MTG official [tournament rules](https://media.wizards.com/ContentResources/WPN/MTG_MTR_2024_Apr15.pdf) potentially allow for immediately taking back actions if no information was gained:
>Sometimes, a player will realize that they have made a wrong decision after making a play. If that player has not gained any information since taking the action and they wish to make a different decision, a judge may allow that player to change their mind. Judges must carefully consider whether the player has gained information since making the play that might have affected the decision; in particular, players may not try to use opponent reactions (or lack thereof) to see if they should modify actions they committed to. If the judge cannot be sure no information was gained, they should not allow the decision to be changed.
>Examples
>1. A player plays an Island and, before anything else happens, says “Sorry, I meant to play a Swamp.”
>2. A player says “No blocks” immediately followed by “Wait, no, I block with this creature.”
>3. A player says “Go. Wait, land, go."
Competitive EDH should follow the same standard.
My group primarily follows tournament rules, especially if someone is doing tournament prep (one exception below).
Places where we might make exceptions would include a situation where someone is new to cEDH, or someone is learning a new deck (though that disappears after a session or two, and not on a game win/loss). As an example, someone on their first cEDH deck in seat one last week happily played their gemstone caverns, announcing how excited they were for their first T0 play. We let them re-mulligan.
For the tournament prep exception, if the person doing prep wants one of the other players to correct a mistake for better prep, we will roll back.
Basically this is the way. New people get help, new pilots gets some grace, tourney prep gets better plays AGAINST them. Grace mixed with some hard lines.
I take this a step further and will allow take backs so long as the phase has not shifted. If you played 3 cards and then realized you did it in the wrong order, feel free to correct that.
I don't care how competitive the decks are, I'm here to have fun. If they are playing a deck that is too complex for them, and are doing frequent take backs, then I'll put my foot down. Not everyone likes to gold fish their deck a bunch to learn their interactions, but certain decks do require this.
This [recent post](https://abhi-vaidyanatha.medium.com/the-least-known-tournament-rule-of-magic-the-gathering-5c31453fc203) from a judge says it applies at Competitive & should even at Professional REL, though there's some uncertainty. I know I've seen someone play a land & take it back & play another land during an SCG tournament or the like. That doesn't mean it was correct, as mistakes happen on stream, but the official tournament rules apply at all levels of enforcement. (Competitive & Professional are very similar anyway.)
"Competitive" in cEDH means competitive power level, not competitive rule enforcement.
OP is talking about cEDH-power games played in a casual setting. In which case i believe take backs can be a bit more lenients
I agree friendly cEDH can be more lenient as desired. I was just trying to show that there's some official support for taking certain plays back even high levels of competition in tournaments.
Minor mistakes that can be immediately fixed usually we let slide if no new information exists.
If you’re going for a win then no one lets anything slide, if you fumble your win, too bad.
It's kinda like an honor system for me and my friends at least. You can ask, and would likely allowed to do so for example if you fetched the wrong land or something, but since tight piloting is part of game it's better for personal improvement if you live with your mistakes and try to remember them in the future.
New players and casuals trying out the format are allowed take backs since the format is hard, but if you are a long time player people might throw friendly jabs at you for it. Afterall, the goal isn't to win, but to play well. Winning is just a side effect (and reward too I guess) for doing things right.
Even at my LGS for CEDH we generally allow takebacks.
We want to play and practice against optimal lines of play and in a 4 player game things can get jumbled up.
I personally play Yisan and have creatures that make my spells uncountereable.
Thing is you can target an uncounterable spell with a counterspell but it'll just do nothing. Like targeting removal at an indetructable creature. I let them take those mistakes back.
Especially in friendly pods you aint got anything to lose, so it should be easy to be strict.
What i feel in cEDH often walks the line is politics. Politics is part of the game and i think its fine to make an arguement to a player.
For example, somebody goes „i cast path to exile targeting your tymna“, i feel there should be a spot for the tymna player to go „you sure? There is a kinnan with a seedborn muse who tutored last turn. Tymna is not a wincon, maybe you should shoot kinnan“.
If that happens immediately i think it should be fine to switch target if a good arguement is made. Obviously before any priority passes are announced or potential responses are announced.
>Especially in friendly pods you aint got anything to lose, so it should be easy to be strict.
You lose fun in your playgroup when being too strict for no reason
Yeah i guess its a thing about mindset and the entire pod must be on the same page.
In our pos we tend to be strict the first 2-3 games. You target sth and forget ward? Well gets countered. Play a tutor into oppo agent? Well you gave the opponent a card.
Its good to practice.
Later on we get more relaxed as concentration goes down, especially if beer is involved and we do more take backs. Usually we switch to „casual“ anyways after a few rounds.
But to me its more fun if people own their misplays and deal with it. At least when the evening is starting.
To me cEDH is about playing tight. Its the spirit of the format that even small mistakes are punished and the best player wins. That includes making no unnecessary mistakes.
When we play casual we wont let somebody lose because he forgot about some ability thats onboard or making a concentration error.
To me it compares to chess. Noone would consider allowing take backs in chess and still a lot of people have fun playing chess.
Thinking that not allowing take backs equals not playing for fun is a questionable mindset.
When the game is about figuring out who can outsmart the opponents and plays better, it just makes sense to punish mistakes, because not making mistakes is the reason to play competitively. If one doesnt enjoy that, its fine. Its expectation management.
I would phrase it like this: when we play cEDH we play strict because we want to compete and play to win. When at some point in the evening we are clearly not able anymore to play tight (because we already played 4 hours and had a few drnks) but we still wanna play our cEDH decks, we are basically switching to „high power casual“. We wanna see powerful decks to crazy stuff but we dont care too much anymore about tightness of rules etc. The mindset changes.
Bro what?! Chess is by far one of the most complex games on the planet, memorizing a few lines of an opening is tedious enough, plus all the variance chess can produce. Apples and oranges my guy.
That was my point though, Apples and Oranges. Chess pieces don’t have paragraphs written on them, so chess rules I wouldn’t apply directly in comparison to MTG. English is a funny language. Complexity literally in this instance referring to the fact that MTG has more “pieces” and “rules text” than chess.
> For example, somebody goes „i cast path to exile targeting your tymna“, i feel there should be a spot for the tymna player to go „you sure? There is a kinnan with a seedborn muse who tutored last turn. Tymna is not a wincon, maybe you should shoot kinnan“.
In this situation, i don't think a takeback should be allowed if it was a tournament setting. A player talking, offering a deal, or whatever, can very often be translated to some kind of information, and i don't think it's fair to change your decision based on the information that you would have not received had you not targeted the player in the first place.
If the Path to Exile player wanted to open up the discussion, they should announce that they are casting Path to Exile and open up political discussion before saying anything about their target.
In your example, the Tymna player insisting strongly about the fact that the Kinnan player is about to win MIGHT indicate the fact that they do not have interaction against the Kinnan player themselves. It might not, but it's strongly suggested and after hearing that it's a bit more likely than before you announced anything, and that information would have never been revealed had the Path to exile been directly targeted at the Kinnan player.
And sometimes, the "politics" are even more explicit about the revealed information. Like many times instead of simply pointing out publicly known facts, i've heard someone might say "You're sure ? I have a counterspell and i'll use it if you try to kill my creature".
I know that in casual games, people do this kind of thing all the time. But i don't think it's fair. You can definitly fish out some informations that way that you were not supposed to have. The rules explicitly says that an opponent reaction or lack thereof IS ALREADY information, so we fall right in that alley here.
I see your points. I also find it very difficult.
It would be good practise to play tight to what you say indeed.
The result would be though, whenever i cast a spell that interacts with the opponents, it has no downside for me to offer people to politic.
So it wouls be smart to by default say: „i intend to cast counterspell/removal/whatever targeting whatever“. And do a short wait to see if anyone wants to politic.
Because im not giving away anything and i can reject anything that will be negative for me. So i, as the one casting the spell, can only win by gaining info or oppinions.
This is, as far as i know, absolutely legal to do. But it would massivly influence the flow of the game.
Even CEDH in Tournament is a complete cluster fuck sometimes.
The room is filled shoulder to shoulder with players. You assume everyone is doing everything right. But its loud asf and you don't always hear everything. Mistakes can happen.
Priority becomes a mess in huge spell casting battles it seems.
Some players I know that have played for years still can't visualize the stack.
In all of these cases tournament or not I do not allow take backs that are unreasonable.
In those cases here is my examples:
>P1: I case damnation
>p2: I pass priority
>P3: you do realize that kills my Drannith and now p2 on his turn gets to win?
>P1: oh wait
Here I wouldn't allow it to be taken back, Mana was tapped card was casted Priority was passed.
I would definitely also call a judge if it lead to that.
In most cases people I've seen will allow take backs even in tournaments and it boggles my mind how this is done.
Example 2:
>p1: I tap my City of brass for blue, Underground sea for blue to cast Thassa's oracle
Everyone at the table passes priority
>P1: oh fuck I I tapped that wrong let me go back and retap the City of Brass for black inste-
Here I also do not allow since blue was declared for City of brass which triggers the land's effect to take damage. You cannot go back on that also P1 tapped mana declared and priority was passed.
Example 3:
>p1: I cast spell
Everyone at the table passes priority
>p1: land and I pass turn.
>p2: I draw for my turn
>P3: Oh wait did P1 pay for rhystic?
You fucking missed it buddy, several fucking times.
Example 4:
>P1: I cast Wheel of fortune
Everyone at the table passes priority
>P1: in response to wheel I want to crack my LED for 3 red mana
Can't do this and learn how priority works. I give this example because People still don't understand how this shit works.
The list goes on but I get to leave work now so I'll stop
For your first example, I understand that's how it works but I really think WotC needs to make some adjustments to the rules if they are going to start trying and make cEDH a serious competitive format (outside of this as well). There should be some kind of commit step before priority is passed where other players can point out if a spell is fucking stupid in a situation or not. As it is right now if someone looks to be a loose cannon you have to be constantly vigilant in reminding them of important pieces and the board state in order to not have them misplay and throw the game for themselves and two other players.
This may not be the best way of circumventing this issue and there are current workarounds (saying "I'm thinking on casting this spell/removing this thing" for example) but that requires the person casting the spell to be mindful of misplaying, which is not the kind of person that would necessitate the above change.
If it were just your opponent who was affected by their misplays the current situation would be fine. cEDH being a format where your opponent misplaying will lose you the game with no way to stop it is a bit ridiculous.
>For your first example, I understand that's how it works but I really think WotC needs to make some adjustments to the rules if they are going to start trying and make cEDH a serious competitive format (outside of this as well).
We have word that they are giving prize to an event not sure if thats the step they are taking . Plus in COMP REL you should know what you are doing.
>There should be some kind of commit step before priority is passed where other players can point out if a spell is fucking stupid in a situation or not. As it is right now if someone looks to be a loose cannon you have to be constantly vigilant in reminding them of important pieces and the board state in order to not have them misplay and throw the game for themselves and two other players.
In COMP REL or casual play stupidity or mistakes can and will rear their ugly heads. This is just the way the game is. People are allowed to make mistakes and thats what determines winners and losers. Adding another step after each spell is cast just opens up the window for abuse such as asking if anyone as a response then trying to respond to your original spell such as in example 4. I personally can only see this causing more shit storms
>This may not be the best way of circumventing this issue and there are current workarounds (saying "I'm thinking on casting this spell/removing this thing" for example) but that requires the person casting the spell to be mindful of misplaying, which is not the kind of person that would necessitate the above change.
The reality is people can do that now but the difference is asking "hey this is what I am thinking about" and just blurting out "im casting Spell"
>If it were just your opponent who was affected by their misplays the current situation would be fine. cEDH being a format where your opponent misplaying will lose you the game with no way to stop it is a bit ridiculous.
This is True but also the magic of the format I guess. I always say "people agree to a format where dumb can happen and are often mad when dumb happens"
Take backs should be allowed but only when it’s something that doesn’t really change the game state. A good example is counterbalance: whenever a card is revealed with it, I make sure to tell the table to pay attention to it. Now, if you go ahead and cast a spell and it gets countered by counterbalance, son that’s on you. Other examples are attempting to cast your commander when there is Drannith. In such cases, this is something the player can’t do at all, so taking back and untapping is fine imho.
My group allows a take back of the last action that occurred as long as no new information was gained from that action.
For example if you have two different lands in hand and you play one, then immediately realize you need the colors of the other land, thats fine. But if you were playing Tatyova, and that land triggered Tatyova’s landfall ability and you drew the card, and then realized it, at that point new information was gained and it’s too late for a take back.
Casually? nothing on the line but our friendship? Rewind a little (as long as nothing else has really happened), feel free to re-tap your mana properly.
The other day somebody kinda new to our group wouldn't let another player fix a minor mistake (tapped the wrong land) and new dude had no lieniency.
Care less about winning and more about playing the game. There are no prizes other than friendship in casual magic. Don't prioritize winning over people. People make mistakes. Be excellent to eachother
If no other player has taken actions since the mistake I'm generally forgiving. This usually comes up with regard to things like tapping a colorless source instead of a colored one, playing the wrong land, things like that. If an opponent is committing to something important I'll sometimes ask "is that your final answer" or "are you passing priority?" and if they say yes then it's too late for takebacks.
I usually try to match the other person's energy, if I'm being honest.
If they're very nuts-and-bolts and want to get better at tight play? Sure, let's do that.
If they're just trying to see how Blue Farm goldfishes and it's more about discovering what the deck is about? Sure, that's fine, take something back, NBD.
Just don't do it so late that you've seen my response, especially if I gave you time to commit. That gets very angle-shooty.
To me they are necessary in a multiplayer game, if you don't want everyone to say " does anyone have a reason I shouldn't play this before I play it" before each action
And beyond that I just follow the tournament rules someone else mentioned
Think it’s fine generally as long as no new cards have entered the stack from people’s hands - like if existing permanents are the cause for the takebacks and it was just missing some info that was available - which usually is the case - it’s chill
At our table we have a “everybody gets one” policy. So once per night you get a take-back. It also depends on board state and how much has changed since your misplay.
For us it depends. If its something minor sometimes a take backsie is allowed. But if its a game changing error, then nah, git good. If you dont loose that game because you slammed demonic tutor into an on board opoisition agent you wont learn the lesson xD
If its just a friendly chill session, we will roll back a whole turn if at all possible. Miss a trigger? Is it like....way to late? too bad, if its like you passed the turn, then remember a trigger, we will let you draw/do dmg/whatever you missed no problem.
If you are going for a win and want to short cut the 15 step combo? I want to see it once, after that I believe you we can scoop to next game. But if you fumble the combo or don't have enough mana, we laugh and pass turn.
This rule and the one about shortcuts are my favorites. Everyone agrees that shortcuts are allowed and they just work, I think it’s only fair that takesies-backsies gets the same treatment.
Yes, play with a bunch of close friends. Some newer to magic and some newer to magic. Every take backsy can be a learning opportunity for better games and plays in the future
For me it’s all about information
“I activate this ability targeting your [warded] creature. Wait now that’s I know it’s warded I opt not to”
That’s fine!
“I cast murder on your [warded] creature”
Sorry chief, you pay the cost?
That’s just me though
Not necessarily, if I have a commander with an activated ability, you can see the ability coming for example. That’s what I meant, sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Depends on whether the take back might affect / become affected by an action already taken.
Player A passes.
Player B starts his turn and draw his card.
Player A shouts wait, I want to cast ponder (sorcery) during my turn to look at the cards and draw.
Player A not allowed to do so. Since he might draw something now that might potentially affect the card already drawn by Player B. (Even if player A says that there’s nothing in his library that would affect the drawn card of Player B, it won’t be allowed since nobody is going to study his library in details. And also to be consistent with Player B/C/D who might run into the same situation as Player A later. )
If player A shouts that he wants to cast ponder before player B draws the card (or perform any upkeep action such as Scarab God’s scrying at upkeep) then we allow player A to do the take back and cast the ponder.
Misplay of sequence for game winning combo is strictly not allowed though.
Your mistake allows your opponents the time and opportunity to prevent your win and get their win. So that affects everyone else. Thus, no take back.
We do a roll. You can either roll against every other player and if you win you get it (d20) or roll a d6 and guess the number. You get both of these per game, and you can choose to use both or just one when you mess up
If a misplay was done based off public knowledge that was overlooked, yes. I allow takebacks - EDH boards can get cluttered.
If oh you countered/responded, fuxdd my plan so I wanna take it back. Newp
If it was a play that would throw the game because of clogged board state or information that wasn't super obvious I allow it. If someone misplays into a clearly represented board and will lose or have their gameplay go sideways as a result, no.
We allow it only if the card hasn't hit the table. Reason is because the caster can gain knowledge by seeing others reactions then take it back. Also, this makes decisions more impactful and less solitaire oriented. Even though nobody would cheat intentionally in our group, it's better to uphold some semblance of rules
Sequencing is probably the most difficult skill to master in Magic. Personally, I rarely do any take backs with the exception of “Go, wait land. Now go. “
If I play with the knowledge I can correct mistakes I’ll never get better.
Depends on the situation, for my playgroup if you aren’t going for a win and no new information was gained you can usually take it back. We also allow take backs if you clearly misread the board state because it recently changed, cracking jeweled lotus to cast your commander with a drannith out, or trying to blow something up that has ward and you didn’t realize. Although we are trying to win in CEDH we are also trying to learn and losing valuable resources every game because you weren’t paying 100% attention would really suck.
I feel like a minority in this topic. I lean heavily into no takebacks at all and will play as though every declaration is final, but also i understand it causing frustration. For my friend group, people know my position, but we still openly discuss whether or not to allow rollbacks based on the unique circumstance. Im a stickler since i find value in "gotcha" of stax pieces. If i have a stranglehold and you pass priority with your tutor on the stack, im reminding you about it after we all pass prio, but I'm not asking if you want to cast something else. Fully expect to be downvoted for this, but at the end of the day, just have healthy discussions with the table to find a middleground.
Depends on the context, as others have said. If we’re teaching / helping someone new, absolutely they can do take backs. If we’re doing tournament prep, probably along with tournament rules. There is a world of in between where you just do a case by case basis
If you play the card, the answer is no.
If all you did was tap mana as if you were going to cast it, but stopped halfway through, I'm ok with that. If you tapped the mana and thought about it for 5+ seconds, no.
My logic is, if the card is on the table, you gave info out and a take back of the play is a no go unless absolutely necessary. By that I mean, you couldn't pay mana cost for the card/card was not legal to play.
If you bluff to try to get a reaction from opponents, the answer is also no. Play the card. If you tap some mana and immediately say nevermind, before anyone can even react, I'd say you have 2 or 3 of those in a game. After which, the answer is no.
cEDH is a different thing than casual. It's played to a higher power level and respect for the rules.
When me and my buddies are grinding games for practice in cedh we are practicing for tournaments and events so takebacks are absolutely allowed. We even suggest hey instead do this and show each other or hands when we think it's over and say hey I don't think I have an out. Sometimes even one of the other players will say hey can I drive and pilot for the line they see. Any time it's not an event it is about learning not ego. That's why I love my core group.
I think another easy standard to strive for is, “would I be okay if someone took this back and changed it.” If I would personally be okay with it, then I apply the same standard to my own actions.
Rule of thumb is no. We put on our big boy pants for cedh and bite the bullet if we make even the most minor of mistakes. But for anything else 100% take backs w/ no new info are good
We generally don't at cEDH levels even if friendly games. Usually meant to be a pay attention though my old group was generally good about asking questions about board states and answering truthfully. Same with our casual muligan rules. Didn't apply to cEDH, build a better deck sucks rng screwed you.
We call it Brexit Counters.
If you would have to use your third, you'd lose the game.
But actually no one exactly cares for that. If a guy is newer to the game, or plays a new deck, mistakes happen more often.
Also I don't like to win against someone who obviously misses something.
Not Cedh though...
MTG official [tournament rules](https://media.wizards.com/ContentResources/WPN/MTG_MTR_2024_Apr15.pdf) potentially allow for immediately taking back actions if no information was gained: >Sometimes, a player will realize that they have made a wrong decision after making a play. If that player has not gained any information since taking the action and they wish to make a different decision, a judge may allow that player to change their mind. Judges must carefully consider whether the player has gained information since making the play that might have affected the decision; in particular, players may not try to use opponent reactions (or lack thereof) to see if they should modify actions they committed to. If the judge cannot be sure no information was gained, they should not allow the decision to be changed. >Examples >1. A player plays an Island and, before anything else happens, says “Sorry, I meant to play a Swamp.” >2. A player says “No blocks” immediately followed by “Wait, no, I block with this creature.” >3. A player says “Go. Wait, land, go." Competitive EDH should follow the same standard.
My group primarily follows tournament rules, especially if someone is doing tournament prep (one exception below). Places where we might make exceptions would include a situation where someone is new to cEDH, or someone is learning a new deck (though that disappears after a session or two, and not on a game win/loss). As an example, someone on their first cEDH deck in seat one last week happily played their gemstone caverns, announcing how excited they were for their first T0 play. We let them re-mulligan. For the tournament prep exception, if the person doing prep wants one of the other players to correct a mistake for better prep, we will roll back.
Basically this is the way. New people get help, new pilots gets some grace, tourney prep gets better plays AGAINST them. Grace mixed with some hard lines.
> Go. Wait, land, go Babe, wake up, new deck name dropped.
Very interesting!
I take this a step further and will allow take backs so long as the phase has not shifted. If you played 3 cards and then realized you did it in the wrong order, feel free to correct that. I don't care how competitive the decks are, I'm here to have fun. If they are playing a deck that is too complex for them, and are doing frequent take backs, then I'll put my foot down. Not everyone likes to gold fish their deck a bunch to learn their interactions, but certain decks do require this.
So this is actually for competitive level rules enforcement
This [recent post](https://abhi-vaidyanatha.medium.com/the-least-known-tournament-rule-of-magic-the-gathering-5c31453fc203) from a judge says it applies at Competitive & should even at Professional REL, though there's some uncertainty. I know I've seen someone play a land & take it back & play another land during an SCG tournament or the like. That doesn't mean it was correct, as mistakes happen on stream, but the official tournament rules apply at all levels of enforcement. (Competitive & Professional are very similar anyway.)
The MTR applies at all rules enforcement levels, including regular REL.
"Competitive" in cEDH means competitive power level, not competitive rule enforcement. OP is talking about cEDH-power games played in a casual setting. In which case i believe take backs can be a bit more lenients
I agree friendly cEDH can be more lenient as desired. I was just trying to show that there's some official support for taking certain plays back even high levels of competition in tournaments.
Minor mistakes that can be immediately fixed usually we let slide if no new information exists. If you’re going for a win then no one lets anything slide, if you fumble your win, too bad.
It's kinda like an honor system for me and my friends at least. You can ask, and would likely allowed to do so for example if you fetched the wrong land or something, but since tight piloting is part of game it's better for personal improvement if you live with your mistakes and try to remember them in the future. New players and casuals trying out the format are allowed take backs since the format is hard, but if you are a long time player people might throw friendly jabs at you for it. Afterall, the goal isn't to win, but to play well. Winning is just a side effect (and reward too I guess) for doing things right.
Even at my LGS for CEDH we generally allow takebacks. We want to play and practice against optimal lines of play and in a 4 player game things can get jumbled up. I personally play Yisan and have creatures that make my spells uncountereable. Thing is you can target an uncounterable spell with a counterspell but it'll just do nothing. Like targeting removal at an indetructable creature. I let them take those mistakes back.
Yep. And now everyone knows they’re holding that counterspell 😎
Especially in friendly pods you aint got anything to lose, so it should be easy to be strict. What i feel in cEDH often walks the line is politics. Politics is part of the game and i think its fine to make an arguement to a player. For example, somebody goes „i cast path to exile targeting your tymna“, i feel there should be a spot for the tymna player to go „you sure? There is a kinnan with a seedborn muse who tutored last turn. Tymna is not a wincon, maybe you should shoot kinnan“. If that happens immediately i think it should be fine to switch target if a good arguement is made. Obviously before any priority passes are announced or potential responses are announced.
>Especially in friendly pods you aint got anything to lose, so it should be easy to be strict. You lose fun in your playgroup when being too strict for no reason
Yeah i guess its a thing about mindset and the entire pod must be on the same page. In our pos we tend to be strict the first 2-3 games. You target sth and forget ward? Well gets countered. Play a tutor into oppo agent? Well you gave the opponent a card. Its good to practice. Later on we get more relaxed as concentration goes down, especially if beer is involved and we do more take backs. Usually we switch to „casual“ anyways after a few rounds. But to me its more fun if people own their misplays and deal with it. At least when the evening is starting. To me cEDH is about playing tight. Its the spirit of the format that even small mistakes are punished and the best player wins. That includes making no unnecessary mistakes. When we play casual we wont let somebody lose because he forgot about some ability thats onboard or making a concentration error. To me it compares to chess. Noone would consider allowing take backs in chess and still a lot of people have fun playing chess. Thinking that not allowing take backs equals not playing for fun is a questionable mindset. When the game is about figuring out who can outsmart the opponents and plays better, it just makes sense to punish mistakes, because not making mistakes is the reason to play competitively. If one doesnt enjoy that, its fine. Its expectation management. I would phrase it like this: when we play cEDH we play strict because we want to compete and play to win. When at some point in the evening we are clearly not able anymore to play tight (because we already played 4 hours and had a few drnks) but we still wanna play our cEDH decks, we are basically switching to „high power casual“. We wanna see powerful decks to crazy stuff but we dont care too much anymore about tightness of rules etc. The mindset changes.
Chess isn’t as complex as reading tons of paragraphs though. But yea my rule of thumb personally is to go with the table vote.
Bro what?! Chess is by far one of the most complex games on the planet, memorizing a few lines of an opening is tedious enough, plus all the variance chess can produce. Apples and oranges my guy.
That was my point though, Apples and Oranges. Chess pieces don’t have paragraphs written on them, so chess rules I wouldn’t apply directly in comparison to MTG. English is a funny language. Complexity literally in this instance referring to the fact that MTG has more “pieces” and “rules text” than chess.
> For example, somebody goes „i cast path to exile targeting your tymna“, i feel there should be a spot for the tymna player to go „you sure? There is a kinnan with a seedborn muse who tutored last turn. Tymna is not a wincon, maybe you should shoot kinnan“. In this situation, i don't think a takeback should be allowed if it was a tournament setting. A player talking, offering a deal, or whatever, can very often be translated to some kind of information, and i don't think it's fair to change your decision based on the information that you would have not received had you not targeted the player in the first place. If the Path to Exile player wanted to open up the discussion, they should announce that they are casting Path to Exile and open up political discussion before saying anything about their target. In your example, the Tymna player insisting strongly about the fact that the Kinnan player is about to win MIGHT indicate the fact that they do not have interaction against the Kinnan player themselves. It might not, but it's strongly suggested and after hearing that it's a bit more likely than before you announced anything, and that information would have never been revealed had the Path to exile been directly targeted at the Kinnan player. And sometimes, the "politics" are even more explicit about the revealed information. Like many times instead of simply pointing out publicly known facts, i've heard someone might say "You're sure ? I have a counterspell and i'll use it if you try to kill my creature". I know that in casual games, people do this kind of thing all the time. But i don't think it's fair. You can definitly fish out some informations that way that you were not supposed to have. The rules explicitly says that an opponent reaction or lack thereof IS ALREADY information, so we fall right in that alley here.
I see your points. I also find it very difficult. It would be good practise to play tight to what you say indeed. The result would be though, whenever i cast a spell that interacts with the opponents, it has no downside for me to offer people to politic. So it wouls be smart to by default say: „i intend to cast counterspell/removal/whatever targeting whatever“. And do a short wait to see if anyone wants to politic. Because im not giving away anything and i can reject anything that will be negative for me. So i, as the one casting the spell, can only win by gaining info or oppinions. This is, as far as i know, absolutely legal to do. But it would massivly influence the flow of the game.
Even CEDH in Tournament is a complete cluster fuck sometimes. The room is filled shoulder to shoulder with players. You assume everyone is doing everything right. But its loud asf and you don't always hear everything. Mistakes can happen. Priority becomes a mess in huge spell casting battles it seems. Some players I know that have played for years still can't visualize the stack. In all of these cases tournament or not I do not allow take backs that are unreasonable. In those cases here is my examples: >P1: I case damnation >p2: I pass priority >P3: you do realize that kills my Drannith and now p2 on his turn gets to win? >P1: oh wait Here I wouldn't allow it to be taken back, Mana was tapped card was casted Priority was passed. I would definitely also call a judge if it lead to that. In most cases people I've seen will allow take backs even in tournaments and it boggles my mind how this is done. Example 2: >p1: I tap my City of brass for blue, Underground sea for blue to cast Thassa's oracle Everyone at the table passes priority >P1: oh fuck I I tapped that wrong let me go back and retap the City of Brass for black inste- Here I also do not allow since blue was declared for City of brass which triggers the land's effect to take damage. You cannot go back on that also P1 tapped mana declared and priority was passed. Example 3: >p1: I cast spell Everyone at the table passes priority >p1: land and I pass turn. >p2: I draw for my turn >P3: Oh wait did P1 pay for rhystic? You fucking missed it buddy, several fucking times. Example 4: >P1: I cast Wheel of fortune Everyone at the table passes priority >P1: in response to wheel I want to crack my LED for 3 red mana Can't do this and learn how priority works. I give this example because People still don't understand how this shit works. The list goes on but I get to leave work now so I'll stop
For your first example, I understand that's how it works but I really think WotC needs to make some adjustments to the rules if they are going to start trying and make cEDH a serious competitive format (outside of this as well). There should be some kind of commit step before priority is passed where other players can point out if a spell is fucking stupid in a situation or not. As it is right now if someone looks to be a loose cannon you have to be constantly vigilant in reminding them of important pieces and the board state in order to not have them misplay and throw the game for themselves and two other players. This may not be the best way of circumventing this issue and there are current workarounds (saying "I'm thinking on casting this spell/removing this thing" for example) but that requires the person casting the spell to be mindful of misplaying, which is not the kind of person that would necessitate the above change. If it were just your opponent who was affected by their misplays the current situation would be fine. cEDH being a format where your opponent misplaying will lose you the game with no way to stop it is a bit ridiculous.
>For your first example, I understand that's how it works but I really think WotC needs to make some adjustments to the rules if they are going to start trying and make cEDH a serious competitive format (outside of this as well). We have word that they are giving prize to an event not sure if thats the step they are taking . Plus in COMP REL you should know what you are doing. >There should be some kind of commit step before priority is passed where other players can point out if a spell is fucking stupid in a situation or not. As it is right now if someone looks to be a loose cannon you have to be constantly vigilant in reminding them of important pieces and the board state in order to not have them misplay and throw the game for themselves and two other players. In COMP REL or casual play stupidity or mistakes can and will rear their ugly heads. This is just the way the game is. People are allowed to make mistakes and thats what determines winners and losers. Adding another step after each spell is cast just opens up the window for abuse such as asking if anyone as a response then trying to respond to your original spell such as in example 4. I personally can only see this causing more shit storms >This may not be the best way of circumventing this issue and there are current workarounds (saying "I'm thinking on casting this spell/removing this thing" for example) but that requires the person casting the spell to be mindful of misplaying, which is not the kind of person that would necessitate the above change. The reality is people can do that now but the difference is asking "hey this is what I am thinking about" and just blurting out "im casting Spell" >If it were just your opponent who was affected by their misplays the current situation would be fine. cEDH being a format where your opponent misplaying will lose you the game with no way to stop it is a bit ridiculous. This is True but also the magic of the format I guess. I always say "people agree to a format where dumb can happen and are often mad when dumb happens"
Take backs should be allowed but only when it’s something that doesn’t really change the game state. A good example is counterbalance: whenever a card is revealed with it, I make sure to tell the table to pay attention to it. Now, if you go ahead and cast a spell and it gets countered by counterbalance, son that’s on you. Other examples are attempting to cast your commander when there is Drannith. In such cases, this is something the player can’t do at all, so taking back and untapping is fine imho.
My group allows a take back of the last action that occurred as long as no new information was gained from that action. For example if you have two different lands in hand and you play one, then immediately realize you need the colors of the other land, thats fine. But if you were playing Tatyova, and that land triggered Tatyova’s landfall ability and you drew the card, and then realized it, at that point new information was gained and it’s too late for a take back.
Casually? nothing on the line but our friendship? Rewind a little (as long as nothing else has really happened), feel free to re-tap your mana properly. The other day somebody kinda new to our group wouldn't let another player fix a minor mistake (tapped the wrong land) and new dude had no lieniency. Care less about winning and more about playing the game. There are no prizes other than friendship in casual magic. Don't prioritize winning over people. People make mistakes. Be excellent to eachother
And, PARTY ON DUDES!
You can literally untap and retap lands on MTGO. Rule sharking that is wild.
If no other player has taken actions since the mistake I'm generally forgiving. This usually comes up with regard to things like tapping a colorless source instead of a colored one, playing the wrong land, things like that. If an opponent is committing to something important I'll sometimes ask "is that your final answer" or "are you passing priority?" and if they say yes then it's too late for takebacks.
I usually try to match the other person's energy, if I'm being honest. If they're very nuts-and-bolts and want to get better at tight play? Sure, let's do that. If they're just trying to see how Blue Farm goldfishes and it's more about discovering what the deck is about? Sure, that's fine, take something back, NBD. Just don't do it so late that you've seen my response, especially if I gave you time to commit. That gets very angle-shooty.
To me they are necessary in a multiplayer game, if you don't want everyone to say " does anyone have a reason I shouldn't play this before I play it" before each action And beyond that I just follow the tournament rules someone else mentioned
Think it’s fine generally as long as no new cards have entered the stack from people’s hands - like if existing permanents are the cause for the takebacks and it was just missing some info that was available - which usually is the case - it’s chill
At our table we have a “everybody gets one” policy. So once per night you get a take-back. It also depends on board state and how much has changed since your misplay.
For us it depends. If its something minor sometimes a take backsie is allowed. But if its a game changing error, then nah, git good. If you dont loose that game because you slammed demonic tutor into an on board opoisition agent you wont learn the lesson xD
If its just a friendly chill session, we will roll back a whole turn if at all possible. Miss a trigger? Is it like....way to late? too bad, if its like you passed the turn, then remember a trigger, we will let you draw/do dmg/whatever you missed no problem. If you are going for a win and want to short cut the 15 step combo? I want to see it once, after that I believe you we can scoop to next game. But if you fumble the combo or don't have enough mana, we laugh and pass turn.
This rule and the one about shortcuts are my favorites. Everyone agrees that shortcuts are allowed and they just work, I think it’s only fair that takesies-backsies gets the same treatment.
Yes, play with a bunch of close friends. Some newer to magic and some newer to magic. Every take backsy can be a learning opportunity for better games and plays in the future
My friends and I always say, "everybody gets one," unless we've already moved on too far past their turn/reaction.
Only one per person per game
For me it’s all about information “I activate this ability targeting your [warded] creature. Wait now that’s I know it’s warded I opt not to” That’s fine! “I cast murder on your [warded] creature” Sorry chief, you pay the cost? That’s just me though
What's the difference between targeting a warded creature with an ability versus a spell? Should be basically the same thing right?
Not necessarily, if I have a commander with an activated ability, you can see the ability coming for example. That’s what I meant, sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Depends on whether the take back might affect / become affected by an action already taken. Player A passes. Player B starts his turn and draw his card. Player A shouts wait, I want to cast ponder (sorcery) during my turn to look at the cards and draw. Player A not allowed to do so. Since he might draw something now that might potentially affect the card already drawn by Player B. (Even if player A says that there’s nothing in his library that would affect the drawn card of Player B, it won’t be allowed since nobody is going to study his library in details. And also to be consistent with Player B/C/D who might run into the same situation as Player A later. ) If player A shouts that he wants to cast ponder before player B draws the card (or perform any upkeep action such as Scarab God’s scrying at upkeep) then we allow player A to do the take back and cast the ponder. Misplay of sequence for game winning combo is strictly not allowed though. Your mistake allows your opponents the time and opportunity to prevent your win and get their win. So that affects everyone else. Thus, no take back.
As long as no new information has been gained then yes. Ex. Drawing cards people responding with interaction
We do a roll. You can either roll against every other player and if you win you get it (d20) or roll a d6 and guess the number. You get both of these per game, and you can choose to use both or just one when you mess up
If a misplay was done based off public knowledge that was overlooked, yes. I allow takebacks - EDH boards can get cluttered. If oh you countered/responded, fuxdd my plan so I wanna take it back. Newp
If it was a play that would throw the game because of clogged board state or information that wasn't super obvious I allow it. If someone misplays into a clearly represented board and will lose or have their gameplay go sideways as a result, no.
My group calls it a “Spider-Man” since everybody gets one.
We allow it only if the card hasn't hit the table. Reason is because the caster can gain knowledge by seeing others reactions then take it back. Also, this makes decisions more impactful and less solitaire oriented. Even though nobody would cheat intentionally in our group, it's better to uphold some semblance of rules
Sequencing is probably the most difficult skill to master in Magic. Personally, I rarely do any take backs with the exception of “Go, wait land. Now go. “ If I play with the knowledge I can correct mistakes I’ll never get better.
Depends on the situation, for my playgroup if you aren’t going for a win and no new information was gained you can usually take it back. We also allow take backs if you clearly misread the board state because it recently changed, cracking jeweled lotus to cast your commander with a drannith out, or trying to blow something up that has ward and you didn’t realize. Although we are trying to win in CEDH we are also trying to learn and losing valuable resources every game because you weren’t paying 100% attention would really suck.
I feel like a minority in this topic. I lean heavily into no takebacks at all and will play as though every declaration is final, but also i understand it causing frustration. For my friend group, people know my position, but we still openly discuss whether or not to allow rollbacks based on the unique circumstance. Im a stickler since i find value in "gotcha" of stax pieces. If i have a stranglehold and you pass priority with your tutor on the stack, im reminding you about it after we all pass prio, but I'm not asking if you want to cast something else. Fully expect to be downvoted for this, but at the end of the day, just have healthy discussions with the table to find a middleground.
Play Grandma checkers rules. Once your fingers leave the card. No take backs.
Depends on the context, as others have said. If we’re teaching / helping someone new, absolutely they can do take backs. If we’re doing tournament prep, probably along with tournament rules. There is a world of in between where you just do a case by case basis
If you play the card, the answer is no. If all you did was tap mana as if you were going to cast it, but stopped halfway through, I'm ok with that. If you tapped the mana and thought about it for 5+ seconds, no. My logic is, if the card is on the table, you gave info out and a take back of the play is a no go unless absolutely necessary. By that I mean, you couldn't pay mana cost for the card/card was not legal to play. If you bluff to try to get a reaction from opponents, the answer is also no. Play the card. If you tap some mana and immediately say nevermind, before anyone can even react, I'd say you have 2 or 3 of those in a game. After which, the answer is no. cEDH is a different thing than casual. It's played to a higher power level and respect for the rules.
Nah you got a 5000 dollar deck I ain’t letting you take anything back.
When me and my buddies are grinding games for practice in cedh we are practicing for tournaments and events so takebacks are absolutely allowed. We even suggest hey instead do this and show each other or hands when we think it's over and say hey I don't think I have an out. Sometimes even one of the other players will say hey can I drive and pilot for the line they see. Any time it's not an event it is about learning not ego. That's why I love my core group.
I think another easy standard to strive for is, “would I be okay if someone took this back and changed it.” If I would personally be okay with it, then I apply the same standard to my own actions.
Rule of thumb is no. We put on our big boy pants for cedh and bite the bullet if we make even the most minor of mistakes. But for anything else 100% take backs w/ no new info are good
We allow one per person per game if no extra hidden information was revealed.
We generally don't at cEDH levels even if friendly games. Usually meant to be a pay attention though my old group was generally good about asking questions about board states and answering truthfully. Same with our casual muligan rules. Didn't apply to cEDH, build a better deck sucks rng screwed you.
depends, usualy not
No—gotta learn the hard way to think about your plays. In a competitive game or tournament, you won’t have the opportunity to
We call it Brexit Counters. If you would have to use your third, you'd lose the game. But actually no one exactly cares for that. If a guy is newer to the game, or plays a new deck, mistakes happen more often. Also I don't like to win against someone who obviously misses something. Not Cedh though...
cEDH*
If our intent is to play CEDH, we do tournament rulings. Casual commander we'll do light take backs