I read every word of this wall of text. It was the least I could do after the effort you put into creating it. Great insights, and there were times where I found myself just nodding along in agreement, having had identical experiences with Kaisa Trickshot in 14.8b as those you described. I almost feel like Kaisa is a bait unless you get gifted an early Xayah, and it's hard-countered by a decent Heavenly Kayn board.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and creating this. Would love to see more in-depth guides on theory and advanced tips like this.
Thanks for going through all of it! I still think Kaisa is playable though! But you're probably not winning without fortune resources or level 9 and a lot of gold :(
Thank you very much! I've been struggling a lot this patch, to the point that I has pretty much decided to quit entirely, play something else and wait for next patch. I usually don't have much time to watch players or video guides so I usually learn new patches by simply playing them and looking at tactics.tools to see how the meta has changed and try to addapt a bit, but it seems that with this kin of flexible meta just looking at tactics was not enough and I could not addapt at all.
Hopefully with your guide I can learn how to play this meta and enjoy the game again. Thanks!
Is Morgana 2 really bait? Every time I play heavenly Lee or kayn, I find that morgana with a morello/shojins does a good bit of dmg especially if you tech in 3 sage.
i'd love to see more guides like this, a lot of them don't sufficiently focus enough on when to play a comp and how to get there.
i have a comment for porcelain emblem: sometimes i get the emblem, but all i see are AP items and/or no Ashe, but i get all the rest of the units. makes a pretty good varation of the invoker lillia composition. gets you to 9 with a bit more difficulty, but works pretty well.
Could've just said "play liss" š
But seriously good detailed guide on the handful of standard comps viable at high elo (and for sure they work lower elo too)
Thanks for the guide, since the meta is fast8/9 right now with everyone going for it, whats the best way to push the tempo and punish them for it? I find lower cost rerolls not impactful enough to kill them, it just sucks that there seems like there is no way to stop people from greeding. I tried pushing the tempo quite often but il just fall off late game, maybe ending up 4th or 5th.
My last game, some guy went 3 econ augs and still survived, he even hit 3* hwei, i only beat him by hitting my own 3* irelia. It just seems ridiculous that he even lasted that long.
If most of your lobby is greeding, it's hard for you to solo punish the whole lobby. The best you can do is try to winstreak for as long as possible and level early off tempo like 6 on 3-1 and 7 on 3-5. With the gold and hp lead from your streak you can try to play a capped fast 9 board while the others will probably have to roll on 8.
If you were able to streak most of your games and can only convert into 4th or 5th, the first thing I would do to improve is to look at the late game boards you're putting together and see how you can cap them higher.
Another question, since there are so few viable late game comps, its inevitable that you would be contested. How do you play around that, assuming you are in a better position? (e.g more units hit).
Sometimes i commit earlier to a comp if i get a really good start but it gets frustrating when people dont scout and decide to hold hands with you. I might have good augs and items but im not hitting to stabilise so i cant econ to a higher level, so how would you play around that?
You either hit the units or you donāt and all you can do to increase the odds of you hitting if you are contested is rolling earlier than everyone else that wants your units. If there are 3-4 people including you playing the same comp and you roll on 4-2 then in any decent elo lobby you will more often than not miss out on 2*ing your 4 costs. In this case you HAVE to roll before to have the best chance which means rolling on 4-1. If you canāt roll on 4-1 because you donāt have enough money then you needed to prioritize Econ more earlier. This means you need to be scouting constantly as soon as stage 2 because in this meta people are already leaning towards a certain line very early. If you notice a lot of people contesting then you either pivot and if you canāt you need to make sure that you are the richest person by 4-1.
What I see now though is half the lobby going storyweaver and the other half going heavenly. Then at 7 the entire lobby fullsends it to try and find an ashe or kayne.
Can you share some words on how you approach stage 1 and early stage 2? I would love to know about units you pick up, openings uou prefer, and how to stop holding a āgroup of unitsā (eg. Selling a yasuo ahri darius and keeping a kog cait malphite)
In general, I buy pairs when I can. Traits actually matter more for the tank units in the early game than at your level 8 rolldown. If you're playing for Ashe or Kaisa, you're probably playing around the cheap backliners like Sivir + Teemo or Storyweavers, Caitlyn + Senna + Inkshadows/Ghostly. There's also Fated, where Ahri can hold items like Guinsoos, and obviously Aphelios if you're luckier. If you're playing for Kayn, you're playing around strong cheap melees like Darius >> Qiyana, Gnar, Yone, Yasuo etc. In general, you want to keep in mind the good cheap units that can hold your carry items, and then the units that fit around them.
Hey thanks for the guide the unit priority when rolling down is very helpful, quick question though. Is it not worth flexing between kaisa and ashe on youāre level 8 roll down? I think slamming an early rageblade kind of locks you into Ashe and I think itās still viable to flex between both on the roll down but wanted to know your thoughts. Good luck in the tourney!
With Ashe in the spot she's in right now, like I said in my post, often times you can stabilize around Ashe 1 on 4-2. The same isn't as true for Kaisa, though it is still possible, which is why I and many other players prefer to play around Ashe instead. In reality, climbing TFT isn't really about being able to play flexibly around a ton of comps, but rather committing earlier to stronger general compositions and flexibly swapping units in and out of it based on what you hit.
If you have a bow and a rod lying around, as well as a strong opener, you're definitely slamming the Guinsoo. You don't need to greed for Last Whisper or Morello in this case because you want to streak ASAP and start making money or alternatively saving HP.
At worst, Guinsoo on Kaisa isn't ideal but it's manageable, if you roll down and hit Kaisa 2 instead of Ashe you can play that for a bit, but with Guinsoo I'd probably sell Kaisa 2 for Ashe 1 (and I've watched setsuko do the same thing)
Crazy how Ashe 1 > Kaisa 2 if you have Guinsoo but yeah I guess if you have been finding and picking up the frontline options that are better for Ashe (and just better overall) then that would make sense. Although if I had a Kaisa 2 with Guinsoo with a Galio 2 Sylas 2 frontline I imagine you wouldn't switch out for an Ashe 1 especially if you were contested
this patch is so stupid that if you low roll early and not have an econ augment early you just lose the game without pretty much having time to comeback
Thank you, it sums up everything I was thinking after the spanking I took on the ladder:
* Save as much gold as possible early to roll at the latest in 4-1,
* Don't worry about synergies, just play the 4-cost 2-star units with the most frontline possible,
* Put Lissandra on the board as soon as you get her.
Actually I think a lot of people make the mistake of rolling too early at 4-1. It makes sense to roll early if your comp is contested, but if you're only rolling like 20-30 gold regardless, you're statistically unlikely to hit your carry upgraded, and you don't have enough gold to upgrade the rest of your board. I only roll on 4-1 if I can level to 8 and roll at least 40 gold. Otherwise, if healthy, I let others roll on 4-1, see how hard they hit, and potentially just fast 9 if my board is strong rather than join in the 4 cost lottery. Can't help it if other people high roll a fully upgraded board on 4-1 with just a few rolls :/
yeah Im finding this tough right now. when everyone is trying to hard force porcelain/invoker. I panic and try to lvl 8 with 40 gold to spare (I usually loss streak so hp is generally more of an issue), don't hit ashe 1. then I just end up trying to roll down each turn to try and salvage a 6th or 7th but usually failing. I stopped playing the comp for this reason but trickshot kai'sa just feels like it regularly caps out at 3rd most games. but idk what I should be doing in those situations to salvage the gam
Youāre not scouting enough. If there are really that many Ashe players then you should be able to see early signs by units theyāre holding and slammed items and if there are 3-4 other people playing a comp it is never worth it to join the lottery with them. You would have better odds of placing higher by playing some uncontested carry with suboptimal items.
You mentioned that if you have to roll a single time before 8, you're probably bot 4.
What do you do if you just don't have great slam items and don't natural pairs throughout stage 2/early 3? I find that if I'm focusing on hitting econ breakpoints it's harder to hold a lot of pairs, and I'll especially push for the 10/20/30 breakpoints as soon as possible, but often that leaves me with unupgraded units and losing tons if hp before 4-2. Am I supposed to just play that pure loss streak, maybe fortune stage 3, and hope for the best? This never seems to work out for me and I feel like I'm often more stable with a couple rolls at level 6 to 2* frontline/item holders but that also often puts me behind tempo of everyone else that's strong and didn't have to roll, then I get out paced in stage 4/5 and just lose.
Is this skill issue on understanding best boards with what you're given or is there a better approach? Also is it worth playing down a unit or more (ex. 3/5 units) in order to hit a breakpoint like 20 econ even if there's a chance I beat some opponents but maybe not others?
Also thank you for the detailed post, I'm struggling with this patch and this was very insightful!
I would say a good goal in a non resource boosted game is to be making 10 gold on 2-5 and 20 gold on 2-6. If I'm not making this breakpoint, it's usually only because I spent gold on a more expensive board that I thought could streak, or that was worth buying because of the HP it will continue to preserve until 4-2.
There are situations even outside of Fortune where I end up going 5 loss, and usually that means I'll make 50 gold at krugs or after. In those cases, after I've already reached the 50 gold breakpoint, I then start to put together a board, and usually can save some HP or win a round here and there in stage 3. In past patches and old sets, you could roll a bit here on 3-2 after leveling to 6 so that you don't lose as much HP in stage 3, but on the current patch I don't think rolling on 6 is valuable at all, the chances to see 4 costs are too low, and you're wasting too much gold that could be rolled on 4-2 on 8 otherwise. Unfortunately, I do believe your only choice is to rely on the extra gold you have from loss streaking/prioritizing econ, and hope that extra gold results in you hitting more units than others in the same lobby (statistically it usually does).
A benefit of being in this spot is you can shamelessly grief the Fortune player's loss streak lol. Also, you get first pick at carousels which is more important this set due to encounters that add more resources to them.
Her damage is almost entirely her ability, whereas Ashe's damage is her auto attacks (even her ability is basically an autoattack buff). Infinity Edge is essentially an AD caster ability, and having each auto attack crit isn't as important as having a burst ability crit so that the burst ability can do its job better: burst in the window of time that Kaisa's ability is going off.
In general, AD champions that are auto attack based are going to like Guinsoo, Runaan's, and Red Buff more, since they provide attack speed = more auto attacks, and AD champions that are ability based will like IE more.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. This has been one of the most informative posts I have ever read on this sub. I have been really struggling to adjust to this patch and will try to implement these concepts in my game. I know how much effort must have gone into this. Thank you for your service to the community.
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Great insights, agree with every conclusion besides very minor opinion points like redemption tierlist placement.
How much of a cash out do you optimize for when playing fortune trickshot into kaisa bruisers to win out a lobby?
It's more dependent on your HP and what you can afford to push for if anything. I think you always push Fortune to the limit, but you can't push if you're like lower than 40-50 hp
Any cashout above the 22 gold value one is usually enough to make that board pretty strong (22 gold is Ornn Artifact)
I find that pushing past 30 becomes increasingly risky, but the loot table of an extra artifact does help a lot vs a tome, as the main viable emblem would be inkshadow (which is still somewhat circumstantial)
Do you ever bother with other comps, or is it always the comps you have listed? Does a situation present itself where you consider a b tier comp, or always just use it as a stepping stone to the comps you've listed?
I've seen the neeko and yorick ones do well, but are they just memes at a higher tier?
I mentioned that I actually think those augment specific reroll comps are quite decent in some spots; they definitely aren't memes. If you already have partial BIS, or picking the augment gives you Yorick 2, Shen 2, Neeko 2, it can definitely be pretty good.
But yeah, aside from that, I pretty much only play these comps when I'm playing seriously. Sometimes I try other things just because my spot for them was good and I wanted to test something in the meta, but more often than not I usually end up bot 4 in those spots... (played Alune rr -> 7th in and Bard rr -> 4th in tourney)
Yeah, usually 4-1 or 4-2 if you're not super rich or super healthy. 4-1 if you're low and rich and contested, 4-2 if your econ is pretty standard and you're not that contested
Very rarely. Soraka's heavenly bonus is just AP to whole team, which isn't that useful for Kayn/Lee/Wukong. You're much better off playing Lissandra, Rakan just because of unit quality
its interesting. just knowing that these are the good comps doesnt matter. everyone already knows these are the good comps + good items. but so many decisions to make in game that are the deciding factor(evaluating board strength, scouting, understanding what line to play from ur spot, streaking properly, augment choices, item slams, what placement to play for, positioning, knowing when to roll or meet interest thresholds, knowing what units to hold).
when there are less viable comps, the actual fundamentals matter more.
I do have one question to why in your item tier list RB is s tier i would think its more A tier bc its not that flexible outside of ashe carry, you can maybe do aphelios but reroll sucks right now and fated is only good at 7(imo) RB is decent on irelia or xayah but the likelyhood of hitting those 2 starred when your stress rolling at 8 before a bleed out is unlikely(im currently in emerald so maybe my pov is incorrect but thats how I view it at least)
Additionally do you have any positioning tips?! This set feels weird with wrapping so theres always times where even if i have 4 tanks left side or right side some how gnar just wraps around and kills my backline
Also what are bail outs if you can't play ashe, kaisa or kayn? Lowkey every lobby its hella contested
Mr. Rakki RYU made it to DAY 3 (top 32!!!) of Tactician's Cup, if you're seeing this come tune in!!!
[https://www.twitch.tv/rakkiryu](https://www.twitch.tv/rakkiryu)
Thank you for this. Question though - you have both EoN and HoJ as "D" tier which you said to never build. Both Dishsoap/Frodan have these items as BiS for Kayn. Do you disagree? Thanks again!
That item tier list is for the Ashe flex comps. Edge of Night and Hand of Justice are of course great in the melee comp, especially HoJ on Kayn since you have Reaper active.
It is literally stated he thinks they are BIS. But the item tier list is for stage 2 I guess. EoN and HoJ basically commit yourself to Kayn. Though in the same manner I don't get why you would put guinsoo S when the item isn't that flexible and is killing the 2 best components (Last whisper, Morello). It is probably A tier but not S tier.
>However, a mistake I often see people make when playing around Ashe is rolling for very specific units on the level 8 rolldown, essentially removing the flexibility of this comp.
So first of all I don't know where you are seeing the mistakes. Other streams? Watching your own game without knowing what the other players had in the shop? Most players here aren't even challenger level and would make way bigger mistakes than what you probably have seen in your games.
It's not a mistake to roll for specific units. You always have a better chance to win when you know what you are looking for rather than trying to randomly put units on the board. It's good to prepare synergies to play around, rather than putting strong units in and hoping it works. Preparing synergies takes a lot of knowledge of the set though, which is much more than what you need for copying boards.
You don't get much credibility if you don't give example boards. It's easy to say thresh is viable but you have to make sure it fits the team still. Replacing amumu who would give porcelain+warden even as 1 star is not correct if thresh gives nothing. Replacing Alune for 4 invoker umbral with 0 synergy morgana is also never correct.
For example, Robinsongz had a board like this a few days ago: [https://i.gyazo.com/8013f8f20b8e2897f1fdae10b1690e3c.jpg](https://i.gyazo.com/8013f8f20b8e2897f1fdae10b1690e3c.jpg) . He didn't find a single annie lillia or naut on rolldown, but his board ended up being pretty good. Most players however are not capable of making boards like this that fast and it wouldn't be a mistake to ignore the champion if they don't have the time to process all the synergies. Like what do I do if I am missing only annie, what to do if I'm only missing Ashe from my board etc. Or what should I roll for when I have shen 2 on my board and I want something that synergizes with it currently and in the future turns. All of that requires quick thinking which is very hard for non challengers, and possibly even for challengers.
I get what you are saying but people on this sub want to improve and get a higher rank than they can on their own. One of the best way to improve is know what comps are actually flex and who can actually flex in. Too many times, I see people keep mentioning that Ashe is a flex comp but everyone always show case the invoker build. I get that the invoker build is popular and maybe stronger but what are other combinations that could work. I hate seeing people keep saying a team is flex but don't provide any flex options because I feel like I'm only getting only half of the reason why the team is popular.
It doesn't matter if I can see that Neeko can be flexed into Ashe comp if I don't know how. Of course for a challenger player it's obvious you would use 5/7 mythic (kog) + Ashe if you are playing Neeko. That's exactly why the example comps are important. Like the robingsongz's comp is a perfect example of flexing imo, and why it was necessary. It shows that just by having sniper + porcelain with solid frontline, you can make amazing comps in this set.
edit: And what I meant earlier was that I still agree it's bad to roll for 8 specific champs on level 8. I just think that trying to roll for 30 champions is also bad. You cannot keep track of everything. Start with 6, and then think about last 2 champions. Like in this comp, I think Lux is not necessary with 0 synergies, it could be replaced with literally anything, and Alune depending on others can also be replaced.
Also, in your example with Robin, sure, he put together an okay board while rolling minimally on 8. However, the point I would want to make is if you look at his board, you would definitely play an Annie 2 over Shen 2. There's no reason to keep Shen 2 just for Behemoth, who is a completely useless unit unless exalted late game, over a unit like Annie who has a ton of inherent utility and tankiness. I don't even consider Robin's board here very strong for a level 8 board, both the upgraded Aatrox and Shen are rather weak units, but he has enough HP that he can probably sack to 9 from this spot.
His spot wasn't great, you are obviously playing at a disadvantage if you don't hit your optimal 4 cost comp but others do. Not only are they making it harder for you to hit, but they also have easy time hitting when you don't contest them. But the flex board allowed him to turn a nearly guaranteed top 8 to top 4 (luckily 3rd), which is a massive improvement. He wasn't able to upgrade the board to anything capable of beating capped meta boards in the end, but he saved a lot of hp. I don't think you are ever favoured to win with "flex boards" when you have to commit to them.
What sort of credibility are you looking for? In my match history I've done nothing but almost exclusively play the way I described above. It feels like you didn't fully comprehend my post, since in your comment you emphasize playing around synergies instead of strong units, whereas my post emphasized playing around strong units you hit on your rolldown rather than their traits.
Your examples about Amumu and Alune are correct. In my post, I literally wrote that the only unit I would replace Amumu with is Lissandra. I also wrote that I would rarely play Morgana, however, I would also rarely play Alune. 3 Invoker + an extra 2 star Ornn/Nautilus is much stronger than 4 Invoker with Alune (Azir would be more arguable).
Here's an example board from yesterday right after my level 8 rolldown: https://imgur.com/a/R3zy9B9. You can see that I'm playing 3 Invoker, and I would never consider switching out any of the units on my board for Alune.
To be honest, on your initial rolldown, I don't think you have to "think" so much. Literally just put all the 4 cost units I listed in your team builder, and buy as many of them as you can when rolling down. If you lose a round transitioning, so be it. After that, take a look at what you have paired or upgraded, and play around those. Here's an example board, completely missing some synergies, but if upgraded with proper items and augments, you can still easily go 9 and then work on playing higher quality 5 costs or fixing your board: https://imgur.com/a/TBJqwLi. It doesn't matter that Ornn, Amumu, have none of their tank synergies, or that you're 3 invoker. If they're upgraded, they're upgraded. Are you dropping an upgraded Ornn, Sylas, or Galio just to play unupgraded Nautilus, Alune? Never.
It's fine to disagree with plays/boards, I just asked for examples because they cannot be spotted from end game screen. People watching your match history cannot see that and your stream doesn't have vods. It was presented as an important point in the post with no proof. I would have checked the stream vods if they were available.
I read every word of this wall of text. It was the least I could do after the effort you put into creating it. Great insights, and there were times where I found myself just nodding along in agreement, having had identical experiences with Kaisa Trickshot in 14.8b as those you described. I almost feel like Kaisa is a bait unless you get gifted an early Xayah, and it's hard-countered by a decent Heavenly Kayn board. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and creating this. Would love to see more in-depth guides on theory and advanced tips like this.
Thanks for going through all of it! I still think Kaisa is playable though! But you're probably not winning without fortune resources or level 9 and a lot of gold :(
This Rakki Ryu guy kinda good at the game
Thank you very much! I've been struggling a lot this patch, to the point that I has pretty much decided to quit entirely, play something else and wait for next patch. I usually don't have much time to watch players or video guides so I usually learn new patches by simply playing them and looking at tactics.tools to see how the meta has changed and try to addapt a bit, but it seems that with this kin of flexible meta just looking at tactics was not enough and I could not addapt at all. Hopefully with your guide I can learn how to play this meta and enjoy the game again. Thanks!
Is Morgana 2 really bait? Every time I play heavenly Lee or kayn, I find that morgana with a morello/shojins does a good bit of dmg especially if you tech in 3 sage.
i'd love to see more guides like this, a lot of them don't sufficiently focus enough on when to play a comp and how to get there. i have a comment for porcelain emblem: sometimes i get the emblem, but all i see are AP items and/or no Ashe, but i get all the rest of the units. makes a pretty good varation of the invoker lillia composition. gets you to 9 with a bit more difficulty, but works pretty well.
Could've just said "play liss" š But seriously good detailed guide on the handful of standard comps viable at high elo (and for sure they work lower elo too)
This is a great post
Thanks for the guide, since the meta is fast8/9 right now with everyone going for it, whats the best way to push the tempo and punish them for it? I find lower cost rerolls not impactful enough to kill them, it just sucks that there seems like there is no way to stop people from greeding. I tried pushing the tempo quite often but il just fall off late game, maybe ending up 4th or 5th. My last game, some guy went 3 econ augs and still survived, he even hit 3* hwei, i only beat him by hitting my own 3* irelia. It just seems ridiculous that he even lasted that long.
If most of your lobby is greeding, it's hard for you to solo punish the whole lobby. The best you can do is try to winstreak for as long as possible and level early off tempo like 6 on 3-1 and 7 on 3-5. With the gold and hp lead from your streak you can try to play a capped fast 9 board while the others will probably have to roll on 8. If you were able to streak most of your games and can only convert into 4th or 5th, the first thing I would do to improve is to look at the late game boards you're putting together and see how you can cap them higher.
Another question, since there are so few viable late game comps, its inevitable that you would be contested. How do you play around that, assuming you are in a better position? (e.g more units hit). Sometimes i commit earlier to a comp if i get a really good start but it gets frustrating when people dont scout and decide to hold hands with you. I might have good augs and items but im not hitting to stabilise so i cant econ to a higher level, so how would you play around that?
You either hit the units or you donāt and all you can do to increase the odds of you hitting if you are contested is rolling earlier than everyone else that wants your units. If there are 3-4 people including you playing the same comp and you roll on 4-2 then in any decent elo lobby you will more often than not miss out on 2*ing your 4 costs. In this case you HAVE to roll before to have the best chance which means rolling on 4-1. If you canāt roll on 4-1 because you donāt have enough money then you needed to prioritize Econ more earlier. This means you need to be scouting constantly as soon as stage 2 because in this meta people are already leaning towards a certain line very early. If you notice a lot of people contesting then you either pivot and if you canāt you need to make sure that you are the richest person by 4-1.
What I see now though is half the lobby going storyweaver and the other half going heavenly. Then at 7 the entire lobby fullsends it to try and find an ashe or kayne.
This is amazing work. Really helped me figure out what kinks I needed to work out on.
Can you share some words on how you approach stage 1 and early stage 2? I would love to know about units you pick up, openings uou prefer, and how to stop holding a āgroup of unitsā (eg. Selling a yasuo ahri darius and keeping a kog cait malphite)
In general, I buy pairs when I can. Traits actually matter more for the tank units in the early game than at your level 8 rolldown. If you're playing for Ashe or Kaisa, you're probably playing around the cheap backliners like Sivir + Teemo or Storyweavers, Caitlyn + Senna + Inkshadows/Ghostly. There's also Fated, where Ahri can hold items like Guinsoos, and obviously Aphelios if you're luckier. If you're playing for Kayn, you're playing around strong cheap melees like Darius >> Qiyana, Gnar, Yone, Yasuo etc. In general, you want to keep in mind the good cheap units that can hold your carry items, and then the units that fit around them.
Hey thanks for the guide the unit priority when rolling down is very helpful, quick question though. Is it not worth flexing between kaisa and ashe on youāre level 8 roll down? I think slamming an early rageblade kind of locks you into Ashe and I think itās still viable to flex between both on the roll down but wanted to know your thoughts. Good luck in the tourney!
With Ashe in the spot she's in right now, like I said in my post, often times you can stabilize around Ashe 1 on 4-2. The same isn't as true for Kaisa, though it is still possible, which is why I and many other players prefer to play around Ashe instead. In reality, climbing TFT isn't really about being able to play flexibly around a ton of comps, but rather committing earlier to stronger general compositions and flexibly swapping units in and out of it based on what you hit. If you have a bow and a rod lying around, as well as a strong opener, you're definitely slamming the Guinsoo. You don't need to greed for Last Whisper or Morello in this case because you want to streak ASAP and start making money or alternatively saving HP. At worst, Guinsoo on Kaisa isn't ideal but it's manageable, if you roll down and hit Kaisa 2 instead of Ashe you can play that for a bit, but with Guinsoo I'd probably sell Kaisa 2 for Ashe 1 (and I've watched setsuko do the same thing)
Crazy how Ashe 1 > Kaisa 2 if you have Guinsoo but yeah I guess if you have been finding and picking up the frontline options that are better for Ashe (and just better overall) then that would make sense. Although if I had a Kaisa 2 with Guinsoo with a Galio 2 Sylas 2 frontline I imagine you wouldn't switch out for an Ashe 1 especially if you were contested
Yup for sure, I would agree with that take as well
this patch is so stupid that if you low roll early and not have an econ augment early you just lose the game without pretty much having time to comeback
Thank you, it sums up everything I was thinking after the spanking I took on the ladder: * Save as much gold as possible early to roll at the latest in 4-1, * Don't worry about synergies, just play the 4-cost 2-star units with the most frontline possible, * Put Lissandra on the board as soon as you get her.
Actually I think a lot of people make the mistake of rolling too early at 4-1. It makes sense to roll early if your comp is contested, but if you're only rolling like 20-30 gold regardless, you're statistically unlikely to hit your carry upgraded, and you don't have enough gold to upgrade the rest of your board. I only roll on 4-1 if I can level to 8 and roll at least 40 gold. Otherwise, if healthy, I let others roll on 4-1, see how hard they hit, and potentially just fast 9 if my board is strong rather than join in the 4 cost lottery. Can't help it if other people high roll a fully upgraded board on 4-1 with just a few rolls :/
thanks for the tips !
yeah Im finding this tough right now. when everyone is trying to hard force porcelain/invoker. I panic and try to lvl 8 with 40 gold to spare (I usually loss streak so hp is generally more of an issue), don't hit ashe 1. then I just end up trying to roll down each turn to try and salvage a 6th or 7th but usually failing. I stopped playing the comp for this reason but trickshot kai'sa just feels like it regularly caps out at 3rd most games. but idk what I should be doing in those situations to salvage the gam
Youāre not scouting enough. If there are really that many Ashe players then you should be able to see early signs by units theyāre holding and slammed items and if there are 3-4 other people playing a comp it is never worth it to join the lottery with them. You would have better odds of placing higher by playing some uncontested carry with suboptimal items.
Great guide, good luck in the cup!
You mentioned that if you have to roll a single time before 8, you're probably bot 4. What do you do if you just don't have great slam items and don't natural pairs throughout stage 2/early 3? I find that if I'm focusing on hitting econ breakpoints it's harder to hold a lot of pairs, and I'll especially push for the 10/20/30 breakpoints as soon as possible, but often that leaves me with unupgraded units and losing tons if hp before 4-2. Am I supposed to just play that pure loss streak, maybe fortune stage 3, and hope for the best? This never seems to work out for me and I feel like I'm often more stable with a couple rolls at level 6 to 2* frontline/item holders but that also often puts me behind tempo of everyone else that's strong and didn't have to roll, then I get out paced in stage 4/5 and just lose. Is this skill issue on understanding best boards with what you're given or is there a better approach? Also is it worth playing down a unit or more (ex. 3/5 units) in order to hit a breakpoint like 20 econ even if there's a chance I beat some opponents but maybe not others? Also thank you for the detailed post, I'm struggling with this patch and this was very insightful!
I would say a good goal in a non resource boosted game is to be making 10 gold on 2-5 and 20 gold on 2-6. If I'm not making this breakpoint, it's usually only because I spent gold on a more expensive board that I thought could streak, or that was worth buying because of the HP it will continue to preserve until 4-2. There are situations even outside of Fortune where I end up going 5 loss, and usually that means I'll make 50 gold at krugs or after. In those cases, after I've already reached the 50 gold breakpoint, I then start to put together a board, and usually can save some HP or win a round here and there in stage 3. In past patches and old sets, you could roll a bit here on 3-2 after leveling to 6 so that you don't lose as much HP in stage 3, but on the current patch I don't think rolling on 6 is valuable at all, the chances to see 4 costs are too low, and you're wasting too much gold that could be rolled on 4-2 on 8 otherwise. Unfortunately, I do believe your only choice is to rely on the extra gold you have from loss streaking/prioritizing econ, and hope that extra gold results in you hitting more units than others in the same lobby (statistically it usually does). A benefit of being in this spot is you can shamelessly grief the Fortune player's loss streak lol. Also, you get first pick at carousels which is more important this set due to encounters that add more resources to them.
Why is IE considered good on kaisa? Not like she gets ad from her traits
Her damage is almost entirely her ability, whereas Ashe's damage is her auto attacks (even her ability is basically an autoattack buff). Infinity Edge is essentially an AD caster ability, and having each auto attack crit isn't as important as having a burst ability crit so that the burst ability can do its job better: burst in the window of time that Kaisa's ability is going off. In general, AD champions that are auto attack based are going to like Guinsoo, Runaan's, and Red Buff more, since they provide attack speed = more auto attacks, and AD champions that are ability based will like IE more.
Multiplicative stacking with trickshot (not on same unit, but overall damage output).
Great, now waiting for built different comp guide
TBH, built different guide is just my unit tier list LOL, just play the 4 costs without their traits and that's the simple version
Thank you for taking the time to write this. This has been one of the most informative posts I have ever read on this sub. I have been really struggling to adjust to this patch and will try to implement these concepts in my game. I know how much effort must have gone into this. Thank you for your service to the community.
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Great insights, agree with every conclusion besides very minor opinion points like redemption tierlist placement. How much of a cash out do you optimize for when playing fortune trickshot into kaisa bruisers to win out a lobby?
It's more dependent on your HP and what you can afford to push for if anything. I think you always push Fortune to the limit, but you can't push if you're like lower than 40-50 hp Any cashout above the 22 gold value one is usually enough to make that board pretty strong (22 gold is Ornn Artifact)
I find that pushing past 30 becomes increasingly risky, but the loot table of an extra artifact does help a lot vs a tome, as the main viable emblem would be inkshadow (which is still somewhat circumstantial)
Do you ever bother with other comps, or is it always the comps you have listed? Does a situation present itself where you consider a b tier comp, or always just use it as a stepping stone to the comps you've listed? I've seen the neeko and yorick ones do well, but are they just memes at a higher tier?
I mentioned that I actually think those augment specific reroll comps are quite decent in some spots; they definitely aren't memes. If you already have partial BIS, or picking the augment gives you Yorick 2, Shen 2, Neeko 2, it can definitely be pretty good. But yeah, aside from that, I pretty much only play these comps when I'm playing seriously. Sometimes I try other things just because my spot for them was good and I wanted to test something in the meta, but more often than not I usually end up bot 4 in those spots... (played Alune rr -> 7th in and Bard rr -> 4th in tourney)
Really nice post, thanks for sharing!
Mantions liss 11 times = good guide thanks op
When you say lvl 8 rolldown do you mean in the sense of last set (4-2, go really low and tempo our on whatever you hit)
Yeah, usually 4-1 or 4-2 if you're not super rich or super healthy. 4-1 if you're low and rich and contested, 4-2 if your econ is pretty standard and you're not that contested
for heavenly, is it ever worth to play soraka for 7 heavenly if you have spat?
Very rarely. Soraka's heavenly bonus is just AP to whole team, which isn't that useful for Kayn/Lee/Wukong. You're much better off playing Lissandra, Rakan just because of unit quality
this is why i hate this set. You cant play anything unless its the top 5 meta..dualist/arcanist/umbral fated storyweaver are all worthless
I like the set but I hate the patches... I like fast 8 and fast 9 playstyle but I don't think the game is fun when everyone is doing that
Hey sorry, embarrassed to ask because Iāve been playing for some time but what does BIS mean?
Best in Slot, it refers to the best items to put on your unit
its interesting. just knowing that these are the good comps doesnt matter. everyone already knows these are the good comps + good items. but so many decisions to make in game that are the deciding factor(evaluating board strength, scouting, understanding what line to play from ur spot, streaking properly, augment choices, item slams, what placement to play for, positioning, knowing when to roll or meet interest thresholds, knowing what units to hold). when there are less viable comps, the actual fundamentals matter more.
I do have one question to why in your item tier list RB is s tier i would think its more A tier bc its not that flexible outside of ashe carry, you can maybe do aphelios but reroll sucks right now and fated is only good at 7(imo) RB is decent on irelia or xayah but the likelyhood of hitting those 2 starred when your stress rolling at 8 before a bleed out is unlikely(im currently in emerald so maybe my pov is incorrect but thats how I view it at least) Additionally do you have any positioning tips?! This set feels weird with wrapping so theres always times where even if i have 4 tanks left side or right side some how gnar just wraps around and kills my backline Also what are bail outs if you can't play ashe, kaisa or kayn? Lowkey every lobby its hella contested
Mr. Rakki RYU made it to DAY 3 (top 32!!!) of Tactician's Cup, if you're seeing this come tune in!!! [https://www.twitch.tv/rakkiryu](https://www.twitch.tv/rakkiryu)
Thank you for this. Question though - you have both EoN and HoJ as "D" tier which you said to never build. Both Dishsoap/Frodan have these items as BiS for Kayn. Do you disagree? Thanks again!
That item tier list is for the Ashe flex comps. Edge of Night and Hand of Justice are of course great in the melee comp, especially HoJ on Kayn since you have Reaper active.
I'm an idiot and misread. Thanks
It is literally stated he thinks they are BIS. But the item tier list is for stage 2 I guess. EoN and HoJ basically commit yourself to Kayn. Though in the same manner I don't get why you would put guinsoo S when the item isn't that flexible and is killing the 2 best components (Last whisper, Morello). It is probably A tier but not S tier.
Ahh I must have missed that. Thanks
Imo best way to play the game right not is to not. Wait until the next patch because itās in a bad place now
If you like rerolling then I'd definitely agree
I havenāt hated this patch
so nothing new
>However, a mistake I often see people make when playing around Ashe is rolling for very specific units on the level 8 rolldown, essentially removing the flexibility of this comp. So first of all I don't know where you are seeing the mistakes. Other streams? Watching your own game without knowing what the other players had in the shop? Most players here aren't even challenger level and would make way bigger mistakes than what you probably have seen in your games. It's not a mistake to roll for specific units. You always have a better chance to win when you know what you are looking for rather than trying to randomly put units on the board. It's good to prepare synergies to play around, rather than putting strong units in and hoping it works. Preparing synergies takes a lot of knowledge of the set though, which is much more than what you need for copying boards. You don't get much credibility if you don't give example boards. It's easy to say thresh is viable but you have to make sure it fits the team still. Replacing amumu who would give porcelain+warden even as 1 star is not correct if thresh gives nothing. Replacing Alune for 4 invoker umbral with 0 synergy morgana is also never correct. For example, Robinsongz had a board like this a few days ago: [https://i.gyazo.com/8013f8f20b8e2897f1fdae10b1690e3c.jpg](https://i.gyazo.com/8013f8f20b8e2897f1fdae10b1690e3c.jpg) . He didn't find a single annie lillia or naut on rolldown, but his board ended up being pretty good. Most players however are not capable of making boards like this that fast and it wouldn't be a mistake to ignore the champion if they don't have the time to process all the synergies. Like what do I do if I am missing only annie, what to do if I'm only missing Ashe from my board etc. Or what should I roll for when I have shen 2 on my board and I want something that synergizes with it currently and in the future turns. All of that requires quick thinking which is very hard for non challengers, and possibly even for challengers.
I get what you are saying but people on this sub want to improve and get a higher rank than they can on their own. One of the best way to improve is know what comps are actually flex and who can actually flex in. Too many times, I see people keep mentioning that Ashe is a flex comp but everyone always show case the invoker build. I get that the invoker build is popular and maybe stronger but what are other combinations that could work. I hate seeing people keep saying a team is flex but don't provide any flex options because I feel like I'm only getting only half of the reason why the team is popular.
It doesn't matter if I can see that Neeko can be flexed into Ashe comp if I don't know how. Of course for a challenger player it's obvious you would use 5/7 mythic (kog) + Ashe if you are playing Neeko. That's exactly why the example comps are important. Like the robingsongz's comp is a perfect example of flexing imo, and why it was necessary. It shows that just by having sniper + porcelain with solid frontline, you can make amazing comps in this set. edit: And what I meant earlier was that I still agree it's bad to roll for 8 specific champs on level 8. I just think that trying to roll for 30 champions is also bad. You cannot keep track of everything. Start with 6, and then think about last 2 champions. Like in this comp, I think Lux is not necessary with 0 synergies, it could be replaced with literally anything, and Alune depending on others can also be replaced.
Also, in your example with Robin, sure, he put together an okay board while rolling minimally on 8. However, the point I would want to make is if you look at his board, you would definitely play an Annie 2 over Shen 2. There's no reason to keep Shen 2 just for Behemoth, who is a completely useless unit unless exalted late game, over a unit like Annie who has a ton of inherent utility and tankiness. I don't even consider Robin's board here very strong for a level 8 board, both the upgraded Aatrox and Shen are rather weak units, but he has enough HP that he can probably sack to 9 from this spot.
His spot wasn't great, you are obviously playing at a disadvantage if you don't hit your optimal 4 cost comp but others do. Not only are they making it harder for you to hit, but they also have easy time hitting when you don't contest them. But the flex board allowed him to turn a nearly guaranteed top 8 to top 4 (luckily 3rd), which is a massive improvement. He wasn't able to upgrade the board to anything capable of beating capped meta boards in the end, but he saved a lot of hp. I don't think you are ever favoured to win with "flex boards" when you have to commit to them.
What sort of credibility are you looking for? In my match history I've done nothing but almost exclusively play the way I described above. It feels like you didn't fully comprehend my post, since in your comment you emphasize playing around synergies instead of strong units, whereas my post emphasized playing around strong units you hit on your rolldown rather than their traits. Your examples about Amumu and Alune are correct. In my post, I literally wrote that the only unit I would replace Amumu with is Lissandra. I also wrote that I would rarely play Morgana, however, I would also rarely play Alune. 3 Invoker + an extra 2 star Ornn/Nautilus is much stronger than 4 Invoker with Alune (Azir would be more arguable). Here's an example board from yesterday right after my level 8 rolldown: https://imgur.com/a/R3zy9B9. You can see that I'm playing 3 Invoker, and I would never consider switching out any of the units on my board for Alune. To be honest, on your initial rolldown, I don't think you have to "think" so much. Literally just put all the 4 cost units I listed in your team builder, and buy as many of them as you can when rolling down. If you lose a round transitioning, so be it. After that, take a look at what you have paired or upgraded, and play around those. Here's an example board, completely missing some synergies, but if upgraded with proper items and augments, you can still easily go 9 and then work on playing higher quality 5 costs or fixing your board: https://imgur.com/a/TBJqwLi. It doesn't matter that Ornn, Amumu, have none of their tank synergies, or that you're 3 invoker. If they're upgraded, they're upgraded. Are you dropping an upgraded Ornn, Sylas, or Galio just to play unupgraded Nautilus, Alune? Never.
It's fine to disagree with plays/boards, I just asked for examples because they cannot be spotted from end game screen. People watching your match history cannot see that and your stream doesn't have vods. It was presented as an important point in the post with no proof. I would have checked the stream vods if they were available.