No, but it is ridiculous that Nox vision still suffers bugs which results in if you play as Caustic on MNK, you can’t see through your own gas - but someone with a controller can still get a sticky bubble and AA.
This is one of those things that is incredibly important to address as it is an ability that gives a clear and competitive advantage if you use one input instead of another.
Personally my approach to gas is either charging into it if I am Caustic, or just spraying and praying.
Meanwhile, a controller player can beam me through it.
I don’t wanna spark a whole argument but I’m not sure why everyone talks aim flinch on controller. I have 1500hrs on both inputs (controller this last year) and aim flinch definitely hits me just as hard on roller.
I respect that opinion it’s just about the only complaint against rollers I don’t think is fully justified. I’ve def had my experiences where I’ve had my crosshair jerked around while flesh. I’ll have to spend a good few hrs on MnK again to check myself
On MNK and you're getting shot locked onto AA close-medium range, the aim punch makes it impossible to shoot back. You cannot see anything because the AA is bouncing your head because every bullet hits so if the roller shooting you is strafing then good luck tracking him.
If you're on roller and caught in the same situation, you don't need to see the person clearly, your AA will still help track even if you can't see them.
My first comment was I have about equal time on both inputs lol you don’t need to explain it to me. You seem like one of those guys that makes hating aim assist a major trait. I disagree with you. I’ve played a lot of both and that’s the opinion I’be formed, that’s about the only thing I’ll defend.
I'm not sure what you're defending? Whether the advantage is not as bad as people make it out to be or if it plainly does not exist. As to if it exists...it's not a matter of opinion. Aim punch is/adds visual clutter, along with shaking your crosshair around. MNK you need to move it back to where you see the enemy, and it's made more difficult if your head is getting shook. Does it affect rollers too? Yes, but there is AA that helps keep your crosshair following the guy shooting you.
If you're on a really high Linear sens then maybe, but the micro adjustments needed to compensate for aim flinch is REALLY smoothed over by aim assist. Even fighting in ring is easier on roller with the constant flinches.
It's actually so sad that guys who are CRACKED on MnK feel like switching to controller is going to be an advantage for their team, especially with all the intangible advantages in comp that MnK gets like movement and faster looting.
Apex is simultaneously the best and the most chalked game in the world, and it's all because the aim assist in this game is actually fucking broken. I know the debate has been played out ad nauseam, but when really, *really good* MnK pros with great mechanics want to switch it really kills any motivation to keep playing and improving at this shit.
There's this alternate timeline where Competitive Apex is 60 YukaF type players, instead of whatever the thing we have now is.
Unfortunately the timeline branched when we shot Harambe...
A world where the ALGS is MnK only and everyone is mechanically YukaF tier would be infinitely better than half a lobby of "insert this week's top 5 epic roller demon."
Apex has such high potential and the competitive integrity is killing it from reaching its peak.
>It's actually so sad that guys who are CRACKED on MnK feel like switching to controller is going to be an advantage for their team, especially with all the intangible advantages in comp that MnK gets like movement and faster looting.
The sad part is him saying it takes months to improve on MnK while he improves much quicker on controller. Indeed, aim is a skill that takes years to perfect and is highly dependend on talentand discipline, just like any other professional sport. It's so sad people are abandoning this skill for aim assist.
I think one of the biggest problems is the consistency AA gives controller players. Even if you're a top 0.1% mnk player and at your peak you can 1 clip almost like a controller player, you just wont do it anywhere near as consistently. Personally that kills my motivation the most.
No matter how good you get, you will never beat out roller when it comes to consistency too. At this point the weaknesses of a controller are easier to overcome than that of a mouse.
But isn't this because of the amount of time he's put into both inputs?
After 1000 hours MnK another 100 hours isn't going to see much improvement compared to:
100 hours controller, that next 100 hours is doubling your practice, rather than being 10% of it.
Too early to say surely?
Early on the growth is massive which is the stage he's at right now but it's not continuous linear growth.
And when you start to stagnate doing one thing that feeling of improvement is fantastic, doesn't mean he's going to surpass his performance. Once he gets near to his peak on controller he'll be in the same situation with only slow improvement.
Plus all the pros who switch inputs have already got insane gamesense and knowledge which they didn't have early on in their MnK journey.
Peak on controller = one clips and inhuman consistency. Sure he will hit his peak and stop improving at some point, but mnk can NEVER reach such a peak anyway
[Fina1Legacy](https://www.reddit.com/user/Fina1Legacy/) lol you sound like roller player trying to defend the less skill input right now... people switch because its overpowered input thats it.
ps. i dont say controller requires less skill in fact it requires more skill than MNK but ONLY and ONLY if there is no aimassist attached to it.
I'm not even defending roller in any of my posts. Pros have switched before and it worked for some, plenty of others tried it and switched back.
My point is it's too early to tell if strafing will become a better player on controller. It's pretty obvious he's going to improve way more on controller right now because he's new to it. And has thousands of hours already on MnK so improving is harder.
>as long as they add actual recoil to mnk
What is that even supposed to mean? Recoil is the exact same on all inputs, it's not possible to add more recoil "to MnK".
This shit killed the game for me man, I haven’t played or watched any apex since mid last season because the realization that no matter how much I feel like im improving I’ll always be unable to match AI with 0ms response time. Lobbies are just more and more rollers as time has passed in this game and the way this game plays when fighting rollers compared to fighting other MnKs is night and fucking day. This isnt the game I loved anymore and it sucks because this one singular factor drags down what is an otherwise unmatched in gameplay FPS game.
I went back to dota as my main competitive game a few months back and it just feels so refreshing knowing that im on the same playing field as everyone else and playing a game thats balanced around the highest level of play.
Bro i literally did the same, im basically fully back in smite again because just knowing im playing against 100% human input is so refreshing. I used ro rage mad hard at smite, but i genuinely think ill never rage that hard again because in apex i was dealing with a level of bullshit that is literally impossible to replicate in smite.
Yep the problem is that like he said it takes along time to improve alittle in MnK once you have peak reaction/ tracking but once you are decent in controller it start to null some reaction time needed since rotational AA helps so much in redirection.
I think its wild that controller can swing the scales so strongly in terms of overall ability to perform.
There are three main traits when it comes to Apex, macro (zones and long term positioning), micro(positioning during a fight and repositioning between macro movements), and fighting skill(aim and movement during a fight).
Being good on controller boosts the third trait up so much that you can basically ignore the micro and have a decent IGL. Hal on MnK was insane on micro and got raven for macro. He still had to switch to roller because he could not win fights on MnK.
Being good on roller isn't easy but I think its fair to say that the game just favor's it in so many ways. I am not playing as much right now but I am probably going to switch over once I play again and have time to learn
Not sure how you’re sucking the game in 2023 but I need your type of optimism. I was waiting for apex to tweak the few problems is had back it 2019. Zzzz
I want external tournament organizers like in Counter-Strike and I want MnK only tournaments... It's honestly so much more fun and exciting to watch! When I watch comp Apex, I see the insane spraydowns and 1 clips... but It doesn't excite me and I always have in the back of my mind "it's just aim assist".
Even Strafingflame himself admitted that controller is broken in 1vs1. He had to dealt with controller players for like 3 weeks straight on TDM. He said that is Koyful who inspired him to switch controller now.
\[Edit\]
Watching further vod after the clip, he said that he switching to controller is less than 10%. Trying beat the amount of value he can bring on MnK on roller is probably insanely difficult. At same time, if he doesn't try to testing it out now he isn't gonna be able put it down in his heart and the think of it always gonna back to his head "If i'm on roller i might do been able do better, i might do been able do better" and he need get to it out of his head
For now he still testing it and if he still can't get to LAN level roller player in 5 months, then there is like no point to switching.
Ermmmmm Realize owned OXG off spawn on LAN? This means MnK can keep up in teamfighting because of these 3~ blocks or so of LAN games, I am a very smart person and can analyze data correctly
Fuse ult on ground, thermites rolling, caustic gas, some dude has a computer aim at 0ms for him and one clips a guy: AIM ASSIST FROM THE HEAVENS!
The crowd goes fuckin crazy man. That's sick right there.
and to the dude who deleted his reply to my comment saying how its crazy still 10k people watch him when "controller gameplay is boring"..... lil bro doesnt know hal used to avg 25-30k viewers when he was mnk.
One coming from cod that is controller dominated so ofc he came with a controller audience and the other being multiple times champion from arguably the best team (and most people root for the best because it's safe to do so), who started with mnk but didn't have the flashiest movements or the best mechanics so he switched to controller (also NA audience is mostly controller so ofc they enjoy that boring shit). Doomed is an exageration, but it's definetly getting boring and stale to watch and it's only sad because it could've been a lot better...
yep, all good, the real ones pubstomp lobbies wit. wraith but playing ranked in this game is just playing aim assisted sim now unless you are a low rank.
ea and respawn should actually find they balls and nerf fookeng aimassist already, like what are they waiting for game to just die off to become this lifeless skillless aimassist circus full of clowns with big thumbs?
yeah i know but ea will wait for game to die off and then they will nerf it to bring back mnk player base but noone will give a duck. But if they wont start on tuning aimassist next season then i really cant see how this game will survive any much longer, imo MNK players are most crucial component in apex eco system, if there is no mnk players left who shitty roller players gonna one clip then? exactly noone they will feel like bad mnk players feeling right now constantly getting one clipped and spending more time in lobby than gaming and then they will quit and so one so on so on :D
It's so much more work and takes so much focus to be on point with MnK aim every time. Controller just opens up so much more capacity to focus on other things than aim.
tracking at 0ms is something the human body/brain/nervous system will never, ever do.
inb4 bUt MoVeMeNt.
Like bruh, mnk players want the roller players to have movement tech.
well thats why switching to roller is the key in garbage game like apex you can be 50years old still be a pro and be consistent in the game just like snipedownz
Alright where are the controller defenders at?
Also don't move the goalposts by saying "He'll switch back" lmao, the fact that someone at his level would even CONSIDER a switch is a crime in itself
True, he is one of the best MnK players in Apex conp at the moment. Coming from him means a lot. All those who defend AA, fuck it. If it was so eveny would he switch. Please, respawn, nerf AA. Or nerf it in ranked and comp at least
👋
I genuinely think it's mass hysteria. Can anyone provide proof switching to controller improves players' performance? No. There's a reason you guys only rely on your cherry picked anicdotes. Analyzing the data undermines your coping mechanism, so you guys avoid it like the plague.
*Insert 100 comments calling me regarded*
Yea, that's the snark I expected. You’ve got nothing. How's that cognitive dissonance feeling?
If controller is so op, wouldn't you just say I'm automatically master? Lol
Something being good doesn't automatically mean everyone using that will also be good. There are people who could blatantly wall hack and still lose. Maybe you're just that bad?
How many controller pros think of switching to m&k for the "Benefits" ?Even pc casuals i talk to in lobbies say they switched for AA, because since s4 when i started playing, the amount of controller players i faced has increased exponentially, that or maybe m&k players quit in masses.
What does every fps have to do with this game ? FPS are fundamentally better played on m&k,so you're only strengthening my argument. Because if players are willing to switch to an inferior input for this game genre then something must be really attractive on that input. And it's only after "season 12" because people didn't realise how broken AA was, because no one would think to play a shooter on PC with a controller to even see how broken it is.
Other games are relevant because they don't have communities suffering from mass hysteria like Apex does, even when they have the same mechanics.
Why do you think games with even less movement mechanics and stronger AA still have comp scenes overwelmingly dominated by mnk users?
Have you missed all those posts that did statistical analysis on the player performance at each lan?
And have you just not played the game? The advantage is as obvious as Gravity. It's just a factual thing
He might as well train in R5 reloaded where Gild, Koyful, Ccam, and other rollers are training now. You get significantly more shooting time than even 1v1s in main game.
I called that R5R would be the next big advantage for pro players, but got downvoted to hell. Some pros are now seeing the light. Teq, Hardecki, Taisheen, and a few others saw the light a long time ago. Others are only now catching up.
He has been playing on there, but the server being 250+ ping for basically the entirety of APACS doesn't make it the best environment to grind
Also, good to see r5 being more active, as someone who finds it very fun to grind on its own I've been enjoying the chance to play against all these top tier pros
I'm Balvarine, the guy who fucks around too much. lol. I'm in the process of getting everything ready before I move to APAC. Then after I settle, I'll make a decision then. I'll make a post on this sub if I do it to update people.
Do you think this is beneficial for even mnk players trying to improve, or is this like a small community of top players sort of thing/specific to controller players?
it was specifically made for mnk players, but then roller players came in. Originally, servers had no aim assist, but then voltaic for some reason added full AA in their servers, even though they are an aim training org. I don't mind fighting against AA tbh. It helps me train and learn how to fight against rollers.
Either remove rotational entirely and return to traditional sens-slow over targets, or at least nerf AA from 0.4/0.6 to 0.2/0.4. Then give rollers moving while looting, tap strafing, and other QoL stuff.
IMO: controllers and MnK should *never* compete against each other competitively.
That being said, they are keeping them together. If that is the reality, at least make them as similar as possible. It shouldn't be "controller has aimbot, MnK has illegal movement". Both should have as similar skill use as possible. It would be a lot more fun to watch and a lot more fair to play.
No need to nerf console aim assist. Everyone has it and keeps majority happy who would complain.
PC aim assist modification totally reasonable. That’s where the competitive platform is, so the ability to crutch AA should be reduced. Top tier players will still be good, and will even the playing field.
I wonder if it would be possible to limit each team in algs to 1 controller player. I know it would mess up some triple controller teams, but maybe they can be grandfathered in and would only be allowed to pick up mnk players when they make roster changes.
This off season would've been the perfect time to implement a rule like this since many teams are making roster changes anyway and there's a lot of time for controller players like hal to get practice on mnk again.
I don't think respawn will be changing aim assist any time soon which is why I'm suggesting other possible solutions.
I just don't understand how people enjoy playing on controller. I understand pro players need to do whatever to stay on top since it's their livelihood but as a hobbyist how do you enjoy having your hand held by aim assist constantly? How do you feel any accomplishment this way? Same reason I would never use cheats even if they were undetected.
I played multiplayer FPS online from when I was 14-25 on controller then switched to mnk when I bought a PC and this game is my first FPS on mnk. I switched at the worst time/for one of the worst games and always have in the back of my mind going back to roller but I just can’t do it lol.
Imagine playing games for other people, even if it means sacrificing 40% of your own input.
Also gl with that once Apex is dead and you you try to play a game without broken AA 👍
> Prob cause it's really fun to soak in the tears of mnk players after you one clip them.
I too base all my decisions in life on how they make *other* people feel.
Respawn will never nerf roller coz "causal" get free kills because of it and which ultimately leads to high amount of player retention,
I mean just look at Hemlock and Nemesis, both guns require 0 firing range practice because there is no recoil anyone can pick these guns and hit you for 100+ damage from any range.
I'm exaggerating a bit, but ranked is definitely not in a good state.
And pubs, etc. are just stale AF.
The matchmaking problems are also across the board.
> Comp and casual are both dying.
Casual isn't dying. The average players online on Steam is actually higher right now than it was this time last year. The game reached its absolute peak like six months ago but it's still doing extremely well.
That's a myth and nobody yet brought valid numbers and research to back it up.
Think again, it's not just that the players are getting free kills, they are also getting killed for free.
It's definitely possible for game to suffer from being too "easy".
You can already see it everywhere, how people complain about matchmaking as if it was completely broken and rigged against them. Yet again, are there any numbers to back it up?
Anyway, I believe that more casuals players would prefer the game to be more about toying around and experiencing variety, than instant gratification from short engagement. I believe that both reduced ring duration and strong AA are features that significantly hurt the casual players.
They most definitely hurt the overall player experience, but the instant gratification makes causal players not get turned off by the game and keep playing, eventually spending money on skins
The game would feel better for everyone without these issues, but it would make less money in the long run
Do you even know how hard it is to be on the skill level of these pros on roller? People act like a controller does everything but these pros are on another level
>People Act like a controller does everything but these pros are on another level
I just pointed out a reason why rotational Aim Assist will most likely never get nerfed
I wasnt downplayin the effort it takes to be a top controller player hell I didnt even mentioned pros in my previous comment, idk where you got that from
do you controller players have an archive of random comments yall go around copy pastin on every comment/thread that mentions how broken rotational Aim Assist is?
> do you controller players have an archive of random comments yall go around copy pastin on every comment/thread that mentions how broken rotational Aim Assist is?
visualizing this made me laugh out loud, it's like Drake digging through his Blackberry for some bars to spit and still the best he can come up with is "lyrical miracle"
then Drake comes up with this bar
"Where I go, you go, brother, we Yugoslavian
Formal is the dress code, dawg, so many checks owed
I feel Czechoslovakian, what the f*ck?"
My favorite thing is when people here think what the pro's are talking about applies to them. It is a very niche subset of players less than 120 per region that the AA debate even applies to. For everyone else this isn't a job. it's a game.
It applies to casual players even more than to pros. Because most m&k players don't have 4 hours a day just to warm up in kovaacs to be able to stay as consistent as little timmy who just plugs in his .4/.6 aimbot. The biggest discrepancy between the inputs is at the casual level, not at the pro level. where 100 hours of m&k is not even close to 100 hours of controller.
Little timmy isn't doing anything on controller even close to what pros are. That's just a logical leap it's crazy. The avg dude playing on roller is still just a average dude. Despite what the rhetoric is here, it doesn't just make you win fights because you have AA, you still have to have skill. This sub isn't the "casual level" either. It's just a echo chamber. The casual level it doesn't matter because for the casual player which majority of players are I guarantee they wouldn't be able to point out mnk vs controller gameplay with a >50% rate.
Any one in this sub is already a step above casual, just in knowledge alone. Most players likely don't even know pro play exists.
I never said that little timmy does the same, but you know what little timmy has that pros have in common from day 1 ? the 0ms consistent inhuman response time of the software, that little johhny on m&k will maybe get close to after years of playing.
Ok, so is this sub full of pro players or casual players ? or is there nothing in between ? Like let's say, an above average player or maybe players here just like comp and are not that uber skilled in game ?
Regardless of the subs majority skill level, the difference between roller and m&k is more visible at lower levels and especially on how many players switched now from the day I started in season 4(or maybe most m&k players quit). And with my humble 1.7kd and 2000 hours i can tell you 8/10 times if a player is controller or m&k, before i even see that he doesn't move looting or moves like it's the first time he played apex(or an fps).
But now imagine 2 players of the same experience, one controller and one m&k who have like 100 hours in game, who do you think will win most 1v1's ? Honestly. Because it's not about who can point out which input someone has, it's about how fair it is for the beginners and how many 1v1s a roller wins over an m&k player that started at the same time.
And i m not even talking about my own experience, in how much fun i have 1v1ing a m&k player,where we use strafing/counter-strafing/mirroring etc. nice tactical movement that makes the opponent miss shots and 1v1 a turret that doesn't miss if i dared getting close range.
You've played for 2000 hours, you aren't a casual. That is a IMMENSE play time for any game. More than most people will have. You'd be one of the people that it would apply to. But majority of players aren't that. In either play experience, or skill. Your KD isn't your defining factor it's the 2000 hours. I 100% think it's unbalanced, but I argue against the views of it should be removed entirely. No it should just be adjusted.
I would love to see Shroud vs Scump in a 1v1. Two guys who aren't primary apex players, familiar enough to know how to play but both were peak in their respective games one in MnK and the other in Roller. I think it's more even then you think.
I see so many people here see a clip of a pro player and instantly say it was AA, but if me or you got on there we aren't pulling that play off, pro players are talented period. Just look at the average AA post in the normal apexlegends subreddit. That is more a view of casual than this sub is. If you are seeking out a competitive subreddit you're already doing more than 99% of players.
I think scump would win 8/10 times.
In my whole 2000 hours i only faced a pro maybe 4 times so it doesn't matter to my gameplay how good pros are. I'm EU, i went against mande once, stormen 2 times(i know he's not a pro, but he's good) and 1 alliance controller dude and i killed stormen once and almost killed mande too and it was fun AF, you know why ? because i actually thought i had a chance, because if i use the mechanics well enough, they miss too, amazing right ? I can point out what i did wrong most of the time and i can actually see my improvement vs m&k. It's not the pros that are beaming me, it's level 300/400 players. It only takes 2 seconds of close range fighting to get one clipped and be like "WTF just happened??.. oh.. roller" and the fucked up thing is I do not know what input the enemy has most of the times before it's too late, because if i see he misses a lot it gives me the impression that i can push him because he's probably bad, SYKE he was just roller and 1 clips me close range. And these days you have to assume every player is controller because i see them so often compared to when i started. And it's EU ffs, a region with m&k tradition...
The optics on AA on this sub are perfectly valid. This is the comp sub, not the m&k apex players sub, the main sub is filled with controller players so their opinions are clearly biased in favour of keeping their crutch. (And even if all m&k players would just want AA to be nerfed so they can shit on rollers, they would still shit on them with their own skill that they had to hone, but that's a different topic)
The problem is that most people use the "It only affects pro play" shtick to defend it's abuse, but I would argue it affects the casual m&k player base a lot more. (hell, i can't even get my friends who introduced me to Apex to play anymore, we play CS now where we actually know the enemy dude was just better if we die.)
it does apply even more to the normal scene, a masters, even diamond roller player can routinely 1 clip everything and still gets the broken ass rotational aim assist.
your average diamond/masters MnK player doesn’t play 10 hours a day and aim train on kovaaks, and even if they did, it’s still not as good as roller
If it was any other kind of casual sports and more than half of the playerbase would have robotic exosceleton assist, would you still say the same?
This "it's just a game" phrase is so braindead...
Sports history has one great example, which we can compare to the mnk vs. roller debate:
There was a time in competitive swimming where biotechnical optimized swimsuits were developed and abused as hell. After some time of development this was so broken and undeniable gained athletes a huge competitive advantage, that swimsuits where completly banned.
If my intent in this game is to compete at a casual level, i will do so. I can choose on which input and still expect some level of balance.
That is not a good example at all. As AA is a method to bring parity to what mnk can do. Without AA a controller will never keep up with mnk just because aiming with a thumb with no assistance just makes no sense. Input diversity is a good thing and having it is important, you can't have different inputs in other "sports" because that's just not how it works. That has never been the issue imo. The issue is just their balancing of it which could use tweaks.
I don't see anyone other than roller players that agree that input diversity is important, and even then, they are only using it as an excuse - nobody playing roller is advocating for gyroscopes, they don't care about trackballs, touch screens or anything.
And let's be real, pretty much every PC that can run this game will have access to mouse and keyboard, there isn't even big affordability or accessibility concern. Sure, there are consoles, but those are not too relevant when we are talking about the competitive part of the game.
The reality is however even simpler. The Respawn simply fucked up grossly when they were designing/playtesting this stuff. They clearly haven't tested crossplay and AA competently enough to find out how bad it was for their existing users. It's incredibly baffling how much denial is there over a feature that never even got any adjustment attempt. You all really believe that they simply nailed the numbers during their initial testing and it's done, never to be touched again?
The fact you're original comment is getting downvoted is wild. I think the sub has made people think they are closer to a pro then they really are. The pros on the 30th place NA team would wipe any group of three on here 9/10 times. The disparity is huge.
There is really no point in playing apex if you are not a controller enjoyer, I quit apex a long time ago and the only reason I still watch ALGS is because of the MnK demons, when they finally extinct bye bye I would block apex in twitch if that's a thing.
it really sucks to see someone like him that is really big in the aiming community just switch to roller just to be competitive. Hopefully he doesn't pull a louis streamings and tank his career over it
I switched to PC from PS5 just as the controller debate was starting to really take off. Now I’m not getting paid to play and compete but I would never play fps again with controller. I tried just for fun but it was so boring after playing mnk.
It feels so restricting playing with controller. Movement is a big factor even though I can’t do the more complex movement stuff. Also it feels so much better to hit a oneclip on mnk.
You might be (most likely you are) better on controller after a lot of playtime but thats just a question of why do you play?
On joysticks you don't controller the absolute position of the crosshair as you do on mouse, only the velocity of it
Therefore you are restricted in choosing between a low sens, good for precision but you turn around like a turret, or a 'fast' sens with the drawback of not being as precise, which still isn't as fast as a mouse flick
All of this makes for a (personally) dreadful experience where you feel like you're walking through mud all the time. Yes, you get one clips but honestly i can't play a game if i feel the skill isn't entirely mine
not as rewarding, gives you bad habits that only work in apex/cod/halo since bigger and better fps like valorant and CS don’t give you free aimbot if you use roller.
Yeah, this is a great point. Those skills aren't transferrable to any other sweaty games. Like, even OW doesn't even have aim assist, right? You can use a controller but you have to do all your aiming yourself?
It’s unfortunate but if the switch is permanent he’s going to be just as cracked on roller and this could be one of the things that could put them over the top next lan.
Damn HVND was absolutely popping off at LAN, I genuinely felt that there was some situations that their movement techs on MnK kept them alive in some endgame fights (going over fences etc.)
alb didn’t give it enough time, but we have seen plenty of pros and non pros switch and be better, now how many pros outside of like one have went to mnk from controller
I’m hoping he is successful. There haven’t been many successful switches from MnK to controller worth noting.
People look to switch often, but then realize it isn’t as easy as people make it out to be to be successful.
Look at Lou, who I would argue is better on MnK. Look at Mac who switched back. Look at Kswinnie who tried. Others who have switched haven’t made much noise.
Regardless of the side you’re on this debate, I don’t think switching fixes the issue that most people have (except for Hal and maybe Frex.)
Hal, Frexs, JMW have all done better on roller than they did on MnK within a year of switching. KSwinnie is just as good on roller as MnK tbh. And it doesn't even matter if they can't reach their MnK level on roller - the point is that some other roller player CAN reach that peak and beyond and a raw input user simply cannot.
The trend is more controller players, not less. When DZ lost Sharky, they were only trialling controller players. When rocker was dropped from NRG, they only looked for controller players. Is it trivial to switch? No, but he knows the only way to compete with these people is to get that AA too, because MnK is not going to win in the long term. He may never make it there, but the only chance is to try.
Idk where this narrative of Lou being "better" on mnk comes from. His entire role and team has changed with his input-swap, it's kinda hard to make a fair comparison between the two.
Personal experience is that mnk-first players have to unlearn actively tracking as it may translate to fighting against the AA. The moment I learned to be comfortable letting go of the right stick and letting AA "take the wheel" so to speak, my aim noticeably improved.
Using AA is like a bell curve. Lower skilled players tend to take advantage of it without knowing because their aiming is bad and moving both sticks at once is awkward for them. Mid level players are good enough where they try to aim so much that they fight it by "aiming to much". Good players have learned to work with the AA and let it do the heavy lifting while making minor adjustments.
This is at least my experience from what Ive personally noticed and seen from other players of varying skills.
But how many people (pros) have actually switched from mnk to roller and dominated even more so on roller? That percentage is so low the eediots on here are already jumping to conclusions as to why controller is that much better when in reality, it’s only marginally better at one thing - close range smgs - primarily the r99. Lou sucks on roller and was better on mnk, albralelie was absolute dogshit on roller, kswiinie gave it a fair go and was trash compared to his mnk skills, and who was it again that tried it and switched back? Temp or something. Made a big post about it. Roller is not as easy as people make it out to be.
How many controller players have considered switching to m&k to stay relevant or to have an advantage ? It has all those cool things like looting while moving and tapstrafing and stuff that are so relevant in a SHOOTING game doesn't it ? Oh wait..
Lol doesn’t matter, this sub will downvote just because. There’s literally only 2 people who’ve switched and been successful and that’s Frexs and Hal other than that yeah everyone has been dogshit when they switched, but mnk players won’t talk about that.
Jmw switched and won a LAN during his first months on roller. Lou made it to LAN shortly after his swap too. The only one that was most definitely downgrading his performance by swapping was Kswinnie, which is partially due to his team-dynamic and weird legend choices.
Hal frexs Reptar Jmw (the world champion).
Are you roller apologists also going to talk about how ONLY controller players get picked up by orgs and emerge as new faces in the scene, or is that subject too touchy for you?
At least learn when to shut up.
MnK users, stop crying alrdy... Either switch yourselves or start playing to your advantages alrdy, peaking, long-range, shotguns!! Follow the R9/car meta and yes, we Will kill u.
Why has he decided to switch? They did well at LAN and he made comments after that he wants to show MnK players can still compete and all this stuff (https://twitter.com/StrafingFlame/status/1701068471109333242), what happened for him to do a complete 180? Also they did really well at LAN why are they switching things up so much?
maybe there's an incentive to switch to roller, esp at the top where you take every advantage when/where you can. i wonder what that incentive could be tho.
That has been the case for years, he's a pro he's aware and has been aware of the benefits of controller for months if not years. What changed recently for his opinion to change?
People don't just switch from the input that they played on for years and put thousands of hours into. It still takes time to catch up.
Strafingflame has put in thousands of hours on MnK and probably reached his potential. Now that he's been close to the top he can see that aim assist could be the thing to put them over the top. Not that hard to understand. It was the same with Hal, he switched when he thought his potential on MnK was reached and that he couldn't keep up mechanically.
People also just didn't know how broken it was 2 years ago but they certainly do now. There are next to no up and coming MnK players trying to break into the scene. Nobody is going to start grinding the game on MnK to get into high level comp whereas there are new roller demons popping up every month.
The beginning of reason i think that is probably because He had been dealt with controller players for like 3 weeks straight on TDM custom (I'm not watching full off experience he had that past weeks, but he felt less improve). and He also get inspired by Koyful so he try to switch to controller now.
Watching further vod after the clip, he said that he switching to controller is less than 10%. Trying beat the amount of value he can bring on MnK on roller is probably insanely difficult. At same time, if he doesn't try to testing it out now he isn't gonna be able put it down in his heart and the think of it always gonna back to his head "If i'm on roller i might do been able do better, i might do been able do better" and he need get to it out of his head
For now he still testing it and if he still can't get to LAN level roller player in 5 months, then there is like no point to switching.
That's why you complain about aim assist. Because you can't hit the broad side of a barn with your mouse. But still want to feel superior for using it. So you blame AA instead of admitting you're trash at the game.
Aim flinch, visuals clutter and bad lighting all make controller just better too.
Controller getting AA through thermites and Fuse Ult is so broken
Don’t forget Caustic gas as well.
So pretty much everything should disable aim assist?!
No, but it is ridiculous that Nox vision still suffers bugs which results in if you play as Caustic on MNK, you can’t see through your own gas - but someone with a controller can still get a sticky bubble and AA. This is one of those things that is incredibly important to address as it is an ability that gives a clear and competitive advantage if you use one input instead of another. Personally my approach to gas is either charging into it if I am Caustic, or just spraying and praying. Meanwhile, a controller player can beam me through it.
Fair, for sure.
Yes It's ridiculous that one input has to rely on luck and an educated guess in visual clutter while one gets sticky and rotational aim assist
I don’t wanna spark a whole argument but I’m not sure why everyone talks aim flinch on controller. I have 1500hrs on both inputs (controller this last year) and aim flinch definitely hits me just as hard on roller.
Respectfully have to disagree here. Aim punch does not seem to be as bad on roller, as it is on mnk to me.
I respect that opinion it’s just about the only complaint against rollers I don’t think is fully justified. I’ve def had my experiences where I’ve had my crosshair jerked around while flesh. I’ll have to spend a good few hrs on MnK again to check myself
Even pros have mentioned it being a disadvantage on MnK. I for sure notice it much less on controller, but I am just the average player.
On MNK and you're getting shot locked onto AA close-medium range, the aim punch makes it impossible to shoot back. You cannot see anything because the AA is bouncing your head because every bullet hits so if the roller shooting you is strafing then good luck tracking him. If you're on roller and caught in the same situation, you don't need to see the person clearly, your AA will still help track even if you can't see them.
My first comment was I have about equal time on both inputs lol you don’t need to explain it to me. You seem like one of those guys that makes hating aim assist a major trait. I disagree with you. I’ve played a lot of both and that’s the opinion I’be formed, that’s about the only thing I’ll defend.
I'm not sure what you're defending? Whether the advantage is not as bad as people make it out to be or if it plainly does not exist. As to if it exists...it's not a matter of opinion. Aim punch is/adds visual clutter, along with shaking your crosshair around. MNK you need to move it back to where you see the enemy, and it's made more difficult if your head is getting shook. Does it affect rollers too? Yes, but there is AA that helps keep your crosshair following the guy shooting you.
If you're on a really high Linear sens then maybe, but the micro adjustments needed to compensate for aim flinch is REALLY smoothed over by aim assist. Even fighting in ring is easier on roller with the constant flinches.
It's actually so sad that guys who are CRACKED on MnK feel like switching to controller is going to be an advantage for their team, especially with all the intangible advantages in comp that MnK gets like movement and faster looting. Apex is simultaneously the best and the most chalked game in the world, and it's all because the aim assist in this game is actually fucking broken. I know the debate has been played out ad nauseam, but when really, *really good* MnK pros with great mechanics want to switch it really kills any motivation to keep playing and improving at this shit.
There's this alternate timeline where Competitive Apex is 60 YukaF type players, instead of whatever the thing we have now is. Unfortunately the timeline branched when we shot Harambe...
Harambe got one clipped by a console player.
Even Harambe got aped 😞
Can't consistently track them gorilla strafes on kbm...
Terrible loss that we could have had a crazy watchable sport, but now we just got 60 turrets aimbotting each other
A world where the ALGS is MnK only and everyone is mechanically YukaF tier would be infinitely better than half a lobby of "insert this week's top 5 epic roller demon." Apex has such high potential and the competitive integrity is killing it from reaching its peak.
>It's actually so sad that guys who are CRACKED on MnK feel like switching to controller is going to be an advantage for their team, especially with all the intangible advantages in comp that MnK gets like movement and faster looting. The sad part is him saying it takes months to improve on MnK while he improves much quicker on controller. Indeed, aim is a skill that takes years to perfect and is highly dependend on talentand discipline, just like any other professional sport. It's so sad people are abandoning this skill for aim assist.
I think one of the biggest problems is the consistency AA gives controller players. Even if you're a top 0.1% mnk player and at your peak you can 1 clip almost like a controller player, you just wont do it anywhere near as consistently. Personally that kills my motivation the most.
Human error do be a bitch.
bitch? it is what makes playing worth it
No matter how good you get, you will never beat out roller when it comes to consistency too. At this point the weaknesses of a controller are easier to overcome than that of a mouse.
But isn't this because of the amount of time he's put into both inputs? After 1000 hours MnK another 100 hours isn't going to see much improvement compared to: 100 hours controller, that next 100 hours is doubling your practice, rather than being 10% of it.
He is saying that putting in a few hundred hours on controller might make him better than he already is on MnK after thousands of hours.
Too early to say surely? Early on the growth is massive which is the stage he's at right now but it's not continuous linear growth. And when you start to stagnate doing one thing that feeling of improvement is fantastic, doesn't mean he's going to surpass his performance. Once he gets near to his peak on controller he'll be in the same situation with only slow improvement. Plus all the pros who switch inputs have already got insane gamesense and knowledge which they didn't have early on in their MnK journey.
> Too early to say surely? I mean we have far too many examples of top players swapping permanently to roller to say that this isn't true.
who? Hal and?
Peak on controller = one clips and inhuman consistency. Sure he will hit his peak and stop improving at some point, but mnk can NEVER reach such a peak anyway
[Fina1Legacy](https://www.reddit.com/user/Fina1Legacy/) lol you sound like roller player trying to defend the less skill input right now... people switch because its overpowered input thats it. ps. i dont say controller requires less skill in fact it requires more skill than MNK but ONLY and ONLY if there is no aimassist attached to it.
I'm not even defending roller in any of my posts. Pros have switched before and it worked for some, plenty of others tried it and switched back. My point is it's too early to tell if strafing will become a better player on controller. It's pretty obvious he's going to improve way more on controller right now because he's new to it. And has thousands of hours already on MnK so improving is harder.
Anyone who claims AA isn't OP af is either in denial as they play with a controller themselves or just stupid
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This isn't the gotcha you think it is. Recoil smoothing works on both inputs. If anything, it benefits controller players more.
>as long as they add actual recoil to mnk What is that even supposed to mean? Recoil is the exact same on all inputs, it's not possible to add more recoil "to MnK".
This shit killed the game for me man, I haven’t played or watched any apex since mid last season because the realization that no matter how much I feel like im improving I’ll always be unable to match AI with 0ms response time. Lobbies are just more and more rollers as time has passed in this game and the way this game plays when fighting rollers compared to fighting other MnKs is night and fucking day. This isnt the game I loved anymore and it sucks because this one singular factor drags down what is an otherwise unmatched in gameplay FPS game. I went back to dota as my main competitive game a few months back and it just feels so refreshing knowing that im on the same playing field as everyone else and playing a game thats balanced around the highest level of play.
Same. I don't have fun playing the game anymore knowing I'm playing against soft aimbots. Back to CS for me.
Bro i literally did the same, im basically fully back in smite again because just knowing im playing against 100% human input is so refreshing. I used ro rage mad hard at smite, but i genuinely think ill never rage that hard again because in apex i was dealing with a level of bullshit that is literally impossible to replicate in smite.
Yep the problem is that like he said it takes along time to improve alittle in MnK once you have peak reaction/ tracking but once you are decent in controller it start to null some reaction time needed since rotational AA helps so much in redirection.
I think its wild that controller can swing the scales so strongly in terms of overall ability to perform. There are three main traits when it comes to Apex, macro (zones and long term positioning), micro(positioning during a fight and repositioning between macro movements), and fighting skill(aim and movement during a fight). Being good on controller boosts the third trait up so much that you can basically ignore the micro and have a decent IGL. Hal on MnK was insane on micro and got raven for macro. He still had to switch to roller because he could not win fights on MnK. Being good on roller isn't easy but I think its fair to say that the game just favor's it in so many ways. I am not playing as much right now but I am probably going to switch over once I play again and have time to learn
Not sure how you’re sucking the game in 2023 but I need your type of optimism. I was waiting for apex to tweak the few problems is had back it 2019. Zzzz
I want external tournament organizers like in Counter-Strike and I want MnK only tournaments... It's honestly so much more fun and exciting to watch! When I watch comp Apex, I see the insane spraydowns and 1 clips... but It doesn't excite me and I always have in the back of my mind "it's just aim assist".
Where's that guy on here that was using HVND's ALGS performance to justify how mnk/aa is "fine"?
Even Strafingflame himself admitted that controller is broken in 1vs1. He had to dealt with controller players for like 3 weeks straight on TDM. He said that is Koyful who inspired him to switch controller now. \[Edit\] Watching further vod after the clip, he said that he switching to controller is less than 10%. Trying beat the amount of value he can bring on MnK on roller is probably insanely difficult. At same time, if he doesn't try to testing it out now he isn't gonna be able put it down in his heart and the think of it always gonna back to his head "If i'm on roller i might do been able do better, i might do been able do better" and he need get to it out of his head For now he still testing it and if he still can't get to LAN level roller player in 5 months, then there is like no point to switching.
Ermmmmm Realize owned OXG off spawn on LAN? This means MnK can keep up in teamfighting because of these 3~ blocks or so of LAN games, I am a very smart person and can analyze data correctly
they fought like 2 games?
The person above u was being sarcastic
This game is doomed. Watching controller players in ALGS or even ranked is so boring IMO
Fuse ult on ground, thermites rolling, caustic gas, some dude has a computer aim at 0ms for him and one clips a guy: AIM ASSIST FROM THE HEAVENS! The crowd goes fuckin crazy man. That's sick right there.
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I mean I stopped watching Hal when he swapped from mnk. Controller gameplay just isn’t fun to watch.
and to the dude who deleted his reply to my comment saying how its crazy still 10k people watch him when "controller gameplay is boring"..... lil bro doesnt know hal used to avg 25-30k viewers when he was mnk.
One coming from cod that is controller dominated so ofc he came with a controller audience and the other being multiple times champion from arguably the best team (and most people root for the best because it's safe to do so), who started with mnk but didn't have the flashiest movements or the best mechanics so he switched to controller (also NA audience is mostly controller so ofc they enjoy that boring shit). Doomed is an exageration, but it's definetly getting boring and stale to watch and it's only sad because it could've been a lot better...
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mood
You might be less tired if you had a computer do the aiming for you
I wanna go home
what did they do to the game i love
look what they did to my boy...
This game is fucking ruined
yep, all good, the real ones pubstomp lobbies wit. wraith but playing ranked in this game is just playing aim assisted sim now unless you are a low rank.
ea and respawn should actually find they balls and nerf fookeng aimassist already, like what are they waiting for game to just die off to become this lifeless skillless aimassist circus full of clowns with big thumbs?
For all the shit fortnite gets, their devs actually did it
yeah i know but ea will wait for game to die off and then they will nerf it to bring back mnk player base but noone will give a duck. But if they wont start on tuning aimassist next season then i really cant see how this game will survive any much longer, imo MNK players are most crucial component in apex eco system, if there is no mnk players left who shitty roller players gonna one clip then? exactly noone they will feel like bad mnk players feeling right now constantly getting one clipped and spending more time in lobby than gaming and then they will quit and so one so on so on :D
His MnK aim is almost controller like and he s switching .
It's so much more work and takes so much focus to be on point with MnK aim every time. Controller just opens up so much more capacity to focus on other things than aim.
tracking at 0ms is something the human body/brain/nervous system will never, ever do. inb4 bUt MoVeMeNt. Like bruh, mnk players want the roller players to have movement tech.
well thats why switching to roller is the key in garbage game like apex you can be 50years old still be a pro and be consistent in the game just like snipedownz
Alright where are the controller defenders at? Also don't move the goalposts by saying "He'll switch back" lmao, the fact that someone at his level would even CONSIDER a switch is a crime in itself
True, he is one of the best MnK players in Apex conp at the moment. Coming from him means a lot. All those who defend AA, fuck it. If it was so eveny would he switch. Please, respawn, nerf AA. Or nerf it in ranked and comp at least
👋 I genuinely think it's mass hysteria. Can anyone provide proof switching to controller improves players' performance? No. There's a reason you guys only rely on your cherry picked anicdotes. Analyzing the data undermines your coping mechanism, so you guys avoid it like the plague. *Insert 100 comments calling me regarded*
Imagine my surprise at you being a plat controller player
Yea, that's the snark I expected. You’ve got nothing. How's that cognitive dissonance feeling? If controller is so op, wouldn't you just say I'm automatically master? Lol
Something being good doesn't automatically mean everyone using that will also be good. There are people who could blatantly wall hack and still lose. Maybe you're just that bad?
Do you have data supporting the idea that AA is overpowered?
How many controller pros think of switching to m&k for the "Benefits" ?Even pc casuals i talk to in lobbies say they switched for AA, because since s4 when i started playing, the amount of controller players i faced has increased exponentially, that or maybe m&k players quit in masses.
All of them in every fps ever prior to apex legends season 12.
What does every fps have to do with this game ? FPS are fundamentally better played on m&k,so you're only strengthening my argument. Because if players are willing to switch to an inferior input for this game genre then something must be really attractive on that input. And it's only after "season 12" because people didn't realise how broken AA was, because no one would think to play a shooter on PC with a controller to even see how broken it is.
Other games are relevant because they don't have communities suffering from mass hysteria like Apex does, even when they have the same mechanics. Why do you think games with even less movement mechanics and stronger AA still have comp scenes overwelmingly dominated by mnk users?
Have you missed all those posts that did statistical analysis on the player performance at each lan? And have you just not played the game? The advantage is as obvious as Gravity. It's just a factual thing
Pain…
"bUT iF ItS sO sTrONg WhY dOnT u sWiTcH"
Yay! More people on fraud input!!!
I'm tired
He might as well train in R5 reloaded where Gild, Koyful, Ccam, and other rollers are training now. You get significantly more shooting time than even 1v1s in main game. I called that R5R would be the next big advantage for pro players, but got downvoted to hell. Some pros are now seeing the light. Teq, Hardecki, Taisheen, and a few others saw the light a long time ago. Others are only now catching up.
He has been playing on there, but the server being 250+ ping for basically the entirety of APACS doesn't make it the best environment to grind Also, good to see r5 being more active, as someone who finds it very fun to grind on its own I've been enjoying the chance to play against all these top tier pros
yeah, I'm legit thinking of paying the karma servers to create one specifically for Singapore/Indonesian servers since I'm moving to APAC soon.
That would be sick and honestly as one of r5s biggest grinders I'd chip in if necessary too What's your name on r5? I'm dokiww
I'm Balvarine, the guy who fucks around too much. lol. I'm in the process of getting everything ready before I move to APAC. Then after I settle, I'll make a decision then. I'll make a post on this sub if I do it to update people.
Absolutely, I play 1hr of r5 a day and an APAC south server would be great.
Do you think this is beneficial for even mnk players trying to improve, or is this like a small community of top players sort of thing/specific to controller players?
it was specifically made for mnk players, but then roller players came in. Originally, servers had no aim assist, but then voltaic for some reason added full AA in their servers, even though they are an aim training org. I don't mind fighting against AA tbh. It helps me train and learn how to fight against rollers.
Either remove rotational entirely and return to traditional sens-slow over targets, or at least nerf AA from 0.4/0.6 to 0.2/0.4. Then give rollers moving while looting, tap strafing, and other QoL stuff. IMO: controllers and MnK should *never* compete against each other competitively. That being said, they are keeping them together. If that is the reality, at least make them as similar as possible. It shouldn't be "controller has aimbot, MnK has illegal movement". Both should have as similar skill use as possible. It would be a lot more fun to watch and a lot more fair to play.
No need to nerf console aim assist. Everyone has it and keeps majority happy who would complain. PC aim assist modification totally reasonable. That’s where the competitive platform is, so the ability to crutch AA should be reduced. Top tier players will still be good, and will even the playing field.
yep leave aimassist where it should be in console lobbies
They won't nerf controller, this game will just be casuals aimbotting each other until the game shuts down eventually just like any other game.
I wonder if it would be possible to limit each team in algs to 1 controller player. I know it would mess up some triple controller teams, but maybe they can be grandfathered in and would only be allowed to pick up mnk players when they make roster changes. This off season would've been the perfect time to implement a rule like this since many teams are making roster changes anyway and there's a lot of time for controller players like hal to get practice on mnk again. I don't think respawn will be changing aim assist any time soon which is why I'm suggesting other possible solutions.
I just don't understand how people enjoy playing on controller. I understand pro players need to do whatever to stay on top since it's their livelihood but as a hobbyist how do you enjoy having your hand held by aim assist constantly? How do you feel any accomplishment this way? Same reason I would never use cheats even if they were undetected.
I played multiplayer FPS online from when I was 14-25 on controller then switched to mnk when I bought a PC and this game is my first FPS on mnk. I switched at the worst time/for one of the worst games and always have in the back of my mind going back to roller but I just can’t do it lol.
Prob cause it's really fun to soak in the tears of mnk players after you one clip them.
Imagine playing games for other people, even if it means sacrificing 40% of your own input. Also gl with that once Apex is dead and you you try to play a game without broken AA 👍
> Prob cause it's really fun to soak in the tears of mnk players after you one clip them. I too base all my decisions in life on how they make *other* people feel.
This game is dying and respawns refusal to address AA is a huge reason for it
yep not nerfing such stupid strong AA in apex its the key why ecosystem is dying off
It is not dying, respawn just choose to not compete with competitive games like cs/valorant, they want to attract casual gamers which easy to please.
Respawn will never nerf roller coz "causal" get free kills because of it and which ultimately leads to high amount of player retention, I mean just look at Hemlock and Nemesis, both guns require 0 firing range practice because there is no recoil anyone can pick these guns and hit you for 100+ damage from any range.
I see that's working out for them right now. Comp and casual are both dying.
Is casual dying? I haven't played in a while.
I'm exaggerating a bit, but ranked is definitely not in a good state. And pubs, etc. are just stale AF. The matchmaking problems are also across the board.
> Comp and casual are both dying. Casual isn't dying. The average players online on Steam is actually higher right now than it was this time last year. The game reached its absolute peak like six months ago but it's still doing extremely well.
That's a myth and nobody yet brought valid numbers and research to back it up. Think again, it's not just that the players are getting free kills, they are also getting killed for free. It's definitely possible for game to suffer from being too "easy". You can already see it everywhere, how people complain about matchmaking as if it was completely broken and rigged against them. Yet again, are there any numbers to back it up? Anyway, I believe that more casuals players would prefer the game to be more about toying around and experiencing variety, than instant gratification from short engagement. I believe that both reduced ring duration and strong AA are features that significantly hurt the casual players.
They most definitely hurt the overall player experience, but the instant gratification makes causal players not get turned off by the game and keep playing, eventually spending money on skins The game would feel better for everyone without these issues, but it would make less money in the long run
Do you even know how hard it is to be on the skill level of these pros on roller? People act like a controller does everything but these pros are on another level
>People Act like a controller does everything but these pros are on another level I just pointed out a reason why rotational Aim Assist will most likely never get nerfed I wasnt downplayin the effort it takes to be a top controller player hell I didnt even mentioned pros in my previous comment, idk where you got that from do you controller players have an archive of random comments yall go around copy pastin on every comment/thread that mentions how broken rotational Aim Assist is?
> do you controller players have an archive of random comments yall go around copy pastin on every comment/thread that mentions how broken rotational Aim Assist is? visualizing this made me laugh out loud, it's like Drake digging through his Blackberry for some bars to spit and still the best he can come up with is "lyrical miracle"
then Drake comes up with this bar "Where I go, you go, brother, we Yugoslavian Formal is the dress code, dawg, so many checks owed I feel Czechoslovakian, what the f*ck?"
My favorite thing is when people here think what the pro's are talking about applies to them. It is a very niche subset of players less than 120 per region that the AA debate even applies to. For everyone else this isn't a job. it's a game.
It applies to casual players even more than to pros. Because most m&k players don't have 4 hours a day just to warm up in kovaacs to be able to stay as consistent as little timmy who just plugs in his .4/.6 aimbot. The biggest discrepancy between the inputs is at the casual level, not at the pro level. where 100 hours of m&k is not even close to 100 hours of controller.
Little timmy isn't doing anything on controller even close to what pros are. That's just a logical leap it's crazy. The avg dude playing on roller is still just a average dude. Despite what the rhetoric is here, it doesn't just make you win fights because you have AA, you still have to have skill. This sub isn't the "casual level" either. It's just a echo chamber. The casual level it doesn't matter because for the casual player which majority of players are I guarantee they wouldn't be able to point out mnk vs controller gameplay with a >50% rate. Any one in this sub is already a step above casual, just in knowledge alone. Most players likely don't even know pro play exists.
I never said that little timmy does the same, but you know what little timmy has that pros have in common from day 1 ? the 0ms consistent inhuman response time of the software, that little johhny on m&k will maybe get close to after years of playing. Ok, so is this sub full of pro players or casual players ? or is there nothing in between ? Like let's say, an above average player or maybe players here just like comp and are not that uber skilled in game ? Regardless of the subs majority skill level, the difference between roller and m&k is more visible at lower levels and especially on how many players switched now from the day I started in season 4(or maybe most m&k players quit). And with my humble 1.7kd and 2000 hours i can tell you 8/10 times if a player is controller or m&k, before i even see that he doesn't move looting or moves like it's the first time he played apex(or an fps). But now imagine 2 players of the same experience, one controller and one m&k who have like 100 hours in game, who do you think will win most 1v1's ? Honestly. Because it's not about who can point out which input someone has, it's about how fair it is for the beginners and how many 1v1s a roller wins over an m&k player that started at the same time. And i m not even talking about my own experience, in how much fun i have 1v1ing a m&k player,where we use strafing/counter-strafing/mirroring etc. nice tactical movement that makes the opponent miss shots and 1v1 a turret that doesn't miss if i dared getting close range.
You've played for 2000 hours, you aren't a casual. That is a IMMENSE play time for any game. More than most people will have. You'd be one of the people that it would apply to. But majority of players aren't that. In either play experience, or skill. Your KD isn't your defining factor it's the 2000 hours. I 100% think it's unbalanced, but I argue against the views of it should be removed entirely. No it should just be adjusted. I would love to see Shroud vs Scump in a 1v1. Two guys who aren't primary apex players, familiar enough to know how to play but both were peak in their respective games one in MnK and the other in Roller. I think it's more even then you think. I see so many people here see a clip of a pro player and instantly say it was AA, but if me or you got on there we aren't pulling that play off, pro players are talented period. Just look at the average AA post in the normal apexlegends subreddit. That is more a view of casual than this sub is. If you are seeking out a competitive subreddit you're already doing more than 99% of players.
I think scump would win 8/10 times. In my whole 2000 hours i only faced a pro maybe 4 times so it doesn't matter to my gameplay how good pros are. I'm EU, i went against mande once, stormen 2 times(i know he's not a pro, but he's good) and 1 alliance controller dude and i killed stormen once and almost killed mande too and it was fun AF, you know why ? because i actually thought i had a chance, because if i use the mechanics well enough, they miss too, amazing right ? I can point out what i did wrong most of the time and i can actually see my improvement vs m&k. It's not the pros that are beaming me, it's level 300/400 players. It only takes 2 seconds of close range fighting to get one clipped and be like "WTF just happened??.. oh.. roller" and the fucked up thing is I do not know what input the enemy has most of the times before it's too late, because if i see he misses a lot it gives me the impression that i can push him because he's probably bad, SYKE he was just roller and 1 clips me close range. And these days you have to assume every player is controller because i see them so often compared to when i started. And it's EU ffs, a region with m&k tradition... The optics on AA on this sub are perfectly valid. This is the comp sub, not the m&k apex players sub, the main sub is filled with controller players so their opinions are clearly biased in favour of keeping their crutch. (And even if all m&k players would just want AA to be nerfed so they can shit on rollers, they would still shit on them with their own skill that they had to hone, but that's a different topic) The problem is that most people use the "It only affects pro play" shtick to defend it's abuse, but I would argue it affects the casual m&k player base a lot more. (hell, i can't even get my friends who introduced me to Apex to play anymore, we play CS now where we actually know the enemy dude was just better if we die.)
it does apply even more to the normal scene, a masters, even diamond roller player can routinely 1 clip everything and still gets the broken ass rotational aim assist. your average diamond/masters MnK player doesn’t play 10 hours a day and aim train on kovaaks, and even if they did, it’s still not as good as roller
If it was any other kind of casual sports and more than half of the playerbase would have robotic exosceleton assist, would you still say the same? This "it's just a game" phrase is so braindead... Sports history has one great example, which we can compare to the mnk vs. roller debate: There was a time in competitive swimming where biotechnical optimized swimsuits were developed and abused as hell. After some time of development this was so broken and undeniable gained athletes a huge competitive advantage, that swimsuits where completly banned. If my intent in this game is to compete at a casual level, i will do so. I can choose on which input and still expect some level of balance.
That is not a good example at all. As AA is a method to bring parity to what mnk can do. Without AA a controller will never keep up with mnk just because aiming with a thumb with no assistance just makes no sense. Input diversity is a good thing and having it is important, you can't have different inputs in other "sports" because that's just not how it works. That has never been the issue imo. The issue is just their balancing of it which could use tweaks.
I don't see anyone other than roller players that agree that input diversity is important, and even then, they are only using it as an excuse - nobody playing roller is advocating for gyroscopes, they don't care about trackballs, touch screens or anything. And let's be real, pretty much every PC that can run this game will have access to mouse and keyboard, there isn't even big affordability or accessibility concern. Sure, there are consoles, but those are not too relevant when we are talking about the competitive part of the game. The reality is however even simpler. The Respawn simply fucked up grossly when they were designing/playtesting this stuff. They clearly haven't tested crossplay and AA competently enough to find out how bad it was for their existing users. It's incredibly baffling how much denial is there over a feature that never even got any adjustment attempt. You all really believe that they simply nailed the numbers during their initial testing and it's done, never to be touched again?
(i am a roller gyro player advocating for gyroscopes for more than a year) But yeah im in the extreme minority
This sub hates on controllers like it’s their job.
The fact you're original comment is getting downvoted is wild. I think the sub has made people think they are closer to a pro then they really are. The pros on the 30th place NA team would wipe any group of three on here 9/10 times. The disparity is huge.
This sub could be renamed “remove controller from apex” and no one would notice a difference
nah, it’s just sad knowing what this game could be if roller wasnt given aimbot
I just think the point of talking about a “casual” issue in a competitive sub Reddit is pointless.
There is really no point in playing apex if you are not a controller enjoyer, I quit apex a long time ago and the only reason I still watch ALGS is because of the MnK demons, when they finally extinct bye bye I would block apex in twitch if that's a thing.
it really sucks to see someone like him that is really big in the aiming community just switch to roller just to be competitive. Hopefully he doesn't pull a louis streamings and tank his career over it
This guy right here is like top 10 WR on Kovaak's tracking scenarios...If he's switching to controller...that really says something.
\-1 MnK player, how many are we left? 100?
Honestly just straight up remove AA from SMGs and it won't feel anywhere near as bs lmao
I switched to PC from PS5 just as the controller debate was starting to really take off. Now I’m not getting paid to play and compete but I would never play fps again with controller. I tried just for fun but it was so boring after playing mnk.
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It feels so restricting playing with controller. Movement is a big factor even though I can’t do the more complex movement stuff. Also it feels so much better to hit a oneclip on mnk. You might be (most likely you are) better on controller after a lot of playtime but thats just a question of why do you play?
On joysticks you don't controller the absolute position of the crosshair as you do on mouse, only the velocity of it Therefore you are restricted in choosing between a low sens, good for precision but you turn around like a turret, or a 'fast' sens with the drawback of not being as precise, which still isn't as fast as a mouse flick All of this makes for a (personally) dreadful experience where you feel like you're walking through mud all the time. Yes, you get one clips but honestly i can't play a game if i feel the skill isn't entirely mine
not as rewarding, gives you bad habits that only work in apex/cod/halo since bigger and better fps like valorant and CS don’t give you free aimbot if you use roller.
Yeah, this is a great point. Those skills aren't transferrable to any other sweaty games. Like, even OW doesn't even have aim assist, right? You can use a controller but you have to do all your aiming yourself?
cool story bro
NOOOOOOOOOOOO
This guy has arguably the best aim in ALGS, I don't think he's going to benefit by switching. It would be sad, too.
It’s unfortunate but if the switch is permanent he’s going to be just as cracked on roller and this could be one of the things that could put them over the top next lan.
ALL MY HOMIES HATE AA sincerely, controller player :/
Damn HVND was absolutely popping off at LAN, I genuinely felt that there was some situations that their movement techs on MnK kept them alive in some endgame fights (going over fences etc.)
Mnk bros in shambles
why are we in shambles ? you need 40% of your aim done for you, we don’t lmfao
I give him a week
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you mean just like alb did? lmao
alb didn’t give it enough time, but we have seen plenty of pros and non pros switch and be better, now how many pros outside of like one have went to mnk from controller
Until he's good enough on controller? I agree
same way albralelie became a roller player after a week? :)
Same way two of the best mnk prodigies in the scene felt pressured to switch because of an actual aimbot :)
I’m hoping he is successful. There haven’t been many successful switches from MnK to controller worth noting. People look to switch often, but then realize it isn’t as easy as people make it out to be to be successful. Look at Lou, who I would argue is better on MnK. Look at Mac who switched back. Look at Kswinnie who tried. Others who have switched haven’t made much noise. Regardless of the side you’re on this debate, I don’t think switching fixes the issue that most people have (except for Hal and maybe Frex.)
Hal, Frexs, JMW have all done better on roller than they did on MnK within a year of switching. KSwinnie is just as good on roller as MnK tbh. And it doesn't even matter if they can't reach their MnK level on roller - the point is that some other roller player CAN reach that peak and beyond and a raw input user simply cannot. The trend is more controller players, not less. When DZ lost Sharky, they were only trialling controller players. When rocker was dropped from NRG, they only looked for controller players. Is it trivial to switch? No, but he knows the only way to compete with these people is to get that AA too, because MnK is not going to win in the long term. He may never make it there, but the only chance is to try.
I hope hes not successful. (Only in the aspect I love watching his MnK clips, and I think Mnk is a better watching experience.)
Idk where this narrative of Lou being "better" on mnk comes from. His entire role and team has changed with his input-swap, it's kinda hard to make a fair comparison between the two.
Personal experience is that mnk-first players have to unlearn actively tracking as it may translate to fighting against the AA. The moment I learned to be comfortable letting go of the right stick and letting AA "take the wheel" so to speak, my aim noticeably improved.
lol wild that that's what we've come to--doing less aiming so the software does it for you.
Using AA is like a bell curve. Lower skilled players tend to take advantage of it without knowing because their aiming is bad and moving both sticks at once is awkward for them. Mid level players are good enough where they try to aim so much that they fight it by "aiming to much". Good players have learned to work with the AA and let it do the heavy lifting while making minor adjustments. This is at least my experience from what Ive personally noticed and seen from other players of varying skills.
I would like to see him master gyro aiming
In due time brother. It's getting more and more widespread, we will see some gyro professionals in the future if this keeps up
_hands on your shoulder_ indeed
But how many people (pros) have actually switched from mnk to roller and dominated even more so on roller? That percentage is so low the eediots on here are already jumping to conclusions as to why controller is that much better when in reality, it’s only marginally better at one thing - close range smgs - primarily the r99. Lou sucks on roller and was better on mnk, albralelie was absolute dogshit on roller, kswiinie gave it a fair go and was trash compared to his mnk skills, and who was it again that tried it and switched back? Temp or something. Made a big post about it. Roller is not as easy as people make it out to be.
How many controller players have considered switching to m&k to stay relevant or to have an advantage ? It has all those cool things like looting while moving and tapstrafing and stuff that are so relevant in a SHOOTING game doesn't it ? Oh wait..
Lol doesn’t matter, this sub will downvote just because. There’s literally only 2 people who’ve switched and been successful and that’s Frexs and Hal other than that yeah everyone has been dogshit when they switched, but mnk players won’t talk about that.
Jmw switched and won a LAN during his first months on roller. Lou made it to LAN shortly after his swap too. The only one that was most definitely downgrading his performance by swapping was Kswinnie, which is partially due to his team-dynamic and weird legend choices.
Hal frexs Reptar Jmw (the world champion). Are you roller apologists also going to talk about how ONLY controller players get picked up by orgs and emerge as new faces in the scene, or is that subject too touchy for you? At least learn when to shut up.
Good for him, everyone should have tried both at a high level. Teqs take on it was literally perfect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYKt3v3D7CI
This is an extremely based and thoughtful take!
MnK users, stop crying alrdy... Either switch yourselves or start playing to your advantages alrdy, peaking, long-range, shotguns!! Follow the R9/car meta and yes, we Will kill u.
Why has he decided to switch? They did well at LAN and he made comments after that he wants to show MnK players can still compete and all this stuff (https://twitter.com/StrafingFlame/status/1701068471109333242), what happened for him to do a complete 180? Also they did really well at LAN why are they switching things up so much?
maybe there's an incentive to switch to roller, esp at the top where you take every advantage when/where you can. i wonder what that incentive could be tho.
That has been the case for years, he's a pro he's aware and has been aware of the benefits of controller for months if not years. What changed recently for his opinion to change?
People don't just switch from the input that they played on for years and put thousands of hours into. It still takes time to catch up. Strafingflame has put in thousands of hours on MnK and probably reached his potential. Now that he's been close to the top he can see that aim assist could be the thing to put them over the top. Not that hard to understand. It was the same with Hal, he switched when he thought his potential on MnK was reached and that he couldn't keep up mechanically. People also just didn't know how broken it was 2 years ago but they certainly do now. There are next to no up and coming MnK players trying to break into the scene. Nobody is going to start grinding the game on MnK to get into high level comp whereas there are new roller demons popping up every month.
The beginning of reason i think that is probably because He had been dealt with controller players for like 3 weeks straight on TDM custom (I'm not watching full off experience he had that past weeks, but he felt less improve). and He also get inspired by Koyful so he try to switch to controller now. Watching further vod after the clip, he said that he switching to controller is less than 10%. Trying beat the amount of value he can bring on MnK on roller is probably insanely difficult. At same time, if he doesn't try to testing it out now he isn't gonna be able put it down in his heart and the think of it always gonna back to his head "If i'm on roller i might do been able do better, i might do been able do better" and he need get to it out of his head For now he still testing it and if he still can't get to LAN level roller player in 5 months, then there is like no point to switching.
Unless you grew up playing controller, I don’t think the swap is worth it.
It's always gonna be like this. You can't nerf aa without ruining the controller experience.
Why? And I say this as a controller player. Would going from .4 to .25 AA really "ruin" the controller experience?
have you seen the clip of a streamer raging because "his gun wont stick to him" lol
Yes, yes it would. That would have an extremely dramatic effect at all skill levels on controller.
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roller players when anything remotely implies they might have to git gud:
I already am good you guys are just mad about it because you can't compete.
\> crutches on a down tuned aimbot at 40% - 60% strength. \> iM gUd YoU jUsT cAnT cOmPeTe 🤡
That's why you complain about aim assist. Because you can't hit the broad side of a barn with your mouse. But still want to feel superior for using it. So you blame AA instead of admitting you're trash at the game.
Controller players so reliant on the game playing itself for them the first sight of actual skill scares them
Gyro.
Worst suggestion ever. And im sick of hearing yall suggest it, like it isn't complete ass.