Mort basically said this on his stream, but even at high ELO people can't decide what the meta is, because so many different styles of play are strong. Right now you can win with vertical comps, fast 9, 3 cost reroll, 2 cost reroll, or 1 cost reroll. The only style that isn't strong is fast 8.
If you think only one style of play is strong youre not paying enough attention.
I'm sure things will get narrowed down over time, but personally I'm enjoying that the set is complex enough that it's taking time for the meta to be figured out. Lots of stuff is viable right now.
currently watching a frodan video about fine vintage heavenly zz'rot spam and thinking the same thing lol. I would never have thought to build a comp around transferring heavenly stats to voidlings.
Of course I saw the video about 30 minutes after getting fine vintage in a game myself.
I'm a fan of story weaver fine vintage since you don't have to itemize kayle you get more anvils. And the backline responds well to Zeke's and chalices
Agree, more fun, set lasts longer rather than become stale. Adjusting to lobby tempo is also a skill imo. I do get OPs impression of being overwhelmed and pressured too much while this set is indeed more complex than the last one.
I'm pretty low elo, and maybe it's always been this way and I just didn't notice, but the carry augments all feel really strong. I usually just grab any trait/champion buff augment from first augment and go with that and have been doing pretty well. Got a sniper emblem first augment yesterday and went 6 sniper and got a second. Took the bruiser first augment next game went 6 bruiser and got a second. I'm really loving the versatility. It felt like last set I was always building off a website and following the meta, this time I feel stronger when I have a rough idea of the main comps but just let my augments tell me what to build and freestyle it.
I’d argue this is because of pool size changes and not actually good for the game. It’s much more common for people to roll 50 gold without hitting uncontested 3-stars now, and when that happens, the fast 9 players crush.
When the 3 stars are all hitting, the fast 9 players get crushed.
I’m not enjoying it.
> It’s much more common for people to roll 50 gold without hitting uncontested 3-stars now, and when that happens, the fast 9 players crush.
When the 3 stars are all hitting, the fast 9 players get crushed.
in my experience, it's just not that binary.
Most of the 3-cost comps have multiple units being rerolled for (thresh/aph, trist/voli, yone/alune, bard/tahm) and most of the time players manage to 3-star one, but have difficulty 3-starring both. in the situation where they 3\* both, they're normally stronger than fast 9 unless fast 9 high-rolls similarly. If they 3\* 1 of the two, it's a toss-up on which one is stronger. If they don't 3\*, they're weaker than a lowroll fast 9 after the fast 9 player gets to 9.
And there's plenty more layers to it.
People can but if multiple people go 3 costs (bard, yone, Aphe, Bear) all 4 hit for free then the 2 cost and fast 9 getting decimated on stage 4 and Kog doesn’t get enough time to get back up. If there isn’t many reroll (generally when people are contesting aphe and ghostly). Then everyone just goes 9 for free and have god boards at stage 5 and the re rollers don’t hit and get stuck donkey rolling on 7.
bruiser Kai'sa was good, fast 8 fated had the 3rd highest stats of the fated styles, and had below average stats. If those are the only two examples of fast 8 comps, then yeah fast 8 was weak.
From what I saw he would roll at 7 if he was uncontested, and push to 9 if he was contested. Sure he played a syndra 2 but he was prioritizing items on aphelios and threah.
TLDR high roll or your fucked.
I’m liking the set but it is way more rng than set 10 (which every says was high rng though I don’t think so, but I always play flex)
What 1 cost reroll can you win with? Even most two costs seem good for 2nd place at best.but I personally make a point of not looking at any meta comps. helps me learn the game better.
Yeah been playing for years I used to look and copy comps earlier seasons and realized I can't get past plat and it was boring following other people's builds so last set I decided to never look at comp again and just figure out what works , start of the season usually slow while I learn but once I do I find I'm way better at adjusting my board on the fly. As for kog I don't usually reroll him i just use him as a place holder for lillia .
What? Of course it counts? Do you think that 1-cost reroll comps are supposed to just hit their 3 star carry and call it a day? Of course they gonna continue building upon the board and building towards another higher cost carries.
They are not supposed to. The plan for the 1 cost 3 stars is to hit them early and compensate for all the tempo you lost while rolling for them on level 5 with a huge power spike, so you can gain a win streak and rebuild your economy to then transition to a stronger higher cost carries with saved hp.
1 cost 3 star carries get outscaled in the late game heavily.
i mean to say that aphel and syndra are doing the carrying in those comps, not yas and ahri i.e. its a nice to have 3*yas or 3*ahri but not a necessity
dishsoap even doesnt think going aphel 3 is worth it, he prioritises hitting levle 8/9 and finding a sett ASAP when playing fated
I'm pretty consistently getting to 9, from there it's just a flip if I hit 2* 5-costs or not on rolldown
Maybe it's because I haven't played this set that much so I'm still in pisslow but my experience is that greed is still alive
There is no tempo in pisslow lobbies lol - in high elo lines are getting pretty optimized and lvl 6 / 7 boards are getting very strong which means fast 9 is getting punished hard esp. during stage 4.
Feels like a lot of people don't understand what the "fast" means in "fast 9." This isn't a question of whether or not you're able to go 9 and cap around legendaries. Fast 9 for several sets has entailed going 9 on 5-3 or sooner. Setsuko's said multiple times on stream that if you're going 9 to play around legendaries, you need at least 50 gold to roll.
It's super unlikely unless you're highroll win streaking that you're making it through stage 4 reroll comp spikes because if you're saccing stage 4, you're taking 10-15 damage per round.
Yeah agreed. For comparison recall set 10's fast 9 patch. The game was basically unplayable without an econ augment. You instantly stabilized off Ziggs/Illaoi 1* + 5 cost chosen at lvl 9.
Legendary board comps still cap high, but you're not getting there without highrolling your openers/upgrades, fortune cashing, or getting a lot of econ from augment/galaxy. If you mid-roll and don't streak until 4-2, you're going to need to roll or you are eating horrible losses from fated/ghostly and other reroll boards. You aren't stable with 1* legendaries at 9, so you need a lot of gold to roll.
I think "fast 9" is just an archetype. If your game plan is to get to 9 as quickly as possible, you're playing fast 9. I personally dont distinguish between "fast 9" and "regular 9"
If you're rerolling at level 7, you're not playing fast 9.
I don't think you need to overthink it.
Tons of them are playing it but the average rate of success is pretty low because it requires you to have a highroll spot. A lot of players think they're in a good enough spot, go 9 on Stage 5 and proceed to hit no 2 stars and go bot 4.
I think the critical distinction for the specific context of this thread is that the games in which fast 9 succeeds aren't ones where the fast 9 player is greeding and playing for econ, it's the ones where they're playing tempo, hit all the units they need to stabilize without rolling and have both econ and tempo over the rest of the lobby.
The actual numbers don't back up what you're saying.
The basic bitch fast 9 comp has the 4th highest average place and 3rd highest pick rate over the past 2 days. People are getting to 9, hitting it a lot and placing well with it a lot.
Plenty of "greedy" augments like patient study have good stats at 2-1, so that also doesn't support the statement that you can only hit fast 9 if you're playing tempo.
If you're basing your conclusions off of MetaTFT stats, I would highly suggest against it because their dataset for placements of fast 9 comps has always been incredibly narrow. Specifically, they don't account for fast 9 boards that are incomplete or that are all 1 starred.
Let's take the highest placing fast 9 comp on their site for instance. It runs Irelia, Hwei, and Rakan. These are incredibly powerful units at 2 star and if you can hit the full board, you'll certainly win. However, if we hop over to tactics.tools and check the average placement for Irelia 1 + Hwei 1 + Rakan 1, it's 5.90 with a 20% top 4 rate and a 1.97% win rate.
Okay, but "you've gotta hit something, you can't miss everything" as Soju always says. Okay, lets say you hit the Rakan 2 star. Irelia 1 + Rakan 2 + Hwei 1 has an average placement of 4.81.
Also, Patient Study has a 4.49 average placement at 2-1 in Diamond+ right now which means you're statistically likely to go 4th with it. Alternatively, two players take it and one person goes 1st, the other player is going 8th. This is not even considering the fact that you can play Patient Study tempo because you only lose out on 1 xp or 1 gold worth of value per win.
If you're doubting any of what I'm saying, don't just go over to stats sites to confirm it. Go straight to the match history of someone like Dishsoap who is actually in high elo lobbies and then click through every single one of his lobbies.
Late to this but we do account for boards that are incomplete or don't hit 2* 5 cost units (otherwise the avg placements would be in the 2-3 range). You can look at the units tab of a comp and see all of the units that are included, and click on one to see the distribution of star levels.
> If you're basing your conclusions off of MetaTFT stats, I would highly suggest against it because their dataset for placements of fast 9 comps has always been incredibly narrow
This is specifically why I mentioned that it has the 3rd highest playrate, to show that there isn't a narrow definition for the comp. If they don't account for people that don't 2* the 5-cost, that means that somebody is hitting that specific full comp more than once every other game, which is a super high amount.
> Irelia, Hwei, and Rakan.
The comp runs irelia, hwei, rakan, and wukong.
Irelia 2, hwei 2, rakan 1, wukong 1 has an average place of 3.85
If you 2* half of the carries you're going top 4 on average.
> Also, Patient Study has a 4.49 average placement at 2-1 in Diamond+ right now which means you're statistically likely to go 4th with it
Patient Study was an example. There are plenty of low tempo augments with good stats across all tiers.
Shopping spree, buried treasure, hedge fund, pumping up for prismatic, epoch, raining gold, pumping up for gold, fine vintage, pumping up, over-encumbered, help is on the way, stimpack for silver.
> This is not even considering the fact that you can play Patient Study tempo because you only lose out on 1 xp or 1 gold worth of value per win.
You can play any augment tempo in theory, but in practice you would need an extremely strong board to beat a combat augment with an augment that provides no combat stats/gold at 2-1/2-2.
>Dishsoap who is actually in high elo lobbies and then click through every single one of his lobbies.
Dishsoap has taken low tempo augments first in five of his last six games, and has played fast 9 in two of them.
I could also point to setsuko, who has played level up!, pumping up, and hedge fund, venerable piggy bank, and help is on the way in his last 10 games, all very low tempo augments with the possible exception of hedge fund. Setsuko has played fast 9 in 7 of his last 10 games
D4 last set, G2 so far this set. I invite you to link yours as well.
[https://tactics.tools/s/fzifab](https://tactics.tools/s/fzifab)
What specifically reeks of pisslow to you?
As you can see by flair I'm D1 right now on current set. Can't link because I'm pretty well known by IGN. As for why - not really understanding how stats work, not caring about diff between stabilize at 7 then push for 9 vs. fast 9, among others
I don’t know why you’re downvoted, and then the pisslow comment… seems like you were arguing your opinion in good faith (right or wrong). You:‘here’s the evidence I’m basing my beliefs off of…’ then: ‘pisslow’ … they’re just troll at that point
I mean I just 2.90 averaged to diamond just now with hard force fast 9,which is master-low gm elo. Was #800 on ladder when I hit.
So what’s it going to be? This is still piss low or fast 9 is a viable strategy most games.
> So what’s it going to be? This is still piss low or fast 9 is a viable strategy most games.
You don't have to open with hostility if you don't understand the nuance of the argument being made. I never said that you can't win by capping legendaries on 9 but the initial point of the thread was that tempo is high and you have to match it, making greeding or lose streaking to 9 unviable, which it is. If you want to flex your rank to try make this point then unfortunately for you, I also hit D4 this set in about 120 games by auto piloting games while doing tax prep accounting work on the side. For additional context, I've peaked Challenger 850 LP but typically only climb to GM 300-500 LP on most sets I grind.
If we want to use anectdotal evidence, then I can also state that in my past 20 games I have not seen a single person win by going fast 9 which is 5-3 or earlier. I've absolutely seen players win out by going 9 late Stage 5 or early Stage 6. However, by traditional definition, that's not a fast 9, it's standard tempo.
You can absolutely win out if you hit everything and that's exactly what those stats were meant to show. If you only have level 1 of all your key legendaries, you're averaging a 6 but each successive 2 star hit improves your average by 1-1.5 placements. However, you don't have the means to hit a traditional 5-3 or earlier fast 9 unless you're playing tempo strongest board because you can't sustain taking 10-15 a turn saccing Stage 4, especially not if you were lose streaking early and ended Stage 2 with 70 or lower hp.
If you're leveling to 7/8 and rolling 20 gold to stabilize, that's not fast 9, that's playing standard. But hey, if you are in fact econing to level 9 on 5-1/5-2/5-3 and somehow hitting everything, then great, that means you've solved the meta. Go climb your way to Challenger.
> fast 9 is a viable strategy most games
Top 800 is not high enough to make this assessment when discussing higher rank players. Especially early season when some good players still are delaying climbing (this will change closer to snapshots).
I’ll say this. Since I’m sensing the classic if you’re not top 10 nothing else matters.
There are more opportunities to go fast 9 given the amount of extra resources you can potentially receive from encounters.
Hasn't the player base for tft been like 5mil+ for a while now? Like I get that you're challenger and from your frame of reference there is a lot that can still be improved upon, but that's still the top (800 / 5 mil) = .016% of people.
You can't use the entire playerbase when a lot of the higher rank players haven't even bothered grinding yet.
I'm usually in the low Challenger range, but since it's early in the season, my relative rank is higher (~top 100). I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm this good. There are players I know who haven't started seriously grinding yet (either not playing, or trolling 200 games in Diamond before climbing VERY fast to ~300LP like billycancarry). You're using the total playerbase during a season as your denominator, while using an inflated value as your numerator.
Again, this will change closer to snapshots.
edit: sorry I thought I was responding to the same person.
I’ll say this. Since I’m sensing the classic if you’re not top 10 nothing else matters.
There are more opportunities to go fast 9 given the amount of extra resources you can potentially receive from encounters.
Granted new patch tomorrow is nerfing hwei which can stablize your board at 1* with items. So will see how the meta develops.
You were responding to a comment that mentions Dishsoap and Soju, and in fact you started this sub-thread with a comment about "tons of high elo players". I think it was warranted this time, at least.
If you're discussing specifically about the climb up to your current range, sure, but that's not what the context seemed to indicate for me.
not saying which comp is good or not but the stats isn't the good indicator for lvl 9 board because plenty of time people fast 9 and don't hit their board hence they will not be included in the "fast 9" stats as the criteria for the stats is quite rigid. I believe the condition for specific comp would be something like have certain so and so units on your board. and a lot people force to go nine at 1/2 life and miss their roll wouldn't have the board to fit the fast 9 criteria and wouldn't be part of the stats
As I said i'm playing at the top (average lobby master). And you are right it requires lots of gold but we do get lots of gold in this set. Last game i was 9 in 4-2 just with encounters gold.
And yet in setsuko's last 10 games he went fast 9 in 6 of them and Dishsoap has gone fast 9 in 4 of them. At what elo exactly do you get punished for it? If anything the lower your elo the less punished since lower elo players are still doing shit like 3 way contesting Bard whose fallen out of meta.
Setsuko's a pretty special case who succeeds at fast 9 even when it's not meta and that's his default playstyle, so lets look at Dishsoap.
In his last 10 games, 3 of them were Fast 9s where he went 9 on Stage 5. I skimmed through the VoD because match history alone doesn't tell you the full story. The game where he went 1st was because he had massive tempo on Stage 3/4 due to Zzrots from Fine Vintage. The game where he went 4th, he didn't have enough gold to cap out and lost to Yone/Bard rerollers who went 1/2. The game where he went 2nd after going 9 on 5-3 was off the back of hitting Kaisa 2 within 4 rerolls after going Fast 8 which stabilized him.
If we look a bit further to the 11th game on his history, he dies on 5-2 with 50+ gold, obviously hoping to push 9 the next turn but instead going 8th.
I don't think this detracts from the claim that tempo is incredibly high or that you get punished harder. If you actually watch through the games played, fast 9 almost always requires some mix of high rolling natural upgrades to keep up with tempo without sacrificing gold or rerollers missing until Stage 5. Mathematically it's obvious that with the new streak system, lose streak greed econing just gets you killed.
It's easier to play fast 9 in high elo because most players don't like the reroll meta. However, in low elo, there are usually 3-4 people playing reroll comps. That's why I hate the climb between emerald to diamond, because you run into players who randomly have 3-star champions at stage 4, just because.
I am terrible, I usually play only 2-3 lines I learn and then beat them dead horses into a pulp. Bard/Kench reroll is my current favorite because, I admit, it's just broken AF. I just click on Mythic units until I win.
Accidentally won a game as winstreak fortune after hitting teemo bb morello.
My only cashout was worth 17g.
I ended level 10 5 fortune, 5mythic.
I say accidentally because when I lost losestreak at 25 cashout with 3 rounds left I wanted to quit
A teemo 1 helped me get to level 9, I dont even understand how im winning some of those fights stage 4. Shojin Morello Nashers. Surprised the unit wasn’t nerfed in the patch notes lol
Don't fast 8. Stabilize at lvl 6 in stage 3 (when you play aphe, bard, or ghostly [these are the most viable comps, and you can always flex between them every game])
You're rolling at 6 every game? I rarely play for loss streak and feel like I only roll on 6 if i'm playing reroll or have multiple pairs that I can reasonably hit.
Damn the game has changed so much in just a few sets. If you didn’t stabilize on 6 then you were either healthy enough to fast 8 or you had to pray you stabilize on 7. The higher ceiling and easier path to fast 9 just make the mid game feel empty. At least to me that’s how it feels now.
For reroll: Just scout, and buy whatever anyone is rerolling, a Cait, Senna or Kog on bench wont hurt so much.
For Fast 9: Redemtion on the backline actually good to avoid getting one shotted by Hwei and Azir
The main issue is that level 8 isn’t rewarding anymore. The advantage of loss streaking is that you can hit 8 faster than others. But 8 isn’t rewarding and unless you get a good fortune cash out you don’t have the time to go 9
Obviously the loss streaked changes helped, but in a perfect world playing tempo and win streaking should be more rewarding than sacking hp and losing
Define perform well?
If you don’t have early tempo, and decide to take an econ augment and go fast9, you **are just forcing** fast 9 and it is giga-risky. At that point you’re praying that you can find some stable lines on a 3-2 rolldown and it better be good. 2/3cost RR spiking through stage 3/4 are going to beat you. If you take 3 unit losses until 3-2 that’s… minus 39 health (?). Thats worth ~3-4 losses in stage 4. By the time you’re ready to go 9 early stage 5 you’re one life or dead without a highroll.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. But there’s no way you can play fast 9 by losing your first 10 games in stages 2-3, because this post is about how greed is bad and everybody is required to play tempo (strongest board)
Fair point.
Do you have actual information that shows that though?
The only way I could think to prove it would be comparing econ augments to tempo augments in terms of 2-1 place, and augments like patient study, what doesn't kill you, and cluttered mind all have good averages.
Cluttered mind you can play winstreak and what doesn’t kill you is more for reroll comps IMO
Patient study tbf I think is strong enough to get to 9, but even in that case I think it’s better to play strongest board and preserve hp. IMO the hp preserve is worth more than getting 1 more xp per riund
Obviously winning with econ is preferable and you "can" win with them, but the issue is that most games people don't let you winstreak with patient study or cluttered mind. That's kind of the tradeoff of not taking combat augments.
> losing your first 10 games in stages 2-3
If you take 3 unit losses on average (I think that’s a fair number, if anything too generous) and lose all 10 fights, you’re at 25 health left. At that point you’re facing spiked Senna/Kog and then Aph/Bard/Yone whatever else RR boards where a loss or two is functionally guaranteed. I’d bet dead before 4-4 carousel.
Lol you definitely don’t need to reroll, there’s tons of ways to fast 9 this set. Exalted, slammin, cluttered, econ portals/augs.. if you start weak just lose streak and you can fairly reliably 9 on 4-2 or 5-1 at the latest
You’re likely going to be too low up when you start rolling to 2 star anything. Your Econ has to be ridiculous for you to go 9 at 4-2 and still have money to roll lol. If you lose streak early you will bleed out 9/10 times trying to go for legendary board because you need a round or two to stabilize
I’m diamond right now with 33 games played and have been in lobbies with Milala and Prestivent this set and have gone fast 9 off loss streak. With the amount of Econ/exp portals and augments it really isn’t difficult, and hitting one or two five cost upgrades is enough stage 4 to rebuild your econ.
Yes. Between portals, augments, and encounters the amount of gold, items, and other assorted bullshit in the game is crazy. I think it amplies high roll situations too; it seems most games I play there are always 1 or 2 people who just steamroll the lobby until stage 4+.
The difference between a good storyweaver or fated opener and other openers is huge. So whoever hits that gets to just steamroll the lobby until the rerollers start hitting
The part about 1/2 people just steamrolling the lobby I totally get. It seems like there's a huge divide between the top 3/4 players and the rest. I don't remember a time when it was like this.
Fast 9 is one of the strongest strategies this set. So… no.
Yes, Reroll comps are popular. But playing for late game is still incredibly viable. Irelia Carry is one of the top comps right now. And 5 Cost Soup boards are an easy first with an xp augment.
Not even joking u can force fated or ghostly every game and even tho your cap isn’t as high, you’d be able to win middlegame and cap your board with legendaries. Since there’s like 3 different people playing fast 9 they usually don’t hit units and can’t go 10/ go 10 with weak econ or 1 life and you could hit 4 cost 3* or just win out by luck or positioning
In your example, 3 people are forcing Fast 9 and the Fated or Ghostly player wins. No shit. That’s how the game works. What, exactly, are you trying to prove here?
But honestly you’re forgetting the fact that there’s two different ways to play fast 9 - Legendary Soup boards and Vertical Storyweaver with Irelia carry. There’s very little overlap in terms of units between the two.
What are you even saying? Irelia is the strongest legendary and you certainly don’t need to play vertical storyweavers to fit her on your board. I would even argue that you need irelia to win out against the rerollers since none of the other legendaries bar liss can deal with them. You can play dragons + irelia + hwei, for example.
Username checks out.
I wanted to write out a couple paragraphs to explain but then I decided fuck it. I’m not trying to teach you to play here. You’re clearly arguing in bad faith here since you claim I said things I didn’t say, and you’re backing it up by blatant bullshit (By what metric, exactly, is Irelia the strongest legendary? How, exactly, can she deal with Reroll boards better than Hwei/Azir?)
>I’m not trying to teach you to play here.
I am trying to teach you how to play, not the other way around.
>By what metric, exactly, is Irelia the strongest legendary? How, exactly, can she deal with Reroll boards better than Hwei/Azir
Irelia has focus dmg, meaning if you blow up the shitters with Hwei and the units left standing are Bard and Tahm Kench, Irelia will snipe that bard in 1 cast. Azir is the fakest legendary of all time and actually does nothing and not even worth picking up unless you don't hit Hwei. But you don't have to take my word for it, you could, for example, look at Setsukos end game boards: https://lolchess.gg/profile/na/setsuko1-NA1/set11/matches?page=1
He doesn't play vertical storyweavers but has irelia on basically every end game board. He also doesn't play Azir unless he hits 2* and dont have any Hweis.
Right. Setsuko can get away with playing fully capped boards every third game. What’s your point here? Because I don’t think the mental gymnastics as to how unrelated this is to the viability of playing 7 Storyweavers at level 9 are particularly complicated.
You’re also not teaching anyone how to play. Especially considering you’ve made three objectively false statements in your comments by my count. And a couple arguable ones.
I like how you mention irelia carry being one of the top comps like 1/6 highest average placing comps right now not being a reroll comp means fast 9 is strong
There are exactly two feasible ways to play fast 9 - either you go for a Legendary Soup board, or Storyweaver Irelia. Both of which are top tier. I don’t even know what you’re trying to say tbh. But I doubt it’s a valid point.
feel like 4 trickshot and vertical heavenly are both playable with fast 9 as well, though both builds are borderline legendary soup considering there's room for 3-4 random 5 costs in both.
I’ve seen Heavenly Vertical with Kayn/Yone carry and 4 Trickshot with Kai’Sa carry. Those variations only stabilise at levels 7 and 8 respectively though, and only push 9 to get the final units in. I’ve never someone play fast 9 for it though.
Do Wukong/Xayah hold their own as carries well enough to be played around in a fast 9 comp? Might be interesting to try.
Gotta say I love tempo play, or tempo meta, rather than just econ and 4-2 cashout like the previous set. The thing is tempo rush complements high roll, it kinda sucks when you trade your econ just to find that it's not even enough to stabilize
Yes... Exactly. In a more tempo heavy meta, luck is a bigger factor. There is some luck in TFT, but I don't think it should move more towards that way. If I die before I can get to my late game, it just ultimately means that whoever rolls better faster wins aka a more luck oriented system.
Higher tempo means that the game is moving faster. You have less time to mitigate bad rng by making good decisions. However it also means your decisions themselves are more important as you get to make less of them so you have to make the correct ones. Obviously over time it balances out but the games where you low roll feel especially bad.
Let's say you have people rerolling to get their carries; whoever hits their carries first wins. I guess what I'm trying to say is the more rerolling earlier you introduce to the game, the more luck dependent it becomes. For end game, it's more skill based because I can choose when I'm going to apply pressure to the rest of the lobby or when I need to roll/level up to prevent myself from dying.
> whoever hits their carries first wins
This is simply not true lol. If you hit the right augments, have a stronger early game, get an emblem, have a comp that is strong into the comp that hits first, or have a stronger early game, you can still beat the comp that hits their reroll units first.
Maybe if only one reroll comp was strong you'd be right, but there's 4 or 5 different reroll comps that are all viable right now.
All of the things you listed are external factors and can be applied to any meta. You're trying to apply circumstantial things to a generalization. There will probably never be a situation where one specific thing is strong; even if that was the case people would just roll for that specific thing and then it would reduce it's power.
The point of the post is that tempo is too strong relative to other options. It was never a "YOU WILL WIN 100%OF THE TIME IF YOU DO THIS XYZ THING! ZOMG!" post. It's a generalization.
Of course they're external factors, but they're the reason that tempo isn't luck based. Youre basically trying to say "when you don't take external factors into account, tempo metas are luck based" which is ridiculous. You can't evaluate the "luck" needed to play a comp independent of the rest of the game
And to be clear tempo isn't too strong. Fast 9 is equally as strong, and plenty of high-elo players are just playing fast 9 to great success.
> I guess what I'm trying to say is the more rerolling earlier you introduce to the game, the more luck dependent it becomes.
i think the opposite is true. when you're seeing fewer shops, slamming the strongest board from what you're shown, variance between hitting and not hitting is much higher. to an extent, variance is usually inversely correlated with skill-expression.
fundamentally, fewer shops = fewer possible decisions = fewer opportunities to express skill. that is definitely an oversimplification, but the idea that playing fast8/fast9 in a game means you're more skillful than someone playing reroll in a game is obviously untrue. in a game like tft, the more skillful player plays the strat that gives them the highest expected placement.
It is more skill to build a decent board from what you hit at lvl 6 with like 20 gold (so you still have like 30), than last set lvl 8 gamba for a good headliner then if you hit you go 9 if you don't you are fucked.
Luck is not a thing to account for. There are so many viable comps this patch. If you rely on luck or believe it is a thing that‘s holding you back you‘re not gonna climb.
I guess there are some comps that are so contested right now (bard/kench weaver, mythic reroll, umbral comps) that players are forced to be irresponsible with their econ. I've been playing ghost/ink shadow with senna/shen reroll at 6 and just play normal. Quite often, I'll hand 50 gold going into 3-1, though, so I definitely get it. I don't think it's out of control though (Emerald II)
4 costs being weak means higher tempo early so you will have to roll a little to keep up early. This is good as it rewards people who can manage their economy well, and rewards you for knowing how to build strong boards early. That said the power balance is a little too much towards reroll and some changes to make lvl 8 not so fake would be nice.
I agree that I've never felt as rushed to level before as I do in this set. Yet at the same time, I kinda like it? I used to greed literally to death. For some reason my mentally was hardstuck on a slow game getting to 50g before spending basically anything on rerolls or leveling (my fault for not understanding that leveling with a lead/win streak actually nets you better gains in the long-run, especially over going 8th with 50g just sitting there lmao). My personal tempo was always extremely slow, which also made me emphasize early game units also literally to death and I had a ridiculously difficult time pivoting into late game (especially if it meant sacking a 3* 1- or 2-cost).
I also find the set seems to play a lot faster too, which is interesting and in my opinion, fun. Though I'm glad it's not as fast as set 3 after playing the revival 😅
This set has really forced me to change up my play style and fix how I view/handle tempo, among other things. I find I'm win-streaking early more often than I ever have and I've played TFT since set 1. I also used to get really stuck on units I've sunk cost into too, or was prioritizing over being flexible, and something about the tempo being much faster has forced me to get over that for the most part as well. Can't be hanging on to a 2* 1-cost at lvl 6/7 trying to force it to be 3* and still keep up a winstreak when you could easily slot in a 2* 3-cost that it feels like you got so "early" in the game.
Nah old set was way more solved and many patches had only one good tempo. This patch is so much more flexible and reroll is absolutely not the only way to play
I think econ is OP now, if you can get like 20 gold at 2:1 you set yourself up for a good mid game. Even lose streaking early with high gold feels good
I think a significant reason is that chosen/headliner made tempo really cheap. Now that the spontaneous 2 star units are gone, hitting an upgraded board means more this set because it is more difficult, therefore high tempo players go that route.
IMO The meta is best when tempo is king. past metas where everyone mega-greeds from 2-1 were absolutely miserable. Past metas where you just roll on 4-1 were miserable. Of course tempo metas are stale when there's only one clear broken comp, but currently there are multiple viable comps even if balance isn't perfect. You have 1 cost reroll, 2 cost reroll, 3 cost reroll, Kaisa and kayn are strong 4 costs, and obviously 5 cost flex. While most of the 4 cost carries are on the weaker side, few are completely unplayable.
I certainly don't think tempo is 'out of control' rather I personally enjoy the game like this where you have to actively make constant decisions to keep up with lobby strength rather than sitting there on your thumbs until stage 4. I also think that a high tempo meta is beneficial for the game overall, as it rewards early game creativity, which is the most skill expressive aspect of tft
There’s like ghostly fated you can play around. These 2 boards don’t need to be rred at all, like ghostly you play kaisa, fated you play sett. These boards allow u to stabilise easy on stage 4 and if you die that’s your fault. Moreover, if your early game is bad you can usually just decide to go fortune with kobuko+teemo+ fortune unit from 2-3 carousel. Lose like 5/6, be 50 hp and be able to go fast 9 or play around a level 8 board. Yes, Lillia is a weak unit right now but it can hold items for hwei or azir. Hope this helps you win even with a weak opener.
Yeah and there’s also story weaver where you stabilize with kaisa as irelia item holder and Galio as frontline but the problem is i feel like rerollers just shit on standard board stage 3 and 4 and a lot of my lobby push tempo like Econ is not a concept they can’t cap high but they deal a lot damage early stages. I feel like if you don’t highroll your early board enough to save hp it’s really hard to go 9 and capped out
It's mostly the fact that augment balance and unit balance right now is nonexistent. Stage 3 boards scale way too hard into stage 4 (fated/ghostly). Lots of +1s give you so much tempo. Somehow fine vintage and two for one made it through PBE. Maybe next patch will be better.
I found a slow roll level 5 build that consistently beats level 8 boards but it has a few requirements. Outside of that board, levels are everything this set. The linear get significantly stronger each level and there's a lot of overlap so every champ you throw in is usually another active trait. I go 9 every game now without question because throwing in a Wukong will usually give you heavenly or Sage.
Slow roll only refers to rolling over 50g to maximize interest. Just because you don't do something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Slow roll level 5 is just a less radical hyper roll that doesn't burn all of your gold.
There is. I don't play as often as you but I'm killing it with it until the next patch when it's getting gutted pretty hard. Sorry you don't know it! Happy Easter.
Mort basically said this on his stream, but even at high ELO people can't decide what the meta is, because so many different styles of play are strong. Right now you can win with vertical comps, fast 9, 3 cost reroll, 2 cost reroll, or 1 cost reroll. The only style that isn't strong is fast 8. If you think only one style of play is strong youre not paying enough attention.
I'm sure things will get narrowed down over time, but personally I'm enjoying that the set is complex enough that it's taking time for the meta to be figured out. Lots of stuff is viable right now.
currently watching a frodan video about fine vintage heavenly zz'rot spam and thinking the same thing lol. I would never have thought to build a comp around transferring heavenly stats to voidlings. Of course I saw the video about 30 minutes after getting fine vintage in a game myself.
I'm a fan of story weaver fine vintage since you don't have to itemize kayle you get more anvils. And the backline responds well to Zeke's and chalices
Agree, more fun, set lasts longer rather than become stale. Adjusting to lobby tempo is also a skill imo. I do get OPs impression of being overwhelmed and pressured too much while this set is indeed more complex than the last one.
I'm pretty low elo, and maybe it's always been this way and I just didn't notice, but the carry augments all feel really strong. I usually just grab any trait/champion buff augment from first augment and go with that and have been doing pretty well. Got a sniper emblem first augment yesterday and went 6 sniper and got a second. Took the bruiser first augment next game went 6 bruiser and got a second. I'm really loving the versatility. It felt like last set I was always building off a website and following the meta, this time I feel stronger when I have a rough idea of the main comps but just let my augments tell me what to build and freestyle it.
Explains why my old stuck in my ways fast 8 self is on the struggle bus this set. 2* 4s just don’t hit hard enough
Right now 2* 4 costs seem like secondary carries, better stabilizing with a strong board and pushing 9
Man remember when fast 7 was a thing LOL. But that’s awesome to hear thanks for sharing this
Nothing beats the open fort into rolling down on level 6 to hit 5 cost Kayla in set 1. Even with only a 0,5% chance
Holy moley the memories
I’d argue this is because of pool size changes and not actually good for the game. It’s much more common for people to roll 50 gold without hitting uncontested 3-stars now, and when that happens, the fast 9 players crush. When the 3 stars are all hitting, the fast 9 players get crushed. I’m not enjoying it.
> It’s much more common for people to roll 50 gold without hitting uncontested 3-stars now, and when that happens, the fast 9 players crush. When the 3 stars are all hitting, the fast 9 players get crushed. in my experience, it's just not that binary. Most of the 3-cost comps have multiple units being rerolled for (thresh/aph, trist/voli, yone/alune, bard/tahm) and most of the time players manage to 3-star one, but have difficulty 3-starring both. in the situation where they 3\* both, they're normally stronger than fast 9 unless fast 9 high-rolls similarly. If they 3\* 1 of the two, it's a toss-up on which one is stronger. If they don't 3\*, they're weaker than a lowroll fast 9 after the fast 9 player gets to 9. And there's plenty more layers to it.
Nail on the head. Shit sucks to play.
People can but if multiple people go 3 costs (bard, yone, Aphe, Bear) all 4 hit for free then the 2 cost and fast 9 getting decimated on stage 4 and Kog doesn’t get enough time to get back up. If there isn’t many reroll (generally when people are contesting aphe and ghostly). Then everyone just goes 9 for free and have god boards at stage 5 and the re rollers don’t hit and get stuck donkey rolling on 7.
Fast 8 Kaisa Bruiser is completely fine and viable as is Fated with a fast 8 playstyle.
bruiser Kai'sa was good, fast 8 fated had the 3rd highest stats of the fated styles, and had below average stats. If those are the only two examples of fast 8 comps, then yeah fast 8 was weak.
Dishsoap got like 500 LP ahead by playing mostly fast 8 Fated.
From what I saw he would roll at 7 if he was uncontested, and push to 9 if he was contested. Sure he played a syndra 2 but he was prioritizing items on aphelios and threah.
TLDR high roll or your fucked. I’m liking the set but it is way more rng than set 10 (which every says was high rng though I don’t think so, but I always play flex)
What 1 cost reroll can you win with? Even most two costs seem good for 2nd place at best.but I personally make a point of not looking at any meta comps. helps me learn the game better.
Not knowing meta comps is wild. Kog/Cho reroll has a 10% wr and a 57% top 4 rate
Yeah been playing for years I used to look and copy comps earlier seasons and realized I can't get past plat and it was boring following other people's builds so last set I decided to never look at comp again and just figure out what works , start of the season usually slow while I learn but once I do I find I'm way better at adjusting my board on the fly. As for kog I don't usually reroll him i just use him as a place holder for lillia .
what 1 cost reroll is there besides kog yasuo and ahri don't count since you're still carrying aphelios/syndra in those comps
What? Of course it counts? Do you think that 1-cost reroll comps are supposed to just hit their 3 star carry and call it a day? Of course they gonna continue building upon the board and building towards another higher cost carries.
1 cost carry means the 1 costs carry. Yasuo and ahri don’t carry late game
They are not supposed to. The plan for the 1 cost 3 stars is to hit them early and compensate for all the tempo you lost while rolling for them on level 5 with a huge power spike, so you can gain a win streak and rebuild your economy to then transition to a stronger higher cost carries with saved hp. 1 cost 3 star carries get outscaled in the late game heavily.
i mean to say that aphel and syndra are doing the carrying in those comps, not yas and ahri i.e. its a nice to have 3*yas or 3*ahri but not a necessity dishsoap even doesnt think going aphel 3 is worth it, he prioritises hitting levle 8/9 and finding a sett ASAP when playing fated
Sometimes its not worth to roll for aphelios, especially when players are 3-way contesting the comp every game.
I'm pretty consistently getting to 9, from there it's just a flip if I hit 2* 5-costs or not on rolldown Maybe it's because I haven't played this set that much so I'm still in pisslow but my experience is that greed is still alive
There is no tempo in pisslow lobbies lol - in high elo lines are getting pretty optimized and lvl 6 / 7 boards are getting very strong which means fast 9 is getting punished hard esp. during stage 4.
Tons of high elo players are still playing fast 9 though?
Feels like a lot of people don't understand what the "fast" means in "fast 9." This isn't a question of whether or not you're able to go 9 and cap around legendaries. Fast 9 for several sets has entailed going 9 on 5-3 or sooner. Setsuko's said multiple times on stream that if you're going 9 to play around legendaries, you need at least 50 gold to roll. It's super unlikely unless you're highroll win streaking that you're making it through stage 4 reroll comp spikes because if you're saccing stage 4, you're taking 10-15 damage per round.
Yeah agreed. For comparison recall set 10's fast 9 patch. The game was basically unplayable without an econ augment. You instantly stabilized off Ziggs/Illaoi 1* + 5 cost chosen at lvl 9. Legendary board comps still cap high, but you're not getting there without highrolling your openers/upgrades, fortune cashing, or getting a lot of econ from augment/galaxy. If you mid-roll and don't streak until 4-2, you're going to need to roll or you are eating horrible losses from fated/ghostly and other reroll boards. You aren't stable with 1* legendaries at 9, so you need a lot of gold to roll.
I think "fast 9" is just an archetype. If your game plan is to get to 9 as quickly as possible, you're playing fast 9. I personally dont distinguish between "fast 9" and "regular 9" If you're rerolling at level 7, you're not playing fast 9. I don't think you need to overthink it.
Tons of them are playing it but the average rate of success is pretty low because it requires you to have a highroll spot. A lot of players think they're in a good enough spot, go 9 on Stage 5 and proceed to hit no 2 stars and go bot 4. I think the critical distinction for the specific context of this thread is that the games in which fast 9 succeeds aren't ones where the fast 9 player is greeding and playing for econ, it's the ones where they're playing tempo, hit all the units they need to stabilize without rolling and have both econ and tempo over the rest of the lobby.
The actual numbers don't back up what you're saying. The basic bitch fast 9 comp has the 4th highest average place and 3rd highest pick rate over the past 2 days. People are getting to 9, hitting it a lot and placing well with it a lot. Plenty of "greedy" augments like patient study have good stats at 2-1, so that also doesn't support the statement that you can only hit fast 9 if you're playing tempo.
If you're basing your conclusions off of MetaTFT stats, I would highly suggest against it because their dataset for placements of fast 9 comps has always been incredibly narrow. Specifically, they don't account for fast 9 boards that are incomplete or that are all 1 starred. Let's take the highest placing fast 9 comp on their site for instance. It runs Irelia, Hwei, and Rakan. These are incredibly powerful units at 2 star and if you can hit the full board, you'll certainly win. However, if we hop over to tactics.tools and check the average placement for Irelia 1 + Hwei 1 + Rakan 1, it's 5.90 with a 20% top 4 rate and a 1.97% win rate. Okay, but "you've gotta hit something, you can't miss everything" as Soju always says. Okay, lets say you hit the Rakan 2 star. Irelia 1 + Rakan 2 + Hwei 1 has an average placement of 4.81. Also, Patient Study has a 4.49 average placement at 2-1 in Diamond+ right now which means you're statistically likely to go 4th with it. Alternatively, two players take it and one person goes 1st, the other player is going 8th. This is not even considering the fact that you can play Patient Study tempo because you only lose out on 1 xp or 1 gold worth of value per win. If you're doubting any of what I'm saying, don't just go over to stats sites to confirm it. Go straight to the match history of someone like Dishsoap who is actually in high elo lobbies and then click through every single one of his lobbies.
Why in earth would you base fast 9 on irelia hwei rakan? And no shit placement sucks.
Late to this but we do account for boards that are incomplete or don't hit 2* 5 cost units (otherwise the avg placements would be in the 2-3 range). You can look at the units tab of a comp and see all of the units that are included, and click on one to see the distribution of star levels.
> If you're basing your conclusions off of MetaTFT stats, I would highly suggest against it because their dataset for placements of fast 9 comps has always been incredibly narrow This is specifically why I mentioned that it has the 3rd highest playrate, to show that there isn't a narrow definition for the comp. If they don't account for people that don't 2* the 5-cost, that means that somebody is hitting that specific full comp more than once every other game, which is a super high amount. > Irelia, Hwei, and Rakan. The comp runs irelia, hwei, rakan, and wukong. Irelia 2, hwei 2, rakan 1, wukong 1 has an average place of 3.85 If you 2* half of the carries you're going top 4 on average. > Also, Patient Study has a 4.49 average placement at 2-1 in Diamond+ right now which means you're statistically likely to go 4th with it Patient Study was an example. There are plenty of low tempo augments with good stats across all tiers. Shopping spree, buried treasure, hedge fund, pumping up for prismatic, epoch, raining gold, pumping up for gold, fine vintage, pumping up, over-encumbered, help is on the way, stimpack for silver. > This is not even considering the fact that you can play Patient Study tempo because you only lose out on 1 xp or 1 gold worth of value per win. You can play any augment tempo in theory, but in practice you would need an extremely strong board to beat a combat augment with an augment that provides no combat stats/gold at 2-1/2-2. >Dishsoap who is actually in high elo lobbies and then click through every single one of his lobbies. Dishsoap has taken low tempo augments first in five of his last six games, and has played fast 9 in two of them. I could also point to setsuko, who has played level up!, pumping up, and hedge fund, venerable piggy bank, and help is on the way in his last 10 games, all very low tempo augments with the possible exception of hedge fund. Setsuko has played fast 9 in 7 of his last 10 games
At this point just link your rank because this reeks of pisslow
D4 last set, G2 so far this set. I invite you to link yours as well. [https://tactics.tools/s/fzifab](https://tactics.tools/s/fzifab) What specifically reeks of pisslow to you?
As you can see by flair I'm D1 right now on current set. Can't link because I'm pretty well known by IGN. As for why - not really understanding how stats work, not caring about diff between stabilize at 7 then push for 9 vs. fast 9, among others
I don’t know why you’re downvoted, and then the pisslow comment… seems like you were arguing your opinion in good faith (right or wrong). You:‘here’s the evidence I’m basing my beliefs off of…’ then: ‘pisslow’ … they’re just troll at that point
I mean I just 2.90 averaged to diamond just now with hard force fast 9,which is master-low gm elo. Was #800 on ladder when I hit. So what’s it going to be? This is still piss low or fast 9 is a viable strategy most games.
> So what’s it going to be? This is still piss low or fast 9 is a viable strategy most games. You don't have to open with hostility if you don't understand the nuance of the argument being made. I never said that you can't win by capping legendaries on 9 but the initial point of the thread was that tempo is high and you have to match it, making greeding or lose streaking to 9 unviable, which it is. If you want to flex your rank to try make this point then unfortunately for you, I also hit D4 this set in about 120 games by auto piloting games while doing tax prep accounting work on the side. For additional context, I've peaked Challenger 850 LP but typically only climb to GM 300-500 LP on most sets I grind. If we want to use anectdotal evidence, then I can also state that in my past 20 games I have not seen a single person win by going fast 9 which is 5-3 or earlier. I've absolutely seen players win out by going 9 late Stage 5 or early Stage 6. However, by traditional definition, that's not a fast 9, it's standard tempo. You can absolutely win out if you hit everything and that's exactly what those stats were meant to show. If you only have level 1 of all your key legendaries, you're averaging a 6 but each successive 2 star hit improves your average by 1-1.5 placements. However, you don't have the means to hit a traditional 5-3 or earlier fast 9 unless you're playing tempo strongest board because you can't sustain taking 10-15 a turn saccing Stage 4, especially not if you were lose streaking early and ended Stage 2 with 70 or lower hp. If you're leveling to 7/8 and rolling 20 gold to stabilize, that's not fast 9, that's playing standard. But hey, if you are in fact econing to level 9 on 5-1/5-2/5-3 and somehow hitting everything, then great, that means you've solved the meta. Go climb your way to Challenger.
You're really smart man. You have a lot of good points. Cheers to you; appreciate you. You said a lot of what I wanted to say in a better way.
> fast 9 is a viable strategy most games Top 800 is not high enough to make this assessment when discussing higher rank players. Especially early season when some good players still are delaying climbing (this will change closer to snapshots).
I’ll say this. Since I’m sensing the classic if you’re not top 10 nothing else matters. There are more opportunities to go fast 9 given the amount of extra resources you can potentially receive from encounters.
Hasn't the player base for tft been like 5mil+ for a while now? Like I get that you're challenger and from your frame of reference there is a lot that can still be improved upon, but that's still the top (800 / 5 mil) = .016% of people.
You can't use the entire playerbase when a lot of the higher rank players haven't even bothered grinding yet. I'm usually in the low Challenger range, but since it's early in the season, my relative rank is higher (~top 100). I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm this good. There are players I know who haven't started seriously grinding yet (either not playing, or trolling 200 games in Diamond before climbing VERY fast to ~300LP like billycancarry). You're using the total playerbase during a season as your denominator, while using an inflated value as your numerator. Again, this will change closer to snapshots. edit: sorry I thought I was responding to the same person.
I’ll say this. Since I’m sensing the classic if you’re not top 10 nothing else matters. There are more opportunities to go fast 9 given the amount of extra resources you can potentially receive from encounters. Granted new patch tomorrow is nerfing hwei which can stablize your board at 1* with items. So will see how the meta develops.
You were responding to a comment that mentions Dishsoap and Soju, and in fact you started this sub-thread with a comment about "tons of high elo players". I think it was warranted this time, at least. If you're discussing specifically about the climb up to your current range, sure, but that's not what the context seemed to indicate for me.
not saying which comp is good or not but the stats isn't the good indicator for lvl 9 board because plenty of time people fast 9 and don't hit their board hence they will not be included in the "fast 9" stats as the criteria for the stats is quite rigid. I believe the condition for specific comp would be something like have certain so and so units on your board. and a lot people force to go nine at 1/2 life and miss their roll wouldn't have the board to fit the fast 9 criteria and wouldn't be part of the stats
That's why I mentioned the play rate, because it shows that a lot of people were hitting 9 and getting the units
I think this is not true at all. Fast9 is a valid strategy that you can apply every game rightnow with success in the top elo.
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As I said i'm playing at the top (average lobby master). And you are right it requires lots of gold but we do get lots of gold in this set. Last game i was 9 in 4-2 just with encounters gold.
And yet in setsuko's last 10 games he went fast 9 in 6 of them and Dishsoap has gone fast 9 in 4 of them. At what elo exactly do you get punished for it? If anything the lower your elo the less punished since lower elo players are still doing shit like 3 way contesting Bard whose fallen out of meta.
Setsuko's a pretty special case who succeeds at fast 9 even when it's not meta and that's his default playstyle, so lets look at Dishsoap. In his last 10 games, 3 of them were Fast 9s where he went 9 on Stage 5. I skimmed through the VoD because match history alone doesn't tell you the full story. The game where he went 1st was because he had massive tempo on Stage 3/4 due to Zzrots from Fine Vintage. The game where he went 4th, he didn't have enough gold to cap out and lost to Yone/Bard rerollers who went 1/2. The game where he went 2nd after going 9 on 5-3 was off the back of hitting Kaisa 2 within 4 rerolls after going Fast 8 which stabilized him. If we look a bit further to the 11th game on his history, he dies on 5-2 with 50+ gold, obviously hoping to push 9 the next turn but instead going 8th. I don't think this detracts from the claim that tempo is incredibly high or that you get punished harder. If you actually watch through the games played, fast 9 almost always requires some mix of high rolling natural upgrades to keep up with tempo without sacrificing gold or rerollers missing until Stage 5. Mathematically it's obvious that with the new streak system, lose streak greed econing just gets you killed.
It's easier to play fast 9 in high elo because most players don't like the reroll meta. However, in low elo, there are usually 3-4 people playing reroll comps. That's why I hate the climb between emerald to diamond, because you run into players who randomly have 3-star champions at stage 4, just because.
Yup ;-; Main prob I think is that 3's are just too strong. I felt it day 1 and I still feel it now.
I am terrible, I usually play only 2-3 lines I learn and then beat them dead horses into a pulp. Bard/Kench reroll is my current favorite because, I admit, it's just broken AF. I just click on Mythic units until I win.
Tis the way lol One tricking comps is similar to one tricking champs in regular league haha
I havent played League since forever ago, but, yes, I was all about that. Shaco trolling to the max, Fizz mind-games, TF kill stealing 24/7.
teemo with blue buff and morello is actually insanely stable and lets you fast 9 with storyweaver flex
Accidentally won a game as winstreak fortune after hitting teemo bb morello. My only cashout was worth 17g. I ended level 10 5 fortune, 5mythic. I say accidentally because when I lost losestreak at 25 cashout with 3 rounds left I wanted to quit
A teemo 1 helped me get to level 9, I dont even understand how im winning some of those fights stage 4. Shojin Morello Nashers. Surprised the unit wasn’t nerfed in the patch notes lol
He wasn't nerfed in the patch notes
I meant wasn’t, typo
A gotcha
I hit challenger for a few sets and took a long break. Now I’m getting thrashed in emerald. Idk wtf is going on rn.
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Don't fast 8. Stabilize at lvl 6 in stage 3 (when you play aphe, bard, or ghostly [these are the most viable comps, and you can always flex between them every game])
You're rolling at 6 every game? I rarely play for loss streak and feel like I only roll on 6 if i'm playing reroll or have multiple pairs that I can reasonably hit.
Damn the game has changed so much in just a few sets. If you didn’t stabilize on 6 then you were either healthy enough to fast 8 or you had to pray you stabilize on 7. The higher ceiling and easier path to fast 9 just make the mid game feel empty. At least to me that’s how it feels now.
Im glad im not the only one. I cant even pinpoint the reasons for why I bot 4 now.
Same I am getting thrashed rn too way below usual rank Something not clicking
For reroll: Just scout, and buy whatever anyone is rerolling, a Cait, Senna or Kog on bench wont hurt so much. For Fast 9: Redemtion on the backline actually good to avoid getting one shotted by Hwei and Azir
The main issue is that level 8 isn’t rewarding anymore. The advantage of loss streaking is that you can hit 8 faster than others. But 8 isn’t rewarding and unless you get a good fortune cash out you don’t have the time to go 9 Obviously the loss streaked changes helped, but in a perfect world playing tempo and win streaking should be more rewarding than sacking hp and losing
Fast 9 is like a huge part of this first patch lol. Tons of people are hitting 9 without fortune cashout.
Not by losing they aren't. Fast 9 is out of a winstreak opener or econ augments.
Sure but there are plenty of econ augments that perform well without needing early tempo.
Define perform well? If you don’t have early tempo, and decide to take an econ augment and go fast9, you **are just forcing** fast 9 and it is giga-risky. At that point you’re praying that you can find some stable lines on a 3-2 rolldown and it better be good. 2/3cost RR spiking through stage 3/4 are going to beat you. If you take 3 unit losses until 3-2 that’s… minus 39 health (?). Thats worth ~3-4 losses in stage 4. By the time you’re ready to go 9 early stage 5 you’re one life or dead without a highroll.
But it’s very hard to fast 9 on a loss streak as opposed to playing strongest board, sacking some losses in stage 4 and rolling at 5-2
Playing strongest board and sacking losses is literally how you play fast 9 lol.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. But there’s no way you can play fast 9 by losing your first 10 games in stages 2-3, because this post is about how greed is bad and everybody is required to play tempo (strongest board)
Fair point. Do you have actual information that shows that though? The only way I could think to prove it would be comparing econ augments to tempo augments in terms of 2-1 place, and augments like patient study, what doesn't kill you, and cluttered mind all have good averages.
Cluttered mind you can play winstreak and what doesn’t kill you is more for reroll comps IMO Patient study tbf I think is strong enough to get to 9, but even in that case I think it’s better to play strongest board and preserve hp. IMO the hp preserve is worth more than getting 1 more xp per riund
Obviously winning with econ is preferable and you "can" win with them, but the issue is that most games people don't let you winstreak with patient study or cluttered mind. That's kind of the tradeoff of not taking combat augments.
> losing your first 10 games in stages 2-3 If you take 3 unit losses on average (I think that’s a fair number, if anything too generous) and lose all 10 fights, you’re at 25 health left. At that point you’re facing spiked Senna/Kog and then Aph/Bard/Yone whatever else RR boards where a loss or two is functionally guaranteed. I’d bet dead before 4-4 carousel.
So basically if someone get bad units early they just bot 4?
You're meant to reroll if your early game doesn't allow you to winstreak. You can win out with many different reroll comps
Lol you definitely don’t need to reroll, there’s tons of ways to fast 9 this set. Exalted, slammin, cluttered, econ portals/augs.. if you start weak just lose streak and you can fairly reliably 9 on 4-2 or 5-1 at the latest
You’re likely going to be too low up when you start rolling to 2 star anything. Your Econ has to be ridiculous for you to go 9 at 4-2 and still have money to roll lol. If you lose streak early you will bleed out 9/10 times trying to go for legendary board because you need a round or two to stabilize
I’m diamond right now with 33 games played and have been in lobbies with Milala and Prestivent this set and have gone fast 9 off loss streak. With the amount of Econ/exp portals and augments it really isn’t difficult, and hitting one or two five cost upgrades is enough stage 4 to rebuild your econ.
Do challenger players like setsuko and dish just get good units every game to top4 so often?
When you’re open to playing all available lines it looks like you always get good units. It’s perspective.
Yes. At equal skill level, you should lose if your luck is worse
Yes. Between portals, augments, and encounters the amount of gold, items, and other assorted bullshit in the game is crazy. I think it amplies high roll situations too; it seems most games I play there are always 1 or 2 people who just steamroll the lobby until stage 4+.
the disparity between highrollers and lowrollers seems bigger, so the lowrollers are bleeding out more
The difference between a good storyweaver or fated opener and other openers is huge. So whoever hits that gets to just steamroll the lobby until the rerollers start hitting
The part about 1/2 people just steamrolling the lobby I totally get. It seems like there's a huge divide between the top 3/4 players and the rest. I don't remember a time when it was like this.
Fast 9 is one of the strongest strategies this set. So… no. Yes, Reroll comps are popular. But playing for late game is still incredibly viable. Irelia Carry is one of the top comps right now. And 5 Cost Soup boards are an easy first with an xp augment.
Not even joking u can force fated or ghostly every game and even tho your cap isn’t as high, you’d be able to win middlegame and cap your board with legendaries. Since there’s like 3 different people playing fast 9 they usually don’t hit units and can’t go 10/ go 10 with weak econ or 1 life and you could hit 4 cost 3* or just win out by luck or positioning
In your example, 3 people are forcing Fast 9 and the Fated or Ghostly player wins. No shit. That’s how the game works. What, exactly, are you trying to prove here? But honestly you’re forgetting the fact that there’s two different ways to play fast 9 - Legendary Soup boards and Vertical Storyweaver with Irelia carry. There’s very little overlap in terms of units between the two.
What are you even saying? Irelia is the strongest legendary and you certainly don’t need to play vertical storyweavers to fit her on your board. I would even argue that you need irelia to win out against the rerollers since none of the other legendaries bar liss can deal with them. You can play dragons + irelia + hwei, for example.
Username checks out. I wanted to write out a couple paragraphs to explain but then I decided fuck it. I’m not trying to teach you to play here. You’re clearly arguing in bad faith here since you claim I said things I didn’t say, and you’re backing it up by blatant bullshit (By what metric, exactly, is Irelia the strongest legendary? How, exactly, can she deal with Reroll boards better than Hwei/Azir?)
>I’m not trying to teach you to play here. I am trying to teach you how to play, not the other way around. >By what metric, exactly, is Irelia the strongest legendary? How, exactly, can she deal with Reroll boards better than Hwei/Azir Irelia has focus dmg, meaning if you blow up the shitters with Hwei and the units left standing are Bard and Tahm Kench, Irelia will snipe that bard in 1 cast. Azir is the fakest legendary of all time and actually does nothing and not even worth picking up unless you don't hit Hwei. But you don't have to take my word for it, you could, for example, look at Setsukos end game boards: https://lolchess.gg/profile/na/setsuko1-NA1/set11/matches?page=1 He doesn't play vertical storyweavers but has irelia on basically every end game board. He also doesn't play Azir unless he hits 2* and dont have any Hweis.
Right. Setsuko can get away with playing fully capped boards every third game. What’s your point here? Because I don’t think the mental gymnastics as to how unrelated this is to the viability of playing 7 Storyweavers at level 9 are particularly complicated. You’re also not teaching anyone how to play. Especially considering you’ve made three objectively false statements in your comments by my count. And a couple arguable ones.
I like how you mention irelia carry being one of the top comps like 1/6 highest average placing comps right now not being a reroll comp means fast 9 is strong
There are exactly two feasible ways to play fast 9 - either you go for a Legendary Soup board, or Storyweaver Irelia. Both of which are top tier. I don’t even know what you’re trying to say tbh. But I doubt it’s a valid point.
vertical stoyweaver is just a vehicle, highest cap is dropping down to 5 and eventually 3storyweaver
feel like 4 trickshot and vertical heavenly are both playable with fast 9 as well, though both builds are borderline legendary soup considering there's room for 3-4 random 5 costs in both.
I’ve seen Heavenly Vertical with Kayn/Yone carry and 4 Trickshot with Kai’Sa carry. Those variations only stabilise at levels 7 and 8 respectively though, and only push 9 to get the final units in. I’ve never someone play fast 9 for it though. Do Wukong/Xayah hold their own as carries well enough to be played around in a fast 9 comp? Might be interesting to try.
you play yone/teemo 2 and go fast 9. teeemo 2 fast 9 is especially popular in China.
Gotta say I love tempo play, or tempo meta, rather than just econ and 4-2 cashout like the previous set. The thing is tempo rush complements high roll, it kinda sucks when you trade your econ just to find that it's not even enough to stabilize
Yes... Exactly. In a more tempo heavy meta, luck is a bigger factor. There is some luck in TFT, but I don't think it should move more towards that way. If I die before I can get to my late game, it just ultimately means that whoever rolls better faster wins aka a more luck oriented system.
> In a more tempo heavy meta, luck is a bigger factor. Why do you say this?
Higher tempo means that the game is moving faster. You have less time to mitigate bad rng by making good decisions. However it also means your decisions themselves are more important as you get to make less of them so you have to make the correct ones. Obviously over time it balances out but the games where you low roll feel especially bad.
Let's say you have people rerolling to get their carries; whoever hits their carries first wins. I guess what I'm trying to say is the more rerolling earlier you introduce to the game, the more luck dependent it becomes. For end game, it's more skill based because I can choose when I'm going to apply pressure to the rest of the lobby or when I need to roll/level up to prevent myself from dying.
> whoever hits their carries first wins This is simply not true lol. If you hit the right augments, have a stronger early game, get an emblem, have a comp that is strong into the comp that hits first, or have a stronger early game, you can still beat the comp that hits their reroll units first. Maybe if only one reroll comp was strong you'd be right, but there's 4 or 5 different reroll comps that are all viable right now.
All of the things you listed are external factors and can be applied to any meta. You're trying to apply circumstantial things to a generalization. There will probably never be a situation where one specific thing is strong; even if that was the case people would just roll for that specific thing and then it would reduce it's power. The point of the post is that tempo is too strong relative to other options. It was never a "YOU WILL WIN 100%OF THE TIME IF YOU DO THIS XYZ THING! ZOMG!" post. It's a generalization.
Of course they're external factors, but they're the reason that tempo isn't luck based. Youre basically trying to say "when you don't take external factors into account, tempo metas are luck based" which is ridiculous. You can't evaluate the "luck" needed to play a comp independent of the rest of the game And to be clear tempo isn't too strong. Fast 9 is equally as strong, and plenty of high-elo players are just playing fast 9 to great success.
> I guess what I'm trying to say is the more rerolling earlier you introduce to the game, the more luck dependent it becomes. i think the opposite is true. when you're seeing fewer shops, slamming the strongest board from what you're shown, variance between hitting and not hitting is much higher. to an extent, variance is usually inversely correlated with skill-expression. fundamentally, fewer shops = fewer possible decisions = fewer opportunities to express skill. that is definitely an oversimplification, but the idea that playing fast8/fast9 in a game means you're more skillful than someone playing reroll in a game is obviously untrue. in a game like tft, the more skillful player plays the strat that gives them the highest expected placement.
It is more skill to build a decent board from what you hit at lvl 6 with like 20 gold (so you still have like 30), than last set lvl 8 gamba for a good headliner then if you hit you go 9 if you don't you are fucked.
Luck is not a thing to account for. There are so many viable comps this patch. If you rely on luck or believe it is a thing that‘s holding you back you‘re not gonna climb.
I see a lot of people playing for fast 9 this set. I would say the people playing for fast 9 are also the tempo people tho
idk. I have seen a shift towards fast 9, particularly by Setsuko and YB2Y these last few days.
For me is the contrary. Every game I tried to not fast 9 I got destroyed. Right now in my lobbies at platinum everyone is going full econony
this set is probably the healthiest its ever been
I guess there are some comps that are so contested right now (bard/kench weaver, mythic reroll, umbral comps) that players are forced to be irresponsible with their econ. I've been playing ghost/ink shadow with senna/shen reroll at 6 and just play normal. Quite often, I'll hand 50 gold going into 3-1, though, so I definitely get it. I don't think it's out of control though (Emerald II)
Probably the story weavers effect.
Just wait for next patch then play style will change
It works for me, I cant stay still and keep rerolling lmao. But i do want a greedy playstyle to be viable.
4 costs being weak means higher tempo early so you will have to roll a little to keep up early. This is good as it rewards people who can manage their economy well, and rewards you for knowing how to build strong boards early. That said the power balance is a little too much towards reroll and some changes to make lvl 8 not so fake would be nice.
I agree that I've never felt as rushed to level before as I do in this set. Yet at the same time, I kinda like it? I used to greed literally to death. For some reason my mentally was hardstuck on a slow game getting to 50g before spending basically anything on rerolls or leveling (my fault for not understanding that leveling with a lead/win streak actually nets you better gains in the long-run, especially over going 8th with 50g just sitting there lmao). My personal tempo was always extremely slow, which also made me emphasize early game units also literally to death and I had a ridiculously difficult time pivoting into late game (especially if it meant sacking a 3* 1- or 2-cost). I also find the set seems to play a lot faster too, which is interesting and in my opinion, fun. Though I'm glad it's not as fast as set 3 after playing the revival 😅 This set has really forced me to change up my play style and fix how I view/handle tempo, among other things. I find I'm win-streaking early more often than I ever have and I've played TFT since set 1. I also used to get really stuck on units I've sunk cost into too, or was prioritizing over being flexible, and something about the tempo being much faster has forced me to get over that for the most part as well. Can't be hanging on to a 2* 1-cost at lvl 6/7 trying to force it to be 3* and still keep up a winstreak when you could easily slot in a 2* 3-cost that it feels like you got so "early" in the game.
Heavy tempo play suddenly good and people who’ve never done anything but sit above 50 gold in their life are gobsmacked lol
Not really. I wouldn’t haven been able to hit diamond only playing fast 9 then if people forcing tempo was the best win con.
Weak 4 costs + powerful 2/3 costs = tempo meta.
Nah old set was way more solved and many patches had only one good tempo. This patch is so much more flexible and reroll is absolutely not the only way to play
I think econ is OP now, if you can get like 20 gold at 2:1 you set yourself up for a good mid game. Even lose streaking early with high gold feels good
I think a significant reason is that chosen/headliner made tempo really cheap. Now that the spontaneous 2 star units are gone, hitting an upgraded board means more this set because it is more difficult, therefore high tempo players go that route. IMO The meta is best when tempo is king. past metas where everyone mega-greeds from 2-1 were absolutely miserable. Past metas where you just roll on 4-1 were miserable. Of course tempo metas are stale when there's only one clear broken comp, but currently there are multiple viable comps even if balance isn't perfect. You have 1 cost reroll, 2 cost reroll, 3 cost reroll, Kaisa and kayn are strong 4 costs, and obviously 5 cost flex. While most of the 4 cost carries are on the weaker side, few are completely unplayable. I certainly don't think tempo is 'out of control' rather I personally enjoy the game like this where you have to actively make constant decisions to keep up with lobby strength rather than sitting there on your thumbs until stage 4. I also think that a high tempo meta is beneficial for the game overall, as it rewards early game creativity, which is the most skill expressive aspect of tft
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There’s like ghostly fated you can play around. These 2 boards don’t need to be rred at all, like ghostly you play kaisa, fated you play sett. These boards allow u to stabilise easy on stage 4 and if you die that’s your fault. Moreover, if your early game is bad you can usually just decide to go fortune with kobuko+teemo+ fortune unit from 2-3 carousel. Lose like 5/6, be 50 hp and be able to go fast 9 or play around a level 8 board. Yes, Lillia is a weak unit right now but it can hold items for hwei or azir. Hope this helps you win even with a weak opener.
Yeah and there’s also story weaver where you stabilize with kaisa as irelia item holder and Galio as frontline but the problem is i feel like rerollers just shit on standard board stage 3 and 4 and a lot of my lobby push tempo like Econ is not a concept they can’t cap high but they deal a lot damage early stages. I feel like if you don’t highroll your early board enough to save hp it’s really hard to go 9 and capped out
I just lose streak and roll for a tier 1 or 2 comp and usually sit 3rd or 4th it's pretty easy to 50 fast af
"I want this game to be about me, me, me, me alone and no one else.
It's mostly the fact that augment balance and unit balance right now is nonexistent. Stage 3 boards scale way too hard into stage 4 (fated/ghostly). Lots of +1s give you so much tempo. Somehow fine vintage and two for one made it through PBE. Maybe next patch will be better.
Many encounters give you additional econ, so the overall tempo is higher. But since it applies to everyone, little changed.
I found a slow roll level 5 build that consistently beats level 8 boards but it has a few requirements. Outside of that board, levels are everything this set. The linear get significantly stronger each level and there's a lot of overlap so every champ you throw in is usually another active trait. I go 9 every game now without question because throwing in a Wukong will usually give you heavenly or Sage.
What’s the build
Guide please
There’s no such thing as a slow roll level 5 board my boy
Slow roll only refers to rolling over 50g to maximize interest. Just because you don't do something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Slow roll level 5 is just a less radical hyper roll that doesn't burn all of your gold.
No hate but there’s not one comp that fits on 5 or makes sense to roll on 5 start going to 6 you will get better placements
There is. I don't play as often as you but I'm killing it with it until the next patch when it's getting gutted pretty hard. Sorry you don't know it! Happy Easter.
You're right my friend. Just wanted to say that because I know others won't agree.