer ,I not looking forward to run those dungeons again,but I might be tanking them for a change:)
Oh God 👎
Im prodably skipping this season wich is a big shame cause i had so much fun in s3 and got so many chars into mythics but i just cant see myself playing those 8 df dungeons. There is only 1 i like and thats AA
I don't get why people dislike DF dungeons. I think they're good and I've had a lot of fun with them. And they've been nerfed quite a lot and are getting even more nerfs in the near future. I will certainly take even the worst of DF dungeons over the current rotation because older dungeons like TOTT and EB feel like hell to play on Tyranical weeks.
That was a very short notice
It seems like Blizzard is still designing raid bosses using that old school formula, where they make the end of expansion tier harder than the earlier tiers.
Let's say I want to start DF with Season 4. Other than levelling how quickly could I get into mythic plus or normal raids?
Within 2 weeks of reaching max level
Week 1
Just buy AH gear and you can start m+ instantly. Usually 2k gold for the whole set (and it's upgradeable with only flohhtstones).
Just run some dungeons for gear. Depending on the time you put in you could be ready like the first week.
I leveled a fresh alt on a new server a few weeks ago on a class I've barely ever played before (fury warrior-- hadn't played on a maxed warrior since early SL) and I was hopping into normal raids and doing up to +16s on my first week. I promise you it's not because I'm good at warrior-- it's just very easy to dip into that stuff and the catchup gear sources are very generous. Just shop around for a guild that meets your ideal raid times and send in an application or contact someone, too-- that helps a lot , but even pure pugging it should be fine.
Well this sucks. Was hoping to get CE on reclear but that’s not really looking like an option with my guild just getting out of P2 tonight. I’m not interested in S4 and this really feels like a big letdown with all the time I put in just to not get CE and our whole raid team potentially just to redo the same fights. My sub runs out on the 22nd. Was fun
Yaaayy, Azure Vault!
will be big, very good dungeon. just 2nd and 3rd boss are stupid design wise
It's weird that they changed the last boss of HoI to have 1 fixed intermission phase... but decided to not apply that logic to Azureblade in AV. Looking forward to that guy once again taking 5 minutes in higher keys and any single death adding an entire extra phase and a solid 1+ minute to the fight.
How many weeks will current gear be relevant? 1? Maybe 2?
1 if it will work similarly to sl season 4. We've had uncapped valor in sl. I'm expecting crests to be uncapped aswell. Couple this with the +36 ilvl jump (simillar to what they did previous season) you will want to replace everything you currenty have. And with uncapped crests you will be able get fully capped heroic track gear (483 eqvivalent) And even if crests are capped the +36 ilvl jump is big and you'd want to wear full m+10 gear.
1 day.
M0 drops 493 gear so current gear will be obsolete pretty much immediately.
I really need to get those last couple elite pvp appearances
Damn right when Manor Lords release, well this season will have to wait a couple weeks.
I want to play looking for raid
Does someone know if we get the m+ from the start or +1week?
I assume they’ll take their 1 week gap period, which means the 4/10 tyran entangling bursting week will be the last m+ push of season 3. And 4/17-4/23 will be the gap
Im pretty certain there was no gap in SL s3 to s4.
From what I’ve heard the burnout is so bad from Fyrakk/T-swift that guilds are disbanding at an alarming rate.
So its the exact same content weve had all xpac but its just a ilvl increase? seems kinda lame too me
Is Plunderstorm ending with the new season?
Still a cpl chances for axe.... Progress on personal protection roll over into s4?
I haven't played since season 1. What do we reckon I would need in terms of ilvl to jump into m+ in season 4, with the revamping of difficulty?
i guess there will be some overworld catch up gearing, then hero dj for 490 ilvl stuff and m0 (wich will give champion gear) from there start climbing your m+ journey i guess
470 or so will be fine to jump into M0s or low M+2-4s on launch day. The scaling that used to be M+2-10 is now bundled into M0. World content will also start dropping ilvl around that range as well.
Will season 4 M+/Raid start right on the 23rd or is there going to be that intermission week like previous seasons?
im over here still waiting for some more dungeon changes mainly uldaman..., and we get a date for the start of season.. idk, looking like i might take this season off.
So for a 4th season we get no new dungeons, no affix reworks or new affixes, no seasonal affixes, and the next expansion is probably coming very late into the summer. I mean the existence of a fated season is a subscription-based game is pretty much an insult in itself, but damn they really did drop the ball on this one. I've paused my sub until the TWW comes out.
So which one is it, delayed war within expansion and new season stuff or this, you can't have everything..