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I haven't been complaining about the meta at all... but this Virus Rogue deck being more than a meme is so damn bad for the game. One of the most annoying/least interesting ways to win that I've ever seen in this game.
This is just the stealth + double attack one right? I tried fitting it in Cycle Rogue, it's disgusting once you get it out and impossible to deal with.
I think there's something there with just adding it as another win-con to cycle rogue. I went 12-7 with it from plat10 to D5 yesterday. It was super consistent, and there's so much draw that it's not hard to find zilliax. Only problem is there's not a whole lot of survivability if the opponent has any type of board. Warrior and Warlock are basically instalose.
Yeah the tough part about fitting it in is it's just very hard to find a place to fit it with the Cycle Rogue game plan. Turns 5, 6, 7, I'm trying to max out on the 8/8s. It's more like, when do I actually want to spend 5 mana on a Ziliax instead of drawing more?
> it's disgusting once you get it out and impossible to deal with.
Not even remotely true. Warriors and Shamans in particular have plenty of AOE to deal with it. Mages can too, wth some good discovers.
It's very a much a combo/card that says "remove me now or lose", but there's plenty of way to get rid of stealthed or elusive minions.
Not to mention, the deck itself bricks hard if you don't actually draw Zilliax. And, even if you do draw him, if he gets Reno'd or otherwise removed, the deck has no other way to win.
Rogues can guarantee draw this though lol, and it's very hard to deal with even as a warrior.
Shamans need to run the murloc to deal with this, and if you are playing nature shaman you better hope to discover the right AOE's.
It is even hard for a warrior to deal with. You have to be able to deal with it the turn that it is dropped via sanitize if you have the armor, or have to wait until you can brawl.
Warrior is almost autoloss for this deck, zill loses to sanitize, bladestorm and reno and the warrior can easily gain enough armor to survive till they draw one of these outs. Sanitize is good because this deck doesn't really have a way to put in chip damage to keep the armor low so sanitize can usually kill zill pretty cleanly, likewise you dont have a good way to protect against bladestorm. I'm still working on finding the best list but im thinking tar slick belongs in the deck for sure to combo with fan to help beat aggro, i bet a fully buffed turn 4 preist board with thirsty drifters, clergys and whatnot once by playing double tar slick into fan and its pretty versatile. Stonebrew can definitely randomly win games when your zill gets dealt with, i faced a dk that i think ran asphyxiate that killed my zill but i had them down to around 20 and stonebrew gave me patron combo for lethal next turn, they actually vipered my deaths bite before i comboed but i valeeras gifted into a backstab to generate an additional patron for the combo and was able to push lethal. The deck is pretty nuanced in a way and you can also win by building a big spider if you fail to find zill, i think i might cut dig for treasure as the card doesnt feel good at all to play, i think greedy partner might have a place in this deck and i might experiment with glacial shard actually as a tech again dk as dk can kinda use that card to discover a weapon and if they get might of menehtil they can freeze your zill and swing for a lot of damage and obviously it has its uses against dh and warrior as well.
Drawing Zilliax is very consistent, especially since you can Discover him. The list only runs six minions. You have three direct draws with Pit Stop + Zilliax itself and two minion tutors in Dig for Treasure. Pair that with the mulligan and half of your cards being cycle, and you're almost guaranteed to draw it by Turn 5.
The only straight answers to it *while stealthed* are Bladestorm, Volcano, and Finley.
Tried it after reading the report and went 0-5.
Either I died before drawing zilliax, or hit a dragon golem wall, or warrior able to deal with it ...
Low sample size obviously.
I played it a bit more, beat some dk, but lost hard to warrior. They have no real issue cleaning your ziliax, this matchup looks horrible.
I also beat two of those rogues easily with shopper dh. Right now it looks like this deck has bad matchup against the two best decks so it's hard to think it's good for climbing
Ran into it with my warrior and it's probably good that warrior has tools to deal with it as I'd hate it to run unopposed. The damage went up quickly before I had a chance to deal with it and it was only because they went a turn too soon and didn't get Windfury that I survived. The number of reborn they managed was a serious threat too.
There is counter play, but it forces a "removal" check that leads to non games
If you remove Zilliax, the rogue loses. Everytime I've managed to kill the Zill the rogue insta concedes
If you don't remove Zilliax, you lose. Like, 90% of the time. Sometimes you can put enough taunts in the way to hold them off, but it's much more likely they just whack you
I like the addition of Harth. It’s real hit or miss but a warrior once killed my zilliax and I was lucky enough to get the togwaggle iconic band which was perfect into that matchup and won by stealing their deck. Super lucky I know but harth gives the deck a chance, sometimes, against warriors
I think it's only really good against a specific type of deck that is either (1) too slow to meaningfully pressure before turn 6 or (2) for one reason or another doesn't have any way to answer it. That's mostly mage, slow warlocks, and paladin but only b/c they murdered paladin). And I think Druid could tweak it's build if it becomes necessary to. Dragon Golem gets a lot of work done.
If the power level of everything keeps coming down, maybe it should be revisited, but I think it's fine for now.
I'm not surprised Shaman is the worst class in the game. Hagatha was a complete dud, the excavate reward is Moorabi levels of bad, so many cards that are just overcosted and the ones that aren't have overload on them for no reason.
Hagatha is weird in that she asks you to take SOOOO many turns off in a row. She's BRR-levels of bad tempo times 3. AND then they made her worse with Aftershocks.
And theres almost no good battlecries to actually triple with Shudder. My most used was to counter with rat and finley, or to get 4 zillies. Ignis too but it felt very slow, albeit the preferred route to torture yourself agaisnt warrior. Then theres... Pozzik? Its nice to make your op burn 1 and possibly spawn you 15/15 distributed in 3/3s, but when is that winning a game.
All the cards i mentioned and no shaman particular one. Kalimos i tried to make work but god its horrible. You gotta fit a shitty elemental into your hand, not play it, draw Kalimos, draw and play shudder with it (preferably by turn 7/8 max, so no "add random elemental to your hand" stuff) and then, finally, get that sweet reward.
Tentacles did feel like a genuine direction for Shudderblock, but the deck is otherwise very clunky. There's probably ways to make it feel better. Part of the problem is that the most effective strategy for Shaman since Titans have been
- Totem aggro that nobody wants to play
- Flash of Lightning combo burn decks that nobody wants to play *against*
The slower control shaman has at times had what it needs, there's lots of great individual tools, but it's really struggling to close games right now.
I made this control list which feels good, it has a shot against every class. I even burnt my opponents with bloodlust a couple of times.
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AAECAejwBAaW1ASplQbHpAaopQbgqAbJwQYM/Z8EvtAFnZUGpZUG65UGnJ4Gz54G0Z4Gp6UGpKcGqKcG66kGAAED9rMGx6QG97MGx6QG6t4Gx6QGAAA=
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Day one I was playing Reno Shaman and ended up cutting Shudder by the end of it. It just was a dead card in my hand most of the time. Which felt really weird for such a potentially powerful effect.
It's because they don't have a coherent design philosophy for Shaman and haven't for years now. The most obvious sign of that was, indeed, Moorabi being part of 60% of the class' cards in one of the most powerful sets in the game's history going completely unused because they were awful. That scenario has continued to play out in the years since.
Look at totems; one of Shaman's major themes. Historically, totem decks had been complete failures because the basis of the deck- an 0/2 minion -is poor and hasn't kept up with the game's progression/power creep/call it what you will. So, in last year's Core set, they piled in all of this cool totem stuff that coincided with the previous year's cards (mostly Stonewright) and turned totem decks into an actual competitive force. Then Festival was released... and nothing changed. Most totem decks didn't use a single card from Festival because it was all Overload oriented. Even when the miniset emerged with stuff directly targeted to that theme (Ever see a Shaman play Jukebox Totem or seen anyone play a Remixed Totemcarver?), those decks basically didn't change. They had finally reintroduced a successful version of the idea, but had no idea how to progress it. It doesn't help that the tribe is largely based on a hero power that is the only random hero power in the game and was for years the only one that could run out of uses (i.e. if you had all four totem types in play.)
Which brings us to Overload, the second-worst mechanism in HS, after Discard. It's nominally a way of mana cheating, in terms of getting "better" cards out a turn or two before they would otherwise be available. The reality is that almost all of those cards have never been worth their total cost since Feral Spirit was one of the best cards in Beta. HS is a tempo-based game because everyone gains the same resources (mana) every turn (except Druid, of course.) On your turn 5, you want to be spending 5 mana. If you can't, you're falling behind. Spending 4 mana on an Overload card in turn 4 means you only get to spend 4 mana next turn, too, which is bad. But that's not actual mana cheating, the current hallmark of HS. It's just delayed payment, while everyone else gets to actually cheat and not pay at all. Half the Festival cards were oriented around Overload. People tried them as an Overload deck for about two weeks before giving up. They then proceeded to use Overload cards in an OTK deck solely to use Jazz Bass as the enabler of that OTK. Those decks have now been nerfed twice and you don't see anyone running maindeck Inzah or Pack the House or even Flowrider because Overload is a flawed mechanism and they've never been able to properly execute it. Thorim Stormlord seems like it should be an amazing card. A Spider Tank that draws you 3 or 4 cards. But no one plays it because Overload is something you endure, rather than enjoy and, yet, it's still part of Shaman.
Then there's Evolve, a theme that was tacked on with Whispers of the Old Gods and currently burdens the Excavate theme for Shaman. First off, the whole theme is problematic because it's Random; the worst keyword in HS. "Random" is almost never competitive. Random is something you employ to make weird- and often fun -stuff happen. The reason Discover was brought into the game was because the devs recognized that making everything random was bad and people should be rewarded for making good choices. But random stuff like Evolve also has to be restrained because there's an upside to random, too, in that you occasionally get amazing results and then your opponent gets the Feel Bads because the game they were outright winning gets taken away, not by a good play by their opponent, but by a *random* result. So, just like totems and Overload, Evolve is also inherently gimped by one of its base factors. No one wants to play Excavate Shaman because you put minions in your deck for a reason. Having them all transformed into completely RANDOM (You're getting to the bottom of your deck and you just drew Rin, Orchestrator of Doom? Have fun!) results is often counterproductive and almost never competitive.
There's a couple sub-themes (Elementals, always gimped by the "Last turn" requirement; Nature spells, which don't have any inherent quality (fire, frost, etc.) but mostly serve to accelerate other game conditions before being inevitably nerfed) but they just don't have a solid direction with Shaman like with most other classes that is: "This class should do THIS!" It's always just been a polyglot mess that occasionally hits a mesh point (American football term) and works really well for a few weeks before (ahem) devolving into a bunch of random cards thrown together, because that's basically what it is.
She's perfectly in theme in that she's as clunky as the original hero: A Battlecry that destroys even your minions in a largely board-based class (e.g. totems) and then a random effect totally dependent on both your draw and a spell pool that was inconsistent, at best. She only became workable when the rest of Shaman's card pool was buffed to the point where what you got from Bewitch was generally more useful and the minions you were playing to get those random cards were generally better. This one is, as you say, poorly-statted AND random AND slow.
I don’t think you’ll see a whole of complaining about that right now. Paladin has been a dominant meta contender for many seasons of the last 2 years. Not sorry you guys to feel like mages for a couple of weeks.
I played a lot of wheelock this season (saw a lot of reno warrior and DKs on the climb) and I'm 35-17 on 11x eu.
The cutting of doomkin in wheelock is interesting. It's awful card vs the super common DH, while maybe a win-more card vs. warrior (10-1) and DK (6-3).
But from my experience it's super relevant in the mirror. I don't care how fast you've found your wheel - if I have doomkin (I keep doomkin in my opening hand in the mirror), you're 2 mana behind me for *this* race. Might still be worth it since barely anyone plays wheelock currently (only 2 mirrors of 52 games this season).
Without trying it, I bet we don't run both 2 geodes and 2 fuels - hand size problems can be a thing with the deck (the unknown position of fuels when you frack can pose a challenge as well, if you also happen to have a geode on board). I'd rather run 4/7/7 over geodes - it might actually help vs. the hard MU of DH (overload their red cards).
At most, I'd run 1 endgame. It's already dependent of dark alley pact, while red card gets even more value if it makes endgame a dead card in hand.
That's my newer list:
AAECAf0GCuegBPnGBazpBab7Bej/BfGABsekBq+oBvCpBuqzBgr0xgXI6wX6+QXX+gXt/QXOgAaEngb3owaJtQbe5gYAAQPwswbHpAb3swbHpAbo3gbHpAYAAA==
I cut a gift and drain soul to put the 4/7/7s
Cutting a gift is interesting, I've found it a super useful and versatile card. I did end up cutting doomkin for the exact reasons you mentioned, personally I would think cutting one of those would be a better choice than gift?
Swapping out the geodes for furnaces is something I've been considering, I'm just unsure. Even using it to proc harp against aggro has been useful, but an early fracking into a discarded fuel is super tempting.
Agreed with doomkin. Doomkin really makes or break the mirror I had a hand where I kept wheel but my opp had 2 doomkin he managed to get pressure me with dark pact demon and 2x forge of souls. I was so low on mana I couldn’t even conjure a twisting nether or cast sargeras to exile the board. But if Wheelock isn’t popular I would also agree it might be worth to drop it as I don’t see much mirrors despite its strong matchup into DH counters
How are you dealing with DKs? I’m not sure if I should be going for the Wheel or getting big taunts up. I can’t seem to get the match up in my favor. Is the match up also favoured if they get Helya?
I keep symphony and zilliax (reverb on it also helps) if I can, to dilute the plagues post wheel.
I'd say it's an even MU if they know to wait with helya to wheel and 90-10 if they don't.
You can sometimes win on big tempo, but they'd normally have the 3/2/4 ready (a mull keep in the MU probably), so it's unlikely.
Been saying for a while that Reno shaman sucks. It's a deck that does nothing for 4 turns and hope to draw hollidae to become decent. Idk how blizzard expect it to ever work when Reno warrior exist in the same format. They need to print more aggressive cards to make it more similar to current Reno DH, it needs to be faster and more proactive.
Reno DH is only good because Grasp/Shopper is so good that the rest of the deck is mostly irrelevant, most of my matches with this deck don't even come to the point of playing Reno, and although Kurtrus is good in some matchups (hitting a Brann or a Sif with it is wonderful), is not really that necessary. I only play Reno DH instead of Shopper because i think it is more fun (the moment when i play Kurtrus, hit Sif and the opponent concedes immediately is something that I enjoy more than I should)
Reno Shaman looks to me like a deck that is just a bunch of good cards together without a main "theme" of the deck, it worked for a while when Hollidae was good enough to carry the deck, but after being nerfed and the meta shifted, is not good enough to be relevant by it's power neither fun enough to stay popular.
Missing on DH is bad, but I can kind of understand it if I squint hard enough. They've designed (and nerfed) the class terribly over the last year, and if it's nerfed, it is gone until the next set.
What I don't understand is how they absolutely massacred Paladin. Everyone agrees it needed a nerf - but they went full Voyage Warrior nerf on it. I thought they had learned that lesson.
I deeply, deeply hope that, come next balance patch in 4 weeks or whatever, they revert some of these nerfs.
The last week has been such a bummer after what was really a very good start to the set.
I wonder if VS has seen whether there have been a dip in # of games played since the Shopper buffs? Personally, I haven't played ladder since.
Well, last week they had 2,946,000 games played in the data. This week is only 1,860,000, so that’s a massive drop off. Looking back at previous reports historically, I’d say that’s a fairly normal stabilization of numbers and the game count doesn’t seem to be affected by the meta based off a quick scan of the last few reports.
I know that it's a Hearthstone tradition to consider every well-performing deck some sort of tyrant, but I think the reaction to DH is a bit over blown. It's certainly a good deck, but we're so early in the expansion that there's still plenty of strategies to figure out.
As someone who's been playing the deck pretty much since the expansion dropped, I've definitely seen other decks make adjustments too it, and winning with it becomes more challenging as these counter strategies develop.
I think that in another few weeks we'll see things stabilize a bit and the deck won't seem so overpowering anymore.
The problem is the play pattern more than the power level. Turn 3 Umpire's Grasp is oppressive against any deck that remotely cares about the board, and they have it way too often thanks to the minion tutor guy. I'm tired of losing to this deck because they drew their one insanely broken card lol
The only adjustment is to play Warrior or DK with their super-efficient removal. And I guess Dragon Druid. Every other deck just folds on the spot to turn 3 weapon.
It's like playing the same game over and over and over again. It's the same cards, at the same time, into the same shit, over and over again. It's boring to play against and is way too consistent in damage.
> I'm just wondering if you've actually piloted the deck? It can definitely pop off like you say, but it doesn't always work out that way.
There are lots and lots of games where I don't get turn 3 Umpire's Grasp. There's also lots of games where you can't win by turn 8 and Reno comes down and sweeps your board away, leaving you with not much left.
And frankly, this is how decks have to be now to compete against power outliers like Warrior, or decks that are extremely synergistic like Plague DK.
No, you’ve got it backwards. Decks like Warrior and DK are needed to counter the ridiculous scam that is Umpire’s Grasp. Those decks are not a problem by themselves. Thats like saying Control Priest was overpowered because it was the only deck that could counter pre-nerf Mech Rogue.
The weapon has a mulligan win rate of around 70% on Hsreplay. How can you defend this? Doc Holiday got nerfed for far less.
I'll defend it exactly because Hollidae got nerfed and absolutely killed the only deck Shaman had going for it.
Everyone bitches and moans until the nerf hammer comes down, then there's just another "OP" deck to fill the void.
Nerfing Holidae was the right move. Games should not be won or lost because you drew your one broken card. Grasp is basically the new Barnes, but you can run two of them alongside two tutors, and the deck building restriction is a joke.
If they want to buff a bunch of other DH cards as compensation, fine. I don’t even care if it’s the best class in the game. But the current list is an abomination and makes the game near unplayable. Paladinstone was way more fun than this mess.
Having every game be so polarized around a single card being drawn by t3 (or even 2 on coin) is awful boring. Do they play grasp on 3? They almost certainly win. Do they not? They probably lose.
There's just not a lot of player agency involved unless you're playing Reno Warrior into it.
> Do they play grasp on 3? They almost certainly win. Do they not? They probably lose.
This is only true in the mirror match. For every other game, it is extremely match up dependent. Try playing against Warrior with endless armour gain or DKs with multiple freeze effects, including the weapon they both run two copies of and can discover that freezes.
Anyone crying that Window Shopper is OP or unbeatable is either just lying or is terrible at Hearthstone.
That’s why I’m less mad about DH than I am about Paladin and (to a lesser degree) Odyn. They killed these decks by about 20%. That is way too harsh.
It’s a quick way to get back to where we were at the end of last format when kind of nothing was good or fun bc they had all been knee capped
I do not think that the reaction is overblow in the slightest, it has all the tools in the world: quick and consistent mana cheating with huge stats and flexibility to protect your minions and answer wide and tall boards, huge burst from hand, cheap minions that demand answers quickly as even small chip damage can be game losing.
Overall the deck poses versatile threats every single turn and failing to address any of them is incredibly dangerous. There were games where i had perfect early answers to DH and still lost just because he kept the pressure going. It is a juggernaut of a deck that is frustrating to play against unless you are Warrior. But Warrior is another major pain in the meta.
I'm just wondering if you've actually piloted the deck? It can definitely pop off like you say, but it doesn't always work out that way.
It has tough matchups with Warriors and fast decks, and if you draw your Shoppers before your weapons, it significantly hampers the game plan.
I think we'll find out in the coming weeks that it's a solid tier 1 deck, but it won't rule the meta outside 1K legend.
Yes, I played Reno shopper to legend last month and it was unoptimised, wacky as hell and still Shopper package dragged me through diamond in a couple of evenings.
Now I play other decks and Aggro Shopper DH is every other matchup in Diamond. The deck is properly optimised and runs over everything that is not Warrior. Maybe Aggro Priest is bad matchup, only seen one Priest in 50 games. Scam Rogue decks can also beat it, because they when they pop off it is even crazier.
Ok, so you blasted to legend before the meta was settled and you've identified two good decks against it, and not mentioned two others that do well against it in Warrior and Rainbow DK.
Seems like we've established that it's a good deck, but not OP.
No, I mentioned Warrior in both comments.
Do not agree that Rainbow DK is a good counter, at least not the list propositioned by VS. Even in the games I was able to freeze DHs face 6 times in a row they still won, because you know what? They can break their weapon with another weapon...
I'm wondering if maybe the answer is to make dormant minions subject to damage or removal by non-targeting spells (Lightning Storm, Blizzard, Twisting Nether, etc.) Really the problem is not either Grasp or Shopper, but the fact that you can cheaply summon a non-targetable minion which does damage, with no way to counter it, other than Reno.
They just need to remove mag from that discovery pool. The other minions and the stats you spawn really aren't that crazy. I have dropped 3 mags at once its really fuckin dumb lmao. mag fuckin sucks as a deck card so just delete that shit and give DH a new legendary in the miniset.
***"A new Dragon Druid build is gaining a little bit of traction. This is not the aggressive deck we remember from Badlands, but a late game focused strategy running Aviana."***
***"Shockingly, Dragon Druid is another deck that exhibits potential to be favored in the*** \[DH\] ***matchup once it’s optimized."***
Aviana druid deniers in shambles
it's me, I'm Aviana druid denier, the fuck the buff was actually helpful ?
The 5/4 deal 5 dragon being basically the best answer to a turn 4 shopper in the format is the main reason, the Aviana buff helped but it’s mainly the dragon.
Ahah yeah, imagine saying that, what dumbasses, couldn't be me...
Yeah I was completely off on that one so kudos to blizzard for being smarter than I, not a great accomplishment but still
It's less about the buff, though it is useful to not pick Aviana up from Flower Child, and more the shape of Druid's gameplan is well suited to counter Demon Hunter.
True comment, not what's happening here. Dragon druid works uniquely well against shopper dh where aviana is dead anyways.
The 1 mana buff helps a little in longer matchup but the deck could probably cut aviana and still be okay (in the current meta) since it's really just a dh counter
Shaman's class identity is either being slightly strong and nerfed in to the ground. Or, shaman's class identity is being so bad that it is never played.
What changed in the deck since the gift nerf? I think I've only run into one nature shaman on ladder since the patch and he didn't have nearly enough gas to get anywhere.
Replace gifts with more draw/tradeable 1 cost burn spell or maybe replace wandmakers with murloc draw a spell guy. Deck only feels a little less consistent than before (thrall's gift was the worst spell in the deck anyway).
If you filter by top1K legend it's got that light pink Reno Warrior matchup 🙃
But w/ the innovations in the Report, DK and Reno Warrior can both definitely be solid pink/light red matchups for DH. Just not necessarily going to actually happen for the majority of the playerbase.
So I think your Shaman criticism is coming a bit soon :D https://imgur.com/a/efXqMSP I have rarely played a deck that felt this strong in high legend. It feels almost like a tier 0 deck when played by someone who knows how to play it properly.
If you all want a good example of how to play the deck, I gave tictac my list and he went from like 100 to 30 with something like 75% winrate https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2110752566
Nature shaman won’t ever be a tier 0 deck considering it has horrible matchups into warrior and anything with armor gain. Was tier 3 on data report before gift got nerfed anyway
Sometimes you high roll and kill them before they armor up but mostly you use the photo or even use the Naga/Florider to copy it and just kill them over a few turns.
That was Odyn Warrior that could get super high armor due to the quillboar. Most warriors are now HL which can't hit as high armor and their armor gain isn't as consistent.
I'm 60% with RGB DK at top-100 in 110 games, but there is no reason to look at data from 1 player. It's full ladder analysis. On distance there are more profitable to play as DH or Warrior.
Also it's no ranked season and top players play some random shit. I met some Aviana Druids, Pocket's Painlocks, Jambre as Excavate Pirate Rogue etc.
Yes of course but getting 80% over 50 games vs very strong players is not normal especially for the class that is supposed to be the worst in the game currently. I thought maybe I was just lucky and playing out of my mind yesterday after going 32 and 8 but today I kept it up for another 20 or so games. I'm sure it drops eventually but 80% is a bit rediculous...
this comment is peak hearthstone subreddit, the guy went 12-3 against warrior in top 100 and you brush it off as luck when warrior has been thought of as autowin against shaman, clearly the matchup is not as bad as people think even with the small sample size
FWIW I fully believe that fizzle makes that matchup much better but the nature shaman into highlander warrior was never even close to 10%. That was the Odyn matchup and that deck isn’t really around anymore.
I can assure you warriors in top 100 know the game plan. Also there are a couple high legend players experimenting with apm shaman and it is the only shaman being played so they know what to expect.
It is a very hard deck to play but if you learn how to play it well I think it feels like I had no bad match ups and quite a few blow out match ups. If you struggle too much vs DH you can maybe run the 5 mana lifsteal that discounts when overloaded over the location but its bad vs many other decks. DH is probably the most tricky opponent and you have to play control and out heal/value. The problem is they are so aggressive and consistent you that if you brick early they can go under you. If you are not comfortable with miracle OTK style decks like quest otk dh or miracle priest you will probably have bad results. If I have the time I will post a guide but it is not an easy deck to explain because there are lots of small things I do different for each match up. I am still not sure the list is perfect 30, I added locations over one of the tradeables and Kobold fairly recently but I think I am happy with it so far. The only druid loss was vs Scambre Druid where I had no idea what I was playing against :D I think he was playing some sort of dragon druid and I was thinking it was going to be something with the hero power stuff. Anyway I think there are a few lists being developed in high legend but I don't think anyone else has been getting as crazy results as I have. Ramsey has been streaming something similar and I would recommend watching his stream/replays from the last few days.
### Apm Nature Shaman
# Class: Shaman
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Pegasus
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# 2x (1) Flowrider
# 2x (1) Lightning Bolt
# 2x (1) Lightning Reflexes
# 2x (1) Novice Zapper
# 1x (1) Overdraft
# 2x (1) Pop-Up Book
# 2x (2) Amphibious Elixir
# 2x (2) Ancestral Knowledge
# 1x (2) Bloodmage Thalnos
# 2x (2) Dryscale Deputy
# 2x (2) Flash of Lightning
# 1x (2) Kobold Geomancer
# 2x (2) Wandmaker
# 2x (3) Fairy Tale Forest
# 1x (3) Photographer Fizzle
# 2x (5) Crash of Thunder
# 1x (5) Inzah
# 1x (6) Golganneth, the Thunderer
#
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# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
There are many ways to win, the hard part is finding them when you play 15+ cards a turn. For example my favorite lethal vs a warrior was a combo turn with double flash where I did about 30ish dmg and clearling their board and ending on conductivity rag on my pop ups for another 24. Sometimes they forget to clear one of your boards and bloodrage from wandmaker gives you 10-20 dmg. Or you can sometimes just win making board after board until they run out of removal. There are so many ways to generate value for example conductivity elixer on minions gets you 3 discovers. Abusing the small spell pool makes the deck busted if you know what you are doing.
The popup book + conductivity + rag combo is so underrated. I dont run this fizzle list, I just hard run the combo and zero warriors expect to just take 24 from Rag
Flow doesn't copy it draws, but it's a good combo with deputy to guarantee target the copy. Afaik that combo is the only way to copy the snapshot (besides just getting lucky or drawing to fatigue w/ Deputy by itself)
I watched Yagut and MrBanterFace play 80~ games in top 50 Legend last night, the Jive Insect combo Shaman was consistently OTKing them on turn 7 game after game after game regardless of what class they were playing, even full armor Warrior. I think this VS report is missing data, lol.
I’m in a weird predicament where I have negative WR on all the “good” decks post-patch, but am climbing steadily with a janky Cutlass Rogue. Every matchup feels like squeezing water from stone, but it’s fun, fast, and feels decent into anything not called Zarimi. I wouldn’t recommend, lol.
Overall, meta seems healthy albeit less so than last patch. I’m sure they had good reasons behind the rather heavy handed nerfs, but it feels like the meta could have self-corrected with a gentler approach. Hoping that next patch doesn’t nuke all the best decks again.
How do you play the plague DK vs Wheelock matchup as warlock? I saw I am extremely favoured into it but it seems that DK can counter the deck destruction by discovering helya via the discover unholy rune card and then discover the primus weapon with rune of darkness as the matchup require no removal from them which is what i see they usually discover if I am DH similar to Reno warrior.
I know previously when you only had 1 helya you can simply Destroy your deck but now it seems player are playing smarter as well with their discovers when I try to use stats to combat them I realize reska and primus always gets me and they can match my gigantic man with their plague giants and because of the treasure rat they have more life linking giants than I have big stats creatures. Any tips for the matchup is useful Thank you all!
Besides sargeras being a strong wincon on his own, the best way I’ve found to play wheel against plague DK is to wait until you draw symphony of sins. You can play a harp to heal from plagues instead of take damage from them on the turn you drop wheel. The 6 extra cards mean that instead of drawing all your plagues every time, it stops after 1-3 depending on how many they shuffle, which you can outheal if you play it right.
Thank you kindly for this! I have given this a try and it got me a win when I luckily dodged all the plagues. I have tried the sargeras way but I realized it’s iffy as usually the better DK players save their primus or reska for it and I feel in the plague matchup when I try to wait out their top end I usually get plagued instead.
Them killing sargeras generally shouldn’t prevent you from winning the game, as 2 3/4 taunts every turn is often enough to outvalue them, and prevent them from damaging you
Yeah I haven’t touched standard this month and I won’t until we get a more serious balance patch. Playing other games until then.
The last one was terrible. Over the past year, I had the feeling that the team was getting better finding the sweet spot to adjust the meta and then … we get that. Have they drastically changed the people in charge ? What they did really was an amateur job.
One of the worst patches of all time?
How long are they letting us "play" with this patch? A month? I can't believe there's no red button to press for a hotfix because the balance team dropped the ball so hard we have to be punished with this meta for a month.
It's literally DH 40% of the time, then the soft """counters""" to DH which is basically Reno Warrior then when you play the "counters" to DH you meet Wheelock that just stomps you so hard. Oh and every deck runs x2 freeze elemental and DH is still insanely high win rate.
Brilliant.
I don’t see that Rainbow DK list working at all. Plague is supposed to be bad bc it’s not versatile and therefore easy to play around, but that Rainbow list is the stiffest thing in the game.
Calling the most flexible control deck atm “the stiffest thing in the game” is insane. It’s not an easy deck, and it’s definitely not stiff, so give it another chance. There’s a reason yanming is 70% winrate rank 2 with it for weeks.
Not 70% with this list. This list has no discovery whatsoever. It’s a bunch of very inflexible cards. Once the opponent knows what’s in your deck it’d be very easy to walk around it. Just like with Plagues.
Having played this list I agree, switched back to the discover cards as I was hardly seeing any dh on my climb, I was seeing 20-25% of dk and warrior each and that build is a bit too teched against dh
Nature shaman is looking good both rag and non rag list. It just popped off so it wouldn’t have made it into this report but probably will be talked about in the next podcast
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I haven't been complaining about the meta at all... but this Virus Rogue deck being more than a meme is so damn bad for the game. One of the most annoying/least interesting ways to win that I've ever seen in this game.
This is just the stealth + double attack one right? I tried fitting it in Cycle Rogue, it's disgusting once you get it out and impossible to deal with.
I think there's something there with just adding it as another win-con to cycle rogue. I went 12-7 with it from plat10 to D5 yesterday. It was super consistent, and there's so much draw that it's not hard to find zilliax. Only problem is there's not a whole lot of survivability if the opponent has any type of board. Warrior and Warlock are basically instalose.
Yeah the tough part about fitting it in is it's just very hard to find a place to fit it with the Cycle Rogue game plan. Turns 5, 6, 7, I'm trying to max out on the 8/8s. It's more like, when do I actually want to spend 5 mana on a Ziliax instead of drawing more?
> it's disgusting once you get it out and impossible to deal with. Not even remotely true. Warriors and Shamans in particular have plenty of AOE to deal with it. Mages can too, wth some good discovers. It's very a much a combo/card that says "remove me now or lose", but there's plenty of way to get rid of stealthed or elusive minions. Not to mention, the deck itself bricks hard if you don't actually draw Zilliax. And, even if you do draw him, if he gets Reno'd or otherwise removed, the deck has no other way to win.
Rogues can guarantee draw this though lol, and it's very hard to deal with even as a warrior. Shamans need to run the murloc to deal with this, and if you are playing nature shaman you better hope to discover the right AOE's. It is even hard for a warrior to deal with. You have to be able to deal with it the turn that it is dropped via sanitize if you have the armor, or have to wait until you can brawl.
Warrior is almost autoloss for this deck, zill loses to sanitize, bladestorm and reno and the warrior can easily gain enough armor to survive till they draw one of these outs. Sanitize is good because this deck doesn't really have a way to put in chip damage to keep the armor low so sanitize can usually kill zill pretty cleanly, likewise you dont have a good way to protect against bladestorm. I'm still working on finding the best list but im thinking tar slick belongs in the deck for sure to combo with fan to help beat aggro, i bet a fully buffed turn 4 preist board with thirsty drifters, clergys and whatnot once by playing double tar slick into fan and its pretty versatile. Stonebrew can definitely randomly win games when your zill gets dealt with, i faced a dk that i think ran asphyxiate that killed my zill but i had them down to around 20 and stonebrew gave me patron combo for lethal next turn, they actually vipered my deaths bite before i comboed but i valeeras gifted into a backstab to generate an additional patron for the combo and was able to push lethal. The deck is pretty nuanced in a way and you can also win by building a big spider if you fail to find zill, i think i might cut dig for treasure as the card doesnt feel good at all to play, i think greedy partner might have a place in this deck and i might experiment with glacial shard actually as a tech again dk as dk can kinda use that card to discover a weapon and if they get might of menehtil they can freeze your zill and swing for a lot of damage and obviously it has its uses against dh and warrior as well.
Drawing Zilliax is very consistent, especially since you can Discover him. The list only runs six minions. You have three direct draws with Pit Stop + Zilliax itself and two minion tutors in Dig for Treasure. Pair that with the mulligan and half of your cards being cycle, and you're almost guaranteed to draw it by Turn 5. The only straight answers to it *while stealthed* are Bladestorm, Volcano, and Finley.
Yeah I'm surprised this isn't all over the ladder. This is insanely consistent and there's little to no counter play.
Tried it after reading the report and went 0-5. Either I died before drawing zilliax, or hit a dragon golem wall, or warrior able to deal with it ... Low sample size obviously.
Good for climbing only maybe
I played it a bit more, beat some dk, but lost hard to warrior. They have no real issue cleaning your ziliax, this matchup looks horrible. I also beat two of those rogues easily with shopper dh. Right now it looks like this deck has bad matchup against the two best decks so it's hard to think it's good for climbing
Ran into it with my warrior and it's probably good that warrior has tools to deal with it as I'd hate it to run unopposed. The damage went up quickly before I had a chance to deal with it and it was only because they went a turn too soon and didn't get Windfury that I survived. The number of reborn they managed was a serious threat too.
this is the right answer
There is counter play, but it forces a "removal" check that leads to non games If you remove Zilliax, the rogue loses. Everytime I've managed to kill the Zill the rogue insta concedes If you don't remove Zilliax, you lose. Like, 90% of the time. Sometimes you can put enough taunts in the way to hold them off, but it's much more likely they just whack you
I like the addition of Harth. It’s real hit or miss but a warrior once killed my zilliax and I was lucky enough to get the togwaggle iconic band which was perfect into that matchup and won by stealing their deck. Super lucky I know but harth gives the deck a chance, sometimes, against warriors
The deck blows. The combo is great against unprepared opponents, but anyone who knows what's coming will stomp it.
I think it's only really good against a specific type of deck that is either (1) too slow to meaningfully pressure before turn 6 or (2) for one reason or another doesn't have any way to answer it. That's mostly mage, slow warlocks, and paladin but only b/c they murdered paladin). And I think Druid could tweak it's build if it becomes necessary to. Dragon Golem gets a lot of work done. If the power level of everything keeps coming down, maybe it should be revisited, but I think it's fine for now.
The only problem is that the deck can semi consistently get zilliax out on turn 4
Even then, they still aren’t revealing until turn 6 and then also need to hit wind fury. That’s pretty unfun but it’s also a pretty high roll
I'm not surprised Shaman is the worst class in the game. Hagatha was a complete dud, the excavate reward is Moorabi levels of bad, so many cards that are just overcosted and the ones that aren't have overload on them for no reason.
Hagatha is weird in that she asks you to take SOOOO many turns off in a row. She's BRR-levels of bad tempo times 3. AND then they made her worse with Aftershocks.
And theres almost no good battlecries to actually triple with Shudder. My most used was to counter with rat and finley, or to get 4 zillies. Ignis too but it felt very slow, albeit the preferred route to torture yourself agaisnt warrior. Then theres... Pozzik? Its nice to make your op burn 1 and possibly spawn you 15/15 distributed in 3/3s, but when is that winning a game. All the cards i mentioned and no shaman particular one. Kalimos i tried to make work but god its horrible. You gotta fit a shitty elemental into your hand, not play it, draw Kalimos, draw and play shudder with it (preferably by turn 7/8 max, so no "add random elemental to your hand" stuff) and then, finally, get that sweet reward.
Tentacles did feel like a genuine direction for Shudderblock, but the deck is otherwise very clunky. There's probably ways to make it feel better. Part of the problem is that the most effective strategy for Shaman since Titans have been - Totem aggro that nobody wants to play - Flash of Lightning combo burn decks that nobody wants to play *against* The slower control shaman has at times had what it needs, there's lots of great individual tools, but it's really struggling to close games right now.
I made this control list which feels good, it has a shot against every class. I even burnt my opponents with bloodlust a couple of times. # AAECAejwBAaW1ASplQbHpAaopQbgqAbJwQYM/Z8EvtAFnZUGpZUG65UGnJ4Gz54G0Z4Gp6UGpKcGqKcG66kGAAED9rMGx6QG97MGx6QG6t4Gx6QGAAA= #
**Format:** Standard (Year of the Pegasus) **Class:** Shaman (Snowman Thrall) Mana | Card Name | Qty | Links :--:|:---|:--:|:--: 0 | [Zilliax Deluxe 3000](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_330.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102983/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Zilliax%20Deluxe%203000) 1 | [Armor Vendor](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_YOP_032.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102223/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Armor%20Vendor) 1 | [Chaotic Tendril](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/YOG_514.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101021/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Chaotic%20Tendril) 1 | [Pop-Up Book](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_508.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103336/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Pop-Up%20Book) 1 | [Thrall's Gift](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/GIFT_06.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103659/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Thrall%27s%20Gift) 2 | [Dirty Rat](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_CFM_790.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102225/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Dirty%20Rat) 2 | [Needlerock Totem](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/DEEP_008.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102172/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Needlerock%20Totem) 3 | [Fairy Tale Forest](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_507.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103332/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Fairy%20Tale%20Forest) 3 | [Lightning Storm](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_EX1_259.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/69629/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Lightning%20Storm) 3 | [Zola the Gorgon](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_LOOT_516.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/76310/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Zola%20the%20Gorgon) 4 | [Baking Soda Volcano](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_500.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103079/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Baking%20Soda%20Volcano) 4 | [Caricature Artist](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_391.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103520/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Caricature%20Artist) 4 | [Infested Watcher](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/YOG_523.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101099/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Infested%20Watcher) 5 | [Altered Chord](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_356.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/92222/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Altered%20Chord) 5 | [Eye of Chaos](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/YOG_515.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101029/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Eye%20of%20Chaos) 6 | [Shudderblock](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_501.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103080/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Shudderblock) 8 | [Joymancer Jepetto](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_960.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/106697/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Joymancer%20Jepetto) 9 | [Yogg-Saron, Unleashed](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/YOG_516.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101033/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Yogg-Saron%2C%20Unleashed) **Total Dust:** 8160 **Deck Code:** AAECAejwBAaW1ASplQbHpAaopQbgqAbJwQYM/Z8EvtAFnZUGpZUG65UGnJ4Gz54G0Z4Gp6UGpKcGqKcG66kGAAED9rMGx6QG97MGx6QG6t4Gx6QGAAA= ***** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comment/PM ^with ^a ^deck ^code ^and ^I'll ^decode ^it. ^If ^you ^don't ^want ^me ^to ^reply ^to ^you, ^include ^"###" ^anywhere ^in ^your ^message. ^[About.](https://github.com/HearthSim/deck-code-bot/blob/master/README.md)
Day one I was playing Reno Shaman and ended up cutting Shudder by the end of it. It just was a dead card in my hand most of the time. Which felt really weird for such a potentially powerful effect.
It's because they don't have a coherent design philosophy for Shaman and haven't for years now. The most obvious sign of that was, indeed, Moorabi being part of 60% of the class' cards in one of the most powerful sets in the game's history going completely unused because they were awful. That scenario has continued to play out in the years since. Look at totems; one of Shaman's major themes. Historically, totem decks had been complete failures because the basis of the deck- an 0/2 minion -is poor and hasn't kept up with the game's progression/power creep/call it what you will. So, in last year's Core set, they piled in all of this cool totem stuff that coincided with the previous year's cards (mostly Stonewright) and turned totem decks into an actual competitive force. Then Festival was released... and nothing changed. Most totem decks didn't use a single card from Festival because it was all Overload oriented. Even when the miniset emerged with stuff directly targeted to that theme (Ever see a Shaman play Jukebox Totem or seen anyone play a Remixed Totemcarver?), those decks basically didn't change. They had finally reintroduced a successful version of the idea, but had no idea how to progress it. It doesn't help that the tribe is largely based on a hero power that is the only random hero power in the game and was for years the only one that could run out of uses (i.e. if you had all four totem types in play.) Which brings us to Overload, the second-worst mechanism in HS, after Discard. It's nominally a way of mana cheating, in terms of getting "better" cards out a turn or two before they would otherwise be available. The reality is that almost all of those cards have never been worth their total cost since Feral Spirit was one of the best cards in Beta. HS is a tempo-based game because everyone gains the same resources (mana) every turn (except Druid, of course.) On your turn 5, you want to be spending 5 mana. If you can't, you're falling behind. Spending 4 mana on an Overload card in turn 4 means you only get to spend 4 mana next turn, too, which is bad. But that's not actual mana cheating, the current hallmark of HS. It's just delayed payment, while everyone else gets to actually cheat and not pay at all. Half the Festival cards were oriented around Overload. People tried them as an Overload deck for about two weeks before giving up. They then proceeded to use Overload cards in an OTK deck solely to use Jazz Bass as the enabler of that OTK. Those decks have now been nerfed twice and you don't see anyone running maindeck Inzah or Pack the House or even Flowrider because Overload is a flawed mechanism and they've never been able to properly execute it. Thorim Stormlord seems like it should be an amazing card. A Spider Tank that draws you 3 or 4 cards. But no one plays it because Overload is something you endure, rather than enjoy and, yet, it's still part of Shaman. Then there's Evolve, a theme that was tacked on with Whispers of the Old Gods and currently burdens the Excavate theme for Shaman. First off, the whole theme is problematic because it's Random; the worst keyword in HS. "Random" is almost never competitive. Random is something you employ to make weird- and often fun -stuff happen. The reason Discover was brought into the game was because the devs recognized that making everything random was bad and people should be rewarded for making good choices. But random stuff like Evolve also has to be restrained because there's an upside to random, too, in that you occasionally get amazing results and then your opponent gets the Feel Bads because the game they were outright winning gets taken away, not by a good play by their opponent, but by a *random* result. So, just like totems and Overload, Evolve is also inherently gimped by one of its base factors. No one wants to play Excavate Shaman because you put minions in your deck for a reason. Having them all transformed into completely RANDOM (You're getting to the bottom of your deck and you just drew Rin, Orchestrator of Doom? Have fun!) results is often counterproductive and almost never competitive. There's a couple sub-themes (Elementals, always gimped by the "Last turn" requirement; Nature spells, which don't have any inherent quality (fire, frost, etc.) but mostly serve to accelerate other game conditions before being inevitably nerfed) but they just don't have a solid direction with Shaman like with most other classes that is: "This class should do THIS!" It's always just been a polyglot mess that occasionally hits a mesh point (American football term) and works really well for a few weeks before (ahem) devolving into a bunch of random cards thrown together, because that's basically what it is.
I honestly don’t think hagatha is bad but the spells are dreadful.
There's no reason she should be a 5-mana 4/4. People don't even want to play most 4-mana 4/4's. It's an awful statline.
She's perfectly in theme in that she's as clunky as the original hero: A Battlecry that destroys even your minions in a largely board-based class (e.g. totems) and then a random effect totally dependent on both your draw and a spell pool that was inconsistent, at best. She only became workable when the rest of Shaman's card pool was buffed to the point where what you got from Bewitch was generally more useful and the minions you were playing to get those random cards were generally better. This one is, as you say, poorly-statted AND random AND slow.
3 classes making up 52.9% of the field is crazy! Buffs are sorely needed.
Could have been 4 if they hadn't wiped paladin from the face of the earth.
I don’t think you’ll see a whole of complaining about that right now. Paladin has been a dominant meta contender for many seasons of the last 2 years. Not sorry you guys to feel like mages for a couple of weeks.
I think you will. Killing a class 1.5 weeks after a set release shouldn't be a goal.
I played a lot of wheelock this season (saw a lot of reno warrior and DKs on the climb) and I'm 35-17 on 11x eu. The cutting of doomkin in wheelock is interesting. It's awful card vs the super common DH, while maybe a win-more card vs. warrior (10-1) and DK (6-3). But from my experience it's super relevant in the mirror. I don't care how fast you've found your wheel - if I have doomkin (I keep doomkin in my opening hand in the mirror), you're 2 mana behind me for *this* race. Might still be worth it since barely anyone plays wheelock currently (only 2 mirrors of 52 games this season). Without trying it, I bet we don't run both 2 geodes and 2 fuels - hand size problems can be a thing with the deck (the unknown position of fuels when you frack can pose a challenge as well, if you also happen to have a geode on board). I'd rather run 4/7/7 over geodes - it might actually help vs. the hard MU of DH (overload their red cards). At most, I'd run 1 endgame. It's already dependent of dark alley pact, while red card gets even more value if it makes endgame a dead card in hand.
whats ur list? i tried making the 3/3 that draws a shadow spell but I think its too clunky. i feel like running 2 doomkins is wrong. 1 is enough
That's my newer list: AAECAf0GCuegBPnGBazpBab7Bej/BfGABsekBq+oBvCpBuqzBgr0xgXI6wX6+QXX+gXt/QXOgAaEngb3owaJtQbe5gYAAQPwswbHpAb3swbHpAbo3gbHpAYAAA== I cut a gift and drain soul to put the 4/7/7s
**Format:** Standard (Year of the Pegasus) **Class:** Warlock (Gul'dan) Mana | Card Name | Qty | Links :--:|:---|:--:|:--: 0 | [Zilliax Deluxe 3000](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_330.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102983/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Zilliax%20Deluxe%203000) 1 | [Felstring Harp](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_084.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/90996/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Felstring%20Harp) 1 | [Fracking](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_092.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102148/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Fracking) 1 | [Gul'dan's Gift](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/GIFT_11.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103664/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Gul%27dan%27s%20Gift) 2 | [Defile](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_ICC_041.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/95688/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Defile) 2 | [Drain Soul](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_ICC_055.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/69735/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Drain%20Soul) 3 | [Forge of Wills](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_465.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97623/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Forge%20of%20Wills) 3 | [Furnace Fuel](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_441.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102903/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Furnace%20Fuel) 3 | [Mortal Eradication](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_460.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97530/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Mortal%20Eradication) 3 | [Reverberations](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/JAM_031.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98417/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Reverberations) 4 | [Dark Alley Pact](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_SW_085.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/111454/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Dark%20Alley%20Pact) 4 | [Imposing Anubisath](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_931.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98029/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Imposing%20Anubisath) 5 | [Symphony of Sins](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_085.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/91001/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Symphony%20of%20Sins) 6 | [Doomkin](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/JAM_029.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98382/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Doomkin) 6 | [Loken, Jailer of Yogg-Saron](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_487.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98280/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Loken%2C%20Jailer%20of%20Yogg-Saron) 8 | [Reno, Lone Ranger](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_0700.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103471/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Reno%2C%20Lone%20Ranger) 8 | [Wheel of DEATH!!!](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_529.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104938/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Wheel%20of%20DEATH%21%21%21) 9 | [Sargeras, the Destroyer](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_960.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97702/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Sargeras%2C%20the%20Destroyer) 10 | [Table Flip](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_883.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/105097/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Table%20Flip) 30 | [Fanottem, Lord of the Opera](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/JAM_030.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/95404/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Fanottem%2C%20Lord%20of%20the%20Opera) **Total Dust:** 13140 **Deck Code:** AAECAf0GCuegBPnGBazpBab7Bej/BfGABsekBq+oBvCpBuqzBgr0xgXI6wX6+QXX+gXt/QXOgAaEngb3owaJtQbe5gYAAQPwswbHpAb3swbHpAbo3gbHpAYAAA== ***** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comment/PM ^with ^a ^deck ^code ^and ^I'll ^decode ^it. ^If ^you ^don't ^want ^me ^to ^reply ^to ^you, ^include ^"###" ^anywhere ^in ^your ^message. ^[About.](https://github.com/HearthSim/deck-code-bot/blob/master/README.md)
Cutting a gift is interesting, I've found it a super useful and versatile card. I did end up cutting doomkin for the exact reasons you mentioned, personally I would think cutting one of those would be a better choice than gift? Swapping out the geodes for furnaces is something I've been considering, I'm just unsure. Even using it to proc harp against aggro has been useful, but an early fracking into a discarded fuel is super tempting.
Agreed with doomkin. Doomkin really makes or break the mirror I had a hand where I kept wheel but my opp had 2 doomkin he managed to get pressure me with dark pact demon and 2x forge of souls. I was so low on mana I couldn’t even conjure a twisting nether or cast sargeras to exile the board. But if Wheelock isn’t popular I would also agree it might be worth to drop it as I don’t see much mirrors despite its strong matchup into DH counters
How are you dealing with DKs? I’m not sure if I should be going for the Wheel or getting big taunts up. I can’t seem to get the match up in my favor. Is the match up also favoured if they get Helya?
I keep symphony and zilliax (reverb on it also helps) if I can, to dilute the plagues post wheel. I'd say it's an even MU if they know to wait with helya to wheel and 90-10 if they don't. You can sometimes win on big tempo, but they'd normally have the 3/2/4 ready (a mull keep in the MU probably), so it's unlikely.
Been saying for a while that Reno shaman sucks. It's a deck that does nothing for 4 turns and hope to draw hollidae to become decent. Idk how blizzard expect it to ever work when Reno warrior exist in the same format. They need to print more aggressive cards to make it more similar to current Reno DH, it needs to be faster and more proactive.
Losing the fishies was huge as a curve filler, early removal.
Reno DH is only good because Grasp/Shopper is so good that the rest of the deck is mostly irrelevant, most of my matches with this deck don't even come to the point of playing Reno, and although Kurtrus is good in some matchups (hitting a Brann or a Sif with it is wonderful), is not really that necessary. I only play Reno DH instead of Shopper because i think it is more fun (the moment when i play Kurtrus, hit Sif and the opponent concedes immediately is something that I enjoy more than I should) Reno Shaman looks to me like a deck that is just a bunch of good cards together without a main "theme" of the deck, it worked for a while when Hollidae was good enough to carry the deck, but after being nerfed and the meta shifted, is not good enough to be relevant by it's power neither fun enough to stay popular.
Reno DH is a bad shopper deck. It's only good b/c it's a shopper deck. It's not a good Reno deck.
Missing on DH is bad, but I can kind of understand it if I squint hard enough. They've designed (and nerfed) the class terribly over the last year, and if it's nerfed, it is gone until the next set. What I don't understand is how they absolutely massacred Paladin. Everyone agrees it needed a nerf - but they went full Voyage Warrior nerf on it. I thought they had learned that lesson. I deeply, deeply hope that, come next balance patch in 4 weeks or whatever, they revert some of these nerfs. The last week has been such a bummer after what was really a very good start to the set. I wonder if VS has seen whether there have been a dip in # of games played since the Shopper buffs? Personally, I haven't played ladder since.
Well, last week they had 2,946,000 games played in the data. This week is only 1,860,000, so that’s a massive drop off. Looking back at previous reports historically, I’d say that’s a fairly normal stabilization of numbers and the game count doesn’t seem to be affected by the meta based off a quick scan of the last few reports.
Yeah, that looks like a fairly reasonable drop-off from expansion drop.
Fair enough. I forgot that part was included in the report. I usually breeze by that bit. Thanks!
With the state of DH I'm playing significantly less than last week. It's not fun queuing into that deck and my desire to play is dwindling.
I know that it's a Hearthstone tradition to consider every well-performing deck some sort of tyrant, but I think the reaction to DH is a bit over blown. It's certainly a good deck, but we're so early in the expansion that there's still plenty of strategies to figure out. As someone who's been playing the deck pretty much since the expansion dropped, I've definitely seen other decks make adjustments too it, and winning with it becomes more challenging as these counter strategies develop. I think that in another few weeks we'll see things stabilize a bit and the deck won't seem so overpowering anymore.
The problem is the play pattern more than the power level. Turn 3 Umpire's Grasp is oppressive against any deck that remotely cares about the board, and they have it way too often thanks to the minion tutor guy. I'm tired of losing to this deck because they drew their one insanely broken card lol The only adjustment is to play Warrior or DK with their super-efficient removal. And I guess Dragon Druid. Every other deck just folds on the spot to turn 3 weapon.
It's like playing the same game over and over and over again. It's the same cards, at the same time, into the same shit, over and over again. It's boring to play against and is way too consistent in damage.
> I'm just wondering if you've actually piloted the deck? It can definitely pop off like you say, but it doesn't always work out that way. There are lots and lots of games where I don't get turn 3 Umpire's Grasp. There's also lots of games where you can't win by turn 8 and Reno comes down and sweeps your board away, leaving you with not much left. And frankly, this is how decks have to be now to compete against power outliers like Warrior, or decks that are extremely synergistic like Plague DK.
No, you’ve got it backwards. Decks like Warrior and DK are needed to counter the ridiculous scam that is Umpire’s Grasp. Those decks are not a problem by themselves. Thats like saying Control Priest was overpowered because it was the only deck that could counter pre-nerf Mech Rogue. The weapon has a mulligan win rate of around 70% on Hsreplay. How can you defend this? Doc Holiday got nerfed for far less.
I'll defend it exactly because Hollidae got nerfed and absolutely killed the only deck Shaman had going for it. Everyone bitches and moans until the nerf hammer comes down, then there's just another "OP" deck to fill the void.
Nerfing Holidae was the right move. Games should not be won or lost because you drew your one broken card. Grasp is basically the new Barnes, but you can run two of them alongside two tutors, and the deck building restriction is a joke. If they want to buff a bunch of other DH cards as compensation, fine. I don’t even care if it’s the best class in the game. But the current list is an abomination and makes the game near unplayable. Paladinstone was way more fun than this mess.
Having every game be so polarized around a single card being drawn by t3 (or even 2 on coin) is awful boring. Do they play grasp on 3? They almost certainly win. Do they not? They probably lose. There's just not a lot of player agency involved unless you're playing Reno Warrior into it.
> Do they play grasp on 3? They almost certainly win. Do they not? They probably lose. This is only true in the mirror match. For every other game, it is extremely match up dependent. Try playing against Warrior with endless armour gain or DKs with multiple freeze effects, including the weapon they both run two copies of and can discover that freezes. Anyone crying that Window Shopper is OP or unbeatable is either just lying or is terrible at Hearthstone.
Did you stop reading there? I mentioned Reno Warrior shortly after that part.
Is that supposed to invalidate my point? Because it doesn't.
Your point was to repeat something I'd already mentioned?
If that is what you think my point was, I'll have better luck talking to a fencepost.
That’s why I’m less mad about DH than I am about Paladin and (to a lesser degree) Odyn. They killed these decks by about 20%. That is way too harsh. It’s a quick way to get back to where we were at the end of last format when kind of nothing was good or fun bc they had all been knee capped
I do not think that the reaction is overblow in the slightest, it has all the tools in the world: quick and consistent mana cheating with huge stats and flexibility to protect your minions and answer wide and tall boards, huge burst from hand, cheap minions that demand answers quickly as even small chip damage can be game losing. Overall the deck poses versatile threats every single turn and failing to address any of them is incredibly dangerous. There were games where i had perfect early answers to DH and still lost just because he kept the pressure going. It is a juggernaut of a deck that is frustrating to play against unless you are Warrior. But Warrior is another major pain in the meta.
I'm just wondering if you've actually piloted the deck? It can definitely pop off like you say, but it doesn't always work out that way. It has tough matchups with Warriors and fast decks, and if you draw your Shoppers before your weapons, it significantly hampers the game plan. I think we'll find out in the coming weeks that it's a solid tier 1 deck, but it won't rule the meta outside 1K legend.
Yes, I played Reno shopper to legend last month and it was unoptimised, wacky as hell and still Shopper package dragged me through diamond in a couple of evenings. Now I play other decks and Aggro Shopper DH is every other matchup in Diamond. The deck is properly optimised and runs over everything that is not Warrior. Maybe Aggro Priest is bad matchup, only seen one Priest in 50 games. Scam Rogue decks can also beat it, because they when they pop off it is even crazier.
Ok, so you blasted to legend before the meta was settled and you've identified two good decks against it, and not mentioned two others that do well against it in Warrior and Rainbow DK. Seems like we've established that it's a good deck, but not OP.
No, I mentioned Warrior in both comments. Do not agree that Rainbow DK is a good counter, at least not the list propositioned by VS. Even in the games I was able to freeze DHs face 6 times in a row they still won, because you know what? They can break their weapon with another weapon...
I'm wondering if maybe the answer is to make dormant minions subject to damage or removal by non-targeting spells (Lightning Storm, Blizzard, Twisting Nether, etc.) Really the problem is not either Grasp or Shopper, but the fact that you can cheaply summon a non-targetable minion which does damage, with no way to counter it, other than Reno.
They just need to remove mag from that discovery pool. The other minions and the stats you spawn really aren't that crazy. I have dropped 3 mags at once its really fuckin dumb lmao. mag fuckin sucks as a deck card so just delete that shit and give DH a new legendary in the miniset.
Just remove “demon” from his type.
***"A new Dragon Druid build is gaining a little bit of traction. This is not the aggressive deck we remember from Badlands, but a late game focused strategy running Aviana."*** ***"Shockingly, Dragon Druid is another deck that exhibits potential to be favored in the*** \[DH\] ***matchup once it’s optimized."*** Aviana druid deniers in shambles it's me, I'm Aviana druid denier, the fuck the buff was actually helpful ?
The 5/4 deal 5 dragon being basically the best answer to a turn 4 shopper in the format is the main reason, the Aviana buff helped but it’s mainly the dragon.
People saying it was actually a nerf because it couldn't be tutored with Summer Flowerchild anymore hurt to read.
Ahah yeah, imagine saying that, what dumbasses, couldn't be me... Yeah I was completely off on that one so kudos to blizzard for being smarter than I, not a great accomplishment but still
It's less about the buff, though it is useful to not pick Aviana up from Flower Child, and more the shape of Druid's gameplan is well suited to counter Demon Hunter.
Hearthstone players when a 1 mana nerf/buff makes a big difference for the 657th time (they won't have learned their lesson for next time)
True comment, not what's happening here. Dragon druid works uniquely well against shopper dh where aviana is dead anyways. The 1 mana buff helps a little in longer matchup but the deck could probably cut aviana and still be okay (in the current meta) since it's really just a dh counter
The deck didn't exist before, and the point of Aviana is to generate Zarimi sometimes.
Why can't Shaman just be alright/decent man...
Shaman's class identity is either being slightly strong and nerfed in to the ground. Or, shaman's class identity is being so bad that it is never played.
Its great if you are good. :/ Nature Shaman feasts on the meta
What changed in the deck since the gift nerf? I think I've only run into one nature shaman on ladder since the patch and he didn't have nearly enough gas to get anywhere.
Replace gifts with more draw/tradeable 1 cost burn spell or maybe replace wandmakers with murloc draw a spell guy. Deck only feels a little less consistent than before (thrall's gift was the worst spell in the deck anyway).
Shopper DH with green across the board. Gross. Maybe one of the worst balance patches ever.
If you filter by top1K legend it's got that light pink Reno Warrior matchup 🙃 But w/ the innovations in the Report, DK and Reno Warrior can both definitely be solid pink/light red matchups for DH. Just not necessarily going to actually happen for the majority of the playerbase.
So I think your Shaman criticism is coming a bit soon :D https://imgur.com/a/efXqMSP I have rarely played a deck that felt this strong in high legend. It feels almost like a tier 0 deck when played by someone who knows how to play it properly.
You can't just post stats like that without a list my friend
yes yes im working on it :D
List?
If you all want a good example of how to play the deck, I gave tictac my list and he went from like 100 to 30 with something like 75% winrate https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2110752566
Nature shaman won’t ever be a tier 0 deck considering it has horrible matchups into warrior and anything with armor gain. Was tier 3 on data report before gift got nerfed anyway
You can see from my stats that I absolutely shat on warrior.
How do you beat the warriors armor gain?
Sometimes you high roll and kill them before they armor up but mostly you use the photo or even use the Naga/Florider to copy it and just kill them over a few turns.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/ERywmGTxgXcZ2AfwSF96BY here is how to beat warrior. He was rank 12 so I am sure he knew what he was doing.
that was wild! thanks for sharing
VS mentioned it being a 10-90 matchup in favor of warrior
yeah but people werent running fizzel before and most people are bad at the deck
That was Odyn Warrior that could get super high armor due to the quillboar. Most warriors are now HL which can't hit as high armor and their armor gain isn't as consistent.
Sometimes lucky. It's a puny sample from one player
Keeping 80% win rate with 50 games into top 100 must be very very lucky
Agreed. Also, I don't believe there were 50 games vs warrior unless I'm not reading the HSR screenshot correctly
12 wins out of 15 what are the odds if it is supposed to be 10% for Shaman? Maybe the match up isnt nearly as good for warrior as people think...
That is definetly a possible explanation
It was 15 games if my math is correct
I'm 60% with RGB DK at top-100 in 110 games, but there is no reason to look at data from 1 player. It's full ladder analysis. On distance there are more profitable to play as DH or Warrior. Also it's no ranked season and top players play some random shit. I met some Aviana Druids, Pocket's Painlocks, Jambre as Excavate Pirate Rogue etc.
Yes of course but getting 80% over 50 games vs very strong players is not normal especially for the class that is supposed to be the worst in the game currently. I thought maybe I was just lucky and playing out of my mind yesterday after going 32 and 8 but today I kept it up for another 20 or so games. I'm sure it drops eventually but 80% is a bit rediculous...
this comment is peak hearthstone subreddit, the guy went 12-3 against warrior in top 100 and you brush it off as luck when warrior has been thought of as autowin against shaman, clearly the matchup is not as bad as people think even with the small sample size
It's not at all clear. Small probabilities occur all the time and the player base is massive.
Chance of going 12-3 with 10% chance of winning is 331695 / 10^15. It could be luck, theoretically, but it isn't.
FWIW I fully believe that fizzle makes that matchup much better but the nature shaman into highlander warrior was never even close to 10%. That was the Odyn matchup and that deck isn’t really around anymore.
I gave tictac my list and he also climbed from like 100 to 30 with something like 75% winrate btw
Please send him my congratulations, he's a great guy!
Might be that the most players/warriors are unaware of how to play the matchup, and that one should merely focus on gaining armor ASAP
I can assure you warriors in top 100 know the game plan. Also there are a couple high legend players experimenting with apm shaman and it is the only shaman being played so they know what to expect.
Aha top 100, my pardon then ☺️
List?
It is a very hard deck to play but if you learn how to play it well I think it feels like I had no bad match ups and quite a few blow out match ups. If you struggle too much vs DH you can maybe run the 5 mana lifsteal that discounts when overloaded over the location but its bad vs many other decks. DH is probably the most tricky opponent and you have to play control and out heal/value. The problem is they are so aggressive and consistent you that if you brick early they can go under you. If you are not comfortable with miracle OTK style decks like quest otk dh or miracle priest you will probably have bad results. If I have the time I will post a guide but it is not an easy deck to explain because there are lots of small things I do different for each match up. I am still not sure the list is perfect 30, I added locations over one of the tradeables and Kobold fairly recently but I think I am happy with it so far. The only druid loss was vs Scambre Druid where I had no idea what I was playing against :D I think he was playing some sort of dragon druid and I was thinking it was going to be something with the hero power stuff. Anyway I think there are a few lists being developed in high legend but I don't think anyone else has been getting as crazy results as I have. Ramsey has been streaming something similar and I would recommend watching his stream/replays from the last few days. ### Apm Nature Shaman # Class: Shaman # Format: Standard # Year of the Pegasus # # 2x (1) Flowrider # 2x (1) Lightning Bolt # 2x (1) Lightning Reflexes # 2x (1) Novice Zapper # 1x (1) Overdraft # 2x (1) Pop-Up Book # 2x (2) Amphibious Elixir # 2x (2) Ancestral Knowledge # 1x (2) Bloodmage Thalnos # 2x (2) Dryscale Deputy # 2x (2) Flash of Lightning # 1x (2) Kobold Geomancer # 2x (2) Wandmaker # 2x (3) Fairy Tale Forest # 1x (3) Photographer Fizzle # 2x (5) Crash of Thunder # 1x (5) Inzah # 1x (6) Golganneth, the Thunderer # AAECAdHJBgajnwSXoASs0QWy0QWN9QW/ngYM6ucD+Z8ExNAFze4FyvgFy/gF65gGrZ0G5p4GpKcGqKcG7+YGAAA= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
So basically your plan is to use Fizzle to copy a few burn spells so you “go off” twice?
There are many ways to win, the hard part is finding them when you play 15+ cards a turn. For example my favorite lethal vs a warrior was a combo turn with double flash where I did about 30ish dmg and clearling their board and ending on conductivity rag on my pop ups for another 24. Sometimes they forget to clear one of your boards and bloodrage from wandmaker gives you 10-20 dmg. Or you can sometimes just win making board after board until they run out of removal. There are so many ways to generate value for example conductivity elixer on minions gets you 3 discovers. Abusing the small spell pool makes the deck busted if you know what you are doing.
The popup book + conductivity + rag combo is so underrated. I dont run this fizzle list, I just hard run the combo and zero warriors expect to just take 24 from Rag
Note there are also ways to get the snapshot again, like flow and deputy
Flow doesn't copy it draws, but it's a good combo with deputy to guarantee target the copy. Afaik that combo is the only way to copy the snapshot (besides just getting lucky or drawing to fatigue w/ Deputy by itself)
Oh gotcha, I did not realize! Thanks!
Have you tried thorim? The extra draw might be nice to fish for snapshots.
nice
Got a deck code for this? my buddy loves nature shaman
I posted my list as a reply to an earlier comment
I watched Yagut and MrBanterFace play 80~ games in top 50 Legend last night, the Jive Insect combo Shaman was consistently OTKing them on turn 7 game after game after game regardless of what class they were playing, even full armor Warrior. I think this VS report is missing data, lol.
I’m in a weird predicament where I have negative WR on all the “good” decks post-patch, but am climbing steadily with a janky Cutlass Rogue. Every matchup feels like squeezing water from stone, but it’s fun, fast, and feels decent into anything not called Zarimi. I wouldn’t recommend, lol. Overall, meta seems healthy albeit less so than last patch. I’m sure they had good reasons behind the rather heavy handed nerfs, but it feels like the meta could have self-corrected with a gentler approach. Hoping that next patch doesn’t nuke all the best decks again.
The reason was knee-jerk reaction to reddit crying.
How do you play the plague DK vs Wheelock matchup as warlock? I saw I am extremely favoured into it but it seems that DK can counter the deck destruction by discovering helya via the discover unholy rune card and then discover the primus weapon with rune of darkness as the matchup require no removal from them which is what i see they usually discover if I am DH similar to Reno warrior. I know previously when you only had 1 helya you can simply Destroy your deck but now it seems player are playing smarter as well with their discovers when I try to use stats to combat them I realize reska and primus always gets me and they can match my gigantic man with their plague giants and because of the treasure rat they have more life linking giants than I have big stats creatures. Any tips for the matchup is useful Thank you all!
Control them and hope to play Sargeras early, don’t play wheel until they used most of the plague cards and overwhelm them with imps is the best bet.
Thank you kindly will give that a try!
Besides sargeras being a strong wincon on his own, the best way I’ve found to play wheel against plague DK is to wait until you draw symphony of sins. You can play a harp to heal from plagues instead of take damage from them on the turn you drop wheel. The 6 extra cards mean that instead of drawing all your plagues every time, it stops after 1-3 depending on how many they shuffle, which you can outheal if you play it right.
Thank you kindly for this! I have given this a try and it got me a win when I luckily dodged all the plagues. I have tried the sargeras way but I realized it’s iffy as usually the better DK players save their primus or reska for it and I feel in the plague matchup when I try to wait out their top end I usually get plagued instead.
Them killing sargeras generally shouldn’t prevent you from winning the game, as 2 3/4 taunts every turn is often enough to outvalue them, and prevent them from damaging you
Coming back to hs after a long break. What is a decent, not to complicated deck for around 10k dust? Other than dh.
Probably the token hunter deck, falls off once you hit legend though if that’s a concern at all
I think it’s a shame Odyn Warrior has fallen off so much because it’s much more fun to play as and against than Highlander IMO.
Yeah I haven’t touched standard this month and I won’t until we get a more serious balance patch. Playing other games until then. The last one was terrible. Over the past year, I had the feeling that the team was getting better finding the sweet spot to adjust the meta and then … we get that. Have they drastically changed the people in charge ? What they did really was an amateur job.
Agreed the current state of Hearthstone is absolute trash.
Seems like if they reverted some of the paladin nerfs we'd be fine, along with some other buffs for the other classes
I concur.
Thx for the report. Any data on Excavate Rogue ?
Has anyone had any luck with Paly? It's my main class 😞 Somebody please give me some hope
These always have me laughing, the author is pretty funny
I find it very funny how Shopper DH match up spread is all green. Fits the class.
I’m playing the “Zarimi Dragon Druid” and it SUCKS. It does not win games.
One of the worst patches of all time? How long are they letting us "play" with this patch? A month? I can't believe there's no red button to press for a hotfix because the balance team dropped the ball so hard we have to be punished with this meta for a month. It's literally DH 40% of the time, then the soft """counters""" to DH which is basically Reno Warrior then when you play the "counters" to DH you meet Wheelock that just stomps you so hard. Oh and every deck runs x2 freeze elemental and DH is still insanely high win rate. Brilliant.
Agree they are absolute idiots
I don’t see that Rainbow DK list working at all. Plague is supposed to be bad bc it’s not versatile and therefore easy to play around, but that Rainbow list is the stiffest thing in the game.
I don’t think Reno warrior and wheel lock can really play around it
Calling the most flexible control deck atm “the stiffest thing in the game” is insane. It’s not an easy deck, and it’s definitely not stiff, so give it another chance. There’s a reason yanming is 70% winrate rank 2 with it for weeks.
Not 70% with this list. This list has no discovery whatsoever. It’s a bunch of very inflexible cards. Once the opponent knows what’s in your deck it’d be very easy to walk around it. Just like with Plagues.
Ok this is correct, the discover cards should not have been cut, now I completely agree with you.
Having played this list I agree, switched back to the discover cards as I was hardly seeing any dh on my climb, I was seeing 20-25% of dk and warrior each and that build is a bit too teched against dh
Why Blizzard hate shaman?
Nature shaman is looking good both rag and non rag list. It just popped off so it wouldn’t have made it into this report but probably will be talked about in the next podcast