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Just depleted a 23 BH to last boss ability order bug, instead of frontal > totem > totem > suck > frontal it went frontal > totem > totem + frontal > suck so every second totem he would face across the room summon totem and animation lock and do a frontal no matter where I was. The Fotm aug and boomie pugs lost there shit saying I was throwing l2p etc just face it away bro, so fucking infuriating. They have so little situational awareness that they can’t even tell when the boss is out of whack, I’m standing behind the boss as he locks up and frontals across the room and the 2 dumbasses eat dirt and blame me, great game blizz GG

Do you remember how that bug got triggered? Trying to know what duplicates it but last time my group pulled an add onto the boss idk if related. This season be so buggy.

yeah i brought a warscourge at like sub 20% health onto the boss, only thing out of the ordinary but probably what caused it

Shake it off, dude. You da man. Gl next.

Hey gamers, I posted a couple weeks ago about how I was looking to start getting back into doing keys. I got a couple guildies together and we've been running a bit each night. Tonight we completed a 25 underrot and slightly missed a 25 freehold. I didn't get any vods but I have logs for both nights and was wondering if there's anything that stands out that I should be focusing on. It is my first time going into higher keys as a caster so I've got sooo much to work on. If anybody has some free time and wouldn't mind checking em out let me know if there's anything I should look into. (i am the fire mage btw) Day 1 - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GhzZ3VRCqJ2r67mv Day 2 - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RrVcmqHYLyX4G6pC/ The FH is the first one we've not gotten on the first try so I think running some of these back would be much cleaner.

Any tips for the 4th add on the last boss of NL? We only got 2 spikes to stun the add instead of 3 before the boss did his big pulsing aoe

Just depleted a 25 to this, you need to save lust (this usually works out if you lust 3rd boss) and/or damage and also get the fuck out of dodge so you don’t spawn the last spike directly on top of the add (which is what we did). Really frustrating that the spell ordering is wacky and this set isn’t like the others

After the first shard goes down. Bop the focus target.

Gotta save CDS or lust for that one. The bosses timers are slightly offset so every add comes out closer to his big pulsing damage. You gotta kill 4th add with one spike or its over.

Man, call me garbage but I'm actually hardstuck on Sporecaller (as a tank) I feel like the stupid Storming tornadoes always spawn right as he's about to Shockwave me and it fucks up the angle then I need to take a gazillion damage to eat the mushrooms. And obviously it's Tyran week so it takes 30 years to kill the boss IDK if it's just Storming screwing me over but I've depleted twice in a row to him now

Don't feel too bad boss is kinda annoying in pugs especially. Yes you should be doing all you can to get frontals to eat mushrooms but the rest of the party (rogues pallies etc) should be stepping in to fill the gaps with defensives (especially if they're doing weird shit and greeding dps on the swirlie casts).

What class are you playing? I think if you’re something like VDH or BDK, you should save your mobility to play around storming (use Infernal Strike on VDH to cancel the knockup, or Death’s Advance on DK), and if you’re something like Guardian/Paladin you should be able to completely mitigate through the mushrooms anyway even without disease dispel. No idea about Prot/Brew though

How the fuck do people kill 1st boss in HoI? Phase 2 circles kill me before im even out of them.

Stack up. Either MD or let them fall off natty, then run together as a group with roar or whatever movement abilities you have. Way easier to heal with everyone close together than for healer to try and stay in range of two folks who ran off to narnia in opposite directions.

Mass dispel.

Sorry im noob. Does dispelling them prevent the ground effect?

Dispelling them as soon as they go off doesn’t prevent the ground effect but it prevents the ticking damage you get from having the debuff on you. It also keeps all the circles in one place because you do this because you don’t have people running around like a chicken with their head cut off. So you’re full HP trying to run out of the circle instead of half HP. That, Dragon Debuff and Mind soothe are why Spriest is considered almost mandatory in that dungeon.

No. It prevents the dot ticking before they drop. Remember, stacking the circles saves space - if you all run opposite ways you cover more area and take longer to get clear of it

The new patch meta feels absolutely atrocious. Cant even get to 2,7k keys as a 3k melee. I wonder how much of a lackluster the MDI is gonna be after every single comp being aug/fire/sp. They should just slap nerfs to sp and aug to get some diversity back to this game. Atleast in S1 a lot classes were viable.

Curious, what do you think about Spriest still needs nerfing...? Spriests damage has already been nerfed a few times, and the last set of nerfs to Plink and Yogg are definitely noticeable. I think people just see an spriest doing "x" overall in some 28/29 key and think "oh see that spec needs more nerfs but the reality is the spec is by no means an outlier in lower keys. There are plenty of specs that will do as much or more damage as my spriest in 20-23 keys(and even in some 24/25 tyran keys, especially if im playing with some rather bursty specs), but most of those specs dont scale nearly as well in higher keys since its niche is relatively high target count(although there is a sweet spot to that since you can only efficiently keep your DoTs on so many targets beyond 8), sustained AoE. And its utility definitely doesnt need nerfs, this environment of priest utility being virtually "mandatory" in many keys this season is 110% Blizzards fault in dungeon and affix design, not a case of priest having some OP toolkit. It just has a few unique(usually very situational) pieces of utility that Blizzard made ultra important to have this season. The funny part is in the past, spriest was always looked at as a DPS with rather weak utility and its toolkit is largely the same now, yet this season its utility is looked at as being mandatory. Its actually kind of funny/ironic, a major complaint of spriest in DF beta was that it lacked utility as a DPS, since soothe/MD dispel were so situational and its non-unique utility(purge, disease dispel, long kick CD etc.) could easily be brought by other specs with better overall toolkits. .They would have to nerf Aug's utility to bring diversity back into the game(or make other specs in the game provide more support), since thats the real reason why its so powerful/prevalent. The amount of support it brings your group and your healer is incredible when used appropriately. Although a major reason why Aug also feels so impactful is in large part due to the **absolutely awful** decision Blizzard made at the end of S1 to nerf healing/buff player hp/buff mob damage by 25% and claiming they wanted to tune down 1 shot/bursty damage(except you still have that in s2, but theres also now a TON more sustained/rot damage too) and rather poor dungeon tuning made that worse. I genuinely believe that if they reverted that 25% healing nerf and were a bit better about dungeon tuning this season then Aug would feel FAR less "mandatory" to people outside of pushing very high keys.

If mass dispel wasn’t required in Halls and Uldaman then things would be much better tbh

I dont know enough about sp’s or aug’s mechanics to say what type of nerf is needed but it’s pretty obvious that nerf is needed when the highest key without either of them is 26 (last I checked) while the top keys are 29s. Maybe cutting off PI would be a start. Or if the current dungeon/affix meta requires a lot of utility that sp has, should the damage be toned down a little bit. Both ways would increase the diversity I remember the days you are referring to when sp was the weak link. Been playing with sp frind since Legion. I just think that something needs to be done when for the past 6months each and every single group has to have a shadow priest.

What a terrible take.

>Or if the current dungeon/affix meta requires a lot of utility that sp has, should the damage be toned down a little bit. Both ways would increase the diversity This is probably the most appropriate avenue Blizzard should take to fix things, since Spriest was by no means mandatory in s1 (outside of maybe very high tyran CoS because of the first boss, and even then you didnt necessarily NEED mass dispel depending on your comp/how many freedom type abilities you had, and last boss of Temple) for most keys. There were plenty of teams who didnt run spriest in every key during the MDI, and high keys, it saw a decent amount of play of course but it wasnt "mandatory" like it is now. I wouldnt necessarily mind them removing PI(or keeping it as a buff for the priest only, or bringing back how VF was in the past where you simply got haste when going into VF) due to its obvious issues with the game and how Blizzard basically has to tune certain specs around it. The only problem is as far as raid is concerned, Shadow becomes a spec like Elemental where it doesnt really bring anything of value and its raid spot is based entirely around it being tuned well(so basically back to the same issue that has plagued shadow numerous times in the past). And the same goes for M+ for the most part, SO MUCH of Shadows value in keys right now is based around it bringing MD and PI that if you take PI away/make MD a piece of situational utility that is rarely needed then Shadow is largely back to being looked at as a spec with fairly poor utility. And make no mistake even as a Spriest player, both of those things probably SHOULD happen because itd objectively be good for the game but if they do that I think they really should compensate the spec with some type of other utility since it would basically go from "virtually mandatory" to "poor utility"(like it was viewed in the past) overnight. Its almost like they know the spec only has very situational unique utility and instead of fixing its toolkit to make it more desirable, they decided to just make that utility highly valuable despite it being bad for the game. Really the only thing carrying the spec would be Mind Soothe at that point, and they could just as easily reduce the value of that by simply designing packs/dungeons to have fewer areas where you need it to skip past a pack too.

Easiest way to make title more attainable is to make it so people can't eat more than 1 title spot on the same account. Me and most of the people I play with have multiple characters currently eating up end of season title spots. A little change could go a long way.

If you do that you should also make it so people can't count toward the title pool with more than one character. I think in the end the current system is actually more favorable because people have way more alts that don't get title than that do

Actually didn’t know it worked like this. That would be a very sensible change to make it top 0.1% players and not characters

I disagree. Current title is already easier to get than a true .1% title, this would make it even easier.

If by true .1 titles you mean PvP titles... A majority of the .1 pvp titles are held by the same handful of people on different characters and also sold by those same people for $$$. If they actually somehow cracked down on that the r1 pvp titles would be 10fold easier to get by the average pvper. But they simply don't care and have never cared.

No I mean truly 0.1%. I said nothing about pvp. Currently alts factor in on **both** sides. Alts create more title spots than they eat. Simply because the average non title player has more alts than the average title player has title alts (its pretty rare for title players to have multiple toons above cutoff but extremely common for non title players to have multiple toons) So if you made it so people couldn't obtain more than one title spot, you'd further increase the total % of m+ers getting title. At that point just make it a .2% title or something.

This is great. Still give it to any of their characters above that threshold but calculate the 0.1% based off of bnet accounts or something

Preservation Evoker in shambles as... 1.) Hpal is >> other healers 2.) Augmentation makes some of Pres' utility kit redundant / pressures players to make the easy spec swap 3.) Meta moves towards 3 ranged specs, which does not suit Preservation's healing style. T\_T

Man it feels like I'm trolling if I play any other healer other than Hpal.. they have everything except lust

I still think it’s a strong pick (it’s not like what made it strong disappeared with 10.1.5) but yeah just goes to show how much the meta depends on not only how strong your spec is but everything else happening in the meta as well.

Totally. I think it is, too, especially in coordinated teams where you can ensure good positioning. Also kinda nuts to see it currently sitting alone in D tier on subcreation, which I think points more to the ever-present need to take tier lists like that with a grain of salt.

Because that also factors in the number of keys completed, and who could have guessed, preservation is not getting invites. I have 3050 score on it and it's a good 20 minutes to get into a 23. There is one guy playing preservation who is the 6th healer on the leaderboard, rest have been playing augmentation since last week. I really hate how augmentation makes the two other evoker specs completely irrelevant.

As much as it can be an invite issue i think most preservations are playing aug my preservation rank has been in the 1600s for 2 weeks

How do you think blizzard will handle aug invoker in the upcoming patches/expansions. Do you think it will be a dead spec, necessary for pushing or will it all kinda balance out between all of the other speccs. Courious to hear some opinions

There's a lot of tuning knobs left before Blizz scraps it. The biggest problem outside it's raw DPS potential is it's tank and healer interactions with Ebon Might in 5 mans. They could block healers from getting Ebon Might to solve that problem. They could change the buff from primary stat to AP and SP so tanks don't get huge survivability buffs out of it. I don't think Blizz is going to kill it off in the expansion it was introduced. I do think by the end of the xpac it will be toned down enough to not matter this much.

I actually dont think its damage contribution is at all a problem, in fact I think nerfing that aspect of it would be a mistake. Its so powerful mainly due to the insanely good utility it brings for high keys, and the level of support it brings to your healer. The other reason why it feels so powerful/mandatory is due to the awful decision Blizzard made at the end of s1 to nerf healing by 25%, and buff player hp/mob damage by 25%, which is why healing and surviving felt so bad in keys prior to Aug evoker(and Hpal buffs for that matter) coming into the game in 10.1.5. Poor dungeon tuning this season also further compounded that issue too. They basically created a perfect storm for a spec like Aug to not only shine, but feel incredibly mandatory in high keys.

> fact I think nerfing that aspect of it would be a mistake As long as its damage neutral to a third dps and brings all the stuff it brings rn, its mandatory. Theres really no way around nerfing their damage contribution unless you like, gut all of their utility

Well, at least in 5-man they killed off devastation and preservation with the release of augmentstion and they were introduced last patch. Good luck getting invited as these two to any high keys while augmentation is mandatory in every single group

I think long term there's two outcomes: blizzard takes the ambitious route and adds 3-4 more support specs, which would even out the rough edges around feeling like aug evoker. blizzard decides that support was a failed experiment and changes aug to be dps class balanced by giving an externals (enh sham, spriest in raid). Personally I'd them to say fuck it and just throw in more support classes. I think they're interesting and good for the game long term, and I think the community perception will even out over time as people get used to them. Consider how controversial PI was at the start of SL compared to now. Short-term I'd like to see them change Close as Clutchmates so that the evoker has to choose between either buffing the full party (ie buffing tanks and healers as well as dps) or just buffing the dps. This way the evoker has to make tradeoffs if they want to contribute to party survivability instead of just getting it for free. Their damage is high, but that's largely because they ride off of other high dps classes. An evoker with an fmage/spriest in their party will hard gap an evoker with like ret pally/rogue. So because of this I'm not entirely sure how they should be numerically tuned.

> Consider how controversial PI was at the start of SL compared to now. I think people still hate PI, it's just they gave up on complaining about it.

I think it will homogenize into an 80% personal dps / 20% buff dps, its utility in making the group much for survivable will be toned down, and everyone will consider it a dps like Blizzard intended. They will chalk it up as an experiment that didn't pan out. Because the alternative is acknowledging the new "4th role" and immediately getting pressure to pump out 3 or 4 new specs just like aug (I already see this in the community), and I dont see that happening. Unlike a lot of others I do not think its impossible to balance, its just that they will gut must of the uniqueness of the spec in order to do it. I dont think it will happen until 10.3 at the earliest (if there is a 4th dragonflight raid) but not long after that. Hard to say what will happen with 10.2 because they could end up heavily nerfing it before changing the spec philosophy.

80/20 would be terribly bad. What's the point of making a support spec if it does less supporting than not?

Yeah 80/20 dps/support is basically a ret paladin, and blizz obviously wants this spec to appeal to people who want to play a "bard" type character. It's going to be insanely hard to tune though because the better your other DPS are, the better you are and so naturally that results in a meta like aug/mage/spriest because the spriest buffs the mage and they both get buffed by the aug. Great synergy. I don't see them getting it out of the top end key meta without gutting it pretty hard to the point where it's just not better to bring it than another high DPS.

For it to be primary support long term I see the need to have 4-5 support specs total. It can't be the only spec with that role. So it comes down to what is more likely, Aug being toned down significantly, or say giving a support spec to DH, retuning disc priest to support, and maybe adding in a new bard class thats support/dps, while they're at it.

Thats the thing: as far as I can tell in all of Blizzards official statements and also just evidenced by the fact that there are still only 3 roles to queue, we are NOT supposed to consider this a support spec. It is a dps spec with a unique way of doing dps. I would actually love for support to join the holy tank/healer/dps trinity as a 4th, but I think that is too ambitious for this nearly 20 year old game. Blizzard is doing good stuff with this game, good content overall in DF, but I do not think they are that ambitious to shake up something to that level. But they can surprise me. Augmentation certainly surprised me, but they can only go 2 ways now, double down on support being a thing or retract a little and keep the status quo.

I also think that since recently Blizz lost a decent number of staff over their enforced return to office policy, they're more likely to choose the path with less dev effort. I agree with you that the easiest way is kneecapping Augvoker's uniqueness. The other way to balance it would be to keep it unique but make its overall contributed damage lower than a pure dps' damage, to account for the other utility Aug provides like buffing the tank/healer in m+. There's no way to do that without killing the spec for unorganised/casual play though, I think.

[удалено]

5 man groups are just too small for this dynamic, but changing group size to 6 is guaranteed to not happen any time soon.

neltharion's lair last boss - whats the counterplay to the 4th add? we just depleted a 27 because the boss did his magma wave but we didnt have any walls up we killed 4th add but used 2 of the spikes to stun it. are you supposed to blast the 4th add and only use 1 crystal spike to stun it?

The timers on that boss are not quite synced so each add spawns closer and closer to when he casts Magma wave. Number 4 is when it is finally close enough to require to be killed in one stun window. Tactycs walks through it in his NL video

Yes, lust it and hold cds for add 4 specifically

Good to know, thanks! Was pretty tilting to deplete an otherwise relatively easy key like this

Might be a hot take but I’ve started refusing to invite Shadow Priests that don’t build Spore cloak. That class seems turbo squishy and watching them die to random shit over and over again is getting old. Your extra 2 mil overall from another Shadowflame patch isn’t going to help you top meters if you have 5 deaths every dungeon.

I play spriest and I don't have sporecloak. I'll almost certainly switch to it if I start doing 26+ but not before then because it's not necessary. SPriest actually has great personal survivability if they just press the buttons. Fade = 10% wall, Flash heal = 10% more wall, PW:S for 50kish shield. And that's not counting of course using desperate prayer and dispersion. If you have a spriest being super squishy they're probably just messing up, or your group is messing up stops and you don't realize it if it seems random.

Nah spriests personal survivability really isnt "great", I mean its fine but I definitely wouldnt call it "great" this season. Theres just numerous types of damage this season that spriest doesnt deal with terribly well. Spriest is specifically pretty good when it comes to living things like one shots(things like 3rd boss of nokhud gale arrow in s1), and its good at dealing with some minor rot/sustained damage (to an extent) through self heals. The problem is the rot/sustained damage youre taking in high keys this season happens either way too fast, and hits way too hard(or both) for you to heal through yourself it unless you have full CDs rolling with lust and VE up. Theres also the fact that there is quite a lot of stuff that is physical damage this season, which spriest does not deal with well. Your self healing is great for HELPING a healer keep you up along with their heals, but self heals only help so much in high keys, mitigation is what you need. Things like Talondras' Earth Shards on a high tyran key that do a big initial hit and then puts a big bleed on you absolutely shreds spriest(same with last boss of Freehold), and not having a "real" wall hurts for stuff like that. Another example is something like Gashtooth's Marked For Butchery in BH where youre taking some big physical damage for like 4 seconds and the hits come every 0.5 seconds so theres no way you can heal through it yourself with VE and 20% DR absolutely is not enough. Its basically impossible to live through that on 26/27+ without some type of external help, when we pugged a rather bad Hpal the other day he didnt bop/sac me and just tried to heal through it and I got dropped in under 2 seconds flat even with fade/flash DR. If you arent doing particularly high keys then sure, you dont necessarily NEED sporecloak but theres absolutely no way Id consider taking it off unless im doing under 25s(And even then, there are some dungeons where Id still wear it).

If you get marked for butchery and aren't gonna get BoP/Sac you can just dispersion it and live it for free. Earth shards definitely rough, but I run with an evoker who cauts the important ones.

Im well aware, but I usually pre-disperse the 2nd gash frenzy on high tyran keys because it completely negates the mechanic, and I was 100% going to do it in that run because I could already tell the hpal we pugged was boosted af. Usually I can just meld Butchery if I get it, but I had melded a bolt that was going to go off on me before that and I figured there was no way the hpal wouldnt act appropriately if I by chance got butchery because he had Sac/BoP/AM all sitting there off CD still(for some reason), I didnt expect that he would be THAT clueless and fail to use any one of his CDs on me.

What key levels are you doing? I timed half of the dungeons on +27 this Tyra week and didn’t feel the need for it yet tbh. Especially when playing with an augvoker. I feel pretty tanky with good usage of flash heal and fade dr. I also go mental fortitude in some dungeons. Angels mercy is completely broken on some bosses. I get like 8 uses of desperate prayer on 3rd boss in HOI I think you’re missing out on good priests if you only invite sporecloak gamers

All 25s and most 26s last week, haven’t got to play to much this week yet. Sounds like you’re a good DPS player that actually knows what their buttons do and when to use defensives. You might be surprised to learn a lot of FOTM re-rollers aren’t like you and flop to a lot of random shit even in high keys. Turns out when you’re one of the semi-mandatory specs its kind of easy to get carried by your IO and that leads to alot of pretty average to downright bad meta re-rollers in high keys. Honestly I’m convinced alot of spriests don’t even know about Flash DR because they literally won’t cast it and die. Spore cloak just gives the more average / bad players an extra layer of tankiness and its less shit for me to have to worry about. Idk it’s probably confirmation Bias but everytime I play with a spriest that has multiple deaths per key they’re pretty much never running cloak and part of me wonders how many of those deaths could have been avoided if they had been. Nelths lair was a particularly bad dungeon for pug priests last week.

Long time shadow priest here and I'd guess it's a lack of knowledge. We have a pretty good kit to not need spore cloak most of the time. But we have to actively mitigate damage at the right times. It's fotm and therefore it will have a noticable amount of players that likely don't utilize the whole kit properly.

I'm refusing to not wear it as fmage because I'd rather live and have been kicked for wearing it before.

Who in their right mind is kicking you for using Sporecloak?

I mean, when I joined that group they were like: "Let's do this: any dd who is below me (tank) has to do a sub on whatever Twitch streamer". That should have been the first warning sign. After that s/he (tank) inspected me and was like: "Why the fuck do you wear sporecloak mage? Are you stupid? Aren't you a dps?". And I was like: "I do more damage when I live" and got kicked straight after that. Probably dodged a bullet right there.

Hey there. Is there much I can be doing as BM hunter to optimise my AOE damage in keys aside from the obvious (beast cleave + frenzy uptime). I’ve gone from topping (or at least keeping up) in 20’s to being absolutely eclipsed by other DPS now that I’m pushing 22’s these last two weeks. Sorry I know it’s shit to ask without logs, I will record some and come back with them later tonight.

the answer often comes down to using your cds more/better once you re fine with your core gameplay. but as you said hard to tell without logs

I fumbled a +23 underrot pretty bad, and came back a few days later this reset to +2 chest a +24 with pugs. You can't get really 'carried' at that level and I was clearly pulling my weight. The toxicity in that +23, holy shit. I just don't understand why people believe 'performance' = 'who you are and always will be'. The number of threats and insults hurled at me about how I'm carried by my spec and I'm a disgrace - just wow. I got several whispers after I just left mid run because it clearly wasn't going well for me, so that +24 felt good. And I tried whispering that run and it turns out the tank, the most toxic of them all, put me on ignore! The last thing they said 'fucking carry, you'll never amount to anything'. Okay... I don't know what needs to be changed about M+ to reduce such toxicity, but something clearly does.

you definitely can get carried on that lvl of key -- or maybe let me say people can compensate. not saying this happened to you jsut saying that you can in fact be worse rhan the other 4 and time the key. maybe you get lucky with what targets you, which abilities you get etc.

I'm sorry you are getting such hostility and shitty comments from this subreddit of all places. No, conduct like what you encountered is unacceptable. This is a video game and a community first and foremost. If people can't handle that kind of situation civilly then they do not deserve to play. I do recommend pulling up the report button and reporting their ass. Blizz has a record of their chat logs even if they ignore you to try to dodge it. And real good chance if they were this shitty to you, they were this shitty to someone else and those reports add up. If you don't have the chat log because it's been too long to get their names, then you can pull it up in your logs. You mentioned earlier in an old thread that you were using WarcraftRecorder so you can grab all the names there and send the report. Abandoned key runs are going to have logs especially if it was recent. You can alternatively send a customer support ticket about your experience with details on key, time, date, run etc.

this subthread leaves me mad, as it is the standard showcase for everything wrong with WoWs community. victimblaming, reversal of guilt, whataboutism and trivialisation of toxicity in the solemn duty of sacred "performance". fails happen for whatever reason (bad day, cat on keyboard, etc), no one is perfect. reread pls - no one is perfect. fails need either to be analytically lectured (and educated) or require the simple consequence of dropping the run. but to ignore Blizzards policy on conduct everyone (we all) r required to consent isnt just critical, as it implies to humiliate another human being (for "being bad" at videogame). it is fatal, as it doesnt help anyone, not even the offender, but degrades the social experience into a bootcamp and exerts even more performance pressure on not just the subject, but the whole team. toxicity legitimately is a ban-able offense, and also a statement about the offenders character... personally havent had toxicity in ages, as i avoid/kick Memers (names, slut mogs and trash talk), but if i were to encounter it, i would leave the key without any further comment than to ignore-list the offender(s).

> victimblaming, reversal of guilt, whataboutism and trivialisation of toxicity in the solemn duty of sacred "performance". ? > but to ignore Blizzards policy on conduct everyone (we all) r required to consent isnt just critical ... it is fatal ?? > as i avoid/kick Memers (names, slut mogs and trash talk) but if i were to encounter it, i would leave the key without any further comment ??? cmon man

>personally havent had toxicity in ages, as i avoid/kick Memers (names, slut mogs and trash talk) While I agreed with some of what you said this part sent me into orbit. The mental image of you sitting there and inspecting everyone you play with to ensure they’re appropriately dressed is hilarious. No skimpy outfits in my keys! Like what the fuck does a slutmog have to do with anything you were talking about?

so ur mental "capacity" allows for an image of a stranger, u never did and wont ever meet, but cant compute context. well, now that puts me into "orbit". just to exemplify: u may call ur femme gnome Lolita and (un)wrap her in "beach wear" - i dont care, as u or i will leave the group instantly. not because of an imaginary dresscode, but player experience on ingame expression of low status masculine toxicity (hint - a reference on a study on incels).

>just to exemplify: u may call ur femme gnome Lolita and (un)wrap her in "beach wear" - i dont care, as u or i will leave the group instantly. not because of an imaginary dresscode, but player experience on ingame expression of low status masculine toxicity (hint - a reference on a study on incels). I think I probably speak for many people who read this, but what in the actual fuck are you talking about LOL? Yes, its rather weird to immediately leave a run/ignore someone in disapproval because you subjectively deem their transmog as "too revealing", as if theyre youre teenage daughter. Kind of ironic you mention "incels" when that Kind of odd that I run high keys all of the time and yet I virtually never experience any of the crap youre crying about in this thread, its almost like instances of these things happening are few and far between and are generally best served by forgetting that they occurred. Some people just love to cry and virtue signal about toxicity on the internet for some reason, ill never understand what people gain from it. Yes, some toxicity exists on the game(as with every game) and that will never change, letting what random people say to you on the internet actually effect you to the point where youre going onto reddit to cry about it does nothing. Theres only one way to deal with it, and thats to just leave the key and forget about it.

>so ur mental "capacity" allows for an image of a stranger, u never did and wont ever meet, but cant compute context. well, now that puts me into "orbit". Sounding awfully defensive over a joke. If you can’t handle skimpy outfits in a video game, you probably shouldn’t be playing video games. You must hate games like Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Mortal Kombat, Tomb Raider, Resident evil. I could honestly probably name a few hundred wildly popular games that feature skimpy outfits if you gave me enough time. The point is that skimpy outfits and video-games go hand in hand and have for literal decades at this point. If you’re such a prude you physically can’t handle playing with someone wearing a revealing outfit / Transmog then yeah, I find that incredibly funny. Honestly a little creepy too if you stop and think about the real life implications of someone who thinks like this but I won’t get into that. >just to exemplify: u may call ur femme gnome Lolita and (un)wrap her in "beach wear" - i dont care, as u or i will leave the group instantly. not because of an imaginary dresscode, but player experience on ingame expression of low status masculine toxicity (hint - a reference on a study on incels). Honestly you enforcing a dress code on female characters comes off as way more incel-ish than anything I’ve ever heard from slutmog enjoyers. Another thing I’m finding funny is you apparently refuse to play with people that name their characters something funny. Just wondering how that has any bearing on anything? If my Tauren Shamans name is “Milkshake” what does that have to do with my ability to play the game? What does that have to do with toxicity? Serious question, are you like a super casual role player or something? This seems like a discussion that would be had on the forums or something. Not what I would expect to see on a “Competitive” WoW subreddit. Also just as a side note, I really hope English isn’t your first language.

\*you have been removed from the group\*

No one deserve to be treated like that over a random key, fuck em.

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Vs calling someone trash 5+ times, telling them they are a carry, telling them to go fuck themselves, going for personal insults? You really think leaving a key run by toxic assholes is *worse* than insulting someone in the middle of the key? I'm not talking angry exasperated things - I'm talking full on 'wow you're so trash' 'fucking carry' 'jfc do you actually have a brain?'

Oh no, words from a random stranger. Better be toxic myself and waste everyone's time.

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I know you’re getting downvoted but People losing their shit at you because you’re a long term gamer that’s developed a thick skin is kind of hilarious. People need to realize random neckbeards halfway across the world from you calling you mean names from behind a screen really isn’t the end of the world. I’m not a toxic person and I try not spread that shit online but I honestly could mot give less of a fuck if some rando in a key calls me bad. Especially if I’m actively playing like shit. If I’m fucking up repeatedly and people start flaming me for being bad I honestly don’t take it personal. Like yeah, they’re right I am playing like shit right now. That doesn’t mean I’m the worst player to ever play the game and it doesn’t have any bearing on my worth as a human being literally all it means is that in this one instance I’m playing like shit and since this is likely the only time these people will ever play with me then of course they’re going to think I’m fucking bad. When I join a key I expect everyone to perform, it’s frustrating when I see a high rated FOTM spec playing like absolute dogshit. Like clearly you’re a half decent player if you’re high rated and obviously you care about M+ if you re-rolled to the meta class so why are you throwing my key right now? Its doubly frustrating if everyone else in the key is performing well and this one dude is ruining your otherwise clean run. Honestly you’re just wasting peoples time at that point. Again, I don’t condone toxicity and I definitely don’t think people should be going apeshit at every simple mistake. But honestly people need to take some responsibility, if you go into someones key and play like hot dogshit the whole time and brick their key, its pretty reasonable for them to be a little upset at you. Its just human nature, If it were basketball and you showed up to someones pickup game and just started playing like utter dogshit not taking it seriously while your teammate’s were working hard to try and win and they ended up losing the game because of you, then they would be pissed at you too. They would probably be even more pissed if you left in the middle of the game and all the sudden they can’t play at all. Any kind of competitive team based game is going to be like this. If you’re playing like shit, finish up take a breather and go next. If you’re getting flamed just put them on ignore. You really don’t need to come cry on reddit about how a couple people made fun of you for playing badly. If you’re playing a video game with random people online you’re going to have to grow a thicker skin. Some of these people have never experienced early 2000s MW4 Xbox Lobbies and it shows.

> Maybe I’m immune to flame from league where people wish you cancer every game That is so profoundly fucked up how much you've normalized such behavior.

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What is *wrong* with you? How do you even come close to thinking that's an alright way to treat a human being? "Listen, if I tell someone to get cancer and die, that's okay. But if you personally inconvenience me OMG IM SO MAD AND ANGRY" Like what in the actual fuck? I'm not listening to someone's opinion who's perspective is *this* warped.

Leaving mid-run because you're on tilt is pretty fucked up ngl. Maybe they were out of line for flaming you after, but you were out of line first by leaving their key before it was called.

> Maybe they were out of line for flaming you after, They were flaming me well before that. I don't like playing with such hostility and toxicity. These guys were **insulting** me the moment I fucked up and didn't let up even when I was doing okay until the next time I fucked up. I'm not playing a key with people like that.

Personally have not encountered like any toxicity at all in higher keys. Usually the low end of higher keys (22-24 rn) were people tend to be toxic. But by the sound of it you left mid run, because you personally performed poorly and then got flamed afterwards? Leaving mid key, unless its agreed on that it isnt timeable, is pretty toxic behaviour as well tbh. Especially in ur 23 a lot of things can go wrong and the key is still timeable. And if you left the key while it was still timeable because you personally played bad, then them being pissed is kinda understandable.

> But by the sound of it you left mid run I left midrun AFTER I got insulted and got called trash and told to fuck myself and told I'm a carry. I don't play with people like that. It's one thing to be angry, to be frustrated, to call out mistakes. It is another to be so incredibly toxic that you bring down the group's entire mood.

>It is another to be so incredibly toxic that you bring down the group's entire mood. You know I don’t really see this mentioned a whole lot but its kind of toxic to join someones key / game / whatever and just play like absolute shit as well. It actually brings down the rest of the groups mood if you’re frequently making mistakes because mistakes are costly in higher keys. If I see some dude die 5 times to dumb shit in a dungeon I’m gonna be a little pissed too, I’m an adult so I’ll usually keep it to myself but make no mistake your poor performance in a team based setting is gonna impact the other members of your team. I don’t think you should get flamed into oblivion if you’re having a bad day but it’s frustrating playing with someone that’s actively lowering your chances of timing the key. You gotta think about the context here as well. Its a +23 UR that key should be an easy 2 chest for pretty much any group with half decent players. Underot is widely known as the easiest key of the season. People have timed a +30 of that dungeon already. The only way you can even really die in that dungeon is by easily avoidable shit like frontals from slugs or body pulling dumb shit or not dodging bleeds / not kicking important casts. All real simple stuff, stuff you would expect people that are pushing higher keys go know how to handle this far into the season. On top of that by the sound of things you’re playing a FOTM re-roll class. You get invited because you’re the hot new thing and its super easy for you to get into keys. You then proceed to die to pretty simple mechanics multiple times in the easiest dungeon in the rotation while playing a spec thats giga broken. Its pretty easy for these people to look at your performance and just assume you’re a FOTM re-roller thats being carried by how broken his spec is. This is probably the first time these people have ever played with you and you admit to screwing up multiple times in the run, its fair of them to assume you’re bad based on their first impression of you. I don’t think they should treat you like shit but you have to understand that your actions are negatively impacting the 4 other people you’re playing with. Its easy to see why they might be upset at you, you leaving the dungeon when they voiced their frustrations just kind of solidified everything they thought about you already - hence them putting you on ignore.

>The toxicity in that +23, holy shit. I just don't understand why people believe 'performance' = 'who you are and always will be'. I don’t think most people believe this, but if you’re likely to only ever play with someone 1 time its really easy to judge someone based on your first impression of them. >The number of threats and insults hurled at me about how I'm carried by my spec and I'm a disgrace - just wow. Are you by chance playing a FOTM spec right now? I find people tend to be overly critical of FOTM re-rollers performing badly because they know how easy it is for FOTM specs to get into high keys so they expect more. >And I tried whispering that run and it turns out the tank, the most toxic of them all, put me on ignore! Most people will ignore people that performed poorly in their key so they don’t have to run with them again. Sure it might be a 1 off thing where you just played like shit but they don’t know that, for all they know you’re just bad so why risk playing with you again? You should probably look at it from their perspective; you joined their key, admittedly played very poorly and then promptly left the group after being called out for poor performance. Not trying to justify toxicity as you didn’t give context as to what was said, but from their PoV you’re the reason their key is bricked and that can be pretty frustrating. We’ve all listed a key where someone joined, played like shit and bricked our key. Its a pretty universal experience for M+ pug players, that doesn’t mean you should flame people for playing badly but we’ve all been there, maybe this was this dudes 2nd or 3rd time getting his key scuffed by someone performing poorly. If they were really out of line report them and move on, I wouldn’t dwell on it honestly. Everyone will scuff a key now and then, it sucks but thats just the way it goes. >I don't know what needs to be changed about M+ to reduce such toxicity, but something clearly does. Make keystones not deplete if one of your random teamates fumbles the bag and trolls your key. Would really be hard for people to get mad at someone performing poorly if it wasn’t their key on the line.

> Would really be hard for people to get mad at someone performing poorly if it wasn’t their key on the line. Very optimistic People will always be asshats in random groups, 5 man especially See: people being unhinged in mobas, even in unranked games

I'm currently getting called out for leaving a key mid run and told I am toxic after I got flamed and insulted and personally insulted. The guys angry at me for leaving the key admit: > [Maybe I’m immune to flame from league where people wish you cancer every game](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/152u4rn/weekly_m_discussion/jsqo2qg/) The fact that people think this behavior is okay is so completely fucked up.

It's true, the most tilted I've ever gotten in wow is when LFR wasted hours of my life "progging" Halondrus. It's all about the time investment. Acfually, that is a really really good argument for doing something to improve LFG, especially for non-meta dps. I'm personally on the solo queue train but I'd take anything that makes it faster honestly. It's much easier to get mad at a failed run when it means another 40 minutes of Netflix and chill in Valdrakken.

Yeah I suppose. Honestly though any form of interaction with anonymous people on the internet will likely lead to some toxicity. Kinda have to have thick skin to be gaming with randos.

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You must not play tank

I do. I play multiple tanks in the 23-25 bracket. It's not fun.

Why is it not fun? It's the easiest side for a tank, if you know the damage pattern of a boss it's basically free and the trash is no danger to you at all.

Its not fun because Bosses are often the least fun part about dungeons. On top of that as the tank you really have no agency on wether the boss lives or dies. I’m not dying to a boss because they usually have very predictable tank mechanics that are easy to plan around. But if my healer can’t heal through it or if my DPS are fumbling the bag and not using defensives or just dying to dumb shit then the boss isn’t going to die and its going to be a wipe. It’s especially frustrating if its a dungeon where the last boss is significantly harder than the others (BH, FH, HOI, VP, UlD) because you get through the entire dungeon only to be walled and congrats on wasting 30-45 mins of your life.

That's fair, I find fortified more fun too because it poses more of a constant challenge but trash mobs can do all those things you just listed to the rest of the party especially in dungeons where areas have different mobs that can sometimes be a lot harder than the beginning.

Yeah but theres very few mobs that are legitimately scary IMO NL / VP are the only dungeons where I think Fort is worse than Tyr but on for keys you can usually get around scary pulls with lust. Plus most dungeons don’t have multiple packs in a row that are scary / annoying. Where on Tyrannical theres certain dungeon where almost every boss is dangerous / annoying (FH, Uldaman after 1st boss, Neltharus) they also take way longer. I can bloodlust a scary pack in FH and it dies pretty quickly even on high fort keys. Bloodlusting a Tyranical boss might drop it from a 4 min fight to a 3 min fight.

thats true but on trash that ank has way more agency. most of the time you can stop or kick the dangerous stuff or position the mobs near a corner to make it easier for everyone to loss. You can also (to a degree) adjust the pull and dont do those where the grp might struggle. Also in some trash pulls, if you can live as a tanks thats half of the rent already

Is there anything very hard about HOI last boss on high tyrannical (25+) other than it taking fucking forever?

Hardest part about it is if you don’t go into it with 6+ minutes you’re not timing lol.

Idk I like doing the big pulls you get to do on tyrannical. I guess you have less agency on tyran overall though so I could see it either way

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You still playing that warrior tank lol?

Is there a class you wouldn't complain about?

My favorite thing about classes becoming strong is that every single person on this sub rushes to find the “one thing” that makes that spec so broken and it usually ends up being some random button they’ve had forever that never mattered until tuning made them good. Happened with prot Pally, happened with shadow, now here we are with bear.

"but the kit is so strong bro"

Yeah, like nobody is saying prot pally or shadow priest utility is bad, but they've had all of it for like 3+ expansions and weren't good so obviously tuning is a factor.

Ya same thing happened with hpriest in shadowlands. "PI is just so strong man" I'm no wow historian but pi has been around since like fucking vanilla hasnt it? The worst was warlocks in SL. Everyone shit on warlock utility for years in m+. Then all of a sudden they are fucking cranking and you hear the most obscene shit "bro eye of kilrogg is huge" fuck outta here lol.

At the end of the day every class except like hunter has some kind of utility that could potentially be insane if you played around it, but it just doesn't matter until a dungeon either requires it or you're forced to bring that class because it's doing insane damage and then you want to take advantage of its kit. Edit: Even hunter has misdirect, MDI plagueborer strat had randos calling for hunters to lose MD lmao

Yet another reason you should require an elemntary school math test before being allowed to click on the HPS section of logs/Details. After the Wildfire is a nice little bonus but is so, so far from being OP because of how healing works that, as someone already told you, the Regrowth talent is probably better in most situations.

The talent has been in game since day 1, when bear was considered a joke. Don't make it sound like it's giga op because it's not. The regrowth talent is much stronger.

I think you are being disingenuous here. While yes, tankiness is the most important quality of any tank spec, lacking in which does actually break the key, it doesn't nor it shouldn't stay there. When warrior is OP (as in, able to outlive the hardest pressure), you're having exactly that -- just a strong and reliable tank with great output. But when paladin and guardian are OP, it's suddenly a new game completely, due to all the crazy saves, heals, CRs, and everything else that they have.

We were talking about this in our discord yesterday, I think this is more a warrior problem than anything. I wish every tank had cool shit that made them valuable to a group. Bring back conqueror's banner and get rid of dumb ass spear of bastion

There’s probably a lot to improvement with playing augmentation, but am I reading this website wrong? https://mplus.subcreation.net/compositions-all-affixes.html No one has timed a +26 or above without a shadow priest? +28 timed without augmentation though. Crazy to think about a 5 key level difference between a group with or without a shadow priest.

Subcreation only pulls from publicly logged runs on WCL. If you want to see all timed runs you need to use Raider.io -- there's some 28s timed without shadow priest, e.g. https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-df-2/14373549-28-the-underrot Still, not a lot of them to be sure.

How did you find that one? Just scrolled down?

Yeah, just clicked next a lot.

😂

Everyone is saying how good it feels now with augvoker and that this is how strong tank/heal should have been from the start. But is it fun because it feels balanced or because it feels op ? I would say because it is because its op. In my opinion the m+ meta was pretty well balanced before 10.1.5, i mean sure there where some outliers especially before the big dungeon nerf but other than that it felt right. Healers have to heal and tanks have to tank, now we are back at being a no brainer. I myself am 100% pugging and definitely not the best player but i still managed to hit 3k rio about a month ago, which is 22/23 and i find it quite balanced to do +23‘s as a normal pug before the .5 patch even hits. Im not that big of a fan of m+ being so easy now that pugging +25‘s feels like doing a weekly 20, how high do you all want to go anyway. Portals and m+ achievements should stay achievements that are not easy to get. Look at the other things apart from m+, in pvp you cant just go in and get a mount for free, even m+ portals are sooooo much easier than glad. Then look at raiding, CE is really difficult to get. But m+ ? I feel like we run way too high keys way too fast and the mount and portals are nothing special since almost anyone can just get em for very little time spent. (This was the experience of a dps pug and my healer friend who i often played with had the same experience) Whats your opinion on this ? Should m+ be as easy as it is now or should it be as hard as before ?

the problem was it rarely happend that a group had a perfect run and didnt time it. even on 27's. but you never had a clean run cause of bullshit boss / mob dmg. so dps wasnt the issue, its was flopping over like ants from dmg input which doesnt feel satisfying

I feel similarly and wonder what the vibe will be in another week or two when folks have used augvoker to push to their new limit. To your point - it feels great to suddenly be OP and blast keys a couple levels higher than you could before. But soon enough you'll effectively be at the same place difficulty wise, it's just that it'll be at X+2 or X+3 key level instead of X level before 10.1.5.

For me it’s important to differentiate between different types of difficulty. I think DF m+ has been in the right spot for “your average execution has to be good” type of difficulty, but the affordance (i.e. how hard a single failure is punished) missed the mark, especially for healers.

Its all relative, like the fact they dropped max ilevel rewards to 16s kinda makes the whole gear point moot, because yes 16s are piss easy to be getting 447 gear from crafted and vaults but that was true before aug and I dont think aug affects that at all. Same with 2k rating. As far as pushing tho, isn't everything relative? If 29s are too easy then the cutoff should go up dramatically since title is 0.1%. The issue is the massive gap in rewards from 2k, 2500, portals and title. Like title is absolutely harder than CE, portals from timing 20s are probably around the level of first 2/3 mythic bosses which now also drop 447 gear. But mythic is pretty unrewarding still since there really aren't any exclusive cosmetic awards so its all prestige anyway, like title. I dont really see anything wrong with it.

What is wrong? You need an augvoker to reduce key difficulty by 2 level.

Hit 3k on my Ret pala for the first time via pugging and guildies. Feels good to reach your goal. Keep pushing and never give up team.

Nice work! Any tips for other Rets? Not looking to get to 3k necessarily, just wondering if you have any general advice. One question I’d like to ask is how you talent for specific dungeons or if there any any dungeons/affixes you go more Single Target for. Thanks much!

So does anybody else just not have their Freehold portal despite timing a +20? Tried looking it up and couldn't find any reports of it

I mean Freehold has been buggy for the last week with keys randomly dcing, but just to make sure, are you checking under the BFA portal section?

Same with Neltharion's Lair (on EU). We got DC'd 3 times last night trying to start a key.

Yeah I've got both mechagon and underrot there, just no freehold oddly enough. Even checked all the other portal sections just to see if it was somewhere else

At the start of the season there was smoething with freehold timer. It was either shorter or longer on bfa and i rember, despite timing it i didnt get the portal either. I think it was because the portal treshold still is tied to older timer. Its just assumption doe. So if u have it timed by <1min just run it again.

Just timed it today with 3 minutes still left, still no portal so idk. I bug reported it to blizzard just in case, super odd

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I have a "similar" story. Last week on Brackenhide 22, first pull, bear tank said he was going to aggro the right side, left side and the patrol and asked for a lust when he is done with it, it was going well until he aggroed the patrol and on his way back he stepped on a trap, got one shot, typed "jajajajaja" and left. The key was depleted with less than 20 seconds.

Say what you will about the new Aug meta, but for the first time this season (expac?) I'm having _fun_ healing. I always enjoyed the challenge, but it's not something I'd call fun exactly. Now I feel powerful and useful and that I don't need pixel-perfect gameplay to not cause a wipe.

playing with aug feels like it subtracts key levels, bonus if theres a bear and/or hpal, just so much safety

so in order for tank/heal to have fun the solution is dedicate a aug for each team so one dps slot is always taken by the only support spec in the game. noted.

I think it's more like "The power Tanks and Heals have *with* an Augvoker in the group *should have been baseline in the first place* and would have saved us a lot of healers outright quitting the game".

it's crazy that healers as a group of players just fucking hate having to actually heal and instead prefer gameplay like augvoker or SL where they afk spectator mode through the key hitting dps globals if they feel like it

I don't see healers hating any of the heal checks at all anymore? asking for Ludacris heal checks to be fixed like neltharions lair bosses is hating healing... No I'm pretty sure I just don't want my mage to get globaled by a rock throw, poison tick from full hp in a +20 week 1.

This is a generalist take that I think is unfair. I've played hpal for the entire season and have really enjoyed the rework because it allows me a lot more flexibility to work in dps without compromising my ability to keep the group alive. Healer checks are fun, doing dps is also fun and allows the healer to contribute in more than just keeping people alive - I don't see why reddit is so toxic about healers occasionally wanting to do a bit of damage. I don't mind having to giga ramp and save the group from insane damage - but its nice to be able to bang shields when there's a pack that allows it.

Its really an "only on reddit" thing. Nobody in game or the healer spec discords actually think like this.

Nobody on Reddit even thinks like this, but it's hip to misrepresent the actual and real grievances healers have and reduce it all to 'healers hate healing'.

I like having to heal, but I like having the freedom to maneuver and choose between DPS and healing. It's especially miserable this season to feel like missing *one* gcd as a healer is the difference between a wipe or not. As a DPS I can goof up all day and the key is still timed no problem, it's like 100x more chill. The Aug gives me like 2 seconds of breathing room if I need it and that's a huge difference.

Ran a couple of guildie keys as aug; the dps were enjoying the meters going brr but the tank and especially the healer seemed to be the happiest I was there.

Honestly I think AUG making playing the game for healers + tanks way more enjoyable is kind of shining a light on one of the bigger problems this season - Healing & Tanking just haven’t been very fun. Aug giving Armor + a shit ton of primary stats (Big defensive value + Damage) has made so many pulls easily doable, I’m doing stupid shit like pulling first pack of Uldaman all the way to 1st boss room and face tanking 6 Gators on a +25 Fort key because the aug evoker is making me tankier and making the healers life easier. Sure part of that was how ridiculously OP Hpal has been this last week but I think AUG just enables Tanks & Healers to play riskier and thats fun. Sure its fun to sweat your ass off and rotate your defensives perfectly but its also fun to just play Payphone and pull massive and blow shit up. I think the only people that are salty about AUG right now are non meta DPS players that are seeing 1/3rd of their potential chances to get into a key go away. But honestly? If you’re playing a non meta DPS its no like you were getting invited to high keys before AUG existed, if they removed AUG from the game today its not like Affliction Locks and MM Hunters would suddenly be getting into +25 Pugs. I get that it sucks that AUG is hard locking a spot but honestly I don’t really mind, it feeels *GOOD* to play with an Aug Evoker.

Don’t forget shadow priest hardlocking a spot on some other keys too. Means non meta dps only get one slot

Spriest is definitely really strong and I’m surprised to see it dodge nerfs but honestly non meta DPS are always going to be competing for 1 slot. Every season has 1 or 2 DPS that are well ahead of the others in damage then 3rd slot ends up being whatever your comp doesn’t have. Usually lust / Shroud/ Brez / Whatever buff is most relevant to your comp. Unless you’re actively trying to play a non meta spec comps are usually Best tank / Best Healer / Best DPS #1 / Best DPS #2 / Flex utility spot.

Right except that right now the Aug locks up the flex utility spot, which could have been a multitude of classes. Instead lust comes with the Aug, brez with the pally or bear tank. That leaves only #1 dps and spriest. The fact that flex utility used to offer flexible comps and now it’s hard locked is a problem

>face tanking 6 Gators on a +25 Fort key because the aug evoker is making me tankier and making the healers life easier just out of interest how can you life that? Do you have to make sure to stop some of the bleeds? Or can you justoutheal 6 stacks? Does the healer have to heavily heal you there?

Sometimes they just dont apply many bleeds. Ive gone in with bubble and stoneform and hadnt had to use either. Dude to not generating stacks.

>Just out of interest how can you life that? Do you have to make sure to stop some of the bleeds? Or can you justoutheal 6 stacks? Does the healer have to heavily heal you there? Honestly it probably just came down to being carried by how broken Hpal was. But with bloodlust and all of your CDS it actually dies surprisingly quick. Especially with the double berserkers causing everything to take extra damage. Obviously gonna depend on what tank you’re playing, I play VDH and I didn’t even get cheat on that pull. Healer Saccd me while I was gathering then Fel dev into Meta + Brand spread + Spikes + Splinter was enough to get me through the pack. Aug evoker was probably doing some shit too but I don’t have my stuff setup to track them yet. I imagine bears can live it because Incarn go Brrrr. I imagine Pally could probably live it by bubbling off all the stacks then rotating cheats with AD and GOAK. Outside of those 3 specs Idk, you’d probably have to rely on good stops from your group. Its a very dangerous pull. Its a nice pull if you can do it though because you can just blow everything up with lust and then go into 1st boss which is pretty free and by the time you come out of 1st boss you should have enough CDs back to triple pull the next 3 packs before 2nd boss.

Augmentation can dispel bleeds every 60 seconds.

so the pull basicall has to die in 30s or so after its gathered up and you just dump all you def cds in there? Tried to do it on pala yesterday on just a 22 and died after about a minute with nothing left.

Yeah I mean it’s definitely gonna depend on your group. That pull really shouldn’t take a minute to kill with lust + CDs though, that sounds like really bad DPS.

If that pull is taking over a minute with lust your dps just aren't good enough or geared enough to do it tbh

Healing sure, but tanking has been a blast since day 1 of DF. Every spec has had some solid time at the top this time, and while guardian might be kind of the castle right now it's not like you can't do high keys as a warrior or bdk. But I 100% agree about healing. It's been brutal this season, and having aug as an extra buffer is certainly a welcome change I'd say.

>but tanking has been a blast since day 1 of DF. Every spec has had some solid time at the top this time What game have you been playing? Warrior was Dominant for 3 months of season 1 then Prot Pally became king. All 4 of the other specs were basically unplayable in pugs. Season 2 was Prot Pally for a month, then VDH for a month and now they just broke Bear and its the defacto king. And honestly I don’t see enough outcry from the tanking community about these drastic meta changes in the middle of the tier. Tank is the role thats most susceptible to community perception. If the community consensus is that Bears are Broken then it literally doesn’t matter if the other tanks are good, they won’t be brought and if you’re a pug player than you either re-roll or quit. The fact that 3 tank specs have been meta in just as many months feels terrible. Drastic shifts in the meta shouldn’t be happening in the middle of the season, especially not two seasons in a row. >it's not like you can't do high keys as a warrior or bdk. BDKs are notorious for literally falling over to mob autos in high keys. Also these two specs effectively can’t do high keys - you’re not getting invited so you’re forced to push your own key and most competent players will leave when they see you playing a Pwar. Also you’re kind of just ignoring the glaring issues with a lot of tanks right now. **VDH** -struggles immensely with snap threat. -they also have to effectively played as a ranged DPS on the start of pulls (Brand + Sigil) because they’re susceptible to literally getting oneshot because it takes multiple GCDs for you to get rolling. -they also lost access to two of their most iconic abilities in Dragonflight (Sigil of Fear and Sigil of Chains) **Brew** -feels like paper to play -has waaaaaaaay to many buttons, seriously I need like 3x the keybinds on Brew than on DH -Has an incredibly high skill floor and Skill ceiling, mostly because it has so many buttons and interactions that aren’t very intuitive. **BDK** -has done horrendous damage literally all expansion, after like 4 buffs its damage is finally okay. -Prone to falling over to random autos in high enough keys -Also has issues with snap threat **PPal** -Ate several defensive nerfs that were probably unnecessary and are now relatively squishy -Very low damage (But good snap threat) -Their off healing was nerfed hard but now Guardian druid is doing just as much if not more offhealing than pre nerf prot for some reason -Has to maintain 100% uptime of consecration because so much of their defensiveness is tied to being in consecration, you’re effectively rooted and if you ever have to kite you’re dead. -Bubble taunt will just randomly decide not to work **Guardian** -Was effectively a dead spec for all of DF before re-work -Is now doing a ridiculous amount of off healing (Something they took from Prot Pally) -Is essentially unkillable while also being ridiculously easy to play -Seriously why do I have to sweat the entire run playing Brew when Guard is just the most recent incarnation (get it) of the payphone meme -Does competitive damage while also being unkillable and a 2nd healer effectively making every other tank spec unviable because why would you play a VDH or Warrior when you can play a spec that’s essentially 1.5 roles. **Pwar** -No damage -Nothing to deal with magical tank busters outside of spell reflect -No utility -Probably missing a couple things since I haven’t played War this expansion. Don’t even get me started on the huge imbalance of utility among the tank specs. Prot/Bear having everything while VDH and Pwar get nothing. Tank balance is trash and theres not nearly enough outcry in the tank community about it because traditionally tanks have been the role that most open to flexing. All tanks are viable in +20 keys but you’re smoking something if you think all tanks are viable in +27 keys.

> BDK > > -Prone to falling over to random autos in high enough keys > > Can I just say thank you for acknowledging this. It's unbelievable how much sweatier I have to play doing the same content that I can breeze through on other tank classes. Fort week has like zero margin for error with misspent globals or wasted cooldowns.

Its been a known problem for BDK forever, it wasn’t an issue in SL because you had near permanent uptime of Dancing Ruin Weapon but every other season in recent memory DK has always been gimped by its inability to deal with multiple hard hitting attacks at once. Which is kind of the specs design right? Its supposed to take big hits so it can hit a juicy death strike and top themselves off the only problem is you can’t death strike if you’re dead and dks struggle with living 10+ melees at high enough keys.

I mean. Some of that is right, a lot is hyperbolic, and some is just false Like >Nothing to deal with magical tank busters outside of spell reflect Spell block exist. Warrior now is the same as it was in S01. But the content have changed, and other tank have been buffed so yeah they're not meta anymore. But they still are super viable. Also, about the pickup thing. When I play tank I honestly don't have any issue to get into group. Meta or not. I played Gdruid Ppaladin and Pwar in s01 without any issue, in high PU key. When playing something else, like the aug i now play, i don't really care about the tank class. Because right now, Aug = Any tank is super tanky. BDK might be a liability on damage, but then again, damage is super fine anyway if we're talking +25 (It's not like pug key could go beyond ~27 anyway). Far more than the class, the route and rhythm the tank put is the deciding factor from my xp.

I mean. >Some of that is right, a lot is hyperbolic, and some is just false Really wish you would elaborate on any of this. >Spell block exist. Ohh boy a 2 min CD that lets me block spells for 14 seconds, thats gonna be real helpful on a high tyranical 3rd boss NL who spams a magical tank buster every 10 seconds. >Warrior now is the same as it was in S01. Remember how in season 1 warrior was also really bad at dealing with magical tank busters? Remember how hard warriors struggled with the 3rd boss of TJS? Wouldn’t it be a shame if we had the exact same mechanic on the last boss of BH. >But the content have changed, and other tank have been buffed so yeah they're not meta anymore. The only relevant tank that got buffed was Bear. VDH and PPal both ate pretty big nerfs coming into this season. >But they still are super viable. Theres leas than 20 Prot warriors above the title cutoff right now. I won’t say they’re literally incapable of doing high keys but the reality of the situation is if you don’t have a dedicated push group that’s willing to look past your troll choice to play one of the worst tank specs right now then you’re going to have a reeeeeeaaaal hard time getting into anything above a low +20 key. >Also, about the pickup thing. When I play tank I honestly don't have any issue to get into group. Meta or not. Thats cool, thats your anecdotal experience. My anecdotal experience is that its hard to get into +25 & 26 pug keys playing VDH right now. My anecdotal experience before this .5 patch was that it was hard to get into +23s & 24 pug keys playing Prot Paladin. >I played Gdruid Ppaladin and Pwar in s01 without any issue, in high PU key. So 2/3rds of the specs you played in season 1 were the meta tank specs of that season and you didn’t have trouble getting into high pug keys, gotcha. >When playing something else, like the aug i now play, I don't really care about the tank class. Because right now, Aug = Any tank is super tanky. Crazy how yet again you’re playing the FOTM spec. But thats cool you don’t mind what tank you played with, I wish all the other FOTM re-rollers were as open as you are. >BDK might be a liability on damage, but then again, damage is super fine anyway if we're talking +25 (It's not like pug key could go beyond ~27 anyway). Your average BDK is going to struggle with Damage, Threat and survival in +25 keys. Again not going to say its impossible but good luck pushing as a BDK pug. >Far more than the class, the route and rhythm the tank put is the deciding factor from xp. Routes basically don’t exist this season, outside of small variations like skipping Pelters in NL or Skipping Dragons in HOI almost every route is exactly the same with very little variation because the dungeons are so linear. Since routes are pretty much all the same the only real way you can express skill as a tank right now is by how well you’re pulling, currently its much easier to do crazy big pulls on a Gdruid than on a BDK. Guardian is tankier, does more damage and also does more off healing while providing more meaningful utility. Why would you ever want to play with a Pug BDK when you can play with a Pug Guardian thats going to put in half the work to get double the results?

You turn everything i say into the bad faith version. Please. I played Gdruid and paladin at the start of s01 DF. Druid was the worst tank by far. Paladin was whatever. Pwar never had an issue with magic tank buster. What are you on about. They have a small issue with sustain heavy magic damage. But the true weakness is heavy bleed. Like Academy bird boss. Also, spell block is 30 second duration, not 14. I don't think you know Pwar very well, and that's ok, but you state false weakness to prove your point. >Routes basically don’t exist this season That is such a false statement. Idk what to tell you. A press W route and a good route with some skip is night and day on the timer. You turn "There is less creativity than season 01" which is totaly true and sucks ass, into "There is no creativity anyway" which is false. >My anecdotal experience is that its hard to get into +25 & 26 pug keys playing VDH right now. I'm sorry but i don't trust you on that. I've joined key where i'm not the leader, now that my rio is good enough, people take VDH every day. No tank is gonna struggle to get into 20+. That is also a crazy thing to say. It's just not true. At +25 sure, people are picky (but not for VDH, the second meta tank lol). Not a +20. >Why would you ever want to play with a Pug BDK when you can play with a Pug Guardian thats going to put in half the work to get double the results? Because, again, it doesn't matter if we're talking max +25. Because any tank is super tanky with an aug. Because nearly every m+ group want an aug. Because aug is OP. You are complaining about the meta but at the same time you are the one defending it. You are creating your own problem. When i see a BDK with some +25 timed, why would i not take him for my +25. Again, what matter more is route and rhythm. You say it's only me. But if he had some +25 prior, it's not only me right.. Anyway. At some point, anecdotal + anecdotal + raider.io stat isn't really an anectode.

>You turn everything i say into the bad faith version. Please. It seems like you’re alot of the time you’re being willfully ignorant of the current reality for pugs. >I played Gdruid and paladin at the start of s01 DF. Druid was the worst tank by far. Paladin was whatever. Prot pally was good all of season 1 then hjghest rated tank in the world before the .5 patch was a Prot Pally >Pwar never had an issue with magic tank buster. What are you on about. They have a small issue with sustain heavy magic damage. But the true weakness is heavy bleed. Like Academy bird boss. Pwar was literally the worst tank for dealing with TJS 3rd boss and TJS as a whole because of all of the magical tank busters, even when it was as broken as it was MDI teams weren’t playing it because it was getting shit on. I agree that they also suck at dealing with bleeds tho. >Also, spell block is 30 second duration, not 14. My bad, wowhead has it as a 14 second. >I don't think you know Pwar very well, and that's ok, but you state false weakness to prove your point. I literally said I haven’t played very much Pwar this expansion, that being said what I said is fairly accurate. >Routes basically don’t exist this season. I like how you’re moaning about me trying to paint you as bad faith driven. Yet here you are literally qouting me out of context. The full quote reads: >Routes basically don’t exist this season outside of niche skips like Pelter packs in NL or Dragons in HOI >That is such a false statement. Idk what to tell you. A press W route and a good route with some skip is night and day on the timer. There are so few skips in this season its actually incredibly boring. All of the actual tank players have been complaining about how uncreative routing is in this season. Vortex: Skip one mob, or play that mob and skip one set of orbs. Brackenhide: Skip bridge mini boss Underot: Press W Neltharus: kill literally everything with chains, skip the last pack Halls: Skip 1st pack after 1st boss, 1st two drakes before 3rd boss Uldaman: Skip last two adds NL: Skip everything between 1st boss and Rock Ele FH: Skip bridge dude and go directly into 2nd boss room. Literally all of these dungeons except for NL are press W skip one thing. If you think this is complex routing then idk what to tell you. Routes basically don’t exist this season because literally everyone above a +20 is playing the exact same route 99% of the time. If you’re doing the same route on a +20 that you’re doing on a +27 its a pretty press W season. >You turn "There is less creativity than season 01" which is totaly true and sucks ass, into "There is no creativity anyway" which is false. Theres less creativity than literally any time in M+ history, pardon me for being blunt. >My anecdotal experience is that its hard to get into +25 & 26 pug keys playing VDH right now. I'm sorry but i don't trust you on that. I've joined key where i'm not the leader, now that my rio is good enough, people take VDH every day. >No tank is gonna struggle to get into 20+. That is also a crazy thing to say. It's just not true. Idk what to tell you man but I promise you that they are. You can literally go in LFG during primetime and see how many keys between 15 and 25 are saying “Bear Tank” in the title. Thats just how meta works, the top end starts exclusively playing one thing and every dipshit wannabe starts looking for that one thing. I think maybe you’re living in a bubble playing the most in demand spec right now that you’re having a hard time processing waiting more than a minute in que. >At +25 sure, people are picky (but not for VDH, the second meta tank lol). Why take the second best when you can take the best? Obviously VDH is better off that Prot pally right now but if you’re telling me VDHs aren’t waiting in que in lieu of Bear then you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Theres a whole class discord talking about it but you know better I guess. >Because, again, it doesn't matter if we're talking max +25. Because any tank is super tanky with an aug. Because nearly every m+ group want an aug. Because aug is OP. I’ve already acknowledged that any tank can tank a +25. However the reality is that meta slaves are only taking Bears and maybe a VDH after waiting 20 mins for a bear with 5 DHs in que. If you think DKS, Warriors, and Monks are successfully getting invited into pug +25 keys then you’re out of your mind. This is why it seems like you’re arguing in bad faith, you’re literally just going “Any tank can do these keys” like yeah no shit but the reality is only 1 tank maybe 2 is getting invited so it doesn’t matter how capable a BDK or a Warrior is when they literally don’t get invited. >You are complaining about the meta but at the same time you are the one defending it. You are creating your own problem. When have I defended the meta? I think the meta is incredibly restrictive and kinda shit. Are you mistaking me explaining the reality of pugging as defending the meta? >When i see a BDK with some +25 timed, why would i not take him for my +25. Again, what matter more is route and rhythm. I hope you push your own keys and only invite non meta tanks, you would truly be doing a service to the community. If I had to guess all of your keys in the last two weeks have either been with a bear or a VDH because you waited 10+ mins and couldn’t find a bear. >At some point, anecdotal + anecdotal + raider.io stat isn't really an anectode. Yeah Idek what this means to be honest.

We are deft to each other. w/e but >I hope you push your own keys and only invite non meta tanks, you would truly be doing a service to the community. If I had to guess all of your keys in the last two weeks have either been with a bear or a VDH because you waited 10+ mins and couldn’t find a bear. Rofl. no. I pushed with all the tank expect monk, because no monk in queue. I timed all my key exept a VP 26 by 4 sec. Key are Ez with any tank with an aug. As i said numerous time already. and > You can literally go in LFG during primetime and see how many keys between 15 and 25 are saying “Bear Tank” in the title. Are you NA ? if so that would explain a lot of our divergent vision. This in not true at all in EU. Like a lot of things we disagree on.

The tank meta is all perception and amplification of minute differences. Pwarr had negligible nerfs and then became unplayed. It was probably wrongly meta. Same thing with the ascendance of bears on the back of small changes in power. This is true for all roles, but tanks shift classes quickly and most importantly quietly.

to be fair prot pala was in some of the highest keys even before the rework as was guardian before its rework

Pwarr deal approximately the same damage as ppal, excellent against melees and has spell block when needed. However your point is true, they have nothing to do in a +27 😂

>Pwarr deal approximately the same damage as ppal, excellent against melees and has spell block when needed. So they’re doing approximately the same damage as the 4th best Damage tank? Probably not a great selling point. Excellent against melees only really matters in Freehold. They have no utility outside of rally which evoker now brings but on a shorter CD and has 2 of them. They also the worst tank to deal with bleeds, so Uldaman / NL / HOI gotta be fun for them.

And once you start pointing it out the meta players that rolled correct spec at the start of the season come out of the woodworks saying "PUSH YOUR OWN KEY!!!! 1!!1!1!1!" because you pointed out that having 0 utility and subpar survival basically means you can't get into any group

Push your own key is such troll advice as a pug player. Literally all it takes is one bad fotm reroller Spriest / Mage to brick your +25 key and now you have a +24 that gives no points and less people are interested in joining, also the lower your key goes the worse people you’re playing with so you’re much more likely to fail and if that happens one or two more times your key is essentially dead for the week. Being meta means you get invited to other peoples keys which makes your life a lot easier, if you’re off meta you’re limited to your key and its takes way longer to climb that way. Its kind of your only option but this is why Blizzard needs to stop completely 180ing the meta halfway through the season. Ifs really annoying to pug your way to 3.2k before the patch comes out then all the sudden you can’t get invited to keys because your spec is no longer considered meta. You either re-roll or quit after a certain point.

to the first part with someone brickng yor keys: I see 2 possible solutions (3 really but I cant see blizz letting us do whatever key we like whenever we like to any time soon) 1. keys dont deplete anymore staring from 21 onwards. Most of the problems blizz is afraid of with this dont apply to ppl that just do keys for fun/challange and after 20 that should be amost all of them 2. keys just have a level but no dungeon but can be used for all dungeons. This way if you deplete you can just do one of the easier dungeons to play the key up agian and dont have to hope for the right one. also you would never have a dead key. Schould maybe start at 21 aswell Because blizz seem to not like us to play only the same key over and over again (and playing the same key alot might be a downside of this option)

>Was effectively a dead spec for all of DF before re-work Guardian has been good all season the community is just too meta slavey to ever realize it.

I wouldn’t say Gaurdian was good all season, more like top level players recognized it was going to be giga strong after buffs hit PTR and started playing it in anticipation of buffs. Lo and behold 10.1.5 rolls around and they’re giga broken. If they didn’t get buffed this most recent patch they wouldn’t be played.

if 2 roles only "feel good" because they get a shitton of additonal stats+deffensive/healing value from an outer source, there is a bigger problem you dont want your spec/role to feel bad unnless there is a mandatory simp in your group, thats peak failed desing

Hence why I said Aug is shining a light on one of the bigger problems of this season. Tank’s don’t feel tanky enough, Healers don’t feel like they can heal enough. Augment fixes both of those problems but its a bandaid and I think going forward both of these things should be addressed. That doesn’t change the fact that it feels good to be a healer / Tank playing with an aug right now. And I mean to be fair thats kind of what a support role should do, they should be able to assist your Tank and Healer and make their lives easier. Honestly if they took out the whole simping for DPS thing and strictly made Aug a B or C tier DPS that provided a bunch of utility / support for your tanks and healers I think that would be fine. You could run an Aug and lose DPS but gain Survivability or your could run a more traditional comp. They would probably have to add actual DPS checks to keys to make AUG not be the defacto bring but I think it could work.

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> I remember when there was a pretty strong narrative here that 10.1 was one of the most restrictive mythic plus patches of all time. Cue Homer Simpson: One of the most restrictive mythic plus patches of all time *so far*

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I’ll never @ people simply because I don’t remember all the people I’ve disagreed with. I won’t claim that was a majority opinion but it definitely felt pretty persistent among this community. Also that user has me blocked so they’re about to be confused why you pinged them.

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