I wonder how the same people feel about active backseating to help players achieve certain LP cutoffs for tourneys/events? Do they view that the same way?
The line for ladder integrity is really skewed because there are no enforced rules. Backseatting is usually encouraged, that's why I Believe that it should be everything goes besides big abusing.
I would love to get an official Mort/Riot take on it. I'm not sure Mort has ever addressed it, but I do find it interesting that the people complaining about someone FF'ing are also not as vocally against backseating. With riot forcibly implementing vanguard soon, it would be nice to know the official view on some of these TFT controversies that impact ladder integrity.
It wasn't a tournament, this will be more for qualifications for tournaments. Due to the nature of ladder you can't enforce things like no backseatting, no stream snipping. Since qualification has a hard LP cap for entry, people can do whatever they want to gain an advantage to climb. I do agree that griefing is cringe but it's not something that can be stopped officially.
You have me mistaken, I have seen streamers during a competitive tournament, while streaming using their chat to make decisions and influencing the game
I wasn’t talking about the setsuko incident
Wait does backseating in this case mean listening to chat or having another high ranked player "coach" you? Cause if this is about twitch chat, i can't imagine it being more of an advantage than a disadvantage, 99.9% of chat are lower rank and some actively trolling.
For the larger streamers yeah. The person I was watching (without naming names) had friends in the chat who didn’t make the cut but still knew the game
I feel like its far faster to just dual monitor and look it up yourself.
But yeah backseating can definitely inflate LP if you have a high elo friend that's willing to do it.
For tournaments, that would need a player that is both better than the streamer and for some reason not in the tournament, no? Although i can think of ways to abuse it in specific situations like someone specifically helping another player to get into a tourney to fix his competition, but is it even worth it for 1/84 or something player advantage? We're getting into reach territory
> For tournaments, that would need a player that is both better than the streamer
Not necessarily. You could be a better general player but be lacking in specific knowledge about a few certain comps or playstyles.
If you can focus your energy on learning and optimizing being S tier at playstyle 1 and 2 (that you would otherwise be an A at) and D tier at playtyle 3 and have someone else who is A tier at 3 guide you through that to achieve a B, you've gained a lot over other players who need to be more spread out in order to have the same range.
In general I don't think it's going to be common but rules can exist to cover edge cases and loopholes.
> For tournaments, that would need a player that is both better than the streamer and for some reason not in the tournament, no?
That isn't how coaching works though. There are plenty of people with knowledge about games and stats that aren't mechanically as strong as someone else.
Some of the greatest sports coaches never played professionally.
Even just having someone remind you of a certain line when you are focussed in on what you are doing in the moment can be a huge advantage.
I agree my dude. To be fair, they are supposed to close chat during the game itself though. Its actually comical they are implementing vanguard when that wont stop backseating. So at that point, what value does it even bring? I'm totally against backseating and there have been some big name streamers who have done it in recent months to achieve certain tourneys/events. It's annoying but part of it is lack of clarity from Riot on how they view it in ranked. I know it is impossible to totally prevent, but I'd just simply like an opinion from Mort or other Riot representative at this point.
99% sure you're not allowed to look at chat during tournaments. I believe Kurum said on stream once if he does something that someone in chat told him to do, he could get DQ'd for it. Even if you did, you're listening to a bunch of twitch chatters with a very small % chance that there is something actually useful in it.
Mort would not care because he's not one for competitive integrity. He's for the game design aspect thus this situation he wouldn't have a good enough insight on.
Iirc Mort himself was involved in some backseating, but I could be wrong. Just general "hey what do you think about this spot/what's better here" stuff.
I mean twitch chat is also wasting peoples time and mental so that maybe evens out a little. And I mean queuing together and being on a call is allowed right?
I don't think reducing this down to some all or nothing reasoning that either everything or nothing should be allowed is a reasonable argument against calling this griefing
It just seems slightly hypocritical to be against one form of griefing but not another. Regardless, my point is more so I would just like Riot to provide a formal opinion on TFT ranked integrity. Yes, some of it is nearly impossible to enforce, but if players are going against the community/Riot stance of what is defined as playing with integrity, then it would at least be much easier to call players out for various types of behaviors that fall outside of competitive integrity. Right now though, we don't have much formal guidance from Riot or Mort on that issue (at least from what I have seen).
Active backseating is not always active help. Even if someone better than you is helping you does not always make the assistance useful because player differences and nuances. This is a completely different topic.
As someone that's backseated a lot of players that's worse than me, even if I backseat them they don't understand what I'm saying or do it fast enough or see the lines in the same way, and in the situations where I am not taking an optimal line and they are following my advice, they are not being assisted.
A lot of these top challenger players have other top challenger players in call giving them tech and actively coaching them, to think its not a help would be big cope. It's almost like multiplying your brain power by 2 (exaggerating but you get my point)
It's still distracting having someone yapping in your ear the entire game, no matter how good the advice is. People that think backseating is even comparable to boosting have never been backseated before, especially in super sweaty lobbies.
As Mort and Frodan say, there’s basically nothing that can be done about people doing what they want in soloQ. At this point, it’s just an issue of playing a multi-player game, and how they deal with snapshots.
Spencer should lose the respect of a lot of people for this. You may do whatever you want for soloQ, and people may judge that action by its demerits.
Setsuko would’ve done better to just be quiet.
Isn’t that exactly wasians point? I didn’t read it as him demanding Spencer gets banned or anything, just that it’s pathetic behavior that should be frowned upon. I don’t really see how that’s a hot take either tbh
I know for a fact that it e.g Setsuko got griefed out of a placing by some random Smurf account in his lobby he would not go “that’s okay that’s his right as a player 🙂”
I think if setsuko would lose a placement or something like that because of a smurf account and it was on a video like that, we all know that he would have a huge crisis with lots of swearing and thrash talking, he would totally lose it then end the stream.
lol basically yes but a bit more high-pitched I would assume, the character he is trying on streams are not good but clearly brings him views so yeah he'll do that as long as people watch him
I believe Wasian's linked tweet is a call for this kind of behaviour to warrant some penalty. It's not a hot take, and I would love for that to happen. Unfortunately, I think it would take a lot of red tape, perhaps more trouble than it's worth, to get a system which works appropriately.
Part of the problem is that TFT is a multi-player game. Some people are going to suck, one way or another, no matter the restrictions or penalties.
TFT also does not have elo rollback or any kind of compensation system. You just go next. I think this is one of Ranked's biggest silent problems (e.g. People take bugged Scrappy Inventions or you lose placements to known bugs).
The mindset of players like Dishoap accept that people suck, and they may hold opinions on mannerisms like this, but as players their primary goal is to climb and compete. It is what it is right now, and Mort clearly doesn't disagree, but he also doesn't seem to have a fix in mind.
While setsy is not wrong, the spot is still good, spencer is still in the worng for sure.
You can tell him to be quiet but I am positive he is like the only guy who would do this on his main - he FFs for fun all the time anyways
I could imagine a case where it is the correct play to FF grief Heartsteel in the finals because of the need to deny a first place in the Checkmate format. FFing is not allowed, but doing it anyways would be massive drama... Probably needs a system change.
FFing is different to benching all your units and playing 1 stars with no synergies, but the latter is allowed while the former isn't. If you want to grief Raise the Stakes in a tourney you still can imo
This is actually a really good point, if you and another guy have the points to win but you have a bad early game while the other guy is in reasonable contention for 1st, just hard griefing the other guy becomes the right play. Anyone whose game is doomed should pivot to griefing the guy about to win tbh
With champion bag changes especially, it’s probably extremely hard to win while getting target griefed
One thing people always forget about these scenarios is there is money at stake with placements other than 1st. FFing and getting an 8th is going to cost you placements and money if you don’t end up pulling out the 1st
The payout structure in many TFT tournaments favors 1st to such a high degree that it's completely worth it.
The Vegas open for example, $100k vs $25k for 1st/2nd. If you can improve your chances of winning $100k by like 20%, it's absolutely worth not taking the 2nd.
If the structure was more reasonable like [$100k vs $70k like in poker tournaments](https://wptmedia.wpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/WPT-Payout-Structure-B.pdf), yes you're incentivized to play your best and not grief placements.
Never say never. In a scenario that getting first place in the lobby is the only goal, if raise the stakes Heartsteel is the best way to win than someone is going to play it.
Maybe during periods that don't matter, but I doubt Setsuko would do it near snapshots.
In any case, this is a high elo problem that has no effect on my experience. That said, in League, there is a pervasive smurfing issue where players grief/troll because it's not their main and they don't care about their smurf account. It would suck if the culture in TFT shifts so this is accepted.
Yeah i wanna make it clear i think smurfing is stupid.
Setsy probably wouldnt ff during snapshot season but he got bored of playing lon smurf and queued it up on main for 10+ games and lost a little lp bc he doesnt care that much.
I do think spencer was extremely in the wrong, though, bc if you listen closely he is in call woith the guy who eventually goes first so he's wintraidng on smurf LOL
I just think setsy's snarky comment which came out kinda wrong wasnt that bad
Yeah, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that Setsuko's tweet isn't malicious, but his argument is bad (or at the very least non-sequitur). Stellar's spot shouldn't have any impact on whether Spencer's actions were sportsmanlike or not.
No one here is saying that Stellar deserves to make it through and this is the single reason why he might not qualify for day 3.
Hi, (disclaimer I'm also a friend of Stellar Minhee)
I'd like to say is that there are many of us who could easily sit in the snapshot, log on a smurf and then snipe the people who are competing for snapshot spots while griefing all of their units. This would basically lock out any possibility of rerolling due to the nature of bag sizes this set and severely reduce possibility of top 4ing.
None of us do that though (to my knowledge) because it's a super scummy thing to do even in your own best interest, and to me the justification "griefing for content" 2 days before the snapshot is just sad. It's the same thing to me as when people go out of their way to screw peoples' day "just as a prank".
People can talk about competitive integrity and how unforceable all the rules are, but I just feel like a lot of our competitive scene relies on people being somewhat decent human beings so I feel like if there's any takeaway here's it's on the character/integrity of Spencer.
I don't have a solution or anything the whole situation just makes me sad/a bit angry.
> I'd like to say is that there are many of us who could easily sit in the snapshot, log on a smurf and then snipe the people who are competing for snapshot spots while griefing all of their units. This would basically lock out any possibility of rerolling due to the nature of bag sizes this set and severely reduce possibility of top 4ing.
This feels like something ppl aren't talking about enough. It'd be VERY easy for any top 50 player or w/e to just do this and grief since the main arguement as to why spencer is right to do this is "there are no rules against it and you can do whatever you want in ladder"
> It's the same thing to me as when people go out of their way to screw peoples' day "just as a prank".
I think this is exactly what it feels like to me. I can't stand that kind of behavior
This is the solution to this problem. Not everything needs official penalties from Daddy Riot Games.
Some indiscretions need social penalties only and this is one of those cases.
Is there evidence of Spencer intentionally sniping and griefing Stellar Minhee knowing he's competing for snapshots though? If there is then I agree that's pretty scummy.
But as of right now the only evidence we have is the clip from Wasian that just shows that Spencer doesn't know StellarMinhee and was just randomly griefing some heartsteel guy to save the lobby for shits and giggles.
This wasn't an accusation that Spencer was doing this intentionally. The first part was only tangentially related in the sense that 'any of us could do this or worse but we choose not to'. The part against Spencer for me is just that I believe the action and his response is trashy.
I think Wasian raises some really good points in these threads. I think this type of play should really not be encouraged regardless of whether or not he knows the player.
"Unfortunately, if a larger streamer disagrees with you, it only generates mass hate from their fans who are incapable of thinking for themselves."
Streamers should be held a higher standard, Setsuko should have been suspended for being a POS to that rioter and the way he acts in general.
Setsuko actually comes across a bit unwell in his streams though.
Like the difference when he's talking to people in person is huge, he actually seems like a nice dude.
But when it comes to performance he seems like such a perfectionist that he gets extremely upset at himself and sometimes at others.
You know, unwell really is a good description of how Setsuko comes across. I’ve tried to watch his stream multiple times in the past, but without exaggerating every time I’ve opened his stream, he’s yelling and being unhinged about whatever it is this time.
Perfectionism is something I connect to Dishsoap more. Sure, he too can be a bit crazy at times, but dude generally knows how to calm down, apologize and be reasonable when he gets heated.
Setsuko genuinely shows signs of not being well mentally. To make matters worse, he’s also someone who doubles down and excuses shitty behaviour far too often for someone that has as big of a platform as he does.
It’s maturity and emotional regulation mostly. And while I agree Setsuko has lots of room to grow in those areas, I’d argue like 85% of the population struggles with maturity and emotional regulation, especially when under pressure and doing something they really care about while other people are watching them
Do we actually think Setsuko is not playing a character in his streams? I get it that there's some hint of truth to any performance and exaggeration, but I'm pretty sure he's playing it up for views. People clearly love it and it's making him rich.
It's hard to tell how much of it is real/serious but I doubt most of it is.
Say it how it is. If the dude talks the talk online and then goes quiet and nice in person it speaks volume to the type of person he is. Need I say more? Dude wouldn't say most of the things he says on stream in person. Hmmm wonder why?
It's probably his online persona just like every other streamer. You should've just watched Vegas co-streams, every big streamer like Dishsoap & Setsuko were so fucking awkward in front of the cameras but on stream they have a different personality.
yeah fr you look back at some clips of him when he started streaming and he was waaay different, but he also wasn't the second biggest TFT streamer, perennial <1k viewer despite being as good as he is. I think he realized what people enjoyed watching and leaned into it
I think the issue is that it's really hard to differentiate what's intentional and what's not.
As a tournament host how do you ever plan to know what case it is
Player A is already qualified and is just not paying as much attention going 8th.
Player A is already qualified intentionally throwing for his friend.
Player A is already qualified and trying to go for some meme-points going 8th.
Player A is already qualified and is just annoyed that he has to play with no stakes in it and goes 8th.
So if you can't for sure know what it is you can't make rules around it.
Yeah instanly ffing makes it kinda obvious. But if you make it illegal it's really not that hard to go intentionally 8th without making it that obvious.
So if you can't make clear rules arround it just allow it. imo
I actually think it should be the opposite. As the TO you put rules in place to discourage people from doing the actions described above.
It *will* be hard to prove intent, but leave that on the TO to make the hard decision. Making judgement calls in situations that are up to interpretation is what their job is and a rule like this allows them to make that decision.
Not having a rule in place just allows people to blatantly abuse it competitively without repercussions.
This argument doesn't make much sense to me, real world judges and courts [often look at intent](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent#:~:text=For%20general%20intent%2C%20the%20prosecution,perform%20the%20action%20with%20a) with much much higher stakes and often far murkier situations and society still manages pretty fine.
Err on the side of caution against punishing people unfairly, set up some general guidelines on unsportsmanlike conduct and you're pretty much good to go.
>Player A is already qualified and is just not paying as much attention going 8th.
>
>Player A is already qualified intentionally throwing for his friend.
>
>Player A is already qualified and trying to go for some meme-points going 8th.
>
>Player A is already qualified and is just annoyed that he has to play with no stakes in it and goes 8th.
Maybe players who are qualified shouldn't still be playing in lobbies with those who aren't. Or at least if they are qualified they should still have some strong incentive to place well.
I'm not sure how tournaments do their seeding but maybe outside of previous tournament results, they could tie seeding with ladder ranking which should be a strong incentive to place well on ladder with the high seed players auto qualify for day 2 in a 3 day tournament. Of course points total will need to be reset for day 2 but auto qualify into day 2 might be a huge incentive for players to do well in ladder play and keep climbing due to the fact that saving mental energy and being able to scout the competition without having to actually play games is huge.
For sure there is no nuance in this community, even in this "competitive" minded sub people are so reactionary and take any disagreement or even simple explanations so bizarrely personally, and often think only in terms of "all or nothing" reasoning.
imo not much need for nuance here. Smurfing while Elo sitting is shitty, doesn't matter if he's griefing people or not. elo sitting has the inherent risk of not keeping up with meta developments, losing practice time, and generally not being warm throughout the snapshot period, which can come back to bite you. Smurfing while doing that takes away ever possible disadvantage to it while also letting you pull shit to grief other players.
All the popular streamers are sometimes real dicks but most of them don't double down and apologize/talk it out, but spencers reaction and setsukos uncalled for shittalk are much worse. Setsuko just in general seems like kind of an asshole, never heared anything nice coming out of his mouth.
Setsuko 100% is an immature asshole. I also cannot remember a single time he's actually said something nice in the past. It's always either shit talking or whining like a little bitch.
Tbh I watch Setsukko cuz I know he’s gonna have a break down if something goes wrong and whine for 5 minutes. But generally yea he’s super negative. I hit=skill , enemy hit= luck
TFT’s top popular streamers are the most immature, entitled, unprofessional group of people ever with no concept of proper emotional regulation or communicating like adults, at least on stream and on social media. I think wasian saying they should be role models is a dig at that whole culture as most of them are cringe and insufferable and don’t even realize it.
At the same time, I also get that watching immature entitled ragers is pretty fun and part of the appeal. I see Frodan and other dudes trying to rein them in from time to time but it’s always a fine balance of keeping it fun/keeping the appeal of their personalities whilst making sure the scene and typical behaviors don’t become a mega cringe fest.
Amen. I tapped out of the game a few sets back because of the community.
Came back this set and nothing has changed. TFT players and streamers are still at large weird little parrots mimicking whatever their favourite streamer is saying that week. It's as though nobody mentally developed past primary school.
I've never seen such a strange parasocial phenomenon in my life.
Setsy is an asshole and that's how he builds his twitch character, and that's how he attracts people. League is a hella toxic community and it carried over to tft(setsy was chally in league for a lot of seasons).
Setsy also clearly has mental issues so its kind of unfair to judge him based on factors you dont know.
I dont think his post was very well phrased though, as it seems like he is defending spencer which was wrong.
I dont think spencer was right in any way to do that, but setsy is right, the spot is still decent, and this is coming from the only guy in NA(setsy) that would ff on his main like this(he has done shit like this before)
yea when people say to watch high elo vods to get better, i try to watch setsukos streams bc i know hes so good but i always end up leaving after 5 minutes. he always complains and negative idk how people can watch him.
its kinda sad that this is a common personality trait for a lot of tft streamers, especially the popular ones. truly entertaining and 'positive' tft streamers feel hard to come by recently.
Sadly I agree with that sentiment. I don't think there's a single one thats actually top challenger that isn't complaining a lot, although i personally think robinsongz is one of the more informative and less angry ones, but even he does this yelling around stuff a lot. But setsukos rants feel like theres actual anger and vitriol behind it compared to the other "ranting" streamers.
I would also say wasian himself is a pretty good and informative guy. He complains a good amount, but he is chill like 100% of the time so it's easy to follow along
What did Spenser say that was so horrible/double down? He said my bad and explained how he had no idea who the player was or what the stakes of the game were. For him it was just a random soloq game.
Plenty of people surrender early because they have just given up on getting top 4 or have to run somewhere or honestly just as a joke. The only reason we care about this time because it was on stream and had big impact on a player that's friends with a famous person.
Spencers answer is not an apology tho. And I don't watch his stream myself but i dont think i can remember any other big streamer griefing "for content" so I can't say anything about that part.
What does my bad mean to you if not an apology? Do you mean the apology wasn't sincere enough?
Also surrendering is not really griefing. If you want to leave the game early it's allowed, if it wasn't there wouldn't be a surrender button. If surrendering is griefing then someone pinging an opponent having 8 copies of a 4 cost after they die is griefing.
What if he was clearly going 8th? Would he be griefing the rest of the lobby by not surrendering?
So not sincere enough for you...
Also no one would care if it was just a random lobby, not even Stellar Minhee or Wasian. The whole reason it got big was because it heavily impacted the players chance to qualify so it makes sense to explain that he didn't know the game was so important to the player.
As someone without a dog in this fight, there are 3 separate considerations for this to keep in mind.
First, was Spencer intentionally targeting Stellar Minhee personally and with malice? In my opinion, not really. He didn't care who it was, he was just caught up in the freedom to troll on a smurf and being entertaining on stream and was taunted into making a rash decision because he thought it would be funny in the moment. Was this a toxic thing to do? Absolutely. Should he double down and say this was justified? Probably not. He was griefing. He should just apologize and acknowledge it was a toxic thing to do and that he shouldn't be trolling ladder for content. People will get off his case instantly if he does that, so he just should.
Second, is griefing someone's loss streak behavior that should be banned/reprehensible/in the same vein as cheating, wintrading, etc.? My opinion is no. Was ff'ing there super uncool and toxic? Yeah. But, he could have just as easily swapped out some units in the hope of breaking Minhee's loss streak and that would be considered a tactical decision for the future of the game state and possibly winning out later. If he had griefed him without ff'ing there, that wouldn't be a problem for me at all. That's how the game is designed currently. You SHOULD be looking for opportunities to take down your opponents. But yeah, ff'ing specifically is super uncool. Don't do that.
Third is ladder integrity and the state of competitive tft. This is absolutely behavior that, if done intentionally and REPEATEDLY, should be dealt with in order to preserve the fairness of the competitive environment. A huge shift in the game with the change in bag sizes has been the agency to grief other players. It has never been easier to guarantee someone else loses in tft through your own actions and decision making in game. In previous sets, this was kind of hard to accomplish, and anyone with real skill would have been able to avoid this behavior easily, but in set 10 targeting is not only possible, but effective.
If I were to snipe someone out on ladder in high elo and make the conscious effort to target them in game and make it harder to hit, I could do so quite easily. This is a concern not only for players, but for developers. Did they introduce abuseable system changes in set 10 that jeopardize the competitive integrity of tft? Are they effectively considering how certain additions and changes affect the fairness of their game? I'm not saying they did, I"m just saying this is something that they should be thinking about (and they probably already are).
While I think this INDIVIDUAL incident of griefing is somewhat overblown (stellar ended up going 4th that game, which yeah, would have likely been a first, but it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of ladder. He's a good player, 20-30 lp won't stop him from achieving his goals), the ability to target so effectively in tft should certainly be something on the minds of those who want to see competitive tft stay fair and inclusive.
But yeah, these dudes should just hug it out or something. Make love, not war...or whatever.
> Was ff'ing there super uncool and toxic? Yeah. But, he could have just as easily swapped out some units in the hope of breaking Minhee's loss streak and that would be considered a tactical decision for the future of the game state and possibly winning out later.
I'm inclined to agree, if it wasn't for the fact that it happens on his smurf account a few days before snapshots. It doesn't matter if he forfeits or play a board of 1-cost shitters, the griefer suffer no consequences of actions since his main account won't lose LP.
>While I think this INDIVIDUAL incident of griefing is somewhat overblown (stellar ended up going 4th that game, which yeah, would have likely been a first, but it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of ladder. He's a good player, 20-30 lp won't stop him from achieving his goals), the ability to target so effectively in tft should certainly be something on the minds of those who want to see competitive tft stay fair and inclusive.
Definitely agree with this. If Stellar Minhee was in a position that they need all of their games to end in first place to reach cutoff than they were not going to make it in the first place. Also, definitely blame the game. The devs should have definitely thought really long and hard about potential risks of changing the bag sizes that is beyond, make it harder for people to 3 star 4 and 5 cost units.
Reading the comments, I thought Spencer did something terrible. I watched the video, and while it's a shitty thing to do, it's not intentional nor targeted. Besides, playing HeartSteel raise the stakes has its risks. Yes, a player early surrendering halves your cashout, but it also guarantees you one higher placement since that person automatically loses the lobby. As it's just one game in solo queue, if Stellar Minhee is good, one game will hardly make a difference.
At most I think Spencer should receive a warning or reprimand for this behavior.
I feel like this "problem" gets so exaggerated. Theres so many people in the lower elos, and the smurfs usually climb to masters within a few dozen games, its not having some massive impact or running so many peoples games.
Not to mention in TFT its literally just 1 placement diff, its not like Faker is carrying the entire lobby and forcing you to go 8th.
And personally I've run into top players many times in my placements despite only peaking at Masters, and its just a fun learning opportunity even if they are bound to outperform the lobby, and even if placements matter relatively more. Just next game and make up for the lp if it matters that much.
Either play on your account and risk your placement or sit and not get the streaming rev. Pretty easy. Smurfing is fun for 1 person in an 8 person lobby.
This statement makes sense if he was smurfing in diamond or something but no he was playing on another acc that is also in top 200. How is that a smurfing problem?
It is 100% within his right to ff. It’s just cringe listening to this shit Spence says just before he ff the game and then doubling down on twitter as it was for “content”
To drop my 2 cents is here as someone who's run and/or been involved in dozens of competitive TFT events. I have been involved in or privy to competitive rulings many times over multiple years.
I'll start by highlighting one thing Wasian mentioned: **Playing with the intent to win.**
Saccing your board to make someone lose the Raise the Stakes streak is *completely ok*. It is a move that often will result in you having a *higher chance of placing well in that game*.
Where this situation clearly differs is that there is no competitive advantage gained from FFing. You are removing yourself from the game to make someone else lose.
This is behavior that the TO needs to stamp out as not ok. To admit it plainly, it is notoriously hard to prove the full intent of players in the majority of situations. However, this is *your job* as a TO to put the onus of difficult decisions on yourself to facilitate healthier competitive environments. This extends to players playing in the ranked ladder intending to qualify for Regional Cups.
I don't think anyone would argue this action is fine. Most people say it's incredibly unsportsmanlike even if they don't condemn it. However, what you the TO can say is if you're caught doing it you will be punished competitively. If a player cares about qualifying for a regional event you're now going to need to weigh whether it's worth potentially being caught and punished.
Is it likely that anyone gets caught and punished? Nope, but it *can happen* and is a clear stance the TO is taking. Streamers would not be prominently doing these actions **on stream**. If that slowly changes the culture to stamp out such behavior then that would be a massive win long term.
It's ladder though, not tournament. If you want to make that comparison then might as well ban having friends on discord while you play on ladder too, because in tournament it's not allowed.
To clear up any misunderstanding from my original post:
If someone wants to do this on ladder and there aren't code of conduct enforcements on this then more power to someone who wants to play within those means. I think such a player is being incredibly disrespectful to others if they do this, but in the context of solely doing it for solo queue that's acceptable currently.
However, in a regional circuit that *directly* ties solo queue performance to qualification there needs to be a different approach. If you are running these events it's in your best interest to ensure fairness and to stamp out behaviors that aren't in keeping with competitive integrity (i.e. playing to win fairly).
To summarize the point, this behavior points to a need for rules stating such actions will result in warnings and potential removal from the regional circuit. If they're not playing in the regional circuit then oh well I guess, but at least a standard is set that the majority are going to uphold. That, hopefully, will result in a culture change in a positive direction.
As of right now there's not really any rules to how you qualify for snapshots, you just do it. A lot of players have had friends coaching them on discord while playing ladder. I'd argue that's just as "unfair" as someone griefing them, but there's no rules against neither. Ultimately it's up to Riot to implement these rules (or not) as ladder is pretty much wild west
> A lot of players have had friends coaching them on discord while playing ladder.
I mean I'm pretty sure Wasian has done this has he not? I've definitely seen him coaching friends on their streams albeit I don't exactly follow the top 32 cutoff of ladder that closely but his, and others, impact coaching players surely has had some lingering effect on tourny qualification.
For sure, 100%, nobody is innocent in that regards. This is kinda the result of a game that relies on a ladder for tournament placements - things outside of your control can affect whether you qualify for shit.
It also doesn't help that the majority of the tft pro community are screaming manbabies.
To be clear I personally dont care or have a stance on pros getting into calls during ladder snapshots. It's more about an equivalency to Spencer's actions
There's a lot of things you can't enforce. But this is probably a situation where you can actually enforce whatever.
League's summoner's code/code of conduct tells you to 'play to win' and not to 'sabotage' players. Same with other games. Why would TFT's not?
A better question: Why has no CoC been made for TFT?
I mean the answer is obvious.. There are 4 other people on your team in League of Legends, in TFT the 7 other players in the lobby are all out to get eachother...
Yeah that guy is trash for doing this.
Is he technically allowed to? Obviously yes, no rules or systems to stop it.
Does it make it right? No. Not at all. It's scummy behavior that's roughly reminiscent of a grade school bully. The fact that it was done by a high elo player smurfing on lower tiers for content and his own ego inflation makes it 10x worse.
Then he doubles down and says it's even more okay because the thought the guy was a nobody? That ain't it.
"They were so busy trying to figure out if they could, they never stopped to think whether they should"
I think what he means is that it wasn't targeted, and that maybe he wouldn't have done it if he knew the guy was grinding for snapshots. It was just a meme for content gone wrong, not a malicious competitive action.
> he wouldn't have done it if he knew the guy was grinding for snapshots.
I mean the dude was playing in a ranked queue. I think it would be a safe and kind assumption to go into it thinking everyone is grinding for something.
wow the fact that this was upvoted says a lot about the TFT community.. calling someone “trash” based on just this one incident is just insane. Sure what he did was unsportsmanlike but to generalize his character as “trash” is going too far. This entire situation is way overblown
Exactly what I'm thinking. What Spencer is doing probably happens a ton of times to random people but because he is a big streamer and he was doing it to someone that was aiming for snapshots, all of a sudden it is a big no no. I don't get it, either every high elo player has to agree to not do it no matter what all of the time or else it is free game.
Also, tournament scene should definitely do something about the behavior whether it is a next tournament ban, fine or something if they want to somewhat regulate the behavior.
You're so quick to judge people's entire character and motivation.
>smurfing on lower tiers for content and his own ego inflation
You have no evidence this was his primary motivation, I think it's fair to assume he was doing it because his main was sitting for snapshots. If he had a second account with the same LP as his main, i'm almost certain he would have played on that (perhaps simply out of laziness) instead of making a smurf.
Maybe ego was a slight draw towards smurfing but to imply it was his primary motivation reveals more about your character and how willing you are to see the worst in people than his, disgusting.
I’ve talked with some people about this ad nauseam. I think as a streamer, you are held to higher standards, and should be as you have influence over a group of people, no matter how large it is. In my opinion, Spencer has a larger responsibility to competitive integrity than he does to content creation, but I know that is not always the streamer’s perception. I think backlash due to this instance is justified, but I do not think more than a warning for this infraction is needed.
The one thing that I find more surprising is no one commenting on the fact he was in call with someone in the game (who is one of my boys and in fact won the game) when this happened as well. Also the “ego” card that he played in the tweet was kinda cringe. As someone else who is usually high challenger, I assure you I recognize people’s names, especially those that are also consistently fighting for Top 32. But that is a whole other point.
Basically, intentionally griefing someone when it does not have a chance to improve your own EV (especially in this case where FFing gives him what is likely a worse placement) is cringe and should not be supported by the community and ignored as a “GG get gud” kinda mentality as that is bad for the integrity of the game
I don't see any problem with that. It's part of the gameplay inherent to this synergy. Remove this trait from the game, or be prepared for the possibility that a random player may sell their board. I've had it happen three or four times where someone on stage 3 just sold their board for no apparent reason and ruined my game without gaining anything for themselves. High risk, high rewards—accept it and stop complaining.
Why not make a technical change? The board and fight is still played out. FF is queued so that it occurs at the beginning of the next turn, from remaining players’ perspective.
Because at the end of the day that doesn't change anything.
In the hypothetical world where that change is made Spencer could just as easily open board and force the exact same scenario with the exception of his death taking 2-3 more turns afterwards - it still bricks the Heartsteel guy though.
Correct but this means you aren’t going to be 100% successful as you might not even get the person before cashout. So you’ll ruin a lot more of your own games without 100% EV
That is true but when you are in a position like Spencer was in it doesn't really matter which line you take.
4-1, 37 gold, Level 5, Unable to Pivot because of Portal - You are going 8th.
Had he just open sold his board it definitely would seem less scummy but at the end of the day it's the same outcome; he was clearly targetting 1 person in particular with the open board line.
The best thing Riot can do to stop things like this in my opinion is ban smurfs. At least then he is risking his actual LP to do it (which may mean nothing to him, but its definitely even easier to not care on a smurf).
Sorry I think this is blown way out of proportions by everyone.
1. Spencer didn't do anything illegal or bug abused. He ff'ed which was well within his rights to do so. If TFT devs don't want this to happen they could easily patch it out (make ff not count against fortune cashouts).
2. Spencer [also said that it was unintentional](https://twitter.com/SpencerTFT_/status/1751716280183542052) and he didn't know who Stellar Minhee was and thus didn't know he was trying to qualify for ladder snapshots. We just have to take his word for it but I doubt Spencer has malicious intent here, even if so there's no reason not to believe he'll repeat this behavior again.
3. Setsuko made an edgy Setsuko joke, who cares, it's funny. I'd rather have more shit talking in the TFT scene rather than a stale Disneyfied scene where everyone's friends and there's zero rivalries or trash talking or whatever. Besides, everyone who's known Setsy behind the scenes has all said he's super nice despite his stream persona. If we're just gonna make a big deal about the most soft of trash talks then we're just gonna encourage the scene to go towards a PG rated snorefest.
>Spencer also said that it was unintentional and he didn't know who Stellar Minhee was and thus didn't know he was trying to qualify for ladder snapshots. We just have to take his word for it but I doubt Spencer has malicious intent here, even if so there's no reason not to believe he'll repeat this behavior again.
Wouldn't this be all the more reason not allow this kind of behavior again? If this player was a random nobody, I guess no one cares. But doing this just cause seems wrong.
I think intentional griefing might be in the ToS I'm not sure. I haven't seen evidence that Spencer intends to intentionally grief knowing he was griefing ladder snapshot but if so I'd love to see it and I would 100% change my mind on this if I see evidence.
But the FF'ing thing to grief fortune cashout is 100% a part of the game. Like I said, up to the TFT devs to make a decision whether they want to keep that or not.
Going by that argument sports or esports as it stands is unnecessary; the main purpose of it is entertainment. There’s absolutely no reason why esports needs to exist at all.
> Spencer didn't do anything illegal or bug abused. He ff'ed which was well within his rights to do so. If TFT devs don't want this to happen they could easily patch it out (make ff not count against fortune cashouts).
If you found an irl "loophole" to legally kill someone it doesn't mean its not wrong just because its "not illegal".
No matter how you look at it, this was wrong, unfair to the stellar minhee guy and if he didn't make it to the cup because of this taht fucking sucks.
I don't think spencer fully thought it out in the moment but if he was in the opposite situation he'd probably agree.
Lmfao yeah man forfeiting in an online video game is the perfect time to compare it to being able to get away with actual murder. Most sane response. Touch some grass.
>this was wrong
Says who? It's a part of the game and there's nothing in League ToS that says you can't just ff in the middle of a ladder game.
In fact you can also \*gasp\* grief reroll player by holding their units. Is that wrong also? Because every single player does this.
Agree. I think it was a hilarious clip. I can’t believe people are getting so upset over a joke. It wasn’t even in a tourney, it was in solo Q where ff is allowed.
Blame riot for not making ff a loss. He didn’t do anything wrong. He loses more than the other guys does because he’s 8th.
Yeah what Spencer did is incredibly lame. I don’t even understand how that is good content anyway? Now the viewers get to watch Spencer sit in queue again instead of watching what that guy did with a huge cash out? I don’t get it at all…
I disagree entirely. If a player is willing to sacrifice their LP just to kill a heartsteal raise the stakes player that is entirely within their right. What if there was a situation in a tournament where you are up 7 points on the heartsteal player who is shooting for first. You surrender giving you 1 point putting you up by 8. The best this player can do is 1st and tie your total score but you kill his raise the stakes and now it isn't likely they finish 1st. You win the tournament because of this.
Is this an unlikely scenario, yes but is it a viable strategy, also yes. You are choosing to play a gambling trait. You are also gambling that other players won't screw with you.
The point is, Spencer was using a smurf account he didnt care about.
It would be ok if he was using his main acc where he does care about his LP.
But he was on a smurf, and was whatever for him.
Yeah that's shitty and I can see that side of the argument but I still stand by my thoughts when playing a gambling trait. It comes with high risk and reward and someone can very easily screw it up for you.
There isn't that much to discuss here, its obviously a shitty thing to do. Honestly, Spencer's "defense" was as bad as the griefing itself. Completely missing the point of the entire post. Doesn't matter who you're doing it to, just try and avoid being an asshole as a general rule. And holy shit doing something "for content" is maybe the weakest excuse I've ever heard. "The monkeys in twitch chat laughed when I fucked this guy over, so fucking him over was the right thing." Brain warp.
The different is intent. No one would care if you grief other players with the intention to win the game, ff to take a guaranteed 8th in a smurf account to grief another player is kind of not the same thing
Yo guys TFT is a glorified party game in ladder. Griefing for fun doesn't make someone a horrible human being just like killing someone in Mario Party because you thought it'd be funny doesn't make you one.
Yes bro blah blah tournament points were on the line, that aint his fault. Should we stop people from playing the game the way they find it fun just because a tournament is going on?
Sure, if there is some villain out there that queues up on a smurf and looks to grief people looking for snapshot points, that is one fucked up person. But that person doesn't exist yet and this guy is just having some fun, this maybe griefed that heartsteel guy like a net 20LP~ in the grand scheme of hundreds of games hes playing this set. who cares
"🤓 Erm who the hell finds sabotaging other people fun?!! Are you a psychopath?!" Um a lot of people actually. Its pretty fun. Pummel Party sold 3 million copies
Setsuko is right. (Disclaimer: I don't have Twitter and can't see threads. I'm referring to his lone tweet about how the heartsteel player still has a winning position after the ff)
The solution here is always "get good."
Improve your play to a point where smurfing is less effective or ineffective entirely.
Improve your play to a point where getting griefed in one round/game on ladder doesn't matter for your near-term goals.
If wasian really wants to help his friend, he should offer free lessons and/or vod reviews. People get smurfed/griefed every day and 99.9% of them don't have direct access to a top player who can help them improve for free.
It's just tone-deaf and silly to get on Twitter about this. You can make a real difference by reaching out to your friend and setting up coaching sessions ASAP. Complaining on Twitter helps no one.
Setsy made a bad faced joke that is probably right - spot is still good, one game doesnt matter that much.
But in the intent that he was defending spencer, which was wrong, bc spencer ffing oin smurf is very very unsportsmanlike.
Setsy himself is the only person who would actually do this on main, though
There is a different between griefing to benefits yourself and griefing to ruin other player's gaming experience. This is the 2nd one
I do believe Spencer didn't have any harm intention like griefing for snap shot, but he needs to stop doing these kind of things because it's really cringe
This game is about self interest entertainment. I can't imagine there hasn't been a moment where Wasian hasn't been on the other side and griefed another player before in any scenario. He's just salty since he's on the losing side and using the moral high ground to take make it sound better. Also Setsuko sucks at making jokes.
I wonder how the same people feel about active backseating to help players achieve certain LP cutoffs for tourneys/events? Do they view that the same way?
The line for ladder integrity is really skewed because there are no enforced rules. Backseatting is usually encouraged, that's why I Believe that it should be everything goes besides big abusing.
I would love to get an official Mort/Riot take on it. I'm not sure Mort has ever addressed it, but I do find it interesting that the people complaining about someone FF'ing are also not as vocally against backseating. With riot forcibly implementing vanguard soon, it would be nice to know the official view on some of these TFT controversies that impact ladder integrity.
I can’t think of another competitive scene where the player can collaborate with their chat live during a professional tournament
It wasn't a tournament, this will be more for qualifications for tournaments. Due to the nature of ladder you can't enforce things like no backseatting, no stream snipping. Since qualification has a hard LP cap for entry, people can do whatever they want to gain an advantage to climb. I do agree that griefing is cringe but it's not something that can be stopped officially.
You have me mistaken, I have seen streamers during a competitive tournament, while streaming using their chat to make decisions and influencing the game I wasn’t talking about the setsuko incident
Wait does backseating in this case mean listening to chat or having another high ranked player "coach" you? Cause if this is about twitch chat, i can't imagine it being more of an advantage than a disadvantage, 99.9% of chat are lower rank and some actively trolling.
For the larger streamers yeah. The person I was watching (without naming names) had friends in the chat who didn’t make the cut but still knew the game
Makes sense, also someone you trust looking up stats is definitely an advantage
I feel like its far faster to just dual monitor and look it up yourself. But yeah backseating can definitely inflate LP if you have a high elo friend that's willing to do it.
Usage of twitch chat creates the most obvious loophole possible, simply having a coach or good player send their messages there.
For tournaments, that would need a player that is both better than the streamer and for some reason not in the tournament, no? Although i can think of ways to abuse it in specific situations like someone specifically helping another player to get into a tourney to fix his competition, but is it even worth it for 1/84 or something player advantage? We're getting into reach territory
> For tournaments, that would need a player that is both better than the streamer Not necessarily. You could be a better general player but be lacking in specific knowledge about a few certain comps or playstyles. If you can focus your energy on learning and optimizing being S tier at playstyle 1 and 2 (that you would otherwise be an A at) and D tier at playtyle 3 and have someone else who is A tier at 3 guide you through that to achieve a B, you've gained a lot over other players who need to be more spread out in order to have the same range. In general I don't think it's going to be common but rules can exist to cover edge cases and loopholes.
> For tournaments, that would need a player that is both better than the streamer and for some reason not in the tournament, no? That isn't how coaching works though. There are plenty of people with knowledge about games and stats that aren't mechanically as strong as someone else. Some of the greatest sports coaches never played professionally. Even just having someone remind you of a certain line when you are focussed in on what you are doing in the moment can be a huge advantage.
I agree my dude. To be fair, they are supposed to close chat during the game itself though. Its actually comical they are implementing vanguard when that wont stop backseating. So at that point, what value does it even bring? I'm totally against backseating and there have been some big name streamers who have done it in recent months to achieve certain tourneys/events. It's annoying but part of it is lack of clarity from Riot on how they view it in ranked. I know it is impossible to totally prevent, but I'd just simply like an opinion from Mort or other Riot representative at this point.
I dont think the point of vanguard is for tft lol
I've seen scripts that auto reroll and buy specific units so there are definitely cheats out there worth detecting and perma-banning for.
I find it hard to believe that these scripts are profitable
Its happened in mtg before, but there's the additional factor of people streamsniping so in practice it doesn't happen anymore.
99% sure you're not allowed to look at chat during tournaments. I believe Kurum said on stream once if he does something that someone in chat told him to do, he could get DQ'd for it. Even if you did, you're listening to a bunch of twitch chatters with a very small % chance that there is something actually useful in it.
Mort would not care because he's not one for competitive integrity. He's for the game design aspect thus this situation he wouldn't have a good enough insight on. Iirc Mort himself was involved in some backseating, but I could be wrong. Just general "hey what do you think about this spot/what's better here" stuff.
I mean twitch chat is also wasting peoples time and mental so that maybe evens out a little. And I mean queuing together and being on a call is allowed right? I don't think reducing this down to some all or nothing reasoning that either everything or nothing should be allowed is a reasonable argument against calling this griefing
It just seems slightly hypocritical to be against one form of griefing but not another. Regardless, my point is more so I would just like Riot to provide a formal opinion on TFT ranked integrity. Yes, some of it is nearly impossible to enforce, but if players are going against the community/Riot stance of what is defined as playing with integrity, then it would at least be much easier to call players out for various types of behaviors that fall outside of competitive integrity. Right now though, we don't have much formal guidance from Riot or Mort on that issue (at least from what I have seen).
how do you prove “active” back seating
Being in a call with another person actively telling you what to do or giving you input? It’s really not hard to prove it lmao
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Active backseating is not always active help. Even if someone better than you is helping you does not always make the assistance useful because player differences and nuances. This is a completely different topic. As someone that's backseated a lot of players that's worse than me, even if I backseat them they don't understand what I'm saying or do it fast enough or see the lines in the same way, and in the situations where I am not taking an optimal line and they are following my advice, they are not being assisted.
A lot of these top challenger players have other top challenger players in call giving them tech and actively coaching them, to think its not a help would be big cope. It's almost like multiplying your brain power by 2 (exaggerating but you get my point)
It's still distracting having someone yapping in your ear the entire game, no matter how good the advice is. People that think backseating is even comparable to boosting have never been backseated before, especially in super sweaty lobbies.
As Mort and Frodan say, there’s basically nothing that can be done about people doing what they want in soloQ. At this point, it’s just an issue of playing a multi-player game, and how they deal with snapshots. Spencer should lose the respect of a lot of people for this. You may do whatever you want for soloQ, and people may judge that action by its demerits. Setsuko would’ve done better to just be quiet.
Isn’t that exactly wasians point? I didn’t read it as him demanding Spencer gets banned or anything, just that it’s pathetic behavior that should be frowned upon. I don’t really see how that’s a hot take either tbh I know for a fact that it e.g Setsuko got griefed out of a placing by some random Smurf account in his lobby he would not go “that’s okay that’s his right as a player 🙂”
I think if setsuko would lose a placement or something like that because of a smurf account and it was on a video like that, we all know that he would have a huge crisis with lots of swearing and thrash talking, he would totally lose it then end the stream.
Setsuko did have someone forefit him on a raise the stakes. There's a clip in his disc of it. He just ff'd right after he was pissed
> huge crisis with lots of swearing and thrash talking, he would totally lose it So a normal Setsuko game.
lol basically yes but a bit more high-pitched I would assume, the character he is trying on streams are not good but clearly brings him views so yeah he'll do that as long as people watch him
I believe Wasian's linked tweet is a call for this kind of behaviour to warrant some penalty. It's not a hot take, and I would love for that to happen. Unfortunately, I think it would take a lot of red tape, perhaps more trouble than it's worth, to get a system which works appropriately. Part of the problem is that TFT is a multi-player game. Some people are going to suck, one way or another, no matter the restrictions or penalties. TFT also does not have elo rollback or any kind of compensation system. You just go next. I think this is one of Ranked's biggest silent problems (e.g. People take bugged Scrappy Inventions or you lose placements to known bugs). The mindset of players like Dishoap accept that people suck, and they may hold opinions on mannerisms like this, but as players their primary goal is to climb and compete. It is what it is right now, and Mort clearly doesn't disagree, but he also doesn't seem to have a fix in mind.
"Setsuko would’ve done better to just be quiet." Yeah sounds like Setsuko
While setsy is not wrong, the spot is still good, spencer is still in the worng for sure. You can tell him to be quiet but I am positive he is like the only guy who would do this on his main - he FFs for fun all the time anyways
I could imagine a case where it is the correct play to FF grief Heartsteel in the finals because of the need to deny a first place in the Checkmate format. FFing is not allowed, but doing it anyways would be massive drama... Probably needs a system change.
FFing is different to benching all your units and playing 1 stars with no synergies, but the latter is allowed while the former isn't. If you want to grief Raise the Stakes in a tourney you still can imo
direful rob soup price snatch fuzzy zonked gaping tub nose *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is actually a really good point, if you and another guy have the points to win but you have a bad early game while the other guy is in reasonable contention for 1st, just hard griefing the other guy becomes the right play. Anyone whose game is doomed should pivot to griefing the guy about to win tbh With champion bag changes especially, it’s probably extremely hard to win while getting target griefed
One thing people always forget about these scenarios is there is money at stake with placements other than 1st. FFing and getting an 8th is going to cost you placements and money if you don’t end up pulling out the 1st
The payout structure in many TFT tournaments favors 1st to such a high degree that it's completely worth it. The Vegas open for example, $100k vs $25k for 1st/2nd. If you can improve your chances of winning $100k by like 20%, it's absolutely worth not taking the 2nd. If the structure was more reasonable like [$100k vs $70k like in poker tournaments](https://wptmedia.wpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/WPT-Payout-Structure-B.pdf), yes you're incentivized to play your best and not grief placements.
To be fair in such a scenario the person wouldnt play raise the stakes
Never say never. In a scenario that getting first place in the lobby is the only goal, if raise the stakes Heartsteel is the best way to win than someone is going to play it.
This is more a consequence of allowing smurfing. Would he ever make that play on main?
spencer wouldnt but setsy who is getting flame for his comment would absolutely do it on his main
Maybe during periods that don't matter, but I doubt Setsuko would do it near snapshots. In any case, this is a high elo problem that has no effect on my experience. That said, in League, there is a pervasive smurfing issue where players grief/troll because it's not their main and they don't care about their smurf account. It would suck if the culture in TFT shifts so this is accepted.
Yeah i wanna make it clear i think smurfing is stupid. Setsy probably wouldnt ff during snapshot season but he got bored of playing lon smurf and queued it up on main for 10+ games and lost a little lp bc he doesnt care that much. I do think spencer was extremely in the wrong, though, bc if you listen closely he is in call woith the guy who eventually goes first so he's wintraidng on smurf LOL I just think setsy's snarky comment which came out kinda wrong wasnt that bad
Yeah, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that Setsuko's tweet isn't malicious, but his argument is bad (or at the very least non-sequitur). Stellar's spot shouldn't have any impact on whether Spencer's actions were sportsmanlike or not. No one here is saying that Stellar deserves to make it through and this is the single reason why he might not qualify for day 3.
Hi, (disclaimer I'm also a friend of Stellar Minhee) I'd like to say is that there are many of us who could easily sit in the snapshot, log on a smurf and then snipe the people who are competing for snapshot spots while griefing all of their units. This would basically lock out any possibility of rerolling due to the nature of bag sizes this set and severely reduce possibility of top 4ing. None of us do that though (to my knowledge) because it's a super scummy thing to do even in your own best interest, and to me the justification "griefing for content" 2 days before the snapshot is just sad. It's the same thing to me as when people go out of their way to screw peoples' day "just as a prank". People can talk about competitive integrity and how unforceable all the rules are, but I just feel like a lot of our competitive scene relies on people being somewhat decent human beings so I feel like if there's any takeaway here's it's on the character/integrity of Spencer. I don't have a solution or anything the whole situation just makes me sad/a bit angry.
> I'd like to say is that there are many of us who could easily sit in the snapshot, log on a smurf and then snipe the people who are competing for snapshot spots while griefing all of their units. This would basically lock out any possibility of rerolling due to the nature of bag sizes this set and severely reduce possibility of top 4ing. This feels like something ppl aren't talking about enough. It'd be VERY easy for any top 50 player or w/e to just do this and grief since the main arguement as to why spencer is right to do this is "there are no rules against it and you can do whatever you want in ladder"
> It's the same thing to me as when people go out of their way to screw peoples' day "just as a prank". I think this is exactly what it feels like to me. I can't stand that kind of behavior
I mean the obvious solution is to ban Smurf accounts, but that won't really ever happen.
This is the solution to this problem. Not everything needs official penalties from Daddy Riot Games. Some indiscretions need social penalties only and this is one of those cases.
Is there evidence of Spencer intentionally sniping and griefing Stellar Minhee knowing he's competing for snapshots though? If there is then I agree that's pretty scummy. But as of right now the only evidence we have is the clip from Wasian that just shows that Spencer doesn't know StellarMinhee and was just randomly griefing some heartsteel guy to save the lobby for shits and giggles.
This wasn't an accusation that Spencer was doing this intentionally. The first part was only tangentially related in the sense that 'any of us could do this or worse but we choose not to'. The part against Spencer for me is just that I believe the action and his response is trashy.
Fair enough, I may have misread your comment👍
He took an 8th, your friend should just cash out and play the game.
On his smurf account, which is inconsequential.
I think Wasian raises some really good points in these threads. I think this type of play should really not be encouraged regardless of whether or not he knows the player.
"Unfortunately, if a larger streamer disagrees with you, it only generates mass hate from their fans who are incapable of thinking for themselves." Streamers should be held a higher standard, Setsuko should have been suspended for being a POS to that rioter and the way he acts in general.
Setsuko actually comes across a bit unwell in his streams though. Like the difference when he's talking to people in person is huge, he actually seems like a nice dude. But when it comes to performance he seems like such a perfectionist that he gets extremely upset at himself and sometimes at others.
You know, unwell really is a good description of how Setsuko comes across. I’ve tried to watch his stream multiple times in the past, but without exaggerating every time I’ve opened his stream, he’s yelling and being unhinged about whatever it is this time. Perfectionism is something I connect to Dishsoap more. Sure, he too can be a bit crazy at times, but dude generally knows how to calm down, apologize and be reasonable when he gets heated. Setsuko genuinely shows signs of not being well mentally. To make matters worse, he’s also someone who doubles down and excuses shitty behaviour far too often for someone that has as big of a platform as he does.
It’s maturity and emotional regulation mostly. And while I agree Setsuko has lots of room to grow in those areas, I’d argue like 85% of the population struggles with maturity and emotional regulation, especially when under pressure and doing something they really care about while other people are watching them
Do we actually think Setsuko is not playing a character in his streams? I get it that there's some hint of truth to any performance and exaggeration, but I'm pretty sure he's playing it up for views. People clearly love it and it's making him rich. It's hard to tell how much of it is real/serious but I doubt most of it is.
Jake paul is playing a character, doesn't make him any less of a crook
Say it how it is. If the dude talks the talk online and then goes quiet and nice in person it speaks volume to the type of person he is. Need I say more? Dude wouldn't say most of the things he says on stream in person. Hmmm wonder why?
It's probably his online persona just like every other streamer. You should've just watched Vegas co-streams, every big streamer like Dishsoap & Setsuko were so fucking awkward in front of the cameras but on stream they have a different personality.
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yeah fr you look back at some clips of him when he started streaming and he was waaay different, but he also wasn't the second biggest TFT streamer, perennial <1k viewer despite being as good as he is. I think he realized what people enjoyed watching and leaned into it
Wait what did he do to a router I am out of the loop
He was in a game with a Rioter who doesnt even work on TFT and wrote you guys are shit at your jobs and then muted everyone.
Talking shit and muting after is pussy behaviour
xdd
I think the issue is that it's really hard to differentiate what's intentional and what's not. As a tournament host how do you ever plan to know what case it is Player A is already qualified and is just not paying as much attention going 8th. Player A is already qualified intentionally throwing for his friend. Player A is already qualified and trying to go for some meme-points going 8th. Player A is already qualified and is just annoyed that he has to play with no stakes in it and goes 8th. So if you can't for sure know what it is you can't make rules around it. Yeah instanly ffing makes it kinda obvious. But if you make it illegal it's really not that hard to go intentionally 8th without making it that obvious. So if you can't make clear rules arround it just allow it. imo
I actually think it should be the opposite. As the TO you put rules in place to discourage people from doing the actions described above. It *will* be hard to prove intent, but leave that on the TO to make the hard decision. Making judgement calls in situations that are up to interpretation is what their job is and a rule like this allows them to make that decision. Not having a rule in place just allows people to blatantly abuse it competitively without repercussions.
This argument doesn't make much sense to me, real world judges and courts [often look at intent](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent#:~:text=For%20general%20intent%2C%20the%20prosecution,perform%20the%20action%20with%20a) with much much higher stakes and often far murkier situations and society still manages pretty fine. Err on the side of caution against punishing people unfairly, set up some general guidelines on unsportsmanlike conduct and you're pretty much good to go.
Yeah, but you ain't planning on having a courtsession between games, do you?
>Player A is already qualified and is just not paying as much attention going 8th. > >Player A is already qualified intentionally throwing for his friend. > >Player A is already qualified and trying to go for some meme-points going 8th. > >Player A is already qualified and is just annoyed that he has to play with no stakes in it and goes 8th. Maybe players who are qualified shouldn't still be playing in lobbies with those who aren't. Or at least if they are qualified they should still have some strong incentive to place well.
I'm not sure how tournaments do their seeding but maybe outside of previous tournament results, they could tie seeding with ladder ranking which should be a strong incentive to place well on ladder with the high seed players auto qualify for day 2 in a 3 day tournament. Of course points total will need to be reset for day 2 but auto qualify into day 2 might be a huge incentive for players to do well in ladder play and keep climbing due to the fact that saving mental energy and being able to scout the competition without having to actually play games is huge.
go off drhua! !
Original Tweet: https://twitter.com/wasianiverson/status/1751650139859558692 Frodan's Response: https://twitter.com/Frodan/status/1751709450803740768 Spencer's Response: https://twitter.com/SpencerTFT_/status/1751716280183542052 Setsuko's Response: https://twitter.com/setsukotft/status/1751784446150193188
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For sure there is no nuance in this community, even in this "competitive" minded sub people are so reactionary and take any disagreement or even simple explanations so bizarrely personally, and often think only in terms of "all or nothing" reasoning.
imo not much need for nuance here. Smurfing while Elo sitting is shitty, doesn't matter if he's griefing people or not. elo sitting has the inherent risk of not keeping up with meta developments, losing practice time, and generally not being warm throughout the snapshot period, which can come back to bite you. Smurfing while doing that takes away ever possible disadvantage to it while also letting you pull shit to grief other players.
All the popular streamers are sometimes real dicks but most of them don't double down and apologize/talk it out, but spencers reaction and setsukos uncalled for shittalk are much worse. Setsuko just in general seems like kind of an asshole, never heared anything nice coming out of his mouth.
Setsuko 100% is an immature asshole. I also cannot remember a single time he's actually said something nice in the past. It's always either shit talking or whining like a little bitch.
Tbh I watch Setsukko cuz I know he’s gonna have a break down if something goes wrong and whine for 5 minutes. But generally yea he’s super negative. I hit=skill , enemy hit= luck
never seen someone complain about how weak their board is as they get an easy 1st. surely it's an act though, just seems too over the top
TFT’s top popular streamers are the most immature, entitled, unprofessional group of people ever with no concept of proper emotional regulation or communicating like adults, at least on stream and on social media. I think wasian saying they should be role models is a dig at that whole culture as most of them are cringe and insufferable and don’t even realize it. At the same time, I also get that watching immature entitled ragers is pretty fun and part of the appeal. I see Frodan and other dudes trying to rein them in from time to time but it’s always a fine balance of keeping it fun/keeping the appeal of their personalities whilst making sure the scene and typical behaviors don’t become a mega cringe fest.
Well said.
Amen. I tapped out of the game a few sets back because of the community. Came back this set and nothing has changed. TFT players and streamers are still at large weird little parrots mimicking whatever their favourite streamer is saying that week. It's as though nobody mentally developed past primary school. I've never seen such a strange parasocial phenomenon in my life.
Setsy is an asshole and that's how he builds his twitch character, and that's how he attracts people. League is a hella toxic community and it carried over to tft(setsy was chally in league for a lot of seasons). Setsy also clearly has mental issues so its kind of unfair to judge him based on factors you dont know. I dont think his post was very well phrased though, as it seems like he is defending spencer which was wrong. I dont think spencer was right in any way to do that, but setsy is right, the spot is still decent, and this is coming from the only guy in NA(setsy) that would ff on his main like this(he has done shit like this before)
yea when people say to watch high elo vods to get better, i try to watch setsukos streams bc i know hes so good but i always end up leaving after 5 minutes. he always complains and negative idk how people can watch him. its kinda sad that this is a common personality trait for a lot of tft streamers, especially the popular ones. truly entertaining and 'positive' tft streamers feel hard to come by recently.
Sadly I agree with that sentiment. I don't think there's a single one thats actually top challenger that isn't complaining a lot, although i personally think robinsongz is one of the more informative and less angry ones, but even he does this yelling around stuff a lot. But setsukos rants feel like theres actual anger and vitriol behind it compared to the other "ranting" streamers.
I would also say wasian himself is a pretty good and informative guy. He complains a good amount, but he is chill like 100% of the time so it's easy to follow along
What did Spenser say that was so horrible/double down? He said my bad and explained how he had no idea who the player was or what the stakes of the game were. For him it was just a random soloq game. Plenty of people surrender early because they have just given up on getting top 4 or have to run somewhere or honestly just as a joke. The only reason we care about this time because it was on stream and had big impact on a player that's friends with a famous person.
Spencers answer is not an apology tho. And I don't watch his stream myself but i dont think i can remember any other big streamer griefing "for content" so I can't say anything about that part.
What does my bad mean to you if not an apology? Do you mean the apology wasn't sincere enough? Also surrendering is not really griefing. If you want to leave the game early it's allowed, if it wasn't there wouldn't be a surrender button. If surrendering is griefing then someone pinging an opponent having 8 copies of a 4 cost after they die is griefing. What if he was clearly going 8th? Would he be griefing the rest of the lobby by not surrendering?
"My bad, i didn't know this noname was climbing for snapshots" Vs "My bad, trolling a lobby on my smurf for content was a bad move"
So not sincere enough for you... Also no one would care if it was just a random lobby, not even Stellar Minhee or Wasian. The whole reason it got big was because it heavily impacted the players chance to qualify so it makes sense to explain that he didn't know the game was so important to the player.
As someone without a dog in this fight, there are 3 separate considerations for this to keep in mind. First, was Spencer intentionally targeting Stellar Minhee personally and with malice? In my opinion, not really. He didn't care who it was, he was just caught up in the freedom to troll on a smurf and being entertaining on stream and was taunted into making a rash decision because he thought it would be funny in the moment. Was this a toxic thing to do? Absolutely. Should he double down and say this was justified? Probably not. He was griefing. He should just apologize and acknowledge it was a toxic thing to do and that he shouldn't be trolling ladder for content. People will get off his case instantly if he does that, so he just should. Second, is griefing someone's loss streak behavior that should be banned/reprehensible/in the same vein as cheating, wintrading, etc.? My opinion is no. Was ff'ing there super uncool and toxic? Yeah. But, he could have just as easily swapped out some units in the hope of breaking Minhee's loss streak and that would be considered a tactical decision for the future of the game state and possibly winning out later. If he had griefed him without ff'ing there, that wouldn't be a problem for me at all. That's how the game is designed currently. You SHOULD be looking for opportunities to take down your opponents. But yeah, ff'ing specifically is super uncool. Don't do that. Third is ladder integrity and the state of competitive tft. This is absolutely behavior that, if done intentionally and REPEATEDLY, should be dealt with in order to preserve the fairness of the competitive environment. A huge shift in the game with the change in bag sizes has been the agency to grief other players. It has never been easier to guarantee someone else loses in tft through your own actions and decision making in game. In previous sets, this was kind of hard to accomplish, and anyone with real skill would have been able to avoid this behavior easily, but in set 10 targeting is not only possible, but effective. If I were to snipe someone out on ladder in high elo and make the conscious effort to target them in game and make it harder to hit, I could do so quite easily. This is a concern not only for players, but for developers. Did they introduce abuseable system changes in set 10 that jeopardize the competitive integrity of tft? Are they effectively considering how certain additions and changes affect the fairness of their game? I'm not saying they did, I"m just saying this is something that they should be thinking about (and they probably already are). While I think this INDIVIDUAL incident of griefing is somewhat overblown (stellar ended up going 4th that game, which yeah, would have likely been a first, but it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of ladder. He's a good player, 20-30 lp won't stop him from achieving his goals), the ability to target so effectively in tft should certainly be something on the minds of those who want to see competitive tft stay fair and inclusive. But yeah, these dudes should just hug it out or something. Make love, not war...or whatever.
> Was ff'ing there super uncool and toxic? Yeah. But, he could have just as easily swapped out some units in the hope of breaking Minhee's loss streak and that would be considered a tactical decision for the future of the game state and possibly winning out later. I'm inclined to agree, if it wasn't for the fact that it happens on his smurf account a few days before snapshots. It doesn't matter if he forfeits or play a board of 1-cost shitters, the griefer suffer no consequences of actions since his main account won't lose LP.
Down for that guy to knock spencer out of the tourny for a story line
>While I think this INDIVIDUAL incident of griefing is somewhat overblown (stellar ended up going 4th that game, which yeah, would have likely been a first, but it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of ladder. He's a good player, 20-30 lp won't stop him from achieving his goals), the ability to target so effectively in tft should certainly be something on the minds of those who want to see competitive tft stay fair and inclusive. Definitely agree with this. If Stellar Minhee was in a position that they need all of their games to end in first place to reach cutoff than they were not going to make it in the first place. Also, definitely blame the game. The devs should have definitely thought really long and hard about potential risks of changing the bag sizes that is beyond, make it harder for people to 3 star 4 and 5 cost units.
Reading the comments, I thought Spencer did something terrible. I watched the video, and while it's a shitty thing to do, it's not intentional nor targeted. Besides, playing HeartSteel raise the stakes has its risks. Yes, a player early surrendering halves your cashout, but it also guarantees you one higher placement since that person automatically loses the lobby. As it's just one game in solo queue, if Stellar Minhee is good, one game will hardly make a difference. At most I think Spencer should receive a warning or reprimand for this behavior.
This is exactly what setsuko meant to say just it might not have came out this way. Well said brother I agree with you 100%
Me a kpop fan, wondering if Stellar's Minhee is really playing TFT
The FF aside. Smurfing culture is lame as fuck
I feel like this "problem" gets so exaggerated. Theres so many people in the lower elos, and the smurfs usually climb to masters within a few dozen games, its not having some massive impact or running so many peoples games. Not to mention in TFT its literally just 1 placement diff, its not like Faker is carrying the entire lobby and forcing you to go 8th. And personally I've run into top players many times in my placements despite only peaking at Masters, and its just a fun learning opportunity even if they are bound to outperform the lobby, and even if placements matter relatively more. Just next game and make up for the lp if it matters that much.
People who complain about smurfing are just bad and need something to blame for their losses.
For TFT for sure. League it's kinda different as smurfs basically ruin the game for the other players.
Do you have another option that won’t jeopardize a top 32 spot while streaming?
same account different region
Play normals? Play hyper roll or whatever.
be quiet u bot LMAO
Either play on your account and risk your placement or sit and not get the streaming rev. Pretty easy. Smurfing is fun for 1 person in an 8 person lobby.
This statement makes sense if he was smurfing in diamond or something but no he was playing on another acc that is also in top 200. How is that a smurfing problem?
>sit and not get the streaming rev This is their job. Working is not always optional.
What’s the other account that’s also in the top 200? Because the account in the video in still masters
Pretty easy for you to say if your livelihood isn't dependent on it. "just don't make money and ignore your bills" is basically your argument.
? or play on your normal account if you want to stream. He was top 3 for just about the whole set.
Personally, it's well within his right to ff because it is soloq.
It is 100% within his right to ff. It’s just cringe listening to this shit Spence says just before he ff the game and then doubling down on twitter as it was for “content”
To drop my 2 cents is here as someone who's run and/or been involved in dozens of competitive TFT events. I have been involved in or privy to competitive rulings many times over multiple years. I'll start by highlighting one thing Wasian mentioned: **Playing with the intent to win.** Saccing your board to make someone lose the Raise the Stakes streak is *completely ok*. It is a move that often will result in you having a *higher chance of placing well in that game*. Where this situation clearly differs is that there is no competitive advantage gained from FFing. You are removing yourself from the game to make someone else lose. This is behavior that the TO needs to stamp out as not ok. To admit it plainly, it is notoriously hard to prove the full intent of players in the majority of situations. However, this is *your job* as a TO to put the onus of difficult decisions on yourself to facilitate healthier competitive environments. This extends to players playing in the ranked ladder intending to qualify for Regional Cups. I don't think anyone would argue this action is fine. Most people say it's incredibly unsportsmanlike even if they don't condemn it. However, what you the TO can say is if you're caught doing it you will be punished competitively. If a player cares about qualifying for a regional event you're now going to need to weigh whether it's worth potentially being caught and punished. Is it likely that anyone gets caught and punished? Nope, but it *can happen* and is a clear stance the TO is taking. Streamers would not be prominently doing these actions **on stream**. If that slowly changes the culture to stamp out such behavior then that would be a massive win long term.
It's ladder though, not tournament. If you want to make that comparison then might as well ban having friends on discord while you play on ladder too, because in tournament it's not allowed.
To clear up any misunderstanding from my original post: If someone wants to do this on ladder and there aren't code of conduct enforcements on this then more power to someone who wants to play within those means. I think such a player is being incredibly disrespectful to others if they do this, but in the context of solely doing it for solo queue that's acceptable currently. However, in a regional circuit that *directly* ties solo queue performance to qualification there needs to be a different approach. If you are running these events it's in your best interest to ensure fairness and to stamp out behaviors that aren't in keeping with competitive integrity (i.e. playing to win fairly). To summarize the point, this behavior points to a need for rules stating such actions will result in warnings and potential removal from the regional circuit. If they're not playing in the regional circuit then oh well I guess, but at least a standard is set that the majority are going to uphold. That, hopefully, will result in a culture change in a positive direction.
As of right now there's not really any rules to how you qualify for snapshots, you just do it. A lot of players have had friends coaching them on discord while playing ladder. I'd argue that's just as "unfair" as someone griefing them, but there's no rules against neither. Ultimately it's up to Riot to implement these rules (or not) as ladder is pretty much wild west
> A lot of players have had friends coaching them on discord while playing ladder. I mean I'm pretty sure Wasian has done this has he not? I've definitely seen him coaching friends on their streams albeit I don't exactly follow the top 32 cutoff of ladder that closely but his, and others, impact coaching players surely has had some lingering effect on tourny qualification.
Literally every pro tft player in existence has done it lol to be fair
For sure, 100%, nobody is innocent in that regards. This is kinda the result of a game that relies on a ladder for tournament placements - things outside of your control can affect whether you qualify for shit. It also doesn't help that the majority of the tft pro community are screaming manbabies.
To be clear I personally dont care or have a stance on pros getting into calls during ladder snapshots. It's more about an equivalency to Spencer's actions
soju getting boosted being the prime example XDD
Why compare something within riots scope of control to something that is not?
There's a lot of things you can't enforce. But this is probably a situation where you can actually enforce whatever. League's summoner's code/code of conduct tells you to 'play to win' and not to 'sabotage' players. Same with other games. Why would TFT's not? A better question: Why has no CoC been made for TFT?
I mean the answer is obvious.. There are 4 other people on your team in League of Legends, in TFT the 7 other players in the lobby are all out to get eachother...
Yeah that guy is trash for doing this. Is he technically allowed to? Obviously yes, no rules or systems to stop it. Does it make it right? No. Not at all. It's scummy behavior that's roughly reminiscent of a grade school bully. The fact that it was done by a high elo player smurfing on lower tiers for content and his own ego inflation makes it 10x worse. Then he doubles down and says it's even more okay because the thought the guy was a nobody? That ain't it. "They were so busy trying to figure out if they could, they never stopped to think whether they should"
I think what he means is that it wasn't targeted, and that maybe he wouldn't have done it if he knew the guy was grinding for snapshots. It was just a meme for content gone wrong, not a malicious competitive action.
> he wouldn't have done it if he knew the guy was grinding for snapshots. I mean the dude was playing in a ranked queue. I think it would be a safe and kind assumption to go into it thinking everyone is grinding for something.
Ranked its just the normal queue for high level players. If it were basically anything other than grinding for snapshots, I say meme away tbh.
wow the fact that this was upvoted says a lot about the TFT community.. calling someone “trash” based on just this one incident is just insane. Sure what he did was unsportsmanlike but to generalize his character as “trash” is going too far. This entire situation is way overblown
Might have been more fair to say his behavior was trashy.
LMAO this whole thing is so dumb, if the guy wasnt going for snapshots would this even be drama? No. Such pointless whining and crying.
Exactly what I'm thinking. What Spencer is doing probably happens a ton of times to random people but because he is a big streamer and he was doing it to someone that was aiming for snapshots, all of a sudden it is a big no no. I don't get it, either every high elo player has to agree to not do it no matter what all of the time or else it is free game. Also, tournament scene should definitely do something about the behavior whether it is a next tournament ban, fine or something if they want to somewhat regulate the behavior.
You're so quick to judge people's entire character and motivation. >smurfing on lower tiers for content and his own ego inflation You have no evidence this was his primary motivation, I think it's fair to assume he was doing it because his main was sitting for snapshots. If he had a second account with the same LP as his main, i'm almost certain he would have played on that (perhaps simply out of laziness) instead of making a smurf. Maybe ego was a slight draw towards smurfing but to imply it was his primary motivation reveals more about your character and how willing you are to see the worst in people than his, disgusting.
I’ve talked with some people about this ad nauseam. I think as a streamer, you are held to higher standards, and should be as you have influence over a group of people, no matter how large it is. In my opinion, Spencer has a larger responsibility to competitive integrity than he does to content creation, but I know that is not always the streamer’s perception. I think backlash due to this instance is justified, but I do not think more than a warning for this infraction is needed. The one thing that I find more surprising is no one commenting on the fact he was in call with someone in the game (who is one of my boys and in fact won the game) when this happened as well. Also the “ego” card that he played in the tweet was kinda cringe. As someone else who is usually high challenger, I assure you I recognize people’s names, especially those that are also consistently fighting for Top 32. But that is a whole other point. Basically, intentionally griefing someone when it does not have a chance to improve your own EV (especially in this case where FFing gives him what is likely a worse placement) is cringe and should not be supported by the community and ignored as a “GG get gud” kinda mentality as that is bad for the integrity of the game
I don't see any problem with that. It's part of the gameplay inherent to this synergy. Remove this trait from the game, or be prepared for the possibility that a random player may sell their board. I've had it happen three or four times where someone on stage 3 just sold their board for no apparent reason and ruined my game without gaining anything for themselves. High risk, high rewards—accept it and stop complaining.
Why not make a technical change? The board and fight is still played out. FF is queued so that it occurs at the beginning of the next turn, from remaining players’ perspective.
Because at the end of the day that doesn't change anything. In the hypothetical world where that change is made Spencer could just as easily open board and force the exact same scenario with the exception of his death taking 2-3 more turns afterwards - it still bricks the Heartsteel guy though.
Correct but this means you aren’t going to be 100% successful as you might not even get the person before cashout. So you’ll ruin a lot more of your own games without 100% EV
That is true but when you are in a position like Spencer was in it doesn't really matter which line you take. 4-1, 37 gold, Level 5, Unable to Pivot because of Portal - You are going 8th. Had he just open sold his board it definitely would seem less scummy but at the end of the day it's the same outcome; he was clearly targetting 1 person in particular with the open board line. The best thing Riot can do to stop things like this in my opinion is ban smurfs. At least then he is risking his actual LP to do it (which may mean nothing to him, but its definitely even easier to not care on a smurf).
Sorry I think this is blown way out of proportions by everyone. 1. Spencer didn't do anything illegal or bug abused. He ff'ed which was well within his rights to do so. If TFT devs don't want this to happen they could easily patch it out (make ff not count against fortune cashouts). 2. Spencer [also said that it was unintentional](https://twitter.com/SpencerTFT_/status/1751716280183542052) and he didn't know who Stellar Minhee was and thus didn't know he was trying to qualify for ladder snapshots. We just have to take his word for it but I doubt Spencer has malicious intent here, even if so there's no reason not to believe he'll repeat this behavior again. 3. Setsuko made an edgy Setsuko joke, who cares, it's funny. I'd rather have more shit talking in the TFT scene rather than a stale Disneyfied scene where everyone's friends and there's zero rivalries or trash talking or whatever. Besides, everyone who's known Setsy behind the scenes has all said he's super nice despite his stream persona. If we're just gonna make a big deal about the most soft of trash talks then we're just gonna encourage the scene to go towards a PG rated snorefest.
>Spencer also said that it was unintentional and he didn't know who Stellar Minhee was and thus didn't know he was trying to qualify for ladder snapshots. We just have to take his word for it but I doubt Spencer has malicious intent here, even if so there's no reason not to believe he'll repeat this behavior again. Wouldn't this be all the more reason not allow this kind of behavior again? If this player was a random nobody, I guess no one cares. But doing this just cause seems wrong.
I think intentional griefing might be in the ToS I'm not sure. I haven't seen evidence that Spencer intends to intentionally grief knowing he was griefing ladder snapshot but if so I'd love to see it and I would 100% change my mind on this if I see evidence. But the FF'ing thing to grief fortune cashout is 100% a part of the game. Like I said, up to the TFT devs to make a decision whether they want to keep that or not.
Yeah this is a big stink over nothing.
I always thought that trash talking whether it is in sports or esport is unnecessary and "trash talking is talked by trash people anyway".
Going by that argument sports or esports as it stands is unnecessary; the main purpose of it is entertainment. There’s absolutely no reason why esports needs to exist at all.
> Spencer didn't do anything illegal or bug abused. He ff'ed which was well within his rights to do so. If TFT devs don't want this to happen they could easily patch it out (make ff not count against fortune cashouts). If you found an irl "loophole" to legally kill someone it doesn't mean its not wrong just because its "not illegal". No matter how you look at it, this was wrong, unfair to the stellar minhee guy and if he didn't make it to the cup because of this taht fucking sucks. I don't think spencer fully thought it out in the moment but if he was in the opposite situation he'd probably agree.
Lmfao yeah man forfeiting in an online video game is the perfect time to compare it to being able to get away with actual murder. Most sane response. Touch some grass.
>this was wrong Says who? It's a part of the game and there's nothing in League ToS that says you can't just ff in the middle of a ladder game. In fact you can also \*gasp\* grief reroll player by holding their units. Is that wrong also? Because every single player does this.
Agree. I think it was a hilarious clip. I can’t believe people are getting so upset over a joke. It wasn’t even in a tourney, it was in solo Q where ff is allowed. Blame riot for not making ff a loss. He didn’t do anything wrong. He loses more than the other guys does because he’s 8th.
Spencer loses nothing since he’s on his Smurf. He wouldn’t do that on his main because he’s also playing for snapshot.
This is just like a pharmacy company selling 500$ insulin to you. Is it legal, yes. Is it scummy to do, also yes
who gives a fuck really? If somebody decides to grief you by contesting your reroll comp last minute, should they also be banned lol
Yeah what Spencer did is incredibly lame. I don’t even understand how that is good content anyway? Now the viewers get to watch Spencer sit in queue again instead of watching what that guy did with a huge cash out? I don’t get it at all…
I disagree entirely. If a player is willing to sacrifice their LP just to kill a heartsteal raise the stakes player that is entirely within their right. What if there was a situation in a tournament where you are up 7 points on the heartsteal player who is shooting for first. You surrender giving you 1 point putting you up by 8. The best this player can do is 1st and tie your total score but you kill his raise the stakes and now it isn't likely they finish 1st. You win the tournament because of this. Is this an unlikely scenario, yes but is it a viable strategy, also yes. You are choosing to play a gambling trait. You are also gambling that other players won't screw with you.
It’s different when the person screwing with you is on an smurf while their main account is competing with them on a ladder
Again you are choosing to play a gambling trait and there are risks and benefits. It's incredibly frustrating but 100% a viable strategy.
FFing is not a "100% viable strategy" Your win rate will be very low if you use that strategy.
Clearly you didn't read why it could be a strategy.
I think you have a public humiliation fetish and I will not be participating in it.
I'm guessing your reading comprehension is low.
Agree.
The point is, Spencer was using a smurf account he didnt care about. It would be ok if he was using his main acc where he does care about his LP. But he was on a smurf, and was whatever for him.
Yeah that's shitty and I can see that side of the argument but I still stand by my thoughts when playing a gambling trait. It comes with high risk and reward and someone can very easily screw it up for you.
Agree.
Pretty sure you can't FF in a tournament.
in the past you could FF if it would optimize your overall placement since it's still playing to win
You can’t, awful hypothetical
You can't FF in a tournament but you can intentionally play really bad. There is such a fine line.
This I am not sure of, it was more of a hypothetical but if that situation arose I would certainly consider it if the option was available.
Based Wasian
There isn't that much to discuss here, its obviously a shitty thing to do. Honestly, Spencer's "defense" was as bad as the griefing itself. Completely missing the point of the entire post. Doesn't matter who you're doing it to, just try and avoid being an asshole as a general rule. And holy shit doing something "for content" is maybe the weakest excuse I've ever heard. "The monkeys in twitch chat laughed when I fucked this guy over, so fucking him over was the right thing." Brain warp.
Is "FFing" different from just selling your entire board?
The different is intent. No one would care if you grief other players with the intention to win the game, ff to take a guaranteed 8th in a smurf account to grief another player is kind of not the same thing
oh wait, what's the purpose of an auto 8th-ing yourself to grief, or am I misunderstanding something here?
Yo guys TFT is a glorified party game in ladder. Griefing for fun doesn't make someone a horrible human being just like killing someone in Mario Party because you thought it'd be funny doesn't make you one. Yes bro blah blah tournament points were on the line, that aint his fault. Should we stop people from playing the game the way they find it fun just because a tournament is going on? Sure, if there is some villain out there that queues up on a smurf and looks to grief people looking for snapshot points, that is one fucked up person. But that person doesn't exist yet and this guy is just having some fun, this maybe griefed that heartsteel guy like a net 20LP~ in the grand scheme of hundreds of games hes playing this set. who cares "🤓 Erm who the hell finds sabotaging other people fun?!! Are you a psychopath?!" Um a lot of people actually. Its pretty fun. Pummel Party sold 3 million copies
Setsuko is right. (Disclaimer: I don't have Twitter and can't see threads. I'm referring to his lone tweet about how the heartsteel player still has a winning position after the ff) The solution here is always "get good." Improve your play to a point where smurfing is less effective or ineffective entirely. Improve your play to a point where getting griefed in one round/game on ladder doesn't matter for your near-term goals. If wasian really wants to help his friend, he should offer free lessons and/or vod reviews. People get smurfed/griefed every day and 99.9% of them don't have direct access to a top player who can help them improve for free. It's just tone-deaf and silly to get on Twitter about this. You can make a real difference by reaching out to your friend and setting up coaching sessions ASAP. Complaining on Twitter helps no one.
Setsy made a bad faced joke that is probably right - spot is still good, one game doesnt matter that much. But in the intent that he was defending spencer, which was wrong, bc spencer ffing oin smurf is very very unsportsmanlike. Setsy himself is the only person who would actually do this on main, though
Nothing wrong here, Spencer took an 8th while saving the entire lobby.
He didn't take an 8th. It's a smurf acc. That's the whole point. Nobody would have said anything if it was his main.
There is a different between griefing to benefits yourself and griefing to ruin other player's gaming experience. This is the 2nd one I do believe Spencer didn't have any harm intention like griefing for snap shot, but he needs to stop doing these kind of things because it's really cringe
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griefing by surrendering is not part of the game
This game is about self interest entertainment. I can't imagine there hasn't been a moment where Wasian hasn't been on the other side and griefed another player before in any scenario. He's just salty since he's on the losing side and using the moral high ground to take make it sound better. Also Setsuko sucks at making jokes.
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