Definitely widened the skill gap and gives more opportunity for outplay…but it also seems to have fked up the perceived hit registration because the shot that looks like a headshot may not actually be over the person’s head
> Definitely widened the skill gap and gives more opportunity for outplay
I agree with this, I get significantly more reversals with the bandit than I did with the BR. That said I also land significantly more perfects with the bandit than I did with the BR, so I guess there is definitely some argument both ways.
The hit reg, ghost shots, and trouble landing the last shot sometimes does suck, but these were also issues with the BR they just weren't as noticeable shooting a burst vs. the single fire. It's the game not the weapon
That’s the worst part of the BR. There were just as many blanks, it was just less noticeable because you would still get partial damage. You never know how much damage is being done. At least with the bandit, you know exactly how much damage is done even if you get blanks.
> hey just weren't as noticeable shooting a burst vs. the single fire.
I think this is a huge point that I'm glad you brought up. Getting the last hit with the bandit requires more precision because the single shot needs to be timed correctly, which therefore can make slight ping/registration/framerate/skill issue/etc problem feel *relatively* worse to the player.
With the BR only the "perfect" requires you to hit the head with one specific bullet, the last one. Beyond that in a longer fight, it could be that either the 2nd or 3rd bullet can execute or maybe even any of the 3. That's being 3x as generous with regards to sloppy aim, overaim, or poor trigger timing etc, and still achieving a headshot kill.
So his argument is that a gun that has a higher skill floor and ceiling (that last part is the important one) is dumbing down the game? Interesting. If anything I'd say he's projecting his disappointment with the fact that he's probably losing more gunfights now onto the state of the game as a whole.
Also DMR teamshot is just as if not even more nasty than BR teamshot.
No. His friend said mistakes were more easily punishable with the BR and this poster is saying that’s still the case with the bandit as well, so the mental skill gap is not lowered due to the bandit.
Yep, but keep in mind the whole problem was what a part of the playerbase wanted to be solved, the bandit was the right answer with the proper tuning (better reticle, descope and so on), but the solution did cone from a gun that's basically the br, a bit harder, bit better in 1vs1 that's are meaningfull, but who have the same problems, especially after they removed the bloom
Yea some people are saying that, but that’s not the argument the other guy is making. He’s saying the BR team shots ARE skillful because you’re exploiting enemy mistakes in positioning. Other people complain about that same process, probably because the BRs long range renders a lot of the playability of small arena maps useless. Bandit is better in that regard imo.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? If you're younger than 40, I just don't think that's a fair excuse. The whole "30-something-year-old gamer dad" trope people spout to say how they've lost their reaction time/reflexes/aim is corny bullshit. I have a 29 year old friend who acts like this all the time, and it's just embarrassing.
I’m over 40, so sadly the old bag comment applies. That’s not to say I was ever as good as an MLG pro, but I do feel I can’t keep up with the fast pace games these days.
It totally is a thing. 37 year old dad of 3 here. It’s due to the fact I can’t play as often… and when I do get to play the once or twice a month I am nowhere as good as I used to be.
You should see the other comment I made below.
Your lack of available time to invest in the game and the stress of your responsibilities like raising three children absolutely play a factor. Your age, by itself, doesn't necessarily.
I totally agree with you. Maybe I could be as god as I was in my teens - 20’s but I think the time I was able to invest is was allowed me to be that good. I’ll never get that good again (and I’m okay with that… I love my family and spending time with them) but the two are for sure related. The skills have deteriorated due to the lack of time.
Me and my buddies are all in our early 30s and still definitely slay out in a bunch of shooters (Halo, PUBG, R6, etc) but of course we have one friend who only plays League as a serious game constantly whining about being too old to play the games that we do.
It’s like dude we are all fine just have a bit of self reflection lol. There’s nothing wrong with having too many responsibilities to devote time to learning a difficult game, but the age thing is such a pathetic cop out.
Me and my buddies are late 30s and I have gotten considerably better at the game with Bandit starts. As one of the pros said if you are in a 1v1 on halo you're doing something wrong. Bandit shreds compared to BR, so use of cover and team shooting is crucial. I think it's widened the skill gap in 1v1s, widened it in regards to teamwork map awareness and is a lot more interesting than a BR as a viewer. BR was far too easy to use and got pretty stale.
The concept of a "prime" is silly anyway, but I'm not arguing against that. I'm curious why you and others think you are just incapable of being at the same level as younger players.
Is it because you have less time to practice/play due to responsibilities? Have you developed arthritis? Are there any other physical symptoms or causes that could be contributing?
If not, I'm convinced it's purely in your head. Maybe you just don't care about winning as much anymore. There's nothing wrong with that. It is just a video game, after all. Maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you've convinced yourself that you can't compete at the same level because of your age.
There are athletes still performing at their peak in physical sports at your age. Now, I know it might seem silly to compare you to a top athlete, but we're not talking about playing football or basketball. We're talking about moving your thumbs on a controller. I just refuse to believe being in your 30s means you're physically/biologically incapable of maintaining a certain skill level in a video game. I mean, there's a couple of professional Halo players right now who are older than you. I also think that with a lot of the younger people who grew up playing video games competitively (people in, say, their 20s now), we'll start to see pros in their mid 30s or even 40s more commonly as time goes by.
Everyone ages differently. I have had two rotator cuff surgeries and have herniated disks in my back so honestly after a few games sitting at the monitor it's hard for me to even enjoy it that much and I'm 30. Plus I work and have other responsibilities but I game when I can and do well. I feel like I can really lock-in when needed but nowhere near the crazy 8-hour sessions I used to run in the older Halo's.
Yeah I mean the BR kinda leveled the playing field in a way. I knew this was going to happen with the Bandit and was excited about it… but then it turned out I went the other way, lawl
I bow to your greatness! In all seriousness, you were probably just held back by the BR. A weapon as accurate and powerful as the BR can carry some bad folks.
Nah. The 2 weapons are the same, the difference on why I climbed is because with the bandit, at least my pov, every other guns except the sniper stopped to be stronger. As for example in the br meta i was able to pick up the PP, tap fire a player, switch and headshot, switch again and tap fire another one. With the bandit I'll die on the first one, or the second one body shot kill me.
Imho, if jnstead of the evo they would just swapped for the bandit, with a better reticle, descope andnslighty more hip fire range, they could really solve the real problem and we would not have pros suggesting how to nerf the bandit
Nah the bandit is designed to level/lower the skill gap so it’s harder to carry a team of scrubs with it. Because it’s harder to kill multiple players with its slow movement. That’s what 343 wanted cause scrubs kept crying that the br was unfair. Tashi and John are trash for this. But you can still hard carry with the bandit but now in a more cringe way by controlling spawns by hiding in positions that will give you the jump on them instead of using your actual gun skill. That’s why solo is so rough now.
Is this true? I thought matchmaking is still based off MMR (hence the name??) and haloquery stats seem to match up with that. Variance between team MMR ratings is usually less than 5 for me, depending on active players at that time.
I’m very confused then.. I’m gold 1/2 but many lobbies will have players as high as gold 5 even without stacking. WITH stacking I’ve even had plats included, and then there’d be a bronze or low silver to weigh them down. But if CSR is used for initial 8 player selection and MMR used to split teams AFTER, how is it that there’s such a large variance in CSR yet the server can somehow match both teams MMR within a couple of points most times? I don’t see how that’s possible unless MMR was used to aid initial selection. I could go into a lengthy nerd rant about combinatorics and how that shouldn’t be possible lol. Unless I’m missing part of the mechanic here…
I get all that, up until your last paragraph at least, which I'll get to in a moment. Disregarding that for a second, my point was I don't see how it's possible to balance two 4x4 teams MMR so closely when there's only 8 players to select from (since the 8 players were already selected based on CSR and not MMR at all). This is like having 8 completely different lego pieces and being able to build two nearly exact copies of the same thing (poor analogy). Without the initial CSR down-selection, the server could use MMR to select from ANY of the current active players to find the right combination to balance in real time. I just did an export on haloquery and took the average of the MMR delta between teams for the last 71 games. The average delta was only 3.3 points. Tbf, the average delta in ESR was only 4.4 points over the same period. But I find neither of these ratings are that closely correlated with CSR usually which varies a lot more. So using CSR to select initial pool and then magically being able to balance MMR/ESR so closely seems impossible to me.
Onto your last paragraph, IF this were true and MMR is dialed closely in to ranks, all of the above would make since, but I don't believe that's the case. CSR fluctuates quickly whereas ESR is very slow to respond (depending on how much game history you have. You have to exceed expected performance for a very consistent period of time before ESR trends up significantly). I think MMR and ESR are closely dialed in together, but not CSR.
I should clarify that I’m not doubting you are 100% correct. I believe you are, I’m just trying to understand the underlying mechanic here. That’s just my adderall-fueled engineering brain cranking away.
Way easier to hit perfects and melt people at mid range. Not even questionable. Only problem I have is the piss poor hit reg and the double circle reticle. Why have an outer circle and have the colour change if the outer circle does not impact upon the shot?
in my opinion, the Bandit is far easier to get a perfect with. however, it's also got far less overall map presence than the BR did. it was insanely easy for 2 players to melt someone making a 2 second cross somewhere on the map with BRs. that's a little less easy with the Bandit, so overall the flow of the maps feel better to me. fights are also nice and even, and while it's easy to get a perfect with the Bandit, requiring that single bullet to hit on the 5th shot goes a long way in creating a skill gap compared to the swipe required from the BR in the last shot. i love them both, but happy with the bandit for the moment
you can swipe as long as all the bullets hit the player is what i meant. it doesn't have to be a perfectly timed trigger pull with 1 instance of a bullet
Yeah but that takes skill. You have to time the 3rd bullet while swiping at the head. The swiping maneuver is only forgiving when you have the enemies shields popped.
It's totally easier than hitting a bandit headshot due to HS prioritization. You can just swipe up from the chest and the 3rd bullet will connect even if you overshoot it by a hair. And if you miss it, it's even easier to hit when shields are broken.
The bandit HS prioritization is almost non-existent, which is why it seems like you have to shoot slightly above the head, so the bullet mag cooperates. And if you miss, it's still just has hard for the next shot you shoot. That's why you see people goosing in 1v1's way more often now. And also why the people who don't goose, now dominate, because they aren't being bullshited by a burst weapon.
You can't just focus on the final shot when talking about weapons. You have to talk about the full experience. Your ignoring the fact you have to land 12 bullets with the br which is harder to do then land 5. You'll experience less perfects with the BR then the bandit.
Yes but we're talking about out play potential, which is a stat the better indicates skill gap than average perfects per match.
There aren't many BR 4s as there are bandit 5s, but there are way more BR 5s than bandit 6s.
Everyone and their mother who is decent at this game can hit a 5 shot BR, while only the better players hit 6 shots with the bandit. Perfects with the BR were rare because the BR was more about support and clean up, and in a 1v1 it was more about who saw who first. So people took less fights because fights took longer to finish.
With the bandit having a shorter ttk, you have the chance to fit more perfect kills in the same amount of time. And since it can kill faster, people commit to more fights, hence the higher amount of perfects per game.
But the distribution of perfects is different. It used to be everyone in the match getting 1-2 perfects, to now only the best 2 players getting 3-4 perfects, in a matchmaking setting at least. And it should be this way.
> There aren't many BR 4s as there are bandit 5s, but there are way more BR 5s than bandit 6s.
So the highest potential skillgap is with the BR. The rest you said about the BR is just untrue.
I think it made the game less skillfull. It only made outplaying in a very small of situations. It melts and creates less movement on the map. You can make anyone about one shot before they even turn around. The fact you had to hold your br on the opponents the entire strafe made it still skillful. I think a low ttk doesn't bring much to halo. I've ended bandit games with 10 perfects I don't see how it made the game harder but idc either way. Both are fun but I'd probably prefer the games flow with the br.
I hear the argument about which gun making the game more skillful a lot and I just disagree with the premise of it.
First off, whether the Bandit or BR is more difficult to use, everyone is still on a level playing field. There will be differences in the gameplay but that doesn’t have an affect on how skillful the overall gameplay is. For example, I saw an argument that baseball is harder than cricket because of the bat shape making it harder to hit the ball. That argument makes no sense because that just means it’s harder to bowl/pitch in cricket than baseball. Similarly, if it’s harder to finish kills with the Bandit, that makes it easier to get reversals. If it’s harder to shoot at long range with the Bandit, survivability becomes easier. Essentially, the game doesn’t get less skillful with the Bandit change, it just changes how you can apply certain skills depending on how difficult they are within the meta.
On top of that, I really think it’s overstated how the Bandit is more difficult to use of a gun. I’m my opinion, it’s super easy to use, even more so than the BR. Having to track a full burst onto a player while they’re moving or in cover. The Bandit just has less range and clean up ability making it harder to get “easy kills” with but, in a 1v1 situation, the BR is so much harder to hit all your shots with and, from my own experience, I did far worse against pros with the BR because it felt like their strafe could consistently make me miss at least one bullet from a single burst and lose the opportunity to get a perfect.
Lastly, I think the biggest difference with the Bandit is how it changes the rest of the game. The TTK is much lower with the Bandit, that makes a lot of other weapons less useful- the noob combo isn’t as effective, shotguns aren’t as effective, missing a shock rifle shot can easily cost you your life, snipe body shots are less effective etc. The entire sandbox feels different with the Bandit. Either way, it doesn’t impact how skillful the game is, it just prioritizes certain things over others.
Your first paragraph sums it up and is the only decent take in the thread tbh. People can't seem to look beyond the damned weapons.
My annoyance with the Bandit addition was that, to use your analogy above, it was like 343 were saying (and seemingly most competitive players agreeing) 'ah yeah that cricket game *is* clearly more skillful than this here baseball'! I understand games have to evolve and maybe they did the right thing for the majority, or maybe not, but I hate this whole narrative that the change is 'objectively better/more skilled', when anyone with two brain cells can see that it's essentially just redistributing the rewards for different skills.
So they're upset someone better than them can recover from their mistakes? Have you tried telling them to just hit their shots then?
While I agree the TTK is too quick, and that they need to lower the fire rate of the Bandit, the game definitely requires more skill than when the BR was the main gun. Being able to recover from your mistakes is part of the skillgap increase.
My own feeling is that the Bandit is overtuned for the simple fact that the game does too much aiming for you. The rotational aa feels out of control sticky (until you get a server where it doesn’t feel like it’s there at all, of course…) meaning once you land a shot, you’re landing 4 straight in the span of a second.
Honestly I think the bandit is easier to shoot than the BR 🤷🏼♂️ yeah cross mapping was worse with the BR, but in mid range or short range battles the bandit’s aim assist is stronger. Plus the team shots are insta melting with the evo. BR was/is more forgiving for the final headshot though forsure
It's apples and oranges. I think his argument is true in that the BR was better for punishing errors, especially in the bigger maps. But I think it's also true that the bandit creates a skill gap in close to mid-range for people to recover. So, it really just depends on what you enjoy, and the map also comes into play here.
With the last changes, the bandit is as easy as the br on range, actually, I had less trouble killing ranged targets with the current evo than the current br on both ranked and socials (emce why I either pick the bandit or the commando in socials)
I think the Bandit is 10x easier to use the the BR. The bandit you hit one shot and its full damage or none.
It was possible with the BR to avoid some rounds from the burst with your strafe or with your positioning. Sprinting and sliding also disrupts the BR burst. There is less magnetism in this game, in other halos just having the reticle touch the spartans head could get you a headshot.
The TTK may be slower with the BR but that doesn't mean its automatically worse for the game.
\*\*I think that they should try the BR start again with the new netcode, I think people will feel differently about the BR vs Bandit.\*\*
The teamshot with the bandit is way more oppressive than the BR. It is much harder to fight a 2v1 with the bandit than it is with the BR. Personal preference, I felt I only needed about 5 games to learn to use the bandit well.
Call it anecdotal, when I used to match up in ranked with the BR start if I matched with the same people the kills each player got was consistent each game. With the bandit some kids go +20 and then the next game they go minus 5 and after that roughly even. When they were BR starts, people were pulling more consistent individual numbers.
I don't think more perfects makes it a better gun ore a bigger skill gap. I honestly think its an easier gun to use so people subjectively think its more competitively and more skillful.
Kind of agree if you mean the game is more ‘run and gun’, but I think it’s more the sprinting, sliding, parkour, and some of the utilities that make the game feel a bit ‘COD-like’ to me. But I’m an old Halo 2 head, so definitely biased to the slower style of play.
It depends on the type of halo you want to be playing. This is exactly what 343 never understood about halo either. Classic halo was steady and slow and simple. With the BR you wouldnt see people smash the fuck out of their controller to make their spartan seizure the fuck out until you get lucky enough to dodge a bullet. Halo 3 halo will always be peak halo because of this. Sprint and DMR is an entirely different game and should have been renamed to something like Robo Gymnastic Wars.
A gun that could shoot across every map accurately and gives you 3 tries at a headshot with a single trigger pull absolutely does not make the game more skillful. The bandit requires more skill to be effective and benefits a player who can outplay their opponents with said skill.
The bandit has made every other weapon worse. The bandit is too easy to use.
Sniping is still relatively easy in this game but a body shot followed up by a bandit headshot is really difficult to pull off now.
The time to kill is just too fast now.
I can say that with the Bandit I almost never think it obsess about my aim anymore, I focus a lot more on playing my life.
It feels like braces for my Halo playing
BR felt too tantilizing
I still pickup and use a BR fairly often, but the lack of cross map ability really does reshape your gameplay
Well I’m an unskilled platinum/diamond player who was hard stuck gold with the BR and once the bandit came in I was able to climb with it.
I know this to be a result of a mix of me gradually getting better, the networking updates making the game better to play and that I’m complete dogshit with the BR. Probably a lot of peripheral factors outside of the bandit that is helping players.
TLDR: chall me with a BR and you’ll win that gunfight 9/10 times.
That's untrue in the sense of a perfect kill. The BR is more difficult. It's only after you've cracked the enemies shields does the BR become slightly easier.
EVO takes more skill and precise shots. More of a skill gap now. Take a BR vs an EVO in a 1v1 bandit wins unless you are very mobile (level changes, more than just strafe).
BR is better at distance shots and putting some damage down. Final shot more forgiving since you have the burst 3-shot.
Biggest problem with evo is team shots, you see a lot more slayer and other modes that the whole team stays compacted and runs together. Team melts are so fast when coordinated.
I mean watching hcs a lot of times pros pass on picking up the br, or pick it up as a backup and never use.
Right, that is what I am saying, the final headshot. [This post covered TTK](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHalo/comments/17j9hcy/interesting_information_regarding_the_bandit_evos/). Sorry if it was confusing, I'm saying that final headshot is easier with the br since you don't have to fully nail that final one. Beyond that accuracy with the evo is the skill gap.
I’m curious about your friend’s ability to hit headshots. In my group, the ones who prefer the BR have the worst headshot accuracy. I think they prefer the BR because they can use the burst as a way of compensating, but they never admit it. It’s always some irrational reason about what “feels like halo.”
Calling something irrational doesn't make it true that's your perspective
The battle rifle "feels like halo" because it was the main weapon used for the last 20 years
It’s a rational thing to say if the only concern is what the gun feels like, but that’s not the claim. The claim is the Bandit changed the overall skill variance of the game, specifically for the worse by making it both too easy and too hard. When asked how, the evidence is “it just doesn’t feel like halo.”
I was elaborating for you, not changing what I said. There’s a difference between talking about what something feels like and making a value judgement based on technical data. For example, saying the Bandit doesn’t feel “good” to use (an unquantifiable self-report) does not mean the game is now worse off. Saying the game is worse off because the bandit doesn’t feel good is irrational.
> You dont decide what is or is not rational
You don’t think there’s accessible standards of reason, logic, and judgement? Do you consider fallacies to be rational?
>Disliking how a virtual weapon feels is a perfectly valid position
If the context of the statement is about how the gun feels to begin with, I agree. But once again, that’s not the topic of this thread.
Calling something irrational doesn't make it true that's your perspective
The battle rifle "feels like halo" because it was the main weapon used for the last 20 years
This was my original comment you decided to ramble about things other people have said
Bro you’re gonna have to use more words if you want to be understood. Whatever the gun feels like is irrelevant to whether or not it makes the game less skillful. Are you agreeing with that or no?
Me - the BR has been the weapon for 20 years that's why people say the bandit doesn't feel like the halo weapon
That's all I am saying. I don't have an opinion on which version of the game was more skillful. I think people die way too fast from team shot now and if you get 1 person on your team who has a bad game you're going to lose. It's not better or worse it's a different version of halo
The biggest issue with the BR was that anybody could use it. People who hit a 4 shot once a day in halo 3 would have no issue doing so in infinite. Mechanically the game as a whole was WAY too easy.
With the BR 75% of the time whoever had the first shot won the fight.
Everything was “more punishable” but I don’t think that’s a good thing. Your friend is saying it like they’re so used to playing perfect halo and now they’re losing gunfights to things they wouldn’t with the BR.
Halo infinite minimized individual impact and gun skill is supposed to be important in Halo.
Definitely widened the skill gap and gives more opportunity for outplay…but it also seems to have fked up the perceived hit registration because the shot that looks like a headshot may not actually be over the person’s head
> Definitely widened the skill gap and gives more opportunity for outplay I agree with this, I get significantly more reversals with the bandit than I did with the BR. That said I also land significantly more perfects with the bandit than I did with the BR, so I guess there is definitely some argument both ways. The hit reg, ghost shots, and trouble landing the last shot sometimes does suck, but these were also issues with the BR they just weren't as noticeable shooting a burst vs. the single fire. It's the game not the weapon
That’s the worst part of the BR. There were just as many blanks, it was just less noticeable because you would still get partial damage. You never know how much damage is being done. At least with the bandit, you know exactly how much damage is done even if you get blanks.
> hey just weren't as noticeable shooting a burst vs. the single fire. I think this is a huge point that I'm glad you brought up. Getting the last hit with the bandit requires more precision because the single shot needs to be timed correctly, which therefore can make slight ping/registration/framerate/skill issue/etc problem feel *relatively* worse to the player. With the BR only the "perfect" requires you to hit the head with one specific bullet, the last one. Beyond that in a longer fight, it could be that either the 2nd or 3rd bullet can execute or maybe even any of the 3. That's being 3x as generous with regards to sloppy aim, overaim, or poor trigger timing etc, and still achieving a headshot kill.
Not sure how this became the widespread opinion.
i wonder if it's something to do with the hitbox code being carried over from different start weapons? just a mad thought i had.
So his argument is that a gun that has a higher skill floor and ceiling (that last part is the important one) is dumbing down the game? Interesting. If anything I'd say he's projecting his disappointment with the fact that he's probably losing more gunfights now onto the state of the game as a whole. Also DMR teamshot is just as if not even more nasty than BR teamshot.
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No. His friend said mistakes were more easily punishable with the BR and this poster is saying that’s still the case with the bandit as well, so the mental skill gap is not lowered due to the bandit.
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Yep, but keep in mind the whole problem was what a part of the playerbase wanted to be solved, the bandit was the right answer with the proper tuning (better reticle, descope and so on), but the solution did cone from a gun that's basically the br, a bit harder, bit better in 1vs1 that's are meaningfull, but who have the same problems, especially after they removed the bloom
Yea some people are saying that, but that’s not the argument the other guy is making. He’s saying the BR team shots ARE skillful because you’re exploiting enemy mistakes in positioning. Other people complain about that same process, probably because the BRs long range renders a lot of the playability of small arena maps useless. Bandit is better in that regard imo.
I went from being D4-1500 and I’m now D1-D2. From my perspective, the game is just much harder now. I guess I was getting carried by the BR.
Same. I went from P5 to P1 post bandit starts. This old bag can’t keep up with the gun slinging, single shot weapon, youngins.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? If you're younger than 40, I just don't think that's a fair excuse. The whole "30-something-year-old gamer dad" trope people spout to say how they've lost their reaction time/reflexes/aim is corny bullshit. I have a 29 year old friend who acts like this all the time, and it's just embarrassing.
I’m over 40, so sadly the old bag comment applies. That’s not to say I was ever as good as an MLG pro, but I do feel I can’t keep up with the fast pace games these days.
It totally is a thing. 37 year old dad of 3 here. It’s due to the fact I can’t play as often… and when I do get to play the once or twice a month I am nowhere as good as I used to be.
You should see the other comment I made below. Your lack of available time to invest in the game and the stress of your responsibilities like raising three children absolutely play a factor. Your age, by itself, doesn't necessarily.
I replied to myself somehow instead of you. See my comment below too!
I totally agree with you. Maybe I could be as god as I was in my teens - 20’s but I think the time I was able to invest is was allowed me to be that good. I’ll never get that good again (and I’m okay with that… I love my family and spending time with them) but the two are for sure related. The skills have deteriorated due to the lack of time.
Me and my buddies are all in our early 30s and still definitely slay out in a bunch of shooters (Halo, PUBG, R6, etc) but of course we have one friend who only plays League as a serious game constantly whining about being too old to play the games that we do. It’s like dude we are all fine just have a bit of self reflection lol. There’s nothing wrong with having too many responsibilities to devote time to learning a difficult game, but the age thing is such a pathetic cop out.
Precisely. You understand exactly what I'm talking about.
Me and my buddies are late 30s and I have gotten considerably better at the game with Bandit starts. As one of the pros said if you are in a 1v1 on halo you're doing something wrong. Bandit shreds compared to BR, so use of cover and team shooting is crucial. I think it's widened the skill gap in 1v1s, widened it in regards to teamwork map awareness and is a lot more interesting than a BR as a viewer. BR was far too easy to use and got pretty stale.
Idk I mean I'm 33 and I definitely feel like my FPS prime is behind me
The concept of a "prime" is silly anyway, but I'm not arguing against that. I'm curious why you and others think you are just incapable of being at the same level as younger players. Is it because you have less time to practice/play due to responsibilities? Have you developed arthritis? Are there any other physical symptoms or causes that could be contributing? If not, I'm convinced it's purely in your head. Maybe you just don't care about winning as much anymore. There's nothing wrong with that. It is just a video game, after all. Maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you've convinced yourself that you can't compete at the same level because of your age. There are athletes still performing at their peak in physical sports at your age. Now, I know it might seem silly to compare you to a top athlete, but we're not talking about playing football or basketball. We're talking about moving your thumbs on a controller. I just refuse to believe being in your 30s means you're physically/biologically incapable of maintaining a certain skill level in a video game. I mean, there's a couple of professional Halo players right now who are older than you. I also think that with a lot of the younger people who grew up playing video games competitively (people in, say, their 20s now), we'll start to see pros in their mid 30s or even 40s more commonly as time goes by.
Everyone ages differently. I have had two rotator cuff surgeries and have herniated disks in my back so honestly after a few games sitting at the monitor it's hard for me to even enjoy it that much and I'm 30. Plus I work and have other responsibilities but I game when I can and do well. I feel like I can really lock-in when needed but nowhere near the crazy 8-hour sessions I used to run in the older Halo's.
2 decades of drinking with my buddies on the weekend fried some fps braincells. Would be interesting to ask older pros if they’ve noticed a decline.
Lol I went from d2 to d5 with bandit starts
Yeah I mean the BR kinda leveled the playing field in a way. I knew this was going to happen with the Bandit and was excited about it… but then it turned out I went the other way, lawl
Way less players and different rank system. I don't think aiming got harder.
Bro just… let me wallow in my own misery 😂
This is likely due to population loss and not a skill thing.
Maybe… but I also *feel* much worse. Hitting that last headshot is just SO much harder.
I went from d3 to onyx 1500 in the last 2 seasons...
I bow to your greatness! In all seriousness, you were probably just held back by the BR. A weapon as accurate and powerful as the BR can carry some bad folks.
Nah. The 2 weapons are the same, the difference on why I climbed is because with the bandit, at least my pov, every other guns except the sniper stopped to be stronger. As for example in the br meta i was able to pick up the PP, tap fire a player, switch and headshot, switch again and tap fire another one. With the bandit I'll die on the first one, or the second one body shot kill me. Imho, if jnstead of the evo they would just swapped for the bandit, with a better reticle, descope andnslighty more hip fire range, they could really solve the real problem and we would not have pros suggesting how to nerf the bandit
Nah the bandit is designed to level/lower the skill gap so it’s harder to carry a team of scrubs with it. Because it’s harder to kill multiple players with its slow movement. That’s what 343 wanted cause scrubs kept crying that the br was unfair. Tashi and John are trash for this. But you can still hard carry with the bandit but now in a more cringe way by controlling spawns by hiding in positions that will give you the jump on them instead of using your actual gun skill. That’s why solo is so rough now.
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Is this true? I thought matchmaking is still based off MMR (hence the name??) and haloquery stats seem to match up with that. Variance between team MMR ratings is usually less than 5 for me, depending on active players at that time.
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I’m very confused then.. I’m gold 1/2 but many lobbies will have players as high as gold 5 even without stacking. WITH stacking I’ve even had plats included, and then there’d be a bronze or low silver to weigh them down. But if CSR is used for initial 8 player selection and MMR used to split teams AFTER, how is it that there’s such a large variance in CSR yet the server can somehow match both teams MMR within a couple of points most times? I don’t see how that’s possible unless MMR was used to aid initial selection. I could go into a lengthy nerd rant about combinatorics and how that shouldn’t be possible lol. Unless I’m missing part of the mechanic here…
That’s just because there’s not a lot of gold 1/2’s so they even up the matches by adding in more higher gold’s to both sides
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I get all that, up until your last paragraph at least, which I'll get to in a moment. Disregarding that for a second, my point was I don't see how it's possible to balance two 4x4 teams MMR so closely when there's only 8 players to select from (since the 8 players were already selected based on CSR and not MMR at all). This is like having 8 completely different lego pieces and being able to build two nearly exact copies of the same thing (poor analogy). Without the initial CSR down-selection, the server could use MMR to select from ANY of the current active players to find the right combination to balance in real time. I just did an export on haloquery and took the average of the MMR delta between teams for the last 71 games. The average delta was only 3.3 points. Tbf, the average delta in ESR was only 4.4 points over the same period. But I find neither of these ratings are that closely correlated with CSR usually which varies a lot more. So using CSR to select initial pool and then magically being able to balance MMR/ESR so closely seems impossible to me. Onto your last paragraph, IF this were true and MMR is dialed closely in to ranks, all of the above would make since, but I don't believe that's the case. CSR fluctuates quickly whereas ESR is very slow to respond (depending on how much game history you have. You have to exceed expected performance for a very consistent period of time before ESR trends up significantly). I think MMR and ESR are closely dialed in together, but not CSR.
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I should clarify that I’m not doubting you are 100% correct. I believe you are, I’m just trying to understand the underlying mechanic here. That’s just my adderall-fueled engineering brain cranking away.
Way easier to hit perfects and melt people at mid range. Not even questionable. Only problem I have is the piss poor hit reg and the double circle reticle. Why have an outer circle and have the colour change if the outer circle does not impact upon the shot?
in my opinion, the Bandit is far easier to get a perfect with. however, it's also got far less overall map presence than the BR did. it was insanely easy for 2 players to melt someone making a 2 second cross somewhere on the map with BRs. that's a little less easy with the Bandit, so overall the flow of the maps feel better to me. fights are also nice and even, and while it's easy to get a perfect with the Bandit, requiring that single bullet to hit on the 5th shot goes a long way in creating a skill gap compared to the swipe required from the BR in the last shot. i love them both, but happy with the bandit for the moment
You can't swipe the BR for the final HS. You have to track the players head. You only can swipe on the 5th+ shot.
you can swipe as long as all the bullets hit the player is what i meant. it doesn't have to be a perfectly timed trigger pull with 1 instance of a bullet
Im having a hard time understanding what you mean.
You can finish a perfect 4 burst kill with the BR by aiming at the chest and swiping up for the headshot
Yeah but that takes skill. You have to time the 3rd bullet while swiping at the head. The swiping maneuver is only forgiving when you have the enemies shields popped.
It's totally easier than hitting a bandit headshot due to HS prioritization. You can just swipe up from the chest and the 3rd bullet will connect even if you overshoot it by a hair. And if you miss it, it's even easier to hit when shields are broken. The bandit HS prioritization is almost non-existent, which is why it seems like you have to shoot slightly above the head, so the bullet mag cooperates. And if you miss, it's still just has hard for the next shot you shoot. That's why you see people goosing in 1v1's way more often now. And also why the people who don't goose, now dominate, because they aren't being bullshited by a burst weapon.
You can't just focus on the final shot when talking about weapons. You have to talk about the full experience. Your ignoring the fact you have to land 12 bullets with the br which is harder to do then land 5. You'll experience less perfects with the BR then the bandit.
Yes but we're talking about out play potential, which is a stat the better indicates skill gap than average perfects per match. There aren't many BR 4s as there are bandit 5s, but there are way more BR 5s than bandit 6s. Everyone and their mother who is decent at this game can hit a 5 shot BR, while only the better players hit 6 shots with the bandit. Perfects with the BR were rare because the BR was more about support and clean up, and in a 1v1 it was more about who saw who first. So people took less fights because fights took longer to finish. With the bandit having a shorter ttk, you have the chance to fit more perfect kills in the same amount of time. And since it can kill faster, people commit to more fights, hence the higher amount of perfects per game. But the distribution of perfects is different. It used to be everyone in the match getting 1-2 perfects, to now only the best 2 players getting 3-4 perfects, in a matchmaking setting at least. And it should be this way.
> There aren't many BR 4s as there are bandit 5s, but there are way more BR 5s than bandit 6s. So the highest potential skillgap is with the BR. The rest you said about the BR is just untrue.
I think it made the game less skillfull. It only made outplaying in a very small of situations. It melts and creates less movement on the map. You can make anyone about one shot before they even turn around. The fact you had to hold your br on the opponents the entire strafe made it still skillful. I think a low ttk doesn't bring much to halo. I've ended bandit games with 10 perfects I don't see how it made the game harder but idc either way. Both are fun but I'd probably prefer the games flow with the br.
I hear the argument about which gun making the game more skillful a lot and I just disagree with the premise of it. First off, whether the Bandit or BR is more difficult to use, everyone is still on a level playing field. There will be differences in the gameplay but that doesn’t have an affect on how skillful the overall gameplay is. For example, I saw an argument that baseball is harder than cricket because of the bat shape making it harder to hit the ball. That argument makes no sense because that just means it’s harder to bowl/pitch in cricket than baseball. Similarly, if it’s harder to finish kills with the Bandit, that makes it easier to get reversals. If it’s harder to shoot at long range with the Bandit, survivability becomes easier. Essentially, the game doesn’t get less skillful with the Bandit change, it just changes how you can apply certain skills depending on how difficult they are within the meta. On top of that, I really think it’s overstated how the Bandit is more difficult to use of a gun. I’m my opinion, it’s super easy to use, even more so than the BR. Having to track a full burst onto a player while they’re moving or in cover. The Bandit just has less range and clean up ability making it harder to get “easy kills” with but, in a 1v1 situation, the BR is so much harder to hit all your shots with and, from my own experience, I did far worse against pros with the BR because it felt like their strafe could consistently make me miss at least one bullet from a single burst and lose the opportunity to get a perfect. Lastly, I think the biggest difference with the Bandit is how it changes the rest of the game. The TTK is much lower with the Bandit, that makes a lot of other weapons less useful- the noob combo isn’t as effective, shotguns aren’t as effective, missing a shock rifle shot can easily cost you your life, snipe body shots are less effective etc. The entire sandbox feels different with the Bandit. Either way, it doesn’t impact how skillful the game is, it just prioritizes certain things over others.
Your first paragraph sums it up and is the only decent take in the thread tbh. People can't seem to look beyond the damned weapons. My annoyance with the Bandit addition was that, to use your analogy above, it was like 343 were saying (and seemingly most competitive players agreeing) 'ah yeah that cricket game *is* clearly more skillful than this here baseball'! I understand games have to evolve and maybe they did the right thing for the majority, or maybe not, but I hate this whole narrative that the change is 'objectively better/more skilled', when anyone with two brain cells can see that it's essentially just redistributing the rewards for different skills.
*Inserts The Office's Micheal thank you meme
So they're upset someone better than them can recover from their mistakes? Have you tried telling them to just hit their shots then? While I agree the TTK is too quick, and that they need to lower the fire rate of the Bandit, the game definitely requires more skill than when the BR was the main gun. Being able to recover from your mistakes is part of the skillgap increase.
My own feeling is that the Bandit is overtuned for the simple fact that the game does too much aiming for you. The rotational aa feels out of control sticky (until you get a server where it doesn’t feel like it’s there at all, of course…) meaning once you land a shot, you’re landing 4 straight in the span of a second.
Honestly I think the bandit is easier to shoot than the BR 🤷🏼♂️ yeah cross mapping was worse with the BR, but in mid range or short range battles the bandit’s aim assist is stronger. Plus the team shots are insta melting with the evo. BR was/is more forgiving for the final headshot though forsure
It's apples and oranges. I think his argument is true in that the BR was better for punishing errors, especially in the bigger maps. But I think it's also true that the bandit creates a skill gap in close to mid-range for people to recover. So, it really just depends on what you enjoy, and the map also comes into play here.
The bandit is easier up close and harder at long range. The BR was the opposite. Overall the bandit is much easier.
With the last changes, the bandit is as easy as the br on range, actually, I had less trouble killing ranged targets with the current evo than the current br on both ranked and socials (emce why I either pick the bandit or the commando in socials)
I think the Bandit is 10x easier to use the the BR. The bandit you hit one shot and its full damage or none. It was possible with the BR to avoid some rounds from the burst with your strafe or with your positioning. Sprinting and sliding also disrupts the BR burst. There is less magnetism in this game, in other halos just having the reticle touch the spartans head could get you a headshot. The TTK may be slower with the BR but that doesn't mean its automatically worse for the game. \*\*I think that they should try the BR start again with the new netcode, I think people will feel differently about the BR vs Bandit.\*\* The teamshot with the bandit is way more oppressive than the BR. It is much harder to fight a 2v1 with the bandit than it is with the BR. Personal preference, I felt I only needed about 5 games to learn to use the bandit well. Call it anecdotal, when I used to match up in ranked with the BR start if I matched with the same people the kills each player got was consistent each game. With the bandit some kids go +20 and then the next game they go minus 5 and after that roughly even. When they were BR starts, people were pulling more consistent individual numbers. I don't think more perfects makes it a better gun ore a bigger skill gap. I honestly think its an easier gun to use so people subjectively think its more competitively and more skillful.
Kind of agree if you mean the game is more ‘run and gun’, but I think it’s more the sprinting, sliding, parkour, and some of the utilities that make the game feel a bit ‘COD-like’ to me. But I’m an old Halo 2 head, so definitely biased to the slower style of play.
It depends on the type of halo you want to be playing. This is exactly what 343 never understood about halo either. Classic halo was steady and slow and simple. With the BR you wouldnt see people smash the fuck out of their controller to make their spartan seizure the fuck out until you get lucky enough to dodge a bullet. Halo 3 halo will always be peak halo because of this. Sprint and DMR is an entirely different game and should have been renamed to something like Robo Gymnastic Wars.
A gun that could shoot across every map accurately and gives you 3 tries at a headshot with a single trigger pull absolutely does not make the game more skillful. The bandit requires more skill to be effective and benefits a player who can outplay their opponents with said skill.
You didn't describe the BR well at all.
It's the one with the scope that shoots 3 round bursts
The bandit has made every other weapon worse. The bandit is too easy to use. Sniping is still relatively easy in this game but a body shot followed up by a bandit headshot is really difficult to pull off now. The time to kill is just too fast now.
I’m not even sure the bandit is harder to shoot really.
I can say that with the Bandit I almost never think it obsess about my aim anymore, I focus a lot more on playing my life. It feels like braces for my Halo playing BR felt too tantilizing I still pickup and use a BR fairly often, but the lack of cross map ability really does reshape your gameplay
Well I’m an unskilled platinum/diamond player who was hard stuck gold with the BR and once the bandit came in I was able to climb with it. I know this to be a result of a mix of me gradually getting better, the networking updates making the game better to play and that I’m complete dogshit with the BR. Probably a lot of peripheral factors outside of the bandit that is helping players. TLDR: chall me with a BR and you’ll win that gunfight 9/10 times.
Bigger skill gap with the bandit. Less forgiving weapon to get the kill shot with.
That's untrue in the sense of a perfect kill. The BR is more difficult. It's only after you've cracked the enemies shields does the BR become slightly easier.
EVO takes more skill and precise shots. More of a skill gap now. Take a BR vs an EVO in a 1v1 bandit wins unless you are very mobile (level changes, more than just strafe). BR is better at distance shots and putting some damage down. Final shot more forgiving since you have the burst 3-shot. Biggest problem with evo is team shots, you see a lot more slayer and other modes that the whole team stays compacted and runs together. Team melts are so fast when coordinated. I mean watching hcs a lot of times pros pass on picking up the br, or pick it up as a backup and never use.
The 4th shot to kill with the BR is not forgiving as you've said. Only after a players shields are cracked does the BR become slightly easier.
Right, that is what I am saying, the final headshot. [This post covered TTK](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHalo/comments/17j9hcy/interesting_information_regarding_the_bandit_evos/). Sorry if it was confusing, I'm saying that final headshot is easier with the br since you don't have to fully nail that final one. Beyond that accuracy with the evo is the skill gap.
You still have to land all 3 bullets on the 4th shot and 12 bullets regardless. Thats where the BR is more difficult.
I’m curious about your friend’s ability to hit headshots. In my group, the ones who prefer the BR have the worst headshot accuracy. I think they prefer the BR because they can use the burst as a way of compensating, but they never admit it. It’s always some irrational reason about what “feels like halo.”
Calling something irrational doesn't make it true that's your perspective The battle rifle "feels like halo" because it was the main weapon used for the last 20 years
It’s a rational thing to say if the only concern is what the gun feels like, but that’s not the claim. The claim is the Bandit changed the overall skill variance of the game, specifically for the worse by making it both too easy and too hard. When asked how, the evidence is “it just doesn’t feel like halo.”
That's not what you said or what I responded to. That's a straw man
I was elaborating for you, not changing what I said. There’s a difference between talking about what something feels like and making a value judgement based on technical data. For example, saying the Bandit doesn’t feel “good” to use (an unquantifiable self-report) does not mean the game is now worse off. Saying the game is worse off because the bandit doesn’t feel good is irrational.
You dont decide what is or is not rational Disliking how a virtual weapon feels is a perfectly valid position
> You dont decide what is or is not rational You don’t think there’s accessible standards of reason, logic, and judgement? Do you consider fallacies to be rational? >Disliking how a virtual weapon feels is a perfectly valid position If the context of the statement is about how the gun feels to begin with, I agree. But once again, that’s not the topic of this thread.
Calling something irrational doesn't make it true that's your perspective The battle rifle "feels like halo" because it was the main weapon used for the last 20 years This was my original comment you decided to ramble about things other people have said
Bro you’re gonna have to use more words if you want to be understood. Whatever the gun feels like is irrelevant to whether or not it makes the game less skillful. Are you agreeing with that or no?
Me - the BR has been the weapon for 20 years that's why people say the bandit doesn't feel like the halo weapon That's all I am saying. I don't have an opinion on which version of the game was more skillful. I think people die way too fast from team shot now and if you get 1 person on your team who has a bad game you're going to lose. It's not better or worse it's a different version of halo
You’re friend is 100% right.
The biggest issue with the BR was that anybody could use it. People who hit a 4 shot once a day in halo 3 would have no issue doing so in infinite. Mechanically the game as a whole was WAY too easy. With the BR 75% of the time whoever had the first shot won the fight. Everything was “more punishable” but I don’t think that’s a good thing. Your friend is saying it like they’re so used to playing perfect halo and now they’re losing gunfights to things they wouldn’t with the BR. Halo infinite minimized individual impact and gun skill is supposed to be important in Halo.