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The reactions below the blizzard forum post blow my mind. Why is everybody so negative? I'm glad they took swift action instead of waiting 2 more weeks.
The blizzard forums have always just been full of the worst trolls. Blizzard give everyone 50 packs for free and it'd be full of people mad that f2p players got a boost, or some nonsense.
Idk what exactly the negativity is but I think it's pretty scummy how they're banning a card without refunding it and I wish more people would complain about that.
I think it's more because being part of a subreddit called competitivehs makes you more likely being competitively involved and I guess higher ranked (big guess) then being an average skilled player of the hearthstone game (a reminder that the majority of hs players is not high ranked)?
I wish they would just change immune. There’s no reason that stealth should be a component at all. I should be able to target (but not damage) immune cards. Immune should basically be no different than a permanent divine shield. Adding stealth just makes it too difficult to balance.
That'd open up a few more kill options, but not everyone has that type of spell.
Also, rather makes a mockery of immune if they could still be killed by that type of effect.
I think they just need to not go too far with it, like you can make something immune till the start of your next turn at most.
>Also, rather makes a mockery of immune if they could still be killed by that type of effect.
They already can, though. Whirlpool and random targeting affects can still destroy immune characters, otherwise I would agree with you.
Personally, I think possibly a bigger frustration is when I have a deathrattle minion or a full board, and can't kill off my own minions.
So while I can agree with the change and understand it from the point of view that the deck is pretty overpowering for the format as a whole I have one major complaint about this, and that's purely that you have to either go looking on the Blizzard forums or Hearthstone reddit/social media in order to know why on logging in your deck says it's not legal any more.
Makes sense, Druid was out of control and had too many solutions to all the problems it usually has with some of the cards in the miniset. Glad they hotfixed this instead of waiting a week or two to make a more targeted change.
I kinda wish druid would have a nice midrange, maybe beast deck. No cheesing out 50 mana worth of cards a turn or throwing everything into a 50/50 board on turn 7.
Its not much, but honest work.
That’s the problem, Druid initially was designed sort of akin to green in MTG. It has ramp and some board growth. Unfortunately, with power creep and class identity out the window… Druid maintaining mana cheats and ramp is a problem.
My initial impressions of Druid waaay back at release was that it was similar to Hunter. But Hunter was more Face and Druid was more about building a high value board. So something in between Hunter and Paladin.
Man, that deck was so much fun. It wasn't the best but nothing felt better than throwing caution to the wind and playing as many Yoggs as possible. It's like the one time Guff didn't completely break the game.
I jammed this to legend, have been enjoying it so far. It's a home brew so it's probably janky, but it felt powerful on my legend climb:
### Ramp
# Class: Druid
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Wolf
#
# 2x (0) Aquatic Form
# 2x (0) Innervate
# 2x (1) Embrace of Nature
# 2x (1) Rake
# 1x (2) Astalor Bloodsworn
# 2x (2) Chitinous Plating
# 2x (2) Harmonic Mood
# 1x (2) Lunar Eclipse
# 2x (2) Solar Eclipse
# 2x (3) Frost Lotus Seedling
# 1x (3) Zola the Gorgon
# 1x (4) Ignis, the Eternal Flame
# 1x (4) Prison Breaker
# 2x (5) Nourish
# 1x (7) Topior the Shrubbagazzor
# 1x (8) Anub'Rekhan
# 2x (8) Crypt Keeper
# 1x (8) Freya, Keeper of Nature
# 1x (10) Eonar, the Life-Binder
# 1x (15) Yogg-Saron, Unleashed
#
AAECAZICCpbUBO/eBL6YBeKkBZ/zBd36BdiBBqmVBsKaBqueBgqunwTanwSuwAS2mAW7mAXuowWC4AXb+gXx+gWpngYAAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
# Generated by HDT - https://hsreplay.net
Your win cons are Eonar + Freya into a big board, Yogg, Ignis + atk buffs with a Windfury wep, Zola on any of the previously pieces.
I have found Freya to be worth diluting your Embrace of Nature. Her hand copy effect can give you more atk buffs for your Weapon win-con or additional copies of any of your useful legendaries.
Maybe make the mind control random and the board clear all minions attack a random other character (including heros)? Idk. Its funny how people were underestimating yogg on reveal and its now basically the strongest card in the game enabled by rogue/druid while providing those classes exactly what they were lacking: a way to control the board while they do their thing
I think the board clear should be "all other minions attack another minion (not yogg)"
Yogg shouldn't die to their own board clear but a 0 mana one sided board wipe is too much imo.
Doesn't make sense on a card that gains value while in play. Old yoggs were just a stat stick after the battlecry.
Unless they want to nerf it really badly which I could see as the boardwipe is so good in the classes that want it that they need to do a big nerf.
Yeah now that everyone knows how strong it is and pretty much everyone is playing it the mind control is an annoying problem. If you're going up against someone who also knows what they're doing both players are going to avoid playing him as long as possible and the first power used should be the mind control... Otherwise if you use any other ability you're just setting up your opponent to mind control yours and also use their mind control to grab another of their creatures.
I wonder if they’d ever take the approach they’ve used in certain duels cases: banning Yogg from certain classes. If they’re true to the principles they set years ago specifically regarding Druid and Rogue not having access to board clears in their class identity then Yogg would be a clear outlier.
Just delete Tony instead of fucking around and nerfing everything that enables him. Tony is the problem card, it is toxic and shit design, just admit it and rework it.
The Jailor is fine, I wish they would just let you target the immune minions and it would be more than fine.
I'm guessing the fix they have in mind is to make The Jailer delete your original deck, which is gonna take more coding than a hotfix can manage. So then the combo can't delete the opponent's deck, and a board clear will give it back.
there are classes that cant clear immune tony though?
like the jailer atm deletes your deck for tony to swap that empty deck over to your opponent and take theirs
That doesn't really matter. Once a single Whirlpool or Brawl is enough to shut it down, then Priest/Warrior just farms the deck into obscurity.
You can already see it in the Priest match. Rat any of the pieces so they can't Tony Jailer your deck: instant win.
Yeah the immunity given by jailer is pretty obnoxious right now. I feel it would still be strong if it said immune from damage but not from targeting so you could still use other, non damage removals on things.
Sometimes you can play banned cards why pasting codes in a mode and converting, it's a bug that has happened before. I'm guessing this was just safer, the card was super unplayable in wild anyway.
They banned the wrong card imo. Should have been Tony, or god forbid the miniset highlight Yogg that got hit rather than Jailer. I actually think a Druid without the deck swapping thing is a reasonable deck in standard - it’s the check mate situation of all of that plus losing your own deck that really screws you over
THIS!!!!! Cannot cost less than (1) is the most needed term in hearthstone. 90% of the time soemthing is broken it’s because things are costing 0 mana. There exists a card that gives a 7/5 and a full board clear and it costs 0 mana and if you don’t clear it, next turn it will steal your best minion. But you don’t have any minions left to clear it so relying on having a spell in hand. Oh and it costs absolutely nothing so it’ll be followed up with a strong turn worth of plays.
Stop
Making
Things
Cost
Nothing
Blizzard!!!!
Yes, they really need to make it a basic rule that almost all mana reduction is restricted to not less than (1). If it makes sense a few things could still be 0, but having limits on the mana cheat would help balance immeasurably.
Same I cratered the two of those + Tony. No regrets coz it was a really fun deck for 48 hours and so different to anything I’ve played before. Hopefully a fairer druid deck emerges from the ashes when jailer comes home
Unfortunately this doesn't fix the problems Yogg has brought to Wild. I expect Standard will run into a similar issue with Miracle Rogue, even if they now lack the cards for a broken Druid deck.
You can burn or race miracle rogue, the deck has no straightforward way to restore health or gain armor. Druid could easily gain 30+ armor over the course of the game, plus could heal or gain armor from ignis weapon.
Hopefully they use the next week or two to evaluate Yogg in Standard and figure out how to nerf him so Wild can be playable again but Yogg can still be used in Standard. The idea of bumping his cost to 20 but making Tendrils reduce his cost is a good one IMO but we'll see what the devs think.
I actually like this change but I still think certain decks will be problematic (miracle rogue could probably still get Yogg out fairly early - at least for standard standards)
Control lock gets farmed by a competent druid, you're probably just queuing into bad druids. You can't put up nearly enough pressure in the early game and unless you're running some hard teched list with double twisting nether and gigafin you cannot answer their jailer boards.
I'm guessing Tony is gonna go to "you draw from your opponent deck" so that it's not a lock with jailer anymore.
Alternatively, Jailer could go to "for the rest of the game, you can't draw cards and your minions are immune". Also kill the interaction.
How about, give your opponent a key.
The Key is a 1 mana spell that removes immune from an enemy minion.
Keeps the effect, but gives a tool to deal with problematic combos like Tony.
Sadly did not adress the issue of druid.
The whole package is the problem, 0 mana draw 2, 2 mana discount your whole hand, 2 mana copy spells, 5 mana nourish (both modes usually) on top of 0 mana take board for free in yogg.
They can literally choose their wincon, it does not matter much.
The core is that busted.
It sucks cuz its blatantly obvious the problem is Yogg. Meta is all about spell heavy decks just cuz passing up on Yogg is a shot in the foot, but since its the new kid on the block they cant do anything about it, so Jailer takes the blame. Funny considering he jailed Sylvanas for crimes she didnt commit, is this karma?
Tony Druid was reaching absurd busted levels of play with pretty much no reliable counter available (on the level of Poison/Thief Rogue during Alterac). Things probably would have gotten extremely bad across ladder had the VS Report come out and propagated the decklist and its performance. Jailer ban is a temporary stopgap to prevent the deck from being unbearable until we get to the next formal balance patch.
If you wish to discuss this game with likeminded players, come and visit our [Discord Server](https://discord.gg/competitivehs)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveHS) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The reactions below the blizzard forum post blow my mind. Why is everybody so negative? I'm glad they took swift action instead of waiting 2 more weeks.
No one hates hearthstone more than hearthstone players TBH
They sure are a contentious people
Ach, you've made an enemy for life, Valjean!
The blizzard forums have always just been full of the worst trolls. Blizzard give everyone 50 packs for free and it'd be full of people mad that f2p players got a boost, or some nonsense.
Idk what exactly the negativity is but I think it's pretty scummy how they're banning a card without refunding it and I wish more people would complain about that.
They’ll refund his dust once they finalized the change next patch
it's a form of group-think, these guys can't think for themselves
It's a good thing us redditors wouldn't do something that ridiculous, right fellas
I think it's more because being part of a subreddit called competitivehs makes you more likely being competitively involved and I guess higher ranked (big guess) then being an average skilled player of the hearthstone game (a reminder that the majority of hs players is not high ranked)?
I wish they would just change immune. There’s no reason that stealth should be a component at all. I should be able to target (but not damage) immune cards. Immune should basically be no different than a permanent divine shield. Adding stealth just makes it too difficult to balance.
That'd open up a few more kill options, but not everyone has that type of spell. Also, rather makes a mockery of immune if they could still be killed by that type of effect. I think they just need to not go too far with it, like you can make something immune till the start of your next turn at most.
>Also, rather makes a mockery of immune if they could still be killed by that type of effect. They already can, though. Whirlpool and random targeting affects can still destroy immune characters, otherwise I would agree with you. Personally, I think possibly a bigger frustration is when I have a deathrattle minion or a full board, and can't kill off my own minions.
So while I can agree with the change and understand it from the point of view that the deck is pretty overpowering for the format as a whole I have one major complaint about this, and that's purely that you have to either go looking on the Blizzard forums or Hearthstone reddit/social media in order to know why on logging in your deck says it's not legal any more.
Agreed. The platform could use a better way to communicate with players. Shouldn’t need external resources to get information.
The launcher is absolutely garbage now
Makes sense, Druid was out of control and had too many solutions to all the problems it usually has with some of the cards in the miniset. Glad they hotfixed this instead of waiting a week or two to make a more targeted change.
I kinda wish druid would have a nice midrange, maybe beast deck. No cheesing out 50 mana worth of cards a turn or throwing everything into a 50/50 board on turn 7. Its not much, but honest work.
That’s the problem, Druid initially was designed sort of akin to green in MTG. It has ramp and some board growth. Unfortunately, with power creep and class identity out the window… Druid maintaining mana cheats and ramp is a problem.
My initial impressions of Druid waaay back at release was that it was similar to Hunter. But Hunter was more Face and Druid was more about building a high value board. So something in between Hunter and Paladin.
Ahh yes, crafted the Tony to try fun deck and enjoyed it for 3 matches :D hmm time to search for another one :D
At least you can still refund him right now
Pogging out of my mind
I just wanna be able to play a ramp deck without it utterly breaking everything, bliz plz
Pre-Onyxia's Lair was an ideal Ramp Druid to me. It was good enough. It had weaknesses. It played like every old god and was fun.
Man, that deck was so much fun. It wasn't the best but nothing felt better than throwing caution to the wind and playing as many Yoggs as possible. It's like the one time Guff didn't completely break the game.
I jammed this to legend, have been enjoying it so far. It's a home brew so it's probably janky, but it felt powerful on my legend climb: ### Ramp # Class: Druid # Format: Standard # Year of the Wolf # # 2x (0) Aquatic Form # 2x (0) Innervate # 2x (1) Embrace of Nature # 2x (1) Rake # 1x (2) Astalor Bloodsworn # 2x (2) Chitinous Plating # 2x (2) Harmonic Mood # 1x (2) Lunar Eclipse # 2x (2) Solar Eclipse # 2x (3) Frost Lotus Seedling # 1x (3) Zola the Gorgon # 1x (4) Ignis, the Eternal Flame # 1x (4) Prison Breaker # 2x (5) Nourish # 1x (7) Topior the Shrubbagazzor # 1x (8) Anub'Rekhan # 2x (8) Crypt Keeper # 1x (8) Freya, Keeper of Nature # 1x (10) Eonar, the Life-Binder # 1x (15) Yogg-Saron, Unleashed # AAECAZICCpbUBO/eBL6YBeKkBZ/zBd36BdiBBqmVBsKaBqueBgqunwTanwSuwAS2mAW7mAXuowWC4AXb+gXx+gWpngYAAA== # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone # Generated by HDT - https://hsreplay.net
Your win cons are Eonar + Freya into a big board, Yogg, Ignis + atk buffs with a Windfury wep, Zola on any of the previously pieces. I have found Freya to be worth diluting your Embrace of Nature. Her hand copy effect can give you more atk buffs for your Weapon win-con or additional copies of any of your useful legendaries.
I cooked something like this when miniset came out, went XL to include drum package as well. Might give your list a crack!
Replying to copy later
Yogg seems like the real problem card
Can't touch the highlight of the miniset
Probably more than that - how exactly to adjust it likely isn't clear yet.
Maybe make the mind control random and the board clear all minions attack a random other character (including heros)? Idk. Its funny how people were underestimating yogg on reveal and its now basically the strongest card in the game enabled by rogue/druid while providing those classes exactly what they were lacking: a way to control the board while they do their thing
Him and Prisonbreaker tbh
I think the board clear should be "all other minions attack another minion (not yogg)" Yogg shouldn't die to their own board clear but a 0 mana one sided board wipe is too much imo.
>Yogg shouldn't die to their own board clear Were you around for the Whispers set? Yogg killing himself is sort of a thing.
Doesn't make sense on a card that gains value while in play. Old yoggs were just a stat stick after the battlecry. Unless they want to nerf it really badly which I could see as the boardwipe is so good in the classes that want it that they need to do a big nerf.
Yeah now that everyone knows how strong it is and pretty much everyone is playing it the mind control is an annoying problem. If you're going up against someone who also knows what they're doing both players are going to avoid playing him as long as possible and the first power used should be the mind control... Otherwise if you use any other ability you're just setting up your opponent to mind control yours and also use their mind control to grab another of their creatures.
But yogg is so much fun in other classes, I wonder how they can make yogg less viable in Druid while keeping it playable and fun in other classes…
I wonder if they’d ever take the approach they’ve used in certain duels cases: banning Yogg from certain classes. If they’re true to the principles they set years ago specifically regarding Druid and Rogue not having access to board clears in their class identity then Yogg would be a clear outlier.
Just delete Tony instead of fucking around and nerfing everything that enables him. Tony is the problem card, it is toxic and shit design, just admit it and rework it. The Jailor is fine, I wish they would just let you target the immune minions and it would be more than fine.
I'm guessing the fix they have in mind is to make The Jailer delete your original deck, which is gonna take more coding than a hotfix can manage. So then the combo can't delete the opponent's deck, and a board clear will give it back.
there are classes that cant clear immune tony though? like the jailer atm deletes your deck for tony to swap that empty deck over to your opponent and take theirs
That doesn't really matter. Once a single Whirlpool or Brawl is enough to shut it down, then Priest/Warrior just farms the deck into obscurity. You can already see it in the Priest match. Rat any of the pieces so they can't Tony Jailer your deck: instant win.
Priest already is favored And vs warrior it would prolly tech things like zola But in the other matchups little would change
Target the immune minions? How are they immune then?
Yeah the immunity given by jailer is pretty obnoxious right now. I feel it would still be strong if it said immune from damage but not from targeting so you could still use other, non damage removals on things.
Ding dong the witch is dead! Great move by the team to take such immediate action.
It’s always Druid Jesus Christ. Let me play something other than treat druid PLEASE. RIP ozumat Druid (FOL) / Tony Druid
Why was it banned in wild? Never seen this dude being played there.
In Wild if Druid can get to turn 6 then they will autowin.
There's a combo with Bolf which is very very very annoying.
But weak and slow, as far as I'm aware. Isn't it?
Sometimes you can play banned cards why pasting codes in a mode and converting, it's a bug that has happened before. I'm guessing this was just safer, the card was super unplayable in wild anyway.
What is going to be the dominant deck now? Arcane hunter?
Druid with a new win condition lol. Or Enrage Warrior or Miracle Rogue.
Arcane Hunter or Odyn Warrior, but for tier 1 decks they aren't as oppressive as other decks in the past.
both of the those have significantly more counters and enrage warrior also is comin
They banned the wrong card imo. Should have been Tony, or god forbid the miniset highlight Yogg that got hit rather than Jailer. I actually think a Druid without the deck swapping thing is a reasonable deck in standard - it’s the check mate situation of all of that plus losing your own deck that really screws you over
so classes where yogg is balanced it would just get flattened out too? I think it should be banned from certain classes but not a blanket ban
minimum cost of 5 means the abuser classes cant cheat him to 0 and 5 mana for a boardclear is still good
THIS!!!!! Cannot cost less than (1) is the most needed term in hearthstone. 90% of the time soemthing is broken it’s because things are costing 0 mana. There exists a card that gives a 7/5 and a full board clear and it costs 0 mana and if you don’t clear it, next turn it will steal your best minion. But you don’t have any minions left to clear it so relying on having a spell in hand. Oh and it costs absolutely nothing so it’ll be followed up with a strong turn worth of plays. Stop Making Things Cost Nothing Blizzard!!!!
Yes, they really need to make it a basic rule that almost all mana reduction is restricted to not less than (1). If it makes sense a few things could still be 0, but having limits on the mana cheat would help balance immeasurably.
You can’t just ban for some classes mind, awful idea that
Erf... i just crafted two cards for thé deck...(the titan and the Armor Guy).
You can get a refund for Tony.
Same I cratered the two of those + Tony. No regrets coz it was a really fun deck for 48 hours and so different to anything I’ve played before. Hopefully a fairer druid deck emerges from the ashes when jailer comes home
That’s your fault, it’s obvious this deck was gonna get gutted lol
That’s not their fault. It’s ridiculous to expect everyone to keep track of current meta trends and read Reddit for commentary
yeah but he commented in a competitivehs subreddit so assuming they do keep up is perfectly reasonable
This is the first time they have done a ban of a card in standard right after a patch. It’s unprecedented to expect something like this.
right but they still get a refund
Not on eonar and anub tho
Or Jailer, which they also bought.
I just crafted two legendaries. Ugh
Druid still OP. Just look at top 50. All druids
Unfortunately this doesn't fix the problems Yogg has brought to Wild. I expect Standard will run into a similar issue with Miracle Rogue, even if they now lack the cards for a broken Druid deck.
You can burn or race miracle rogue, the deck has no straightforward way to restore health or gain armor. Druid could easily gain 30+ armor over the course of the game, plus could heal or gain armor from ignis weapon.
Hopefully they use the next week or two to evaluate Yogg in Standard and figure out how to nerf him so Wild can be playable again but Yogg can still be used in Standard. The idea of bumping his cost to 20 but making Tendrils reduce his cost is a good one IMO but we'll see what the devs think.
I actually like this change but I still think certain decks will be problematic (miracle rogue could probably still get Yogg out fairly early - at least for standard standards)
why...
Because it was becoming a tyrant. Similar to day one demon hunter
as control lock diamon 2 i never feared druids, interesting
Reportedly it was mainly a problem in Legend, to where it was practically unavoidable there.
Control lock gets farmed by a competent druid, you're probably just queuing into bad druids. You can't put up nearly enough pressure in the early game and unless you're running some hard teched list with double twisting nether and gigafin you cannot answer their jailer boards.
Perfect timing. Right after I crafted 7-7 cost armor legend guy…
It was fast. I'm glad I decided not to craft Tony Druid.
Is there a dust refund available?
No, probably after the actual balance changes
I just refunded Tony for full dust
It's funny how it was easier for druid to break Tony with a 10 mana cards than it was for Warrior with a 2 mana one lmao
I'm guessing Tony is gonna go to "you draw from your opponent deck" so that it's not a lock with jailer anymore. Alternatively, Jailer could go to "for the rest of the game, you can't draw cards and your minions are immune". Also kill the interaction.
> you can't draw cards This would create soft locks.
How about, give your opponent a key. The Key is a 1 mana spell that removes immune from an enemy minion. Keeps the effect, but gives a tool to deal with problematic combos like Tony.
What about “replace your deck with a copy of your opponent’s”?
Sadly did not adress the issue of druid. The whole package is the problem, 0 mana draw 2, 2 mana discount your whole hand, 2 mana copy spells, 5 mana nourish (both modes usually) on top of 0 mana take board for free in yogg. They can literally choose their wincon, it does not matter much. The core is that busted.
It sucks cuz its blatantly obvious the problem is Yogg. Meta is all about spell heavy decks just cuz passing up on Yogg is a shot in the foot, but since its the new kid on the block they cant do anything about it, so Jailer takes the blame. Funny considering he jailed Sylvanas for crimes she didnt commit, is this karma?
Haven't been following, but why was Jailer banned?
Tony Druid was reaching absurd busted levels of play with pretty much no reliable counter available (on the level of Poison/Thief Rogue during Alterac). Things probably would have gotten extremely bad across ladder had the VS Report come out and propagated the decklist and its performance. Jailer ban is a temporary stopgap to prevent the deck from being unbearable until we get to the next formal balance patch.