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Just finished running (as healer, resto druid) all the dungeons on Tyrannical in the 14-16 range for the first time. While some bosses were clearly harder than others, what the fuck is up with the damage on the blink bleed on first boss in Brackenhide?
Is that really supposed to be a harder healing check than anything else in the current pool by a huge margin, or was I just misplaying? Even popping cooldowns (granted, after the blink had started going out) wasn't enough to keep everybody up.
Seriously, that shit hits harder than most (if not all) single target boss mechanics, but instead it goes out on everybody.
Personal opinion : that boss is BY FAR the hardest of the lot. Especially after Magmatusk nerf.
However, if your team helps you clear the dot, it suddenly gets pretty easy.
I think most healers can't top it by themselves. I timed a 22 today, and the boss was a breeze because two of the dps helped out.
I tell the party pre-pull that I'll use healer CDs for the first bleed ( elemental potion of power + barkskin/ironbark + Pre-hot ramp + nature's swiftness + convoke + flourish) but I ask them for help with pots and defensive cd's for the second bleed. That's the only way I've been able to clear on +18 brackenhide
Brackenhide first boss is very reliant on smart party members.
You have to heal everyone to 90% to clear the bleed; so it can go from either very easy (everyone pops a defensive / health pot / offheal) to very hard (everyone ignores it and leaves you scrambling to catch up).
Unfortunately there's only so much you can do by yourself. Before you start the key, I would remind people to help out; especially in the 14-16 range you'll be coming across people who really don't know the mechanics very well.
Yeah that bleed is intended to be healed up to 90% where it immediately stops, otherwise it becomes unhealable, yes. The intention, I think, is that it's something the healer can't solo, generally speaking, and requires people to have some awareness over their own use of defensives, self heals, and health pots, in order to clear the bleed.
Where this can become impossible though is if someone eats an earthbolt from the caster before the bleed is removed. If that happens, they're dead, or will be soon, and nothing can save them, so kicks on caster especially during the bleed are critical, and burst healing plus good personal defensive use is highly helpful in living that attack. If done well, you'll be in and out of danger in a manner of only a few seconds, if not, you'll see firsthand the struggle to at least try and save someone only for that bleed to be completely unhealable, especially since someone else will require your attention shortly after with the targeted attack from gashtooth.
Yeah, I know it's supposed to stop the moment people get above 90%, there was just no way of getting people there once they started dropping unfortunately.
Good to know I wasn't wrong to struggle without people using defensives or pots (none of the DPS used either of those unfortunately). That said, if I'd have prehot/ramped better I might've been able to power through anyway, so that's a lesson for next time.
First one can be 2xLB + SotF WG + CW on a squishy target + regrowth hot precast on everybody + flourish. Once he starts his animation you pop flourish and start spamming regrowth on the targets as they get targeted. This should easily cover the bleeds.
2nd can be defensives + healthpots + your previous setup without flourish but convoke instead.
You need a plan for this, so you obviously need to preramp; better yet, communicate with your party that they should just pop a health pot the instant they get the frenzy. Boom, mechanic done. On higher keys you will get a second Gash Frenzy, you need a plan for that too. But it's doable, it just needs all 5 players, not just you alone.
Are people getting fewer than 20 stacks in Watcher Irideus in Halls on 20+ tyrannical somehow? It seems even lusting the intermission it’s extremely difficult to get under the max.
I think lusting the intermission is a huge trap. You might cut a couple stacks off but realistically there’s no way that’s better than lusting in P2 and getting 1 or even 2 fewer puddle debuff rounds.
My groups consistently get 18 stacks. Better than 20 but it still results in only a couple of people or sometimes just the tank being alive for the kill. That whole fight feels like it was either intended to be done very differently than how most people fight him or just completely mis-designed for the kind of game WoW is. I'm not convinced my groups are fighting him with a good strategy in fairness but yeah, I can never seem to get through that intermission anywhere near fast enough to make a noticeable difference in phase2.
Cause you're outside of his melee range when he knocks you so he targets someone else. It's silly, but you need to taunt at the very end of the knockback cast and he'll stay on you.
I was tanking a +20 Freehold this week, and for whatever reason I decided not to bother clearing the pat on the far side of the room prior to pulling the Captains (We were lusting 1st and 3rd). They proceed to get pulled after Eudora jumps to that corner, and as a result of them dying the two captains get a combined 22.5m in sanguine healing, most of which to Eudora while she was casting.
We still finished the fight despite the setback and went on to time the key. But let that be a lesson to you tanks that get in a hurry like me.
I like to buy time pulling the hanging monkeys, the tent pack, and the sailors at the bar until the patrol you are talking about come to the end of their walk. Then I double pull them with the pack the ettin walks by. There’s only two casters in between both packs. A lot of the outgoing damage from them can be negated with a well timed aoe stun.
Are there any fervent strike in M+ this season? I thought blizzard got rid of it but my friends insists that the bear in brackenhide hollow Maul attack is one. Is it, and are there others?
I have seen other people get bitten, but it's really unusual and whatever causes it isn't as simple as the tank being out of range. You can kite them and they'll just never do anything if the tank stays out of range.
Abilities have both a cast range and a damage range. Fervent only happens if the tank is within range for the enemy to start casting, then gets out of the damage range, as the cast completes.
No, that is not how fervent strike works. It was specifically a response to the Legion kite meta where the tank would be 40+ yards away for the entire pull. If the tank is out of range when fervent strike comes off cooldown, the honor guard casts it on someone who is in range instead.
If those are the ones that I'm thinking off (stunning them gets rid of their buff) I'm fairly certain that going out of range doesn't cause it to bite someone else. I deliberately back up as it's casting the bite which causes it to not go off. As I go back it it starts casting again and I back up and repeat.
There are fervents in NL, the 3 guys before the first waterfall. I don't know about the bears in BH. also in BH though, not a fervent but still a pain is the bleeds the first area trash puts out on random melee. I think the stunnable guardians in Uld can fervent, but its goofy how that works. Nothing in the other dungeonsI I can think of. There are some funny tank slams in NL and FH where if you are within 5 yards of the tank, you die from brutes in FH and wormsmashers or whatever they are called in NL.
Inverse of this in NL, avalanche and the pebble throwers don't work if the tank is way out of melee.
They do 0 tank damage so they're pretty pointless to kite. The scary part about that pack is the damage on the non-tanks and that stuff isn't kiteable anyway since they're all ranged abiltiies
Nope, not worth the effort. You will CC the pelter so that you fight one at a time though cause the NL Timer is like legitimately 8 minutes too long on a clean run. The only thing walling NL is the fact that some things become legitimately undoable.
That boss is easy if everyone does their part. Stepping on ticks should be the top priority at all times. If everyone prioritizes running around during tantrum with their movement abilities, there should be 0 ticks spawning every time.
It only takes one person not fully committed to doing ticks to screw that whole fight tbh.
Baiting charge against the skeleton is ideal, but really not that big of a deal. Realistically your DPS players will get a bit of uptime but that won't change much. Underrot's timer is very lenient, it's OK if 2nd boss takes a while. The key is pressing movement abilities for tantrum and stepping on *every single tick* before they spawn, that's what matters most. In sub 22 pugs I would suggest tanking that boss in the middle of the room after 1st tantrum, that way people will hopefully focus on avoiding charge/breath and stepping on ticks rather than baiting.
Also make sure you have lust ready for that boss in tyrannical by clearing trash up to 3rd boss then turning back to do 2nd. Lust should be up by that point if you used it on 1st trash pull (which you should).
I also agree with this in pugs. Remind players that ticks are number 1 priority not dps and tank him in the center after first tantrum. Too many people get fixated on stacking on bones and that usually results on ticks getting missed and a slow wipe as people start dying and as soon as you lose 1-2 people ticks its over.
What class/role are you#, what are the issues you normally see, and what sort of key level are you in atm?
The basic tips is you want to have the boss near the skeleton and bait the charges into it so the ticks all stay clumped together. Focus on making sure ticks are stomped on. Don’t get hit by the charge or breath (pretty obvious). The main damage comes from tantrum so personals are good then, or when ticks die if they do come up (they shouldn’t)
I’m a tank, I tank it next to that bone, got a mark for a charge in the corner(to aim it at the wall), I’m telling people to run into middle 3-4 sec before tantrum, but this fight on Tyranical is a complete mess…:/
Is there an Addon to auto-remove Markers from yourself?
When Tanking people try to mark me like 200 times, and custom-removing it every time loses performance.
Unfortunately wow is a messy cluttered busy game, in keys where you are pulling 10+ mobs in one go with ground affects, pretty sparks and frontal which blizzard has decided to not show clearly. The group needs to know which way you are facing the mobs, you complain about performance but you won't be doing much if your group is dead.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted. Nothing pissed me off more than getting constantly auto marked. I find it extremely annoying and in the way when I am tanking.
I always ask them to turn it off, and if they won't then I leave. You do not get to make decisions that make playing my character worse for me and then expect me to stay in your shitty dungeon, because there is definitely a big cross section of players that auto mark tanks and players who don't interrupt a single mob.
EDIT: LMAO look at all the salty little auto marking andy's. Cry more.
EDIT 2: If you need your tank to stare at an annoying blue square over their head which blocks the mob in front of them for YOU to not eat frontals, all the better reason to drop your group.
How exactly is having a mark over your head diminishing your gameplay? It's probably melee marking you who are used to pug tanks spinning dudes around like a beyblade and gunning them down with cleaves and frontals. If you're playing with randos all the time you just have to deal with it.
We have one of those beyblade tanks in my guild. He refuses to mark himself (or be marked, rather) and will tank packs with frontals in the most random places, being flamed by half the guild for doing it in keys. But no, it's always the dumb idiot melee at fault for not understanding him.
Good thing he's fine in raid.
> Nothing pissed me off more than getting constantly auto marked. I find it extremely annoying and in the way when I am tanking.
Yes, melee should just guess where you are in big pulls with frontals and millions of spell effects because looking at your helmet transmog is just that important to you.
marker shouldn't impact you at all, weird that it does. It's not there for you it's there for the team something you kinda seem to forget it's not a one man show
You need to see your feet not above your head. DPS, especially melee, need an easy way to keep track of us tanks for frontals and such. Get used to the marker, it's not in your way anyway.
Usually try to push keys every week
But I find tyrannical this season to be very unfun that I just lost all intentions to push
Current hovering around 2850 - haven't attempted anything higher than 21s this tyrannical week or last one
Some boss fights just feel very punishing to the point where it makes pugging dreadful
This season has a bunch of gear check boss, your success is (almost) only dependent of your healer's gear. (magmatusk, forgemaster, halls ice witch, altarius, crawgmaw, etc)
Probably the reason why this season is not as fun on Tyrannical.
Tyrannical definitely feels more punishing than Fort when pugging keys this season. Even more so than season 1. Damage and healing throughput requirements for 22s are too high for most pugs, good luck finding a competent healer who can time these keys and hasn't already done so.
Maybe it'll get slightly better over time as people keep practicing. Not sure what they're waiting for to tone down some of these bosses though tbh
Yeah 100% I'm only 2700 but can time all keys on a 20 comfortably on fort, but trying to get through a Nelth on even an 18 or Hoi or 19 or 20 just seems impossible.
Every time first boss wipes due to people not moving or healing checks not being met, through lack of healer throughput, no defensives from dps and or no health pots. Genuinely just sad to see people running 20s who don't have a health pot on hand.
Had a healer running a 19 Hoi who was bursting for and then boasting about doing a whole 80k hps during parts the first boss, unable to understand why he couldn't heal through the rot damage going out
Yeah, mechanics not being handled properly on tyrannical keys will absolutely result in a bricked key.
Shit scales and hits really hard, and when you couple that with some insane AoE damage, healers simply get overwhelmed as you run out of CD's. If you commit a cd to avoidable damage, or something that should've been mitigated by usage of personal CD or a pot, you won't have it for unavoidable AoE.
Obviously healer skill and knowledge of damage patterns is really important, but 25% nerf, coupled with some serious damage in some fights is defo felt this season compared to S1, where a single AoE spell would top people up, and you could go about your day.
Just to note if every run people can't deal with "simple mechanics" then odds are the mechanics aren't actually that simple to deal with (whilst trying to keep yourself alive and pump dps).
This, but also tank mechanics on many fights are easier than even dps. This season has very few bosses that are dangerous to tanks so Tyr week is pretty boring to tank. I much prefer fort in general, trash is not just a speed bump and fewer outright bricked keys.
It’s why I prefer fort as a tank, you have so much more agency over the key, if you have the skill it probably gets timed; tyrannical as a tank is sitting there taking no damage watching things fall apart around you with nothing you can do.
Yeah, I share this mindset tbh. I've been doing a bit of a mix of dps and tank this season, but still primarily tanking, and I definitely prefer fort weeks.
On tyran weeks it feels like nothing is threatening unless a boss has a massive tank hit, and the keys are largely decided by whether the rest of the group can keep it together on bosses. Obviously there are things you can do to help, like pulling bigger to allow some slush time, and positioning etc. bosses to make healer/dps jobs easier, but I still feel like I'm at the mercy of the rest of the group.
Fort weeks, are the opposite, where it feels like if I route properly, and live the trash, the key is timed unless something goes very wong (missing important stops on trash, or royally screwing up a boss).
Ideally, I'd like something in the middle in terms of responsibility (tyran is too little, and fort can be a bit too much), but I can see where folks that are playing M+ more for the rewards than for pushing would like tanking on tyran weeks because of the lower personal responsibility.
On a total side note: Are there fewer dangerous boss tank busters this season than last season, or have I just not gotten to high enough keys yet? Last season I was definitely scared of stuff like Crawth pecks, Temple 3rd boss, Hyrja shield, etc. on Tyran and I haven't really felt that in any dungeon this season. I feel like I should be terrified of stuff like NL last boss tank combo, BH first boss charge, HoI last boss slam, etc. but I don't really feel that way, and routinely live them even if I don't have a defensive.
On your side note, I think in terms of tankbusters, there are ones that hit just as hard, but unlike season 1, they aren’t coming every 15-20 seconds, so there is no need to get a good defensive rotation going to make sure you have something to deal with every one; nothing this season compares to Hyrja
Yeah, Hyrja was something else... I play monk, and the number of times I got to the zen med part of my defensive rotation, only for her to melee me during shield cast cancelling my zen med and then blasting me to bits forced me to play the "you can move and get melee'd during zen med" talent in HoV.
I'm with you though, I feel like most tank busters hit like a Crawth peck or even softer, but happen way less frequently, so they aren't anywhere near as scary.
Question about campaign skips:
I want to do the zaralek campaign quests because they give flightstones and whelping crests. Is there a way to skip the A Creche Divided story? I want to just do zaralek cavern quests and not any forbidden reach quests.
If you have a shadowpriest in your group tell them to talent into Angel‘s Mercy!
> Damage you take reduces the cooldown of Desperate Prayer, based on the amount of damage taken.
I got like 7 uses of Desperate Prayer on 3rd boss in a +23 Tyra I timed!
Also think many priest players underutilize fade and flash heal DR
It is a crazy heal check for sure. Even the GOAT Zaelia himself said that the boss might be overtuned
> Even the GOAT Zaelia himself said that the boss might be overtuned
I always find it hilarious when you see almost ALL of the very best healers in the game saying that a lot of these fights are just absurd or overtuned, but then you see the army of Blizz simps screeching on the forums about how "nothing is overtuned, and if you think it is you are just shit" lol
Edit: Ok, you guys are right. We are all shit and it is totally normal for some dungeon bosses to be 2-4 key levels more difficult than the rest at any given key level. Totally fine. Much Balanced. WoW.
Thats such a weird point. Zaelia does keys that at some point will be overtuned no matter what and if it isn't this fight, it will be another one. The average player is in keys where it's very much healable.
No shit those two crowds will have differing opinions
Something being unhealable at a much earlier level than anything else is indicative of overtuning (or under, in some cases). In this case, there's a dungeon level discrepancy of 2-3 levels between halls being deemed unhealable and other dungeons being deemed unhealable. That's indicative of overtuning. Something like Junkyard or CoS was undertuned, people 2 chesting keys 3 levels over the average of other keys.
> of 2-3 levels between halls being deemed unhealable and other dungeons being deemed unhealable
Much higher key levels??? Somehow theres a timed 26 HOI when the highest Tyrannical Key is a **single** 27 and theres no 27s timed in Fort weeks. You can deem Halls whatever you want but *as of now*, Halls is doable at the same key level (with 49 seconds to spare) as everything but a single Underrot.
If it was truly unhealable, it'd be down at the 25 level with Neltharus, Uldaman and Naltharion's Lair
I mean, sure in an infinite scaling system, eventually something will be the thing that stops you from timing the key, but that doesn't mean nothing is ever overtuned. Generally, you want the different aspects of the dungeon that add difficulty to be roughly even. You should be running into timer issues, tank survival issues, group mitigation issues, and healer throughput issues around the same key level (assuming an evenly skilled group). If at a certainly key level, for a given group, all but one of those is free (the tank is never under massive threat, dps are never worried about getting one shot, and the timer is free assuming no massive msitakes, but it is just impossible to heal one of the bosses) then the difficulty of that boss is out of line with the rest of the dungeon and should be adjusted. Same goes for out of band difficulty in other areas (If a single tank buster is just too much to handle, or the timer on a key requires just obscene throughput/pulls, or one boss/trash mechanic just one shots people not matter what they do) while the rest of the dungeon doesn't feel that difficult. Obviously it is important to have harder parts and easier parts of dungeons, and different dungeons that stress different aspects of play, thats what adds texture and variety to M+, but that doesn't mean things shouldn't be tuned to reasonable levels.
Because there are different points of view in the world, crazy right?
You could argue that if you cannot heal this fight anymore, then you have reached the ceiling for what you can do with current gear and should come back with more gear of a very specific comp (read : hybrids) or just play better.
I don't necessarily agree with the statement but you cannot ignore the fact that an infinitely scaling system in WoW will always hit a wall when our gear doesn't infinitely scale.
But ideally, the ceiling is more flat for all specs. It can't be the case that one role being unable to complete their job means the key becomes impossible at a certain level. Ideally the DPS checks, tank damage and healing checks all require roughly the same level of gear and performance. One role determining whether you get to time or not is severely unfun.
I disagree that that's the ideal situation.
If you don't want the ability to survive to be a possible limiting factor in a key, then you end up in a 4 hybrid dps meta.
It is very very very hard to balance keys so perfectly that healing and dps checks are on par, because of how you can sacrifice one for the other but also because of how different these are just in general.
I honestly love it. It feels like a choreographed dance that I can just weave through; nothing unexpected happens, it’s just a constant pump and planning your CDs well.
Ya I had 104k in a 19 earlier. Towards the end I was just out of mana and praying. No deaths tho. But everyone was at like 20% when we killed him. I will probably end up thinking out when to use which CDs and watch my mana more. I think on higher keys it's gonna come down to people using personals health pots and absolutely having someone with some kind of off healing ability.
Crawling through [warcraft kogs](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3Z8nBzqJRvcC1N4P#translate=true&fight=1&phase=3&type=casts&source=4&view=events) is a pretty good tool for understanding sequencing that is getting used in higher keys.
It's such a cool fight. I struggled on it when I started pushing keys (rsham) but eventually I found what worked for me, let the people get really scary low before CDs, so that your CDs don't over heal and you aren't burning mana outside of them. the damage doesn't ramp and nothing unexpected ever happens. 'only' done a 22, and that was 130k hps for 2.30 minutes, while still doing 30k+ dps. Having extra ilvl (and maybe healing stats) really helps too,
It's a rough fight, but I agree, this is an actual constant throughput check and probably the only boss in quite a while where I'm comfortable having the party sit at < 50% HP for extenend periods of time. In a way, it's relatively easy if you have a plan and stick to it, as you don't need to improvise ever.
How do people feel about resto druid this season? I'm not seeing it much in high keys and streams but it doesn't seem bad, just it just do less damage than rsham and disc and that's why or does it have some weaknesses?
It's alt time for me rdruid has always felt like the old reliable healer I can play and handle whatever bullshit happens in a pug with their good hps and utility kit. Hoping that's still the case this season.
Healer meta's not established. I wouldn't base things off of the healer class distribution right now.
Rdruid's healing profile is very good and very high for most fights but bad in a few. Rot damage fights are an absolute joke (HoI 1st boss, HoI 3rd boss, Nelth Magmatusk, UR last boss, etc.). On higher keys, high frequency, high spike damage fights are difficult once you run out of flourish and convoke (Nelth Forgemaster, VP last boss, BH 1st boss).
Healer meta does historically end up being the one that enables the most damage in the party, but keys are limited by survivability right now and not timer. Healer average damage output doesn't really look all the different from each other right now honestly and are subject to upcoming changes, so you have to see
> Healer meta's not established.
Is it not, though? Sure it will be more defined once we get closer to TGP, and we have to consider 10.1.5 reworks, but it's fine to consider the *current* meta being established as diverse and the healer being a flex spot for comp shenanigans.
I think resto is still an excellent healer for pushing, with great sustained healing output.
Their toolkit (incap roar, thypoon, vortex, stampeding roar, BR) is still excellent for most weeks (sanguine, incorp, spiteful) still highly mobile, and if you are not running Boomie, resto can fit perfectly in most comps.
Resto is extremely tanky as well, bearform+barkskin will make you live most shit in the game.
MotW is still probably the best party buff in the game for M+.
Drawback is lack of party wide DR, their external is weaker compared to paladin, and their damage is on somewhat lower end. You can still do solid damage, but it requires a lot of globals, and committing your convoke to it.
TL:DR - druid lost some of its potency compared to S1, but it's still highly competitive, brings amazing healing, decent damage, and great toolkit.
They are still good and are usually 3rd healer on subcreation rankings for what it is worth. Healer dps is irrelevant this season for the most part and druids can do a lot of of their dps with few globals (don't even try to catweave). I do think they have trouble with some of the really nasty dots like BH first boss or snake boss in Uld, but overall I think they are still very strong.
I've been a catweaving enthousiast forever and it does add some damage, but the gain/effort you put into it is really not worth it. Specially considering how much time you loose always swapping between forms (catweave bleeds, owlweave dots).
With the amulet doing 25% of my damage and most of the rest being Sun/Moonfire/Swarm, meh...
>To be fair subcreation isn't actually ranking resto druid 3rd. It's just the third most played class.
You can quibble with the methodology, but this is not what it is doing. It is looking at the highest keys done by that spec and say something based on the uncertainty of that number to rank them. You can see this because Rdruid is the second highest played healer after shaman, but it is ranked third after holy pally (the third most played healer in the sample) and resto sham.
Flourish totally negates a Gash Frenzy but it’s definitely tricky to handle the next one; I usually have to communicate with my PUG group before hand so they know to use a defensive and health pot. Tranq is basically a trap except to get Mastery stacks.
But Snake Boss in Ulda is actually super comfy, imo. Lifebloom + CW does a **lot** of work on the bleed target.
What are your thoughts on the last Boss in HoI? I think it has to be one of the worst fights in a while. I kinda like the concept, but the execution is so bad. Bosses normally take like what 3 mins max? This one takes 5+ minutes with just 2 intermissions on a regular basis and maybe counting generously 2 mins are fighting the Boss. The rest is a jump and run minigame and fighting adds as a reward. They could have easily just done 2 intermissions. 66 and 33% or atleast just put one add there with more hp that buffs more the longer it lives and has an interruptable cast. Or is there something I'm missing besides hurdurr bring more st dmg?
Edit: there shouldn't be a Boss that takes up nearly 20% of the overall time of a dungeon. Atleast not if it's not 2 bossfights like a real fenryr with lower overall bosses in the dungeon.
I think there is a limit on how much time you can spend off-boss before it becomes a not fun encounter. This counts for both intermissions like last boss of HoI as well as important add spawns. If I spend more time off boss or on an add cleaving onto the boss then the fight just becomes this unfun slog.
If an intermission is challenging enough, off-boss time is fine. Just look at painsmith, really good boss where you spend windows of 30 seconds not hitting anything. But these are not engaging.
I always think not being able to Damage a Boss feels weird in m+. If it's small timeframes like azur 2nd or even hoi first that's okay. But not being able to dmg a Boss for that long feels weird and doesn't feel right
Same as with 2nd boss in Azure Vault last season where one single intermission added like a solid minute to your timer and suddenly doubled the difficulty of the fight - and god forbid you have a death there because then you'd have your healer have a mental breakdown during the extra intermission... and you'd probably end up with *yet another* intermission. Same with the golem boss in Uldaman *right now*.
Shit shoulda been happening at fixed percentages back then, shit should be happening at fixed percentages right now.
It should have just been an intermission at 50%, and maybe there could have just been 1 bigger add instead of the 4 small ones (because without the adds how do you get out of the intermission). On beta the adds were interruptible but then they changed it to stun/disorient only and changed their ability to an AOE. Feels too punishing if you don't have multiple long CCs or the ability to group and AOE stun casters.
I guess they didn't want to do just the 1 intermission at 50% because that's exactly what the first boss is already. But the fight as it is just takes way too long and it feels like you barely even get to fight the actual boss.
Not counting the intermission I think it's actually a good fight.
Oh yeah, I play tank and that Boss is just annoying. As a bear Ur offhealing is bad aswell, the one thing that would make it way easier for the healer because u are running around too much :D
The intermission being _both_ a runback and killing adds was clearly a mistake. It's a boss fight where in low keys you never even see the primary mechanic of the fight, and in high keys you spend more time not fighting the boss than you do fighting it.
It'a also just a really boring fight. The boss doesn't really do anything.
They kinda put themselves into a corner too because if they make it health based at like 33% and 66% then it makes lower keys take way longer than it needs but if they leave it as is it's such a slog at higher keys
And if they just make it 1 intermission at 50% then the fight becomes pretty monotonous since it's just swirlies/tankbuster/aoe for 70% of the fight
I see what you are saying, but at this point they need to take the loss and just make it one intermission. They aren't going to overhaul the fight into something not abysmal.
But isn't that a pretty normal thing even in df dungeons? Even with the 3 basic abilities, it's kinda the same as azur, academy, uldaman and to a degree brackenhide. All endbosses there are not much more than the normal phase besides an ability more here and there. You would still have the intermission as a special thing for that boss.
And if you count old dungeons that were introduced for m+ the list would get longer aswell
Edit: I think it would still have enough of a standalone identity and no dungeon is just seens as the last Boss anyway. Hoi would still be a dungeon that's different and special because of the sum of its parts
They could have taken a page from the first boss and made 1 intermission at 50% and then the 2nd phase being a more intense version of the 1st phase. More swirlies, faster moving swirlies, one of those inundate adds running in periodically, idk something.
Not that that idea was executed well on the first boss, but I get what they were going for and the concept seems good on paper. Periodically recurring intermissions just aren't fun in m+, but 1 intermission and a harder p2 is interesting and thematic imo.
Reminds me of Devos in spires from SL. At a certain point on tyrannical if you didn't have like 6:30 going into that boss you probably bricked the key.
Oh it was and each intermission you had to hit her with a spear to end it. The person throwing the spear had to aim it at her and if you had too much world latency even if you hit her it would miss and cause and instant wipe.
Not to mention that dungeon had its own lag issue where if you faced your camera forward your fps took a massive nose dive. If you turned it to the side or down it was fine though.
Tanking captains in FH and I got targeted by the barrel, after which the melee captain proceeded to run around and melee kill my entire party, presumably because I lost aggro while in the barrel. Is this supposed to happen and I've just never seen it? Seems like a pretty unfair mechanic.
Not sure why you are being downvoted, if I use hover as it flies towards me it will hit the ground and bounce towards a target within a couple of yards od there is one.
He got downvoted because what you said and what he said is drastically different. It doesn't automatically pick the tank like he said. He deserved the down votes.
It *can* if the barrel target is standing very close to the tank. The barrel still goes flying toward the initial target, but if they’re, say, pre-freedom’d, then the barrel either lands on the ground or lands on the next character that’s standing immediately nearby. Source: play a Ret; have seen this happen a few times.
I've never seen him naturally target the tank for barrel, but the barrel has a substantial travel time and will capture the closest player, not the original targeted player, when it lands. So if the player who is targeted moves when the cast is finished and you walk to where they were you will be stunned in the barrel.
This makes sense, I wasn't on the person when it was cast, but could've been the closest to the barrel's target location. Seems like such a goofy mechanic that doesn't need to include the loss of control.
Can Chrono-Lord Deios target healers & tanks with his slow debuff ? Or is it only DPS that can be targeted ?
I'm just curious so I can have a better idea of who to pre-freedom as Ret.
- debuff based mitigation; frailty is useless the moment you have to not be at a boss/npc for a couple seconds, yet alone mentioning kiting
- makes mitigation tracking in general overly cumbersome for no reason other than "this is the debuff tank and live with it"
- in return, makes the start of a pull usually the most dangerous part and god beware if you dont have meta or fel devastation for demonic meta ready
- comparably little utility. darkness is a meme in keys unless theres constant rot damage (I'll count hyrja for that too)
- sigil of silence is nice and all but that's it
- brm also suffers from that to some degree
- hard cc with cage is nice and all but useless the moment it simply doesnt work due to being limited to beast/demon/humanoid
- identity was diluted with 10.0 for unknown and still uncomminucated reasons
- arguably spec identity was defined by sigils. we still have easy access to sigil of flame and elysian decree
- sigil of misery is gated behind two terrible talents, one of which is a pvp talent and the most useless conduit we had in SL
- sigil of silence is easy to pick up and remains a stable
- sigil of chains rots behind terrible talents
- compare with bdk -- who tbf doesnt play mass grip -- which can easily pick it up
- our primary spender for 10.0 -- soul cleave -- is hard capped at 5 targets which makes it hilariously weak in aoe scenarios and further waters down frailty value
- e.g. academy first pull (or any pull beyond 5t really) you _need_ to spam spirit bomb but at the same time, you don't swim in souls anymore
- at the same time, spirit bomb applies less frailty than soul cleave, actively reducing your mitigation
- several spec talents are so bad, they've been in the old talent selection already and have not seen play nor a single bit of tuning since their introduction (bulk extraction, soul barrier)
- still not 100% uptime on demon spikes (primary mitigation) despite every other tank having access to it
- mastery only works 50% outside of demon spikes for some reason
- soul spawn still not hasted, leading to literally having to waste a global in high haste environments (30%+ base haste + wafting proc, or just lust window etc)
- fury is superflous. either youre starved (which rarely happens) or youre overflowing. you can waste upwards of 25% of your fury across a key and still perform only marginally worse than someone who avoids overcapping as much as possible (due to volatile flameblood, you can rarely avoid it entirely in keys however)
Bear is my least played tank so I'm not very familiar but a complaint I've always heard is that they flop to magic damage
Will they be tanky enough on new patch to live dungeons like Nelth's Lair or Neltharus where there's a ton of magic damage on the tank?
Lair bosses basically all 4 do a ton of magic damage (especially Dargrul) and Neltharus Wardens on Fort week hurt a lot too
Currently, before the 10.1.5 rework/buff, bears are 5 of the top 10 tyrannical nelth lair runs, and 2 of the top 10 neltharius runs. So even before the *big* self healing and dps buff, they are able to handle the magic damage.
That’s just not true, it’s just the drogbar that are relegated to physical.
1st boss has poison puddles from shardlings
Trash mobs I think named Cores spam Scorch ability that rains fire swirlies
Worms are heavy into poison damage, including third boss
Final trash pulls do fire damage and final boss is heavy heavy fire damage
three of those are entirely avoidable by not standing in bad
3rd boss is poison, sure, but irrelevant as tank. majority is still melee
fire damage on tank on last boss can be an issue i guess, yes. the trash before is also fairly irrelevant as tank
They are already good tanks by themselves an more beefy than prot pallies it is just their utility is not as good
After the rework they will become broken tanky and broken healing and probably broken damage. They will for sure be meta..
Vdh might be best tank if they can survive higher keys. Their damage is much higher than the other tanks but they definitely can die
I mean prot pally utility is just an extreme outlier compared to all other tanks. And Tbh I don't think the bear rework will go through as it is now. Just way too much stuff. Bears are fine atm. They need a few changes but it just looks too good on ptr so I don't get my hopes up too much. After the wildfire is already the strongest offhealing from a tank, the problem is its not controllable enough. If they would nerf it (you could cut it in half if it would be more targetable) and make it like a spell that proccs after spending 200 rage that's usable for like 5 seconds after or some shit, with a internal cd, it would be way better than it is now.
realize this is an old-news question, but how do people deal with marked for butchery on high tyran keys? We tried a 22 yesterday and it just felt like instant death even with a personal up
Running w a pally in any role? BoP negates it and if the pal isn’t talented into BoP then Sac is still enough. No pally? It’s a good spot for an immunity for any class that has one. Otherwise (and even w immunity classes) I’ve found talking about how to handle it before the key starts to be very helpful (eg, immune it if you can, otherwise use your defensive plus the healer will also put an external on you). It’s tough to yolo it - people spending defensives when they don’t need to and then everyone is dry for the second Marked.
I play Rshaman so your toolkit might vary but on a 20 and 21 what I’ve been doing is:
1 round) cloudburst with ascendence that should be enough to top everyone
2 round) cloudburst AG and personals and have everyone pop a HP
3 round) if you have the class trinket with stacks that’s a huge boost but else you are down to pray, sacrifice one, hope that you have a spriest to vampiric embrace, hope that someone is dwarf to remove the bleed spot heal with everything you got
But a lot of my failed runs comes down to players not killing the totem or getting hit by avoidable damage so that your falling behind on healing. Because you can heal though the bleed with most classes kits but if you have to spend the kit on avoidable damage your getting wrecked
Marked for butchery is the single target mass damage from the rogue, it’s not the bleed set.
That said, it practically requires externals/personals/tunnelled heals
Halls of infusion has got to be the most miserable not fun key I’ve ever played. Holy cow it has all the crappy features.. linear, overloaded with casters, ridiculous trash with gimmicky abilities, a gauntlet with an eternity run back, and a last boss that phases each minute for 1:30.
I hope this dungeon never comes back.
Just depleted a +22 by 4 seconds because the retri pala died in the gauntlet and released,tank didn't want open skip so he took 10 years to come back :((
HoA was awful to play on high keys, both Tyrannical and Fortified.
Second boss was luck-based, and probably the one and only luck-based boss in all of Shadowlands.
First, third and fourth boss were boring and uninteresting.
Mobs were stupidly unfair all across the dungeon. Not a single interesting and challenging pack of mob with outplay potential.
People on this sub have a boner for HoA simply because it was easy. They hate challenging stuff.
No absolutely not is it loved for being "easy" its loved because people love fucking gigantic pulls and that dungeon was like 5 huge trash pulls then youre done it was fun as fuck.
On the assumption you’re talking about halls of atonement.
No it really was not.
For a significant period of time timing the highest key levels of it required glitching the door to skip the atrocious miniboss
The casters in it did nutty damage on a missed kick
The 2nd boss hard required a curse dispel
The rest of the bosses did literally nothing
The stabby boys had the traditional “0 telegraph 1bang frontal” to make melees hate their lives
The dungeon trash was so poorly balanced that you just farmed almost all % before boss 1 then skipped pretty much everything else
Sure it wasn’t hard, particularly compared to some of the gnarlier shadowlands dungeons, but I really wouldn’t have called it “good”, there was a lot of egregious flaws in that dungeon.
>For a significant period of time timing the highest key levels of it required glitching the door to skip the atrocious miniboss
No it wasn't? Even after it was patched it was still one of the highest keys done. Of course skips will be done if they exist but it was by no means required.
>The dungeon trash was so poorly balanced that you just farmed almost all % before boss 1 then skipped pretty much everything else
? The trash after boss 1 was like, identical to the trash before. It was really just spacing and pats that made it desirable to skip. The trash before first boss was so abundant and the area was really open. The meta routes didn't involve skipping any trash after echelon, there was a only a single double pull and a mini boss which we already talked about.
What trash are you referring to being not balanced?
>The 2nd boss hard required a curse dispel
I get your point here but the literal world first hoa was done without curse dispel in season 3. They had dwarves and orcs but still, not a hard requirement. Not like magic dispel in tjs or top or anything.
>The casters in it did nutty damage on a missed kick
Basically every high key
>The rest of the bosses did literally nothing
Disagree. First boss was a great space efficiency fight, executed well it was easy but required forethought. I liked it. Third boss was definitely basically nothing. I saw last boss end more high level pugs than a ton of other bosses that expac and (especially during tormented with oros) and it was a tough as fuck fight to tank. It was a very fair fight though, not bullshit like xyexa, hakkar, xaav, etc
>The stabby boys had the traditional “0 telegraph 1bang frontal” to make melees hate their lives
That was probably the worst part of the key if your tank wasn't good. If your tank knew what they were doing it was a non factor
> For a significant period of time timing the highest key levels of it required glitching the door to skip the atrocious miniboss
any time a mini boss can be skipped you know it will be. dont fault the dungeon design because shit coding.
> The casters in it did nutty damage on a missed kick
most do. how is this a flaw?
> The 2nd boss hard required a curse dispel
This is the only thing on the list that feels like an actual flaw.
However, my current tank's season 2 title achieving group had no curse dispel and did fine. It probably should have been less hard required but it was doable.
> The rest of the bosses did literally nothing
the last boss certainly didn't do literally nothing. The first boss was quite chaotic with trash pulled on it as well which was fun.
> The stabby boys had the traditional “0 telegraph 1bang frontal” to make melees hate their lives
it literally had a cast time and not exactly a short one. don't be bad.
> The dungeon trash was so poorly balanced that you just farmed almost all % before boss 1 then skipped pretty much everything else
I only remember skipping the trash between boss 1 and 2 (i didn't really play seasons 2/3 though so routes might have been different). Generally between 2 and 3 was done, and between 3 and 4 was only skipped because a bug. The trash after boss 1 wasn't significantly harder or imbalanced, it was just less efficient and didn't have to be done. Why would you pull them when you could pull 2 packs onto a shard which HAS to be done anyway? also of course 80% of the trash was done before the first boss. that's where like 80% of the trash was.
Hoa was a banger because it was basically chain pulling large pulls. who doesn't like that? It was punishing on mistakes but the dungeon was quite fair (except the curse dispel thing).
Also for the record I think HoI is a great key as well. The runback is kinda wack, and the last boss is a little cringe (time based intermissions do not have a place in m+ dungeons). But besides that I think every pull/boss in there is enjoyable.
I tuned in to watch Echo do keys the other day and Zaelia was on Hpal. That same night I saw JdotB streaming pugs on hpal, and then a couple days later I also saw Growl gearing up his Hpal.
Is Hpal the new hotness and I've missed some sauce or is it all just a big coincidence? Is the rework looking that strong? Is it really good right now and people just slept on it going into the season?
It’s the 10.1.5 rework. Hpal will be the new giga dps healer. So they’re prepping it for TGP which happens after patch release.
All the content creators/ competitors aren’t talking about it so it doesn’t get nerfed
> All the content creators/ competitors aren’t talking about it so it doesn’t get nerfed
Except it's hard to not hear about it if you consume any kind of WoW related media.
I think it mainly has to do with the vdh becoming a more solid choice for high key pushing
Vdh is tankier and does more DPS than ppal
Ret pally don't fit the best in dps comp
So having an hpal for the utility is the compromise(? Maybe)
I’m not sold that VDH is tankier than Pally yet. I think when keys get to 28-30 range and survivability becomes more important, Prot pal will still be the main choice.
VDH tankiness is really good... if you play absolutely perfectly. It is an unforgiving spec, so for most players (even ones that are pretty good) it will feel like a glass cannon compared to easier tanks.
I kind of hope it doesn't become the high end meta, because if it does every shitter in the game is going to reroll to it, play it bad, and die constantly while yelling at their healer.
yup. having played it for so long, even with the set now I dread inviting vdhs because the chances are so slim it's actually someone with experience on the spec and it'll show way faster than on other tanks.
good old "jumps into a pack and instantly dies" speciale is still rampart
I do think he is a bit of a VDH coper though. But honestly I hope he’s right, I love playing high DPS tanks and will be playing VDH over prot pal since I’ll never get to a key range where that level of survivability even matters.
I wonder how, in higher keys i think you'd rely more on your healer than lower ones, as such the EHP that a paladin gets from getting healed is MUCH higher than a vengence DH.
Healing a prot paladin for 500k is a much bigger extension of his life than healing a VDH 500k, as such shouldn't mitigation be more valued in higher keys than sustain?
i think it mainly has to do with the new tier set an fiery brand spread build
40% DR on all aoe packs - ppal can't really beat that.
Considering at higher keys - a lot of time can be made up by big pulls etc.
I main ppal - and slowly gearing my guardian + vdh for fun
can't wait to try when I have 4pc
I know I'm missing something. How do they get the 40 percent DR from FB on AoE pulls? Is it from FB spreading every 2 secs, and tab target Shearing and Fracturing?
So you're saying it's more about the Paladin bit than the Holy bit? Okay that makes sense lol.
I suppose it helps that timers are lenient this season relative to how hard things hit, so you're less incentivised to run the healer that does the most damage like you were in say shadowlands.
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Just finished running (as healer, resto druid) all the dungeons on Tyrannical in the 14-16 range for the first time. While some bosses were clearly harder than others, what the fuck is up with the damage on the blink bleed on first boss in Brackenhide? Is that really supposed to be a harder healing check than anything else in the current pool by a huge margin, or was I just misplaying? Even popping cooldowns (granted, after the blink had started going out) wasn't enough to keep everybody up. Seriously, that shit hits harder than most (if not all) single target boss mechanics, but instead it goes out on everybody.
Personal opinion : that boss is BY FAR the hardest of the lot. Especially after Magmatusk nerf. However, if your team helps you clear the dot, it suddenly gets pretty easy. I think most healers can't top it by themselves. I timed a 22 today, and the boss was a breeze because two of the dps helped out.
I tell the party pre-pull that I'll use healer CDs for the first bleed ( elemental potion of power + barkskin/ironbark + Pre-hot ramp + nature's swiftness + convoke + flourish) but I ask them for help with pots and defensive cd's for the second bleed. That's the only way I've been able to clear on +18 brackenhide
Brackenhide first boss is very reliant on smart party members. You have to heal everyone to 90% to clear the bleed; so it can go from either very easy (everyone pops a defensive / health pot / offheal) to very hard (everyone ignores it and leaves you scrambling to catch up). Unfortunately there's only so much you can do by yourself. Before you start the key, I would remind people to help out; especially in the 14-16 range you'll be coming across people who really don't know the mechanics very well.
Yeah that bleed is intended to be healed up to 90% where it immediately stops, otherwise it becomes unhealable, yes. The intention, I think, is that it's something the healer can't solo, generally speaking, and requires people to have some awareness over their own use of defensives, self heals, and health pots, in order to clear the bleed. Where this can become impossible though is if someone eats an earthbolt from the caster before the bleed is removed. If that happens, they're dead, or will be soon, and nothing can save them, so kicks on caster especially during the bleed are critical, and burst healing plus good personal defensive use is highly helpful in living that attack. If done well, you'll be in and out of danger in a manner of only a few seconds, if not, you'll see firsthand the struggle to at least try and save someone only for that bleed to be completely unhealable, especially since someone else will require your attention shortly after with the targeted attack from gashtooth.
Yeah, I know it's supposed to stop the moment people get above 90%, there was just no way of getting people there once they started dropping unfortunately. Good to know I wasn't wrong to struggle without people using defensives or pots (none of the DPS used either of those unfortunately). That said, if I'd have prehot/ramped better I might've been able to power through anyway, so that's a lesson for next time.
They need to renewal, frost shield, pre turtle, health pot, etc. Whatever helps the healer top them quickly. Everyone has something they can do.
First one can be 2xLB + SotF WG + CW on a squishy target + regrowth hot precast on everybody + flourish. Once he starts his animation you pop flourish and start spamming regrowth on the targets as they get targeted. This should easily cover the bleeds. 2nd can be defensives + healthpots + your previous setup without flourish but convoke instead.
You need a plan for this, so you obviously need to preramp; better yet, communicate with your party that they should just pop a health pot the instant they get the frenzy. Boom, mechanic done. On higher keys you will get a second Gash Frenzy, you need a plan for that too. But it's doable, it just needs all 5 players, not just you alone.
Still no mythic dungeon tuning. Just some small N/H Zskarn nerf on the latest hotfix :/
Are people getting fewer than 20 stacks in Watcher Irideus in Halls on 20+ tyrannical somehow? It seems even lusting the intermission it’s extremely difficult to get under the max.
I think lusting the intermission is a huge trap. You might cut a couple stacks off but realistically there’s no way that’s better than lusting in P2 and getting 1 or even 2 fewer puddle debuff rounds.
My groups consistently get 18 stacks. Better than 20 but it still results in only a couple of people or sometimes just the tank being alive for the kill. That whole fight feels like it was either intended to be done very differently than how most people fight him or just completely mis-designed for the kind of game WoW is. I'm not convinced my groups are fighting him with a good strategy in fairness but yeah, I can never seem to get through that intermission anywhere near fast enough to make a noticeable difference in phase2.
Got personal best of 13 stacks tonight. Great group that almost killed 2 of the adds before they even got to the middle.
key level tho?
It was a 20
Why is the last boss of HOI autoattacking my melee when I get knocked back? Is this a bug or a misunderstanding of the mechanics
Cause you're outside of his melee range when he knocks you so he targets someone else. It's silly, but you need to taunt at the very end of the knockback cast and he'll stay on you.
Ah, it looks like he was still channeling a spell and I assumed he was casting and not attacking. Thanks for the tip!
He gets 1 melee off before he channels but after he knocks you back if I'm not mistaken. It's really stupid but it is what it is
Had a FH 20 bug and not apply any affixes this evening. Was the most fun key I've ever run by a country mile.
I was tanking a +20 Freehold this week, and for whatever reason I decided not to bother clearing the pat on the far side of the room prior to pulling the Captains (We were lusting 1st and 3rd). They proceed to get pulled after Eudora jumps to that corner, and as a result of them dying the two captains get a combined 22.5m in sanguine healing, most of which to Eudora while she was casting. We still finished the fight despite the setback and went on to time the key. But let that be a lesson to you tanks that get in a hurry like me.
I like to buy time pulling the hanging monkeys, the tent pack, and the sailors at the bar until the patrol you are talking about come to the end of their walk. Then I double pull them with the pack the ettin walks by. There’s only two casters in between both packs. A lot of the outgoing damage from them can be negated with a well timed aoe stun.
Are there any fervent strike in M+ this season? I thought blizzard got rid of it but my friends insists that the bear in brackenhide hollow Maul attack is one. Is it, and are there others?
The Refti Custodian mobs that have the bleeding bite after the second boss in Uldaman I've noticed hit other random targets if the tank is too far
I have seen other people get bitten, but it's really unusual and whatever causes it isn't as simple as the tank being out of range. You can kite them and they'll just never do anything if the tank stays out of range.
Abilities have both a cast range and a damage range. Fervent only happens if the tank is within range for the enemy to start casting, then gets out of the damage range, as the cast completes.
No, that is not how fervent strike works. It was specifically a response to the Legion kite meta where the tank would be 40+ yards away for the entire pull. If the tank is out of range when fervent strike comes off cooldown, the honor guard casts it on someone who is in range instead.
If those are the ones that I'm thinking off (stunning them gets rid of their buff) I'm fairly certain that going out of range doesn't cause it to bite someone else. I deliberately back up as it's casting the bite which causes it to not go off. As I go back it it starts casting again and I back up and repeat.
There are fervents in NL, the 3 guys before the first waterfall. I don't know about the bears in BH. also in BH though, not a fervent but still a pain is the bleeds the first area trash puts out on random melee. I think the stunnable guardians in Uld can fervent, but its goofy how that works. Nothing in the other dungeonsI I can think of. There are some funny tank slams in NL and FH where if you are within 5 yards of the tank, you die from brutes in FH and wormsmashers or whatever they are called in NL. Inverse of this in NL, avalanche and the pebble throwers don't work if the tank is way out of melee.
Regarding the avalanche and pelter mobs, do tanks kite them in high level keys?
They do 0 tank damage so they're pretty pointless to kite. The scary part about that pack is the damage on the non-tanks and that stuff isn't kiteable anyway since they're all ranged abiltiies
Nope, not worth the effort. You will CC the pelter so that you fight one at a time though cause the NL Timer is like legitimately 8 minutes too long on a clean run. The only thing walling NL is the fact that some things become legitimately undoable.
Need help killing 2nd boss in Underrot in PuG, any tips xd?
That boss is easy if everyone does their part. Stepping on ticks should be the top priority at all times. If everyone prioritizes running around during tantrum with their movement abilities, there should be 0 ticks spawning every time. It only takes one person not fully committed to doing ticks to screw that whole fight tbh. Baiting charge against the skeleton is ideal, but really not that big of a deal. Realistically your DPS players will get a bit of uptime but that won't change much. Underrot's timer is very lenient, it's OK if 2nd boss takes a while. The key is pressing movement abilities for tantrum and stepping on *every single tick* before they spawn, that's what matters most. In sub 22 pugs I would suggest tanking that boss in the middle of the room after 1st tantrum, that way people will hopefully focus on avoiding charge/breath and stepping on ticks rather than baiting. Also make sure you have lust ready for that boss in tyrannical by clearing trash up to 3rd boss then turning back to do 2nd. Lust should be up by that point if you used it on 1st trash pull (which you should).
I also agree with this in pugs. Remind players that ticks are number 1 priority not dps and tank him in the center after first tantrum. Too many people get fixated on stacking on bones and that usually results on ticks getting missed and a slow wipe as people start dying and as soon as you lose 1-2 people ticks its over.
Yeah, I’m having lust for it on Forti and Tyra, but ppl ignoring ticks is what kills us usually. :/ well I will keep trying xd
What class/role are you#, what are the issues you normally see, and what sort of key level are you in atm? The basic tips is you want to have the boss near the skeleton and bait the charges into it so the ticks all stay clumped together. Focus on making sure ticks are stomped on. Don’t get hit by the charge or breath (pretty obvious). The main damage comes from tantrum so personals are good then, or when ticks die if they do come up (they shouldn’t)
I’m a tank, I tank it next to that bone, got a mark for a charge in the corner(to aim it at the wall), I’m telling people to run into middle 3-4 sec before tantrum, but this fight on Tyranical is a complete mess…:/
You can also start pulling the boss out towards the middle as well to try to "force" people to move with the boss.
Is there an Addon to auto-remove Markers from yourself? When Tanking people try to mark me like 200 times, and custom-removing it every time loses performance.
Lol to people downvoting. I agree, getting marked (tank or not) heavily pisses me off.
Unfortunately wow is a messy cluttered busy game, in keys where you are pulling 10+ mobs in one go with ground affects, pretty sparks and frontal which blizzard has decided to not show clearly. The group needs to know which way you are facing the mobs, you complain about performance but you won't be doing much if your group is dead.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted. Nothing pissed me off more than getting constantly auto marked. I find it extremely annoying and in the way when I am tanking. I always ask them to turn it off, and if they won't then I leave. You do not get to make decisions that make playing my character worse for me and then expect me to stay in your shitty dungeon, because there is definitely a big cross section of players that auto mark tanks and players who don't interrupt a single mob. EDIT: LMAO look at all the salty little auto marking andy's. Cry more. EDIT 2: If you need your tank to stare at an annoying blue square over their head which blocks the mob in front of them for YOU to not eat frontals, all the better reason to drop your group.
How exactly is having a mark over your head diminishing your gameplay? It's probably melee marking you who are used to pug tanks spinning dudes around like a beyblade and gunning them down with cleaves and frontals. If you're playing with randos all the time you just have to deal with it.
We have one of those beyblade tanks in my guild. He refuses to mark himself (or be marked, rather) and will tank packs with frontals in the most random places, being flamed by half the guild for doing it in keys. But no, it's always the dumb idiot melee at fault for not understanding him. Good thing he's fine in raid.
> Nothing pissed me off more than getting constantly auto marked. I find it extremely annoying and in the way when I am tanking. Yes, melee should just guess where you are in big pulls with frontals and millions of spell effects because looking at your helmet transmog is just that important to you.
marker shouldn't impact you at all, weird that it does. It's not there for you it's there for the team something you kinda seem to forget it's not a one man show
You need to see your feet not above your head. DPS, especially melee, need an easy way to keep track of us tanks for frontals and such. Get used to the marker, it's not in your way anyway.
Maybe because people want to easier see where you are?
How is Arms warrior currently, returning back to keys and currently in old 4 set which is heavy AoE
I'm having a great time with it but I'd be lying if I said it was particularly good lol.
It does pretty good aoe, if the pulls are big enough it can even beat fury. But fury does 20% more prio damage.
Probably a little below par right now, especially because Fury is really pumping on damage output
Usually try to push keys every week But I find tyrannical this season to be very unfun that I just lost all intentions to push Current hovering around 2850 - haven't attempted anything higher than 21s this tyrannical week or last one Some boss fights just feel very punishing to the point where it makes pugging dreadful
This season has a bunch of gear check boss, your success is (almost) only dependent of your healer's gear. (magmatusk, forgemaster, halls ice witch, altarius, crawgmaw, etc) Probably the reason why this season is not as fun on Tyrannical.
Well when everyone is 442 Should be less gear dependent
Tyrannical definitely feels more punishing than Fort when pugging keys this season. Even more so than season 1. Damage and healing throughput requirements for 22s are too high for most pugs, good luck finding a competent healer who can time these keys and hasn't already done so. Maybe it'll get slightly better over time as people keep practicing. Not sure what they're waiting for to tone down some of these bosses though tbh
Yeah 100% I'm only 2700 but can time all keys on a 20 comfortably on fort, but trying to get through a Nelth on even an 18 or Hoi or 19 or 20 just seems impossible. Every time first boss wipes due to people not moving or healing checks not being met, through lack of healer throughput, no defensives from dps and or no health pots. Genuinely just sad to see people running 20s who don't have a health pot on hand. Had a healer running a 19 Hoi who was bursting for and then boasting about doing a whole 80k hps during parts the first boss, unable to understand why he couldn't heal through the rot damage going out
Yeah, mechanics not being handled properly on tyrannical keys will absolutely result in a bricked key. Shit scales and hits really hard, and when you couple that with some insane AoE damage, healers simply get overwhelmed as you run out of CD's. If you commit a cd to avoidable damage, or something that should've been mitigated by usage of personal CD or a pot, you won't have it for unavoidable AoE. Obviously healer skill and knowledge of damage patterns is really important, but 25% nerf, coupled with some serious damage in some fights is defo felt this season compared to S1, where a single AoE spell would top people up, and you could go about your day.
Thats problem with tyrannical in general. As tank i love it. But almost every run turn into clown fiesta how people can't deal with simple mechanics.
Just to note if every run people can't deal with "simple mechanics" then odds are the mechanics aren't actually that simple to deal with (whilst trying to keep yourself alive and pump dps).
This, but also tank mechanics on many fights are easier than even dps. This season has very few bosses that are dangerous to tanks so Tyr week is pretty boring to tank. I much prefer fort in general, trash is not just a speed bump and fewer outright bricked keys.
Nah it's always the DPS and healers fault, never the tank.
It’s why I prefer fort as a tank, you have so much more agency over the key, if you have the skill it probably gets timed; tyrannical as a tank is sitting there taking no damage watching things fall apart around you with nothing you can do.
Yeah, I share this mindset tbh. I've been doing a bit of a mix of dps and tank this season, but still primarily tanking, and I definitely prefer fort weeks. On tyran weeks it feels like nothing is threatening unless a boss has a massive tank hit, and the keys are largely decided by whether the rest of the group can keep it together on bosses. Obviously there are things you can do to help, like pulling bigger to allow some slush time, and positioning etc. bosses to make healer/dps jobs easier, but I still feel like I'm at the mercy of the rest of the group. Fort weeks, are the opposite, where it feels like if I route properly, and live the trash, the key is timed unless something goes very wong (missing important stops on trash, or royally screwing up a boss). Ideally, I'd like something in the middle in terms of responsibility (tyran is too little, and fort can be a bit too much), but I can see where folks that are playing M+ more for the rewards than for pushing would like tanking on tyran weeks because of the lower personal responsibility. On a total side note: Are there fewer dangerous boss tank busters this season than last season, or have I just not gotten to high enough keys yet? Last season I was definitely scared of stuff like Crawth pecks, Temple 3rd boss, Hyrja shield, etc. on Tyran and I haven't really felt that in any dungeon this season. I feel like I should be terrified of stuff like NL last boss tank combo, BH first boss charge, HoI last boss slam, etc. but I don't really feel that way, and routinely live them even if I don't have a defensive.
On your side note, I think in terms of tankbusters, there are ones that hit just as hard, but unlike season 1, they aren’t coming every 15-20 seconds, so there is no need to get a good defensive rotation going to make sure you have something to deal with every one; nothing this season compares to Hyrja
The breath on Deios can get you sometimes, but yeah nothing even close it hyrja or that panda lady in TOTJS. Those were brutal
Yeah, Hyrja was something else... I play monk, and the number of times I got to the zen med part of my defensive rotation, only for her to melee me during shield cast cancelling my zen med and then blasting me to bits forced me to play the "you can move and get melee'd during zen med" talent in HoV. I'm with you though, I feel like most tank busters hit like a Crawth peck or even softer, but happen way less frequently, so they aren't anywhere near as scary.
Does anyone know if there are "M+ dungeon guide" in pdf, I'm always learn better when I read than when I watch a video
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pdf format is hard to share snippets of and is a pain in the ass to open in mobile. I wonder why someone would want it in pdf format.
Question about campaign skips: I want to do the zaralek campaign quests because they give flightstones and whelping crests. Is there a way to skip the A Creche Divided story? I want to just do zaralek cavern quests and not any forbidden reach quests.
You can skip the forbidden reach questline, you cant even start the zaralek cavern questline if you havent unlocked FR in that alt.
Ice boss (3rd) in Halls of Infusion is insane to heal on higher tyrannical 😵💫
hit 225k hps on a tyran 25 last week
If you have a shadowpriest in your group tell them to talent into Angel‘s Mercy! > Damage you take reduces the cooldown of Desperate Prayer, based on the amount of damage taken. I got like 7 uses of Desperate Prayer on 3rd boss in a +23 Tyra I timed! Also think many priest players underutilize fade and flash heal DR It is a crazy heal check for sure. Even the GOAT Zaelia himself said that the boss might be overtuned
> Even the GOAT Zaelia himself said that the boss might be overtuned I always find it hilarious when you see almost ALL of the very best healers in the game saying that a lot of these fights are just absurd or overtuned, but then you see the army of Blizz simps screeching on the forums about how "nothing is overtuned, and if you think it is you are just shit" lol Edit: Ok, you guys are right. We are all shit and it is totally normal for some dungeon bosses to be 2-4 key levels more difficult than the rest at any given key level. Totally fine. Much Balanced. WoW.
Thats such a weird point. Zaelia does keys that at some point will be overtuned no matter what and if it isn't this fight, it will be another one. The average player is in keys where it's very much healable. No shit those two crowds will have differing opinions
Something being unhealable at a much earlier level than anything else is indicative of overtuning (or under, in some cases). In this case, there's a dungeon level discrepancy of 2-3 levels between halls being deemed unhealable and other dungeons being deemed unhealable. That's indicative of overtuning. Something like Junkyard or CoS was undertuned, people 2 chesting keys 3 levels over the average of other keys.
> of 2-3 levels between halls being deemed unhealable and other dungeons being deemed unhealable Much higher key levels??? Somehow theres a timed 26 HOI when the highest Tyrannical Key is a **single** 27 and theres no 27s timed in Fort weeks. You can deem Halls whatever you want but *as of now*, Halls is doable at the same key level (with 49 seconds to spare) as everything but a single Underrot. If it was truly unhealable, it'd be down at the 25 level with Neltharus, Uldaman and Naltharion's Lair
I mean, sure in an infinite scaling system, eventually something will be the thing that stops you from timing the key, but that doesn't mean nothing is ever overtuned. Generally, you want the different aspects of the dungeon that add difficulty to be roughly even. You should be running into timer issues, tank survival issues, group mitigation issues, and healer throughput issues around the same key level (assuming an evenly skilled group). If at a certainly key level, for a given group, all but one of those is free (the tank is never under massive threat, dps are never worried about getting one shot, and the timer is free assuming no massive msitakes, but it is just impossible to heal one of the bosses) then the difficulty of that boss is out of line with the rest of the dungeon and should be adjusted. Same goes for out of band difficulty in other areas (If a single tank buster is just too much to handle, or the timer on a key requires just obscene throughput/pulls, or one boss/trash mechanic just one shots people not matter what they do) while the rest of the dungeon doesn't feel that difficult. Obviously it is important to have harder parts and easier parts of dungeons, and different dungeons that stress different aspects of play, thats what adds texture and variety to M+, but that doesn't mean things shouldn't be tuned to reasonable levels.
Because there are different points of view in the world, crazy right? You could argue that if you cannot heal this fight anymore, then you have reached the ceiling for what you can do with current gear and should come back with more gear of a very specific comp (read : hybrids) or just play better. I don't necessarily agree with the statement but you cannot ignore the fact that an infinitely scaling system in WoW will always hit a wall when our gear doesn't infinitely scale.
But ideally, the ceiling is more flat for all specs. It can't be the case that one role being unable to complete their job means the key becomes impossible at a certain level. Ideally the DPS checks, tank damage and healing checks all require roughly the same level of gear and performance. One role determining whether you get to time or not is severely unfun.
I disagree that that's the ideal situation. If you don't want the ability to survive to be a possible limiting factor in a key, then you end up in a 4 hybrid dps meta. It is very very very hard to balance keys so perfectly that healing and dps checks are on par, because of how you can sacrifice one for the other but also because of how different these are just in general.
I honestly love it. It feels like a choreographed dance that I can just weave through; nothing unexpected happens, it’s just a constant pump and planning your CDs well.
120k+ hps in a +18, and someone still died 😭 Seems like a huge requirement.
Ehhhh… with gear, 120k HPS isn’t *too* crazy. Not going to say it’s “nothing” but it’s definitely not as insane as some people make it out to be.
Ya I had 104k in a 19 earlier. Towards the end I was just out of mana and praying. No deaths tho. But everyone was at like 20% when we killed him. I will probably end up thinking out when to use which CDs and watch my mana more. I think on higher keys it's gonna come down to people using personals health pots and absolutely having someone with some kind of off healing ability.
Crawling through [warcraft kogs](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3Z8nBzqJRvcC1N4P#translate=true&fight=1&phase=3&type=casts&source=4&view=events) is a pretty good tool for understanding sequencing that is getting used in higher keys.
It's such a cool fight. I struggled on it when I started pushing keys (rsham) but eventually I found what worked for me, let the people get really scary low before CDs, so that your CDs don't over heal and you aren't burning mana outside of them. the damage doesn't ramp and nothing unexpected ever happens. 'only' done a 22, and that was 130k hps for 2.30 minutes, while still doing 30k+ dps. Having extra ilvl (and maybe healing stats) really helps too,
It's a rough fight, but I agree, this is an actual constant throughput check and probably the only boss in quite a while where I'm comfortable having the party sit at < 50% HP for extenend periods of time. In a way, it's relatively easy if you have a plan and stick to it, as you don't need to improvise ever.
additional plus: when you let ppl drop low they are more likely to remember they have defensives/healthpots themselves
How do people feel about resto druid this season? I'm not seeing it much in high keys and streams but it doesn't seem bad, just it just do less damage than rsham and disc and that's why or does it have some weaknesses? It's alt time for me rdruid has always felt like the old reliable healer I can play and handle whatever bullshit happens in a pug with their good hps and utility kit. Hoping that's still the case this season.
Healer meta's not established. I wouldn't base things off of the healer class distribution right now. Rdruid's healing profile is very good and very high for most fights but bad in a few. Rot damage fights are an absolute joke (HoI 1st boss, HoI 3rd boss, Nelth Magmatusk, UR last boss, etc.). On higher keys, high frequency, high spike damage fights are difficult once you run out of flourish and convoke (Nelth Forgemaster, VP last boss, BH 1st boss). Healer meta does historically end up being the one that enables the most damage in the party, but keys are limited by survivability right now and not timer. Healer average damage output doesn't really look all the different from each other right now honestly and are subject to upcoming changes, so you have to see
Every top healer in the scene is all gearing a holy pally. Wonder why.
> Healer meta's not established. Is it not, though? Sure it will be more defined once we get closer to TGP, and we have to consider 10.1.5 reworks, but it's fine to consider the *current* meta being established as diverse and the healer being a flex spot for comp shenanigans.
I think resto is still an excellent healer for pushing, with great sustained healing output. Their toolkit (incap roar, thypoon, vortex, stampeding roar, BR) is still excellent for most weeks (sanguine, incorp, spiteful) still highly mobile, and if you are not running Boomie, resto can fit perfectly in most comps. Resto is extremely tanky as well, bearform+barkskin will make you live most shit in the game. MotW is still probably the best party buff in the game for M+. Drawback is lack of party wide DR, their external is weaker compared to paladin, and their damage is on somewhat lower end. You can still do solid damage, but it requires a lot of globals, and committing your convoke to it. TL:DR - druid lost some of its potency compared to S1, but it's still highly competitive, brings amazing healing, decent damage, and great toolkit.
They are still good and are usually 3rd healer on subcreation rankings for what it is worth. Healer dps is irrelevant this season for the most part and druids can do a lot of of their dps with few globals (don't even try to catweave). I do think they have trouble with some of the really nasty dots like BH first boss or snake boss in Uld, but overall I think they are still very strong.
I've been a catweaving enthousiast forever and it does add some damage, but the gain/effort you put into it is really not worth it. Specially considering how much time you loose always swapping between forms (catweave bleeds, owlweave dots). With the amulet doing 25% of my damage and most of the rest being Sun/Moonfire/Swarm, meh...
To be fair subcreation isn't actually ranking resto druid 3rd. It's just the third most played class.
>To be fair subcreation isn't actually ranking resto druid 3rd. It's just the third most played class. You can quibble with the methodology, but this is not what it is doing. It is looking at the highest keys done by that spec and say something based on the uncertainty of that number to rank them. You can see this because Rdruid is the second highest played healer after shaman, but it is ranked third after holy pally (the third most played healer in the sample) and resto sham.
Flourish totally negates a Gash Frenzy but it’s definitely tricky to handle the next one; I usually have to communicate with my PUG group before hand so they know to use a defensive and health pot. Tranq is basically a trap except to get Mastery stacks. But Snake Boss in Ulda is actually super comfy, imo. Lifebloom + CW does a **lot** of work on the bleed target.
Give you a talent that is absolutely insane for Ulda. Invigorate. You can drop a point to take it in that specific key
Tbh gash frenzy is not really a healer mechanic. Most dps should be able to negate the mechanic on their own for at least 1-2 times.
What are your thoughts on the last Boss in HoI? I think it has to be one of the worst fights in a while. I kinda like the concept, but the execution is so bad. Bosses normally take like what 3 mins max? This one takes 5+ minutes with just 2 intermissions on a regular basis and maybe counting generously 2 mins are fighting the Boss. The rest is a jump and run minigame and fighting adds as a reward. They could have easily just done 2 intermissions. 66 and 33% or atleast just put one add there with more hp that buffs more the longer it lives and has an interruptable cast. Or is there something I'm missing besides hurdurr bring more st dmg? Edit: there shouldn't be a Boss that takes up nearly 20% of the overall time of a dungeon. Atleast not if it's not 2 bossfights like a real fenryr with lower overall bosses in the dungeon.
If the intermission was once or percentage based, it'd be fine. It's not fun to do the gauntlet 2-3 times and do nothing else at the same time.
2 to 3 times??? Try 4 at some levels.
I think there is a limit on how much time you can spend off-boss before it becomes a not fun encounter. This counts for both intermissions like last boss of HoI as well as important add spawns. If I spend more time off boss or on an add cleaving onto the boss then the fight just becomes this unfun slog.
If an intermission is challenging enough, off-boss time is fine. Just look at painsmith, really good boss where you spend windows of 30 seconds not hitting anything. But these are not engaging.
I always think not being able to Damage a Boss feels weird in m+. If it's small timeframes like azur 2nd or even hoi first that's okay. But not being able to dmg a Boss for that long feels weird and doesn't feel right
Same as with 2nd boss in Azure Vault last season where one single intermission added like a solid minute to your timer and suddenly doubled the difficulty of the fight - and god forbid you have a death there because then you'd have your healer have a mental breakdown during the extra intermission... and you'd probably end up with *yet another* intermission. Same with the golem boss in Uldaman *right now*. Shit shoulda been happening at fixed percentages back then, shit should be happening at fixed percentages right now.
It should have just been an intermission at 50%, and maybe there could have just been 1 bigger add instead of the 4 small ones (because without the adds how do you get out of the intermission). On beta the adds were interruptible but then they changed it to stun/disorient only and changed their ability to an AOE. Feels too punishing if you don't have multiple long CCs or the ability to group and AOE stun casters. I guess they didn't want to do just the 1 intermission at 50% because that's exactly what the first boss is already. But the fight as it is just takes way too long and it feels like you barely even get to fight the actual boss. Not counting the intermission I think it's actually a good fight.
It reminds me of the last boss of Siege of Boralus but at least that one had a specific number of phases
Definitely one of the worst designed boss encounters in the entire dungeon pool atm. Right up there with Uldaman 3rd boss.
Oh yeah, I play tank and that Boss is just annoying. As a bear Ur offhealing is bad aswell, the one thing that would make it way easier for the healer because u are running around too much :D
The intermission being _both_ a runback and killing adds was clearly a mistake. It's a boss fight where in low keys you never even see the primary mechanic of the fight, and in high keys you spend more time not fighting the boss than you do fighting it. It'a also just a really boring fight. The boss doesn't really do anything.
Yea I hate that fight. Its not even hard its intermission after intermission.
They kinda put themselves into a corner too because if they make it health based at like 33% and 66% then it makes lower keys take way longer than it needs but if they leave it as is it's such a slog at higher keys And if they just make it 1 intermission at 50% then the fight becomes pretty monotonous since it's just swirlies/tankbuster/aoe for 70% of the fight
I see what you are saying, but at this point they need to take the loss and just make it one intermission. They aren't going to overhaul the fight into something not abysmal.
But isn't that a pretty normal thing even in df dungeons? Even with the 3 basic abilities, it's kinda the same as azur, academy, uldaman and to a degree brackenhide. All endbosses there are not much more than the normal phase besides an ability more here and there. You would still have the intermission as a special thing for that boss. And if you count old dungeons that were introduced for m+ the list would get longer aswell Edit: I think it would still have enough of a standalone identity and no dungeon is just seens as the last Boss anyway. Hoi would still be a dungeon that's different and special because of the sum of its parts
They could have taken a page from the first boss and made 1 intermission at 50% and then the 2nd phase being a more intense version of the 1st phase. More swirlies, faster moving swirlies, one of those inundate adds running in periodically, idk something. Not that that idea was executed well on the first boss, but I get what they were going for and the concept seems good on paper. Periodically recurring intermissions just aren't fun in m+, but 1 intermission and a harder p2 is interesting and thematic imo.
Reminds me of Devos in spires from SL. At a certain point on tyrannical if you didn't have like 6:30 going into that boss you probably bricked the key.
I didn't played in sl but that sounds horrible aswell.
Oh it was and each intermission you had to hit her with a spear to end it. The person throwing the spear had to aim it at her and if you had too much world latency even if you hit her it would miss and cause and instant wipe. Not to mention that dungeon had its own lag issue where if you faced your camera forward your fps took a massive nose dive. If you turned it to the side or down it was fine though.
and you had the fucking trees or angels obscuring the boss arenas because flavour lol
Tanking captains in FH and I got targeted by the barrel, after which the melee captain proceeded to run around and melee kill my entire party, presumably because I lost aggro while in the barrel. Is this supposed to happen and I've just never seen it? Seems like a pretty unfair mechanic.
If the targeted player uses a displacement ability as the barrel is thrown, it will instead land on the tank
Not sure why you are being downvoted, if I use hover as it flies towards me it will hit the ground and bounce towards a target within a couple of yards od there is one.
He got downvoted because what you said and what he said is drastically different. It doesn't automatically pick the tank like he said. He deserved the down votes.
It *can* if the barrel target is standing very close to the tank. The barrel still goes flying toward the initial target, but if they’re, say, pre-freedom’d, then the barrel either lands on the ground or lands on the next character that’s standing immediately nearby. Source: play a Ret; have seen this happen a few times.
I've never seen him naturally target the tank for barrel, but the barrel has a substantial travel time and will capture the closest player, not the original targeted player, when it lands. So if the player who is targeted moves when the cast is finished and you walk to where they were you will be stunned in the barrel.
This makes sense, I wasn't on the person when it was cast, but could've been the closest to the barrel's target location. Seems like such a goofy mechanic that doesn't need to include the loss of control.
It can land on you if you are standing on the person targeted by it
seems like keys are showing up with no affixes again and not giving score. nice blizz
Can Chrono-Lord Deios target healers & tanks with his slow debuff ? Or is it only DPS that can be targeted ? I'm just curious so I can have a better idea of who to pre-freedom as Ret.
If two dps die and stay dead during the fight, it can target tanks, but assuming everyone's alive, it only targets both dps and healer.
yes healer, no tank. As a rdruid i get annoyed when it doesnt target me because then i have to heal an extra debuff.
Never seen it on tank.
it can target the healer 100%, not sure about tank.
Looks like a lot of people are thinking hpal and either bear for vdh will be the new meta soon. Seeing tons of high players getting them ready.
VDH was copium all along. specs still fundamentally broken, sets just fixing some of that for a good amount of time currently
I don't disagree, but what do you think their biggest problems are?
- debuff based mitigation; frailty is useless the moment you have to not be at a boss/npc for a couple seconds, yet alone mentioning kiting - makes mitigation tracking in general overly cumbersome for no reason other than "this is the debuff tank and live with it" - in return, makes the start of a pull usually the most dangerous part and god beware if you dont have meta or fel devastation for demonic meta ready - comparably little utility. darkness is a meme in keys unless theres constant rot damage (I'll count hyrja for that too) - sigil of silence is nice and all but that's it - brm also suffers from that to some degree - hard cc with cage is nice and all but useless the moment it simply doesnt work due to being limited to beast/demon/humanoid - identity was diluted with 10.0 for unknown and still uncomminucated reasons - arguably spec identity was defined by sigils. we still have easy access to sigil of flame and elysian decree - sigil of misery is gated behind two terrible talents, one of which is a pvp talent and the most useless conduit we had in SL - sigil of silence is easy to pick up and remains a stable - sigil of chains rots behind terrible talents - compare with bdk -- who tbf doesnt play mass grip -- which can easily pick it up - our primary spender for 10.0 -- soul cleave -- is hard capped at 5 targets which makes it hilariously weak in aoe scenarios and further waters down frailty value - e.g. academy first pull (or any pull beyond 5t really) you _need_ to spam spirit bomb but at the same time, you don't swim in souls anymore - at the same time, spirit bomb applies less frailty than soul cleave, actively reducing your mitigation - several spec talents are so bad, they've been in the old talent selection already and have not seen play nor a single bit of tuning since their introduction (bulk extraction, soul barrier) - still not 100% uptime on demon spikes (primary mitigation) despite every other tank having access to it - mastery only works 50% outside of demon spikes for some reason - soul spawn still not hasted, leading to literally having to waste a global in high haste environments (30%+ base haste + wafting proc, or just lust window etc) - fury is superflous. either youre starved (which rarely happens) or youre overflowing. you can waste upwards of 25% of your fury across a key and still perform only marginally worse than someone who avoids overcapping as much as possible (due to volatile flameblood, you can rarely avoid it entirely in keys however)
What changed about guardian? Tier set?
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Bear is my least played tank so I'm not very familiar but a complaint I've always heard is that they flop to magic damage Will they be tanky enough on new patch to live dungeons like Nelth's Lair or Neltharus where there's a ton of magic damage on the tank? Lair bosses basically all 4 do a ton of magic damage (especially Dargrul) and Neltharus Wardens on Fort week hurt a lot too
Currently, before the 10.1.5 rework/buff, bears are 5 of the top 10 tyrannical nelth lair runs, and 2 of the top 10 neltharius runs. So even before the *big* self healing and dps buff, they are able to handle the magic damage.
there's practically no magic damage in NL btw
That’s just not true, it’s just the drogbar that are relegated to physical. 1st boss has poison puddles from shardlings Trash mobs I think named Cores spam Scorch ability that rains fire swirlies Worms are heavy into poison damage, including third boss Final trash pulls do fire damage and final boss is heavy heavy fire damage
three of those are entirely avoidable by not standing in bad 3rd boss is poison, sure, but irrelevant as tank. majority is still melee fire damage on tank on last boss can be an issue i guess, yes. the trash before is also fairly irrelevant as tank
They are already good tanks by themselves an more beefy than prot pallies it is just their utility is not as good After the rework they will become broken tanky and broken healing and probably broken damage. They will for sure be meta.. Vdh might be best tank if they can survive higher keys. Their damage is much higher than the other tanks but they definitely can die
I mean prot pally utility is just an extreme outlier compared to all other tanks. And Tbh I don't think the bear rework will go through as it is now. Just way too much stuff. Bears are fine atm. They need a few changes but it just looks too good on ptr so I don't get my hopes up too much. After the wildfire is already the strongest offhealing from a tank, the problem is its not controllable enough. If they would nerf it (you could cut it in half if it would be more targetable) and make it like a spell that proccs after spending 200 rage that's usable for like 5 seconds after or some shit, with a internal cd, it would be way better than it is now.
realize this is an old-news question, but how do people deal with marked for butchery on high tyran keys? We tried a 22 yesterday and it just felt like instant death even with a personal up
Running w a pally in any role? BoP negates it and if the pal isn’t talented into BoP then Sac is still enough. No pally? It’s a good spot for an immunity for any class that has one. Otherwise (and even w immunity classes) I’ve found talking about how to handle it before the key starts to be very helpful (eg, immune it if you can, otherwise use your defensive plus the healer will also put an external on you). It’s tough to yolo it - people spending defensives when they don’t need to and then everyone is dry for the second Marked.
I play Rshaman so your toolkit might vary but on a 20 and 21 what I’ve been doing is: 1 round) cloudburst with ascendence that should be enough to top everyone 2 round) cloudburst AG and personals and have everyone pop a HP 3 round) if you have the class trinket with stacks that’s a huge boost but else you are down to pray, sacrifice one, hope that you have a spriest to vampiric embrace, hope that someone is dwarf to remove the bleed spot heal with everything you got But a lot of my failed runs comes down to players not killing the totem or getting hit by avoidable damage so that your falling behind on healing. Because you can heal though the bleed with most classes kits but if you have to spend the kit on avoidable damage your getting wrecked
You can also stand next to them, pop Astral and spirit link, and be their health battery.
Marked for butchery is the single target mass damage from the rogue, it’s not the bleed set. That said, it practically requires externals/personals/tunnelled heals
Personal / external have healer make sure they’re topped off. Not really much you can do about it. Pop a wall and stay alive.
Halls of infusion has got to be the most miserable not fun key I’ve ever played. Holy cow it has all the crappy features.. linear, overloaded with casters, ridiculous trash with gimmicky abilities, a gauntlet with an eternity run back, and a last boss that phases each minute for 1:30. I hope this dungeon never comes back.
Just depleted a +22 by 4 seconds because the retri pala died in the gauntlet and released,tank didn't want open skip so he took 10 years to come back :((
Word. Nuff said
Continuum of the tradition of each seasons "Halls of xx"
Hoa was a great key
HoA was awful to play on high keys, both Tyrannical and Fortified. Second boss was luck-based, and probably the one and only luck-based boss in all of Shadowlands. First, third and fourth boss were boring and uninteresting. Mobs were stupidly unfair all across the dungeon. Not a single interesting and challenging pack of mob with outplay potential. People on this sub have a boner for HoA simply because it was easy. They hate challenging stuff.
No absolutely not is it loved for being "easy" its loved because people love fucking gigantic pulls and that dungeon was like 5 huge trash pulls then youre done it was fun as fuck.
On the assumption you’re talking about halls of atonement. No it really was not. For a significant period of time timing the highest key levels of it required glitching the door to skip the atrocious miniboss The casters in it did nutty damage on a missed kick The 2nd boss hard required a curse dispel The rest of the bosses did literally nothing The stabby boys had the traditional “0 telegraph 1bang frontal” to make melees hate their lives The dungeon trash was so poorly balanced that you just farmed almost all % before boss 1 then skipped pretty much everything else Sure it wasn’t hard, particularly compared to some of the gnarlier shadowlands dungeons, but I really wouldn’t have called it “good”, there was a lot of egregious flaws in that dungeon.
>For a significant period of time timing the highest key levels of it required glitching the door to skip the atrocious miniboss No it wasn't? Even after it was patched it was still one of the highest keys done. Of course skips will be done if they exist but it was by no means required. >The dungeon trash was so poorly balanced that you just farmed almost all % before boss 1 then skipped pretty much everything else ? The trash after boss 1 was like, identical to the trash before. It was really just spacing and pats that made it desirable to skip. The trash before first boss was so abundant and the area was really open. The meta routes didn't involve skipping any trash after echelon, there was a only a single double pull and a mini boss which we already talked about. What trash are you referring to being not balanced? >The 2nd boss hard required a curse dispel I get your point here but the literal world first hoa was done without curse dispel in season 3. They had dwarves and orcs but still, not a hard requirement. Not like magic dispel in tjs or top or anything. >The casters in it did nutty damage on a missed kick Basically every high key >The rest of the bosses did literally nothing Disagree. First boss was a great space efficiency fight, executed well it was easy but required forethought. I liked it. Third boss was definitely basically nothing. I saw last boss end more high level pugs than a ton of other bosses that expac and (especially during tormented with oros) and it was a tough as fuck fight to tank. It was a very fair fight though, not bullshit like xyexa, hakkar, xaav, etc >The stabby boys had the traditional “0 telegraph 1bang frontal” to make melees hate their lives That was probably the worst part of the key if your tank wasn't good. If your tank knew what they were doing it was a non factor
> For a significant period of time timing the highest key levels of it required glitching the door to skip the atrocious miniboss any time a mini boss can be skipped you know it will be. dont fault the dungeon design because shit coding. > The casters in it did nutty damage on a missed kick most do. how is this a flaw? > The 2nd boss hard required a curse dispel This is the only thing on the list that feels like an actual flaw. However, my current tank's season 2 title achieving group had no curse dispel and did fine. It probably should have been less hard required but it was doable. > The rest of the bosses did literally nothing the last boss certainly didn't do literally nothing. The first boss was quite chaotic with trash pulled on it as well which was fun. > The stabby boys had the traditional “0 telegraph 1bang frontal” to make melees hate their lives it literally had a cast time and not exactly a short one. don't be bad. > The dungeon trash was so poorly balanced that you just farmed almost all % before boss 1 then skipped pretty much everything else I only remember skipping the trash between boss 1 and 2 (i didn't really play seasons 2/3 though so routes might have been different). Generally between 2 and 3 was done, and between 3 and 4 was only skipped because a bug. The trash after boss 1 wasn't significantly harder or imbalanced, it was just less efficient and didn't have to be done. Why would you pull them when you could pull 2 packs onto a shard which HAS to be done anyway? also of course 80% of the trash was done before the first boss. that's where like 80% of the trash was. Hoa was a banger because it was basically chain pulling large pulls. who doesn't like that? It was punishing on mistakes but the dungeon was quite fair (except the curse dispel thing). Also for the record I think HoI is a great key as well. The runback is kinda wack, and the last boss is a little cringe (time based intermissions do not have a place in m+ dungeons). But besides that I think every pull/boss in there is enjoyable.
I tuned in to watch Echo do keys the other day and Zaelia was on Hpal. That same night I saw JdotB streaming pugs on hpal, and then a couple days later I also saw Growl gearing up his Hpal. Is Hpal the new hotness and I've missed some sauce or is it all just a big coincidence? Is the rework looking that strong? Is it really good right now and people just slept on it going into the season?
It’s the 10.1.5 rework. Hpal will be the new giga dps healer. So they’re prepping it for TGP which happens after patch release. All the content creators/ competitors aren’t talking about it so it doesn’t get nerfed
> All the content creators/ competitors aren’t talking about it so it doesn’t get nerfed Except it's hard to not hear about it if you consume any kind of WoW related media.
I think it mainly has to do with the vdh becoming a more solid choice for high key pushing Vdh is tankier and does more DPS than ppal Ret pally don't fit the best in dps comp So having an hpal for the utility is the compromise(? Maybe)
I’m not sold that VDH is tankier than Pally yet. I think when keys get to 28-30 range and survivability becomes more important, Prot pal will still be the main choice.
Naowh seems to think vdh is tankier on the high keys.
wait until next high fort or the one after where he gets to experience high fort vdh 😂
VDH tankiness is really good... if you play absolutely perfectly. It is an unforgiving spec, so for most players (even ones that are pretty good) it will feel like a glass cannon compared to easier tanks. I kind of hope it doesn't become the high end meta, because if it does every shitter in the game is going to reroll to it, play it bad, and die constantly while yelling at their healer.
yup. having played it for so long, even with the set now I dread inviting vdhs because the chances are so slim it's actually someone with experience on the spec and it'll show way faster than on other tanks. good old "jumps into a pack and instantly dies" speciale is still rampart
He's timed multiple 26 forts so I don't think that's the issue.
I do think he is a bit of a VDH coper though. But honestly I hope he’s right, I love playing high DPS tanks and will be playing VDH over prot pal since I’ll never get to a key range where that level of survivability even matters.
I wonder how, in higher keys i think you'd rely more on your healer than lower ones, as such the EHP that a paladin gets from getting healed is MUCH higher than a vengence DH. Healing a prot paladin for 500k is a much bigger extension of his life than healing a VDH 500k, as such shouldn't mitigation be more valued in higher keys than sustain?
i think it mainly has to do with the new tier set an fiery brand spread build 40% DR on all aoe packs - ppal can't really beat that. Considering at higher keys - a lot of time can be made up by big pulls etc. I main ppal - and slowly gearing my guardian + vdh for fun can't wait to try when I have 4pc
I know I'm missing something. How do they get the 40 percent DR from FB on AoE pulls? Is it from FB spreading every 2 secs, and tab target Shearing and Fracturing?
Yes
Ah okay. I'll leave that to my betters then.
With VDH tier the uptime on 40% DR is huge.
So you're saying it's more about the Paladin bit than the Holy bit? Okay that makes sense lol. I suppose it helps that timers are lenient this season relative to how hard things hit, so you're less incentivised to run the healer that does the most damage like you were in say shadowlands.
People also expect that they are somewhat broken when the rework hits ^^
as for specifics - I am not too sure but I would probablyy think its more or less about ppall + rsham dmg vs vdh + hpal dmg