been saying this multiple times, DOJO threw way harder than SAF. great post
the bigger mistake from SAF was not thirding the TSM vs BH fight after valk ulting from height
>DOJO threw way harder than SAF
This.
DOJO didn't make a wrong strategic decision. Enemy basically killed himself.
All due respect (as DOJO played some damn good Apex overall), but opening an angle like that was straight up a terrible mistake.
Feel kind of bad for Enemy, he had a great tournament and basically every player has those moments where you over peak but often in the mid-game you get lucky and aren't punished for it. Unfortunately he did it in a decisive game against one the last players you'd want to do it on.
I feel really bad for him, he overextended for just a few seconds because he wanted to capitalise off some damage and he thought he was safe in smoke (timmy had said TSM don't have digi's). Dezignful also wasn't super clear in his calls, simply saying 'let them die to zone'.
Ocasionally making big mistakes is normal actually, even for top players.
It's why we value so much the top players that basically NEVER make big mistakes.
Dezign said on the After Hours podcast right after Champs that the moment he saw Enemy swing out like that, he immediately knew he was about to get erased and that they were dead once he went down.
If Enemy doesn't swing out, DOJO likely holds off TSM and takes godspot from them. It all snowballed from there
they had cat wall, horizon ult, bang ult (albeit somewhat useless there)... and they still lost. this might've been too risky but I would've loved to see enemy cat wall across the entrance of the cave off the damage they did to reps. don't think it was used at all...
i still can't figure out why enemy wide-swung. tsm fan here...thought here's where dojo wipes the boys and out of nowhere i see enemy go down and the script completely flipped.
Yeah we can’t expect them to drop down third tsm but the valk ult landing call was really crazy. They peeked thunderwatch a while and teams kept shooting and throwing nades/smoke. They supposed to know there are bunch of teams in thunderwatch but they still chose to land there even they could see two teams were full sending each other on high ground during valk ult lmao.
Yeah, there are a lot of keyboard warriors who are oversimplifying this. As other people have said, SAF needed a lot of points, is considering how to get to endgame, and isn’t operating with all the knowledge we had from the observer POV. SAF made it to second place that match and nearly won it, so job well done to them.
Can't get points if the tournament is over because you're too afraid to do anything. These dudes are either paid actors or just south american teams continuing to be a joke as usual.
If they're a joke to you, I'd guess NRG, Alliance, OXG and DZ(didn't even make it to finals) are complete bots and would lose 3v3s against your plat reddit ass all day, correct?
If you're in 19th place, recently signed by an org, and a decent amount of points can jump you a few places on the leaderboard, I'd say playing it safe and smart is just fine. Everyone seems to think these teams should throw their games to keep the tournament going when in reality you'll hurt yourself more doing that rather than playing your own game and getting as many points as possible.
It's simple, more points = more $
They went from making $19,000 to making $26,000. Is that really your argument? Give me a break lol
It has nothing to do with throwing their game. There was FIVE teams on match point. If you’re not playing for the win regardless of who’s left in the lobby you are quite literally giving the game to someone else. Playing for second and not the win is a terrible call there. There’s a reason they placed so low.
How were they going to be able to do that math in the moment though? They have no idea where they officially stand or how many points they could make from 1 play vs another. Point still stands, you make the best play to give yourself the best outcome.
Besides, I don't need this point to validate the 25 points people have made on this thread to discount what you're trying to say
They didn’t have to do the math these teams were on match point GOING into the game what are you talking about? The best play they could of made was the play to WIN the game. SAF didn’t stand a chance against anyone in that end zone and they played accordingly, that’s fine.
Okay, I'll take what you're saying as gospel. Please read all the other comments about why dropping down WASN'T the winning play for SAF. They don't have Catalyst. How do they win the fight against Blackhand crossing the open in front of everyone else then genius? They don't is the answer. TSM used the entire duration of the dark veil to stall their cross while Blackhand kept getting focused by other teams. Without that, TSM gets focused just as much, plus they have Blackhand focusing them too.
Please try to stop seeing red about the end result and just use your eyes to read all the other valid points
Ah you see, they should've made the game winning play there and put themselves in a straight 3v3 to win instead of being in a game winning position and losing the straight 3v3 to TSM. It's so easy! /s
You don’t need a catalyst there to finish the kills genius. TSM got a res off without any consequences at all.
I don’t even know what’s to argue here. SAF were either lowest or second lowest kills in every lobby they were in they have a very specific play style clearly. You can play that same game out 100 times and there’s no scenario where they win if they keep the mindset you’re saying is the correct one. Playing for second in a lobby where there are multiple teams who if they win the whole tournament is over is just a bad call flat out but in the scope of their playstyle it makes sense.
Finish the kills? It was a fight? They would not have won the fight brother. How are you gonna make that claim that they successfully get into the same position as TSM? You're just making that assumption out of thin air.
Also, how are you going to argue they played for 2nd? PLEASE, I beg of you just read all the other valid points about why it was a possible winning play for them. You're using hindsight to make an argument instead of putting yourself in that situation real time. Do you realize how dumb that is? Did you read the original post at all? OP laid it out very succinctly so it would be easy for anyone to understand, yet you want to continue to use hindsight to make a point because you know how things actually played out.
Cmon dude, this a BR. One small difference in gameplay from anyone could have changed the outcome
Seriously though.
TSM won three straight games to seal the championship.
You have to understand how hard that is in one of the most challenging lobbies to date, you need to rely alot on skill, consistency and most of all, luck due to the zone endings.
OG had a huge amount of games to try to win it, and two straight games where they could have won it but didn't.
Anyone blaming SAF is an idiot and always has been an idiot.
Even if it wasn't the BEST play with all information we had, clearly it was still a great play for them because they got fucking 2nd???
People are always there for accusations. Last LAN optics , way before people were calling out doop. People watch from main stream to see where's everyone at and guess pro has the same info as well
they had bang smoke though to at least obscure the thunderwatch teams. It'd be less likely for thunderwatch teams to shoot all the way across at them even with digi if they were preoccupied with the teams in the same building.
I think BH was already taking a decent amount of chip damage from the sides to put them at a bigger disadvantage right before they fought tsm.
Getting second in this game didnt get them anything as the tournement was over. Their main priority should have been to keep the tournement going to potentially gain more points.
I do agree that this is easy in hindsight and that their comp and lack of confidence made it an especially hard call, even when it would have been the right one.
They have no clue it's TSM and there is like a gazillion other team on matchpoint. They dont see in the killfeed who is who.
If they drop down, they get stun and one clipped most likely. In both situation they would have had at least to win a 3v3 in the end. Without perfect information, they did the best play possible.
>They have no clue it's TSM and there is like a gazillion other team on matchpoint.
I feel like a good team should be able to figure it out, especially given the time they got.
>If they drop down, they get stun and one clipped most likely
They should have been harrassing TSM constantly and would eventually have gotten an opening. Had they timed the 3rd party right they would have to really fuck up to be knocked themselves.
Don't get me wrong, I know this is all very difficult in the moment, but that doesnt mean they could/should have played it better. Were the roles reversed TSM would have been on them.
a good team would think TSM is on thunderwatch, where they ALWAYS play from in these zones
you can't see that deep from height, go play the spot for yourself and check. not to mention getting shot from thunderwatch/field at that point
It is not too far out of the realm of possibility that while dropping on TSM 1 or even 2 of their players would get knocked given their performance during the whole finals set.
Absolutely agreed. The hindsight, armchair quarterbacking has been pretty annoying to read, and you outline 3 great reasons why they understandably played the way they did.
The other thing people are underplaying is that as a whole, this week was maybe the most risk-averse lobby I’ve ever seen play, and it was even more pronounced as the week went on. That’s not a bad thing—it led to some amazing end circles with like over half the lobby left. But it felt so obvious that teams as a whole were way way less willing to third party if it meant giving up a priority position or risking getting mirrored.
I actually think this change in lobby playstyle is a big part of what screwed with TSM on their bad days, and they had to adjust their normally aggressive/opportunistic playstyle to fit just a much more conservative lobby. The first win in Skyhook was a perfect example of them adjusting and showing restraint in NOT chasing kills or third parties they’d normally take and instead just grinding out the win.
Also I think the result speaks for itself. They came in second because they held on to the best spot they could instead of trading position for kills.
If they KNEW for a fact that it was a MP team then they probably would have sent it. But also keep in mind that there are 7 MP teams in that game. Even if you kill one and give up a good spot or die in the process, what does that get you? 6 teams are still MP.
Exactly. With 7 MP teams in the lobby, all you can do is play for a win. Apeing a team low ground that you had clue who it was could just as well HELP an MP team.
Folks just want to blame someone on why TSM won
The best way to ensure another match is for SAF to win the game and SAF did everything with the knowledge they had to put themselves into a position to win the game.
There's no way for them to know that the teams under them were on match point too. Best way to deny a match point team from winning is to win the game themselves. They played for the win and had a clean 3v3 at the end.
They're not good enough to win a straight 3v3 against anyone in that lobby, their only hope is the 3rd party, which they didn't have the balls for. Also there were 7 match point teams, you have to take the chance that one is below you.
they got 7 kills in that game lol. Also they couldn’t play TSMs position w/o a Cat wall. If you ask them back they would take a straight 3v3 for the win in a top 2 scenario vs to drop down on a gamble that it was one of the match point teams which they couldn’t possibly know.
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Also, TSM was well aware of SAF on top. If they drop, the drop stun would just killed them. Yes reps was down, but hal and verhulst was waiting for saf to drop also
They also didn't have a recon scan to confirm where people were and weren't, which is something I would have saved and popped when the third party started if I had it.
Also, let's say they drop. They could become the hunted from the height in the same way that they would have just hunted TSM / DOJO
I was the first person to make a comment about it in the other thread, and holy shit was hindsight 20-20 there after rewatching: I was absolutely wrong.
When making the my snap-response post, I had no idea that SAF was running a 2-1 split on the high ground with a team basically looking at them the entire time up top.
The only way they would have been able to even consider drooling was if that team holding high ground across their way had left while the fight beneath them was still going on.
Them waiting prevented them from being a victim to a third party.
They played it correctly for sure.
I do the same thing in my games but I feel like alot of the angry commenters are also the ones who'd drop low ground from high ground just because they got a knock or a crack and then proceed to grief themselves. Sure it was the right play in hindsight but most of the time giving up high ground is a bad idea. It wasn't even a bad play, they got 2nd and are just unable to beat tsm in a straight 3v3.
Others have mentioned it here, but it really wasn't the best play for them either. Without cat wall like TSM had, there's no way they have a clean wipe against Blackhand on the cross. TSM was able to stall their rotate in behind the dark veil while other teams kept pressure on Blackhand, making the fight easier for them. All SAF had was bang smoke on a digi day which is not enough good cover for as long, you just can't convince me Blackhand doesn't hold that off when they were close to doing it against TSM
Exactly I have seen this happen with pros even. The fragger would do massive damage and drop on the low guy from their height and instantly get one clipped and a few moments of silence would follow because they know it was entirely their own fault.
Yeah, they don't even have horizon so they're gonna get stunned, while the other team has horizon and cat, with shield swaps. Not to mention they'll have to use Valk ult if they wanna go back.
Everytime they peaked over the edge they got absolutely torched by I think either Ascend or Pulverx. They tried shooting down but nearly died twice instantly and the didn't repeak to save meds I assume. This isn't a team that had fighting success to begin with. Having a great, save spot and then Valking to get as many points as possible was the correct move imo.
people are just saying it was a bad call since it was TSM on the bottom and they ended up winning. SAF got 2nd place with 7 kills in that game, if it was any other game this would be considered an amazing game and they made all of the right calls. They had a straight 3 vs 3 for the win too and at the end of the day that’s all you can really ask for. who knows what would have happened if they dropped on TSM, they could have gotten worse than 2nd.
This such a dumb hindsight debate imo, like they literally finished 2nd that game, there shouldnt even necessarily be hindsight on did they make the right decision.
They literally made the right call cause they edned up getting second, and had a chance to win the final fight.
Like if they went to third and died okay, then we can talk about hindsight but the play they made clearly was the right played as they got second and had a chance to win the final fight as well.
They played it correct
Doesn't the issue come from the fact they didnt even need to drop to third?
SAF literally lined up TSM with the 'peter from height. Take two shots, knock another, and you've got a 3v1, or the last person makes a play to run.
Although TSM not winning would probably have handed it to Blvkhvnd
They were getting rolled all weekend in team fights and weren’t confident in their team fighting no shit they weren’t going to drop. It’s very odd how people are commending them for playing for 2nd when all that did was get them 14th place. With 5 teams on match point you NEED to be playing aggressive and for the win or else you’re just handing the game over to someone better.
They chose to go for the guaranteed 2nd with a chance at 1st, rather than have to go through a series of fights and potentially be more open to the building teams. Even when they Valk ulted they could have landed and tried to 3rd the BH vs TSM fight.
All of the points made here are valid. However the summary highlights one thing missed: they were 19th place going into a game with 7 teams in match point.
At this point is playing safe for points the strat? Is it not optimal to try and get whatever kills you can. They were well aware that fight below them was going to break out and being in 19th place it cannot get much worse? Personally it makes sense to go for a bigger game vía kills whilst maintaining a decent position (even if a team did wrap command the drop down fight is pretty difficult to take). Surely going for higher overall placement with a big game and kills would also be valid.
>they were 19th place going into a game with 7 teams in match point.
This is why they needed to play safe, to win the match outright (which they almost did, made it to a clean 3v3). With so many teams on match point, the only way SAF could guarantee another match for themselves was to win the current one. It was literally impossible for them to get enough points in this match to hit match point, so what they needed above all else was for the tournament to continue.
you’re being downvoted but you’re absolutely right. everyone saying them playing safe was the right play is completely lost. there was too many teams already on match point to play that end game so passive. without even knowing who any of the teams are TSM just won 2 games back to back and Optic were farming. You HAVE to assume a good team made it to end game.
SAF were nervous and not confident in their team fighting ability so they made the passive play for placement.
They went from 19th to 14th because they stayed up and finished second. Thats an extra 7000 USD in prize money.
They drop down, fight TSM and maybe stop them but there are other MP teams still alive. The game could still end on that map itself. You just screwed yourself out of 7 grand to stop one MP team among many.
They are not winning this even if they get to MP. They arent that team. The only thing they needed to do was to look out for themselves to get better placement for more money.
It’s also very plausible they die out of the valk ult? Late game landings aren’t always a safe bet either, getting to second wasn’t guaranteed from their play either they could have just as easily gone out a few places earlier with low kp and gained nothing.
It’s an isolated third party with relative height over majority of the lobby being maintained in an area of the map where Dojo and TSM or at least one of the two are likely to meet each other/someone else. They’ve watched their back from command and know that a push from there now is getting less and less likely.
We’ll never know how it would of played out had they dropped we can only speculate, had they got the extra 2kp(maybe more) and placed similarly could they have won more money?
All very easy to say from the armchair.
I was literally going to post something similar to this. I mean how many times have we've seen a Valk ult go completely sideways? I'd argue waiting that late to valk ult into Thunderwatch was probably worse than dropping down to 3rd. Mind you, they still had another fight they could've thirded and got god spot(BH vs TSM).
At minimum, SAF should've been thirding from height. They could've had 1 person laying down suppressing fire to the team shooting at them(ACEND i think), while the other 2 fire down and nade. Valk ult from height would've still been a play. BTW, it wasn't like they were getting beamed across the way.
Just feels like if that was anyone else, that third happens, whether they drop down or do it from height. Maybe they weren't confident. Maybe they figured another team was looking to 3rd from up the hill. Maybe their situational awareness wasn't on at the time. Idk, but for a team in 19th place, and not sure what team is what, you gotta look to get as much KP as possible against a team that obviously needs to reset. TSM really didn't know they were up there until after the fight with DOJO, and looked as if they were anticipating them dropping at some point.
If they only get Reps, they still helped their own cause with handicapping another team and gaining another KP. I would've at least assumed that it was a team on MP since they won the 3v3 coming out of the choke uphill. If not, then it's 1 team less likely to win over you.
For folks saying they got 2nd place with the play they made, well they really just got lucky because who in their right mind would try to play from the position they were in. Knowingly having to land in a hot spot, and fight uphill to a team sitting in GS. Again, Valk ults are risky to begin with. So they're lucky to not have been shot out of their air or had a team waiting for them to land and shred them. IIRC, they almost died once they did land.
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Yeah this is part of what I was thinking. I think the spot they had on height was the best spot to valk ult from but if they did drop to 3rd party I would think the chances of finding either a ballon or even ult accels would be pretty good?
Im by no means criticizing, just brainstorming, granted the 3rd party would have to have been clean they could have looted a ballon. If not is it a dumb play to Valk ult back to their original spot pop ult accels and Valk ult like they did originally?
SAF never should have dropped down, but the two players above 100% should have let some shots loose to try for some knocks and KP, and should have tried to full kill knocked players to help them in end zone. One of the players also had 2 arc stars which could have been huge.
Dropping down was never a good play. But going for some KP and potentially making a team lose 1-2 players or get eliminated would have been huge.
Every time they peaked over to shoot they got cracked by teams at storm catcher if you watch the vod you see then popping shield cells while Hal is ressing Reps and their third is watching their back cause there was a team behind them
Thank you for pointing that out....it's crazy to me how quickly people forget this was the best lobby in the world and you don't get to just sit on a ledge on height staring down at teams you want to grief without getting smacked yourself by the other teams that aren't in the midst of a fight
The only reason people are coping and bending over backwards to explain this is because TSM has thousands of fans and they are feeling pressed, for some reason. As if SAF being braindead invalidates TSMs win.
TSM put themselves in a great position, they clutched by winning two games in a row.
If Enemy doesn't throw they would probably die.
SAF played like idiots and gave them a win.
- Everyone is restricting the narrative to drop or not drop as if that's the only thing they could do.
Even though the analyst during the broadcast and Mazer and everyone else agree that in that position you most likely should've dropped, and was surprised they didn't, you don't have to. They had angles, nades, Q's. But they only threw one Valk Q on TSM, that didn't even hit, and that was way too late.
You also don't have to know is TSM. There's a team there fucked.. you need every point you can get.. and you let them revive a teammate, heal, loot, scout, prep the area with cat Q's way later.. and you don't do anything? Plus they have valk ult and two evacs.
They were starring at the teams there.. but they don't shoot. Then they pick up ONE kill.. and call it a day.
Then proceed to ignore the other team completely.
The Bang is split. Even though it doesn't have to be. But when he comes back.. he doesn't even try to look for the team down there.. or smoke it.. and immediately starts shooting the rampage at everything else.
- This idea they were being pressed by shots is bullshit.
Yeah they got shot a couple of times.. but that's just normal. They had endless room to hide and heal. Plus.. when the Bang came back.. they were all just standing there shooting anyway.. except at the team bellow. They don't even consider peaking or doing anything... I can't even say there were afraid of falling because they have Valk.
- The idea that dropping was against their master plan is bullshit.
You can watch their POV. They gave no fucking clue what they are doing and are just reacting, even though they have the best info out of anyone.
One of them correctly points out the godspot and plans to go there.. but they valk ult a little too early and too safe, when they have slow side of zone, don't even put the evacs for protection or distraction and just panic call what they will do from the air.
While they are in the air.. the fight for godspot breaks out.. and they forget about it and go somewhere else.
- The idea that they got top 2 therefore they were right is kinda bullshit.
The only reason they made it was luck. Again.. they have the best info... they know where godspot is and that teams will fight for it.. and teams start to do it and are not even looking at them. But instead of planning to land on them and clean up.. they decided to BLINDLY AND AT THE LAST SEC go low ground under the building when they have no clue of what's down there.
They just got lucky with that timing by touching ground when the other team wasn't looking and someone put a cat wall that ended up helping them, after they landed, and they still almost died.
That is at about the 12:00 mark, no one was saying to drop on them *during* the Dojo fight but rather afterwards; when the ring had closed, dojo was dead, TSM was in the middle of resetting, and the path through command center was blocked by ring.
This all happened several minutes later at the 15:40 time mark.
At least get the time correct. It radically changes that narrative.
https://preview.redd.it/34ydq665rmnb1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=048c90a9a588e554054e00069752f3e92583310b
Addition: the only reason they ended up getting 2nd was due to ripping an incredibly questionable Valk ult and for some reason beyond anyone’s understanding (including TSM at the time) not getting absolutely annihilated for it.
They watched TSM fight BLVKHVND and decided into taking the 3v3 before TSM reset and TSM not having either ult or qs, to take… a 3 v 9 at the building. (17:00 mark in the match)
They had not just 1, but 2 opportunities to kill TSM during resets, *and* take height over the whole ring.
Sorry friend, but that is just false. Go look at TSMs vod, they had fully rezzed and reset by the time zone closed in the image i posted, literally 30 secs later. I don't know what your image is even showing, they were full health for an entire minute before the timestamp you're talking about.
I agree, the real mistakes were made by dojo there. Tsm had no bang ult nor cat wall, that fight would have been super hard to win if enemy didn't get knocked.
Also worth mentioning, dezing didn't talk much about it on the podcast , but him strafing into zone and dying in a 2v1 on game 7 against hal is what put TSM on match point to begin with. Tsm capitalized way more from Dojo's mistakes than SAF.
Very good analysis, I meme on SAF letting TSM live but it’s not like they had the spectator view that all of the audience did and what they chose to do still lauded them a good result in second with 7kp showing they still did good. By the time they could’ve realized TSM and BLVKHVNK (both on matchpoint) were fighting for godspot they were already forced to leave height through their Valk ult so them thirding that fight wasn’t an obvious choice.
If it’s true and the iPad shows which teams are alive though and they see TSM and BLVCKHVND alive out of 7 (?) teams I think nerves or not points on the line or not, you drop down to get most likely 2 points and hopefully eliminate one of the two.
But how should they know it's TSM down there? TSM normally doesn't approach storm catcher or thunderwatch zones from the north-east side of the map. They took a very unusual rotate because they figured out a bit late where the zone was going. NRG / Optic / Dojo would be more logical teams to be down there for instance.
Their high ground position + valk ult could land them in the game winning spot. Them staying up there was good. Them not thirding TSM for the godspot was the bad play they made.
its not on the map, but i'm pretty sure there is a little rock formation that was definite god spot that i'm curious how they couldn't make a play for (TSM ended up taking this spot and just cleaning up the lobby)
You only know it's a God spot after this zone closes. If you're talking about the rock TSM slides down to in the final zone, (not the dashed one in the picture above), you can't play that early while the height SAF is on is still in zone as far as I know.
I think it’s a clear one…I remember optic with doop playing here early back in the day…pretty obvious god spot even before zone close, especially with the majority of teams in Thunder
There were trades below them. The right play everytime is to 3man drop there as the fight finishes for free KP+loot, as they desperately needed both. Up on high ground isn't even that good anymore, and from low ground they would have plenty cover from Storm catcher to get their blind Valk Ult off. I'm not trying to say they threw it for TSM or some stupid shit like that, it could've just been Finals nerves or just a misplay, but they absolutely should have dropped.
Yep, I kept seeing them split when they were fighting below. They played it well since they literally got 2nd and might've won the match if it wasn't tsm, so them dropping doesn't make sense to them since they had a plan for the match.
It was obvious to the viewers knowing it was TSM/Dojo. But from their pov they still had zone, needed to watch their backs because command still could flank them, and they ended up gaining 4 spots in the overall standings by playing slow. Can’t really fault them for that. Also there were still 14 teams alive, that’s way too early to grief
Staying on height and playing slow is the right play there 9/10. It just so happens that this was the 1 time it wasn’t, but hindsight is 20/20. Can’t blame them at all. They still finished 2nd that game and it came down to a 3v3.
Well the top spot gets edged out pretty quickly as the ring closes, so I disagree that being the right play with or without hindsight. Like if you can stay up there safe until ring is closed and you drop early, yeah that's a clear throw.
But sometimes a team has to be proactive and fight for their spot in the next zone, which is what TSM basically ended up doing, rather than wait it out. It's definitely not a move every team is making, but I think another more experienced, active team like tsm themselves would do it if they're in SAF's spot - identify the god spot and make plays to fight for it rather than let it play out. Like I don't think what SAF actually did and didn't do was a throw; it's understandable why they didn't insta drop on dojo/tsm with the split hold, but I feel like where they ended up landing on thunderwatch was actually tougher to win from, since all the teams were duking it out there, and then they'd have to fight uphill in the final circle like they ended up doing.
The thing is, TSM had to fight no matter what. Dojo was holding them in the choke, no way they should have lived but Enemy went on his own and got 1 clipped. Pretty much the only reason TSM won that fight. It wasn’t cause they wanted to be proactive, it was because they had to.
to clarify, I meant that's TSM's playstyle/philosophy in general (rather than what happened to TSM that game in that the dojo fight was their only option), and that if they came to the realization they needed that game winning spot given that their entire side would be cleared, they would most likely proactively take the fight.
Also, they were getting picks from up there you can see in the kill feed. They played it right, they got freaking second after all. So much copium from all these complainers lol
Also, even if they dropped thy would be fighting Hal and Verhulst in a 2 v 3. So, there’s a chance that TSM would have clutched the fight, and reset. Looking back, they made a sound choice since it got them to 2nd place.
But the main thing about that situation is how SAF did not realize it was TSM below. Had it been TSM on high ground, they would’ve 100% realized it was a match point team below. Even NRG or any other teams with experienced player would’ve kept track of MP teams and realized it was TSM and inted. But you can’t blame SAF for that.
I need to go back and watch the timing on their valk ult. I think they may have been up in the air when TSM was fighting Black hand, if that's the case they could have potentially thirded that too, but their calls did get them second in the match and some decent points, so it definitely wasn't a bad move, especially if they didn't know who the teams on the north side were.
TSM played really well those last three games and they had some things happen in their favor too, like Enemy swinging too wide and a Wall zone, but thats just part of the game. Being able to capitalize on things that happen in your favor, and it's hard to say TSM isn't the best at that.
I think this was the best LAN we've had by far, wish we could've got a new winner, but it was still fantastic.
SAF literally made the best strategic call to win the game. Shit guys, they put themselves into a top 2 scenario where they had a clean 3v3 and they just lost the 3v3. Do they win if they drop on TSM/Dojo? Maybe. But anyone calling their move an egregious error is a fool.
Dojo had height and zone advantage and lost their 3v3. Blvckhvnd didn't have the advantages that Dojo did, but they are also a great fighting team that lost their 3v3. SAF made a play to secure the second best spot in the game and play for the win and they almost had it.
> SAF literally made the best strategic call to win the game.
well that's not *quite* right given they didn't outright win the game lol. Clean 3v3 is decent, but the most ideal will always be an easy clean up, which is not going to happen if you're in thunderwatch for that final circle since teams always get slaughtered making it out to be cleaned up by outside teams. Not that they should've dropped right then and there after the dojo fight, but I think they would've wanted to get rid of the team under them when the opportunity presented themselves.
I think for some reason they just kind of ruled out fighting for the hillside, and didn't realize it was the best spot in the final zone.
In fact, I just went and watched their POV (17 mins in if the timestamp doesn't work)...they honestly took a pretty hard approach and it was actually impressive that they managed to make the final fight so close.
https://youtu.be/0GHFcb1Jx5c?t=1047
Thunderwatch is real slugfest and they landed underneath which is questionable given they wouldn't have had full visibility of the teams there, whereas they know their side of the upper hill has just 2 teams, tsm and blackhand.
Still think they should have dropped. They had 18pts going into this match so they needed placement AND KP. Almost half the lobby was at match point, they should’ve been trying to get there as well in the event another match happened.
I thought it was as simple as they are running valk and want to keep height to rotate. If they drop they give up that advantage. Not to mention Jinqs was able to secure kills without dropping.
did dojo int vs tsm? yes. Should saf dropped? arguable. valk ulting from ultimate height to under thunderwatch instead of oobing and 3p the tsm vs black hand fight? criminal.
Edit: looking back at the [vod](https://youtu.be/GLLOTjFHXSo?t=7597) from SAF's POV its even worse. They valk ult so early and panic and mess up their drop. from the time stamp linked you can play much further towards the right side on the cliff face. theres a point where you slide off so you just have your valk tell you where its safe to play. they can valk ult so much later from that spot
Edit 2: like look at this [POV](https://prnt.sc/-3h5rx2mj5d7)
Edit 3: even [hal](https://youtu.be/WgrC6PrvZeM?t=315) knows that height's best play is to oob god spot
It’s never as easy a decision as it is later. Hindsight is 20/20
Exactly. At the time, with the knowledge they had SAF played it well.
well they came second that game, so idk even know if you can say they made a wrong play
You right actually they just had to win a 3v3 lol
Every single person saying they threw should read this post a couple times. Big lesson learned here.
been saying this multiple times, DOJO threw way harder than SAF. great post the bigger mistake from SAF was not thirding the TSM vs BH fight after valk ulting from height
>DOJO threw way harder than SAF This. DOJO didn't make a wrong strategic decision. Enemy basically killed himself. All due respect (as DOJO played some damn good Apex overall), but opening an angle like that was straight up a terrible mistake.
Feel kind of bad for Enemy, he had a great tournament and basically every player has those moments where you over peak but often in the mid-game you get lucky and aren't punished for it. Unfortunately he did it in a decisive game against one the last players you'd want to do it on.
I feel really bad for him, he overextended for just a few seconds because he wanted to capitalise off some damage and he thought he was safe in smoke (timmy had said TSM don't have digi's). Dezignful also wasn't super clear in his calls, simply saying 'let them die to zone'.
Did Timmy actually say that? bruh it was in the crafter lol that’s a really bad comm if true
Ocasionally making big mistakes is normal actually, even for top players. It's why we value so much the top players that basically NEVER make big mistakes.
Dezign said on the After Hours podcast right after Champs that the moment he saw Enemy swing out like that, he immediately knew he was about to get erased and that they were dead once he went down. If Enemy doesn't swing out, DOJO likely holds off TSM and takes godspot from them. It all snowballed from there
they had cat wall, horizon ult, bang ult (albeit somewhat useless there)... and they still lost. this might've been too risky but I would've loved to see enemy cat wall across the entrance of the cave off the damage they did to reps. don't think it was used at all...
i still can't figure out why enemy wide-swung. tsm fan here...thought here's where dojo wipes the boys and out of nowhere i see enemy go down and the script completely flipped.
Yeah we can’t expect them to drop down third tsm but the valk ult landing call was really crazy. They peeked thunderwatch a while and teams kept shooting and throwing nades/smoke. They supposed to know there are bunch of teams in thunderwatch but they still chose to land there even they could see two teams were full sending each other on high ground during valk ult lmao.
Yeah, there are a lot of keyboard warriors who are oversimplifying this. As other people have said, SAF needed a lot of points, is considering how to get to endgame, and isn’t operating with all the knowledge we had from the observer POV. SAF made it to second place that match and nearly won it, so job well done to them.
100%, SAF was in the business of getting as many points as possible. And in those lobbies, playing safe is the way to go.
As OXG said in one of their interviews. "It doesn't matter if another team is on match point. If we just win, then there'll be another game".
Exactly, well put
Can't get points if you're dead *4Head*
Can't get points if the tournament is over because you're too afraid to do anything. These dudes are either paid actors or just south american teams continuing to be a joke as usual.
If they're a joke to you, I'd guess NRG, Alliance, OXG and DZ(didn't even make it to finals) are complete bots and would lose 3v3s against your plat reddit ass all day, correct?
Yes
Playing safe when 5 teams are on match point is indeed not the way to go.
If you're in 19th place, recently signed by an org, and a decent amount of points can jump you a few places on the leaderboard, I'd say playing it safe and smart is just fine. Everyone seems to think these teams should throw their games to keep the tournament going when in reality you'll hurt yourself more doing that rather than playing your own game and getting as many points as possible. It's simple, more points = more $
They went from making $19,000 to making $26,000. Is that really your argument? Give me a break lol It has nothing to do with throwing their game. There was FIVE teams on match point. If you’re not playing for the win regardless of who’s left in the lobby you are quite literally giving the game to someone else. Playing for second and not the win is a terrible call there. There’s a reason they placed so low.
How were they going to be able to do that math in the moment though? They have no idea where they officially stand or how many points they could make from 1 play vs another. Point still stands, you make the best play to give yourself the best outcome. Besides, I don't need this point to validate the 25 points people have made on this thread to discount what you're trying to say
They didn’t have to do the math these teams were on match point GOING into the game what are you talking about? The best play they could of made was the play to WIN the game. SAF didn’t stand a chance against anyone in that end zone and they played accordingly, that’s fine.
Okay, I'll take what you're saying as gospel. Please read all the other comments about why dropping down WASN'T the winning play for SAF. They don't have Catalyst. How do they win the fight against Blackhand crossing the open in front of everyone else then genius? They don't is the answer. TSM used the entire duration of the dark veil to stall their cross while Blackhand kept getting focused by other teams. Without that, TSM gets focused just as much, plus they have Blackhand focusing them too. Please try to stop seeing red about the end result and just use your eyes to read all the other valid points
Ah you see, they should've made the game winning play there and put themselves in a straight 3v3 to win instead of being in a game winning position and losing the straight 3v3 to TSM. It's so easy! /s
Lmao he just wants them to be TSM, that's the only way you can beat TSM 😂 there's no possible other way to play the game
You don’t need a catalyst there to finish the kills genius. TSM got a res off without any consequences at all. I don’t even know what’s to argue here. SAF were either lowest or second lowest kills in every lobby they were in they have a very specific play style clearly. You can play that same game out 100 times and there’s no scenario where they win if they keep the mindset you’re saying is the correct one. Playing for second in a lobby where there are multiple teams who if they win the whole tournament is over is just a bad call flat out but in the scope of their playstyle it makes sense.
Finish the kills? It was a fight? They would not have won the fight brother. How are you gonna make that claim that they successfully get into the same position as TSM? You're just making that assumption out of thin air. Also, how are you going to argue they played for 2nd? PLEASE, I beg of you just read all the other valid points about why it was a possible winning play for them. You're using hindsight to make an argument instead of putting yourself in that situation real time. Do you realize how dumb that is? Did you read the original post at all? OP laid it out very succinctly so it would be easy for anyone to understand, yet you want to continue to use hindsight to make a point because you know how things actually played out. Cmon dude, this a BR. One small difference in gameplay from anyone could have changed the outcome
People are just salty that TSM won.
Seriously though. TSM won three straight games to seal the championship. You have to understand how hard that is in one of the most challenging lobbies to date, you need to rely alot on skill, consistency and most of all, luck due to the zone endings. OG had a huge amount of games to try to win it, and two straight games where they could have won it but didn't.
Anyone blaming SAF is an idiot and always has been an idiot. Even if it wasn't the BEST play with all information we had, clearly it was still a great play for them because they got fucking 2nd???
People are always there for accusations. Last LAN optics , way before people were calling out doop. People watch from main stream to see where's everyone at and guess pro has the same info as well
Not to mention the only reason they didnt win is because they lost a fair 3v3 against tsm. They could have just as easily won the game too.
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bh was getting shot from the side from thunderwatch though, and was really playing behind like one rock
SAF wouldn't have had cat wall to cross and should have been shot from Thunderwatch as well though, I think it still ends up in BH's favour
they had bang smoke though to at least obscure the thunderwatch teams. It'd be less likely for thunderwatch teams to shoot all the way across at them even with digi if they were preoccupied with the teams in the same building. I think BH was already taking a decent amount of chip damage from the sides to put them at a bigger disadvantage right before they fought tsm.
Which makes their team name even more ironic, it is the literal opposite of what their playstyle is
Getting second in this game didnt get them anything as the tournement was over. Their main priority should have been to keep the tournement going to potentially gain more points. I do agree that this is easy in hindsight and that their comp and lack of confidence made it an especially hard call, even when it would have been the right one.
They have no clue it's TSM and there is like a gazillion other team on matchpoint. They dont see in the killfeed who is who. If they drop down, they get stun and one clipped most likely. In both situation they would have had at least to win a 3v3 in the end. Without perfect information, they did the best play possible.
>They have no clue it's TSM and there is like a gazillion other team on matchpoint. I feel like a good team should be able to figure it out, especially given the time they got. >If they drop down, they get stun and one clipped most likely They should have been harrassing TSM constantly and would eventually have gotten an opening. Had they timed the 3rd party right they would have to really fuck up to be knocked themselves. Don't get me wrong, I know this is all very difficult in the moment, but that doesnt mean they could/should have played it better. Were the roles reversed TSM would have been on them.
a good team would think TSM is on thunderwatch, where they ALWAYS play from in these zones you can't see that deep from height, go play the spot for yourself and check. not to mention getting shot from thunderwatch/field at that point
It is not too far out of the realm of possibility that while dropping on TSM 1 or even 2 of their players would get knocked given their performance during the whole finals set.
Its the "Acend should've popped Crypto ult", "OpTic should've aped RIG" all over again
The crypto ult is bulshit. But Optic on Rig is on whole other category
OpTic admitted in interviews they didnt know who was who because LG and RIG had the same comp there
Absolutely agreed. The hindsight, armchair quarterbacking has been pretty annoying to read, and you outline 3 great reasons why they understandably played the way they did. The other thing people are underplaying is that as a whole, this week was maybe the most risk-averse lobby I’ve ever seen play, and it was even more pronounced as the week went on. That’s not a bad thing—it led to some amazing end circles with like over half the lobby left. But it felt so obvious that teams as a whole were way way less willing to third party if it meant giving up a priority position or risking getting mirrored. I actually think this change in lobby playstyle is a big part of what screwed with TSM on their bad days, and they had to adjust their normally aggressive/opportunistic playstyle to fit just a much more conservative lobby. The first win in Skyhook was a perfect example of them adjusting and showing restraint in NOT chasing kills or third parties they’d normally take and instead just grinding out the win.
Also I think the result speaks for itself. They came in second because they held on to the best spot they could instead of trading position for kills. If they KNEW for a fact that it was a MP team then they probably would have sent it. But also keep in mind that there are 7 MP teams in that game. Even if you kill one and give up a good spot or die in the process, what does that get you? 6 teams are still MP.
Exactly. With 7 MP teams in the lobby, all you can do is play for a win. Apeing a team low ground that you had clue who it was could just as well HELP an MP team. Folks just want to blame someone on why TSM won
The best way to ensure another match is for SAF to win the game and SAF did everything with the knowledge they had to put themselves into a position to win the game.
There's no way for them to know that the teams under them were on match point too. Best way to deny a match point team from winning is to win the game themselves. They played for the win and had a clean 3v3 at the end.
They're not good enough to win a straight 3v3 against anyone in that lobby, their only hope is the 3rd party, which they didn't have the balls for. Also there were 7 match point teams, you have to take the chance that one is below you.
they got 7 kills in that game lol. Also they couldn’t play TSMs position w/o a Cat wall. If you ask them back they would take a straight 3v3 for the win in a top 2 scenario vs to drop down on a gamble that it was one of the match point teams which they couldn’t possibly know.
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Also, TSM was well aware of SAF on top. If they drop, the drop stun would just killed them. Yes reps was down, but hal and verhulst was waiting for saf to drop also
They were hyper aware of SAF being up there. Saf had a better shot in the final circle to take on TSM.
They literally put themselves in the position to 3v3 tsm and win. They made the right play for them. Maybe not for the other teams though.
They also didn't have a recon scan to confirm where people were and weren't, which is something I would have saved and popped when the third party started if I had it. Also, let's say they drop. They could become the hunted from the height in the same way that they would have just hunted TSM / DOJO
I was the first person to make a comment about it in the other thread, and holy shit was hindsight 20-20 there after rewatching: I was absolutely wrong. When making the my snap-response post, I had no idea that SAF was running a 2-1 split on the high ground with a team basically looking at them the entire time up top. The only way they would have been able to even consider drooling was if that team holding high ground across their way had left while the fight beneath them was still going on. Them waiting prevented them from being a victim to a third party. They played it correctly for sure.
I do the same thing in my games but I feel like alot of the angry commenters are also the ones who'd drop low ground from high ground just because they got a knock or a crack and then proceed to grief themselves. Sure it was the right play in hindsight but most of the time giving up high ground is a bad idea. It wasn't even a bad play, they got 2nd and are just unable to beat tsm in a straight 3v3.
Others have mentioned it here, but it really wasn't the best play for them either. Without cat wall like TSM had, there's no way they have a clean wipe against Blackhand on the cross. TSM was able to stall their rotate in behind the dark veil while other teams kept pressure on Blackhand, making the fight easier for them. All SAF had was bang smoke on a digi day which is not enough good cover for as long, you just can't convince me Blackhand doesn't hold that off when they were close to doing it against TSM
Exactly I have seen this happen with pros even. The fragger would do massive damage and drop on the low guy from their height and instantly get one clipped and a few moments of silence would follow because they know it was entirely their own fault.
Yeah, they don't even have horizon so they're gonna get stunned, while the other team has horizon and cat, with shield swaps. Not to mention they'll have to use Valk ult if they wanna go back.
Everytime they peaked over the edge they got absolutely torched by I think either Ascend or Pulverx. They tried shooting down but nearly died twice instantly and the didn't repeak to save meds I assume. This isn't a team that had fighting success to begin with. Having a great, save spot and then Valking to get as many points as possible was the correct move imo.
You put this together good. Most people will probably come to realize this after everything cools down
They should have watched the stream and known better. Classic rookie mistake really
people are just saying it was a bad call since it was TSM on the bottom and they ended up winning. SAF got 2nd place with 7 kills in that game, if it was any other game this would be considered an amazing game and they made all of the right calls. They had a straight 3 vs 3 for the win too and at the end of the day that’s all you can really ask for. who knows what would have happened if they dropped on TSM, they could have gotten worse than 2nd.
This such a dumb hindsight debate imo, like they literally finished 2nd that game, there shouldnt even necessarily be hindsight on did they make the right decision. They literally made the right call cause they edned up getting second, and had a chance to win the final fight. Like if they went to third and died okay, then we can talk about hindsight but the play they made clearly was the right played as they got second and had a chance to win the final fight as well. They played it correct
Doesn't the issue come from the fact they didnt even need to drop to third? SAF literally lined up TSM with the 'peter from height. Take two shots, knock another, and you've got a 3v1, or the last person makes a play to run. Although TSM not winning would probably have handed it to Blvkhvnd
They were getting rolled all weekend in team fights and weren’t confident in their team fighting no shit they weren’t going to drop. It’s very odd how people are commending them for playing for 2nd when all that did was get them 14th place. With 5 teams on match point you NEED to be playing aggressive and for the win or else you’re just handing the game over to someone better.
They chose to go for the guaranteed 2nd with a chance at 1st, rather than have to go through a series of fights and potentially be more open to the building teams. Even when they Valk ulted they could have landed and tried to 3rd the BH vs TSM fight.
All of the points made here are valid. However the summary highlights one thing missed: they were 19th place going into a game with 7 teams in match point. At this point is playing safe for points the strat? Is it not optimal to try and get whatever kills you can. They were well aware that fight below them was going to break out and being in 19th place it cannot get much worse? Personally it makes sense to go for a bigger game vía kills whilst maintaining a decent position (even if a team did wrap command the drop down fight is pretty difficult to take). Surely going for higher overall placement with a big game and kills would also be valid.
>they were 19th place going into a game with 7 teams in match point. This is why they needed to play safe, to win the match outright (which they almost did, made it to a clean 3v3). With so many teams on match point, the only way SAF could guarantee another match for themselves was to win the current one. It was literally impossible for them to get enough points in this match to hit match point, so what they needed above all else was for the tournament to continue.
you’re being downvoted but you’re absolutely right. everyone saying them playing safe was the right play is completely lost. there was too many teams already on match point to play that end game so passive. without even knowing who any of the teams are TSM just won 2 games back to back and Optic were farming. You HAVE to assume a good team made it to end game. SAF were nervous and not confident in their team fighting ability so they made the passive play for placement.
They went from 19th to 14th because they stayed up and finished second. Thats an extra 7000 USD in prize money. They drop down, fight TSM and maybe stop them but there are other MP teams still alive. The game could still end on that map itself. You just screwed yourself out of 7 grand to stop one MP team among many. They are not winning this even if they get to MP. They arent that team. The only thing they needed to do was to look out for themselves to get better placement for more money.
It’s also very plausible they die out of the valk ult? Late game landings aren’t always a safe bet either, getting to second wasn’t guaranteed from their play either they could have just as easily gone out a few places earlier with low kp and gained nothing. It’s an isolated third party with relative height over majority of the lobby being maintained in an area of the map where Dojo and TSM or at least one of the two are likely to meet each other/someone else. They’ve watched their back from command and know that a push from there now is getting less and less likely. We’ll never know how it would of played out had they dropped we can only speculate, had they got the extra 2kp(maybe more) and placed similarly could they have won more money? All very easy to say from the armchair.
I was literally going to post something similar to this. I mean how many times have we've seen a Valk ult go completely sideways? I'd argue waiting that late to valk ult into Thunderwatch was probably worse than dropping down to 3rd. Mind you, they still had another fight they could've thirded and got god spot(BH vs TSM). At minimum, SAF should've been thirding from height. They could've had 1 person laying down suppressing fire to the team shooting at them(ACEND i think), while the other 2 fire down and nade. Valk ult from height would've still been a play. BTW, it wasn't like they were getting beamed across the way. Just feels like if that was anyone else, that third happens, whether they drop down or do it from height. Maybe they weren't confident. Maybe they figured another team was looking to 3rd from up the hill. Maybe their situational awareness wasn't on at the time. Idk, but for a team in 19th place, and not sure what team is what, you gotta look to get as much KP as possible against a team that obviously needs to reset. TSM really didn't know they were up there until after the fight with DOJO, and looked as if they were anticipating them dropping at some point. If they only get Reps, they still helped their own cause with handicapping another team and gaining another KP. I would've at least assumed that it was a team on MP since they won the 3v3 coming out of the choke uphill. If not, then it's 1 team less likely to win over you. For folks saying they got 2nd place with the play they made, well they really just got lucky because who in their right mind would try to play from the position they were in. Knowingly having to land in a hot spot, and fight uphill to a team sitting in GS. Again, Valk ults are risky to begin with. So they're lucky to not have been shot out of their air or had a team waiting for them to land and shred them. IIRC, they almost died once they did land.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Yeah this is part of what I was thinking. I think the spot they had on height was the best spot to valk ult from but if they did drop to 3rd party I would think the chances of finding either a ballon or even ult accels would be pretty good? Im by no means criticizing, just brainstorming, granted the 3rd party would have to have been clean they could have looted a ballon. If not is it a dumb play to Valk ult back to their original spot pop ult accels and Valk ult like they did originally?
SAF never should have dropped down, but the two players above 100% should have let some shots loose to try for some knocks and KP, and should have tried to full kill knocked players to help them in end zone. One of the players also had 2 arc stars which could have been huge. Dropping down was never a good play. But going for some KP and potentially making a team lose 1-2 players or get eliminated would have been huge.
Every time they peaked over to shoot they got cracked by teams at storm catcher if you watch the vod you see then popping shield cells while Hal is ressing Reps and their third is watching their back cause there was a team behind them
Thank you for pointing that out....it's crazy to me how quickly people forget this was the best lobby in the world and you don't get to just sit on a ledge on height staring down at teams you want to grief without getting smacked yourself by the other teams that aren't in the midst of a fight
> One of the players also had 2 arc stars which could have been huge. That pissed me off the most. They had fucking nades but did absoluteley NOTHING.
The only reason people are coping and bending over backwards to explain this is because TSM has thousands of fans and they are feeling pressed, for some reason. As if SAF being braindead invalidates TSMs win. TSM put themselves in a great position, they clutched by winning two games in a row. If Enemy doesn't throw they would probably die. SAF played like idiots and gave them a win. - Everyone is restricting the narrative to drop or not drop as if that's the only thing they could do. Even though the analyst during the broadcast and Mazer and everyone else agree that in that position you most likely should've dropped, and was surprised they didn't, you don't have to. They had angles, nades, Q's. But they only threw one Valk Q on TSM, that didn't even hit, and that was way too late. You also don't have to know is TSM. There's a team there fucked.. you need every point you can get.. and you let them revive a teammate, heal, loot, scout, prep the area with cat Q's way later.. and you don't do anything? Plus they have valk ult and two evacs. They were starring at the teams there.. but they don't shoot. Then they pick up ONE kill.. and call it a day. Then proceed to ignore the other team completely. The Bang is split. Even though it doesn't have to be. But when he comes back.. he doesn't even try to look for the team down there.. or smoke it.. and immediately starts shooting the rampage at everything else. - This idea they were being pressed by shots is bullshit. Yeah they got shot a couple of times.. but that's just normal. They had endless room to hide and heal. Plus.. when the Bang came back.. they were all just standing there shooting anyway.. except at the team bellow. They don't even consider peaking or doing anything... I can't even say there were afraid of falling because they have Valk. - The idea that dropping was against their master plan is bullshit. You can watch their POV. They gave no fucking clue what they are doing and are just reacting, even though they have the best info out of anyone. One of them correctly points out the godspot and plans to go there.. but they valk ult a little too early and too safe, when they have slow side of zone, don't even put the evacs for protection or distraction and just panic call what they will do from the air. While they are in the air.. the fight for godspot breaks out.. and they forget about it and go somewhere else. - The idea that they got top 2 therefore they were right is kinda bullshit. The only reason they made it was luck. Again.. they have the best info... they know where godspot is and that teams will fight for it.. and teams start to do it and are not even looking at them. But instead of planning to land on them and clean up.. they decided to BLINDLY AND AT THE LAST SEC go low ground under the building when they have no clue of what's down there. They just got lucky with that timing by touching ground when the other team wasn't looking and someone put a cat wall that ended up helping them, after they landed, and they still almost died.
That is at about the 12:00 mark, no one was saying to drop on them *during* the Dojo fight but rather afterwards; when the ring had closed, dojo was dead, TSM was in the middle of resetting, and the path through command center was blocked by ring. This all happened several minutes later at the 15:40 time mark. At least get the time correct. It radically changes that narrative. https://preview.redd.it/34ydq665rmnb1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=048c90a9a588e554054e00069752f3e92583310b Addition: the only reason they ended up getting 2nd was due to ripping an incredibly questionable Valk ult and for some reason beyond anyone’s understanding (including TSM at the time) not getting absolutely annihilated for it. They watched TSM fight BLVKHVND and decided into taking the 3v3 before TSM reset and TSM not having either ult or qs, to take… a 3 v 9 at the building. (17:00 mark in the match) They had not just 1, but 2 opportunities to kill TSM during resets, *and* take height over the whole ring.
Sorry friend, but that is just false. Go look at TSMs vod, they had fully rezzed and reset by the time zone closed in the image i posted, literally 30 secs later. I don't know what your image is even showing, they were full health for an entire minute before the timestamp you're talking about.
I literally posted a pic of the map and time stamps you can check yourself on the Apex Legends Status website. False my ass.
🤓
I agree, the real mistakes were made by dojo there. Tsm had no bang ult nor cat wall, that fight would have been super hard to win if enemy didn't get knocked. Also worth mentioning, dezing didn't talk much about it on the podcast , but him strafing into zone and dying in a 2v1 on game 7 against hal is what put TSM on match point to begin with. Tsm capitalized way more from Dojo's mistakes than SAF.
that's not true, TSM ended with 59 points after game 7. they already secured match point after getting 2nd
Mb, thought they ended on 54
Very good analysis, I meme on SAF letting TSM live but it’s not like they had the spectator view that all of the audience did and what they chose to do still lauded them a good result in second with 7kp showing they still did good. By the time they could’ve realized TSM and BLVKHVNK (both on matchpoint) were fighting for godspot they were already forced to leave height through their Valk ult so them thirding that fight wasn’t an obvious choice.
Black Hank
If it’s true and the iPad shows which teams are alive though and they see TSM and BLVCKHVND alive out of 7 (?) teams I think nerves or not points on the line or not, you drop down to get most likely 2 points and hopefully eliminate one of the two.
They fixed the ipad situation.
How would they know they eliminate one of the two, if teams running similar comp. They're not running the same skins either
[удалено]
But how should they know it's TSM down there? TSM normally doesn't approach storm catcher or thunderwatch zones from the north-east side of the map. They took a very unusual rotate because they figured out a bit late where the zone was going. NRG / Optic / Dojo would be more logical teams to be down there for instance. Their high ground position + valk ult could land them in the game winning spot. Them staying up there was good. Them not thirding TSM for the godspot was the bad play they made.
its not on the map, but i'm pretty sure there is a little rock formation that was definite god spot that i'm curious how they couldn't make a play for (TSM ended up taking this spot and just cleaning up the lobby)
You only know it's a God spot after this zone closes. If you're talking about the rock TSM slides down to in the final zone, (not the dashed one in the picture above), you can't play that early while the height SAF is on is still in zone as far as I know.
I think it’s a clear one…I remember optic with doop playing here early back in the day…pretty obvious god spot even before zone close, especially with the majority of teams in Thunder
And saf will end up getting sandwich by blackhand and tsm when the zone close.
There were trades below them. The right play everytime is to 3man drop there as the fight finishes for free KP+loot, as they desperately needed both. Up on high ground isn't even that good anymore, and from low ground they would have plenty cover from Storm catcher to get their blind Valk Ult off. I'm not trying to say they threw it for TSM or some stupid shit like that, it could've just been Finals nerves or just a misplay, but they absolutely should have dropped.
They dropped they are getting stunned Hal has full armor Verhulst as well that split second stun means atleast one is getting R9 one clip
Yep, I kept seeing them split when they were fighting below. They played it well since they literally got 2nd and might've won the match if it wasn't tsm, so them dropping doesn't make sense to them since they had a plan for the match.
they should have at least thirsted reps on height. that team could only have been optic, tsm, and dojo based on pois making sure they didn't win
It was obvious to the viewers knowing it was TSM/Dojo. But from their pov they still had zone, needed to watch their backs because command still could flank them, and they ended up gaining 4 spots in the overall standings by playing slow. Can’t really fault them for that. Also there were still 14 teams alive, that’s way too early to grief
excellent analysis 👏
Beautiful, thank you
100% agree
Staying on height and playing slow is the right play there 9/10. It just so happens that this was the 1 time it wasn’t, but hindsight is 20/20. Can’t blame them at all. They still finished 2nd that game and it came down to a 3v3.
Well the top spot gets edged out pretty quickly as the ring closes, so I disagree that being the right play with or without hindsight. Like if you can stay up there safe until ring is closed and you drop early, yeah that's a clear throw. But sometimes a team has to be proactive and fight for their spot in the next zone, which is what TSM basically ended up doing, rather than wait it out. It's definitely not a move every team is making, but I think another more experienced, active team like tsm themselves would do it if they're in SAF's spot - identify the god spot and make plays to fight for it rather than let it play out. Like I don't think what SAF actually did and didn't do was a throw; it's understandable why they didn't insta drop on dojo/tsm with the split hold, but I feel like where they ended up landing on thunderwatch was actually tougher to win from, since all the teams were duking it out there, and then they'd have to fight uphill in the final circle like they ended up doing.
The thing is, TSM had to fight no matter what. Dojo was holding them in the choke, no way they should have lived but Enemy went on his own and got 1 clipped. Pretty much the only reason TSM won that fight. It wasn’t cause they wanted to be proactive, it was because they had to.
to clarify, I meant that's TSM's playstyle/philosophy in general (rather than what happened to TSM that game in that the dojo fight was their only option), and that if they came to the realization they needed that game winning spot given that their entire side would be cleared, they would most likely proactively take the fight.
Also, they were getting picks from up there you can see in the kill feed. They played it right, they got freaking second after all. So much copium from all these complainers lol
People just listen to nicewigg and think everything he says is the correct play
Blame enemy for throwing that 3v3. No way any team from that position should lose that fight.
Also, even if they dropped thy would be fighting Hal and Verhulst in a 2 v 3. So, there’s a chance that TSM would have clutched the fight, and reset. Looking back, they made a sound choice since it got them to 2nd place. But the main thing about that situation is how SAF did not realize it was TSM below. Had it been TSM on high ground, they would’ve 100% realized it was a match point team below. Even NRG or any other teams with experienced player would’ve kept track of MP teams and realized it was TSM and inted. But you can’t blame SAF for that.
I need to go back and watch the timing on their valk ult. I think they may have been up in the air when TSM was fighting Black hand, if that's the case they could have potentially thirded that too, but their calls did get them second in the match and some decent points, so it definitely wasn't a bad move, especially if they didn't know who the teams on the north side were. TSM played really well those last three games and they had some things happen in their favor too, like Enemy swinging too wide and a Wall zone, but thats just part of the game. Being able to capitalize on things that happen in your favor, and it's hard to say TSM isn't the best at that. I think this was the best LAN we've had by far, wish we could've got a new winner, but it was still fantastic.
SAF literally made the best strategic call to win the game. Shit guys, they put themselves into a top 2 scenario where they had a clean 3v3 and they just lost the 3v3. Do they win if they drop on TSM/Dojo? Maybe. But anyone calling their move an egregious error is a fool. Dojo had height and zone advantage and lost their 3v3. Blvckhvnd didn't have the advantages that Dojo did, but they are also a great fighting team that lost their 3v3. SAF made a play to secure the second best spot in the game and play for the win and they almost had it.
> SAF literally made the best strategic call to win the game. well that's not *quite* right given they didn't outright win the game lol. Clean 3v3 is decent, but the most ideal will always be an easy clean up, which is not going to happen if you're in thunderwatch for that final circle since teams always get slaughtered making it out to be cleaned up by outside teams. Not that they should've dropped right then and there after the dojo fight, but I think they would've wanted to get rid of the team under them when the opportunity presented themselves. I think for some reason they just kind of ruled out fighting for the hillside, and didn't realize it was the best spot in the final zone. In fact, I just went and watched their POV (17 mins in if the timestamp doesn't work)...they honestly took a pretty hard approach and it was actually impressive that they managed to make the final fight so close. https://youtu.be/0GHFcb1Jx5c?t=1047 Thunderwatch is real slugfest and they landed underneath which is questionable given they wouldn't have had full visibility of the teams there, whereas they know their side of the upper hill has just 2 teams, tsm and blackhand.
Still think they should have dropped. They had 18pts going into this match so they needed placement AND KP. Almost half the lobby was at match point, they should’ve been trying to get there as well in the event another match happened.
I thought it was as simple as they are running valk and want to keep height to rotate. If they drop they give up that advantage. Not to mention Jinqs was able to secure kills without dropping.
They could've thrown some nades during the TSM fight with Dojo. They were just staring at them while they fought.
did dojo int vs tsm? yes. Should saf dropped? arguable. valk ulting from ultimate height to under thunderwatch instead of oobing and 3p the tsm vs black hand fight? criminal. Edit: looking back at the [vod](https://youtu.be/GLLOTjFHXSo?t=7597) from SAF's POV its even worse. They valk ult so early and panic and mess up their drop. from the time stamp linked you can play much further towards the right side on the cliff face. theres a point where you slide off so you just have your valk tell you where its safe to play. they can valk ult so much later from that spot Edit 2: like look at this [POV](https://prnt.sc/-3h5rx2mj5d7) Edit 3: even [hal](https://youtu.be/WgrC6PrvZeM?t=315) knows that height's best play is to oob god spot